UPDATE 6: The most looked-at piece over at Naver.com? Actress Kang Hye-jeong and actor Jo Seung-woo are apparently considering marriage.
UPDATE 5: The Chosun Ilbo runs through all the possible scenarios that could take place at this point. Will probably be translated into English later.
UPDATE 4: The JoongAng Ilbo looks at Japanese strategy. Basically, what the Japanese have done is send signals that they would not send the research ships if Korea agreed not to submit Korean place names to the IHO, but at the same time setting sail their boats from Tokyo without waiting for a Korean reaction to their offer. The Japanese figure it’s a win-win situation;with the Korean media calling for blood, Tokyo believes Seoul will turn down their offer, and if the Koreans seize their ship, international opinion will go Japan’s way, and the Dokdo islets will become a “disputed territory.” And if Seoul accepts the Japanese offer, well, that’s all good, too.
UPDATE 3: Two Japanese research ships have arrived at the port of Sakai, Tottori Prefecture.
UPDATE 2: Joel probably puts it best:
This will be much like watching drunk ajeosshis fight it out on the street. There will be no punches or any sort of strike that could cause any damage, but there will be a lot posturing, yelling, the occasional shin-kick, and maybe an inadvertent headbutt if one of them loses his footing because he’s had too much to drink. Ouch.
UPDATE 1: Here are the fighting ships of the Japan Coast Guard’s Hydrographic and Oceanographic Department. And here’s the link to the homepage of the Korean Coast Guard.
ORIGINAL POST: Kyodo News is reporting that a Japanese maritime research vessel has left Tokyo for Dokdo. It should arrive in the Korean EEZ on May 20.
The Korean coast guard has responded by deploying 18 patrol vessels of 500 tons or more along the East Sea EEZ and around Dokdo. The flagship of this armada is the 5,000-ton Sambong-ho.
President Roh seems a bit pissed (in Korean, here):
Roh said that the government is considering shifting to a more aggressive stance in countering Japan’s bids to claim the East Sea islets.
“These are acts by an ultranationalist government to justify its history of aggression and challenge the future order of Northeast Asia,” Roh said referring to the maritime survey along with controversial Japanese history textbooks and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi’s repeated visits to Yasukuni Shrine.
Don’t hold back, Mr. President. Tell us how you really feel.
“This is not only a historical issue but a matter of future security strategy,” he said. He was speaking during a meeting with leaders of political parties to discuss how to deal with what the Korean government regards as a violation of territorial waters.
Then for a little Korea Herald-style humor:
For decades, Korea had chosen to pursue a low-key diplomacy in dealing with its neighbor’s provocations to avoid territorial disputes that could eventually benefit Japan.
Ah, but the days of “quiet diplomacy” may be over:
But all this may change, the president said. “Now may be the time to decide whether to continue on the path of our previous diplomatic strategies,” said Roh.
Song Min-soon, a senior presidential security adviser, said, “Instead of remaining passive, we need to respond aggressively to provocations carried out by Japan.”
No more “Sunshine” for the Japanese, I guess.
UN General Secretary Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon joined in:
Speaking at a parliamentary committee on unification and foreign affairs, Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon further supported the possible shift to a hard-line stance by saying the government can afford to risk its ties with Tokyo in exchange for rights over Dokdo.
“The government has always put higher importance on the Dokdo issue than on the Korea-Japan relations. We plan to take various measures to fortify our effective control over Dokdo,” said Ban.
Let the fun begin!
124 Comments
Oh man, this is just getting out of hand—and I’m referring to both countries’ handling of this matter. Regardless of who’s right or who’s wrong, this is just escalating beyond reason. Is dispatching 18 boats there a show of force, or an overreaction? Is Japan merely provoking this kind of response as a baiting tactic? There’s no easy answer.
Therefore—in the spirit of doing something, anything to tone down the tension in that neck of the woods—I propose something everyone can agree on (hopefully). If there’s one thing that unites Koreans and Japanese, it’s their common love of squid, whose provenance is of course the waters surrounding these disputed islands. So I say: (1) hand control of the islands over to a completely disinterested party (say, Belgium); (2) declare 2006 (or what’s left of it) the Year of the Squid, and have a summer-long Dokdo-Takeshima (or in Japanese, Takeshima-Dokdo) squid festival on the islands. Ship in BoA—who’s apparently popular in both Korea and Japan—to supply the music. Run shuttle ferries from Pohang and Shimane, and let everyone engorge themselves on squid, glorious squid! Oh, and some Belgian chocolate, too.
…And throw in some caviar from the Caspian sea and a few samovars of tea, as a nod to the Russians, who are a hop, skip, and a jump away from the islands but are wrapped up in their own dispute with Japan over another set of islands. Come to think of it, maybe we should hand over control of Kuril/Chishima and Diaoyu/Senkaku over to the Belgians as well, while were at it. (And if Belgium isn’t interested, then give ‘em to some other country without a dog in these fights, like Bhutan, Trinidad and Tobago, or Vanuatu.)
But the days of South Korea’s “quiet diplomacy” (that is, see no evil, hear no evil, condemn no evil) go with North Korea. Seoul is living up to the “shrimp” role among the whales.
…Serve up some yummy shrimps and prawns, too, at this festival. But whalemeat is frowned upon these days, so skip that.
This must be what Seoul meant by “responding in a cool-headed manner” to Japan’s “provocations.” What a bunch of 12-year-olds.
