UPDATE: Well, it didn’t take long for Korean sport media outlet OSEN to blame an “American conspiracy” for Korea’s elimination from the tournament. Classic stuff that deserves a translation.
It’s over. Japan over Korea 6-0. I guess it was fun while it lasted.
Things aren’t looking good for Team Korea; they’re down 6-0 in the eighth.
101 Comments
i’m filing my paperwork to copyright the phrase “sa-gang curse” as we speak. the royalties will be rolling in before long.
as for complaints about the format, not a word would have been heard had the korean team won. single-elimination in the later rounds is a fact of life for most major international tournaments. you have to win when it matters. case closed.
i also can’t wait to see if ichiro gets his revenge by sticking a rising sun flag into the mound after the game. or perhaps a takeshima flag. or a yakusuni shrine flag.
hell, let’s go for all three.
I already thought the format sucked like hell when Canada got eliminated while the US advanced with the same record, but different runs allowed. I thought Canada got robbed there. And when the 2nd round began, I actually wanted Japan and South Korea to face again, because objectively I thought Korea would have a better chance that way. But, I had no idea of what kind of pitcher Uehara was. Apparently, pretty darned good. As a baseball fan, who likes baseball, this is good for baseball. Not good for South Korea. No shame though. No errors thru out the whole tournament. Even the Dominican Republic lost to Cuba. Castro must be smoking some Cubans right now. This contest was still good for South Korea. They played hard. Some boys won’t have to go to the military and do more good to their baseball careers. More Koreans may have a shot at the Major League. I used to like Ichiro but after learning that he hates South Koreans, I don’t like Ichiro, either. He’s like that Japanese person from Japan I met in Los Angeles. They hear Korea, body language shows aversion. Japanese born in America are different, though. All that said, go Cuba !
The Man keeps South Korea down again. The world is right once more.
Byung Hyun Kim, who coughed up the first 3 runs in the 7th, made $6,575,000 in Colorado last season. Who looks overpaid now?
Boy that was a dull ending. No Japanese rising sun stuck on the mound, no victory laps, and no fighting.
Look over to the losing side, there’s smiles all around, and they bow with their caps off to the fan. They achieved what they set out to do, to make the semi finals. They beat Japan twice, they beat the US all star squad, and had the best winning percentage. Out of 7 games, they made no errors and played flawless defense. And finally, they showed that they can play with the big leaguers and that Korean league isn’t that far off. In the end, they had no bats which done them in. And the odds also. Even the best teams have a hard time winning 7 games in a row.
Congrats to Japan in their finals.
I am Canadian but I do not think that Canada got robbed at all. Basically their pitching sucked ass except for one magical performance by a nobody (time will tell if he can translate that one performance into $$$$…er…i mean a successful career).
Also, I must have missed the part where Ichiro said that he hated South Koreans. Either way, he is one helluva ball player.
Kudos to both the Korean and Japanese team - they raised the awareness and respect level for Asian ball. I am hoping for Japan to win it all.
It was a good run, Korea played hard and deserves props. Cuba is in the final–Tommy Lasorda’s worst nightmare come true.
I listened to the game on Internet radio and found it interesting that the announcers mentioned that they were curious to see what kind of on-field display the Japanese players would perform after the game. Couldn’t quite make out if it was a little dig or just on-air dialogue to fill time during the dull ninth inning.
Ichiro didn’t curse out loud after the game nor blame the crowd for interference nor say 30 yrs blah blah. Nor say Greatest shame of my life, nor get drunk all night concerning a loss to the US…It was concerning a loss to South Korea. It’s indirect, but it’s there.
Korea hates Japan. We didn’t get our revenge like the rest of the world got on Germany. And South Korea signed off on those agreements with Japan, probably in the interest of economics. I’m guessing it was President Park, who did a great job on economics. But, he rigged elections, no doubt. Can’t say he actually represented the people’s best interests. I mean, he enjoyed speaking in Japanese and singing in Japanese. Anyone who’s not Korean can’t hammer us down hard for hating Japan. Imagine if Germany after the war had Hitler protected by the US, Russians were never allowed to enter Germany, and massive aid came pouring into Germany by the US, and the Israelis were given token compensations in the interest of economic concerns.
We didn’t get our just dues. Who the hell credits Germany for having built up economic infrastructures in Western Europe? Why then say so for Japan having done so for Korea?
Checked out Naver. Comments from netizens blaming the U.S. are starting to roll in.
Sigh—
wjk,
I thought this was a thread about baseball.
it is a thread about baseball. Sorry about that. Overall, World Baseball Classic was a good idea.
Korean manager made the worst decision when he brought on Kim Byung Hyun. This guy just can’t handle pressure. They should make the semi-final and final in a playoff format (best of 3 even), then the more consistent team would come through, and nobody would complain about it coming down to one game or one bad inning etc. But reality is that probably won’t happen, and Korea at least proved that they can play with the big boys now and reached the goal they set out to do. I don’t think Ichiro will make such brash remarks again.
Some of the Korean media are complaining aboout the way the Classic was organized in that Korea, which was 5-0, faced Japan three times and beat them twice, and Japan was 6-1 overall, yet Japan goes through on the basis of the one game. I think they have a legitimate gripe and it’s one of the things that needs re-thinking for the next WBC.
Loose translation of the headline and first paragraph of the OSEN piece:
Host country USA, “Out of Bitterness” gave it to Japan
Finally the worst fears of the WBC were realized. The host nation USA resorted to full force to serve up a meal that Japan gladly chowed down.
(Sound about right?)
—Sigh—
michael,
I think you meant that Korea was 6-1 overall, not Japan. And yes, they do have a legitimate gripe. But it wasn’t a conspiracy.
The game is over! Go walk your dog ya piece of garbage.
We all saw how happy Koreans can be even if they were severely beaten up by the Japanese Baseball team.
Ichiro said before the WBC games began, as he was asked by a japanese reporter what his feelings about the WBC games was, that he will dedicate himself to earn such a definite win that any other country will hesitate to play with Japan the next 30years, IT WAS NOT DIRECTED TOWARD ANY COUNTRY OR NATION.
