Comments on: U.S. should expand interests in Mongolia: scholar http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/ Korea... in Blog Format Wed, 3 Dec 2008 03:57:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: The USA takes its first North Korean refugee… from South Korea at The Marmot’s Hole http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34592 The USA takes its first North Korean refugee… from South Korea at The Marmot’s Hole Sat, 29 Apr 2006 14:21:58 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34592 [...] Frankly, I would much rather see the US getting North Korean refugees via, say, Mongolia or even Europe.  North Koreans are legally citizens of the ROK and I would much rather see our asylum spots going to refugees on the run rather folks who want to upgrade countries.  [...] [...] Frankly, I would much rather see the US getting North Korean refugees via, say, Mongolia or even Europe.  North Koreans are legally citizens of the ROK and I would much rather see our asylum spots going to refugees on the run rather folks who want to upgrade countries.  [...]

]]> By: wjk http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34578 wjk Sat, 29 Apr 2006 06:17:24 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34578 baduk, thank you. Although privately, in my opinion, I think #2 is true for Japan and Korea. Or it might be the result of 30 years of colonization. What you said is definitely possible to do. Japanese can be (or were) insidiously crafty. True also, that a lot of those profs went to Japanese universities for their degrees. Pretty much everyone in Korea generally knows that Wasaeda is a good university. The part about SungGyunGwan is pretty shocking to me. No wonder the Chosun kings even kept very shameful and detailed aspects of their monarchy in written records ! Chosun's records are the probably the most accurate and detailed of all the historical records in Korea. Everything else in my mind is pretty much worked up to sound good. Too bad, it sits somewhere in Tokyo University. Why do the Japanese want to hold on to this anyway? baduk, thank you.

Although privately, in my opinion, I think #2 is true for Japan and Korea. Or it might be the result of 30 years of colonization.

What you said is definitely possible to do. Japanese can be (or were) insidiously crafty.

True also, that a lot of those profs went to Japanese universities for their degrees. Pretty much everyone in Korea generally knows that Wasaeda is a good university.

The part about SungGyunGwan is pretty shocking to me. No wonder the Chosun kings even kept very shameful and detailed aspects of their monarchy in written records !

Chosun’s records are the probably the most accurate and detailed of all the historical records in Korea. Everything else in my mind is pretty much worked up to sound good. Too bad, it sits somewhere in Tokyo University. Why do the Japanese want to hold on to this anyway?

]]> By: baduk http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34577 baduk Sat, 29 Apr 2006 05:49:28 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34577 wjk, Let's just assume that Korea has taken over Philippine Island. To control the native, the following lies will be spread. 1)Koreans and Philippinos are very similar in characteristics and history. (coherence) 2) In history, Philippinos are close to Koreans than any other race on earth.(exclusivity) 3) Deep inside, two peoples share common values.(commonality) Impossible to do this? You gather up Philippino children and make them speak only Koreans and have them change their names to Korean. Just wait about 30 years. There will be no doubters. Japan has re-wrote Korean history when it took over Korea. Korean history books are filled with Japanese propaganda. Thorough re-examinations and re-writings are truly needed! However, most professors in universities have received their degrees from Japanese universities. So, these lies are being perpetuated for decades. Do you know why "SungGunGwan" kept the detailed record of Korean history? The lie is that Koreans wanted to record detailed acts of kings to teach future generations. Lies, lies, lies! When the Chinese officials come to Korea, the first thing they do was to read those records. Korean kings were not allowed to read or change them. Korea was a part of the Chinese empire. wjk,
Let’s just assume that Korea has taken over Philippine Island. To control the native, the following lies will be spread.

1)Koreans and Philippinos are very similar in characteristics and history. (coherence)
2) In history, Philippinos are close to Koreans than any other race on earth.(exclusivity)
3) Deep inside, two peoples share common values.(commonality)

Impossible to do this? You gather up Philippino children and make them speak only Koreans and have them change their names to Korean. Just wait about 30 years. There will be no doubters.

Japan has re-wrote Korean history when it took over Korea. Korean history books are filled with Japanese propaganda. Thorough re-examinations and re-writings are truly needed! However, most professors in universities have received their degrees from Japanese universities. So, these lies are being perpetuated for decades.

