Not everyone has given up on Dr. Hwang, it would appear.
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Not everyone has given up on Dr. Hwang, it would appear.
Bad Behavior has blocked 23320 access attempts in the last 7 days.
68 Comments
Does anyone find this the least bit surprising?
After all, the real story was not that someone hoodwinked all of us - there is no shortage of con men in our country. The real story is the inferiority complex that made us so desperate to believe in a hoaxter, the sole piece of evidence being his race. “He is Korean”, as one supporter expressed it to me the other day.
Anyone can parade a dog in front of the cameras and claim he is a clone. Or for that matter declare unilaterally, as SNU did that based on “complicated tests”, Snuppy is “real”. As unconvincing as any of this is to international science, we have a third peice of evidence even more compelling - he’s Korean.
You know, Mizar5, you can make your point without pretending to be Korean.
Next, the Marmot is going to demand a DNA test of Mizar5
Lol, Mr. Marmot. What makes you think I’m not “pretending” to be “pretending” I’m Korean?
Michael, do you mean that if I turn out to be a clone, there’s no doubt I’m Korean?
Can I pretend to be a Marmot instead?
Mizar5, you are so silly.
You’re a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, encased in a mystery topped with chocolate sauce, Mizar5.
Sally forth, Mizar5. ???!
You know, Mizar5, you can make your point without pretending to be Korean.
Seems to work well for you.
So, what happened to Mizars 1~4?
About the OP, you know something is beyond hope in Korea when it devolves into a “candlelight vigil.”
“So, what happened to Mizars 1~4?”
You don’t want to know…technically, the star Mizar has only 4 planets. The Mizar 5 thing is an inside joke started by Steely Dan that has astrologers just rolling on the floor. Unfortunately, with Steely Dan fans now fewer than astrologers and Trekies increasingly getting a life and moving out of their parents’ basements, I’m now attempting to cross-over to blog-posting nerds in remote reaches of the planet that nobody really gives a s**t about.
It’s like that guy once said who misquoted Oliver Stone’s line from JFK”: “a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, encased in a mystery topped with chocolate sauce.”
(…and as far as I’m concerned the movie JFK was an elaborate a cover-up by the only people capable of having actually pulled the whole conspiracy off - Hollywood.)
Seems to work well for you
I can’t seem to find my handy passive aggression decoder ring, so what is this supposed to mean? When has Marmot ever pretended to be Korean?
That’s interesting, Mizar5, I misquoted a line I’d never heard before from a movie I’ve never seen (believe me, I didn’t think my quip was anything original in the first place).
That’s the great thing about this here Internet gizmo, everybody can pretend to be somebody they really are!
House Koreans and field Koreans.
I was busy writing to Korean DC science gallary, one of the original breakers of Hwang’s evil handiwork.
They are worried about these “patriotic” Koreans who support Hwang even after he is found out to be a liar. These Ajummas and Ajussis still think Hwang should be given a chance to replicate his discoveries! Mamma Mia.
They desperately want an idol. A person to represent Korea. A person they can admire and look up to. A person who “represent what is good about Korea”.
They will adore Hwang for a few more days - till the details about Hwang’s wanton misuse of research funds are made public.
Baduk, some details are coming out now. Hwang gave Park Ky-young 200 million won when she was at Sunchon Univ. for research that wasn’t connected to his. Park of course later became a presidential advisor to Roh and signed off on one of Hwang’s papers in Science.
Hwang got a lot of gov’t money, and how he spent it will be telling.
If korea wants an idol they should start korean idol. All they need is a british guy who speaks korean. For anyone who doesnt understand what i just said i just made a really unfunny joke about a horrible show running in the U.S. Now that i explained the joke its even more unfunnier. Yeah i know dont quit my day job.
Even the former minister of misinformation, Chung was on record saying that Dr. Hwang should be allowed to continue his work so that he might “rise again”. As predicatably pathetic as Chung’s remarks may be, it is understandable that Koreans (and humans everywhere) should want to believe in something. This is human nature. I only wish that people were more careful in what they believe in and why.
When has Marmot ever pretended to be Korean?
“Koehler began to form a new perspective on life that he would only later learn was that of a Confucian scholar. From that point on he lived simply, wore only local garments (a practice he would continue in Korea) and rejected most Western sensibilities.”
Here’s the link to that quote:
http://english.ohmynews.com/ar.....;back_url=
Hell, I hadn’t seen that interview before…guess the Marmot is an indulgent guy since he is enthusiastic about Confucianism and I slag on it all the time here…aigo! Mianhamnida!
