MUST READ!!!!
UPDATE 5: Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon, expressing regret that some in Japan seem to be taking President Roh’s address as some sort of internal political thing, said Korea would take necessary measures to inform both Koreans and other countries of the propriety of Korea’s claims on Dokdo and to strengthen Korean sovereignty over the islets.
UPDATE 4: Even the Asahi Shimbun seems taken back; they noted Roh’s address came off sounding like he wanted to abandon reconciliation with Japan. It also claimed that Japan also has grounds to claim the Dokdo islets, and that this was unrelated to attempts to “justify its colonial control” of Korea. It did express some degree of understanding, however, why Korea might pile historical issues on top of the Dokdo issue.
The major Korean dailies have generally backed a hardline against Japan, but being conservative as they are, they don’t trust Roh to handle it. Said the Chosun Ilbo:
If we are to correct Japan’s attitude, as the president promised, we have to mobilize all our diplomatic resources, both tangible and intangible. The aim of that diplomacy is to make our counterpart do what we want. But the economic gap between us and Japan has been getting wider in recent years, and our alliance with the U.S. that persuaded Japan to back off when similar disputes flared up in the past is no longer much use since this administration came in power. Rhetoric not backed by force may lull the population at home, but it is nothing but hot air abroad.
And:
The president and government should ponder why his address has not met with much respect in Japan even if there is nothing to fault in the remarks themselves.
These sentiments were pretty much mirrored by the Dong-A Ilbo:
On President Roh’s statement yesterday, the mainstream Japanese sentiment mused that the announcement was “for domestic consumption, for cathartic purposes of the Korean people.” Instead of reacting emotionally, we should devise a waterproof and persuasive logic in order to inform the international society. We should also reflect on the fact that though there are a plethora of “Dokdo promoters,” “Dokdo scholars” are scarce. We should not repeat the mistake of having Japan instead of Korea register the designation of the Dokdo waters.
We should reflect on the cause and effects of our diplomatic stance, on whether Japan perceives Korea in an inconsequential light, due to recent slackening of Korea-U.S. relations. We should observe the Korea-Japan relations in an international perspective in order to find solutions.
The Hankyoreh’s response was relatively measured:
While the direction the government is taking is appropriate, there are details it needs to pay attention to. The first would be consistency. It must not vacillate because of situational changes. It needs to steadily strengthen Korea’s practical control on the islets. The creation of the “Northeast Asia History Foundation,” delayed for some time now, needs to be expedited. There also needs to be substance. You do not automatically solve the more difficult problems by talking big with strong expressions of emotion. Even on the naming question that was at issue this time around, Korea is 20 years behind Japan. Instead of having the president get involved only after such episodes and as if he is part of the independence movement, government officials need to be thorough and determined about Dokdo every day of the year.
In the meantime it would not be desirable to have the whole of Korea-Japanese relations turn cold over the Dokdo issue. The government of Junichiro Koizumi and its harm to relations with actions like worship at the Yasukuni Shrine and exchange at the nongovernmental level need to be approached separately.
Someone might want to make a note of this to the Sankei Shimbun, because if they are thinking of strengthening solidarity with the Korean right (i.e., the likes of the Chosun, Dong-A and their readers), they may wish to do it over as issue other than Dokdo.
UPDATE 3: More good commentary, this time from L’Ombre de l’Olivier:
I think that in Japan, at least, this speech will be regarded by practically everyone as a sign that Roh is a nationalistic idiot who can’t be relied on to do anything for Japan. The Japanese may possibly at some point make some concession to Korea in regard to the Dokdo issue but, as a result of this tirade, it will seen as the adult indulging the tantrum-throwing child and clearly will expect that the rest of the world will give it credit.
Indeed going on the latest Koizumi comments I would say that that is precisely what Japan is doing. I agree with people like Plunge (and apparently over 50% of the Japanese electorate) that Koizumi really shouldn’t be visiting Yasukuni and that it is clearly intended for (internal) political purposes no matter what he may say publicly, however, the fact remains that to outsiders (i.e. anyone not in/closely associated with either the 2 Koreas or the PRC) it looks like these countries are making a mountain out of a molehill. Indeed the (unspoken/whsipered) subtext of all this is that until recently Japan felt constrained by its early 20th century behaviour to grovel to its former victims, but that it feels that 60 years is quite enough time for such behaviour to last and that it is time for the 2nd largest global economy to be recognised as such and take its rightful place as a world power rather than just being the world’s aid chequebook. Indeed the Japanese commentary on this affair, that Dokdo is being used by Roh purely for internal Korean politics (and for that matter the same goes for Yasukuni, textbooks etc.), has enough truth in it that it helpfully diverts world attention away from that fact that Koizumi and Abe, and probably others, are using their responses to these complaints for internal Japanese political advantage.
Hard to argue with that.
Marmot’s Commentary: The most frustrating thing with Roh’s response is that Korea is actually in the power position here—it occupies the islets. All Korea needs to do is sit tight and ignore the Japanese every time they open their mouth about Dokdo. No need to get break out the hyperbole. Just ignore them. Make the Japanese look like the troublemakers stirring things up. It should be the Koreans, not the Japanese, blowing off remarks as “for domestic consumption.” Force the Japanese to decide whether or not to do something stupid over a couple of rocks and look like the bad guy. Heck, even if the matter went to the ICJ and Korea lost, all Seoul would have to do is ignore the decision—it would certainly be in good company doing so. By screaming bloody murder like the Imperial Army was landing in Busan (i.e., the “Japan is negating the complete liberation and independence of Korea” talk), all Korea is doing is make Koizumi, Abe, Aso and Co. look like the sane and responsible party. And Roh ends up a caricature of everything the Japanese right and their friends in the Japanese media say about Korea.
UPDATE 3: In a sign that not all is lost between Korea and Japan, actress Fueki Yuko, known as Yoo Min here in Korea, is apparently doing well in her native land. The drama “Attention Please,” which stars Fueki, is apparently the second-most watched weekday drama in Japan. Fueki is more active in Korea than in Japan, and no, I never found her supposedly existent nude photos, other than stills from her film Shin Yukiguni.
