UPDATE 3: Japanese Vice Foreign Minister Shotaro Yachi will visit Seoul today to conduct negotiations. Watch for smoke from the embassy’s chimney. No word on whether the Korean Foreign Ministry has contacted Pearl Harbor about borrowing the USS Missouri for a talks venue.
UPDATE 2: The Mainichi Shimbun (via the Hanguk Ilbo) is reporting that should Korean patrol boats attempt to stop the Japanese oceanographic research vessels, the Japanese captains are under orders to retreat immediately. Quoting a Japanese Foreign Ministry official, the paper said this was a calculated move to allow the Japanese to claim to the IHO that it was unable to carry out its survey due to Korean interference. It also reported that negotiations with Korea are likely to fail, meaning the boats may be steaming for Dokdo sometime soon.
Oh, and one Ulleung-do civic group is talking about mobilizing some 300 fishing boats to surround the Japanese vessels should they approach Dokdo.
UPDATE: As of noon, the Japanese ships were still anchored in Sakaiminato’s outer harbor.
The Marmot’s Hole: Where it’s all Dokdo, all the time.
- Two Japanese oceanographic research vessels have left the port of Sakaiminato. It’s unknown whether they are heading to the waters near Dokdo or heading to another spot before continuing to Dokdo
- We can now place names on the ships–the Meiyo-maru and Kaiyo-maru. Both are 550 tons.
- Korea has deployed about 20 patrol boats of 500 tons or more, including the 5,000-ton Sambong-ho, around the Dokdo islets and East Sea EEZ. The Korean ships spent Wednesday practicing quarantine, search and seizure operations. A Coast Guard patrol aircraft has been placed on standby at Gangneung Airbase.
- Kim Seong-do, a 66-year old “resident” of Dokdo (he spent a month at a fisherman’s hut on the West Island until the end of March) told the Segye Ilbo, “Japan’s claim to carry out a survey in the waters around Dokdo, as a virtual attempt to dispossess Korea of Dokdo once again, is no different from a declaration of war.” He said if the weather is good, he’ll take his fishing boat out to defend Korean territory. Apparently, some other fishermen on Ulleung-do island have talked about blocking the Japanese ships should they pay a visit.
- Korea is not excluding the possibility of using commandos to seize control of the Japanese vessels should they attempt to break through the Korean barricade, according to the Kukmin Ilbo.
- Japan has managed to bring about bipartisan agreement in Korea. Congratulations.
- Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon hinted that the two Koreas might discuss the Dokdo issue during the next round of intra-Korean ministerial talks on Friday.
- Chief Cabinet Secretary Abe Shinzo, who claims that there are no problems according to international law with Japan carrying out the survey, said Korea and Japan have begun diplomatic contacts to facilitate a smooth solution to the crisis.
- The Korea Times takes a look at the tricky issue of defining the East Sea EEZ. One thing that was not addressed in the piece, but mentioned in my comments section, is whether Korea would be able to claim a 200 nautical-mile EEZ around Dokdo even if everyone and his brother recognized Korean sovereignty over Dokdo. As far as I know, according to the Law of the Sea, you cannot claim an EEZ from uninhabitable rocks. It’s interesting to note, however, that if Dokdo isn’t an actual “island” but Korea claims an EEZ around Dokdo anyway, it could always cite precedence from Japan, which claims a 200 nautical-mile EEZ around Okinotori Island. Karma.
- A couple of quotes from that Korea Times piece:
Prof. Lee Jang-hie of the Hankuk University of Foreign Studies in Seoul suggested civic groups need to step up public relations efforts on the issue in the international community, while the government, for its part, shifted from the past calm approach to a more active one.
Quick, someone call VANK! And the Dokdo Riders!
Judge Park Choon-ho of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS), however, stressed that the nation still needs to respond to the situation in a more coolheaded manner. He said a physical clash at sea that accompanies any human damage could inadvertently trigger a legal dispute, which would not be favorable for South Korea, which currently exercises the territorial dominium of Dokdo. (emphasis mine)
That last line might say a lot.
- The Chosun Ilbo looks at the submarine nomenclature issue.
- As if the backing of the CIA, Reuters and Canada wasn’t enough, the Japanese have enlisted in yet another ally in their nefarious scheme to steal Dokdo—the British government! According to the Japanese Coast Guard, the Japanese and British governments signed a deal April 17 to sell Japan’s English-language maritime maps through the United Kingdom’s overseas sales network. The Coast Guard said that with the help of the Brits, their English nautical maps, which are currently sold in 10 stores in nine countries, would be sold in 139 stores in 52 nations.
Remember, last time the Japanese and British formed an alliance, Tokyo followed it up by blockading Port Arthur and relocating the Russian Baltic Fleet to the bottom of the Korea Strait.
The Japanese will start with 14 maps of Tokyo Bay from July. No decision has been made on whether Japan will start selling nautical maps of the Dokdo area through the British sales network, but a Japan Coast Guard official told the Kyunghyang Shinmun that a decision would be reached through negotiations with the British.
The United Kingdom has used maps produced by the Japan Coast Guard to produce its own maps of Japan’s major ports and bays and Pacific waters, including Dokdo and the East Sea. With the agreement, Britain plans to affix the seals of both the Japanese and British governments on maps produced by Japan.
The problem, of course, is that Japanese maps mark the Dokdo islets as “Takeshima,” and the East Sea as the “Sea of Japan.” And British maritime maps are globally quite influential.
According to the National Oceanographic Research Institute, Korea produces its own maritime maps, but sells them only domestically. This is because Japan was selected by the International Hydrographic Organization as the country that draws up the nautical maps for Region K, which includes Korea. This means Japanese-produced maps marked “Takeshima” are getting international recognition. The National Oceanographic Research Institute has been working its butt off ahead of the IHO general meeting to convene in Germany this June on getting Dokdo marked, well, Dokdo. - Korean actress Yun Son-ha (Yun Sona) reveals more than a little flesh in a Japanese diet product advert.
