UPDATE: Video removed at the request of the USFK Provost Marshal Office.
Video evidence of why you have to watch out for the dudes on motorcycles.
God, I hope the guy wasn’t killed.
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31 Comments
Damn! Seoul is dangerous enough for motorcycles even when one doesn’t run red lights.
I would ban motorcycles in the ROK until there was a semblance of a safety culture.
Prime example of a 100% completely avoidable accident. Sad thing is, the driver of the SUV will be around 30% liable for the accident and resulting damages/injuries under what amounts to the “well, if you had just stayed home today, then you wouldn’t have been at that intersection at that time, so it’s party your fault” theory of liability.
And one wonders if the fact that, from what I understand, the SUV in question is a USFK vehicle will influence the liability share.
Some observations:
Did you see the motorcycle who drove through the red light after the guy on the scooter had plowed into the SUV and was lying on the pavement?
I found it really dismaying (and somewhat surprising given similar situations I’ve witnessed here) that nobody rushed over (from their cars, from the sidewalk, etc.) to see if the scooterist was okay.
That intersection, between Gate #7 and that other gate at Yongsan Garrison, has a problem with people going through the light, not just drivers on two wheels. It’s too close to that Noksap’yŏng Station intersection, with people either coming with a full head of steam or just beginning to accelerate.
Too many people on two wheels have a death wish in Korea. As a driver, no matter how much reasonably prudent “watching” for them you do, someone will surprise you. A nasty legal problem I had that ended only recently started when a guy on a motorcycle did this to me and smashed into my pimped-out minivan.
Thank God for the overhead pass between Gate #5 and Gate #10.
Jeff is right about the legal consequences, which apparently stems from a provision of the law that gives these moto-mogis the right-of-way in Korea and the practice of generally exempting them (and bus drivers) of any obligation to obey the traffic laws.
I ride myself, and have no sympathy for this moron, whether he’s dead or alive or maimed. He made this shit happen all by hisself.
my pimped-out minivan
Haha! My image of you has flown completely out the window. (not that it was a bad image, mind you).
kushibo’s love caravan…
Dear Mr./Ms./Mrs./Dr. Iceberg,
I have been instructed to inform you that Mr. Ku Shibo, in accordance with his obligations to limit posting to an average of one comment per thread, will not be able to respond to your comment above.
However, if you would like more information on Ku Shibo’s “pimped-out minivan,” I have been told to direct you here and here.
I have also been asked to inform you that, “If the van is a rockin’, then don’t come a knockin’.”
It’s not a deathwish. It’s simply the “me first” attitude running into the cold steel of reality.
I believe the motorcyclist pulled up on the sidewalk, parked and then came out to help the other motorcyclist. He walks out with his reflective vest at the end of the video. Kushibo, cut back a little on the Embassy Association’s Starbuck’s latte.
Yes, the motorcyclist did appear to go help the injured man. In fact, he was in the left-turn lane, but turned right, instead, so that he could park his motorcycle and go help the injured man.
Also, the driver of the car that was hit pulled over to the side and was probably trying to get out of his crushed door. And then the driver of the car just behind the motorcyclist opened his door to get out at the very end of the video.
To me, it seems everyone was responding appropriately. After an accident, it takes a few seconds for people to realize what happened and then a few more seconds to consider the best course of action.
Everyone, except maybe the car that was behind the car that was hit.
Hardyandtiny,
Yeah, it looks like you’re right. The file was a little jerky and I thought that the motorcycle was coming from the right side of the screen. Upon a second, closer examination it does look like that was the same guy who went to help that person (who at first I had thought was a passerby).
As for the guy who was in the car that got hit, I know that in similar situations I (and a few others I know) have IMMEDIATELY gotten out of the car to check on someone who was injured like that (to be fair, though, because of the parking situation in my neighborhood, I’m quite used to hopping over the seats and get out the passenger-side door, but I know others may not be so quick about that).
FURTHERMORE, watching a smoother version of this, it looks like the scooter hit the SUV pretty hard; the SUV really lurched to the left. It’s entirely possible that the SUV driver him/herself may have been somewhat injured, or at least in shock, which would explain why he/she didn’t jump out the car and check on the person who crashed into the SUV.
My comment about people not rushing to help the guy was more directed at the others on screen, who were not hit. The taxi in the left turn lane seemed eager to get out of the frame. The guard, who I guess can’t leave his post, seemed a bit lethargic about calling someone about the incident.