Sorry, but nothing Marmot has done constitutes an attempt to actually pretend to be Korean, nor has he ever been any kind of knee jerk, brainwashed, paid mouthpiece for Korea (which, if you were less passive-aggressive, you might have directly stated by now).
Sorry, but nothing Marmot has done constitutes an attempt to actually pretend to be Korean, nor has he ever been any kind of knee jerk, brainwashed, paid mouthpiece for Korea
I do not think anyone has ever accused the Marmot of being a “paid” mouthpiece for Korea, but the Marmot has his biases, just like anyone else. I notice them when he remains quiet on certain issues or when he refuses to link to sites like “Occidentalism.”
It should not matter what nationality Mizar5 is, or what nationality he pretends to be; the message is what should matter. By accusing Mizar5 of not being a Korean, the Marmot seemed to be trying to downplay Mazar5’s message, which was a message that seemed to explain the situation quite well.
Personally, I think people like the Marmot, Orackay, and Kushibo have gone a little bit too native. At one time or another, they have all flashed their academic creditials and stressed the fact that they are not Korean in what I saw as an attempt to claim that their biased views are somehow academically or nation-neutrally objective.
I respect the Marmot, Orackay, and Kushibo, but, com’on; let’s not kid ourselves.
Correction: Orackay should be Oranckay. He does not like it when I misspell his name, even though it is just one of many words I misspell.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
I do not think anyone has ever accused the Marmot of being a “paid” mouthpiece for Korea, but the Marmot has his biases, just like anyone else. I notice them when he remains quiet on certain issues or when he refuses to link to sites like “Occidentalism.”
I’m not going to speak for the Marmot, but not listing “Occidentalism” may have little to do with Marmot’s biases on issues Shakuhachi addresses and a lot more to do with how those issues are addressed.
It should not matter what nationality Mizar5 is, or what nationality he pretends to be; the message is what should matter.
I agree with you, but only up until the point where someone such as Mizar5 uses his purported Koreanness as an authority from which to speak.
How ironic it would be if the ‘Korean’ lecturing everyone on the detrimental effects of Korean dishonesty turns out to be dishonest himself about being Korean.
By accusing Mizar5 of not being a Korean, the Marmot seemed to be trying to downplay Mazar5’s message, which was a message that seemed to explain the situation quite well.
That’s not the way I took it at all. When I read that, I supposed that Marmot was relying on site-related data through which you can often track, with reasonable accuracy, who is posting what and under what identities. Maybe Marmot discovered that Mizar5 is, for example, Silly Sally.
Personally, I think people like the Marmot, Orackay, and Kushibo have gone a little bit too native.
I’ve never met the Marmot, but I have corresponded with him a few times and I’ve read enough about him here to think I have a clear picture of where he’s coming from, and that description does not seem to fit him.
Oranckay is someone I have met and whose Korean language skills I have great admiration for. But his value as a Koreanist goes far beyond his ability to understand the nuances of the Korean press like a native. He remembers almost everything that has happened the entire time he’s been here, going back to the 1980s. His insight into Korean culture is also quite deep. He has not gone native, but he sees things in a native way enough to recognize that reactionary Korea-bashing is often far off the mark. There are a few things he says/does that I strongly disagree with, but I know that going against his judgement on a Korea-related matter would be to invite peril.
As for me, I am actually a moderate, middle-of-the-roader. You see me as perpetually arguing the Korean side of things because, no disrespect, from your orientation on most of those issues, that’s the general direction I’m in. But in more on-line and in-person discussions than I care to remember, I am fervently arguing in favor of USFK, US policy, sometime the Japanese government, fundamentalist Christians, and even the Bush Administration. That’s because the people I may be discussing things with are failing to see the other side and are as intransigent in their position on the other side as you are in yours. But from their point of view, my position in the middle puts me in the same direction that you’re in. I’ve had people complain that things I’ve written or said in a public forum were proof-positive of my pro-Bush bias (particularly for explaining his “axis of evil” comment).
The fact that I don’t agree with you that, for example, “Korea was Japan’s greatest ally” does not mean I’ve gone native. I’ve looked into these myriad issues quite thoroughly and it would be a bold-faced lie to suggest that I am always following the nationalist Korean point-of-view.