114 Comments
hehehe…are you ready to RRRUUUMMMBBBLLLEEE???
Having researched this a bit a few years back, I do agree that Korea’s claim on the rocks is valid. And they have possession. That should be enough.
However, they have nearly collectively become ass-monkeys over this whole thing. If I hear another Korean talk about how their past has made them wary of foreigners, I’ll slap the crap out of them; if they had half as much collective memory about past wrongs as they claim to, they’d not be tossing Kim Jong il’s salad so thoroughly.
Oh, this is just another example of why U.S. troops will remain in Japan & Korea long, long term.
Richardson,
I have also researched the Dokdo/Takeshima issue, and every single Korean argument on the issue has a big hole in it. I do not know what your sources were, but they could not have been very objective.
On the other hand it is interesting how differently it is focused between Korean medias and Japanese Medias.
There is very little focus inside Japanese medias compared to korean ones.
What does it means?
All this “calm diplomacy” will be a blow to Ban Ki-moon’s UN SecGen hopes and this silliness on both sides of the Sea of Japan can’t be making Uncle Sam too happy when he requires adult help in dealing with North Korea.
Japan is certainly not blameless here, but I wish for once Korea would prove wrong the (likely) Japanese assumption that all they have to do is put an issue into play and Korean intemperance will take over and do damage to Korea’s cause.
Hell I wish the highly excitable nativists on these sites would prove that proposition wrong.
I have also researched the Dokdo/Takeshima issue, and have found the whole thing to be ridiculous. In protest of how lame this whole issue is I will cut off my finger and then deploy several 550 ton former ESL teachers to the scene.
”
On the other hand it is interesting how differently it is focused between Korean medias and Japanese Medias.
There is very little focus inside Japanese medias compared to korean ones.
What does it means?
”
/Means the same thing most things mean for Japanese people in Japan, concerning Korea….They don’t really care nor are they aware. The Japanese people who care are polticians in the leadership of the ruling Japanese Party, the Liberal Democratic Party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.....atic_party
Or they’re just nationlists.
Stark contrast to Korea, where everyone seems to be a nationalist.
LDP is a continuation of the political forces that were in charge of the Japanese Empire.
Japanese politics is a weird democracy, because LDP almost never lost any election, except for a few exceptions. HanNara, Min Ja Dang, etc, who are descendants of Park Chung Hee’s political forces, tried to model South Korean politics this way. Never defeated, always ruling.
Excerpt from the Chosun Ilbo:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....70031.html
KBS News also reports that because the Japanese vessel has the status of a warship, it has immunity from search and seizure on the high seas, which includes exclusive economic zones (EEZ). It also reports that both Japan and Korea agreed to that 1982 convention. However, KBS reports that whether than be tied to such a law, the Korean government plans intensify its respones based on how the situation develops.
Gerry writes: In other words, Korea seems to be saying, “If need be, screw international law.”
http://news.kbs.co.kr/article/.....67300.html
all korea has known from the japanese is aggression but koreans aren’t allowed to remember that even though japan can remember korea issued stamps about a place it owns. korea is absolutely right in it’s reaction- a reaction that the scuzzy expat likes to harp on rather than focusing on japanese provocation.
‘international community….’
doesn’t matter what the international community says. dokdo belongs to korea.
‘japan is mature…’
well then why is it causing problems? if it’s so mature, why is it trying to provoke korea over some rocks? why is it doing whatever it can to prevent the renaming of the sea of japan? if japan is so mature, why would it care?
if the ship enters korean waters, it should be seized and escorted out of korean territory. nothing wrong with that . totally within korea’s right.
japan is now the new menace of asia -once again.
I’m SO intrigued by all of this! I’m turning into a total news junkie, just waiting to hear what happens next! I keep checking CNN but I guess they don’t care about it. Strange. I’m sure the U.S. military is watching closely though…
” doesn’t matter what the international community says. dokdo belongs to korea.”
That’s funny. Sounds like my students! Except they can only manage to say “Dokdo is Korea!”
Alert!
The 4th Fleet Escort Force, as 5,005tons Hiei as a flagship, has left Maizuru Port in Kyoto to support the research vassals as South Korea’s Patrol ships Barricading the EEZ territory. The number of ships in the force is unknown.
The Roh administration should come down and step up to the negotiation table as Abe suggests. If Roh reacts, the issue will be recognized as an international territorial dispute and Ban would have no chance to be the UN honcho. If Roh backs off, well, that would certainly cost his presidential career……
Is Marmot personally in favor or against the Korean position?
Nulji has a bulletproof “debating” style:
“insert made-up quote here, attributed to anonymous scuzzy ex-pats”
“say something mostly fallacious and often about Japan vs Korea but not germane to the issue under discussion and claim it is a rebuttal”
“gratuitously diss westerners in general, but especially white people who live in/have lived in Korea or have the temerity to follow Korean affairs without having Korean blood”
“follow on with more straw-man arguments and repeat above steps”
It seems to me that so far, one of the most sensible and authoritative voices in this dispute so far has been that of Park Choon-ho (whom the Marmot quoted), one of the seven judges on the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea. (He represents South Korea; the other six judges represent Austria, Grenada, Japan, Poland, South Africa, and Tanzania.) He’s served in that capacity since 1996. (http://www.mofat.go.kr/me/me_a002/me_b005/1185688_973.html)
I’m not saying—and I’m sure he would agree (not that I know him personally)—that he’s not necessarily passing judgement on Dokdo’s legal status in offhand interview with a reporter…that’s not my point anyhow. But he’s clearly looking at the situation objectively in counselling the South Korean government to proceed cautiously, and clearly drawing on many, many years of highly specialized knowledge in exactly this legal area.