Maybe rushing-to aid without thinking is not the best course of action, anyway. But on the other hand, I wonder if moving the SUV away from the accident, causing the scooter driver to further hit the pavement and possibly moving a potentially injured spinal cord, was the wisest thing to do. It also leaves the scooter driver more vulnerable to getting hit, since a person on the ground is harder for moving traffic to see than a stalled SUV. But in an emergency situation, it’s a lot harder to judge than when you’re sitting back watching it on-line.
Not exactly related, but some years ago in Itaewon a group of us were waiting at the crosswalk one evening, and when it turned green a child walked out into the street (not immediately, but about a half second after the pedestrian signal turned green), and about two seconds later, was plowed into by a motorcylist who would have had PLENTY of time to stop for the red light he saw changing up ahead. A bunch of pedestrians immediately flocked to the kid, while a couple ajoshi and a twenty-something went over to the cyclist, who in a matter of poetic justice, had flown off his bike onto the pavement. He may have needed medical attention, too, but the men were standing there yelling at him for running a red light and hitting a kid.
The kid did not experience life-threatening injuries, but he was taken to a hospital.
I’ve seen accidents like that happen on several occasions. One just the other day here in Gwanghwamun. Ugly stuff. I don’t blame the SUV and I can’t say I always practice what I preach when I say this, but I do try to look both ways, even when I have the right of way. (Might come from being a cyclist, dunno.)
You know, I visit Greece often and they use more motorcycles and mopeds in downtown Athens moreso than in Seoul but Athens seems so much tamer than Seoul and that is amazing considering the meandering, arrogant drivers that are in Greece.
I saw a guy’s leg come off below the knee in an accident over at that Kwanghwamun intersection.
All of this is very interesting, but I think that we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions based on a 60 second video clip. There are several things I would like to point out about this incident, both that CAN BE SEEN and WHAT CAN NOT BE SEEN IN THE CLIP.
First: Let me draw your attention to the signal light at the time of impact. Notice anything strange? (This is a test) BINGO! The American in the SUV (believe it was a POV)was crossing the intersection from Main to South Post on a RED light. At that point in time, only traffic turning left was authorized, not traffic going from Main to South Post. Doesn’t make the Korean motorcyclist any less guilty, but we need to be honest here about ALL of the events and conditions contributing to the accident.
Second (direct response to Mr. Bevers’ comment about the car BEHIND the SUV and general comments about how quickly assistance was rendered). The car directly behind the SUV is a 2003 Ford Taurus SEL. Do I have good eyesight for video details? Nope. I own the car! Now, what I can tell you is this: Doesn’t make my thought process right, but in these kind of situations, we all react differently. My first thought was to CLEAR the intersection, drive to a safe place and render assistance needed. As I negotiated around the wreck, I remember the SUV continuing across the intersection, I remember looking at the injured motercyclist, and before I had time to think about rendering assistance, I saw (don’t remember wether it was from my rear view mirror or not-I think so) a second motorcycle park and remember seeing the second motorcyclist scramble off of his wheels and go to render assistance to the Korean victim. My thoughts immediately turned to the American driver. My thinki8ng was that he/she could possibly be injured also. So, (this is where the video ENDS) I continued across the intersection and pulled in front of the SUV, got OUT of my car, and started to approach the SUV. The driver of the SUV got out of the car and started towards the obviously injured motorcyclist to render assistance. I saw that the motorcyclist was ALREADY receiving assistance, and I also asked the SUV driver at the same time if he/she required assistance. The driver was OK, so I gave the SUV driver my phone number and told the driver that he/she would probably need to contact me for investigation purposes. THEN, I got in my car, proceeded thru the South Post Guard Check. I did this only after I was assured that my assistance was NOT required. The Guard asked me if I saw what happened. I told him EXACTLY what I saw and proceeded to a meeting I had to attend.
Now, I’ll bet we are all waiting with baited breath to see the blotter/accident report on this. I know I am. Why? Because some 30 minutes later, I returned thru South Posr going back to Main Post using the same road. Why? I thought that perhaps I would be able to make a witness statement about what I had seen. Indeed, 2 MP types were talking with the SUV driver. I parked in a safe spot, walked over to the group, introduced myself and let all know I was in the car behind the SUV. The MPs took my name and phone number, stated something to the effect that they already had sufficient witness statements, and promised to contact me if need be.
