The film Blue Swallow, which tells the tale of pioneering female aviator Park Kyong-won, is apparently facing difficulties ahead of its Dec. 29 opening, reports the Korea Times. The reason? The heroine, played by the super-cute Jang Jin-young, was apparently a big, dirty chinil-pa (pro-Japanese). The trailblazer, Korea’s first-ever female civilian pilot, was killed when her plane smacked into a mountainside as she was flying from Japan to Korea and Manchuria to encourage locals to join the Japanese war effort in China. Korean bloggers have been quick to turn up the goods, including this lovely photo (click for full-size image):
Adorable. Pic taken from this less-than-subtle blog post.
Making matters worse, she was rumored to be romantically involved with then-Posts and Telecommuncations Minister Matajiro Koizumi, the grandfather of current Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.
Through a press release Wednesday, Korea Pictures denied rumors that Japanese money was used to make the now controversial film.
Twitch reports on Blue Swallow’s press screening (reviews have been overwhelmingly positive, it would seem) and discusses some of the accusations directed at the movie.
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146 Comments
Wow, I don’t see why her political views need to be used against making her story known better. She was the first every female Korean pilot, respect her for that. Who cares if she was a “Jap Lover”, she was a TRUE national hero.
I never really understood attacking people for supporting Japanese 60 years ago, it’s called staying alive. You support them, or you get killed. Pretty simple. Hasn’t anyone ever heard the concept, “live to fight another day”? Sending yourself to the slaughter alone does no good, wait it out until you can raise up enough strength and more numbers to do something about it.
She looks like the vixen who seduces the wife of Emperor Pu Yi in The Last Emperor.
Darin:
To assist your understanding, some Koreans who chose to stay alive by supporting the Japanese ended up as guards and torturers in Japanese POW camps, including the camps in Thailand that formed the basis for Bridge Over the River Kwai and Chang Mai in Singapore and the even more infamous medical experimentation stations in China. I don;t know to what extent the Blue Swallow was culpable, but if you don’t think such people are deserving of criticism, you need to go back to the shop and have your compass adjusted.
She was a pilot, not the captain of a death camp or the like. Furthermore, she was a female (obviously) pilot at a place and time that was not renowned for its gender equality. First or not, it’s a really interesting story that is well worth telling.
Unfortunately, the movie BLUE SWALLOW does not tell that story. There is nothing about how Park became a pilot. Instead, it is all soap opera. Very disappointing.
Much like THE PRESIDENT’S LAST BANG, Korean journalists and movie critics have shown themselves remarkably poor at judging movies on their own terms, and instead get mired in endless political debates. Which is even more disappointing than a mediocre movie.
Had she have been torturing people, then there would be a problem. Instead, she went to Japan to learn how to fly, something that was not possible in her country. I see no problem with that.
What I do see a problem with is the attempt by seemingly many to nullify her accomplishments due to her political beliefs. That would be the same as saying that the contributions the Roman Empire made to the whole of Europe are meaningless because it was achieved with military force. They are separate issues in my opinion. One can look on both the good and the bad of the Roman Empire, one can also look on Park Kyong-won and say she was a pioneer, and a supported of Japan. Her support for Japan does not change that she was a pioneer, and her being a pioneer also does not change her being a supporter of Japan.
After me being corrected by Haisan, we can know that the first half of the Korean movie Old Boy is taken from a Japanese comic. Does that mean that the movie Old Boy is also pro-Japanese? No, of course not. The movie is the movie, and the comic is the comic. Her flying a plane is her flying a plane, and her supporting Japan is her supporting Japan. Two separate issues that make up Park Kyong-won as a whole, but can not be confused.
Darin:
I happen to agree with your taking the usual Korean suspects to task for their inability to see anything except in the light of collaboration with/resistance to Japan. And, as I said, I don’t know enough about Ms. Blujay to say much of anything about it - although I suspect that her accomplishments in becoming an aviator far outweigh any blame that may attach becuase of her “collaboration.” I was commenting on the gneralizations of your second paragraph, which are thoughtless, at best.
“I never really understood attacking people for supporting Japanese 60 years ago, it’s called staying alive. You support them, or you get killed. Pretty simple. Hasn’t anyone ever heard the concept, “live to fight another day”? Sending yourself to the slaughter alone does no good, wait it out until you can raise up enough strength and more numbers to do something about it.” That part?