UPDATE 2: Cheong Wa Dae has apparently ruled out a summit meeting with Koizumi (hat tip to Nomad). This is something the Japanese prime minister warns Korea (and China) will come to regret:
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Tuesday he thinks China and South Korea will come to regret their refusal to hold summit talks with Japan, as a result of his visits to the war-linked Yasukuni Shrine.
“There must come a time when they will regret they have said they do not want to hold summit talks due to this issue,” Koizumi told reporters, reiterating that he “cannot understand” the positions of Beijing and Seoul.
…
Koizumi claimed Tuesday the leaders of other countries with whom he has had talks have “all understood my argument and said it is China and South Korea that are unusual.”
Emphasis mine. Over at Foreign Dispatches, not only does Abiola translate the Sankei Shimbun’s quotation of Mr. Koizumi’s remarks, but he adds some—IMHO—spot-on-commentary on this whole friggin’ mess:
Furthermore, Koizumi has a solid point in stating that neighbors refusing to hold top-level talks over such a minor issue is ridiculous: if the Chinese and the South Koreans can talk with a Taiwan and a North Korea with which they are still respectively technically at war, then surely they can do the same with a Japan with whom they formally have peaceful relations. There are far more important disputes raging all across the world despite which leaders still manage to talk to one another, yet in East Asia we’re supposed to think it reasonable that this one is a step too far even while North Korean commando raids, abductions and counterfeiting are nothing of the sort? Every time Japan’s neighbors go ballistic over such minor matters, it not only gives the Japanese press all the ammunition it needs to paint Korea and China as hostile and erratic countries, but also provides Koizumi an opportunity to effectively do the same for international consumption through his unfailingly low-key responses - in short, he appears like a wise adult dealing indulgently with petulant children. This would be no big deal if it were mere theatre, but the reality is that such perceptions do count in the real world, and the likes of Communist China wouldn’t be assiduously courting nations which recognize Taiwan if they didn’t recognize this in other contexts.
The Kyunghyang Shinmun, by the way, wasted no time in slamming the Koizumi’s “belittling” of Korea:
The Japanese government is outwardly responding to President Roh Moo-hyun’s special address Tuesday in a careful manner, but their inner disinterest is clear. There has even been once again belittlement of the speech as “for domestic consumption,” just like after Roh’s address last March following Shimane Prefecture’s “Takeshima Day” ordinance and the distortion of history in Japanese textbooks.
Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi Junichiro said immediately after Roh’s address, “We will respond coolly based on Korea-Japan friendship,” but he also said, “Because of this, we need a Korea-Japan summit meeting,” stressing indirectly that the cause of bogged-down ties between Seoul and Tokyo is on the Korean side. Hardliner Abe Shinzo, the Japanese chief cabinet minister, avoided a response, saying, “I will analyze things after reading [Roh’s] address carefully.”
In fact, within Japan, they are saying, “Not another address”; the dominant mood is that they are not taking Roh’s address seriously. This is far from the mood in Korea, where there are particular emotions attached to the Dokdo issue and people are demanding sincere reflection over the situation.
I don’t quite know what kind of response the Kyunghyang was expecting from Japan. At least Abe Shinzo didn’t ask how much an hour Kim Jong-il’s speechwriter charges. The paper also said that within Japan, the view was Roh’s threats to depart the path of “quiet diplomacy” were nothing new, and that the his address could be seen as an attempt to assuage criticism that Korea dropped the ball in its latest negotiations with Japan and a political ploy ahead of local elections.
One (presumably Korean) analyst looked at things a bit differently, however:
Japan knows well that anti-Japanism in Korea is not necessarily linked directly to political intentions, taking for example the total defeat of the ruling party in last year’s April 30 by-elections, which were held following Roh’s March [anti-Japanese] address…. In this situation, by repeating the same things as last year, they can make Roh a lame-duck earlier.
One thing I know for certain, however, is that by labeling—in public—the Koizimi government as “extreme nationalist,” Roh has made it very hard for himself to agree to a summit meeting with the current prime minister or Abe Shinzo, who many expect to become the follow Koizumi. None of this bodes well for either side.
UPDATE: Surprise, surprise… according to Yonhap, the Japanese appear to be blowing off Roh’s address as gungnae-yong (for domestic use). In particular, Foreign Minister Aso Taro said that the aborted Japanese survey in the waters off Dokdo was a response to Korean moves to register Korean names for the area’s seabed topography and had nothing to do with the history issue.
ORIGINAL POST: Yonhap called it a declaration of “diplomatic war” on Japan. Whatever you call it, nobody will ever call President Roh’s address to the nation (courtesy Cheong Wa Dae, which was quick to get the thing translated) Tuesday an exercise in diplomatic ambiguity. It starts:
My fellow Koreans,
Dokdo is our land. It is not only part of our territory but also our own soil of historic significance where forty years of painful history is engraved vividly.
In case you were wondering, the president used the term “history” no less than 14 times throughout the address.
The money shot? OK:
Japan’s present claim to Dokdo is claiming a right to what it had once occupied during an imperialist war of aggression, and what is worse, it is claiming a right to a former colonial territory of bygone years. This is an act of negating the complete liberation and independence of Korea. Moreover, this is an act of contending the legitimacy of Japan’s criminal history of waging wars of aggression and annihilation as well as forty years of exploitation, torture, imprisonment, forced labor, and even military sexual slavery. We cannot tolerate this for anything.
I’m often asked why some foreigners don’t take Korea seriously when it comes to Dokdo. Well, kiddies, this is why. That’s not saying Korean’s must–or even should–care whether said foreigners take them seriously or not. I’m just explaining the phenomenon.
Anyway, read the rest on your own—it’s a doozy.
For what it’s worth, Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi is calling for calm… and a summit meeting. Given the way recent intra-Korean ministerial meetings have gone, however, perhaps Tokyo would have been better off demanding the release of Japanese prisoners in South Korea and several thousand tons of free semiconductors in return for the start of discussions about the future of Dokdo.
Postscript: The worst part of this is that regardless of the intentions with which it was addressed, Roh’s speech will be read in Japan as confirmation of everything the Japanese media seem to have been saying about the president and his confirmation, namely, that by linking everything with history, he’s inciting anti-Japanese sentiment for political gain. And what’s more, while Tokyo might feel sorry and offer concessions, it might also very well just tune out everything Roh says from now on, if it hasn’t done so already. Being strong means going up there and saying, “No, Dokdo is not yours, it’s ours, and no, we won’t take it to the ICJ, and wouldn’t recognize the jurisdiction of the court even if—through no efforts on our part, mind you—the Dokdo issue did get placed before the ICJ. The only way you’re going to get it back is by fighting for it. Have a nice day.” That’s it. That’s all than needed to be said.