My blog’s signature post, the one that still gets me 1/4 of all my hits nearly a year later, is a skewering of a sacred cow of Korean nationalists, and I placed it prominently at the top of my “world-famous posts” list. The first time I ever had an on-line debate spill over into real life was when I was involved with defending a Japanese politician who said Korea had “received some benefit” from colonial rule.
And in 1994 and 1995, I spent many hours writing and trying to get published op-ed pieces calling for the preservation of Korea’s former capitol, which Kim Youngsam razed in a fit of nationalistic pandering. Even today, I feel a deep sense of sadness when I see pictures of that building, which should have been seen as a symbol of independence, not subjugation.
I dole out as much criticism for Roh Moohyun (maybe more) and his “diplomatic war” as I do for Koizumi and his Yasukuni visits (do a word search for kushibo and “diplomatic war”).
At one time or another, they have all flashed their academic creditials
Other than in my the personal data on my own blog, where I mention my past and current graduate studies, and in the “Ask Kushibo” blog, where my credentials are relevant (and I also allude to my own shortcomings), I don’t think I’ve “flashed my academic credentials,” as measly as they are. Not here at Marmot’s, anyway.
Also, I can’t recall Marmot or Oranckay doing so here. Their work experiences do come up, but in a relative situation, similar to when you’ve mentioned your work.
and stressed the fact that they are not Korean
When did I say or stress that I am not Korean? (Just because you can’t see me while standing on the beach in Ull?ng-do doesn’t mean I’m not Korean
). I’ve tried very hard to make my background a non-issue, even when others have tried to do so.
in what I saw as an attempt to claim that their biased views are somehow academically or nation-neutrally objective.
I don’t see that as Oranckay or Marmot, either.
I respect the Marmot, Orackay, and Kushibo, but, com’on; let’s not kid ourselves.
No offense, Gerry, but I don’t think you’re giving any of us a fair and objective read.
Mr.Bevers accusing others of bias.. hmmm… does some people have no shame?
I understand exacly where you’re coming from Kushibo. Of course everyone is biased to certain extent, but I appreciate that you try to be in the middle of the road as much as you can.
“I am fervently arguing in favor of USFK, US policy, sometime the Japanese government, fundamentalist Christians, and even the Bush Administration.”
These are easily filtered out when people just want to read what they want to read and believe. As far as they’re concerned, you’re an apologist.
I think Mr. Bevers doth protest too much…I don’t sense any agenda from Marmot or Kushibo, but most definitely from him. He seems to be on a crusade to save the poor, deluded Koreans from their own historical perspective, which he has neatly reduced into a sort of collective amnesia about the benefits of Japanese colonialism.
Sometimes the arcane history tit-for-tat is interesting, I learn a bit from it, but mainly it’s tedious as hell. Maybe the Marmot feels similarly and avoids these topics as well.
Yesterday’s exchange with Kushibo about the headless statue was far more interesting to me, not because I was involved, but because our personal beliefs were expressed civilly and neither side was trying to “win” — well, maybe Kushibo was
It wasn’t like I was trying to “prove” something I wasn’t there to witness….
And obviously if you dislike the content of someone’s blog, no one is putting a gun to your head to read it. I look at Mr. Bevers’ blog once in a while, it’s very interesting.
Marmot does a good job of reflecting Korean society in what he posts, even though he’s under no obligation to do so. There are several bloggers in Korea whose viewpoint I find naive or presumptuous–Marmot is not one of them.
Kushibo, your rhetoric about using my purported Koreanness as an authority from which to speak is either innocent misjudgement or patent falsehood and argumentum ad hominem. I have never once either used nationality as the authority for an assertion or raised the issue of my nationality.
But the unavoidable fact is that others do make an issue of the inappropriate subject of someone’s race or nationality. How many times have we seen ad hominem attacks on people here because they are Caucasion, American, Korean, Canadian or Kyopo? It is a eggregious logical fallacy to dismiss someone’s comments based on preconceptions about that person’s race.
Any keen reader understands the clear principle from which I honestly and forthrightly speak. Race or nationality does not disqualify you from contributing your particular perspective. Everyone should feel free to state their observations unconstrained by their race, gender or nationality. It’s that simple for those sincere enough to take this lesson to heart.
Michael,
The point I was trying to make was that we all have our biases, not that those of the Marmot, Kushibo, or Oranckay are unique or extreme. I mentioned them to give people a little better understanding of my biases and viewpoint, as if anyone really cared. If I had mentioned someone with extreme bias, then that would have told you very little about me.
