The U.S.-edition of the JoongAng Ilbo (Korean), quoting a U.S. State Department official, is reporting that from next year, Koreans would likely be allowed to visit the United States for up to 90 days without a visa. The paper said bilateral discussions to extend the U.S. visa waiver program to Korea had entered their final stage.
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37 Comments
Amazing. How will they keep track of these ‘tourists’?
So will this triple the number of Asian massage parlors in the US, or will it triple the amount of money the Korean-American pimps get?
Is a visa waver a guy who stands outsside the US Embassy waving his visa in the air after lining up for 6 hours?
Or did you mean visa waiver?
My bad, Pedro.
Just think of all the new, anti-American American citizens we’re going to get out of the visa waiver program! Awesome. Now they won’t be limited to just the landed classes of Korean elites.
Brendon, that’d be awesome! It’ll become just like San Francisco, then. With the added bonus of anti-American American citizens who, in all likelihood, won’t be able to speak English.
I’m thrilled.
Why would we get any additional citizens, anti-American or otherwise, out of the visa waiver program? The program is designed for 90 days of business or tourism and anything beyond that requires a resident visa which will still be difficult to obtain. Anyone violating the 90 stay agreement could and should be deported and banned from further entry. Why make this about anti-Americanism?
Joel asked:
Why would we get any additional citizens, anti-American or otherwise, out of the visa waiver program? The program is designed for 90 days of business or tourism and anything beyond that requires a resident visa which will still be difficult to obtain. Anyone violating the 90 stay agreement could and should be deported and banned from further entry. Why make this about anti-Americanism?
Joel, you must not have gotten the echo chamber memo: Koreans = law-breaking opportunists. Ergo, as soon as Korean nationals get visa-free entry, pregnant Koreans will flock en masse to Hawaii or Guam or Saipan to have their babies on U.S. soil so their kids automatically get U.S. citizenship. I haven’t figured out the “anti-American” part, though.
I missed that memo. Maybe my name has been removed from the echo chamber newsletter mailing list. I am going to have to check into that. But for the sake of defending our new stance on Koreans as law-breaking opportunists, how would you suggest I counter the argument that those who could afford to fly to America to have their baby on American soil are most likely those who could have gotten a visa before the waiver came into effect with no trouble anyway? It seems like sufficient funds and a stable tax and credit history have always been the major factors in deciding who gets a visa.
I missed that memo. Maybe my name has been removed from the echo chamber newsletter mailing list. I am going to have to check into that.
No need to worry. The memos’ contents usually show up as talking points eventually.
But for the sake of defending our new stance on Koreans as law-breaking opportunists, how would you suggest I counter the argument that those who could afford to fly to America to have their baby on American soil are most likely those who could have gotten a visa before the waiver came into effect with no trouble anyway?
The same way you would counter that US territories like Guam and the Northern Marianas already have had visa-free entry for ROK nationals, yet there hasn’t been a flood of Koreans rushing there to have babies.
It seems like sufficient funds and a stable tax and credit history have always been the major factors in deciding who gets a visa.
Joel, you’re thinking too far outside the box. Next you’ll be spouting arguments like those of Hawaii and various western states that the visa-free entry would significantly enhance their tourism revenues, thus offsetting any real or imagined cost to their infrastructure from anti-American Americans who end up living there, as well as the added cost Australians insist the U.S. spend to specifically keep track of Korean tourists.
Visa waiver will do nothing for the US. We Koreans will simply take advantage of America and not reciprocate or respectfully acknowlege in return, as is our way. Americans do not yet know the 3 cardinal rules of Korean culture that impact the so-called alliance: racism, socialism and inequality.
1- Racism — We Koreans care only about our own race. We use “friendship” with non-Koreans only duplicitously to get something without reciprocating, and then turn around and curse you behind your backs. We’d rather stand in solidarity in Communism with our own race than stand in mutual partnership with non-Koreans who we privately refer to as subhumans (? rather than ??).
2- Socialism — You cannot expect us to be grateful to the US for sheding blood to deliver us from Communism, and providing the funds, technology and markets to become Capitalist - because we are by virtue of our very culture socialist. We believe it is a crime for wealthy people to amass personal wealth and do not understand that wealth can be come by honestly. If you have wealth and prestige we will curse you.
2- Inequality — We do not share the Western concept of human equality and peers. People are either superiors or inferiors, and as Koreans, we alternately see ourselves in both of these positions. First, we want must be superior to non-Koreans, to surpass and be the envy of the world. Second, we see ourselves as victims and imagine racism and slights where none in fact exists. We always believe the rest of the world looks down on us and wants to prevent our unification. This is nonsense of course - people other than Koreans simply see others as peers - but there is no analogous concept among our race, so we will continue to suffer from the three Korean mental evils - inferiority complex, victim complex and national arrogance.
