This string of posts is bound to give Japanophiles a case of heartburn:
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English Books on Korea... and More!
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Visit My Brother's Film Review Site
Plunge on Japan
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on May 12, 2006 at 1:00 pm, filed under East and Central Asia, Japan. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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39 Comments
THere’s someone who shoots from the hip.
Robert, do you think that reading the Weekly World News would give Americans a case of heartburn? I think it more likely they’d just have a chuckle or two. If this “plunge” character takes tabloid trash as gospel, he has lost whatever credibility he might have had.
These latest posts with this one. I had read a fascinating article by a sociologist in Japan concerned about the moral degredation that was taking place. This was one thing I studied years and years ago in college in a history course, how the moral degredation of a country preceeded its collapse. There were a lot of parallels between what I studied then and what seems to be happening now in Japan if not in such a large scale or as decadent.
Anyway, that is what prompted that first post. Then, boom, boom, boom, article after article discussing the moral decay of Japan. Really kind of shocked me.
The middle stuff you linked to, the email and the movie were just interesting tidbits. But, the last article is another one that should make people stop and think. Whenever you discuss Japan and the recent nationalistic movement there it is usually countered by folks saying Japan had learned from its past and that such a thing would never happen again. Unfortunately, this article shows the lie that is. How can the recent generations learn from the past if they don’t know the past?
Anyway, just a little more indepth on my current posting trend.
Dogbert, you have ‘pro-Japan’ sites posting on the article as well… I
Please don’t be such a naif.
If someone from say, Malaysia, who had never lived in the United States, much less even set foot in the country, suddenly decided to watch a Jerry Springer Show marathon on Star World and then came to the shocking realization that America is in decline, would anyone take him seriously? I would certainly hope not.
I don’t have any special love or hatred of Japan. I, like Matt, just want to point out that the site you got some of your “moral decline” salacious stories from is the equivalent of some of the U.S. tabloids with the same disregard for the truth. It simply weakens the credibility of the argument and you and Robert should know that.
However, here is a true “only in Japan” story that rivals any wacky things seen in Korea lately:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....YwN5bmNhdA
However, here is a true “only in Japan” story that rivals any wacky things seen in Korea lately:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....YwN5bmNhdA
oh my god! cancel civilization!!!
Inu Kami? “Dog God”?? That’s just weird. ‘Damn you, TV Tokyo! Feel the fury of my special technique: Dead Grandmother First Class Postage!”
I wonder if Japan has laws similar to the United States, which prohibit sending human remains through the postal system. Could be that someone is in big trouble.
Plunge got spanked in the comments section of Japundit. I ask him why he thinks a pornographic magazine is a good source to prove his theory of the moral decay of Japan. No answer was given.
Usually some people complain about a “moral decline” when talking about what’s on TV or in the newspapers. That assumes that our media is on the cutting edge of that decline or leading us there. But we know the role of the media is to attract viewership from amongst the people, and the best way to do that is to show the unusual, the non-conformist, the leading edge. Thus the media tends to stretch public morality to its logical extremes due to its very nature.
I would also suggest that one reason why there is so much criticism of nationalism in countries like Japan and
in the United States is that those countries, unlike some others like China and Korea, have a very loud group
of intellectuals who are willing (and sometimes eager) to criticize their own countries. Indeed, much of the
international criticism one hears of Japan is a recycling of criticism invented by Japanese. Overall, such freedom and willingness to criticize has definite beneficial effects. However, occasionally people make assumptions that the amount of criticism must be proportional to the degree of things worth criticizing.
Obviously, Plunge don’t live in Japan and he can’t even read Japanese. He has actually no clue, yet he is acting like he knows everything about Japan and Japanese people. It’s really annoying.
I rather like Plunge’s site, for the most part. However:
> This was one thing I studied years and years ago in college
> in a history course, how the moral degredation of a country preceeded its collapse.
Ugh. That must have been one bad history course. That nonsense about moral degredation leading to a civilization’s collapse has not been taken seriously by historians in decades.
<sarcasm> Oh, but it was all the buggery and bulimia which did in the Romans, don’t you know? <sarcasm&;
Herr Plunge seems to have lived so long in Korea that he’s adopted the natives’ hard-on for hating a Japan he actually knows precious little about.
That might say more about the decline of scholarship over the past several decades than problems with the theory itself.
> That might say more about the decline of scholarship
> over the past several decades than problems with the theory itself.
It might. But it does not. ‘Tis is silly idea… and one as old as civilization.
OK, I’ll bite.
Yes, it does.
I gave up reading two months ago.
Yes, it does.
Oh no it doesn’t!