My crusades seem to occur in spurts, and, yes, trying to get people to take a second look at colonial Korea is one of them.
I also find certain discussions tedious, or uninteresting. In fact, I have not even read the post on the headless statue, much less the comments about it, because of my lack of interest in the topic. That is how I avoid tedium.
I like the Marmot’s blog, too. That is why I regularly stop by.
Kushibo,
So you have been to Ulleungdo? Did you happen to go up to the mountaintop observation point and try to find Dokdo with your naked eye? I have wondered how easy it is to see, given its distance from the Ulleungdo and the weather conditions in the area, which tend to restrict visibility.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your views in your post above.
Gerry, you missed some scintillating discussion on the headless statue…. It’s hard not to take your comment that Marmot et al are a “little bit too native” as meaning they go to extremes. Kushibo in my opinion just likes to play devil’s advocate or rein in comments on Korea he thinks are too harsh, and Oranckay goes to great (and I think futile) lengths to portray the Korean left as more liberal in the Western sense than they actually are–but neither typically make grandoise claims. Marmot often expresses a realpolitik viewpoint on developments in Korea, but isn’t locked into it.
I don’t think any of these people would be mistaken for stereotypical Koreans based on their views. In fact, many of my Korean friends and coworkers speak far more severely about Korean society than we do.
In fact, many of my Korean friends and coworkers speak far more severely about Korean society than we do.
In which case I can only wonder why The Marmot cannot believe that Mizar5 is Korean.
I am also looking forward to seeing some blogging about the recent revelation of multiple post-liberation massacres of leprosy sufferers by Koreans.
In which case I can only wonder why The Marmot cannot believe that Mizar5 is Korean.
Because the Marmot happens to know he’s not.
And my comment above was not made to downplay Mizar5’s message. Does the fact that Mizar5 is a cracker just like me make his arguments any more or less valid? No. I simply wondered why he felt the need to bolster his arguments through an assumed Korean identity. Nothing more, nothing less. At any rate, Mizar5 says he’s never used his “Koreaness” as an authority from which to speak. OK, my bad. I guess there’s nothing more to argue here, then.
Marmot, out of curiousity, how is it that you know? Are we talking about gut instinct, or something certain?
Marmot, out of curiousity, how is it that you know? Are we talking about gut instinct, or something certain?
Something certain. But of course, there is no point in continuing this discussion, because as Mizar5 pointed out, he has never used his “Koreaness” as an authority from which to speak, so I guess it doesn’t matter what he says he is, right?
The accusation of this person or that person being biased is irrevelant. The mere act of holding an opinion, any opinion, including the so called ‘middle of the road’ opinion is an act of incredible bias against differing viewpoints.
Marmot is biased, Oranckay is biased, Kushibo is biased, Gerry Bevers is biased, and I am biased. Time to get over it.
Something certain. But of course, there is no point in continuing this discussion, because as Mizar5 pointed out, he has never used his “Koreaness” as an authority from which to speak, so I guess it doesn’t matter what he says he is, right?
Hahaha, well, you know I think that “koreaness” doesnt give the authority to speak on any subject, whether the possessor of the “koreaness” uses it or not ^^. Still, Mizar5 did seem to use being Korean as a launching point to criticise ‘his people’.
It is disappointing though - if Mizar5 were actually a kyopo as he claimed he was, then it would have shown refreshing intellectual diversity among the kyopo on Marmots blog. Now that he is shown not to be kyopo, we go back to the kyopo being a mindless hive-mind borg like entity all holding exactly the same opinions.
But of course, there is no point in continuing this discussion, because as Mizar5 pointed out, he has never used his “Koreaness” as an authority from which to speak, so I guess it doesn’t matter what he says he is, right?
Disingenuous.
It matters now because you made the claim. If you had not, then, it would have continued to be a case of the message over the messenger.
On the other hand, if we can accept your claims without any inkling of proof (which seems rather coyly unforthcoming), then it is rather disappointing to see Mizar5 to claim to be something s/he is not.
“I am also looking forward to seeing some blogging about the recent revelation of multiple post-liberation massacres of leprosy sufferers by Koreans.” Why? Some Koreans were intolerant shits, and so?
Every country has something to be ashamed of. From the 1930s through the 1950s the U.S. Defense Dept. ran experiments on soldiers involving radiation, without their permission or knowledge. That’s my country, I’m ashamed to say, and I’m certain most Koreans are also embarrassed about incidents like this.