Yea, it’s fine to say (in regards to people that did become tortures for example) “if you don’t think such people are deserving of criticism, you need to go back to the shop and have your compass adjusted.”, however the article link makes no mention to her in particular becoming a guard. One could argue that she recruited people who later became guards, and that’s probably very likely, but there seems to be no physical evidence to show that as of right now.
I’m guessing your making mention to the “anyone” in “Hasn’t anyone ever heard the concept” correct? I didn’t mean for that to be applied to every single Korean ever, just all the people in the Korean blog-world that are making a stink about the movie.
It makes sense why and how as a woman, she could have been able to fly around planes, and not suck up to Japan’s military rule. Her other choices would have been servicing Japanese troops in the battle fields of China, or eeking out a peasant half starved living in rural Korea, or living a refugee life of the Korean provisional government in Shanghai.
It’s wrong to lump those people who tried to get ahead personally which was to compromise their country versus those who actively and enthusiastically worked for the Empire of Japan.
The question about her should be, which group did she belong to.
Well this explains a hell of a lot to me. When the movie was first described to me, I wondered about about the issue of the Japanese at the time. There was no way she was going to do something like without the cooperation of local authorities (who happened to be Japanese at the time).
Despite the fact it raises more doubts in my mind on the occupation. I must say I do not see anybody favoring say, biopics of the great Nazi Women, the Heroines of the Soviet Union under Stalin, or the first Klanswomen. The movie company made a grave mistake and gets what ever it has coming to them.
“It’s wrong to lump those people who tried to get ahead personally which was to compromise their country versus those who actively and enthusiastically worked for the Empire of Japan.
The question about her should be, which group did she belong to.”
All very well founded statements. But this is a movie! People are throwing a fit over a movie! No one will ever be able to decide for themselves which group she belongs to because overly patriotic, blind with patriotism, netizens are having a ‘canipshit’ attack because she is associated with Japan. I personally have never heard of this woman until now, and the further these overly patriotic people push, the less the world will know about her. If anything, this is destroying the freedom of speech by attempts to block this movie. Although it’s not as though Korea has done much to improve that in recent times anyways. (Passing laws that make it illegal to be friends of Japanese; Passing laws that make it legal to seize their properties and future generations properties; passing laws that control what percentage of movies must be domestic in a theater; passing laws that ban all Japanese books, movies, comics, music, culture in the country.)
Before long I fear that it will come to the point where those trying to punish the criminals will become more heinous criminals then those they called criminals in the fist place. As of right now, these extremely patriotic people are identical to the Nazis. They blame all their problems on the Jews/Japanese and take zero responsibility for any of their own actions. Who’s the real evil here?
Yes, that’s right, I’m comparing modern day South Korea to Nazi Germany. A major difference between Japan and Korea’s overly patriotic people is that in Japan they are called ‘right-wing’, in Korea they are the norm. As long as Japan has a right-wing, that means the freaks aren’t in charge. Sadly, Korea has no right-wing.
Kimbob> Your post reminds me a nagging question in my mind. Does anybody remember the story of the Korean Marathoner who won a medal at the ‘32 (?) Olympics? I always wondered how he attracted the eye of a recruiter, got training, and the participated all the while being oppressed by the Japanese.
You know, Kimbob, not all pilots in Japan at the time had anything to do with military. She could be an acrobat or a mail-carrier, a pilot for news agency, or maybe an adventurer as she appeared to be dreaming of. If she had any political motivations, it wasn’t for Japan/Korea but for Woman’s Liberty.
Japan Flight School was an only private flight school at the time in Asia. Aiba Tamotsu, the founder and the princpal of Japan Flight School, was a 21years-old journalist for Flight/Airplane magazine “Hikou-Kai”, before he opened his school in Haneda in 1916. Most of the initial students weren’t militarymen like Kataoka (the founder of the second private flight school), Tsuburaya (Godzilla/Ultraman fame) and Ueno (the first Japanese female pilot).
Aiba wrote after her death. “Ms. Pak Kyong-won was absolutely falling love with……, well, an airplane. She was always looking at sky. I’m sure Ms. Pak was adored by many male students for her easy-going attitude with her healthy beauty, but she turned down every boys comes to her. Hontou, Kumoi, Lee, Kitamura, Shouda…., there were many female pilots in our school at the time, but in a while, most of them had eventually married and gone. Because of this, Ms. Pak still shines above us.”