Yes. Japan wants to provoke Seoul to embarress Roh et al on the world stage.
Whoops, I inadvertently let some seriousness slip into my comments there.
Michael, it wasn’t “Seoul,” it was Han Myŏngsuk, the PM nominee, who said that about a cool-headed manner. She’s not yet in office, so why bother listening to her?
But really, while I don’t like the escalation (and it is an escalation on both sides), what else is Seoul to do but to respond in a way that shows they won’t tolerate in incursion into what they call their EEZ based on their long-time claim to an island they’ve solely occupied for fifty years?
If the tables were turned and, say, Seoul were sending ships into the EEZ determined by a Tokto/Takeshima long occupied by Japan, I would expect Japan to react in a similar way.
One country claims it, and another country claims and controls it. The country that controls it really has no choice but to demonstrate a willingness to defend its control.
If, for example, it had turned out that China’s “mistake” was what they really intended, Japan would have been acting reasonably to send ships to the Chinese ships in its EEZ determined by its legitimate coastline.
I do agree that the Japanese government is putting the Korean government between a rock and a hard place over this. Korea’s options are severely limited. Do nothing and look weak? Do what they’re doing, and send half of their coast guard over there, at the risk of appearing to overreact? Or something in between—like summoning the Japanese ambassador to the Blue House for a “stern talking to”?
…Which is why—seeing no easy solution to this in the short term—I suggested something that was of course completely flippant and doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in you-know-where of happening, but would actually solve the problem.
Kushibo, several gov’t officials said the same or similar in recent weeks. Maybe if the Korean gov’t hadn’t issued “Dokdo” stamps in 2004 that its citizens mailed off to Japan this issue would not have “escalated” to begin with. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember Japan doing anything comparable at the central gov’t level before that. EEZs are always a source of contention, but I consider sending 18 coast guard boats after one research vessel to be amateur and counterproductive, two of the main characteristics of the Roh gov’t.
Kushibo:
Agreed. What Roh has to work on is not sounding like he’s throwing a temper-tantrum, and drop the Kim Jong Il-style rhetoric.
Take a look at how Japan is handling the East China Sea gas dispute to see how the reactions are notably different, i.e. the Japanese government sounds like it’s run by adults.
Agreed. What Roh has to work on is not sounding like he’s throwing a temper-tantrum, and drop the Kim Jong Il-style rhetoric.
Curzon, I agree with your assessment of Roh.
Take a look at how Japan is handling the East China Sea gas dispute to see how the reactions are notably different, i.e. the Japanese government sounds like it’s run by adults.
Well, things might have turned out a little less cool and calm had China NOT made a mistake (as they stated) about the latitude of their ban on shipping.
The Asahi news paper here in Japan has reported that there are several reasons for this action.
1) That it was revealed that the Korean Government is trying to propose officaly to change the name of the “Sea of Japan” to “East Sea” in some international conference in June. Therefore the Japanese Government has planned this research to gather underwater information to counterargue this proposal.
2) Albeit the opposition of the Japanese Government that the Korean Government has done research in the same water for 4years in the row.
But personaly I think Abe “f***ing” Shinzo is leading this action to stirr up emotion between Korea and Japan, and to secure his position in the LDP election against Fukuda.
It’s a nightmare if Abe becomes the next PM.
And the statistics shows that womens support him far more than men.
Unbelievable!!
I take it someone’s a little sore over Aso’s refusal to back his UN candidacy.
Kushibo: a little less cool and calm, yes. But Japan got that by calmly sticking to its guns, talking, negotiating, followed the rules of diplomacy and the arts of war and finally is starting to see some positive movements. Considering the groundwork they’ve done, there are no big surprises.
Well, Curzon, China saying they had given the wrong latitude certainly went a long way toward resolving this, and that likely had little to do with Japan calmly sticking to its guns.
And speaking of Japan quietly sticking to its guns…
…I wonder what is behind the Coast Guard not informing the PM’s office over this. I wonder if they were worried that Aso might be reacting a bit like Ban right now. Just wondering, not saying.
Japan’s position in most of the “disputed” territories, mostly from pre-1945 claims, put it in a position where it can do exactly this type of thing. Japan can afford to “calmly stick to its guns” because it is not in a position where it has to demonstrate sovereignty and defense over areas under control.
It can poke the eys of the Russians over the Kurils and the Koreans over Tokto, if the government so chooses, because those other countries are tasked with “defending” the sovereignty of the territory they control, while Japan has little to do other than send boats over. The converse is true, as we saw in June 2005, regarding Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese claims to the Senkaku Islands, occupied by Japan.
If Koizumi’s intent right now is to embarrass Roh, I wonder what Japanese voters think about the Tokyo racheting up tensions for such ephemeral political gains. It seems about as wisely thought out as Roh’s “diplomatic war.”
How on earth will “underwater information” do anything to influence what a sea should or shouldn’t be named?
Are the Japanese expecting to discover an underwater cache of old maps?
Who is provoking who? The Korean gov’t issued those “Dokdo” stamps in 2004, and Koreans stuck them on postcards and mailed them to Japan. If Korea were run by mature people it would not have started this nonsense.
Before this gets too out of hand (at a measly 18 comments, it’s still early days)… squid anyone?
Agreed that Korean reactions are typical overreactions.