I’ll leave this alone at this point, but I sure will be interested to hear the final disposition of this accident. BTW, I hear the Korean guy lived, but had a broken pelvis and other assorted injuries. He should definitely consider himself lucky if he pulls through. I leave with one final thought . . .If I had moved that Korean by way of offering assistance, and if, as a result of movement, more serious injury had been incurred, could I have been liable under Korean law? As a foreigner here, I have to admit this crossed my mind at the time (that is why I was SO relieved to see someone coming to the assistance of the motorcyclist) Any of you barracks lawyers know the answer?
I’m not sure either why the driver of the SUV moved his vehicle. To get out of the way of traffic behind him? (which makes no sense since the motorcyclist was in the road) or to get back on USFK soil, so to speak? I thought the rule preached by USFK was when involved in an accident, do NOT move your vehicle until the police come and tell you to move.
But like kushibo said, the motorcycle hit that SUV pretty hard so the driver may have been injured as well, or at least very shook up and/or rattled.
Right by our apartments, we’ve had 2 motorcyclists killed in the last year and both of them were food delivery guys. In both cases, same thing: they were trying to run a red light to cross a busy 6-lane street (old highway 1) on which vehicles regularly travel at speeds exceeding 100Kph.
Valor,
We must have hit the submit button at the same time. It’s been a while since I lived up in Seoul and used those gates, but I thought that each side turned green for left turn and straight through at the same time, South Post to Main Post first, then Main Post to South Post - but like I said, it’s been a while. If the light turns green for left turn first, is it a common habit for people to run the red light to go straight? I only ask because it looks like the car behind the SUV (you) was also moving and about to run the red light as well.
Hey, I have to admit, I have been sorely tempted to do so when no traffic is turning left coming from South Post, but I have never actually done so. Actually, I was only “edging” up to the vacant space left when the SUV took off, but have to admit that, when looking at the video, (interesting to see yourself in the third person!) I can see my car jerking to a stop after I see the crash. Even when rolling forward at a slow speed, slamming the brakes as I did will cause the car to lurch. So, in this case, have to tell you that I was NOT following Mr. SUV across the intersection, but that doesn’t mean I ‘ve never thought about it! I sure as hell won’t be tempted again! The light pattern there now is 1. Left turns only 2. thru traffic only.
Valor, even before you mentioned that you were the one in the Taurus, I had thought that that driver (you) was intending to stop somewhere safe, though this can’t be verified because the clip ends.
I have to admit I got confused about the lights in the clip, since the green arrow shows up just as a regular light. So both the SUV and the scooter were entering the intersection illegally, huh? Lawyers among us, would that mean that liability is now 50-50? Come to think of it, about a year ago (?) at that intersection, I had a near-miss when turning left when a car going straight was coming through ahead of time.
Like I said before, that’s a lousy intersection—going along the east-west road between Main Post and South Post I’ve seen a few red light runners nearly collide with traffic legally turning onto the east-west road or crossing from one side of post to the other. Even here it looks like the cement truck at the beginning of the clip has run the red light. I would go out of my way to use the overpass just to avoid that intersection.
Valor, did the taxi, that would have been to your left, stop to give assistance after he turned?
In terms of how the green arrow “shows up”, You will notice that the RED light is clearly on at the same time as the green arrow. That would not be the case if the green light for cross traffic had already take effect. As for the taxi, I never noticed what happened to the taxi, but I relooked the video clip, and it appears the taxi made a rather wide left turn into the far right lane of traffic headed towards Itaewon. Maybe he did that to stop, or maybe he was just moving over to the far right lane to head out towards Banpo Bridge. I dunno. One problem here at this intersection as I see it . . .the light is not a delayed light when changing. By that, I mean that, unlike we do in the states nowadays, this light, when changing to red in one direction, immediately triggers a green for cross traffic, rather than using a built-in 5 second delay. Had the light delay function been incorporated, perhaps the accident could have been avoided. However, having lived here for 12 years, in all probability, the typical Korean AND American driver would then proceed to factor in the delay and run the red light with even more abandon due to a “perceived” fudge factor!