As several top Japanese players (Majour leages and several NPB players) declined to play at the WBC games, the japanese media were quite curious why Ichiro, the star who had nothing to prove anymore wanted to play in the WBC.
So Ichiro showed his determination. He said that to show that his intentions were serious. Nothing more.
But from the next day the korean media made the story up as it was targeted toward Korea(or other asian teams) just to fuel their emotions. In the intervies with the Japanese media he also expressed high respect against the korean team but it was intentionaly neglected.
But it is natural that they do this. Every time it comes up when there is a big sports event. Before the world cup there was also some story that Nakada said something despising things against the korean team. It was made up.
Before the game with america, the american team manager said that he is planing to restrict the number of throws of the starter of this game up until to 50throws.
But the korean media reported that the American manager said that “50 throws are enough to win against korea”.
(Shaking my head) They sometimes make stories up to fuel their inferiority complex.
Well but I have to say that sometimes the Japanese media do the same thing with the USA.
Last I checked it was the same format for each and every team in the WBC. Welcome to sports and the single elimination phase. The round robin means nothing except for getting to the next round.
Then guess what. Everybody is 0-0 once again. The real deal begins in the single elimination and that has alwasy been the case. The overall record is and alwasy has been nothing but chest beating and dick waving.
I just hope the media does not tarnish the amazing performance of the Korean team.
And just as an aside, there are quite a few very postive comments on Naver as well. The congratulate the team with no reference to anything else.
they do not have a legitimate gripe, it’s complete bullshit sour grapes. being 6-1 overall means aboslutely nothing. once you finish the 1st round of pool play, those records are thrown out and you start again 0-0 in the 2nd round of pool play. when you finish the second round, your record is thrown out again and you go into single elimination at 0-0. records don’t roll over into the next round, and every team has to prove itself BOTH in pool play and then in single elimination. success in the 1st or 2nd round doesn’t mean shit in the 3rd. korea was 0-1 in single elimination, not 6-1.
team korea knew this before the tournament started, and agreed to the format. as did every other team. if they had a problem with the format, they should have lobbied to have it changed or not played in a tournament they believed was unfair.
how fucking difficult a concept is single-elimination to understand? the world cup works the same way. pool play in the preliminaries followed by single elimination. a team can go 3-0 in its world cup pool, and then lose in single elimination to a team that went 1-2 in its pool play. that’s the way it fucking works. you’d never hear them crying that they went 3-1 and the other team went 2-2 “overall” so they should move on.
you think you’d hear the kansas men’s basketball coach say something as fucking retarded as “we’re 25-8 overall, and bradley is 21-10, so even though they beat us in the 1st round of a SINGLE-ELIMINATION tournament, we’re protesting and believe we should advance.”
not only no, but fuck no. they’d be labeled dumb-ass retards, which is the nametag koreans are slapping on themselves as we speak.
the format is not to blame, and koreans blaming the format are going through their tried and true method of finding scapegoats to blame all their failures on. it’s fucking pathetic bullshit from whiny goddamn tittybabies, not legitimate gripes.
if korea had won and then beat cuba, not a fucking word about format problems. the simple fact is, koreans always have been, and always will be sore fucking losers. it’s an indisputable given.
scapegoats and superiority complexes go together like soju and sam gyeob sal, and michael, you’re only feeding the stupidity fire by claiming it’s a legitimate gripe.
korea played great the entire tournament, and then played like crap when mattered. boo fucking hoo. grow a goddamn pair of balls and admit that you lost to a better team TODAY. korea was better last week, and the week before, and japan was better TODAY. i hope like hell this is confined to the crap-ass korean media and gay-ass netizens, because if korean players or coaches start parroting this tripe, they’re going to lose all respect they gained in the last 3 weeks.
Whoa, chill man…I’m feeding the stupidity? That’s my personal opinion regardless of who won or lost. I didn’t like the arrangement, the way the pools played only among themselves in the preliminary–fine if the World Cup operates that way, but this is baseball. I wanted to see a lottery draw for the first round among all the teams. The WBC has a lot of organizational flaws, and that was only one.
Koreans will have an entire Carne Station buffet of scapegoats, I doubt they need my small contribution, and I doubt y’all would have gone after me if I had prefaced my comment with the obligatory “Koreans suck.” I’m very well aware of how the Korean media operates because I work with it in my job, and if some outlets say they disliked the WBC arrangement, they are simply agreeing with me
I disliked it as well but that is not the point. I truly believe that baseball is not a game where single elimination does it justice. However, due to time (and financial?) constraints there was little choice in the matter. Complaining about it after the fact is just…well…somewhat pathetic.
The only thing I would like to see added is perhaps a crossover in the semi-finals. If this were the case I think we would have seen a Korea-Cuba semi and a Dominican-Japan final.
Exactly–a crossover in the semis or a lottery for the prelims. If this made the WBC longer, so what?
For the record: I said “the media are complaining” (that’s typical) and that “I think they have a legitimate gripe (complaint)”–the distinction, and there was one, was apparently lost on some people. But I love you anyway.
there is no perfect format, and the wbc was set up with severe geographical, time, money, and organizational restraints because of all the parties involved. it could certainly be better.
criticizing the format in search of a better overall tournament next time around is absolutely fair game. i personally think since the round 1 pools were decided geographically, the round 2 pools should have been blind draws without geographic considerations. maybe next time if time and money allow.
criticizing the format in the context of blaming it for the fact that korea lost, or to use as evidence of an american conspiracy, is not fair game. it’s sour grapes, horseshit scapegoating.
there’s a gigantic difference between the two, and judging by the article robert linked to and past experience, you can bet that koreans will be doing a lot of the latter and none of the former.
and i present to you, exhibit A. the kool-aid is already in wide circulation:
“It is a pity to lose the game, but I highly recognize the national team’s efforts. It is also regretful that we could not gain a good result despite fine plays because we had to fight the Japanese team three times due to the U.S.’ abnormal game schedules,” Park Sung-soo, 31-year-old Seoul citizen, said.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....910510.htm
reason for the loss?
korea couldn’t hit? no.
japan rocked korean pitchers? no.
japanese pitchers were excellent? no.
U.S. abnormal game schedules? ding! ding! ding!
we have a winner!