Why don’t we put the childish “Duck season, rabbit season” thing aside? The fact is you don’t have an ounce of evidence to support the claim that “morality” had anything to do with the fall of the (Western) Roman Empire, whereas any modern historian worth his salt would point to factors like the westwards pressure of the Huns on the Germanic tribes, the oppressive nature of the Dominate in Gaul, which prompted the poor to welcome the Frankish invaders with open arms, the impact of a deadly bout of flu from China, which decimated the Roman population and economy, etc., etc. “Moral decadence” of the sort Plunge insists on waffling about had nothing to do with it, and the Christianized latter-day Empire was in any case a much more “moral” place than the Rome of Tiberius, Nero and Heliogabalus. To insist otherwise is merely to regurgitate half-digested Gibbon, beyond whose work historical scholarship has since moved considerably.
It isn’t as if the whole Japanese ‘immorality’ thing is anything new — at least nowadays, there are actual laws against the sorts of stuff these videos are purported to show (they’re probably staged, anyhow). Japan has a pretty long tradition of this sort of thing, really…. If moral decay causes empires to fall, Japan should have crumbled into anarchy several centuries ago. (Along with pretty much every major country, but we’re not pointing fingers here.)
My god. Japan must be teetering on the edge of moral degradation-induced collapse! We can probably push them over the edge if we send them Lindsay Lohan and Richard Simmons.
Actually, I would love for future textbooks to attribute the fall of Japan to Richard Simmons.
Actually, I would love for future textbooks to attribute the fall of Japan to Richard Simmons.
If there happened to be a fall of this country in this lifetime… this would be the most appropriate, by far.
I wonder if the Romans had such debates… Nah.
(For the record, I want to note that I did not start the “yes, it is; no, it isn’t debate.” Also, I was thinking more along the lines of Monty Python’s Argument skit than Elmer and Bugs.)
HK,
Oh no it doesn’t!
Oh, yes it does!!!
(And you can tell how serious I am because I used not one, but three exclamation points.)
I hope you are now assuming that life during the rise of Rome was sunshine and fishcakes. Granted, the Gallic civil wars in the first few centuries BC helped relieve pressure on Rome’s north so it could concentrate on defeating Carthage, but they were not exactly pansies, nor were Seubi or the Macedonians. There was always pressure on Rome’s borders. The only thing that changed was Rome’s ability to contain that pressure.
Rome’s economic decline was cause at least in part by the large-scale practice of ruling classes to put themselves above the polity. This resulted in excessive taxation and use of slave labor to fund their personal whims, be they staring at big piles of gold or buying fresh young boys and girls at the market. One result of that moral decline was the increased use of mercenaries to defend the empire, who were less inclined to be diligent in their work.
So, the influx of barbarians into Rome’s territory was a symptom of Rome’s decline rather than a cause.
BTW, I would also like to note that Gibbon blamed the Christians, along with the decline of civic virtue, for the fall of Rome. I’m glad that I am not the only one in this thread who has not read Gibbon’s books.
But this is a problem of misgovernance, not of the kind of “moral degredation” alluded to by Plunge. Who was sleeping with whom has nothing to do with designing an effective, low-burden tax system, something Rome never had in all its existence.
A better analysis of what happened was that Rome ran out of mercenaries to buy, as the Germanic tribes chose to settle within its borders themselves. At any rate, all of this analysis ignores the fact that the rise of a formidable adversary in the form of the Sassanian empire imposed new fiscal and military burdens on Rome which a state built on plunder and already near its productive limits was ill-prepared to withstand, whatever the tax system: if you’re interested in a recent analysis, take a look at Peter Heather’s “The Fall of the Roman Empire : A New History of Rome and the Barbarians.”
I’m afraid I’ll have to ruin your satisfaction a bit, then, as Gibbon was clearly a forerunner of Nietzsche in viewing Christianity as an otherworldly, “slave” morality which ruined men for action on this earth. The problem with Gibbon’s line of reasoning, as well as that of every other “moral degredation destroyed Rome” advocate, is that they fail to either admit let alone explain why the Eastern Roman Empire lasted for another 1000 years.
In summum, nations and empires don’t pass away because of panty-pullers, teenage promiscuity, or people sticking their willies where some Middle Eastern book of myths says they shouldn’t, whatever Plunge and anyone else may argue to the contrary, and all the zeal for Torah obedience in the world couldn’t save the Zealots from Tiberius’ morally decadent armies either. All Plunge’s rant about Japan’s moral “degredation” proves is that he hates the country - but we already knew that anyway.
I’ve seen a lot of criticism of Gibbon, some with merit, most though from self-enlightened yuppies who accomplish only two things with their rants: let us know they haven’t read Gibbon (or couldn’t follow him so they relied on secondary authors) and that they don’t grasp the meaning of “moral decadence” as Hans’ reference to “panty-pulling” would indicate.