I’d like to know more about him—and his Japanese counterpart’s views on this matter as well (a Judge Yanai). Anyhow, Judge Park would seem to know whereof he speaks. Judging by a partial bibliography, much of his scholarly work has been in the area of just these kinds of disputes (especially in the South China Sea).
Here’s a sampling of some of the articles he’s written. Please note that I am NOT posting this as some kind of laundry list of “proof” of this or that a la Gerry or Frogmouth, but to point out that—judging by the article titles alone and where they were published—he (and I would presume, his Japanese colleague as well, though I don’t know what the latter’s views are on this) is clearly far more of an informed authority on these kinds of issues (maritime disputes over islands and nearby resources) than any politician—Korean or Japanese—or any of us measly commenters here on the Marmot’s Hole.
***
East Asia and the Law of the Sea. Seoul: Seoul National University Press, 1983.
“Fishing Under Troubled Waters: the Northeast Asia
Fisheries Controversy.” Harvard International Law Journal (1973): 270-296.
“Legal Status of the Paracel and Spratly Islands” (cowritten with Hungdah Chiu). Ocean Development and International Law Journal, volume 3, number 1 (1995): 1-28.
“Oil Development in the China Seas.” Asian Economies, (September 1984): 5-26.
“Oil Under Troubled Waters: The Northeast Asia Sea-bed
Controversy.” Harvard International Law Journal (1973): 221-269.
“The South China Sea Disputes: Who Owns the Islands and the Natural Resources?” Ocean Development and International Law, volume 5, number 1 (1978): 27-59.
(Sources: http://prio.no/page/Project_de.....45ba97f8cd ; http://www.cpas.c.u-tokyo.ac.j.....81-45.html)
…In the interests of balance, the Japanese Judge is former Amb. Shunji Yanai, elected to the tribunal in 2005, and replacing his compatriot Soji Yamamoto (http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2005/6/0623.html).
His background is in law as well, though with more of an emphasis on peacekeeping and treaty relations (http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/FR/NIKKEI/inasia/future/2005/2005pro_yanai.html). His domestic governmental appointments culminated in Vice-Minister for Foreign Affairs (1997-99), and overseas in his position as Japanese ambassador to the United States (1999-?) (http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/FR/NIKKEI/inasia/future/2005/2005pro_yanai.html).
Don’t know if he’s been interviewed in the Japanese press over the latest flare-up. When he was Vice Foreign Minister, he did summon the South Korean ambassador to protest Korean construction of wharf facilities on the disputed islands, but that was obviously in his capacity as a public servant. What his scholarly views on this matter are, I have no idea.
Ah Marmot, this brings back the good ol’ days when shit was flying left and right about Dokdo, Gando, and practically anything involving any combination of China, Japan, or Korea.
Well, that’s it for me as far as flinging s*** is concerned. What I really wanted to say—but I guess didn’t—is that would be nice to see more sensible, objective, reasoned voices from both countries weighing in on this matter, one way or the other. If there’s a Japanese scholar who’s spoken out on this issue and who is also an authority on maritime law, I’d like to know what he or she has to say, and I would respect his or her views on the matter as well.
The pronouncements of politicians (and I’m referring to those from both countries) or bloggers’ reactions thereto don’t really help me or anyone else come to a better and more informed understanding of this dispute.
Of course, this is all for nought anyhow, since another 300 comments are going to follow this one, and it’s going to be back to the same crap as usual.
…Oh, my other point was supposed to be that I hope Judge Park’s views are also being heard and discussed in the Korean-language media (and blogosphere). His words of warning vis-a-vis mishandling this situation and the possible consequences are clearly drawn from decades of scholarship in this area. And that was my original point in echoing Robert’s emphasis of his remarks: this is clearly someone who knows whereof he speaks, so I would hope that his views are respected in the Korean-language discourse on this subject.
Of course, this is all for nought anyhow, since another 300 comments are going to follow this one, and it’s going to be back to the same crap as usual.
One of the reasons why, even though I posted a little on it yesterday, I didn’t today and just pointed everyone here to Robby’s place. 99% of us know 99% of what is going to be posted before it is posted, especially when it comes to Dokdo and certain commentors. I’ll be a good portion of them have text files on their computer that they can just copy and paste into the comment section of whatever blog has brought up their favorite subject.
Screw it!
I, like Kushibo, long for something new to be posted on this subject.
Well, it looks like he is getting coverage in the Korean media. The Korea Times reference to him appears to derive from a Yonhap news article (via Naver) dated Tuesday the 18th (though it could originally have been written earlier). The article mentions an interview he had on KBS 1 Radio, and appears to have been picked up by most of the major papers (see the Naver News search results).
I’m with you, Plunge. Actually, I wouldn’t have posted a single thing on this topic at all, but this did seem to me to indeed be a new viewpoint, so I thought it worth examining in more depth.
And yeah, 99% of the comments can probably be boiled down to info coming out of either MOFAT (KR) or MOFA (JP), newspaper editorials, or Geocities pages of dubious provenance, all endlessly recycled in some kind of double-helix echo chamber.