I heartblueballs,
Sorry, I disagree with you on this one. Have a look at the combined winning percentages of the top three teams from each of the following leagues.
NFL 83%
English Premiership 82%
ACC (NCAA basketball) 77%
NBA 73%
MLB 60%
The top three teams in the major leagues won only sixty percent of their games.
In baseball it is much more difficult to determine the superiority of one team over another through a single game than in other sports, which is why a single-elimination format for a baseball tournament is ridiculous. That is why the major league season consists of 162 games and each round of the playoffs is a best-of-seven series. Hell, even most high school baseball tournaments follow a double-elimination format.
The only sports competition I can think of that you could say is similar to the WBC is Olympic ice hockey. But a single game of hockey takes a far greater toll on the athletes than does a baseball game, so it’s sort of a necessary evil. The WBC needs to devise a format for future competitions that lends a bit more authenticity to its champion. What I would recommend is that it follow the example of the College World Series and create winners and losers brackets for the final eight teams and make it a double-elimination tournament.
Do I think Team Korea is the best team in the world? No. Do I think they were victims of a conspiracy? Not by a long shot. But do I think the tournament format sucks and Koreans have a right to gripe about it? Yes. To a point.
Perhaps lament about it would be a better way of phrasing it.
“we had to FIGHT the Japanese team three times” Good god, and that was probably a literal translation.
On a side note, since I checked that rag to read the story, look at how fickle the Korean public is: “Nearly 38 percent of South Koreans consider China as the biggest security threat in 10 years.” I think that’s Konglish for “of the last 10 years,” not “10 years from now,” but I’m not sure.
Anyway, this amazes me: “Meanwhile, 81.7 percent of the respondents said the United States is helping South Korea the most, followed by distant runners-up China (6.1 percent), North Korea (5.4 percent) and Japan (4.5 percent).”
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....510230.htm
Contrast with: “In February 2002 a poll in the Sisa journal revealed that over 56% of South Koreans had recently changed their opinion of America for the worse, and 41% even considered China a closer ally of South Korea than the U.S.—only 30% chose the United States.”
http://www.irc-online.org/fpif.....html#south
I’m surprised people here don’t get whiplash from changes sides so frequently.
Funny how none of the Koreans I know blame it on the format, because they knew before the game, that it was a one game elimination semifinal. How can you generalize all Koreans according to one silly article and few crazy netizens? They do “wish” that it wasn’t so, but they enjoyed it while it lasted, and then get on with their lives. This is the Koreans I know.
Most people I have talked to, Korean and non-Korean, are critical of the format in the context that they shouldn’t have had to face Japan 3 times, I think everyone agrees to this. The Goat said it best when he said I truly believe that baseball is not a game where single elimination does it justice, that is why the playoffs in MLB is decided in a best of 7 series (I’m suggesting 3). Also, see what they did in the English Premier League as an example of how formats change to favour the consistent side.
I could understand some Korean baseball fanatics feeling that they got the bad end of the stick. I suggest to them to try and lobby the WBC for a format change (I’m sure Koreans won’t be alone in this anyway). So stop blowing this out of proportion. Don’t judge the people by the bad media and the super-comment-tribe, ever wonder why some call them nutizens?
Sorry I take it back. I didn’t see the post by Yeosu. Yeosu said it best :). I love it when stats are provided, and sweeping generalizations aren’t made.
I thought the format was strange and I got upset, but then I realized that it has been the same for many others sports. I was at the game, and enjoyed every moment of it. All the excitement and the suspense just made the experience even more grand. Overall, Korea did a great job and I’m happy with just that. In the end, I turned to the nearest Japanese fan and shook his hand.
There’s always a next time. A lot of Koreans seem to be upset at Kim Byung Hyun though. Whether the controversy about Ichiro is true or not, it still upsets me. I really liked Ichiro and thought of him as a great baseball player, but hearing about his lines and reactions disappoints me. Plus, I heard he said Korea smells like garlic. My mother used to tell me how my grandmother was always taunted by Japanese peers during the colonial era how she and other korean kids smelled like garlic.
Anyways, whatever, I enjoyed the game and I will be cheering on Japan against Cuba.
I say hats off to the WBC! I think this tournament is very entertaining and extreemly well organized.
so what about the cross over? finals or semi-finals, who cares at that point when two teams meet? to set a goal of geting to the semis or finals is gay, the point is to win the tournament!! to be the champions you must defeat two of the three teams left, regardless of the order. win or go home, may the best team win. stop crying.
It’s competative baseball in March, March, enjoy it for what it is, not what its not!
wjk “Castro must be smoking some Cubans right now.”
Call this his “Brokeback Moment”.
“How can you generalize all Koreans according to one silly article and few crazy netizens?”
I agree, and have found myself avoiding this blog just because it seems to cover only the inflamatory side of the Korean media. This blog of late has riled that poop, and is putting me in a bad mood when I go out face Koreans, damnit.
No Sir, that article is not worthy of translation.
(Now that I have yelled at you all, I feel much better)
The only ones with a legitimate gripe with the WBC were the Cubans, for not being allowed to play in the U.S.A.
“I agree, and have found myself avoiding this blog just because it seems to cover only the inflamatory side of the Korean media. This blog of late has riled that poop, and is putting me in a bad mood when I go out face Koreans, damnit.”
i agree.
and iheartblueballs is a m*r*n who knows nothing about baseball.
It seemed sort of unfair that South Korea was eliminated just because of one bad inning in the game. I think Japan just had a lucky streak in the 7th inning, because Japan was scoreless in all the other innings. The ESPN commenters even said that the wind died down during the 7th inning, which definitely helped Japan’s homeruns. Before the 7th inning, the commenters said that the strong winds were working against the hitters, especially in one of the largest baseball fields in the major league. In the earlier innings, there were a few times that Korean batters almost made homeruns, but just came up short. Also, after the 7th inning, there was a 20 minute rain delay, which may have hindered the Koreans from making a strong rally in the last two innings.
The fact that Japan won had more to do with luck than skills.
Mi Hwa–
Luck, my ass. The US government controls the weather.
Since we’ve already read some comments from some Korean netizens at the Naver site like “양키새끼들.. 다 미제놈들 때문이다” (”Yangkee bastards.. it’s all their fault”).