But Michael, you can look at it the other way as well. If Korean gov’t mailed them stamps and postcards, how much effort does it take for Japan to ignore such nonsense? Who cares if Koreans want to name Sea of Japan, the East Sea? Let them. What’s the point of Japan’s campaign to make sure it remains ‘Sea of Japan’? Why does Japan send a ship when it knows full well what kind of reaction there will be across the sea?
If Japan is so mature as everyone claims it to be, why do they not just drop their claims over a bunch of rocks that no one other then Korea cares about - give that left over bone to the dog?
But not. All this only tells me only one thing. Japan is just as immature as Korea. They’re just better than the Koreans at hiding and wrapping everything up in shroud of diplomacy.
CM, maturity is when you don’t issue the stamps in the first place because you are confident enough of your territorial claim that you don’t have to bully your neighbor over it.
Also, what exactly does Japan do to campaign for Sea of Japan? It’s already the name of the waters, and frankly no one gives a damn about that except Korea.
Marmot, at least one ajossi seems to be itching for a fight:
In a similarly stern warning, Song Min-soon, chief secretary to President Roh Moo-hyun for unification, foreign and security policy, said Wednesday morning that Japan should take full responsibility for any physical clash that may stem from its invasion of South Korean waters.
“It is Japan that has worsened the situation. In case of any physical clash, Japan should assume full responsibility,” Song said in an interview with an MBC radio program.
http://english.yna.co.kr/Engne.....703E8.html
It’s getting stupider and stupider.
I don’t think you got my point.
Maturity is when you don’t issue the stamps in the first place because you are confident enough of your territorial claim that you don’t have to bully your neighbor over it.
But it’s also maturity that neighbor should be mature enough not be bullied over some bunch of stamps. How does that effect the national security of Japan? - pictures of some rocks on a stamp. Isn’t that like “the little boy called me names so I’m going to call him names”?
Also, Michael, it is not true that Japan has absolutely done nothing to counter Korea’s campaign to name the sea to the East Sea.
Here is the background to this naming conflict going back to Japan’s colonial rule over Korea. Since 1992, Korea has proposed to change the sea’s name, and each time, Japan objected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....ng_dispute
You are wrong, Korea isn’t the only country that cares about the name of the sea. Apparrantly Japan does care greatly too. If they didn’t care that much, Korea would have had their stupid name change by now. They haven’t, because Japan cares a lot.
CM:
So you’re saying Japan should tolerate Korea’s shitty manners.
Japan doesn’t care — Korea does call the Japan Sea the East Sea. Japan is opposed to Korea trying to change the international name of the body of water.
Japan would probably be willing to give up their claim if it was just the rock at stake, and the EEZ and fishing rights were preserved. However, Tokyo will never bribe Korea in exchange for what is nothing more than goodwill.
No, it’s like when your idiot neighbors try to provoke you, you condemn the act. Japan did not “call Korea names” at the time, it simply condemned the act, which is completely within the bounds of diplomacy.
Curzon, Korea issued those stamps after a Japanese prefecture declared a Takeshima day. I guess the Koreans would say the “shitty manner” started with Japan. So round and round we go. Who started what first? I just don’t understand Korea’s reactions. But then can I let Tokyo’s behaviors off the hook either. It’s quite puzzling how many people overlook Japan’s reactions. I guess it’s easier to poke fun at the dog that’s barking louder.
CM, I’m fairly certain that the stamps were issued in January 2004, long before the prefecture called for Takeshima Day–and you’re comparing the central Korean gov’t act with a local prefecture’s act, and they’re not on the same level.
“Since 1992, Korea has proposed to change the sea’s name” just proves my point, only Korea gives a damn what it’s called — no other country has proposed a name change for it, we don’t hear Russia chiming in on the matter.
Way off. ROK Takeshima stamps first issued in 2002 and reissued January 16, 2004; Takeshima Day declared in March 15, 2005 (and by a prefectural government — the stated reason was that “We proposed Takeshima Day because the Foreign Ministry failed to do anything about Takeshima”).
Welcome to Diplomatic War. Seoul is losing.
Kushibo brought up a great point. If a Korean ship was approaching Japanese territorial waters, Japan’s response would have been more severe than what Koreans have done up to now.
Maturity? What the f*** is that? Everybody think what they want to think anyway. Winner takes it all! A victor can re-write the history. Even a loser, Japan, has done that.
The Japanese are acting very childish and belligerent, ignoring other countries’ views. They are back to 1940s and f***ing Tojo is back. It is time for Korea to use maximum force. Approach the damn ship and play criss-cross with the ship. Bang into it by mistake. Capsize it if possible.
No more f***ing Japs in Korean waters! Kill them!
The Korean government issued Dokdo stamps in 2002 and 2004, and Takeshima Day was declared only after Korea decided to issue the second batch of stamps. Korea also declared Dokdo and the area around it a national park in 2004. And, as has already be stated, Korea, itself, has been conducting surveys in the disputed area for the past three years. So it is not Japan that has been fanning the flames, but Korea.
Japan has been claiming Dokdo since 1905, and has been claiming that Korea has been illegally occupying the islets since the 1950s. However, it was not really an issue until both Korea and Japan claimed 200-nautical-mile EEZs in the 1990s. When Korean reporters ask the Japanese ambassador or the Japanese prime minister about Dokdo, they naturally have to insist that the islets belong to Japan. That is not provoking; that is simply stating their position. Issuing Dokdo stamps and declaring the area a national park is provocation, which the Japanese government has simply been responding to.