All you can hope for is that some kind of remorse was shown later, that any surviving families got some symbolic compensation and that it never happens again. People do evil shit, and it should be brought to light, but it certainly is nothing particular to Koreans–but I’m sure you didn’t mean that.
If Marmot covers it, fine, but I’d rather see some blogging about the idiots on Korea’s National Human Rights Commission and the patently stupid “action plan” they’ve been pushing. And some more racing girls.
What an asinine comment. By that logic, nothing anywhere is news or worthy of comment.
No, Dogbert, by that logic you took a jab at what Marmot chooses to mention on this blog, suggesting that he is ignoring one incident in Korea because it reflects badly on Koreans. And you love to take potshots at Koreans. Kiss my ass.
If the race of the commenter is irrelevant, then there should be no need to refer to it. Who is the one that keeps doing that here?
Mizarv repeatedly speaks in the first person WRT Korea, and really, I cant think of anymore authoritative, ex cathedra way of speaking than straight from the horses mouth. More than anyone else here, it is he that has made an issue of his purported ethnicity, and it matters because he makes the claim. Everybody else has been content to speak objectively, and use third person pronouns regardless of our personal ethnicity. I have only pointed out that such claims are spurious for any number of reasons, among them that a Brooklynite fan of Steely Dan is far more likely to be a middle aged white male than anything else, and that it doesn’t make any linguistic sense to refer to a person of a race thats not your own as “house nigger.” (cf. urban dictionary) This certainly doesn’t constitute “proof” in any objective sense, but it should be more than enough for a reasonable person to doubt the credibility of claims to Koreanness.
Of course, you’ve already stated your belief that Timothy Mcveigh was a patriotic American fighter, so again, while that alone doesn’t constitute proof of your incompetence and tenuous grasp of reality, its certainly enough for a reasonable person to have substantial doubts thereon.
As far as the ceaseless passive aggressive mewling that Marmot doesn’t pimp your blog or that he doesn’t write up your particular pet issue. I might point out that hes already linked to Gerrys blog, and well, it’s his blog. If your pet blog is of interest to someone out there, surely it will be found; you aren’t going to live or die on his recommendation. If there’s some topic you want to discuss, you are free to ask Marmot here or via email, or start your own blog, and kvetch to your hearts content. There are a thousand other options out there. Youre a big boy now, don’t be a baby. Kvetching to Marmot isn’t going to be nearly as productive as taking action yourself. Get to it.
JYCE, to whom are you directing your ethnic anger?
Many black comedians have lines in their acts that would get white comedians hauled before human rights tribunals. Jewish writers can criticise Israeli policy and society, more insulated than others from the charge of anti-semitism. Their race automatically accords them certain liberties not shared by others. It’s not particularly fair, but it’s the way it is.
By calling himself Korean, Mizar5 collected some of those automatic rights for himself. It’s not something he’d selectively turn on or off, like Marmot says Mizar5 wasn’t doing. It was just there, hanging over every post he made.
Anyway, if Marmot says he knows Mizar5’s not Korean, that’s good enough for me. I don’t need to see IP logs and photos to believe him.
Looks like the normally voluble Mizar5 has suddenly taken the 5th. I’m guessing that the reason Marmot knows for sure is that Mizar5, or whoever he is, has not bothered to conceal the IP he uses to troll this and other blogs under different identities. I’m guessing 61.203.something right?
Busted!
I’m sorry, let me amend that to 61.32.230.something.
Hosim: “Anyway, if Marmot says he knows Mizar5’s not Korean, that’s good enough for me. I don’t need to see IP logs and photos to believe him.”
Really. Hosim?” I’ve got a bridge to sell you then. In fact, it’s named for Hwang Woo Suk…
The “certain” knowledge Marmot believes he has is just a tongue-in-cheek response to his direct question “Are you Korean?” My recollection of is that I said neither yes nor no, just “…well”.
My point stands unchallenged however: don’t worry whether people are obsessed with labling you. Call me a cracker, a banana, an oreo cookie or a gook, it’s all the same - a value judgement based on an expectation someone has of how someone of your particular race should behave. If someone feels uncomfortable relating to me without pidgeonholing or stereotyping me, then, be my guest.
If it makes someone feel good to defame an online character like myself, then he’s the one who has to live with the consequences of that choice. If someone wants to make false statements, to discredit an online character that’s his choice also. (ie. I’ve never stated “Timothy Mcveigh was a patriotic American fighter”!)