I wanted to balance that out by pointing to what other Korean netizens who don’t buy into the anti american streak that is prominent in the current younger population of Koreans. These are comments taken from another trash news site the Ohmynews. There are some hate comments as expected, but there are sensible comments like these.
“아쉽지만 이젠 일본을 응원해주자.”
“It’s dissapointing, but let’s cheer for Japan.”
“뭐 야구야 진건 진거고 눈물날만큼 열심히 뛰어준 우리나라 선수들에게 고맙고 …”
“Baseball, a loss is a loss, I thank all the Korean players who played with their sweat and tears”.
“우리팀 잘 했습니다.. 다만 좀 겸손했으면…”
“Our team played well.. just that I wish they were a bit more humble..”
“선수들은 우승이라도 한 것처럼 태극기를 마운드에 세우지 않나
아무리 우리와 과거사 많았지만 상대방을 생각하면
너무 심한 행동”
“the players acted like they won it all, they stuck a flag on the mound, and even if there have been lot problems with history, if I’m in the shoes of the opposition team, it’s unacceptable behavior”
“패배자인 상대방을 배려하는
성숙한 승리자의 모습을 보여야 한다”
“we have to be gracious winners and think about the losers”.
I could be wrong, and I don’t know about you, but I’ve yet to see the mainstream press blaming the loss on the US or getting all monkied up over being ‘unfair format’. Maybe it’s too early to say that, or Korea is finally learning something, I don’t know. But could it be that if you look hard enough, you’ll find something unflattering things about Korean society and some of the jackasses in Korean society?
Well, you have to be good to be lucky. You also have to be good if you want to trash talk before the game. If you can’t back up the trash talking on the field, then I lose all respect of that athlete. Ichiro, despite being despised (although at least one Korean ohmynews netizen asks “이치로가 잘못한 게 무에지? ” - “What did Ichiro do wrong?”) , did back up his talk by having an excellent game, helping Japan to win.
Koreans also shouldn’t forget that luck also helped out Korean team. Yes, the formatting is regrettable and they should change it for the next time. But the same formatting also could’ve helped Korea since they only ended up playing team USA and team Mexico, only once each. Could Korea been able to win 3 games against team USA and win 3 games against Mexico? That is debatable. I would say the formatting actually helped Korea into the Semi finals, considering the fact that their hitting was woefully weak.
For the Korean team, this is something to build upon for the next time. They need to improve the hitting. There’s no reason why they can’t hit like the Japanese team when Korean players are generally bigger and stronger physically. They need to work on that aspect of the game, especially putting emphasis on being consistent. Baseball is like that, being consistent winners is the key to being labeled a good team. Because even the weakest teams can string up a winning streak, but it’s another story if they can keep it up for 162 games.
Dissabpointed but very proud of our team…. well done team Korea…. we beat all the powerful team in the world and we lost to Japan…. I congratulate JApanese team for winning the game and I hope they beat cuba to show the world that Asian baseball is not Triple A or Double A but as good as big league teams….
I don’t know what the hell is wrong with this Robert guy but you gotta chill out man…… and you gotta stop bitching about us bitching….. at least you seem happy that we lost so i’m glad……
i get this vague feeling that a lot of you don’t regularly watch baseball. It’s kind of apparent in the comments. But, this is great, because WBC drew people to baseball. So, WBC is a wild success.
http://news.naver.com/sports/i.....amp;page=1
Quite an entertaining cartoonist, even if you don’t like baseball. Go buy his book, if you like his work. I have no relation or interest concerning the person. It was just a web dig, and I like it a lot. I don’t think I’ve seen his book in the US Korean bookstores.
The ESPN commenters even said that the wind died down during the 7th inning, which definitely helped Japan’s homeruns. Before the 7th inning, the commenters said that the strong winds were working against the hitters, especially in one of the largest baseball fields in the major league.
Sort of a reverse kamikaze, eh?
A divine lack of wind.
CM wrote:
Gerry Writes: Yes, you are wrong.
SBS 8 O’clock News: “Korean Team Victim to WBC’s Goofy Rules”
MBC Newsdesk: “Victim to Goofy Rules”
KBS 9 O’clock News: “Korea Biggest Victim of WBC Game Format”
In general, the Korean media is blaming the US and WBC for Korea’s lose, and tried to demonize Ichiro, who had simply expressed confidence at winning.
CM, you obviously can read Korean, so why are you so uninformed in regard to what the Korean media is saying about the game?
Not to mention I heard the radio bitching about it on the way home last night and people bitching about it during dinner. Do “most” Koreans blame the US for Korea getting eliminated? Don’t know. Don’t have the stats. But I do know its more than just a few fringe media and crazy netizens.
Mi Hwa
“It seemed sort of unfair that South Korea was eliminated just because of one bad inning in the game. I think Japan just had a lucky streak in the 7th inning, because Japan was scoreless in all the other innings. The ESPN commenters even said that the wind died down during the 7th inning, which definitely helped Japan’s homeruns. Before the 7th inning, the commenters said that the strong winds were working against the hitters, especially in one of the largest baseball fields in the major league. In the earlier innings, there were a few times that Korean batters almost made homeruns, but just came up short. Also, after the 7th inning, there was a 20 minute rain delay, which may have hindered the Koreans from making a strong rally in the last two innings.
The fact that Japan won had more to do with luck than skills.”
I am sorry but that is the biggest load of crap that I have read about this situation. If you want to talk about luck…
Hits: Japan 74 (1st) Korea 53 (6th)
Homeruns: Japan 10 (1st) Korea 6 (7th)
RBI: Japan 47 (1st) Korea 26 (6th)
AVG: Japan .314 (1st) Korea .243 (1th)
Stop making excuses. Korea played well and they were 6-0 because of timely defence and timely hitting. THAT is what makes a winning team. Japan got screwed in one game, and did not get the timely hitting in the two games against Korea.
As for your comments about being unfair because of one bad inning? How about changing that it was unfair for Japan to lose twice because of two bad pitches and once because of a dumbass umpire?