89 Comments
This was an utterly stupid, self-defeating address for Roh to make. Did Jpana specifically say it was sending the survey ship(s) to Dokdo? Then why bring it up? He should have simply had the prime minister tell Tokyo that no Japanese survey of Korea’s EEZ will be allowed, and not mention Dokdo, and not go on national TV and spew nonsense. Now Japan can say the islets are disputed because Roh shot his mouth off and made them an issue. Brilliant.
Man oh man.
Roh, as seen in the past, doesn’t seem to have much international skills/diplomacy. Wonder if he actually wrote this or had a speech writer. I feel like other politicians (especially those who have to work internationally - go abroad often) have to cover up/do damage work for what Roh says. IMO Korea needs more sense in the international arena.
A good title for a book about Roh Moo-hyun: “King of the Goofballs.”
By the way, I am waiting for some goofball to say that Japan is equally responsible for stirring up trouble between the two countries by somehow forcing Roh to make that goofball speech after the two countries had just reached a compromise on the maritime survey. Where are you Kushibo? Or have you already posted your one-comment limit for the day?
Hey, it’s April and an election is coming up — and Roh is firing verbal broadsides at Japan. How novel.
The sad thing is, each time he has done this over the past four years, he’s won (or at least lessened his potential losses).
The attempted Japanese maritime survey was the Korean 9/11.
Minus the 3000 dead, hundreds of billions in economic damage, and resulting wars.
Plus a schooner with some dorky Japanese scientists.
“For this is a matter where no compromise or surrender is possible, whatever the costs and sacrifices may be.”
For a minute, I thought he was referring to North Korean human rights. But then I realized he was talking about a big fucking rock, and not millions of innocent lives. And it made perfect sense.
The Great Pretender is morphing into the Emperor Without any Clothes.
This is moronic. Ok, I can see giving a sop to those inclined to wallow in han to make-up for in effect backing down in the latest contretemps, but this idjit is pouring gochu garu into the stew.
It’ll be interesting to see if this gooses up Uri turnout in the upcoming elections, which is the only plausible, albeit not justifiable, explanation for this intemperate outburst, I doubt it though. It might have some such impact in a presidential election, but not I think in the local and polls.
Roh is probably going to the well once too often. His administration has been so ineffective that even Japan-bashing probably won’t help it much at this point.
i didn’t hear the speech, but it seems like he’s gearing up for elections. Bevers, I’ll be the idiot. Koizumi is equally responsible. Roh isn’t that bright and he’s a nationalist and a commy. What else did Koi expect? And who cares if it’s disputed internationally? I don’t see anyone handing Kashmir over to either India or Pakistan, by “international powers”. It’s just a freaking uninhabited island. If Japan wants it, it needs to engage in at least a sea battle. It’s not worth it for them. If they think it is, they’re dumb as hell. Plus, I don’t even think it’s theirs. They want to claim it, go claim all the uninhabited isles occupied during WWII.
you need to understand why Roh is making historic reference.
because the major ‘evidence’ given by japan’s claim is that they ‘discovered/incorporated’ it 10 months before occupying korea.
roh was saying this is not a valid point for japan’s claim.
And if it had stopped there, it would have been fine. After all, we are discussing two competing claims based on history. But read the speech again (assuming the money quote wasn’t enough), and you’ll see the rhetoric goes way beyond simply discrediting Japan’s historical claims on the island.
But Roh did give Koreans a word of advice:
Gerry: Yeah, right, Roh.
Roh and his people are losing it. They feel like they are backed into a corner. This is not just about domestic politics. Roh and his people feel that they have been shamed in the international community while Japan has gained renewed respect. Korea’s reputation abroad sucks and is getting worse, thanks in large part to the way Korea has dealt with human rights in North Korea, has discriminated against foreign companies in Korea who dare to make a profit, and has dealt with issues involving Japan.
I think that Roh and his people actually want a war with Japan, and are probably thinkng that China and North Korea will back them in fight, or, at least, back them in threatening Japan. They may also be thinking that a war would help reunited North and South Korea.
Korea’s claims on Dokdo suck, and they know it, so they start yelling, “We don’t care what anyone thinks, Dokdo is yours, and we will never give it up. Screw international law; screw historical documents; Dokdo is ours because we say it is.”
I think Korea was disappointed that they did not get a chance to capture a Japanese survey ship. That would have shown how tough Korea is. Instead, the world heard only Korea say, “Screw international law,” and heard her ridiculous threats that sounded a lot like those her their brothers and sisters in the North made. Japan came out of the survey incident smelling like a rose, while Korea came out smelling like stale “kimchi.” After the fact, Roh realized this, got his pride hurt, and made his goofball speech today.
Roh’s speech today was not about politics; it was about pride.
The money quote is all-too-typical hyperbole and you’re right, Marmot, it confirms the stereotype Japan has of their overheated cousins on the peninsula. Roh should not have given any speeches and reinforced Korea’s territorial sovereignity on the basis of the EEZ, which other counties would relate to and more likely support, through diplomatic channels or the prime minister, and kept his mouth closed about it, in that “cool-headed manner” that his government keeps talking about but never seems to accomplish.
If he never mentioned Dokdo in relation to the survey, the dispute over Dokdo would not come into play. The only reason this will probably not matter in the long run is that Japan will not match his rhetoric, so he just comes off as shrill and amateur. And the situation has not even remotely been resolved by Roh’s outburst.
Actually, doesn’t Korea already have soldiers on the island? If so, then its theirs. If japan can claim Dokdo, Mexico can claim California.
As a Japanese paper has described it, he is not trying simply to secure Dokdo as a Korean History, he is playing the Identitiy politics.
His (hidden)intention is to re-write the whole modern Korean history that ALMOST ALL KOREAN were freedom fighters from the beginning,that only small numbers of Korean were collaborators, and the reason why Japan could keep them as a colony is because evil Japan and Japanese were just as evil as Nazi (or worse), and used cruel methods that can be only compared to the Nazi.