I have noticed the non-delayed lights at many intersections. It is a hazard for impatient pedestrians, especially children, who march out into the street as soon as they get a green WALK signal.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that, too: there’s no all-red phase with Korean traffic signals. It means that there’s a very real likelihood (in fact it’s almost guaranteed)—even if no one actually enters the intersection on a red light—that someone itching to go will enter on green while there is still cross traffic clearing the intersection. (On a side note, many a time I’ve been waiting to cross as a pedestrian—patiently, though often through inordinately red phases—when finally the light turns green for traffic, and I have to wait a couple of seconds till the crosswalk signal goes to “walk.”)
The much bigger issue with respect to this intersection—from a traffic engineer’s point of view (not that I am one)—would be the simultaneous left turns in opposite directions. While this is standard practice in North America—indeed, very much the rule rather than the exception—it is of course highly unusual for South Korea. The usual situation where there are protected left turns is for left-turn and through traffic in one direction to go simultaneously (동시 신호)—along with the non-conflicting crosswalk&mdash. If motorists are used to that arrangement—and why wouldn’t they be?—then they may instinctively behave at this intersection in the same way as they would at other signals.
Sorry, I meant to write that I’ve had to wait to cross through inordinately long red phases.
Anyhow, with the all-red, as Valor points out, it does make it that much more tempting for traffic that just got a red to try to cross anyhow (assuming the cross street still has red), or for cross traffic to try to jump the light, so maybe it would all be for naught.
Regarding the phasing of left turns, between Nomad and Valor, it sounds like the intersection’s phasing might actually have changed from standard to non-standard? That’s just whacked.
Anyhoo, more generally, I’ve seen vehicles on 4 wheels run red lights a couple of times in Korea (when they obviously figured it wouldn’t lead to an accident)—but then, I’ve even seen it done (by a bus driver, no less) in Vancouver.
Okay, last thought (on a completely different but related note): despite the impression one might get vis a vis a complete lack of driver safety education in Korea, I was done at the 시외 버스 (intercity bus) terminal in Jinhae on the south coast just last week, and there was a series of about 10 VERY detailed and well illustrated posters on just about every possible accident scenario at an intersection (going straight, turning right, turning left; involving cars where they should or shouldn’t be, motorcycles, pedestrians) and what should be done to avoid such scenarios. I was blown away by how good they were. Don’t remember now the name of the company (it was a company, too; the URL wasn’t go.kr) that published them.
Simultaneous left-turn signals are not at all unusual, at least in Seoul.
Kushibo:
If as Valor says the light pattern is (1) left turns only, then (2) straight on only, then the SUV Driver is also going to be found at fault. While common sense tells you that all other things being equal the allocation of fault should be 50/50, it won’t be, given the leeway granted moto mogis in Korea and the fact that the cyclist was seriously injured. Especially if the court sees the tape, they are going to say that but for the SUV’s traffic violation, the cyclist would have escaped unscathed, nothwithstanding that he also violated the traffic regulations and equally couldn’t have been injured but for his own negligence. He’s luck he just managed to get around the guy turning left with the signal. The SUV driver’s case isn’t going to be helped by the facts that s/he’s not only apparently a foreigner but connected with USFK. Korean courts are very far from blind when it comes to a decision between fellow tribesmen and the barbarians.
Considering that this asshole may have plowed into a pedestrian or two instead, I consider his possible death a blessing and a life-saver. I almost got hit once by such an idiot in front of 외대 [the guy just plowed into the crossroad, full of pedestrians crossing into or out of the Uni], and have very little patience for two-wheeled assassins.
Which, of course, happens about once a second at any Seoul crossroad, and not just with motorbikes.
I am not sure he was going all that fast by the time he slowed. Not fast enough to die, anyway (definately not if he had a helmet). It’s difficult to tell, given that the video is running at about 8 fps.
I saw a scooter get nailed last week. Busted the front of his Forte all to heck, and dented/knocked the SUV bumper clean off. That guy nailed it pretty good, but was still alive and rolling on the ground in pain. No blood.
I saw a pizza delivery guy get nailed once, and watched in shock as the driver of the car got out and tried to pull the writhing guy to his feet. He probably made the injuries worse.
I drive a Daelim 125cc. I have for over 3 years. I’ve seen some crazy things happen, and nearly went down myself a few times. Scooter driving in Korea is like a sport.
Oops… didn’t see all of the comments above. That guy really got hurt. Too bad. Nobody likes to see someone get injured like that.
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