I have read that Japan’s survey of the area is legal under international law. It is only Koreans who are claiming it is illegal.
Baduk:
Your scenario is exactly what Tokyo wants (albeit with no loss of life): the Korean navy attacking a unarmed sovereign ship in (what it claims are) its own waters.
I do not know much about International Laws governing sea surveys. But as I understand it, foreign governments who wants to survey areas that are under another foreign country’s EEZ must ask for permission to do so. As it happens, Korea claims EEZ over the same area that Japan claims EEZ, and they have not given permission to Japan. So naturally, to Koreans, this is illegal. On the other hand, to the Japanese, this is legal because to them all they’re doing is surveying their own EEZ. Gbevers, I think you have read only the Japan’s claims under the international law, but ignored Korea’s same claims.
“Your scenario is exactly what Tokyo wants (albeit with no loss of life): the Korean navy attacking a unarmed sovereign ship in (what it claims are) its own waters.”
So in other words, Tokyo is willing to risk loss of lives on their own ships to bait the Koreans into a bigger conflict. How mature.
“The government has always put higher importance on the Dokdo issue than on the Korea-Japan relations.”
Yeah, good move. Throw away relations with the second largest economy in the world for a pile of stupid rocks. Genius.
Korean Navy should plan a military exercise at the area where this f***ing ship is supposed to do measurement. The ship did not clear with Korea about its schedule.
Do some Navy missile, artillery and torpedo training at the exact spot where this stupid ship is supposed to do measurement.
Shoot the ship by mistake. It is a mistake. What the f*** Japan will do, when it is a mistake? The ship should not have come so close to Korean waters in the first place.
Welcome to Diplomatic War. Seoul is losing.
Well, at least they still have the islands.
Way off. ROK Takeshima stamps first issued in 2002 and reissued January 16, 2004; Takeshima Day declared in March 15, 2005 (and by a prefectural government — the stated reason was that “We proposed Takeshima Day because the Foreign Ministry failed to do anything about Takeshima”).
Yeah, yeah. And in 2002 Japan brought up the issue in textbooks, blah blah blah.
BOTH SIDES have engaged in tit-for-tat eye-poking when it comes to making claims within their own state about their sovereignty of the islets.
As for claims that Korea has been over-reacting, I agree that “diplomatic war” (last year’s sentiment, which seems to be backed up by Ban this year) I would like to point out that (a) Korea has so far backed off plans to make all of Ullŭng-gun County (which includes Tokto) a national park and the police guarding the island have not (yet) been replaced by the military. Korea has been keeping some things that could be ratcheted up pretty low-key.
I agree that “diplomatic war” –> I agree that “diplomatic war” is the wrong way to go.
“Throw away relations with the second largest economy in the world for a pile of stupid rocks. ”
Stupid as it is, I think Seoul is calculating the fact that Korea buys 20 billion dollars more from Japan, then Japan buys from Korea each year. That may have something to do with their cold and less than friendly approach to Japan.
Kushibo: You still seem to have missed the point that Takeshima Day was the act of a local government.
Next, from Bloomberg:
“Your scenario is exactly what Tokyo wants (albeit with no loss of life): the Korean navy attacking a unarmed sovereign ship in (what it claims are) its own waters.” -Curzon
Maybe. But some thinking Japanese persons will wonder why the government has sent the ship so close to Korean waters in the first place.
Koi’s plan may backfire.
Attack the ship first! And, we will see what develops afterwards. Koreans are very similar to the U.S.; this is Korea’s Cuban missle Crisis. Koreans will not let this ship come any close to Korean waters by Korean definition.
Korean Navy and Marine Police are ready to seize the ship if it comes close to Korean waters. Let’s see who wins. Koreans will fight one battle at a time till this threat is gone.
We will fight them in the air, we will fight them in the sea and we will fight them when they land. We will continue till we have the victory!
Baduk: you are knee-slapping hilarious!
Go ahead Roh and team. Go nuts on Dokdo, ruin the relationship with Japan, then make sure the FTA goes down in flames. And while you’re at it, why not kill the alliance with the US? Diplomacy by moronic leftists.
Roh’s gov’t picks a trivial issue like this to talk trash because it knows that Japan is an easy target. Notice that they never, ever condemn North Korea, not even when it kills their soldiers, kidnaps their citizens and reneges on every agreement it makes with the South.
“Japan has been claiming Dokdo since 1905,”
–Thus, Dokdo was just an uninhabited island since founding of mankind, until in 1905, when Japan was swallowing Korea, and getting ready to soak up Manchuria, the east coast of China, and the Philippines, some islands like Guam, which will later become US territory…say, is Guam a US land, because the US got Guam as an expanding colonial power?
Oh, yeah, I see your point now, Westerners. It’s not really about who had historical occupation, but it’s mostly about who got to screw over the weak and vulnerable during the last 100 years. That’s what legitimizes ownership.
Koizumi is a piece of crap. He’s probably pretty good on internal politics, but objectively, he has stirred up ill feelings during his tenure against China and South Korea. His predecessors were more sensitive not to do what he did.
Why doesn’t the rest of East Asia just offer up Japan all uninhabited islands? After all, Japan had these islands during World War II, probably, playing the island hopping game, that prompted the US to nuke it twice.
The common theme among all these uninhabited isles is that Japan claims these places no older than 100 years old.