Incredible!! He is trying to define the future of Korea on victimhood (forever).
If Dokdo really belongs to Japan, how was it that South Korea were able to position troops on the island in the first place?
Btw, I heard that Castro now has plans to retake Guantanamo Bay through the ICJ.
i rather like the strategy of roh’s address. instead of compartmentalizing the dokto issue into a technical and legal issue, roh is pointing out the historical context with which he and probably most koreans see the dokto issues. and rightly so. history often threatens to repeat itself. i don’t think the japanese government is planning on a new imperial expansion, but it is certainly unabashedly pushing a militarist agenda. ignoring this in the recent past resulted in disaster for korea. so the korean government’s view on japan’s recent actions is understandable.
is it wrong to make those historical connections? i don’t think so. in the address, roh is saying, ‘look, this is a big deal to us. it’s not just a couple of big rocks and a maritime legal dispute. we just want you to know the reasons we are taking this so seriously. while we ask you to cede your claims to something you don’t even control, you are asking us to cede not only territory, but the rectification of historical injustice.’
the address broadcasts the historical significance of dokto to the international community. while obviously it’s not been effective to western male blog commentators, i think it could garner support throughout asia, and maybe even among the japanese. here in japan, most japanese i know really would rather just drop the whole issue. most would agree to roh’s speech, and i run with a pretty broad spectrum of japanese here. it’s clearly a koizumi issue pandering to the right wing and some provincial fishermen.
over the years i’ve learned not to underestimate the deep distrust of the recently oppressed to their former oppressors. most of my east european friends have a profound reaction against all things russian and soviet, that i can barely comprehend. same for my irish friends against the brits. even old-timer americans have a, to me, illogical distrust of germans and japanese. this is the context in which dokto should be viewed, not as a dispute between denmark and canada over their island. they never had the history that korea and japan had.
finally, names and words are a big deal. laws are made of words and names. perceptions and opinions and actions are built from words and naming. renaming post-colonial territory is just a process of decolonization. all former colonies do it and are still doing it. while to us younger folk, the japanese occupation seems like ancient history, keep in mind there are millions who have lived through the period who are still alive, and many more who are still affected by it. just look at all of us, typing aways and getting so emotional about countries most of us have scant connections to. if some of the writers here get so fired up about it, why wouldn’t the koreans be a bit more fired up about it? and why shoudn’t the koreans, if roh can speak for them, also explain why they’re so fired up about what seems like a minor territorial dispute?
holy cow, that last post is much longer than i envisioned!
Japan “is certainly unabashedly pushing a militarist agenda” — examples?
I think you’re on to something. But to the extent that The Great Pretender’s outburst resonates with the danilminjok it also illustrates the enormous disconnect between what Koreans think it means to have pride and what the rest of the world thinks it means. As you say, Roh seems to be operating on the principle that Korea has embarrassed itself and the only way to undo the self-inflicted damage to its self-esteem is to engage in even more monumentally embarrassing whingeing bluster in the vain hope that will convince everyone to accept the original, comparatively less egregious behavior as acceptable. It’s a typical NORK temper tantrum, without all the colorful epithets of KCNA.
Richard,
“I’m often asked why some foreigners don’t take Korea seriously when it comes to Dokdo.”
You must have some weird friends. As far as I know, Korea doesn’t seem to give a damn about what foreigners think about Dokdo, they simply insist it is theirs. When was the last time Roh visited a foreign country and urged the leader of that country to support Korea’s claim on Dokdo?
Mahathir fan, for the last time, my name is Robert, not Richard.
“No, Dokdo is not yours, it’s ours, and no, we won’t take it to the ICJ, and wouldn’t recognize the jurisdiction of the court even if—through no efforts on our part, mind you—the Dokdo issue did get placed before the ICJ. They only way you’re going to get it back is by fighting for it. Have a nice day.”
Very (un)civilized solution. I’m impressed!
But what Roh would really do on this “deplomatic war” is an another issue…
Usually I don’t pay much attention to Korea’s emotional rants on anything but in regards to Dokdo, they do have a more legitimate claim to the rocks than Japan. Having said that though, Roh isn’t doing them any favors by giving such an ultra-nationalistic and inflammatory speech.
The bottom line is President Roh is an idiot with little or no experience in world affairs. He does nothing to change the poor perception the world has of Korea.
Oh…and it is Sea of Japan, not the East Sea. That body of water is only “east” to Korea. The Koreans could not have picked a worse name in their efforts to change the name. It’s an intentional poke in the eye to Japan. Then again, maybe that was their intention.
Should the US rename the Gulf of Mexico, the Southern Gulf? Same thing.
Very (un)civilized indeed. Or very American.
I haven’t been a fan of anything involving the UN—including the ICJ—and I’m not about to start viewing its proclamations as sacrosanct now.
robert,
i am not korean. i do not have any interest in the dokdo debate. but i do not find roh’s speech very ‘wrong’.
your ‘money quote’: is it any different from what most korean perceive this? is it better for Roh to spell it out or for korean protestors to shout on the street and smash windows of japanese restaurants?
roh was taking a very tough stance, perhaps not as diplomatic and unapologetic. but he made that speech after it was reported that korean agreed to withdraw the proposal for naming the seabed. he needed to make clear his position, or he would lost support from domestic voters.
i agree all sides should calm down. but i don’t know what is worse, you could compare this with
1) koizumi’s public insistence on yasukuni visit
2) GWB’s “you are either with us, or you are with the terrorists”
IMO roh’s speech is much more sane than those from japanese or even american leaders.
Diplomatic War is about the closest that this will get.
Both Korea(south) and Japan are not independent enough to launch a war over Dokdo. Korea(South) is required to hand over its military to the US in the even of war. So if Korea goes to war with Japan over Dokdo, US will be incharge of Korean military.
Japan on the other hand technically does not have a military. So if they claim that Korea attacked first, then US is obligated to help Japan. So we are left with a paradox, US in Korea fighting US in Japan which of course will never happen..
One side has to first renounce the US and be liberated before we can start a war. Or korea(south) needs to knock on the door of Mr. Kim Jong Il for assistance.