Character defamation of a virtual identity just doesn’t hurt me. But it does hurt you.
Ah, that Mizar makes sense!
When I first encountered racial prejudice years ago, it hurt a great deal. But I came to realize that the racial stereotype these people were reacting to was not an aspect of myself but rather an aspect of their own minds. And if you think I don’t act my race, then this is not my issue; it’s yours.
There are plenty of kyopo who are as reasonable and enlightened about this issue as I am. Stereotype and defame me if you will, but give them a chance.
Ba dum dum!
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
Just to clear up any confusion, it is Doggie that described Timothy McVeigh as a patriotic American fighter, and that is who I was addressing.
Otherwise, for Miz and his hapless believers, so so busted …
The “certain” knowledge Marmot believes he has is just a tongue-in-cheek response to his direct question “Are you Korean?” My recollection of is that I said neither yes nor no, just “…well”.
Crap - you ought to own up to it. Please don’t embarrass yourself (or insult regular bloggers) further by extending an untruth. We have read your posts, after all, which often use ‘we’ or ‘our’ when discussing things Korean. If you’re not Korean, then you preyed on a presumption of readers, no matter whether we ’should’ hold it.
Regardless of any semantic spin, it still comes down to BS if it’s not true. Or, for all your enlightened reality, didn’t you learn that?
Kushibo, your rhetoric about using my purported Koreanness as an authority from which to speak is either innocent misjudgement or patent falsehood and argumentum ad hominem.My innocent misjudgement, if what Marmot says is true, is in accepting that you who refers to “we Koreans” in the first person is in fact Korean.
By referring to yourself as Korean…
We Koreans seldom transact business without some money changing hands.
Virtual Wanderer, I’m also from NY (as well as Taegu). But fortunately for me, my thought processes are more American than Korean so I’m I’m bi-conceptual without losing my reason. …
This is the reason we follow Eastern medicinal practices that according to Western science have no proven clinical value. …
In “fan death”, for instance, we tend to adopt the position that since it is so widely believed and since there are numerous reports of its occurance, there is little reason the veracity of the assumption that fans cause death. However, until causal evidence can be cited, Westerners remain skeptical. …
The reason that Korea is the least dynamic of nations lies in this tendency to rationalize our habits rather than examine and correct them.
I believe Westerner place more emphasis on investigating causality whereas we Koreans are more apt to settle for correlation. …
If ballpark logic is good enough for us Koreans it is because truth can rarely be separated from ideology here.
And while we’re busy branding Americans and everybody else arrogant, we are merely reading our own insecurities into things - Americans in my experience are a lot less arrogant than we Koreans. We truly have to learn to shut up and put up.
… you have purposely put forth an identity where readers would be led to believe that you grew up with at least some of the trappings of Korean and/or kyopo culture. It is a reasonable assumption that this would inform many of your viewpoints. This is is not intellectual laziness on the part of the reader, but a result of complicated nuances with how things are presented and perceived.
If I tell you of a discussion I had in October 2004 with an American citizen who gave an impassioned plea for why Bush should be re-elected, the meaning or at least theh context of the plea would be different if I told you the speech-giver were a lifelong Democrat and not a lifelong Republican.
Political parties are a voluntary affiliation, unlike ethnicity (for the most part), so let me use an ethnicity-based example to illustrate the same thing. When I was young, a male relative and authority figure brought me and my brother to Manzanar, then little more than a dusty area left to the elements with a stone California State Historic Site marker. My older male relative and authority figure told us, “This is what happens when White people get all paranoid about minorities.”
The context of his words and his choice to bring us there?and therefore the meaning of the context and the choice to bring us there?would be different depending on whether this relative is Japanese-American, a White American, Korean-American, or a mixture of any of the above.
It is disingenuous to deliberately choose to write consistently as “we Koreans,” and then suggest that you make no issue of being Korean. By referring to Koreans in the first person, you are laying claim to a cultural context that non-Koreans cannot. There may be an assumption that something can be learned from your point of view on that basis; but if Marmot is right and you are a “cracker,” then your deceit in claiming to be Korean has shattered the value of much of what you’ve had to say.
Maybe you can pull a Baduk and claim it was all on-line performance art. Maybe your whole idea was to show how people are biased in that they see everything differently depending on the perceived background of the speaker. Fine, but you’ll forgive some of us if we should then view all of your “we Korean” statements, like a Hwang-esque probe, as ones coming from a purveyor of public falsehoods.