Okay, that has to be my wittiest blog comment ever! My writing muses are alive and well! (/shameless immodesty)
Ah, there’s more to this story. (By the way, I guess I have to begrudgingly give credit to Gerry for bringing up a similar news story, but as Mr. Bevers has a well-known axe to grind in all this, that’s as far as my credit goes.) Judge Park—serving as he does on the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea—had this to say (not sure if it comes from the same KBS interview or not):
“But our fight cannot be confined to the seas; it is simultaneously being waged on the stage of the international community. A survey vessel is not classified as a civilian vessel like a fishing boat, but as a government ship. If it is seized by our maritime police, Japan would immediately refer us to the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea. Should that happen, the Dokdo islets and nearby seas would become a conflict area in the eyes of the international community, and chances are that a court ruling would be favorable to Japan. That is the very scenario Japan has in mind. Maritime law experts advise our maritime police to keep the Japanese ship out of the waters in question but refrain from seizing it” (Chosun Ilbo, “A Call to Diplomatic Arms” (editorial), 19 April 2006). (Hah! I’m a hypocrite, regurgitating an editorial despite what I just wrote two comments up!)
He serves on the court that would decide such a case, and is an expert in maritime law. So I hope that no matter how much a show of force South Korea decides to put on, there is not in fact any kind of engagement, per se.
By the way, the editorial goes on to say the following, but no source is indicated for the comment (it certainly doesn’t appear to have come from the the good judge), and for all I know it could just be wild speculation or fearmongering:
“The plan in Tokyo has long been to eventually take the Dokdo issue to the International Court of Justice. The tactic would use the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, where the conflict mechanism is simple, as a stepping stone. The planned hydrographic survey in seas near Dokdo is a small part of the big picture.”
The Chosun editorial is here.
Hmmm, in hindsight, maybe I should impose a one-comment-per-post policy on myself, a la Kushibo….
Yet one more thing that Ireland and Korea has in common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall . Although the way that this issue is being dealt with by the respective parties is ever so slightly different.
I liked reading Kushibo and G.Bevers go at it yesterday — one “floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee,” and the other could be nicknamed “steamroller.”
Korea has so many more urgent issues to deal with…but it’s human nature I guess to prefer simplistic disputes like this. As Slim said way up there, you would hope Korea could avoid overreaction that just damages its own cause. It’s more predictable than a lot of the commentors here.
FINGER-CHOPPING WACKY ALERT
Viewer discretion advised
Sorry, misattributed quote! The Chosun editorial quoted above is all the editorialist’s own words. Park was not quoted at all in the piece, and those are not his words. But he does serve on the ITLOS, so when he advises caution on the part of South Korea—because otherwise, a case might wind up before the very tribunal he serves on—it should be heeded.
Okay, I guess I really should call it a day now. That’s absolutely all I have to say on the matter.
Someone is fixating again . . . this type of reaction is just not realistic. Reviewing news reports and talking to people demonstrates this much. I only worry that if Koreans allow themselves to be carried away with negativism and drag out all the antiques that exist in their collective mentality, they will only invite the worst possibilities.
FINGER-CHOPPING WACKY ALERT
Viewer discretion advised
Wow, what a piss poor job the guy did. That knife is in maybe 3 inches? No upward cut? What a wuss.
Of course, i was waiting for Curzon to mention this, glad he didn’t disappoint!
Exocets are cool.
Uh… your point being what? That I have a tendency to point out the stabbing and slicing anti-Japan protestors in Korea inflict on themselves?
This is all working into what Japan wants: Korean rabid reactions that are highly likely to make the world go, “these people are crazy,” especially for the US since policymakers are now sensitive to anti-American ROK attitudes. I also notice that English and US news reports are now calling the Liancourt rocks “Disputed Islands,” which is also what Japan is hoping for.
See the Korean strategy in dealing with Japanese invaders.
http://www.joins.com/article/2269545.html?ctg=1000
1) Korean ships will warn Japanese ships to turn away.
2) Korean ships will ram those ships if they continue.
3) If Japanese ships come into Korean waters, they will be arrested and the ships seized.
No chance to use cannons or sea-to-sea missles. Too bad. Koreans just have made a new missle, ShinGoong, just for this scenario.
Man, Japan should just send our paddleboats filled with volunteer Yakuza and assorted unemployed rightwingers. Considering the ROK response, I think we’d bankrupt the defense department within the year.
Fu**ing Koizumi blinked. According to YTN, the f***ing ships are still in the harbor. Japan may try diplomatic route, as it should have done in the first place.
Fu**ing amateur Koizumi must learn how to conduct himself properly in the international politics. Or, he will be isolated even from the only friend, the U.S.A.
Do you remember that the U.S. denied Japan from gaining the membership into UN security counsel? The U.S. is not as good a friend as Japan thinks. Japan’d better behave.
baduk wrote: “Do you remember that the U.S. denied Japan from gaining the membership into UN security counsel? The U.S. is not as good a friend as Japan thinks. Japan’d better behave.”
You are wrong. “U.S. Backs Japan for UN Security Council Seat.” http://www.atsnn.com/story/153599.html
Baduk: you are mistaken if you think Koizumi has “blinked.” This all about posturing and negotiating. Japan has demands — if they are met, the ships need not conduct their survey. If they are not, they’ll set sail.
Junichiro Koizumi blinked. Japan doesn’t have much of a rightful demand. They don’t have much of a vested economic interest relative to South Korea. Koizumi and the LDP old guys are doing this because they want to annoy South Korea. Seriously, don’t they have much better things to do? I’m assuming most of the Japanese public don’t care and don’t know. Which is how most of them feel about Korea in general. What if George W. Bush tried to pull something like this with Cuba? Trying to reclaim American private holdings in Cuba? They’d slam him as a war mongerer (which is grossly unfair, in my opinion).
Koizumi’s foreign policy legacy with South Korea and China is a failure. His foreign policy with America is a success.
Koizumi. The samurai who asked for a duel, took out his sword and walked back home.
Funny how this naval event, which hasn’t even happened yet, is causing a lot more of a stir in South Korea than did the actual naval battles a few years ago against North Korea, in which half a dozen South Korean sailors died.
And funny how Japan is claiming a bunch of stupid rocks (and thus the rights to resources in the area) whereas it’s been the stated policy of the North Korean government that all of South Korea belongs to the north.