Kimbob wrote:
It makes sense why and how as a woman, she could have been able to fly around planes, and not suck up to Japan’s military rule.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but if you are suggesting she could have pursued being a pilot and NOT have gone along, to some degree, with the aims of the Japanese authorities, I’m guessing you’re probably wrong.
Her other choices would have been servicing Japanese troops in the battle fields of China, or eeking out a peasant half starved living in rural Korea, or living a refugee life of the Korean provisional government in Shanghai.
OR… she could have been a teacher, a nurse, a housewife, a shopowner, etc., etc. It was not as if there were only choices of sex slave (which was not really a choice, per se), freedom fighter, or imperial toady.
It’s wrong to lump those people who tried to get ahead personally which was to compromise their country versus those who actively and enthusiastically worked for the Empire of Japan.
I agree with you there. People such as her at that time had lived most or all of their lives as Japanese nationals. The likelihood of Korea being liberated was near nil as far as most people knew, and there were a lot of people who thought that building up Korean skills, knowledge base, civil society, etc., to a level comparable with Japan would be the best way to finally wrest control of the country back. Some advocates of that approach did support Japanese government efforts to a large degree, even the military.
The question about her should be, which group did she belong to.
I think the recruitment efforts are problematic, but does that make her any more culpable for Imperial Japanese atrocities than, say, Britney Spears (”Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.”) is responsible for Abu Graib?
You know, Kimbob, not all pilots in Japan at the time had anything to do with military. She could be an acrobat or a mail-carrier, a pilot for news agency, or maybe an adventurer as she appeared to be dreaming of. If she had any political motivations, it wasn’t for Japan/Korea but for Woman’s Liberty.
Japan Flight School was an only private flight school at the time in Asia. Aiba Tamotsu, the founder and the princpal of Japan Flight School, was a 21years-old journalist for Flight/Airplane magazine “Hikou-Kai”, before he opened his school in Haneda in 1916. Most of the initial students weren’t militarymen like Kataoka (the founder of the second private flight school), Tsuburaya (Godzilla/Ultraman fame) and Ueno (the first Japanese female pilot).
Aiba wrote after her death. “Ms. Pak Kyong-won was absolutely falling love with……, well, an airplane. She was always looking at sky. I’m sure Ms. Pak was adored by many male students for her easy-going attitude with her healthy beauty, but she turned down every boys comes to her. Hontou, Kumoi, Lee, Kitamura, Shouda…., there were many female pilots in our school at the time, but in a while, most of them had eventually married and gone. Because of this, Ms. Pak still shines above us.”
“Passing laws that make it illegal to be friends of Japanese”
That’s news to me. I’ve been friends with Japanese, no Koreans have tried to arrest me.
“Passing laws that make it legal to seize their properties and future generations properties;”
That’s news to me as well. My grandparents had their properties seized by a Korean who was a chin il pa. Is that mean I can get my land back, what is rightfully mine?
“passing laws that control what percentage of movies must be domestic in a theater;”
Korea is not the only country that does this. France does it too. As well as Canada with the music recording industry. Are they all Nazis?
“passing laws that ban all Japanese books, movies, comics, music, culture in the country.”
If you’re not aware, that law has been repealed few years ago.
“OR… she could have been a teacher, a nurse, a housewife, a shopowner, etc.,”
A housewife, yes, but not teacher or nurse. Teachers would have had to teach and follow Japanese designed curiculum - which could potentially make the teachers in the Japanese colonial era as chin-il-pa. The point was that to get a good life, you had to sell out your soul and join the red party oops I mean the Japanese colonial administration.
“Aiba wrote after her death. “Ms. Pak Kyong-won was absolutely falling love with……, well, an airplane. She was always looking at sky.”
Just by reading that sentence I tend to believe Ms. Pak just loved flying, and if holding the Japanese flag was going to let her do that, then that’s what she did. I think the movie is not offensive at all.
A housewife, yes, but not teacher or nurse. Teachers would have had to teach and follow Japanese designed curiculum - which could potentially make the teachers in the Japanese colonial era as chin-il-pa. The point was that to get a good life, you had to sell out your soul and join the red party oops I mean the Japanese colonial administration.
I have to disagree. My ???? who died recently at the age of 91 was a nurse and she frequently told me how she hated the Japanese authorities (her father and siblings were Protestant clergy, so they often ran afoul of the authorities; they were later killed by the North Korean communists). She did not sell her soul to them, yet she had a profession within colonial Japanese society.