In the real world, sports happen. Get over it.
ps. I am disappointed that Korea lost, but comments like this one (and the media reports) are just asinine that do nothing but tarnish the accomplishments of the team. I am glad the players have more sense.
aaaahhhh crap….
AVG: Japan .314 (1st) Korea .243 (10th)
And I guess it goes without saying what Pressian’s take on the tournament is?
결국 미국이 파놓은 함정에 빠진 한국
Uh, I’m sorry.
Well, then gbevers I guess I spoke too soon. Looks like it was only inevitable before some articles are written whining about the format. But I do not think they represent the overall big picture of the mood at all, as written by one Korean netizen who didn’t agree at all with the headline replied back in one of your links:
한국 언론 아쉽네요, ‘희생양’이라니요, 지니까 ‘희생양’이라는 말까지 하네요, 승승장구 계속 이겼다며, 이런 얘기가 나왔을까 하네요. 룰이 어찌 됐건 잘 싸웠고, 마지막은 실수가 있었습니다. 그런데 그걸 이건 어쩠고 저쩠고 다른 탓으로 돌리는 한국언론 부끄럽네요. 이런 기사, 이치로의 “이길 만한 팀이 이겼다”라는 미성숙한 발언과 다를바 없다고 생각합니다
There’s tons of headline articles written about this matchup and to pick out few headlines that support your assertions that there’s an overwhelming one sided opinion that “they was robbed”, is not exactly accurate is it? Picking out the few articles, ignoring their dissenting views, and ignoring other articles.. hmmm…. I don’t know..
I didn’t bother posting anti-american or anti-japanese comments because they’ve already been done before and we know those feelings exist. All I’m saying is let’s have some balance. Gbevers, I didn’t say there were going to be no whiners in Korea. Go back and read what I said. I said let’s present all the views that are out there in Korea - not just the ones that support your views of Koreans.
I guess I shouldn’t link to this either. Or its 7,000 comments. Wouldn’t want to put anyone in a foul mood before they go out to meet Koreans
a few very simple facts some of you can’t seem to comprehend:
1. the korean baseball federation approved the format of the tournament before it started. they approved it and they agreed to play in it. they knew before the tournament started that it was possible to play japan three times. they approved it anyway. they agreed with the other 16 countries that the single elimination format was acceptable. they gave up their right to have “legitimate gripes” about the format the day they signed on. if they truly believed the format was punishing korea and only korea, they would not have agreed to it. but they did. in case you still haven’t comprehended that fact, let me repeat: they agreed to the format. gripes about format should have been taken up before the tournament when they had a chance to induce change, not afterwards in a search for excuses.
2. every team played by the same format. those of you claiming that korea was disadvantaged by the format, also must agree that every other team was disadvantaged as well, making your point null and void. single elimination puts every team at risk of being sent home with one bad game. EVERY TEAM. i realize that koreans want to believe they were the special exception, as they always like to claim, but the format applied to all teams. if the dominican republic played cuba 7 times, they probably win 5 of them. they didn’t, they played once, and cuba won. that’s the beauty of single-elimination…the best team IN THAT GAME moves on.
3. international tournaments involving this many teams ALWAYS use single eliminiation in the final rounds. they don’t have 2 months to complete the tournament, they have 3 weeks. if they had 2 months, and MLB would allow their players to miss all of spring training and the first month of the regular season, they could have a true tournament with best of 5 series in the elimination rounds or a double-elimination college world series type tournament. they don’t have that time and it’s a pipe dream to pretend like they will. olympic hockey, the world cup, olympic basketball…they all use pool play followed by single elimination because they can’t have the tournaments drag on for months. it may not lend the “authenticity” to the champion that you require, but it’s a reality of international tournaments with large numbers of teams, so deal with it because it’s not going to change.
in fact, in the 2002 world cup, if korea had played italy or spain in best of 7 series, they likely would have lost. they were a hot team at the time, and won SINGLE ELIMINATION games. did you hear koreans complain about that SINGLE ELIMINATION format? of course not, because korea won those games. there was no need for a scapegoat.
4. korea would be stupid to lobby for format change for the next WBC anyway. the fact is, shorter formats with fewer games and single elimination favor weaker teams with less depth. and yes, i’m including korea in the group of weaker teams with less depth. if korea played best of 3 or 5 or 7 against the USA or dominican republic or mexico, their chances of winning decrease significantly. longer series require pitching depth, which korea doesn’t have. they have a couple front-line starters and a few dependable relievers…and then the drop-off in talent is large. the short format suits them MUCH BETTER than a longer format because they can rely on their best pitchers exclusively without using their backups much.
longer series always favor the stronger, deeper teams. it’s why the yankees and red sox want every playoff series to be 7 games, while the marlins and diamondbacks want 3 game series. in the world of international baseball, korea is not the yankees or red sox, despite their fine run in this tournament. they should fight any change to the length of the format, because they stand a much better chance in single elimination than they would in a series format.
which makes all the crying about single elimination doubly stupid. korea couldn’t ask for a better format considering the makeup of its team.
5. all the whining about the format is coming only because korea lost. if this tournament had a longer format with double elimination or series, and korea lost in that, then the same people would be complaining that they should change it to single elimination. guaranteed. if korea had beaten japan last night, not a word would have been spoken about the format. the korean media wouldn’t be spouting conspiracy theories, and joe kim on the street wouldn’t be using the term “abnormal game schedules.” they’re searching for excuses and scapegoats, nothing more, nothing less.
the standard for judging the format, as always with anything involving korea, is that anything that benefits korea is good and anything that doesn’t is bad. korea wins, format good. korea loses, format bad.
6. G1, your joke about koreans not being bitter and simply “moving on with their lives” was one of the funniest things i’ve read in a long, long time. the idea that koreans don’t hold grudges and can easily move on had me spitting cherry coke all over my computer screen. as if korean school kids won’t be chanting ohno’s name and doing the hollywood action dance in 50 years. right. thanks for that gem.
7. the american conspiracy and format excuse has taken hold through the korean media and on the internet as the offical scapegoat for this event. one need only look around a bit to see that this is true. it will be added to the litany of other alleged international conspiracies against korea in a bid to keep their world champions down, and it will add to the perception that the majority of koreans have, that korea is regularly discriminated against and cheated by the major powers on the world stage.
and that’s a gigantic crock of bullshit for lack of a better term.