It is of course good to settle this Dokdo controvesy now. As the population grows and the love of freedom spread throughout North East Asia, it is very likely that American influenes in the region will wane. Then the threat of war is more real. Better settle this issue now when the threat of war is still small and unlikely.
re:rhetoric, yes, you are right there are a lot of rhetorics. but who doesn’t have rhetorics?
1. japanese thought the chinese used the history/yasukuni issue to extra economic/territorial benefit. they really believe that.
2. chinese think japanese purposedly provoke china with these issues so as to find an excuse to ‘contain’ china. many in china really believe these conspiracy theories, too.
3. i can find you many example of Dubya rhetorics as well, esp during the elections.
similar, what is so wrong about the ‘history’? yes, we should look forward. but just let them talk about history, it cannot create much harm. if history can provoke something dangerous, then perhaps there is some other collaborating factors as well.
Hey, Sunbin, you forgot 3) conducting missile tests ahead of the Taiwanese elections. But who’s counting?
Leaving aside for the moment the question of how much Roh and his friends are responsible for generating the kind of atmosphere that would make it “necessary” for Roh to issue the kind of speech that he did, the fact is that he’s not a protester on the street—he’s the president of the nation. He needs to handle the situation in, as he himself called for, a cool-headed and responsible manner, not issue speeches that make it seem like Japan just placed medium-range missiles on Tsushima. Or grind the axe of historical grievances. And to put this bluntly, even if we were to agree that the “money quote” is how the Korean public sees it, then it would be Korea’s—not Japan’s—problem. But who could blame the public when Roh, Chung, et. al. make the kinds of public statements that they make.
One has to wonder what Roh’s motives here really are. And I’m assuming he has other motives because surely he can’t be dumb enough to think that his rants and raves will be appreciated in contrast to Koizumi’s relative silence on the issue. Now I’m not saying the big K-do is innocent in all this, but he really doesn’t have to do anything to win the diplomacy war as long as Roh keeps talking. I’m baffled over Roh’s absolute inability to put together a coherent thought regarding the legitimacy of Dokdo and the legal argument over the EEZ. In fact, it almost seems like Roh is determined to awaken a very complacent and moderate Japanese society and move them towards the right. The Nationalists in the Japanese Right are nutty enough as it is and the are equally crafty; but they are small as well. Why give them ammunition which is exactly what Roh is doing? Why not appeal to the Japanese mainstream and let them put down the right wing instead of alienating them. Unless perhaps Roh really doesn’t want that. Perhaps he doesn’t want better relations with Japan. Perhaps he harbors a secret desire to see things come to blows. I don’t really think so, but one can’t help but wonder.
After living in Japan for a number of years I know its sometimes hard to figure out what one is thinking and sometimes you get the impression the niceties are hiding something. Regardless of their seeming duplicity at times they are easily the most moderate and apolitical society in Asia and to piss them off and get them all riled up by constantly bringing up history when there is esentially very little reason to do so and nothing to be gained by it is either dumb politics or something more insidious. Roh, Forget about the past and focus on the future!! Why not start with helping North Korean refugees?!! If he spent half as much speech time on that than what he spends on Dokdo maybe the Chinese would start feeling the pressure and lighten up in Manchuria.
Did your mother drop you on your head when you were little?
Mahathir_fan,
If Korea did not “give a damn about what foreigners think about Dokdo,” then why all the bluster? Why all the Web sites? Why all the news coverage? If Koreans really did not care, then why don’t they just shut up, instead of making it a news story every other day?
South Korea has been afraid that the truth about Dokdo would come out, so she has making a lot of noise, hoping that it would drown out anyone who may be speaking the truth or asking questions. The Korean government has not only been afraid that foreigners would learn the truth about Dokdo, but that average Koreans would learn it, too. They are afraid that Koreans will learn that their historians have been lying to them all these years, just as they learned that their scientists had been lying to them about cloning.
Now, I see Korea changing its strategy on Dokdo. Until recently they had been trying to fool the world with smoke-n-mirror arguments about the islets rightfully belonging to Korea, assuming that no one would care enough to check the facts, including other Koreans. However, things have been changing recently. More and more people have become interested in Korea and also in the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute. Now people are checking the facts, and the Korean government knows that she will be unable to keep the secret much longer, so Korea is switching to a combative mood, which is, “We don’t care what anyone thinks; we are keeping Dokdo.”
The reason the Korean government is linking Dokdo with what she calls “Japan’s criminal history” is so that she say that Dokdo, regardless of whose claims are stronger, should be compensation for our past sufferring. So even if Koreans learn the truth about Dokdo, they will still be able to convince themselves that they deserve it, regardless of whose claims are stronger.
Korean logic rolls with the punches. You pin Koreans down with one issue, and then they switch to another. Lying is acceptable if it gets them what they want. Soon Koreans will stop mentioning how Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo, and start claiming that Dokdo should be compensation for their past suffering. Just wait and see.
>Did your mother drop you on your head when you were >little?
Ha,ha,ha, that comment made me laugh.
Mahatir_fan, your posts makee me always laugh. Your posts sounds like that by an aliean from another plant. You just don’t know what’s going on around you.
Seriously, you need more basic information or text book knowledge (tourist guide knowledge?) before you come back to conversation.
Mayhem_Fan,
I’m gonna assume you don’t know that much about the arrangements between US and Korea, or between US and Japan for that matter… The obligation of US to exercise operational control of Korean forces only applies to conflict with North Korea, under the “hat” of UNC. Further, the authority that gives control of Korean forces to the US is the ROK president, per the Pusan letter (Taejon Agreement) who solely holds the power to retrieve that control at any time he wishes. Further, the mutual defense treaty only obligates the US to help South Korea in the event they are attacked. Further, the treaty also states the purpose of the alliance as security of East Asia. Further, Japan operates an Air Force and Navy second only to the United States in potency; while they are referred to as Self-Defense Forces they are extremely well trained and technologically superior to any force this side of the Pacific. (I worked with them for a few years…) Further, their treaty with the US is more specific in realizing a true “mutual defense.” Further that treaty states the defense of Japan as the primarily role of the involvement of the US, not merely the security of East Asia. Further, American influence in Asia won’t wane for a very very long time. And further, judging by the tone of your rant, t’is true you were dropped on your head, and maybe not even when you were little…
This is just too funny . . . I can hear the irritation in this posting.