“She did not sell her soul to them, yet she had a profession within colonial Japanese society.”
I think we’re not too far off in agreement. I’m not criticizing those people who cooperated with the Japanese government for the sole purpose of trying to get ahead in life. It’s just a question of personal morals. Would you work for a company that you know is doing some unethical stuff so that you can pay the bills and feed your family? I go through that very same question everyday myself. I work for a Canadian company that orders me to do things that I feel is unethical. To choose, it is a very difficult thing.
“Passing laws that make it illegal to be friends of Japanese”
??????? (clearly meant to mean friends to imperial japanese, however it doesn’t say that it’s okay now, nor does it define what imperial japanese is — could be abused today)
“Passing laws that make it legal to seize their properties and future generations properties
“??????????????? (sorry, don’t know the korean name.. also has the same meaning as imperialist japanese scum, as well as the same vagueness)
“”passing laws that control what percentage of movies must be domestic in a theater;”
Korea is not the only country that does this. France does it too. As well as Canada with the music recording industry. Are they all Nazis?”
is something only wrong if you’re the only one doing it? is canada nazi? no, communist. look at their news ! CBC Communist Broadcasting Comrades (no companies allowed).. no but bad jokes aside, that alone does not make Korea 100% identical to Nazi Germany but it becomes a manner of blocking free speech, a trait shared with Nazi Germany, also in combination with the others…. it gets suspicious. Also that law was recently removed as well, but the fact that it actually passed once, and along with the fact that other anti-japan laws still pass today, should show how far what would otherwise be considered right wing has worked it’s way mainstream, and how willing the government is to block freedom of speech in the name of anti-japan.
“passing laws that ban all Japanese books, movies, comics, music, culture in the country.”
If you’re not aware, that law has been repealed few years ago.”
same as the comment to the previous one.
“OR… she could have been a teacher, a nurse, a housewife, a shopowner, etc.,”
A housewife, yes, but not teacher or nurse.”
I know of people personally who where teachers in modern day north korea. they worked side by side with korean people too (they weren’t considered korea, they where japanese too, just from chosen instead of honsyuu or any other area of japan.) Again, I don’t think being a teacher qualifies as selling-out, but more as staying alive. “live to fight another day”..
“…I tend to believe Ms. Pak just loved flying, and if holding the Japanese flag was going to let her do that, then that’s what she did. I think the movie is not offensive at all.”
Even if she had been, would it change anything? no i don’t think so, i would still be against people trying to block a movie being made because they are incapable of accepting the truth. for all this talk about accepting history, there certainly is no shortage of people who want to deny it too.
correction on my last comment there..:
“Even if she had been” needs to have “… a guard or something along those lines” added to make sense….
Either way, the movie is going to tank in Korea. However it may do better than expected in Japan. If I were the producer I’d shift some of the ad budget to Japan.
While true that it was hard to even mind your own business as a Korean without at least compromising a little with the Japanese system, this woman, being a woman, didn’t have to fly. And the Japanese didn’t hand out aeroplanes (again, esp to a woman) like they did language textbooks and personal names, if you know what I mean.
Even so, I can see the romance it it all. It’s not like she lived long enough to commit serious crimes against Koreans, the Allies, humanity, etc and then lie about them after liberation. Whatever the case, I expect it to be a good film.
“Even so, I can see the romance it it all. It’s not like she lived long enough to commit serious crimes against Koreans, the Allies, humanity, etc and then lie about them after liberation.”
Orancay, read Marmot’s original post. She actively flew to encourage her people to wage war against China and join the Japanese Imperial cause. Now, she didn’t have to do THAT. She actually died while doing that. To what degree she was involved with war mongering for Imperial Japan, I don’t know. But if that is true, there is a possibility that she could be that another Korean kamikaze pilot (whose name escapes me now) who crashed his plane on a US naval carrier.
“this woman, being a woman, didn’t have to fly.”
one could rightfully argue that she was only able to fly thanks to japanese occupation, that being a woman she never could have flown otherwise. however that person would be eaten alive by masses who deny all possible positive things that could have come from japan.
“Even if she had been, would it change anything? no i don’t think so, i would still be against people trying to block a movie being made because they are incapable of accepting the truth. for all this talk about accepting history, there certainly is no shortage of people who want to deny it too.”