Hits: Japan 74 (1st) Korea 53 (6th)
Homeruns: Japan 10 (1st) Korea 6 (7th)
RBI: Japan 47 (1st) Korea 26 (6th)
AVG: Japan .314 (1st) Korea .243 (1th)
and to continue..
Pitching ERA: Japan 2.11 (3rd) Korea 2.00 (1st)
Pitching Wins: Japan 4-3 (5th) Korea 6-1 (1st)
Errors allowed: Japan 3 (4th) Korea 0 (1st)
sorry, i forgot one thing in my last post:
korea agreed to the format.
iheartblueballs, not that I disagree with everything you said, I think the Koreans are complaining not about having to play just single elimination games, they are complaining about having to play the same team in the same group, 3 times. But yeah, I agree it’s all hindsight, and people should stop whining, they’ve no ground to stand on.
sorry, I should have written “not that I disagree with most of what you said”..
“have found myself avoiding this blog just because it seems to cover only the inflamatory side of the Korean media” As opposed to the thoughtful, analytical, balanced side.
There is an irritating naivety in a lot of what the Korean media spews out, period.
Speaking of tabloid crap, Mr. Marmot, isn’t there some kind of nekkid actress scandal or racing queen, uh, news out there? It’s been a while…
Now that you mention it, michael, Harisu broke up with her 4-year-younger boyfriend a couple of days ago. Was going to mention it, but forgot about it after the visa issue translation.
i’m not sure i’ve mentioned this before, but they agreed to the format. so did they agree to the format without examining it and realizing they could potentially play japan three times, or are they just stupid and can’t comprehend 2 rounds of pool play followed by single elimination? in order to claim legitimate gripes, you have to agree that koreans are either whining crybabies who knew about the “bad format” but agreed to it anyway, or they’re incompetently dumb for not understanding the format in the first place. so which is it? neither option seems very inviting.
you really only have to ask yourself one simple question: if the situation were reversed, and japan had instead beaten korea twice before in pool play, gone 6-0, and then lost to korea in the single-elimination semi-final, how many complaints from the korean media and fans about the format do you think we would have heard? how many koreans would be claiming “abnormal U.S. schedules” for playing japan thrice?
if you said none, you are correct. and that’s exactly why any and all complaints about the format, for any reason, are horseshit. no exceptions.
these are after-the-fact complaints to fit the shoe of korean failure.
giving even an ounce of legitimacy to their gripes and encouraging their continued quest for scapegoats whenever they lose at anything, is only making the problem worse and feeding their victim syndrome. you go ahead and feed that beast if you want, but i’ll pass in favor of demanding accountability for their actions, performances, and AGREEMENT TO THE FORMAT.
iheartblueballs,
Let’s take Korea out of the argument for a moment, since my point is not to condone the level of whining that is now taking place by the media and netizens. I think a fan of ANY baseball team that has gone 6-0 to reach a single-elimination semi-final only to be eliminated in one game would be inclined to think “Well, that sucks! I wish they would come up with a better format next time.” And then perhaps bitch about it a little over a beer with friends. Of course, that should be the extent of it. That was the point I was trying to make.
By the way, the College World Series takes only ten days to complete. Which is about the same amount of time it is taking the WBC from the start of the second round to the championship game.
And one more thing. Where did you get the idea that Boston and New York would prefer a longer series? It’s the teams with a lack of pitching depth that want shorter series. And the Red Sox and Yankees in recent years certainly qualify as two teams that have lacked pitching depth.
OK, that’s a start…any scandals with women who were women their entire life?
cm
I apologize. I did not make my point clear. I know that Korea was the statistical leader im most, if not all,defensive categories. The posting of statistics was primarily in response to the last statement that Japan won by luck - not skill. That would imply that Japan was incredibly lucky for the duration of the tourny in most statistical categories. I was merely calling the bullshit statement.
I will repeat it once again. Winning and losing is all about timely hitting and defence (good pitching is a given). Korea had it for two of the three games. Japan had it for 1 of the three. Of the three wins, none were due to luck > skill.
Now where are da wimmin!
Wow, sixty messages in less than twenty-four hours about Koreans making a big deal over a ball game. Ironic much?
For the record, I think the flag-planting was “oba,” but the griping about how they lost is sort of normal (and it’s certainly NOT the only reaction in Korea).
About the griping, I’m reminded of a different team in Anaheim last October who felt that “we wuz robbed.” People in OC griped about it for months — still gripe about it — because that’s what people, including the local press and the venerably vaunted netizens, do when the home team loses in circumstances that seem a little less than a clear-cut and deserved loss.
It’s hardly a uniquely Korean trait.
At any rate, I’ll be happy if most people do what the people around me did yesterday (and did with the World Cup in 2002): just be happy that they did as well and got as far as they did. Only one person had anything bad to say about Ichiro, but it came with a mixed message.
But if people are going to be angry, maybe it’s better to have it directed primarily at Ichiro (who seems to have brought some of it on himself) than at Japan in general.
My twenty-won worth. Good day.
“I used to like Ichiro but after learning that he hates South Koreans, I don’t like Ichiro, either.”
http://detectovision.com/?p=543
Sometimes it’s just the South Korean media hating on the South Koreans. Or would that be the media hating on the Japanese… or the gyopos hating on the… okay, now I’m confused.
iheartblueballs
I don’t know why you would say “you go ahead and feed that beast” to me.
Like I said I agree with you whining about the format is just whining. You don’t need to explain it all over again.
What I do disagree with you is that this is 2002 winter olympics all over again where the headlines are all completely plastered with Ohno robbing Koreans. If this was an earthquake of 7 richter scale, this one’s a mild 2 at most.
Kushido,
In response to a reporter’s question, Ichiro simply said, “The best team won,” and he was right. He does not deserve all the crap that Koreans are wriing about him.
cm, when i read your post, it sounded to me like you thought the complaint about playing the same team 3 times was legitimate.
“We aimed to go to the semifinals and made it in the end. I’m satisfied. We’ve already won twice so I don’t think we lost to Japan,” Lee Seung-yeop of South Korea said. “We did our best but I’m afraid there has been something not proper about the rules in the event, as long as we went 6-1 and still have to be eliminated.”