“mahatir_fan” reminds me a little of the infamous “Rose” from Pakistan that used to post on the KH board.
what does Japan gain from acquiring Dokdo? A friendlier trading/business partner in South Korea? Better relations with North Korea? A precedence to gain back disputed islands from Russia and lock up the islands taken from Taiwan/China?
Why does Japan’s top brass of the LDP feel they have to provoke Korea, when they don’t really gain that much?
For Korea, it’s a defensive, justified reaction.
Don’t take any arguments pro-Takeshima from a person who can’t read Japanese. Maps in the old days were Maps. Overall, inaccurate.
R. Elgin,
““mahatir_fan” reminds me a little of the infamous “Rose” from Pakistan that used to post on the KH board. ”
Oh, no! You just said the “R” word…memories…some are good, some aren’t.
Japan wants a better trade partner and a friendlier Korean society that is more receptive toward Japan?
Then, apologize every single freaking year for the occupation. Just like Germany.
Do nice things for us. Can’t really say they should build us a synagogue, but pay individuals back, help Korea in time of need, make your history text agreeable with Korea’s perception of the occupation.
If not, it’s gonna be this way till the world ends.
It’s all up to Japan.
It sure as hell won’t be Korea kissing up to Japan first. Koreans won’t be rebuilding Shinto shrines all over Korea, not that it’s relevant nor that anything similar would happen in Japan for Korea.
I think Roh’s real motive was to out mahatir_fan as a babbling fool. But as in Korea’s possesion of Dokdo, that is a fact that is aleady self-evident to those who’ve ben around a while.
what exactly did the French do to improve relations with Germany? Occupy it post war, tell it what to do, ban German in Alsace-Lorraine…what did Germany do? Apologize every year, go celebrate the allied landing spot in France every year (who celebrates the beginning of doom for a part of your country’s reign?)…what is the result? A very close relationship between France and Germany. Japan should look into doing this with South Korea. It’s not happening the other way around.
GBevers wrote:
By the way, I am waiting for some goofball to say that Japan is equally responsible for stirring up trouble between the two countries by somehow forcing Roh to make that goofball speech after the two countries had just reached a compromise on the maritime survey. Where are you Kushibo?
Since you prove time and time again that you are incapable of accurately interpreting what little you selectively read from those who disagree with you, you really are in no position to speak for what I think or say on these matters.
Time and time again I have criticized Roh over this kind of thing and his “diplomatic war.” You may have missed that, though, as you futilely scan Marmot’s Hole for agreement with your mantra that “Korea was Japan’s greatest ally.”
So I’ll refresh your memory with this:
Or how about this:
There are plenty of other places too numerous to mention, such as this, but you can go find them yourself.
Or have you already posted your one-comment limit for the day?
Sorry, Bevers, unlike you, I receive neither masturbatory joy nor subsidies from right-wing sources for flooding the Internet with a one-sided, historically skewed, Imperial-apologist view every time someone utters the word “Tokto,” so I will try to limit my writing to just this one comment.
Wjk,
The question should be, “What does Korea have to gain by fanning the smothering embers under the Dokdo dispute?” Here is what I think.
Korea feels that it needs to bring the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute to a head while it still has Korean and international public opinion on its side. Korea knows that it is just a matter of time before its lies are exposed and public opinion begins to shift toward Japan, which would put Korea at a greater disadvantage in negotiations. That is why Korea wants to force an incident now, which would put international pressure of the two countries to settle the dispute as soon as possible.
Japan, on the other hand, has time and truth on her side, so her goal is to delay conflict, not aggrevate it, which will give her time to win over domestic and international public opinion. Of course, Japan cannot ignore Dokdo/Takeshima completely since it would appear that they were giving up their claim on the islets. Nevertheless, Japan is playing it very cool by essentially ignoring Korea’s taunts, which seems to really piss off the Koreans.
So what is the solution?
I think Japan could concede the islets to Korea in exchange for more exclusive economic zone (EEZ). The EEZ line could even be drawn to allow a ten to fifteen kilometer corridor from Korea’s EEZ boundary to Dokdo/Takeshima. This would allow Koreans to keep Dokdo/Takeshima and to save face, and Japan could get more EEZ in compensation.
Wow, I should have been a diplomat.
By the way, I think this conflict is good for the United States. Why? Because the conflict helps both Korea and Japan win domestic support for strengthening their militaries, which would help free up US forces stationed in the region. In South Korea’s case, it also allows her to use Japan as an excuse for building up her military, which is something that North Korea may understand and grudgingly accept. Hey, it’s a win-win.
The last paragraph of my post up there was over-the-top. I apologize to Gerry and anyone else who may have been offended by that.
robert,
re: missile in 1996. that was the most stupid move, they learned the hard lesson, and now know that being quiet is the best strategy.
you have a point about a president and a protester on the street. but then many other asian leaders behave as if they are on the street. (eg all those in taiwan except perhap Mr Ma YJ).
let’s set aside who actually own the islands, and put ourselves in the shoes of Roh. he has 2 objectives
A) create a better negotiation position
B) manage domestic (popular) pressure
A) with this speech he is putting himself in such a hardline position and telling japan he will not give in. this could be a good strategy or a bad one. but given the fact that korea is in control of the island today, and that it was japan who was trying to change the status quo (by sending the survey ships). it might well work in his favor.
B) manage domestic pressure. for lack of better comparison let’s still take China’s case (it is not the best analogy, as japan is in control of diaoyu today)
a) he can act like China in the 1980s, i.e. be very diplomatic and keep silent. but korea is a democracy and he cannot stop his citizen from taking on the streets. so this won;t work.
b) china during spring 2005, practical diplomatic, while letting some of the steam off from the populace. well, you got the same accusation from pro-japan organs. and it does not neccessarily work (as korea cannot crack down on its people today, being a democracy)
c) act proactively, say it before people take to the streets. that is what roh did. in addition, roh is doing it more, and use that to earn political capital for himself. i can hardly blame roh for doing this.
No problem, Kushibo. Like Japan, I was taunting you.
Good, then. Like Japan, my apology may be meaningless.
“kushibo Apr 25th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
Good, then. Like Japan, my apology may be meaningless.
”
that’s a classic !
LOL.