Visa waiver will accomplish nothing for the US. First, your good will will neither be honored nor even acknowledged. We will merely congratulate ourselves for achieving a diplomatic coup over Big Nose who submitted to our will out of fear and greed.
If you have hopes of improving our friendship and relationship it will not pay off. Remember, you are not Korean and will never be respected by us. There is not a country in the world in which people say “I really like Koreans, they’re so cool.” They simply see us as isolated and different - because, frankly, we are.
If the visa-waiver plan goes through, it looks like strawmen will be heading for the United States in droves.
Does anybody actually believe Mizar5 is who he say he is?
Does anybody actually believe Mizar5 is who he say he is?
No.
I may be na?ve, but I think Mizar5 may be legitimate. I know several American-born kyopo who frequently rail against what they perceive as failings of “typical Koreans.” There are many Koreans who are exactly as Mizar5 describes above. Exactly. And a few of these friends who happen to be kyopo will happily say so. In fact, some such kyopo will feel a vested interest in pointing out these failings.
The only problem with what Mizar5 wrote above is that his generalization is so sweeping that it precludes the possibility of independent Korean thinkers like himself. Essentially he set up a strawman where he himself is a glaring example to the contrary. As are the other people I know who are like him.
Kushibo is right, I know a Mizar5 or two, not quite with the scorched-earth attacks on Koreans that he expresses, but sometimes extremely critical, thus self-critical. This whole Hwang fiasco has led a lot of people to come down hard on Korean society, which of course has its flaws, but could have (and has) happened anywhere. There might be some “Korean” characteristics to it, and Mizar5 touches on them with the above, just in a bit too reductive and all-encompassing way as Kushibo said.
What Mizar5 posted is not significantly different from what Won-bok Rhie himself posits about his fellow Koreans. I guess the truth hurts, so there’s some lashing out here.
Mizar5 has referred to Marmot and Oranckay as “house niggers.” The only way I can think of that can possibly make sense is if Mizar5 was white too.
Kushibo: “The only problem with what Mizar5 wrote above is that his generalization is so sweeping…”
Kushibo basically gets me. I have no problem with your analysis of me, Kushibo, with one minor correction - sweeping generalization is not the “problem” but in fact the point itself.
Mizar5 is a thought-provoker, a satirist, and satire by definintion is generalization - focusing on general social trends and tendencies rather than people. It’s not cool to pidgeonholing individuals, whether they be kyopo, American or Korean.Therefore, if you question what Mizar is or whether he is who he says he is, you don’t get him at all.
Um JYCE, regarding the term “house nigger” you missed the point of an extraordinarily simple satire then and you obviously still don’t get it. Otherwise you would understand that the term cannot possibly make sense coming from someone who is white.
But let me spell this out for you, and I promise to keep it to a 5th grade reading level. The point is not race, period. And if you need to know someone’s race to judge his comments, you are a ball in tall weeds.
PS, JYCE, if you are unfamiliar with the concept behind the term “house nigger”, let me clarify that it’s not a term I “called” anyone, nor one with racial tones. It describes an experience shared by non-Koreans who have lived in the culture a long time. Many here have related the experience of conducting themselves in accordance with the cultural norms of the hosts only to be reminded they are still not fully accepted as equals. This is the “house nigger” experience.
No need to worry. The memos’ contents usually show up as talking points eventually.
This of course would require that I open the comments section. That’s more than I can handle some days. It’s no wonder I’ve been left out of the loop.
The same way you would counter that US territories like Guam and the Northern Marianas already have had visa-free entry for ROK nationals, yet there hasn’t been a flood of Koreans rushing there to have babies.
Perhaps you’ve misunderstood me. Or perhaps I misunderstood the memo. I thought we were trying to portray Koreans as law-breaking opportunists? You’ve only given me additional ammunition to disprove our new law-breaking opportunist theory.
Joel, you’re thinking too far outside the box. Next you’ll be spouting arguments like those of Hawaii and various western states that the visa-free entry would significantly enhance their tourism revenues, thus offsetting any real or imagined cost to their infrastructure from anti-American Americans who end up living there, as well as the added cost Australians insist the U.S. spend to specifically keep track of Korean tourists.
Oh, what a retched thought. First I am left out of the echo-chamber newsletter, then I start thinking out of the box, and soon I might start spouting that which sounds like logical arguments based on tourism trends and economic principles! I am in grave danger. What can I do to get back in the box? Perhaps I need to go specifically to the ask Kushibo section for help on a problem this serious.
I would bet my 2 cents that visa waiver program would not happen. It wasnt the first time that this kind of speculation came out but never came true (as long as I remember, the speculation started as early as in late 90s). Furthermore, it was harder to believe this article because the original source was from Los Angeles branch of Joongang ilbo. Korean newspapers from the various U.S. branches are more like tabloids.