This from the Times. I think Blueballs has made the argument quite well that if you signed up to the format, don’t fricken complain (although, how about some capitals in those posts, eh? ;-))
Anyway, it’s sad to see a player making this kind of comment.
One more thing–the English DongA and the Korea Herald have nothing on this game. What’s more, the Herald has as anemic anti-war protest as its top web story–something that had to happen about the same time as the game, no? Not too impressive, guys.
same 2 questions to you yeosu, since no one else seems willing to answer them:
1. are koreans whining crybabies for knowing about the format beforehand and accepting it, but complaining about it afterward, or are they stupid for not understanding the format and agreeing to it anyway?
2. if the situation were reversed, and japan had instead beaten korea twice before in pool play, gone 6-0, and then lost to korea in the single-elimination semi-final, how many complaints from the korean media and fans about the format do you think we would have heard? how many koreans would be claiming “abnormal U.S. schedules” for playing japan thrice?
i look forward to some honest answers.
that’s patently false. had the US gone 6-0 and lost in the semi-finals, i’d have said “Well, that sucks! I hope the American team doesn’t choke in the semis next time.” and even though the format was not conducive to success for the US, i haven’t seen a single article in the american media blaming the format for US failure. not one.
by the same token, if you watch korea lose a soccer game when an opposing team converts a corner kick for a goal, do you react by saying “Well, that sucks! I wish they would make corner kicks illegal for the next game”?
i know that single-elimination tournaments are unpredictable and do not always reward the best overall teams. the US hockey team in 1980 taught me that. as did NC state in 83. and villanova in 85 (sorry robert). and shitloads of other examples. so when upsets occur, i don’t cry about the format and wish for change over a beer with my friends. and if i did, i wouldn’t have any friends left, because i’d be a pathetic whining pussy.
if koreans claim they aren’t aware of the nature of single-elimination tournaments and try to plead ignorance, i have to call bullshit. seeing as how the whole country was obsessed with the single-elimination world cup 4 years ago, and in fact benefitted from that exact format by beating superior teams in 1 game rather than having to play series where they certainly would not have had the same success in a multiple-trial format, claiming ignorance of the format doesn’t wash.
world cup, single-elimination good because korea won. WBC, single-elimination bad because korea lost. it’s that simple.
the 2006 CWS starts june 2nd and ends june 26th, has 64 teams, is the sole championship tournament for college players (as opposed to a peripheral tournament like the WBC), and is not subject to the same time restrictions that the WBC is. there are no professional leagues that have a vested interest in keeping the CWS as short as possible. the ncaa is free to make it as long or as short as they please. the WBC is not. it’s useless comparing apples and oranges.
as a general rule, the sox and yanks have more overall team depth, at every position, in comparison to other teams. their payrolls ensure this year after year. it’s true that last year the pitching for each was relatively weak. in the last 5 years though, they’ve each consistently had more quality starters and more bullpen depth than other teams in the AL. and they each will always prefer longer series, no question.
Once again, iheartblueballs, read what I wrote:
“But yeah, I agree it’s all hindsight, and people should stop whining, they’ve no ground to stand on.”
And yes, this argument that Korea was cheated because of this format is horse shit. But I said this before the semi finals and I’ll say it again, the formatting has to be changed for the next games, it’s ridiculous that teams end up playing each other 3 times in such a short competition. Now before you misunderstand again, that’s totally different from saying Korea was cheated because of the format, blah blah blah .
i’ve stated several times that i have no problem with criticism of the format in terms of improving it for 2009. i wouldn’t be so harsh on the korean media if they were in fact putting it in that context. but they’re not. they’re playing the conspiracy and victim cards.
again.
“We aimed to go to the semifinals and made it in the end. I’m satisfied. We’ve already won twice so I don’t think we lost to Japan,’’ Lee Seung-yeop of South Korea said. “We did our best but I’m afraid there has been something not proper about the rules in the event, as long as we went 6-1 and still have to be eliminated.’’
Wedge, you posted the above article quoting Lee. That’s fine.
But do you also have any opinion on Chan Ho Park’s message to his ‘friend’ Ichiro and his former team mate Otsuka Akinori, wishing them victory over Cuba? Is Chan Ho Park another whining Korean too?
Look, I posted one comment that I found in the English press (I can read Hangul, but my vocabulary isn’t up to snuff enough to read a paper). If Chan Ho Park has made sportsmanlike comments then that’s great. If the rest of the team has made similar comments, then great.
I personally think these guys played well and should be proud of what they accomplished. Koreans in general should be proud. Making excuses only diminishes what they have done. Although if they want to vilify Kim Byung-hyun then I’m all in favor ;-).
Here’s another whining Korean player cry baby.
Quote from right fielder Lee Jin Young who saved Korea couple of times with great defensive plays.
실력이 못 따랐다.
We didn’t have the ability.
-오늘 비가 내렸는데 영향 있었나.
Q/ Did the rain have any effect?
투수에겐 영향이 있었겠지만 개인적으로는 없었다.
It probably had effect on pitching, but personally, no.
-우에하라와 붙어본 느낌은.
Q/ What did you think of Uehara (Japan starting pitcher)
일본 최고 투수라고 들었다. 역시 볼이 좋았고 포크볼은 치기 힘들었다.
I heard he was the best pitcher in Japan. Sure enough, it was difficult to hit his forkball.
Summary of the competition
▲유능한 선배들 덕에 4강까지 갔다. 더 열심히 해 나중엔 우승하도록 노력하겠다
Because of competent senior players we went to the semi. We’ll work harder to win it all the next time.
Of course, players like Lee Jin Young won’t make the story here because there would be nothing controversial about him.
Look, the format of the WBC was not the best you could have. It was screwed up to a clear extent. See, if South Korea lost to Japan in the 2nd game, say 7-6, and the US won over Mexico, US advances with Japan. Doesn’t matter that South Korea swept round 1, 3-0, doesn’t matter that South Korea beat Mexico and US. US gets a 2-1 record for getting a cheesy victory over Japan, and a tight victory over Mexico. Japan gets a 2-1 record for beating Mexico and South Korea. South Korea gets a 2-1 record for beating US and Mexico. But, but, but ! South Korea loses out in the tie breaker because they allowed too many runs. That’s essentially how Canada got screwed. Tie breaker rule in this series was not the ideal way to go, and that’s how Japan advanced. Quit talking crap about Korea. They have a point. It’s essentially the weirdest way to advance in any tournament I have heard of.