“nations and empires don’t pass away because of panty-pullers, teenage promiscuity, or people sticking their willies where some Middle Eastern book of myths says they shouldn’t”
What a craven response to a serious problem. Perhaps you are defending such behavior? I don’t think so but it does sound like you’re downplaying its obscenity and its affect on society.
“The kind of moral degradation alluded to by Plunge” is just one manifestation of moral decline as described by Gibbon. In fact Gibbon’s understanding and use of the term “moral decline” was far detailed than mere sexual depravity, though that was part. A problem of mis-governance not one of moral degradation?? Are you kidding? Since when are the two mutually exclusive? They don’t have to be integrated but they certainly can and in this case Gibbon argued quite successfully that the decline in “mis-governance” and the decline on moral integrity were interdependent, spirally downward. While Gibbon had a few misconceptions throughout the writing of his work, most stemming from his class perspective he did what historians these days just don’t do: he worked. He labored intensively on gathering information and had a tremendous aptitude for filtering all these facts into a coherent picture. Historians in the last 100 or so years since Lord Acton have done precious little to advance the field of history. They want to theorize the world to death but can’t siphon through the enormous quantity of information that is “history” but they’ll pretend they can with trite little diatribes like the one above. And, if you’re going to use latin “in summum” at least use it correctly.
Meanwhile back to people who want to discuss real topics instead of diverting to schoolhouse debates I’ll be the first to say I’m a Japanophile. I love the people, culture, and, frankly, the history. I’ve spent a lot of time there and can’t wait till I can go back. But I’ll also admit there is something strange there that I can’t quite put my finger on - something between childish curiosity and unhealthy delight in the sufferings of others. Everybody’s heard the kind of stories that Plunge is talking about regardless of whether he dipped into the tabloids to find the stuff. Anyone who has spent time in Japan has seen the panty vending machines, advertisements for sex shows and “toon poon” that high schoolers cart around with them on the subways in plain view. I don’t know how to characterize it really and while I find it extremely disconcerting, I can’t see too many instances where it is hurting others. I could be wrong there and if I am we need to be looking at how to prevent that. But the thing about Japan is it is all out in the open. In that regard it seems a lot healthier than other countries like the US where our latent Victorianism, with a twist of voyeurism, makes for some pretty disturbed young people. Or Korea, for that matter, where the debauchery of Japan goes on to at least the same degree, just behind closed doors, and with the police’ consent.
Should Japan ever “collapse” we can debate the reason but for now perhaps Plunge, and everyone for that matter, can help clean up their own neighborhood wherever that might be.
Thus begins another vacuous, rage-filled rant from an ignoramus social conservative who brings no hard facts to the table, nor a single reference to any relevant scholarship, and yet who expects his ridiculous moral tantrum to be swallowed whole simply because he’s puffed up with anger, as if stupid generalizations about “historians” from someone who can’t name a single one himself were worth anything. Ho hum.
And here we catch Outraged of Tumbridge Wells passing off an urban legend as first-hand experience. It’s one thing to be a sanctimonious fool, but a liar as well …
Thus begins blustering rearguard action packed with petty insults. This is getting more like that Monty Python skit with each post (..malodorous pervert!). Too bad; I was kind of looking forward to more of the off-topic “schoolhouse debate”
HC,
You may want to rethink your panty vending machine defense before Chips calls you on it.
Anyone who has spent time in Japan has seen the panty vending machines
I haven’t…
Although it appears a machine or two can be spotted if you actually look for it. Just google “japan panty vending machines”. It doesn’t appear that they’re as common as Chip would suggest…otherwise I would have seen them myself.
and the PC forces in this comment thread are strong…
Sooner or later it’s going to be “morally decadent” to show an interest in the opposite sex.
Plunge is a very interesting name for the site. Any collocation can be used with plunge and the end result is alwasy the same - it is evaluated negatively.
Now was this a clever idea from the start or just random luck. We may never know.
I would say that using “Chief ‘Wiggles’” as a nom de plume is a bit suspect as well.
Oooo my turn my turn!!
Well, I expected a response from Hans but I thought he could at least follow what I had said given his liberal use of adjectives. Reminds me of William Rogers Jones in KT. Oozing words for the sake of hearing himself.