Anyway, the truth is that it becomes harder and harder for Koreans to get visa than ever before. For example, when my parents applied to their last tourist visas, they didnt need to do interviews, but this time around, they need to go through interview process. I am not happy about the fact that my 60 something y.o. folks, whose sole reason for their visit to the U.S. is to meet their new son-in-law, have to take a trip to Seoul (they live in Busan) and to wait for hours before the U.S. Embassy for the interviews. But if this were the only legitimate way they could get visas, they would love to do it.
Although I wish the article would be true, I have to say that its too early for me to buy it.
Again, anybody believe Mizar5 is making sophisticated social commentary via his use of the expression “house nigger?”
“Again, anybody believe Mizar5 is making sophisticated social commentary via his use of the expression “house nigger?”"
What do you mean “again”? Stop beating a dead red herring.
Miz, please go to the US army base or any bar in Itaewon, and freely use the expression “house nigger.” Do it tonight. While they are happily beating the shit out of you, please explain to them that they’ve “missed the point of an extraordinarily simple satire,” and “obviously still don’t get it.” Also explain to them that “house nigger” does not have any racial overtones and has been simply misconstrued due to their unfamiliarity with the sophisticated and subtle concepts involved therein, and their low levels of cultural literacy. I’m sure they’re reasonable people and will understand eventually.
Also, since you’ve objected to bringing up the race of the commenter, one wonders why you would constantly insist on using “We Koreans.”
“Although I wish the article would be true, I have to say that its too early for me to buy it.”
Me too. It’s not going to happen. Whatever that comes out of Washington, it’s more to do with embarassed reactions against Korean pressures. What I would rather like to see is Koreans just stay home, spend the money in Korea and help Korea. Lining up outside the US embassy waiting for hours, begging like puppies to have the honour of footing their steps in America.. it’s not cool. NOt only that, it gives out the impression if they’re this desperate to go to the US, they must have ulterior motives - so it’s one more reason why it’s not a good ideal to give out a visa waiver.
“one wonders why you would constantly insist on using “We Koreans.”"
You can also keep me out of that group.
Mizar5 rocks.
Thanks, Mark, An aside to the Marmot… sorry to have become a distraction for folks who are just too thick to get the point.
Now to dispatch with the sluggard for good:
JYCE, I find your comments about the US army personnel sterotypical and bigoted. I have friends in the military and many close friendships with black people and, frankly, your fear pathetic. People ” get” concepts like these and are intelligent enough to discuss these subjects with me. The concepts are not too “sophisticated and subtle” for them, as you suggest and do not suffer from the same “low levels of cultural literacy” that you demonstrate.
You also ask “since you’ve objected to bringing up the race of the commenter, one wonders why you would constantly insist on using “We Koreans.” Sigh, you still don’t get it, do you?
Um … Miz Thing … Marmot has already said he doesn’t believe you, though I can’t be sure how facetious Mark is being.
If anything I should be the one apologizing to Marmot for making this thread into a lengthy and digresive personal attack, but surely I can’t be the only one bored with the “we koreans” sanctimoniousness. As you’ve said yourself the race of the commenter shouldn’t be important, so why make such a constant issue of it yourself?
I’m satisfied that I’ve made a good case for why you aren’t who you say you are. If we’re going to debate the semiotics of “house nigger,” I think a quick google search will show that it does seem to be used primarily as a disparagement by african-americans against other african americans for someone perceived as a traitor to his ethnicity. I have found here an instance where a person of Desi (South Asian) descent uses it to disparage another person of Desi descent. Certainly, there are other similar words in colloquial usage, “brown sahib,” “uncle tom,” “sellout,” etc., but in all cases such expressions are used against others of the same ethinicity, not against outsiders sucking up to your own. Since you’ve used such expressions to describe Marmot et al, and Marmot et al are white, that would make you, most likely, white.
To reiterate, I’m satisfied that the claims I’ve made are reasonably persuasive. I’m also satisfied that all the strenuous verbal cartwheels you’ve made in defense of “house nigger” as “not racial,” and as a high concept social commentary are corrrespondingly unpersuasive. Again, if you are so confident about how you will be interpreted, please make such arguments in person to the African American community here in Seoul.
I’ve got to go to the gym, so, taa-taa for now.
Sorry, JYCE. It’s painful to watch you falling to pieces over nothing. So by all means, go to the gym and, as I said, “stop beating a dead herring!”
Being compassionate, I will provide some instruction in hopes you correct your tendency to fly off the handle over mere words, phrases and characters online.