Good lord. They do not have a point.
I do believe that every international tournament will have a system in place if there is a tie. The competing teams know what it takes to advance in advance.
So what is better? Differential? Runs scored per inning? Team batting average? Team ERA? Go 6-0 in the prelims and get a bye to the final?
Here is a little reading for you
Ties shall be broken in the following order of priority:
* The team that defeated the other tied team head-to-head in a given Round shall be ranked higher in the pool standings for such Round.
* The tied teams shall be ranked in the standings for that Round according to fewest runs allowed divided by the number of innings (including partial innings) played in defense in the games in that Round between the teams tied.
* The tied teams shall be ranked in the standings according to fewest earned runs allowed divided by the number of innings (including partial innings) played in defense in the games in that Round between the teams tied.
* The tied teams shall be ranked in the standings according to highest batting average in games in that Round between the teams tied.
* Standings shall be determined by the drawing of lots, conducted by WBCI.
Note: Standings and Tie-Breaking Procedures are based on IBAF rules.
Got it?
1. are koreans whining crybabies for knowing about the format beforehand and accepting it, but complaining about it afterward, or are they stupid for not understanding the format and agreeing to it anyway?
A bit of a loaded question but - the Koreans who are complaining about it vigorously are whining crybabies.
2. if the situation were reversed, and japan had instead beaten korea twice before in pool play, gone 6-0, and then lost to korea in the single-elimination semi-final, how many complaints from the korean media and fans about the format do you think we would have heard? how many koreans would be claiming “abnormal U.S. schedules” for playing japan thrice?
None. But nor would a Red Sox fan complain about something that benefitted their team at the expense of the Yankees (and vice versa). You provide a weak example here.
so when upsets occur, i don’t cry about the format and wish for change over a beer with my friends
Nor do I, if we are talking about the Super Bowl (I’m a Seahawks fan) or NCAA tournament (go ‘Zags) because these are games in which the outcome is not at least fifty percent decided by one player. And it would be ridiculous for any American to blame the format for Team USA’s failure since they played so poorly on a regular basis. But let’s imagine that you support a team in a tournament with four or five very good pitchers. Your team manages to go undefeated until it reaches the semi-final single elimination round. Then your team runs into a team with ONE Pedro Martinez/Randy Johnson-type dominating pitcher who mows through your team’s lineup and just like that your team is done. Can you honestly say that you wouldn’t take even the slightest issue with the format of the tournament? I’m not talking about sour grapes. I just mean that, “Hey. That sucked (okay, okay - “That was disappointing). Let’s fix this for the next tournament.”
the 2006 CWS starts june 2nd and ends june 26th, has 64 teams…
The college baseball playoffs begin on June 2nd and has 64 teams which vie for the chance to play in the CWS. The CWS starts on June 16th and finishes on June 25/26th and consists of eight teams.
College World Series Website
You guys are way too hard on the Koreans. Koreans have a great point. I find it hypocritical of you US citizens and Canadians who know very well that in the NBA, they fixed the 1st round rule formats, because they felt that the #1 got upset too easily by the 8th. (So, they went from 5 to out of 7) That, the NFL gives a bye to the team with the good record, so that they won’t get upset in a one game contest by an inferior team so early in the tournament. That MLB really hated the 5 game 1st round playoff format, because there were lots of tops seeds getting trounced (Atlanta), but they keep it so, because some Wild Card Citites bring lots of fans and money (SF Giants, NY Mets, etc). No one is asking for the tournament to replace Japan with Korea or anything like that. Koreans are just saying it’s a weird system, that the public is not used to. After all, the public buys tickets, watches tv, buys merchandise. Isnt that why the NFL, and NBA, and MLB have tinkered with their playoff formats after recent upsets or undesirables, from mainly the perspective of the crowd, the masses? Instant replay, call challenge, etc? They’re just saying the system sucks, so they want a better system in the future. Koreans have a great point. You guys are the same people who are asking for a playoffs in NCAA football. Idiots.
To Goat: How do you explain the fact that Japan scored all 6 runs in one inning, but nothing in all the other innings? The answer is that Japan got lucky in their offense and South Korea got unlucky in their defense, in just that one inning. The wind condition was also a factor, as the ESPN commenters noted. The skill level of the players do not vary that much from inning to inning.
2. if the situation were reversed, and japan had instead beaten korea twice before in pool play, gone 6-0, and then lost to korea in the single-elimination semi-final, how many complaints from the korean media and fans about the format do you think we would have heard? how many koreans would be claiming “abnormal U.S. schedules” for playing japan thrice?
This should be changed to
2. if the situation were reversed, and japan had instead beaten korea twice before in pool play, gone 6-0, and then lost to korea in the single-elimination semi-final, how many complaints from the japanese media and fans about the format do you think we would have heard? how many japanese would be claiming “abnormal U.S. schedules” for playing korea thrice?
Considering the bitter rivalry between the two sides, I would bet that japanese would not have kept quiet either. This is a phenomenon which reaches across all sports fans of all races - it gives them something to talk about over a beer. Korean media however, I agree loves controversy, and they could learn to present a fair argument like Yeosu did. But that wouldn’t exactly make for a controversial headline would it.
that’s patently false. had the US gone 6-0 and lost in the semi-finals, i’d have said “Well, that sucks! I hope the American team doesn’t choke in the semis next time.”
That’s patently false? You speak for all of USA? when I have already heard plenty of criticism from non-Koreans on the format. Yeosu and cm made very valid comments and your attempt to drown them out with your repeated ramblings (we got your point the first time round) did not work to counter their arguments at all.
and even though the format was not conducive to success for the US, i haven’t seen a single article in the american media blaming the format for US failure. not one.
sorry i have to laugh at this one, becuase US played like crap and even had a second chance given to them when Korea beat Japan - so the format actually helped them out and they only have themselves to