Do you know why “SungGunGwan” kept the detailed record of Korean history? The lie is that Koreans wanted to record detailed acts of kings to teach future generations. Lies, lies, lies! When the Chinese officials come to Korea, the first thing they do was to read those records. Korean kings were not allowed to read or change them.

Korea was a part of the Chinese empire.

]]> By: snow http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34570 snow Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:03:45 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34570 Thanks Sperwer, sounds interesting. Obviously, foreign affairs have always been and remain very complex. I don't blame McCarthy for hating commies, but it sounds like he often went too far, to the point of contributing to messing up the US' foreign affairs in this case. Thanks Sperwer, sounds interesting. Obviously, foreign affairs have always been and remain very complex. I don’t blame McCarthy for hating commies, but it sounds like he often went too far, to the point of contributing to messing up the US’ foreign affairs in this case.

]]> By: Sperwer http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34561 Sperwer Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:10:57 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34561 Snow: No, sorry. The author, Tomas Laird, a longtime resident of Katmandu, claims that Chiang stole several tens of billions(!) of the aid that the US sent to the Nationalsists and used about a billion (!) of that to support the US China Lobby that together with McCarthy made a hash of US policy in China and Central Asia, in part by decimating the cadre of State Dept experts in the affairs of that part of the world. Probably the best known victim was Owen Lattimore, who in addition to being one of the leading scholars of that generation, happened BTW to believe that all the peoples to the north and west of the Great Wall deserved their own countries rather than Chinese oppression. That was anathema not only to Mao, later, but to Chiang. Laird makes the plausible claim that because of the ignorance of US policy makers resulting from the absence of qualified experts as a consequence of McCarthy's witchhunt, and the political machinations of the Chiang financed China lobby, led by the Luces (Life Magazine, etc), the US failed to back the Mongols, Kazaks, Uighers, ans especially the Tibetans etc. in Central Asia at a time when doing so could have made a huge immediate difference (and would have had huge implications today considering the physical constraints doing so would have imposed on China), just as they failed to back Vietnamese nationalism (although there the information deficit was compounded by a misguided sense of the need to prop up what was left of Frog colonialism). Of course, the other problem that Laird barely takes account of is that China and Russia were also distracting US attention from Central Asia mightily at that point by unleashing and backing Kim Il Sung's move on the ROK. The subtitle of Laird's book, btw, is The Cia's first atomic spy and his secret expedition to Lhasa. Snow:

No, sorry. The author, Tomas Laird, a longtime resident of Katmandu, claims that Chiang stole several tens of billions(!) of the aid that the US sent to the Nationalsists and used about a billion (!) of that to support the US China Lobby that together with McCarthy made a hash of US policy in China and Central Asia, in part by decimating the cadre of State Dept experts in the affairs of that part of the world. Probably the best known victim was Owen Lattimore, who in addition to being one of the leading scholars of that generation, happened BTW to believe that all the peoples to the north and west of the Great Wall deserved their own countries rather than Chinese oppression. That was anathema not only to Mao, later, but to Chiang. Laird makes the plausible claim that because of the ignorance of US policy makers resulting from the absence of qualified experts as a consequence of McCarthy’s witchhunt, and the political machinations of the Chiang financed China lobby, led by the Luces (Life Magazine, etc), the US failed to back the Mongols, Kazaks, Uighers, ans especially the Tibetans etc. in Central Asia at a time when doing so could have made a huge immediate difference (and would have had huge implications today considering the physical constraints doing so would have imposed on China), just as they failed to back Vietnamese nationalism (although there the information deficit was compounded by a misguided sense of the need to prop up what was left of Frog colonialism). Of course, the other problem that Laird barely takes account of is that China and Russia were also distracting US attention from Central Asia mightily at that point by unleashing and backing Kim Il Sung’s move on the ROK.

The subtitle of Laird’s book, btw, is The Cia’s first atomic spy and his secret expedition to Lhasa.