But they’re brothers after all, so no problem. Oh well, as a friend heard from someone in China, “No one screws a Korean like another Korean does.”
Japan sells a good portion of its goods to South Korea. Why make buyers angry?
It has always amazed me that South Korea buys quite a lot from Japan, although its citizens are very negative towards Japan. This wasn’t true with US relations, but it has become true of late with the US as well.
Although, there is this observational truth that good or bad relations with Japan, South Koreans consume a steady and large quantity of Japanese goods.
Any Korean with an intact vertebrae should be ashamed of that fact that they prefer to purchase Japanese items.
No one should be ashamed of purchasing Japanese products. After all, the quality is usually of the highest standards.
Or maybe it’s just that the Japanese items Koreans buy are the best on the market, and they know it? You make it sound as if the mighty Korea were doing insignificant Japan a tremendous favor by taking in its goods - free trade is all about mutually beneficial transactions, and by virtue of size Korea has a lot more to lose from a trade war with Japan than vice versa.
Thanks for providing more Korean ultranationalist material to laugh at, though.
mooting my own point, I present a scenario which may make sense in social activism, but no economic sense.
Let’s say South Koreans boycott all non-essential Japanese products, such as Doruko shaving razors, Pentel or Pilot writing devices, Japanese comic books, etc.
Would that be a great way to show up Koizumi?
Well, by doing so, Koreans would be hurting a huge number of South Koreans who are tied to the trade industry with Japan. Assuming a perfect boycott for a year, which is impossible based on historical observation, it would do more harm than good to South Korea.
It’s kind of like the case of calling for manufacturers to stop making cars, because cars pollute the world. Ask yourself what would happen to do the US economy if GM and Ford stop operating completely. Oh, my God. A major recession, even in a country the USA.
wjk,
Calm down.
What you see is not everything. Not buying Japanese products is to commit suicide. Even leading companies like Samsung or LG can’t do without Japan because they must import materials, components, production facilities, and even pay for “invisible” patents. Korea does have the ability to produce finished products but not the ones I mentioned above. Korea may refuse purchasing those,but again that’s killing themselves and the Japanese will only sell them to other manufactures.
Sorry maybe my english is not good enough but personaly I don’t see anyone who is writing “Boycotts japanese goods!”.
wjk explains things but he did not wrote to boycott.
Or am I wrong??
Someone said,
“Any Korean with an intact vertebrae should be ashamed of that fact that they prefer to purchase Japanese items. “
Well, I’m not calling for a boycott. I’m sorry that I write things in a wandering, round about way, that often leads people to accuse me of being “tipsy”.
But I do personally find it silly that Koreans buy menial non essential items from Japan for a higher price. Like a stick ball point pen. Paper you write on.
I see Korean unification advancing thanks to this dispute.
Read the Chosun editorial summation:
“If the government is so incompetent, the people must take over. Each citizen must make it clear that they are willing to safeguard the Dokdo islets and repel Japan’s stealthy invasion.”
This is only a shade different from the Rodong Sinmun calling on its people to become “human bombs” to guard the Great Leader.
If goodwill is still scarce between the two Koreas, let them utilize what they both have in abundance: bad journalism and jingoism.
This, in the english paper today.
“Yachi was expected to repeat Tokyo’s demand that Seoul withdraw its plan to submit a proposal to use Korean names for ocean floor in the East Sea during an international oceanographic conference in Germany in June.
During their first meeting on Monday, Yachi proposed scrapping the ocean survey in the Korean exclusive economic zone (EEZ), if South Korea decides to drop the naming proposal. ”
Strange attitutde coming from Japan, considering that they don’t supposedly care what the name of the sea is.
Japan does care for the name. “Sea of Japan” is defacto
for centuries but Korea challenging it as “East Sea”.
What a big deal!!
I agree with Slim. South Koreans are acting more and more like their irrational bothers and sisters in the north when it comes to international relations and observing international law.
Well, this incident definitely changed my view on Japan. In the past, when I heard some Koreans saying that Japan may try to take South Korean territory by force, I laughed it off. I said Japan had no ambition to play that old game again.
Now, I see I was wrong! Japan is trying to take other country’s land. By creeping in. And, by force later. The monster is back. And, its first target is Korea!
What a stupid people, Japanese are! Pushing South Korea to jump to the open arms of China. This will come back and bite them big time.
The following things will happen in Korea.
1) Korean Navy will get hugh amount of money to build up war-fighting ships and sea-to-sea missles. These navy ships will target Japan.
2) Korean Navy will build Aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines to attack Japan in the event of war.
3) Korea will speed up sea-to-land missle development that can carry nuclear/biological/chemical warhead to land targets such as Tokyo, Kyoto, Sanghai and Beijing.
Koreans should thank Japan for this wake-up call. Those waenoms are again into their old game, land-grabbing. Korean military budget will soar. Korea, not only have to prepare for NK and the Chinese attacks, but also these land-grabbing leaches from Japan.
Kill ‘em all!
baduk,
Are you really serious? This is only an territorial issue for a small island. Koreans seem to be more warlike, forgetting about the budget. What is the merit for Japan for
occupation of Korea? Nobody has that sort of idea.
Korea is like a woman who has been raped for 35 years by the same man. He now says he is a different man. But, he still keeps the porno tapes(Yaskuni) that he made her watch while he is at it.
He meets her in the public park by chance(Dokdo). He takes off his shirt blaming the weather.
Should she worry?
Should this man at least show some sensitivity to this woman’s plight? Or, is he thinking that those rapes were not rapes at all but consentual sex?
If I am the woman, I will kick the guy ass for taking off his shirt in front of her. If I had the gun, I will shoot first and then think later.