Yes and no. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with any censorship - the movie should be allowed to express itself. But as for the question of is the movie accurately portraying the heroin could be another matter. For instance, it could be misrepresentation if the movie portrays her as a patriotic Korean hero (which I gather is the crux of the movie), depending on where the truth lies on the level of cooperation Imperial Japan received from Park.
“one could rightfully argue that she was only able to fly thanks to japanese occupation, that being a woman she never could have flown otherwise.”
Yes, but did she had to be another “Tokyo Rose”, “Hanoi Jane”, - an instrument of propaganda for the Japanese Imperial War ministry? Did she have to fly around Asia, drumming up support for Tojo and his war machine? I’m not saying that was the case here simply because I don’t know anything about this woman. All I’m saying is that being allowed to fly as a woman is different from being allowed to fly as a woman so that she can spread the propaganda that Tojo wanted to spread.
Kimbob: Agreed. If the movie is saying something that isn’t true, then blocking it is keeping lies out of the mainstream. But if the truth happens to be that she really was a dirty jap lover and the movie is blocked solely for that reason, then it’s censorship.
But from the article, I don’t think the movie is talking about her as a hero, so much as talking about a woman and her dream. (although I’ll admit that right from the beginning I referred to her as a true national hero, I was thinking along the lines of women’s rights.)
“Did she have to fly around Asia, drumming up support for Tojo and his war machine?”
Yea, I also know nothing about this woman, so I can’t say much about her… but…
Perhaps she looked at the Japanese occupation as a chance to further Korea as a whole. Look at Europe colonizing what is now America. Even if Americans don’t like the fact that it wouldn’t be what it is today if it wasn’t for the colonization from Europe, it’s true. I think it’s the same with Korea. I don’t think Korea would be what it is today if it wasn’t for the Japanese colonization.
The problem is that the Japanese colonization of Korea wasn’t for the benefit of the people of Korea, but 100% for the benefit of Japan. While Korea may have indirectly benefited from it, that was not the reason. I don’t think it’s wrong to acknowledge how Korea benefited from Japan colonizing her, but I do think it’s wrong to claim that Japan did it for the good of Korea — it was clearly a selfish act just like Europe to America.
Actually, I think the reason for bad relations between Japan and Korea are America’s fault. America gained it’s freedom by defeating it’s former colonizers. However, Korea never got the chance, America (and others) did. Had the colonization of Korea lasted long enough for Korea to become strong enough to overthrow their colonizers, maybe attitudes would be different. As it stands right now, Japan kicked Korea’s ass. Combine that with all the other times Japan has stormed into Korea and wiped the floor with it only to have Japan kicked out by some other invaders. Korea never got a chance to redeem it’s pride, so it’s trying desperately to make hero’s where ever it can, comparing itself to Japan whenever it can, to try and show how strong it has become now.
Now this movie comes along, brings up more dirt about how she was able to accomplish things under Japanese rule that she could never have dreamed of otherwise. It’s bound to be trouble. Pesky truth always getting in the way of pride…
I was also thinking; wouldn’t every living Korean today be a descendant of someone who helped Japan? I mean, since Korea didn’t throw out Japan on it’s own, doesn’t that mean that everyone who didn’t die fighting clearly didn’t fight hard enough? Perhaps didn’t even fight at all?
Sorry to continually hijack treads, but in my comment about Korea not getting a chance to redeem itself, the clearly best solution to the problem would have been for Japan never to have invaded in the first place. I’m not overlooking that.
If Koreans spend as much time and energy on atrocities that is happening now at North Korea as on this pro-Japan things that happend more than 60 years ago, hundreds of thousands of North Koreans would be much happier.
Darin Wrote:
“Sending yourself to the slaughter alone does no good, wait it out until you can raise up enough strength and more numbers to do something about it.”
No one was “slaughtered” for not supporting the Japanese war effort, but they may have been killed for killing Japanese or while fighting against it. How did other countries treat wartime traitors?
Judging from the comments, people are assuming that Koreans were forced to support Japan’s war effort instead of doing it for patriotic reasons. I think that assumption is mainly a result of post-war Korean propaganda.
I have a feeling that 99 percent of the Korean women at the time envied and idolized Park Kyong-won, and I am sure that she imspired a lot of Korean men, too. Otherwise, the Japanese would not have used her.