Posted on the Marmot by Silly Sally at June 5, 2004 11:27 AM:
“Koreans establish a sense of superior self-identity by race, language, and culture; they maintain this exhalted self-identity by radically distinguishing themselves from the “Other”. Expatriate’s most precious function in Korea, therefore, is to promote Korean self-esteem by creating a black and white distinction…Your appropriation(theft)of their language, is experienced as robbery of identity and self-esteem: hence,a sense of burdensome shame and feelings of hostility that must be artfully disquised from you by resentful Koreans. You are best off doing the Robert Holley method: be a perpetual buffoon. Observe the successful foreign TV personalities on Korean television for tips. Koreans will continue to see you as “useful” for self-esteem maintenance. When you show off your talents in Korea, you are experienced as an uppity-house nigger who needs to be sent back out into the fields. Why? Because you no longer function properly for Koreans.”
An interesting and pertinent discussion about visa waivers has been hijacked by the feuding between Mizar5 and JYCE. I certainly have no right to tell them to stop, but I will tell them I think they have reached an impasse.
JYCE, even before Mizar5 quoted “Silly Sally” to provide context for the “house nigger” concept, I was going to say that I think it plausible for a non-Korean to refer to two Whites in Korea as “house niggers” if he or she is rhetorically speaking from the point of view of how a typical Korean might see things.
If I had cojones the size of beach balls, I could go back to my old neighborhood of Compton and refer to some of my erstwhile neighbors as “Uncle Tom,” even though I am not Black. I’d get my ass kicked several times over, but not for semantic misuse of the term.
Mizar5, I agree with you that when all is said and done, the race of the speaker should not matter (and I say that as an Italian-Sephardic Jewish-Korean/Japanese-Sioux-Scandinavian-Iberian-Mongolian-Ethiopian who speaks with an Irish brogue), but you are being disingenuous by claiming that but all the while speaking with the authority of voice of “we Koreans.” If that is part of the “satire,” fine, but you haven’t made that entirely clear.
Anyway, it seems to me that right now neither of you is offering anything new, so I humbly request that this internecine squabbling be put to rest. Shelton has just posted something new, so there’s fresh meat to be had.
Ok got it, Kushibo, and this concludes my comments on the subject. I was rather enjoying the impasse, though.
I’ll readily admit that there’s only one thing more unseemly than someone thick-headed like JYCE who just can’t seem to admit when he’s wrong long after being corrected. And that’s a perverse clown like getting a kick out of goading him. But it’s just good fun - you know firsthand how much I savor mock battle.
Kushibo, let me know when you go back to your old neighborhood of Compton, and I’ll tell you about the last time I went back to mine - Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, NY.
JYCE,
Perhaps its time for you to leave analysis of the English language to native speakers? Describing someone as a ‘house nigger’ in the context that they are an ethnic minority is perfectly reasonable. As Kushibo points out, even calling a white guy in Korea that displays certain behaviors might be called ‘uncle toms’, despite this label being applied almost exclusively to black males supporting the establishment (Recently ‘Asian American Activists’ have also started using ‘uncle tom’ to describe Asian Americans they dont like).
Mizar5 quotes silly sally -
Your appropriation(theft)of their language, is experienced as robbery of identity and self-esteem
I have never really experienced this from native Koreans. Kyopo on the otherhand seem to get pissed of by it, perhaps because their identity as ‘Koreans’ is wrapped up in language ability, and a white guy that not only speaks Korean better than them but speaks English better as well makes them feel that something has been taken from them. I want to point out that this is not all kyopo (I only point it out to negate the inevitable claim that I am saying all kyopo are the same), but there are plenty like that. The ones that are not are well adjusted and secure. A couple of months ago a kyopo woman went absolutely nuts at me at a business function because I was speaking with some Koreans in Korean. In the end, the people from her company apologised to me, while she went off sulking. It turns out that she can neither read or write Korean despite trying to learn, and my comment to the effect that I learned hangul in a week set her off.
Anyway, there is some truth to the idea that foreigners that go along to get along with Koreans are ‘house niggers’. If you agree with Koreans about everything then you can along with them, but if you doubt patently ludicrous Korean claims out loud (Korea 5000 years old, Tae-Kwon-Do ancient martial art, etc)then you will damage fragile Korean self esteem and cause their ‘kibun’ to go bad, poisoning the relationship. Therefore, foreigners walk on eggshells in their relationships with Koreans, inevitably an unequal relationship because the foreigner is constantly having to be careful of not giving offense, while Koreans dont care about giving offense to foreigners.
Again, I couldn’t be more satisfied with the way Mizar5 has conducted himself in this thread, and am even amused with Chewie’s speculation as to my first language.
Thank you, JYCE, the admiration is mutual. And to think, Kushibo had doubts that we were contributing something new.
You increased our cultural literacy by contributing Malcom X’s memorable phrase “house nigger” while I came up with the side splitting “stop beating a dead herring.”
To which I am inclined to add the unforgivable description of your technique of spawning one red herring after another as I egg you on for my voyeuristic delight:
“there is nothing so delicious as a pregnant red herring.”