“I will shoot first and then think later”
Words to live by
Koreans just seems like they wanna get rid of the names that are related to Japan emotionally. They should realize that geography/history needs to be analyzed with academic analysis. The names have been used for a long time and I just don’t understand why they are trying to change them NOW. Why now? Why should the names be changed by only Korean perspective?
Well, to be fair, thanks to nation-centric education, Korea is the center of the universe in the minds of most of its tribesmen. Just as we each are the hero of our own personal narratives, so too are Koreans. And the corollary is that Korea is the hero of its national narrative. So is America — just check out our movies. That’s natural. Where we diverge is in the rational assessment of our own self-worth — while I’m the center of my own universe, I don’t arrogate to myself the role of center of THE universe. Sadly for them, Koreans do, and consequently Korea is the center of the entire universe.
I like the proposal to rename the Great Lakes according to their relationship to Korea.
Baduk,
I could see submarines but aircraft carriers? That would be a huge waste of money since anything that Korea and Japan would fight over can already be reach from planes based in Korea. Unless you think Korea should bomb Osaka or something.
“Koreans should thank Japan for this wake-up call. Those waenoms are again into their old game, land-grabbing. Korean military budget will soar. Korea, not only have to prepare for NK and the Chinese attacks, but also these land-grabbing leaches from Japan.”
Baduk
It is already here in Japan mentioned that the Korean government has began to enforce their navy and airforce and seeing their weapon, it is whispered that their imagenary enemy is Japan.
Your opinions are hardly new news.
A japanese male who has visited Korea or have the experience to came in close contact with a Korean male in the 90ies, would have commonly experienced the next three.
1)The bragging about the military service (military draft) and because of that the Koreans are “better” in person and stronger (most japanese educated in the post WW2 are told that militarism is a very bad thing, so this kind of bragging is a kind of “culture shock”).
2)The fact that there are many novels and movies which dream about a next war with Japan. The strict militarist flavour reminds strongly about prewar Japan. Additionaly sometimes when you got drunk, you’ve got suddenly an expression of respect against the japanese that they have once fought a desperat war against a mighty enemy (USA).
3)when you’ve got intimate with this person he would suddenly burst (albeit the relationship is very friendly)out that he want a war with Japan, and if the korean win this time then the Korean and Japanese becomes real friends.
If the Koreans want to overcome the most detestable inheritance of the colonial period, then that is “nationalism”. Nationalism came via Japan, and it has the stamp of the Japanese empire.
Remember, the korean word “minjok(and the equivalent chinese word Minzhu” has its origin in the Japanese word “minzoku” which was haphazardly invented by Japanese in the translation of the 19th century german word “volk”.
There is no equivalent word in the western language for “minzoku”. After the yugoslavian war began, western sociologist created the word “Ethno-nationalism” and that would be the nearest word.
“Nationalism” sucks, and the word “Minzoku (Minjok, Minzhu)” sucks. Both Korean and Japanese (and additionaly also the chinese) MUST RECOGNIZE this.
If the Korean (and the Japanese ofcourse) can recognize this then this would at least one step forward for the future (I know that alone is not enough).
Baduk bleats:
Well, good thing for the Koreans that they put so much into nurturing their relationship with the United States, then, huh?
cm, genie201:
The issue Yachi was referring to (as relayed by cm) isn’t the name East Sea vs. Sea of Japan per se, but the names of 18 underwater features. The Marmot posted a link to an article on the subject in his original post (http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200604/200604180027.html). The article isn’t very clear on this matter, but I’m assuming that the contested underwater features are in waters claimed by South Korea (though possibly in an area overlapping with what’s claimed by Japan). On that assumption, the opinion would be that the features should have internationally registered Korean names, rather than the Japanese names they have now.
(An analogous situtation would be, say, a French survey vessel sailing in English waters and registering French names with the International Hydrographic Organization (IHO) for features it found, with the consequence being that those names might then show up on maritime charts. I think the English would be pretty pissed about that. The London tabloids would have a field day! But in this case—not having seen a map of the features in question—I’m not sure what the legal status is of the waters in question. Are they territorial waters or part of an EEZ? Are they waters controlled by South Korea or Japan? Are there overlapping claims?)
That said, it looks like the South Korean case is weak for registering new names for any or all of the features in question, simply because of the amount of time that has elapsed. The first named undersea feature—the Tsushima basin extending south from near Ulleungdo and Dokdo—had its name registered by Japan with the International Hydrographic Organization in 1978. Since South Korea did not do anything about the issue for well over two decades, it may—according to a South Korean official—be very difficult to do anything about it now.
tomyam jipangu:
Thanks for writing what a Japanese male might have experienced socializing with Koreans in the mid 90s. That was a different perspective (from what I’m used to reading or hearing), and interesting points that you raised.
That said, I don’t think senior members of the Japanese government care one way or another how an everyday Japanese citizen sees this issue, except it affects the LDP one way or another in the polls. And this is the problem, I think. Both countries have major political events happening this year: the election of a new LDP leader (and Prime Minister) in Japan, and parliamentary elections in South Korea. It seems that some or all of the LDP leadership candidates in Japan and all of the political parties in SK are trying to position themselves by taking nationalistic stands on this issue.
Andy Jackson,
I have heard that fighter jets cannot drop a nuke bomb to Tokyo and come back to Korea without refueling. Since Korea does not have in-air refueling capability, Air Craft Carriers are needed. Korea has been building lots of tankers and it will be easy to use the same design. Besides, Korean Navy wants to be called “Carrier force Navy”. Koreans are into “status”.
tomyam jipangu,
Your observations are correct. Koreans and the Japanese are very similar in many ways. We can be good friends. After all, Han River miracle is nothing but assembling Japanese parts. I heard that recent Japanese economic recovery is due to Korean automanufacturers buying Japanese parts and paying loyalties for technology transfer.