I’ll restate my point. I wasn’t disparaging any historians who criticize Gibbon, or any “relevant scholarship” for that matter. In fact, I alluded to there being a fair amount. So there’s no need to quote any since there’s no issue to attach my references to. Perhaps he wants names just for the sake of it? Ok: Sir Berlin, Sir Neale, Prof’s Poppin, Croce, Becker, Trevelyan, Butterfield, Carlysle, Burckhardt, Peter Geyl, etc. etc. etc. (And I did actually mention one historian in my post though I guessed he missed it.) All commented on Gibbon and criticized him. None of them disregarded his work as carelessly as Hans did. Gibbon has his faults but to poopoo everything in his works as utterly unusable, and in a vein that seems like an attempt to legitimize any kind of behavior no matter how it affects anyone else, is simply unacceptable. Maybe I was too dismissive in my criticism but, and forgive my “social conservatism,” when someone, under the guise of revisionist criticism of Gibbon, tries to legitimize panty pulling, statutory rape (the actual term for the kind of “teenage promiscuity” alluded to), and any other form of decadence that violates other peoples privacy and security that goes too far. And all to hear himself talk…Sanctimonious? How about pretentious.
Try this on for size: Péter plus haut que son cul!
As for the Urban Legend remark, that’s just not cricket dude. You may want to re-examine your “rage-filled rant” comment. Please read thoroughly this time before commenting. BTW, you catch Hatton-Collazo? What a ripoff!
For Ray, I shouldn’t have insinuated that the vending machines in question were common; they’re not. They’re not in plain view, they’re not on every corner, they’re not a part of daily life for Japanese… But they’re there and maybe not in foreigner-saturated places like Ropongi in Tokyo or America Village in Osaka but they’re there. In fact they’ve even been highlighted on late night tv in Japan in places like love hotels and outside the underground sex clubs (literally underground). Just go out and look for 下着 自販機 (and no I don’t speak much Japanese. I got this from one of my Japanese friends in Tokyo).
BTW, I doubt you can google such a thing. The DBs for “.com” and “.co.jp” aren’t the same. Type in the Japanese words on “.co.jp” and you’ll get a few more responses, I’ll bet.
See there now!! All this crap about panty machines and Gibbon was enough to distract some from the meat of the conversation. Is Plunge’s diatribe overboard or out of place? I think the answer is yes. There’s enough shit to go around in the world and people need to clean up their own act before stickin their fingers in other people’s business. Isn’t that what I said? I think it is.
> I’m glad that I am not the only one in this thread who has not read Gibbon’s books.
Not read? Gibbon’s DECLINE AND FALL has some of the best prose in the English language. Totally worth a read, although not so much for its actual history (very good, however, if you are into historiagraphy).
Anyhow, as to Japan and morals… If the morality of Japan was on the decline, wouldn’t you expect to see a rising crime rate, theft, murder, etc. Crime in Japan increased dramatically over the 1990s, but declined slightly in 2003 and 2004 (the most recent numbers I could find).
Despite such a rise, however, the serious crime rate in Japan remains greatly lower than in Western countries. Sure, statistics are gathered differently and crimes are prosecuted differently (and, yes, the Japanese cops are probably as incompetent as the Korean cops), but Japan is still much safer than most countries.
Much like in the United States in the 1990s, where fear of crime rose even as crime rates fell, the media in Japan focuses on the lurid and shocking stories. Tabloids, especially, like to write about declining morals all the time, in every country. In a country of 125 million, you are bound to find some terrible stories, even in the best of times.
MrChips,
I live in Tokyo for years. I’ve seen machines selling foods, cigarettes, stockings, new underwear etc.
If you are talking about machines selling used panties, they are not to be found. Stores are prohibited from actually buying/selling this kind of things. Even if there are still some fetish shops that sell them, most Japanese aren’t familiar with it.
aww Christ on a Crutch!! Would people stop telling me I haven’t seen what I’ve seen. The panty machines are there… I lived in Japan just shy of 5 years (mid to late 90s all in Tokyo) and my first day in country my Japanese guide showed one to me right outside shin-Kawasaki station. In my occupation (no more hints on that one) we busted 2 guys in the US military for taking the crap on base. I didn’t know it was illegal though and the Japanese police never insinuated as much to us only that just seedy types went there. It was, however, illegal for US military and furthermore we had to actually scout out these kinds of places with Japanese police escorting us in order to mark certain places off limits to US Navy personnel. If they can find it anyone can. If you’ve lived there and haven’t seen one, that’s great, I’m happy for you. Just forget about it then and chalk it up to good fortune but dump the dogma about what you haven’t seen.
I have only been in Japan a few days in my life and never seen a used panty machine.
Here is what I have gathered from Googling a bit: The used panty machines came out in the early 1990s but were largely shut down by 1993. Over the next decade, they slowly made a comeback until another crackdown a couple of years ago. The latest siting was in 2003, I think.
Since the trade appears to be technically illegal, it makes a lot more sense to just sell the stuff at a shop were the clerks can pull it under the counter when John Law shows up.
Thanks for settling this crucially important debate with accurate, useful information
i’ve seen the panty pulling video. you can quite easily tell a “fake” reaction to a real one, there can’t be 150 good actress’ hired for this dvd. for what it’s worth, this heinous act is most likely real.
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