]]> By: Sperwer http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34560 Sperwer Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:10:16 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34560 Snow: No, sorry. The author, Tomas Laird, a longtime resident of Katmandu, claims that Chiang stole several tens of billions(!) of the aid that the US sent to the Nationalsists and used about a billion (!) of that to support the US China Lobby that together with McCarthy made a hash of US policy in China and Central Asia, in part by decimating the cadre of State Dept experts in the affairs of that part of the world. Probably the best known victim was Owen Lattimore, who in addition to being one of the leading scholars of that generation, happened BTW to believe that all the peoples to the north and west of the Great Wall deserved their own countries rather than Chinese oppression. That was anathema not only to Mao, later, but to Chiang. Laird makes the plausible claim that because of the ignorance of US policy makers resulting from the absence of qualified experts as a consequence of McCarthy's witchhunt, and the political machinations of the Chiang financed China lobby, led by the Luces (Life Magazine, etc), the US failed to back the Mongols, Kazaks, Uighers, ans especially the Tibetans etc. in Central Asia at a time when doing so could have made a huge immediate difference (and would have had huge implications today considering the physical constraints doing so would have imposed on China), just as they failed to back Vietnamese nationalism (although there the information deficit was compounded by a misguided sense of the need to prop up what was left of Frog colonialism). Of course, the other problem that Laird barely takes account of is that China and Russia were also distracting US attention from Central Asia mightily at that point by unleashing and backing Kim Il Sung's move on the ROK. Snow:

No, sorry. The author, Tomas Laird, a longtime resident of Katmandu, claims that Chiang stole several tens of billions(!) of the aid that the US sent to the Nationalsists and used about a billion (!) of that to support the US China Lobby that together with McCarthy made a hash of US policy in China and Central Asia, in part by decimating the cadre of State Dept experts in the affairs of that part of the world. Probably the best known victim was Owen Lattimore, who in addition to being one of the leading scholars of that generation, happened BTW to believe that all the peoples to the north and west of the Great Wall deserved their own countries rather than Chinese oppression. That was anathema not only to Mao, later, but to Chiang. Laird makes the plausible claim that because of the ignorance of US policy makers resulting from the absence of qualified experts as a consequence of McCarthy’s witchhunt, and the political machinations of the Chiang financed China lobby, led by the Luces (Life Magazine, etc), the US failed to back the Mongols, Kazaks, Uighers, ans especially the Tibetans etc. in Central Asia at a time when doing so could have made a huge immediate difference (and would have had huge implications today considering the physical constraints doing so would have imposed on China), just as they failed to back Vietnamese nationalism (although there the information deficit was compounded by a misguided sense of the need to prop up what was left of Frog colonialism). Of course, the other problem that Laird barely takes account of is that China and Russia were also distracting US attention from Central Asia mightily at that point by unleashing and backing Kim Il Sung’s move on the ROK.

]]> By: snow http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34558 snow Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:51:10 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34558 "due in no small measure to the combined, and as the author argues, coordinated efforts of the McCarthyites and the China Lobby financed by bribes generated by Chiang Kai Sheck with a portion of the billion in doolars in US aid to the Nationalists that Chiang stole." What? Sperwer, this is unclear. You mean the author claimed that Chiang Kai Shek ripped off the money and that's why the CIA's efforts failed? “due in no small measure to the combined, and as the author argues, coordinated efforts of the McCarthyites and the China Lobby financed by bribes generated by Chiang Kai Sheck with a portion of the billion in doolars in US aid to the Nationalists that Chiang stole.”

What? Sperwer, this is unclear. You mean the author claimed that Chiang Kai Shek ripped off the money and that’s why the CIA’s efforts failed?

]]> By: wjk http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34557 wjk Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:50:42 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34557 dogbrett, what question do you have about the Kwak lineage? dogbrett, what question do you have about the Kwak lineage?