We need each other. However, politicians like Koizumi only want to play power games against Korea. Since he represents Japan and I don’t see any street protests, I must assume all Japanese are behind this move. As I wrote before, for Koreans, any suspicious move by Japan can mean only war.
So, Japan needs to be very careful not to anger Koreans. Koreans have been raped by the “old” Japanese for thirty five years.
How come the Japanese people, who are known to be polite and highly cultured all around the world, do this insensitive and annoying thing to Koreans? If Korean ships approach one of your island in the name of measurement, would you be happy? Would you? Then, why do it? And, why now?
Koreans have only one response. Koreans will kill the Japanese. Even if it takes to going to bed with the Chinese. Koizumi must have known this and yet go ahead with it. Stupid Jerk! He is a new Tojo. He will bring death and destruction to Japan, when there is no reason to do so.
I’m currently living in the ESL ghetto of Vancouver. One of my friends has returned after teaching in both Korea and Japan for years, and has started teaching ESL here.
I went drinking with some of his students (Korean and Japanese) last night, and Dokdo/Takeshima came up. It didn’t get heated — no one wanted to argue — but the two Koreans stated that they think Dokdo is theirs.
One of the Japanese — on the other hand — said, “You want Takeshima? You can have it! We don’t care.”
I think this sums up the opinion of most people in the two countries.
2)The fact that there are many novels and movies which dream about a next war with Japan. The strict militarist flavour reminds strongly about prewar Japan. Additionaly sometimes when you got drunk, you’ve got suddenly an expression of respect against the japanese that they have once fought a desperat war against a mighty enemy (USA).
There is an upcoming movie to be directed by Kwak Kyung Taek which is going to be about North Korean commandos invading Japan and effectively taking over Kyushu Island. Just want you to know that it is based on a novel 半島を出よ (Get Out of The Peninsula) by Murakami Ryu, and it was the Japanese who approached Kwak about it, who was initially reluctant to do it.
and next week all of us can pontificate on how interesting it is that baduk got everything completely wrong. what are the odds???
What I fear is that by installing “tsunami” as the name used worldwide for waves generated by seismic activity, those devious Japanese are setting the stage to claim the entire sea bed.
Only visionary Koreans like Baduk get this, while the world sleeps — unaware that someday we’ll all need permission from Tokyo before doing so much as ordering uni at our local sushi bar.
From the Japanese side, there’s a half decent Asahi Shimbun article out today that seems to sum up recent developments.
http://www.asahi.com/english/H.....00351.html
In a nutshell, the survey is happening now—claims Japan—to prepare a new chart of the area in time for the next International Hydrographic Organization meeting in June. This appears to just be a gambit, however, since as mentioned before, Japanese Vice Foreign Minister Yachi met South Korean Ambassador to Japan Ra in Tokyo on Monday, and suggested cancelling the survey if Seoul drops its plans to raise naming issues at the IHO meeting. Japanse Coast Guard officials said the survey could also be cancelled if South Korea provided its own hydrographic data to them, which—claim the officials—has not been done in the past.
The thing is, does a new chart really need to be prepared? (And how exactly does one do the surveying and draw up a chart that’s going to be subjected to close international scrutiny in all of a couple of months?) Assuming that it does, either (a) the chart is necessary so that the IHO can make an informed decision, or (b) Japan needs the chart to bolster its own position. Even if (a) is partially the case, perhaps (b) comes into play as well, which may explain part of the uproar, perhas?. Then again, the popular uproar isn’t over undersea hydrography but sailing near Dokdo.
I don’t know.
Let’s put it another way. Japan may have a legitimate pretext for doing what it’s doing (surveying the area ahead of the IHO meeting), but how are new charts necessary when discussing names of places that have already been named and presumably mapped? Yachi is offering to cancel the survey if Korea takes the naming issue off the IHO table, but even if Korea were to go ahead with the issue at the IHO, I wonder if a new survey is really necessary (from a purely scientific, non-political point of view).
The whole thing seems to be a gambit, either to force Korea to drop the naming issue, or to provoke a Korean reaction for some reason, or to boost LDP polls at home. Is South Korea being played?
The naming issue may be more contentious than we realize. Not the East Sea vs. Sea of Japan matter, but the naming of undersea features. Korea may simply not want Japan naming features with Japanese names in a part of the sea that Korea considers to be within its EEZ, since there may be a concern that it would bolster Japan’s position in the issue. Likewise, Japan may not want Korea (re)naming features with Korean names in a part of the sea that Japan considers to be within its EEZ, since Japan might consider that to be bolstering the Korean position.
It seems that from a foreign relations point of view, the naming of hydrographic features is actually the much bigger bone of contention between diplomats than who’s doing what on or around of Dokdo&mdash. And has been pointed out on another thread here and also elsewhere (see the blockquote from the U of Hawaii), Dokdo probably wouldn’t even factor into a final settlement of the two countries’ EEZs, anyhow—i.e., who owns it doesn’t really matter when it comes to control of resources, except for the 12-mile-wide strip of territorial sea surrounding the two islands.
Diplomats and bureaucrats in both countries presumably know this. But if there’s a mutual suspicion on both sides that survey activity is somehow equivalent to an exercise of control over a country’s claimed EEZ, then that could indeed be a very real concern—not who actually owns the islands themselves.
“South Korea’s foreign ministry said later it had informed the United Nations that it would exercise its right to prevent Japan from unilaterally bringing the dispute before an international court.” (A link from UN World News)
Amazing…, and Ban is still aiming for the UN Secretary General?
Why did’nt Japan notify their measurement plan in advance and talk with Korean counterpart?
And, what is this red-herring about name changes?
Fu**ing waenoms’ dirty tactic to extract an upper-hand in their losing stance. Just kill ‘em.