Japanese people are good at copying, taking what’s not really their own, and making it better. By making it better, they appeal very well to people who don’t have much to hate about them in the first place.
I’ve been told by a South Korean Vietnam War veteran who happens to drink a lot everyday, that Nori is (Gim). This seaweed food came from Korea to Japan during the Chosun era. Now, the world knows it as Nori. Japanese people are like this. They won’t try to pull this sort of thing off Western Europeans, but everyone else is fair game to be cheated.
South Korea is still the weak. Like Baduk said, if South Korean vessels did the same to Japanese territory, they would have been sunk or captured.
Like the article says, Japan is doing this, based on planning out a win-win-win strategy that was all pre planned.
Who’s instigating? Japan.
Who has to give in and watch to let the whole things pass? Korea.
This is f–ked up beyond words. Korea doesn’t have to go to no ICJ. That San Francisco treaty wasn’t fair at all to Korea. Who the hell wants an indifferent world body to decide matters for South Korea? Not the Koreans.
The cited Jonnang Ilbo analysis of the nefarious Japanese strategy is interesting in light of the article in its sister English language paper The Joonang Daily today: http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....09041.html. There the Joongang reports that, contrary to the the shrilly rising crescendo of cries of victimization emitted from Korean
pie-kimchi-holes for the past several day, its Korea that pulled the trigger on its latest temper tantrum by forwarding a proposal to the International Hydrographic Organization to rename the sea valley now officially called “Tsushima” to “Ulleung”.And Korea thought that Japan was just going to stand idly by while Korea attempted to bolster its claims to Dokto thereby? Their move is any less provocative than Japan’s assertion of its right to map territory, which it now is seen is simply a defensive manuever?
So typical, Call a Koreans’ bluff or stand-up to his impertinence in trying to get by stealth what to which he doesn’t have a clear right or thinks he can get without honest bargaining and it’s “You die, I die” time.
Why don’t these stoneheads grow up and sit down and negotiate the fisheries and other uses treaty with Japan that they’ve been stonewalling on for decades?
Are you confusing Japan with North Korea, perhaps?
Korea’s situation in that regard was quite similar to Austria’s following World War II I’d think.
Yeah, I hear violins playing, poor, poor Korea…maybe it wasn’t a good idea to issue those Dokdo stamps, reissue them and let Koreans mail them to Japan. It probably also wasn’t a good idea to threaten a physical attack on the survey boat.
“Who the hell wants an indifferent world body to decide matters” If they can’t be bought off then screw them, huh?
Kushibo: You still seem to have missed the point that Takeshima Day was the act of a local government.
I didn’t mention Takeshima Day. That was someone else.
wjk wrote:
some islands like Guam, which will later become US territory…say, is Guam a US land, because the US got Guam as an expanding colonial power?
Guam was a part of the US when Japan took it over at the beginning of World War II. The US won it from the Spanish in 1898. You may be thinking of Saipan and the rest of the Mariana Islands, which the US did win from Japan.
By the way, WJK, your last two posts sound like you’re a little tipsy.
It’s a pretty sad situation. However, no matter what Korea does, I think Japan will never give up Dokdo. Koreans have a lot of pride. However, I think Japanese have even more. They are the second richest country in the world, and they once dominated Asia with their military might. Their ego, wont let them give up Dokdo, which has no economic value to them. (Do you think squids and fishes are that important to an economic powerhouse like Japan?)
WJK Wrote:
Gerry writes: Except for Koreans, who else in the world would worry about the Japanese stealing there food ideas? That is the perfect example of how petty Koreans can be when it comes to Japan.
Kushibo wrote: “Yeah, yeah. And in 2002 Japan brought up the issue in textbooks, blah blah blah.”
Gerry Writes: I think you are mistaken, Kushibo. Wasn’t it Korea that brought up the issue of textbooks?
Kushibo wrote: “BOTH SIDES have engaged in tit-for-tat eye-poking when it comes to making claims within their own state about their sovereignty of the islets.”
Gerry writes: It has not been “tit-for-tat,” Kushibo. While Japan has simply been stating its position of the islets, Koreans have been going red in the face while threatening diplomatic war, cancelling summit meetings and other scheduled gatherings, and squaring off with the Japanese to protect a pouching fishing vessal who had kidnapped Japanese naval officers. Japan is dealing with these issues very maturely while Korea is acting like a spoiled, little brat.
I’m not entirely in the loop when it comes to international disuptes over territory, but considering that Korea has the land now (9/10ths and all), under what sort of scenario could Japan force it out of Korean hands and into theirs?
To put it another way, were Korea to simply ignore such stunts and other comments vis-a-vis Dokdo… with zero pushback, could Japan take it from them?
And thanks for the ehads up about Kang Hye-jung and Jo Seung-woo. Between that and the enws about Tom Cruise’s new kid, my daily desire for worthless celebrity gossip is nearly quenched. Woo hoo!
This is such a great story. Can anyone else think of a similar situation elsewhere in the world where such an insignificant parcel of land was so contested? Possibly, but this is still pretty outrageous.
Certainly, no side is going to just “give up.” As well, I would be surprised if Korea lost Dokdo itself if the issue somehow made it to an international arbitor since uninhabited land carries no title that is past on through history. Arbitors have been consistant in that regard. Uninhabited islands are the possession of whichever country maintains a physical presence…assuming the area in question does not already lie within undisputed territorial waters, if the place is empty its open to anyone.