As I said before, I know a number of kyopo people in/from the US and Canada who are quite critical of Korean culture, such that I believed your persona to be genuine. If Marmot is correct in that you are not as you presented yourself, that would be a disappointment to me, not so much for the reasons I stated above (even if you are in fact kyopo, I think it is disingenuous to sweepingly refer to “we Koreans” as close-minded in a way that precludes the existence as a Korean of people such as yourself), but simply because you pulled a Hwang.
Talking about the problems of “we Koreans” and “our” dishonesty while lying all along about being a Korean from Taegu is what is rich.
Feel better, Kushibo?
“We Koreans” forgive you.
Feel better, Kushibo?
No.
“We Koreans” forgive you.
Bugger off, Hwangker. I’m done giving you the benefit of the doubt.
“By referring to Koreans in the first person, you are laying claim to a cultural context that non-Koreans cannot. There may be an assumption that something can be learned from your point of view on that basis; but if Marmot is right and you are a “cracker,” then your deceit in claiming to be Korean has shattered the value of much of what you’ve had to say.”
Nonsense. And it’s not the blood that matters but the experience. In ?? in the 1970s I experienced what many of our modern Koreans have not - life in a small country town before tall apartments displaced straw-thatched mud houses with courtyards. I lived through military rule, a coup d’etat, and worked through the 1980s for ?? ??? and ???? before organized labor was even recognized…I dutifully removed my glasses when I visited my traditional home town (??) and turned my away when accepting a drank from elders. When they would offer me a cigarette three times in a row, I would turn them down three times in a row. I returned to my ancestral home every year ????. Now, after all those years of having lived in NYC, here I am agian, employed by a large Korean company in which my daily business is once again conducted in Korean.
The cultural context I am laying claim to is mine, because I understand it from the inside, and mine to critique because I also understand it from the outside. I have never made an issue of this and neither have I stooped to disparage anyone with differing cultural perspectives to offer.
Read me if you like, comment, agree and disagree as suits your fancy. Feel free to challenge,ignore, defame and revile me if you prefer. But in the end, I will have my say, expressing myself as suits me, giving my forthright, satirical and critical analyses of my culture rediscovered.
Just don’t forget to have fun.
“Bugger off, Hwangker. I’m done giving you the benefit of the doubt.”
That’s a good first step. Dependency doesn’t suit you!
The jury may be out on Mizar5, but one things for sure — no one will ever accuse JYCE of being anything other than she is: an angry angry kyopo.
Who still has yet to learn how to employ sarcasm effectively.
Dogbert, I think this whole thing is way cool. I’ve always wanted a mock trial! What say we move it to Australia and make it a kangaroo court?
Read me if you like, comment, agree and disagree as suits your fancy. Feel free to challenge,ignore, defame and revile me if you prefer. But in the end, I will have my say, expressing myself as suits me, giving my forthright, satirical and critical analyses of my culture rediscovered.
Paint it up as pretty as you like, but you’re still a pathetic liar.
Kushido,
In case you missed it, I am reposting I question I asked you earlier about your visit to Ulleungdo.
Did you happen to go up to the mountaintop observation point and try to find Dokdo with your naked eye? I have wondered how easy it is to see, given its distance from Ulleungdo and the weather conditions in the area, which tend to restrict visibility.
Personally, if I had gone all the way to Ulleungdo, I would have definitely checked out the claims that Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo with the naked eye. Also, I think I would have taken a picture of it, given that I would have probably taken a camera along.
It would be nice to get a “moderate, middle-of-the-roader” to confirm that it is clearly visible with the naked eye, instead of relying on what I consider to be Korea-biased reporting on such sites as this.
Oops, I did it, again. It should be “Kushibo,” not “Kushido.”
Doggie, what’s even sadder than your lame attempt at a comeback is how desperately you wanted to believe that Mizarv was real.
You haven’t been winning any bouts lately so it’s no surprise that you’re lashing out.
Gerry, my comment was a friendly jab about a thread from long ago that is now stuck in the limbo of blog.marmot.cc. A throwaway line, not an invitation to re-open that whole topic.
To answer your question, though, I have not yet been to Ull?ngdo, but I would like to go (though not for any reason related to Tokto; from pictures it appears quite striking). I’ve heard there’s a risk in going there that you might get stuck there for a few days due to bad weather.