]]> By: Sperwer http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34556 Sperwer Fri, 28 Apr 2006 09:35:20 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34556 In CIA headquarters there is a wall of honor on which are mounted stars for each of the CIA operatives who have died in the line of duty. As far as I know, there are no names to go with the stars and the men and women they honor are unknown outside a very few people in the Company, except for the recipient of the first star. He was Douglas Mackiernan, who was sent into Sinkiang in 1949 to set up seismic detection and signal transmitting devices there and inside the Soviet Union to record soviet atomic testing and relay it back to the States. He was stationed briefly in Tiwha (Urumchi), just north of the Taklamakan desert in the borderlands of China, Inner Mongolia, Mongolia and Kazakhstan, under cover as Vice Consul to the US mission there - hard as it is to imagine that could be any kind of cover in those regions. He was killed by accident by Tibetan border guards when he tried to enter Tibet while fleeing from the Chinese communists in 1950. His identity and, in part, his story is known because of a book entitled "Into Tibet" published in 2002. It's not a very good book, both because of the evident problems of access to information under which the author labored and the axe he has to grind; I don't particularly mind his bias, even though I disagree with it, just that he lets it get in the way of telling both this extremely interesting and compelling story as effectively as he might and exposing the deplorable negligence on the part of the CIA and the State Depat that got him killed and the shameful treatment that was doled out to his family and his wife and children agterwards. I mention the book here because both Mackiernan and one of his travelling companions, Frank Bessac, another CIA operative then travelling under the auspices of a Fulbright in the same area, both had extensive contacts with the Mongol and Kazak clans of Inner Mongolia and Sinkiang, with whom they also worked to try to support an independence movement, before getting embroiled in the inept and belated efforts by the US to assist Tibet to fend off the Chinese. It's extremely revealing about how the US completely dropped the ball in that part of the world - due in no small measure to the combined, and as the author argues, coordinated efforts of the McCarthyites and the China Lobby financed by bribes generated by Chiang Kai Sheck with a portion of the billion in doolars in US aid to the Nationalists that Chiang stole. A great yarn that should be consulted as a cautinary tale both by current US policy makers and the people they're finally setting out to help (if they really need reminding). In CIA headquarters there is a wall of honor on which are mounted stars for each of the CIA operatives who have died in the line of duty. As far as I know, there are no names to go with the stars and the men and women they honor are unknown outside a very few people in the Company, except for the recipient of the first star. He was Douglas Mackiernan, who was sent into Sinkiang in 1949 to set up seismic detection and signal transmitting devices there and inside the Soviet Union to record soviet atomic testing and relay it back to the States. He was stationed briefly in Tiwha (Urumchi), just north of the Taklamakan desert in the borderlands of China, Inner Mongolia, Mongolia and Kazakhstan, under cover as Vice Consul to the US mission there - hard as it is to imagine that could be any kind of cover in those regions. He was killed by accident by Tibetan border guards when he tried to enter Tibet while fleeing from the Chinese communists in 1950. His identity and, in part, his story is known because of a book entitled “Into Tibet” published in 2002. It’s not a very good book, both because of the evident problems of access to information under which the author labored and the axe he has to grind; I don’t particularly mind his bias, even though I disagree with it, just that he lets it get in the way of telling both this extremely interesting and compelling story as effectively as he might and exposing the deplorable negligence on the part of the CIA and the State Depat that got him killed and the shameful treatment that was doled out to his family and his wife and children agterwards. I mention the book here because both Mackiernan and one of his travelling companions, Frank Bessac, another CIA operative then travelling under the auspices of a Fulbright in the same area, both had extensive contacts with the Mongol and Kazak clans of Inner Mongolia and Sinkiang, with whom they also worked to try to support an independence movement, before getting embroiled in the inept and belated efforts by the US to assist Tibet to fend off the Chinese. It’s extremely revealing about how the US completely dropped the ball in that part of the world - due in no small measure to the combined, and as the author argues, coordinated efforts of the McCarthyites and the China Lobby financed by bribes generated by Chiang Kai Sheck with a portion of the billion in doolars in US aid to the Nationalists that Chiang stole. A great yarn that should be consulted as a cautinary tale both by current US policy makers and the people they’re finally setting out to help (if they really need reminding).

]]> By: dogbertt http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/04/27/us-should-expand-interests-in-mongolia-scholar/#comment-34553 dogbertt Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:55:57 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2777#comment-34553 I'm still waiting for a Korean to answer my question about the Kwak lineage and this so-called "단일민족". I think there may even be a Kwak that comments here from time to time. I’m still waiting for a Korean to answer my question about the Kwak lineage and this so-called “단일민족”. I think there may even be a Kwak that comments here from time to time.

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