My sense is, that Japan is calculating a gradual series of provocations to both, place Korea in a poor diplomatic light, which they have been remarkably successful at, and to eventually force the issue to arbitration where Japan will probably lose Dokdo but it will gain the rights to the Economic Exclusion Zone at exactly the halfway mark (excluding Dokdo of course). Here as well, Japan seems to have studied up on arbitration history. Uninhabitable land not already within territorial water is not addressed in international maritime law, but in cases of contestation arbitors have held that those lands do not extend the territorial waters of a nation. Korea can claim that it does in this case, but such a claim won’t hold before an arbitor. Japan will at the same time gain additional fishing grounds, appear “flexible” in the eyes of the world, and not lose anything really important. Not bad…
Gerry Writes: I think you are mistaken, Kushibo. Wasn’t it Korea that brought up the issue of textbooks?
Quoting the BBC in April 2002:
Cathartidae: “were Korea to simply ignore such stunts and other comments vis-a-vis Dokdo… with zero pushback, could Japan take it from them?”
That’s exactly what Korea should do — nothing. There is no dispute if one side is not playing, and Japan is very unlikely to escalate it into a conflict, as Korea has just announced that it is quite willing to do.
If the Korean gov’t is so easily led into hysterics and overreaction, it should not expect any sympathy.
Belay My Last… read arbiter/arbitrator, not arbitor.
“WJK Wrote:
I’ve been told by a South Korean Vietnam War veteran who happens to drink a lot everyday, that Nori is (Gim). This seaweed food came from Korea to Japan during the Chosun era. Now, the world knows it as Nori. Japanese people are like this. They won’t try to pull this sort of thing off Western Europeans, but everyone else is fair game to be cheated.
Gerry writes: Except for Koreans, who else in the world would worry about the Japanese stealing there food ideas? That is the perfect example of how petty Koreans can be when it comes to Japan.”
WJK writes: It’s the principle of being taken of advantage of by its neighbor that disturbs Koreans. It’s been historically demonstrated, practiced, Japan has even tried to lie about it.
Japan is like a sex offender/thief who lives next door. He’ll lie about it, cover it up, takes things, lie about it, etc.
Did you know that Japan has stolen part of the Chosun kingdom’s annals, and placed them in the Tokyo library, and still refuses to fully return it to Korea?
http://www.ohmynews.com/articl.....ode=324642
While keeping the annals of the Chosun kingdom, it has somehow managed to kick out the Chosun royal families out of Japan, and out of its royal court.
(I can’t believe I am referring to ohmynews for info, but it seems like the article is more of fact than opinion)
Why doesn’t the US enter the ICJ to resolve territorial disputes? Didn’t they buy the Dutch or the English buy Manhatten island for the present day value of 50 dollars? Try renting an apartment in Manhatten for 50 dollars. That’s the sort of justification you guys are giving Japan for owning Dokdo.
In a way, Japan is no different from certain countries in Europe. I believe the British having the Elgin marbles, is unjustified. The British having some of the Egyptian treasures in their museums is unjustified, too. The French probably have some of those, too. Why don’t they go to ICJ first, before Korea does?
By the way, why can’t Japan mature up, and say Gim is Gim, instead of telling the world it’s Nori? How mature is that?
Gerry, you mentioned no one in the world would concern themselves with stealing food ideas.
Why does the US, St. Louis, Missouri based Anheuser-Busch Budweiser pick constant legal fights with the Czech Republic based Budweiser?
Why? Aren’t Americans more mature than that?
Europeans wouldn’t even taste Budweiser anyway. They probably like the Czech Budweiser much better.
Why did the Koreans steal the perfectly good English word “toast” and apply it to the travesty they call “토스트”?
ah, but they still call it Toast. Do they not?
WJK, Budweiser is dog piss, but anyway the dispute was over branding, not who invented beer.
Of course we all know Korea originated sumo, tempura, chopsticks, four distinct seasons, pizza with corn….
plus, I think the Korean version of toast is more of what the Japanese also eat.
So which came first, the Korean copy of American toast, or the Japanese?
You know, wjk, a lot of the reason Americans (and some others) use Japanese instead of Korean names for certain foods is not because they think they were invented by the Japanese, but because we were introduced to them by the Japanese.
It’s like, that is why Koreans say “빵” for bread instead of say, “클렙” or “브로트”.
You are mistaken to read some sort of conspiracy or intentional misleading into it.
You know, wjk, a lot of the reason Americans (and some others) use Japanese instead of Korean names for certain foods is not because they think they were invented by the Japanese, but because we were introduced to them by the Japanese.
I concur. This is nothing to get one’s undies in a bunch over. Most stuff common to Japan and Korea (and sometimes China) has a Japanese (or Chinese) name to it.
Tofu for bean curd, ramen, daikon radish, shiitake mushrooms, saké for rice wine, etc., etc.
Now if people in other countries started calling kimchi “kimuchi” or started pronouncing taekwondo or hapkido the Japanese way, then that would be something to bring up (rationally).
At least the word silk comes from the Korean word for thread.
” “빵” for bread instead of say, “클렙” or “브로트” .”
빵. We took this from Japan. Japan introduced this word to us, and I think it may have been either the Spanish or the Portuguese who use the word Pan for bread. I’m leaning toward the Portuguese. Notice, though, we used what the Japanese called it, we didn’t invent a new word for it.