But one thing is for sure, if you do go there when the weather is not clear and you canNOT see Tokto, that does NOT mean that Tokto is not at all visible from Ull?ngdo. You might contend that the weather around Ull?ngdo is always like that, which would prove your point, but I have in fact seen Ull?ngdo from an airplane, headed for T?ky?, on a crystal clear day, so I know such weather there exists, even if I don’t end up seeing such clear weather when I eventually visit.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
Oops, I did it, again. It should be “Kushibo,” not “Kushido.”
Before you explained it’s just something you do sometimes, I was wondering what was up with that. Kushido is, iirc, a Japanese martial art. I always wondered why you were referring to me as that. Kushibo, on the other hand, is a Japanese fabric.
JYCE wrote:
Doggie, what’s even sadder than your lame attempt at a comeback is how desperately you wanted to believe that Mizarv was real.
You haven’t been winning any bouts lately so it’s no surprise that you’re lashing out.
JYCE, I mean this in the nicest way: resist the urge to gloat.
“you’re still a pathetic liar.”
As opposed to a pathetic accuser. (ba dum dum)
Let’s see…you have my personal denial; no smoking gun involving ISPs or anything exists; and the Marmot had based his “mizperception” solely on a personal exchange with me in which I was as usual trying to be funny.
My advice: when good-natured, civil banter deteriorates into character defamation and name-calling, it’s generally good to reassess if it’s worth the energy you’re putting into it.
Mizar5, your defense is Hwang-like. Marmot’s word carries far more weight than yours or most anybody’s on this list. This is not a court of law; the burden is on you. Right now, based on your responses, my gut instinct is that you have betrayed my trust.
Court of law or not, the burden is certainly not on me to disprove an unsubstantiated allegation.
Your comparing me to Hwang, by the way, is an excellent distraction. I think I’ll check myself into a hospital for fatigue!
That is too bad, Kushibo, I was hoping to get a neutral opinion on whether Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo with the naked eye.
According to this site, Ulleungdo has only about 54 clear days a year, but the site does not say how many of those 54 days are clear enough to see Dokdo, which is 92 kilometers away. By the way, did you happen to see Dokdo on the crystal-clear day you passed over Ulleungdo?
The Korean claim is that since Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo, Koreans would have most certainly known about Dokdo before 1905, which is when Japan officially claimed Dokdo/Takeshima as Japanese territory. Well, let’s consider that claim for a moment.
First of all, there is no Korean map before 1905 that shows Dokdo. Koreans point to what look like coloring-book maps and say that an island on those maps is supposed to be Dokdo, but there are no latitude or longitude lines, no bearings or distances, no name of “Dokdo,” or any other way to know if the maps are referring to Dokdo, to Ulleungdo, or to one of the two small islands around Ulleungdo.
Second, even if Dokdo can be seen with the naked eye from Ulleungdo on a cystal-clear day, that does not mean that any Korean before 1905 saw Dokdo from Ulleungdo. There is no pre-1905 record of Koreans seeing Dokdo from Ulleungdo. On the contrary, there is a 1882 record saying that a Korean official climbed to the top of the hightest peak on Ulleungdo on a clear day and could not see any surrounding islands.
Third, even if Dokdo can be seen from Ulleungdo, one would have to climb up one of the mountains on the island to see it since it is impossible to see 92 kilometers away at sea level.
Fourth, before 1905, there were probably only a hand-full of Koreans living on Ulleungdo at any one time since Korea’s “vacant-island” policy kept Koreans away from Ulleungdo much of the time before 1905. So even if Dokdo could be seen from Ulleungdo, there is the question of how many of those hand-full of Koreans visiting the island had the time, the energy, and the desire to climb up to the top of one of Ulleungdo’s mountains on a crystal-clear day and look for a small island on the horizon?
I have only seen two pictures showing Dokdo from Ulleungdo. One of those obviously used a zoom-len to take the picture, but I am not sure about the other. It seems strange that I have only found two such pictures on the Internet, considering that there are now about 10,000 people living on Ulleungdo, not to mention all the tourists who regularly visit. There is a sign on one of the mountaintop observation points that points in the direction of Dokdo, so I wonder why there are not more Internet pictures taken of the islets from Ulleungdo?
I wish I could afford to camp out on top of one of Ulleungdo’s mountains for a year or so, in the hope of catching a glimpse of Dokdo from Ulleungdo. Maybe then my mind could finally be at ease.
JYCE has nothing to gloat about.
Them grapes sour enough for you Doggie?