In my mind, waenoms are just dirty and greedy bastards. Don’t talk, just kill.
I don’t think having a few miles in EEZ makes any difference in both countries’, Japan and Korea, own welfare, health, economy or military strategy.
Then, why is Japan instigating all these troubles? Well, only answer is that she like to fu** with Korea. Japan likes to toy with Korea and then step on Korea, just to show that Japan is above Korea.
Well, that happened 100 years ago. This time, Koreans are going to fight like old Samurais. Koreans are going to pay back for what these waenoms have done in Korea back then. Raping and killing Korean Queen. Dethroning and virtually exiling Korean King. Make all Koreans to serve their emperor.
Koreans can do it too. Or, die trying. Many Koreans will die, but we will take some Japanese with us. And, with China’s help, all of Japan.
Hmm, first you say
and then you say
Doesn’t it occur to you that your irrationally belligerent response over a worthless bunch of rocklets is achieving precisely the stated aim of making Koreans look worse than the Japanese? Frankly, it makes you and all the other Koreans screaming and shouting over a mere survey look like complete nutters: the Japanese have achieved a 6-0 rout and you angry Koreans are so busy indulging your emotions that you haven’t even noticed the world’s called it game, set and match.
Uh… your point being what? That I have a tendency to point out the stabbing and slicing anti-Japan protestors in Korea inflict on themselves?
This is all working into what Japan wants: Korean rabid reactions that are highly likely to make the world go, “these people are crazy,” especially for the US since policymakers are now sensitive to anti-American ROK attitudes. I also notice that English and US news reports are now calling the Liancourt rocks “Disputed Islands,” which is also what Japan is hoping for.
Can’t you see it doesn’t matter. What one Korean does won’t make a difference and what the US thinks of Dokdo doesn’t matter either. All it might do in the end is make Korea more friendly with China which is the last thing any of us need. It certainly won’t force Korea to go to the international courts and it certainly won’t force Korea to back down on its claims. The US isn’t going to all of a sudden stop supporting Korea over these rocks either.
They are Korea’s rock in the past, now and in the future. Time for all to realize this and get over it.
Oh, and bringing up the stomach stabbing thing is just stupid. Every country has its nuts, maybe it should start making headline news everytime some students in Japan try to burn someone to death or a Japanese guy chops his hand off.
But I guess some find it useful to point out individuals who are mentally challenged enough to do something like this.
It might be interesting to know if in the past, this gentleman’s family was scarred by the depravities of the Japanese.
Hans Castorp
You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how much out of context it is.
Speaking of WBC…how the Japanese and Japanse press expressed their feeling after loosing straigt two games in a row to Korean? They said “WBC does not mean anything. It’s just an exhibition.” But inside of your mind, you are the one who were so busy indulging your emotions that you haven’t even noticed the world’s called it game, set and match. After wining over third match, we all witnessed how the Japanese and Japanse media changed their attituted toward it and how they promoted it.
Very typical honne and tatemae of Japanese.
I am glade to see that both side seeks talks over this issue.
If a pickpocket snatches your wallet, you wouldn’t react placidly. A bird flying over your head cannot be stopped, but her weaving a nest on your head can be.
In the new Japan-Korea Fisheries Agreement, the two countries agreed to the establishment of “provisional common waters” around Takeshima/Dokto. However Japanese fishing boats are still shut out of the fishing grounds by the Korean patrol. On the other hand, Korean fishing boats often engage in illegal activity in Japan’s EEZ and the Korean police protect them. http://imgnews.naver.com/image.....2v2240.jpg
Who is being greedy? Whether Koreans today like it or not, the government signed the agreement. If Korea consider itself as a civilized country, they should follow the international rule.
I agree with genie201.
That is the problem seen from the Japanese side. The Korean government signed the treaty but virtually they ignore it.
Illegal fishing into the Japanese side by korean fisher is a general problem for a long years.
Exhaution of fishes seems to be a serious problem in this water. So the local Tottori fishermen’s association was trying for long years to resolve this problem by direct talks.
http://www.nnn.co.jp/news/051126/20051126002.html
If the korean government had managed to strictly obey this treaty, the tottori prefecture WOULD HAVE NEVER NEEDED TO ENACT “THE DAY OF TAKESHIMA”.
On the other hand, as Asahi Shinbun reports, the Korean government has done the same research 4 times in a row in 4years ,a part of Japanese EEZ included(ignoring the protest of the Japanese government).
According to Asahi shinbun, the japanese government has asked to the Korean government at least to share the datas but they refused.
There is deep distrust against the Korean government on the Japanese side. I oppose the diplomacy of Koizumi, I oppose his visits to Yasukuni, I even oppose the current research (especially the timing), but I think the distrust of the Japanese government is valid to some extent.
No wonder that they are suspecting that renaming of the “sea of Japan” and some underwater maps is the not the only aim of the Korean government. What they have done with the fishing treaty is a good example.
Least of all Koreans, who would only prove themselves overemotional fools if they surrendered their relations with Japan and America over worthless rocks only in order to once again become the Chinese vassals they used to be.
Just keep chanting that like the Nembutsu while hoping it’ll become true … How it’s possible for you to make such an unqualified assertion about a piece of land with such murky title is beyond me. To say that you’re a Korea-partisan would be an understatement.
Except this isn’t a “pickpocket” snatching what he and everyone else knows is yours, nothing’s actually been “snatched” yet, and only a reckless nutter would react with such threatening behavior towards an opponent 2.5 times as populous and 4 times richer. The world would be an unbearably violent place if all neighbors with minor territorial disputes acted in the childish way so many Koreans and their partisans have been doing, and I say this as someone who would be perfectly happy to see Dokdo nuked so these ridiculous disputes would be over and done with.