브로트. German for bread. Understandbly, they didn’t have colonies to tell them what this should be called.
I think the Japanese copy of toast came first, then to Korea.
I don’t think I’m mistaken. Westerners may use words because Japan introduced these words to them, but Japan goes out of its way to register their term for foreign acquired goodies as official terms.
Kushibo, your choice of words to “Japanesize” gave me a chuckle. “Kimuchi” sounds an awful lot like the Japanese version of Kimoji meaning 기분이 촣아… Ordering Kimchi in Japan could give foreigners fits.
I think the word for “燒酒” as now served in bars and clubs in Silverlake and Hollywood uses the Korean word “soju” and not the Japanese word “shouchuu,” even when the swill is imported from Japan and not Korea.
Ganpai!
You know, if diacritical marks were used for shouchuu, it would look like shōchū, which makes a lot more sense. These attempts to Romanize Korean and Japanese without diacritic marks ends up utilizing constructions (eo in Korean and ou in Japanese) that look nothing the way they’re supposed to be pronounced.
While we’re on the subject of Japanese language, what’s a good on-line source for a Japanese-English dictionary? I was disappointed to find that daum.net does not have a Korean-Japanese dictionary.
Kushibo, you would have a hard time getting Americans to use diacritical marks I think.
michael, I believe the Koreans still call tempura, tempura. Sumo is still sumo.
My point is the insidious Japanese tendency to make up their own words for things acquired from either Korea or other push-overable nation, and use their Japanese terms to be registered in internationally accepted vocabulary. And, with enough world wide usage, and time, they claim they invented it. Whatever it is, food included. Who else does this?
Kushibo,
The Japanese approved textbooks for its schools, but Koreans are the ones who made an issue of it, just as they have made an issue of many other things, including the spelling of “Korea,” the name of the sea between the two countries, visits to a Japanese shine, and Dokdo. From what I have read, the Japanese would prefer to just “agree to disagree” and get on with more important things.
WJK, I was teasing about tempura etc. (although I’ve heard Koreans argue that sumo originated in Korea as “ssirum”).
Can you give examples besides kimchi for what you’re saying?
OK, wjk, I remember the flap sometime back over there being an official codex of foods and Japan trying to register “kimuchi”. That’s what you’re referring to, right?
I still think that Americans will ignore whatever the codex name is and call foods what they’ve always called them.
Off the top of my head, I’m pretty sure Americans familiar with Korean food would use “bibimbap” (don’t the Japanese use the Korean name of that dish also?); “soju”, as jyce pointed out; definitely “kimchi”.
How do we know which of the dishes/food items common to both Korea and Japan originated?
By the way, it’s not so much about colonization as it is about trade and degrees of openness to the outside world.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
The Japanese approved textbooks for its schools, but Koreans are the ones who made an issue of it,
Gerry, you said I was mistaken when I wrote that “in 2002 Japan brought up the issue [of Tokto] in textbooks,” so I presented the BBC link to prove otherwise. By throwing this back on Korea, is this your way of admitting you were wrong?
just as they have made an issue of many other things, including the spelling of “Korea,”
Gerry, one lawmaker has made an issue of this and hasn’t gotten anywhere with it. Despite it being on some moldy old headbands from the 2002 world cup, it’s just not an issue at all.
the name of the sea between the two countries,
As is Korea’s right, especially since the most commonly used name was officially established when Korea had no say in the matter. This is what the UN (UNCSGN) has to say on the issue now:
visits to a Japanese shine,
A Japanese shrine that enshrined, as a political ploy, fourteen people who were instrumental in devastating East Asia at a cost of around twenty million lives, and whose shrinekeepers actively promote the view that Japan had no choice but to invade its neighbors and was forced into war by the United States.
And as you know, Korea is certainly not alone in condemning the visits. Many Japanese do, as do people in a number of other countries, including some from the United States. Who is being unreasonable here?
and Dokdo. From what I have read, the Japanese would prefer to just “agree to disagree” and get on with more important things.
Does the local DMV give you a driver’s license, Gerry, considering you are blind to all but one side of anything? The stuff going on from the other side is there, Gerry, if you were ever willing to take a look or examine this issue with any bit of objectivity. I am one of the first to say that the Roh Administration has over-reacted on this issue, but if you can’t see that right-wingers trying to land on the island, sending in the Coast Guard, placing the issue in textbooks, etc., is not pretty much the same stuff from the other side…
Serious question: can someone explain to me how Japan sending a ship to the disputed EEZ area is a “justification of its past invasions,” as Roh is calling it. I don’t get the logic.
Roh is just using the “past” and the “victimhood” to justify contemporary political issues.
The korean SHOULD BE critical about that.
Curzon: I don’t get the logic.
The Great Pretender, “Aretha” Roh: What’s logic got to do with it?
If we are fortunate, things will continue to escalate and the ROKN may get an opportunity to test the newly developed Haesung anti-ship cruise missile or the Blue Shark lightweight torpedo under active combat situations.
Serious question: can someone explain to me how Japan sending a ship to the disputed EEZ area is a “justification of its past invasions,” as Roh is calling it. I don’t get the logic.
Well, for starters, he said “justification of its history of aggression”: These are acts by an ultranationalist government to justify its history of aggression and challenge the future order of Northeast Asia.
