You increased our cultural literacy by contributing Malcom X’s memorable phrase “house nigger” while I came up with the side splitting “stop beating a dead herring.”

To which I am inclined to add the unforgivable description of your technique of spawning one red herring after another as I egg you on for my voyeuristic delight:

“there is nothing so delicious as a pregnant red herring.”

Perhaps its time for you to leave analysis of the English language to native speakers? Describing someone as a ‘house nigger’ in the context that they are an ethnic minority is perfectly reasonable. As Kushibo points out, even calling a white guy in Korea that displays certain behaviors might be called ‘uncle toms’, despite this label being applied almost exclusively to black males supporting the establishment (Recently ‘Asian American Activists’ have also started using ‘uncle tom’ to describe Asian Americans they dont like).

Mizar5 quotes silly sally -
Your appropriation(theft)of their language, is experienced as robbery of identity and self-esteem

I have never really experienced this from native Koreans. Kyopo on the otherhand seem to get pissed of by it, perhaps because their identity as ‘Koreans’ is wrapped up in language ability, and a white guy that not only speaks Korean better than them but speaks English better as well makes them feel that something has been taken from them. I want to point out that this is not all kyopo (I only point it out to negate the inevitable claim that I am saying all kyopo are the same), but there are plenty like that. The ones that are not are well adjusted and secure. A couple of months ago a kyopo woman went absolutely nuts at me at a business function because I was speaking with some Koreans in Korean. In the end, the people from her company apologised to me, while she went off sulking. It turns out that she can neither read or write Korean despite trying to learn, and my comment to the effect that I learned hangul in a week set her off.

Anyway, there is some truth to the idea that foreigners that go along to get along with Koreans are ‘house niggers’. If you agree with Koreans about everything then you can along with them, but if you doubt patently ludicrous Korean claims out loud (Korea 5000 years old, Tae-Kwon-Do ancient martial art, etc)then you will damage fragile Korean self esteem and cause their ‘kibun’ to go bad, poisoning the relationship. Therefore, foreigners walk on eggshells in their relationships with Koreans, inevitably an unequal relationship because the foreigner is constantly having to be careful of not giving offense, while Koreans dont care about giving offense to foreigners.

I’ll readily admit that there’s only one thing more unseemly than someone thick-headed like JYCE who just can’t seem to admit when he’s wrong long after being corrected. And that’s a perverse clown like getting a kick out of goading him. But it’s just good fun - you know firsthand how much I savor mock battle.

Kushibo, let me know when you go back to your old neighborhood of Compton, and I’ll tell you about the last time I went back to mine - Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, NY.

JYCE, even before Mizar5 quoted “Silly Sally” to provide context for the “house nigger” concept, I was going to say that I think it plausible for a non-Korean to refer to two Whites in Korea as “house niggers” if he or she is rhetorically speaking from the point of view of how a typical Korean might see things.

If I had cojones the size of beach balls, I could go back to my old neighborhood of Compton and refer to some of my erstwhile neighbors as “Uncle Tom,” even though I am not Black. I’d get my ass kicked several times over, but not for semantic misuse of the term.

Mizar5, I agree with you that when all is said and done, the race of the speaker should not matter (and I say that as an Italian-Sephardic Jewish-Korean/Japanese-Sioux-Scandinavian-Iberian-Mongolian-Ethiopian who speaks with an Irish brogue), but you are being disingenuous by claiming that but all the while speaking with the authority of voice of “we Koreans.” If that is part of the “satire,” fine, but you haven’t made that entirely clear.

Anyway, it seems to me that right now neither of you is offering anything new, so I humbly request that this internecine squabbling be put to rest. Shelton has just posted something new, so there’s fresh meat to be had.

Posted on the Marmot by Silly Sally at June 5, 2004 11:27 AM:

“Koreans establish a sense of superior self-identity by race, language, and culture; they maintain this exhalted self-identity by radically distinguishing themselves from the “Other”. Expatriate’s most precious function in Korea, therefore, is to promote Korean self-esteem by creating a black and white distinction…Your appropriation(theft)of their language, is experienced as robbery of identity and self-esteem: hence,a sense of burdensome shame and feelings of hostility that must be artfully disquised from you by resentful Koreans. You are best off doing the Robert Holley method: be a perpetual buffoon. Observe the successful foreign TV personalities on Korean television for tips. Koreans will continue to see you as “useful” for self-esteem maintenance. When you show off your talents in Korea, you are experienced as an uppity-house nigger who needs to be sent back out into the fields. Why? Because you no longer function properly for Koreans.”

If anything I should be the one apologizing to Marmot for making this thread into a lengthy and digresive personal attack, but surely I can’t be the only one bored with the “we koreans” sanctimoniousness. As you’ve said yourself the race of the commenter shouldn’t be important, so why make such a constant issue of it yourself?

I’m satisfied that I’ve made a good case for why you aren’t who you say you are. If we’re going to debate the semiotics of “house nigger,” I think a quick google search will show that it does seem to be used primarily as a disparagement by african-americans against other african americans for someone perceived as a traitor to his ethnicity. I have found here an instance where a person of Desi (South Asian) descent uses it to disparage another person of Desi descent. Certainly, there are other similar words in colloquial usage, “brown sahib,” “uncle tom,” “sellout,” etc., but in all cases such expressions are used against others of the same ethinicity, not against outsiders sucking up to your own. Since you’ve used such expressions to describe Marmot et al, and Marmot et al are white, that would make you, most likely, white.

To reiterate, I’m satisfied that the claims I’ve made are reasonably persuasive. I’m also satisfied that all the strenuous verbal cartwheels you’ve made in defense of “house nigger” as “not racial,” and as a high concept social commentary are corrrespondingly unpersuasive. Again, if you are so confident about how you will be interpreted, please make such arguments in person to the African American community here in Seoul.

I’ve got to go to the gym, so, taa-taa for now.

Now to dispatch with the sluggard for good:

JYCE, I find your comments about the US army personnel sterotypical and bigoted. I have friends in the military and many close friendships with black people and, frankly, your fear pathetic. People ” get” concepts like these and are intelligent enough to discuss these subjects with me. The concepts are not too “sophisticated and subtle” for them, as you suggest and do not suffer from the same “low levels of cultural literacy” that you demonstrate.

You also ask “since you’ve objected to bringing up the race of the commenter, one wonders why you would constantly insist on using “We Koreans.” Sigh, you still don’t get it, do you?