G Bevers wrote:
“I think Japan could concede the islets to Korea in exchange for more exclusive economic zone (EEZ). The EEZ line could even be drawn to allow a ten to fifteen kilometer corridor from Korea’s EEZ boundary to Dokdo/Takeshima. This would allow Koreans to keep Dokdo/Takeshima and to save face, and Japan could get more EEZ in compensation.”
So it’s settled, then. For all your bluster, you seem pretty flexible at the end of the day.
I suggested a similar solution on another thread (http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2743#comment-33706). I guess the only difference is that you would see this as a generous concession on Japan’s part, whereas to me, it would appear that law and precedence is actually on Korea’s side vis-a-vis Dokdo/Takeshima anyhow—the argument has nothing whatsoever to do with pre-20th century maps, even though both countries (and you) are relying on that kind of evidence…but with who’s actually been running the place for much of the last century (http://www.hawaii.edu/elp/publications/faculty/JVD/SeoulMay2002.htm). At the same time, it’s pretty clear that Korea is not in a position to claim a 200-mile EEZ around Dokdo (being a bunch of rocks) at any rate (ibid.)—although Japan is doing the same thing around Okinotori (another rock) way out in the middle of the Pacific (http://japanfocus.org/article.asp?id=497). So drawing a line through the sea somewhere between Dokdo and Oki Island (not to be confused with Okinotori) would seem to be the best solution all round.
But like most of the commentors here, I don’t see how Roh’s escalation of this issue after the fact solves anything—and I agree he should be saving his rhetorical bluster for issues that matter, like human rights north of the DMZ. At the same time, I do see the senior politicians on both sides as pandering to their nationalist, left- or right-wing constituencies respectively…it’s just that Koizumi et al. are more subtle about it. Like I’ve said elsewhere, let the diplomats and public servants on both sides—who aren’t worrying about the next set of elections (ROK) or the LDP leadership race (Japan)—work it out.
Given all the updated commentaries, one wonders why Japan is fueling Roh with an opportunity to rant?
Wouldn’t this be avoided if the 2 japanese boats did not sail at all?
As to Roh. Yes, you are right that all he needed to do was to do nothing. Then what was your advice when the two boats were approaching?
p.s. on China not holding talk. maybe this is planned strategically.
no talk: continue to extract gas on China side of the sea (where there is no dispute), “siphoning” or “no siphoning”
talk: you may have to deal with all the complicated issues of ‘disputed areas’
conclusion: defer talking as much as possible, taking any excuse koizumi may provide.
Sunbin:
Who is “you”? I’m assuming you don’t mean me.
I support Rho on this issue. Just blast(with words) the Fuji mountain monkeys with everything Korea got. Just blast them.
Talk tough. Don’t give in at this stage. Just repeat, “We won’t stand for it. If you come any closer, it is automatic war!”
But, if Japan really comes close, Korea will have to think very seriously about the next step. Dokdo can be given to Japan if the Japanese are willing to exchange something for it. America will step in at this stage and work out some solution.
However, before that time, just blast those waenoms!
The idea of going to war over a pile of crap rock astounds me. This guy deserves the idiot of the year award, and, I thought Mexican Nationals were the stupidest people on earth.
“Further, Japan operates an Air Force and Navy second only to the United States in potency; while they are referred to as Self-Defense Forces they are extremely well trained and technologically superior to any force this side of the Pacific. (I worked with them for a few years…)” MrChips
True. But the Wae Navy and Air Force have a defensive military dogma, equipment, training and strategy. Not much strike capabilities on the other side of the East Sea, Sea of Nippon or whatever. But the most striking counter-argument against counting the superior numbers of GRT and fighter planes is this question: Are Koizumi and Abe willing to sacrifice any numbers of Japanese soldier’s lifes for Dokdo? Yes, according to Prez Roh the ROK obviously is ready to pile up a huge amount of Korean corpses in case of “conflict”. Those sissy Nipponese politicians are not. It’s a question of defiant resolve. In that case: 650.000 to zero for the Koreans. Any frickin’ Korean navy officer is eager to become the 21st century kinda Yi Sun-Shin.
Couldn’t care less, what Last Samurai Bevers and his pro-Japanology Church has to spout about Dokdo, old maps and the ICJ. Geez, Bevers really has a mission to accomplish in preaching his personal wacky truth about Korean goofyness. A born again Japanophile that he is, really, it’s always Korea’s fault,huh, arch-mapper of Takefuckinshima, or whatever island name you have in mind?!?!
Let the International Community judge about Dokdo’s territorial affiliation? Why not letting them decide over the whole Korean peninsula. Like the international major powers did (e.g. Prez Theodore Roosevelt giving the Japanese free hand in Korea in trade-off with the Philippines, Taft-Katsura Agreement) in supporting the Japanese protectorate of Choson in 1905. The International “Whitie’s” Community at the International Peace Conference in The Hagues told King Gojong to back off with his lawsuit against Japanese rule in Korea, cause he was “sovoreign no more” in good old Choson. Hm, no thanx, there’s no need of an ICJ jurisdiction over Dokdo. No international dispute, no ICJ, no Japanese pirates on that pieces of rock - makes me happy like a pig in mud.
Honestly, I’m glad, that Japan’s LDP-monkeys still keep their traditions of annual Yasukuni get-togethers and in fostering terriorial disputes about Dokdo, Kuriles, Diaoyu with ALL neighbouring countries. That’s grand! It reminds every Korean youngster to keep an critical eye till the end of days on them sneaky island folks and rip open their sorry little Nipponese asses, if they try to piss in Korean waters.
Sugar Shin, where you been?
I was very busy. My job is gonna kills me. But today I couldn’t resist to scribble my 2 Cents on Dokdo. It’s becoming lame at Mamrot’s without an ad hominem attacker and griper like me
Corrections: eh, “kill me” and “sovereign”!
well written Sugar Shin. Korea got raped at these international meetings, shut out, jacked. Before ICJ does anything about Dokdo, let them do something about Kashmir, East Timor, Guantanamo Base, etc.
Re: foreign powers deciding Korea’s fate with so many gentlemen’s agreements to which Korea was not privvy:
If you read between the lines at the Yushukan Museum at Yasukuni Shrine, the right-wingers there seem they may be suggesting that the “legally obtained” Korea still rightfully belongs to Japan (. And after August 15, 1945, the erstwhile Imperialists certainly did ask the conquering Allies to let them “retain Korea.