I’m not saying I agree with how he’s handling this situation (and I note that it’s somewhat ironic that he’s referring to Koizumi as “ultranationalist”), but the logic would seem to be something like this.
Japan’s claim to the EEZ surrounding Tokto is based on based on a claim to Tokto.
The Japanese claim to Tokto goes back to 1905, citing terra nullius, even though Korea had made a prior claim on the island, and Japan had acknowledged the claim in the 19th century. Japan claimed Tokto in 1905 at a time when, by Tokyo’s design through the Russo-Japanese War and the forcing of Korea to relinquish control of foreign affairs to Tokyo (that’s the history of aggression part), there was little Korea could do about this issue.
Furthermore, the treaty Japan signed at the end of World War II called for it to give up any claims on territory gained through its imperial expansionism.
Thus, any Japanese claim today on Tokto or the surrounding EEZ is, in Seoul’s view, based on Japan’s past imperial aggression. It would be no different from if Tokyo were to send its Coast Guard into the EEZ created by Chejudo or Ullŭngdo.
Wjk,
Many Chinese regional cuisines use dried seaweed, and use a Chinese word for it, not “gim” or “nori” or even the English “seaweed.” Does this surprise you?
Many Chinese cuisines also pickle nearly every kind of vegetable. In fact, in many Fujianese dialects, pickled white cabbage is called “kimchai.” This is their native pronunciation of pickled cabbage. Does this surprise you?
Getting back to the issue at hand, both countries seem to resemble squabbling children. South Korea’s actions overall seem extremely childish. Yet I tend to fault Japan. It doesn’t seem to gain very much if were ever to get these islands. Conversely, the costs to bilateral ties caused by the issue seems to be greater.
It will take a great deal of time, money, and energy to improve bilateral relations, and to create truly long-lasting ties. If Japan could relinquish its claims, it would stand to trade in more benefits than costs.
Kushibo,
Your BBC article proved MY point, not yours.
Korea and Japan both claim Dokdo/Takeshima, but Japan has not been threatening diplomatic war, canceling summit meetings, printing Takeshima stamps, or sending a dozen ships and planes out to prevent a survey of the disputed area. Korea has been doing all of that and more.
Almost all countries have shines to people who other people consider evil. The United States honors people who are considered war criminals by other nations. China honors Mao, who killed tens of millions. North Korea honors Kim Il-sung, who killed millions of Koreans. South Korea honors people who the Japanese consider as terrorists, yet it is only Korea and China who are making a big deal out of the Japanese shine visits. The United States, the Philippines, and other countries have not been threatening diplomatic war or canceling summit meetings.
You are the one with blinders on, Kushibo, if you cannot see how Korea overreacts to almost everything that Japan does. Even you BBC article said that Koizumi, not Roh, spent months trying to get Japan-Korea relations back on track. However, no matter what Koizumi does, Koreans will find something to whine about. Koreans love to paint themselves as the victim, and they love to make Japan, the US military, and Apollo Ohno the victimizer.
I cracked up when I read that Roh is considering giving up using “quiet diplomacy” with Japan. Quiet diplomacy? When has Roh ever used quiet diplomacy with Japan? The only kind of diplomacy I have seen Roh use is “hissy-fit diplomacy.”
Open your eyes, Kushibo, and stop kissing up to your Korean handlers. You have been in Korea long enough to know what is going on. You do have to be afraid. It is possible to live among Koreans without having to kiss their butt.
michael wrote:
Kushibo, you would have a hard time getting Americans to use diacritical marks I think.
Not the ones who are writing their résumé in an Internet café inbetween studying for a français lesson and reading about El Niño.
Anyhoo, of course there will be people who omit the diacriticals, a less than ideal situation, but (just as M-R without diacriticals) the shōchū, Tōkyō, and Kyōtō are better written (without diacriticals) as shochu, Tokyo, and Kyoto than shouchuu, Toukyou, and Kyoutou. In Korean, Inchon is preferable to Incheon, and Pomosa is preferable to Beomeosa.
Koizumi (or Abe) and Roh both are playing the chicken game of “Nationalism”.
They are playing it because they want to hide their true “chicken heart” .They just cant admitt that their policy went wrong.
Japanese and Koreans should lay back and laugh at them but not react to them.
tomyam jipangu: Right on. But consider this: keeping this issue on the table is Roh’s number one goal.
Kushibo, Your BBC article proved MY point, not yours.
I had said that in 2002 “Japan brought up the [Tokto] issue in textbooks.”
You then said I was mistaken, asking, “Wasn’t it Korea that brought up the issue of textbooks?”
So maybe the problem here is that you misread “the issue in textbooks” as “the issue of textbooks.” Or are you saying that Japan did not bring up Tokto/Takeshima in its textbooks in 2002?
Korea and Japan both claim Dokdo/Takeshima, but Japan has not been threatening diplomatic war, canceling summit meetings, printing Takeshima stamps, or sending a dozen ships and planes out to prevent a survey of the disputed area. Korea has been doing all of that and more.
Korea is in no position but to send out ships and planes to prevent an unwanted incursion into an area it occupies. Russia would react the same if Japan were to head off for the Kurils in this way.
Almost all countries have shines to people who other people consider evil. The United States honors people who are considered war criminals by other nations.
Such as? Who was convicted in an international court and found guilty yet is still revered by the American leadership? More to the point, if there were such a person, would the US leadership stop paying reverence to that pers