Sugar Shin I have to agree with you but Korea needs to do it and come out looking good as well. Show the world Korea can handle it’s business like some cool mo fos. It can be done and I think that’s what people are arguing about in regards to Roh’s speech. Of course he needs to stand firm on the situation but he could have payed a 4 year old to write better stuff than the dribble he spouted. Give Japan the finger but do it in style. Do it with class. Not like a child screaming to his mother someone is trying to take his candy. Attack the Japanese but with some well thought out cool and inteligent political speeches. That’s half the reason James Bond is so cool. He say’s calm, cool headed stuff and the bad guys come away looking like dopes.
From what I hear from my students Koreans don’t learn debating at school. I think this would really help in Korea. Sure most kids in the west hate debating and its seen as a geeky thing but it really teaches you how to win an argument and make your feelings and ideas heard and allows you to attack your enemies without sounding like a drunk raving moron. Korea needs some debating practice.
“From what I hear from my students Koreans don’t learn debating at school.” They apparently don’t learn logic, either. Roh was totally off-base in attacking Japan for a nonexistent threat–the Japanese ships were heading out to survey the waters in the disputed economic zone (EEZ) in the area of Dokdo, so a) it was an economic issue, and b) it had nothing to do with the islets directly. Therefore, Roh not only overreacted, he didn’t even address the reason for the survey in the first place.
In the end, why would Japan give a shit about who Dokdo belongs if it controlled the EEZ around it? Korea doesn’t even use Dokdo to define the EEZ boundary, which again raises the question of why Roh was blathering on and on about it.
So again, after Roh’s tantrum Japan looks reasonable by comparison, and the economic zone issue is not addressed, allowing Japan to take another shot at it later.
Personally, I would have loved to have seen the Korean Coast Guard simply moon the Japanese survey ships as they approached Dokdo.
I guess the Japanese have made their own home-grown solution to the problem.
Sugar,
I guess you missed the point of my comment. I mentioned Japan’s military only to refute some nitwit who tried to say they didn’t have one. That person also tried to say that Korea would have a breeze of trying to take military action against Japan. At no point did I say Japan would start military action. Of course K-do and Aso don’t have the cahonies to attack Korea over Dokdo. They aren’t idots, well, not in that regard anyway. But personally, I would like to see Japan remain a “defensive” military, powerful or not. This ridiculous mantra of accusing and pointing and frothing at the mouth over Dokdo is gonna wake people up in Japan, and they’ll realize that after 60 years of leaving their warlike ways behind the rest of East Asia is only paying attention to a few right-wingers and is determined to relive their grievances over and over until they get some kind of a response.
As far as these international agreements go, what does the ICJ have to do with the 1905 K-T agreement or the Peace Conference?? Nothing, in fact the most significant difference is that South Korea and Japan have both willingly agreed to recognizing the International Tribunal on the Laws of the Sea’s jurisdiction on maritime matters that are brought to them. You can argue that they shouldn’t have agreed to that, but don’t say they were coerced or tricked into making that decision. Ironically, the United States never signed that agreement and isn’t technically bound by the Tribunal’s rules but even they have been forced to give up islands around the world that they contested with other countries. So stuff your agreement whinings in a sack.
Marmot,
I was glad to see you come out with a length comment laying out your opinion on this…..
By the way, is this actress Fueki Yumiko (Yumin?) popular in Korea?
Honestly said, I never saw her in Japanese television and never heard of her until recently.
I’ve searched the internet about her looking for photos and my impression was that she looks quite somewhat “typical” Japanese (I know it is basically wrong to use the word “typical”).
I’ve got the impression that Korean male favor more sexier looking or more gourgeos looking woman than the Japanese who favor more “cute(kawaii)” looking woman.
I am interested how the korean fans accept her.
I am interested how
Man, I called this weeks ago: a “victory” for Japan regardless of the outcome. What makes it even more painful to watch is that with Japan’s prompt withdrawal of the ships in exchange for Korea postponing its seabed renaming petition, Korea got the best outcome it could have had — only to have Roh snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Some in the Japanese media are challenging President Roh to take the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute to the International Court of Justice if he is so cocksure that Dokdo belongs to Korea. Others are asking what Korea’s colonization has to do with Dokdo/Takeshima? They say that evidence supporting Japan’s claim on the islets existed before then, and that colonialization is a separate issue.
http://kr.news.yahoo.com/servi.....setid=1331
Of course, the Korean government will not dare take the dispute to the International Court because they know they would lose. In the past, Korea has rejected calls for going to the International Court by claiming that there was no dispute. However, how can Korea continue to make such claims now after the events of the past week and President Roh’s little tirade yesterday? A person would have to be pretty stupid to believe that there is no dispute now.
Korea may have the right to refuse to take the dispute to the International Court, but after the events of the past week and Roh’s speech, Korea’s ignorant masses may start to ask, “Yeah, why don’t we take their asses to court? They don’t have shit proving their claim, right? Well, they don’t, do they?”
I think Korea’s big lie will soon start to unravel.
yes, it was a lose for korea from the start, when japan challenged the status quo.
more so after the negotiation.
what roh did was to put himself into a situation that korea has to send in the seabed naming - so that things will be rewind back what it was a week ago (prior the ‘negotiation’).
a better option for him would have been to give nothing in the negotiation.
re: sewing, no you not equal sewing….just anyone who thought said roh had an alternative.
I don’t think they know they will lose… it’s a tough call. But they sure as hell are reluctant to even consider giving any body with international judicial oversight even the slightest say in the matter.
“I think Roh’s real motive was to out mahatir_fan as a babbling fool.”
Roh is probably a mahatir fan, too.
“Personally, I would have loved to have seen the Korean Coast Guard simply moon the Japanese survey ships as they approached Dokdo.”
So would I. There was no need to receive the arguments from the island nation’s officials at the last minute. Korea is paying the price for electing a silly government twice in a row.
echowind wrote: “here in japan, most japanese i know really would rather just drop the whole issue. most would agree to roh’s speech, and i run with a pretty broad spectrum of japanese here. it’s clearly a koizumi issue pandering to the right wing and some provincial fishermen.”
Provide some evidence that prove most japanese agree to what Roh said. Can you even read Japanese? You really seems like a clueless person.
Korea is talking as if they ma