Park essentially grew up as a member of the Japanese empire. She was only about nine when Korea was absorbed by Japan. It is much, much more likely that she did what she did for patriotic reasons rather than out of fear of being “slaughtered” by the Japanese.
I think that most Koreans at the time were glad to be a part of the Japanese empire, and I think that that truth will eventually emerge as the layers of post-war Korean propaganda are peeled away. The story of this woman and her support of Japan and its war effort is one of those layers being peeled away.
You mean Koizumi can be a Korean blood? They were lovers..you know, cuzzi, cuzzi, smoochi, you know..
In those days, love childs are frequently raised by the legal wife. We need a blood test to determine if Koizumi is a Korean.
Just think about it. Koi, a Korean!
Count to one two three, and there he is, Gerry Bevers with his Korea was the rightful part of Japanese Empire theme. All we need now is Shakuachi to make this complete. I hope this thread doesn’t go into another long list of subjects/merits/counter arguments about the Japanese colonial era. It’s really getting tiresome to repeat/read the same old arguements that has been repeated only a zillion times.
Including this comment, I have made two comments on this thread. You have made seven, Kimbob.
Koreans were not slaughtered for not supporting the Japanese war effort. If you or someone else had corrected Darin, maybe I would not have had to say anything?
So Park Kyong-won was just another one of those special cases where a Korean traitor supported Japan? There seems to have been a lot of such special cases during Korea’s colonial period.
Why would I correct Darin, when he’s correct that sometimes thousands of Koreans at a time were killed by the Japanese?
For instance, the March 1 1919 Independence movement where 7500 peacefully demontrating Koreans were killed, 16,000 wounded, and 47,000 arrested. Of course, you’d call that rebellion - the very same position that Japanese right wing would probably say today.
Another example, the Quanto Earthquake in 1923, up to 10,000 Koreans butchered by the Japanese mob in an orgy of ethnic hate.
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/exhibit/Korea59.htm
That’s not a good way to treat your loyal allies (as you claim). Clearly, it was a relationship based on master nation/slave country mentality, how else can you interpret this behavior.
I really just sometimes why you would accept and agree with every positions made by the Japanese right wing and support their views, word for word.
Like I said, I’m getting tired of debating with you, it’s going nowhere. The last word’s yours. Let’s just say we agree to disagree.
You mean Koizumi can be a Korean blood? They were lovers..you know, cuzzi, cuzzi, smoochi, you know..
In those days, love childs are frequently raised by the legal wife. We need a blood test to determine if Koizumi is a Korean.
Just think about it. Koi, a Korean!
Have the SNU lab check it out. Koizumi’s probably a clone of Richard Gere.
Sorry, forgot to post this link.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.....-s18.shtml
Darin wrote:
Had the colonization of Korea lasted long enough for Korea to become strong enough to overthrow their colonizers, maybe attitudes would be different.
If Japan had not been defeated in World War II, would Korea have become free of Japanese rule? Possibly, but I think probably not from armed conflict.
If it were to have happened (and that’s a big if), it probably would have occurred as a political decision between independence-minded people Koreans working within the system and Japanese rulers minful of how the trend around the rest of the world was stripping away its colonies. Maybe there’d be a Tokyo-centric “Greater East Asian Commonwealth.”
I’m not saying this to knock any Korean freedom fighters, but violent action was never a way to get imperial Japan to respond positively, and reacting harshly to the communist threat presented by some of them was seen as clearly justified by Tokyo.
As it stands right now, Japan kicked Korea’s ass. Combine that with all the other times Japan has stormed into Korea and wiped the floor with it only to have Japan kicked out by some other invaders.
In terms of the Imjin Waeran (Hideyoshi invasion of the 1590s), Koreans learn that heroes like Yi Sunshin were largely or primarily responsible for Japan’s defeat. I’m not saying that’s 100%true, justifiable, or correct (and I’m not going to get sucked into a discussion about how true, justifiable, or correct it is, since that’s not my point), but I am saying Koreans do learn that they had a chance to kick Japan’s ass. Also, Koreans are taught that a number of reigning kings did deal effectively with the problem of marauding Japanese pirates, so again, I don’t think that is the problem.
Japan not having been kicked out by Korean forces may be a problem in some people’s mind. But even if that had occurred, I think the apologies and statements of contrition coming from Japan would always raise people’s ire when they are followed by the word “but.”
Korea never got a chance to redeem it’s pride, so it’s trying desperately to make hero’s where ever it can, comparing itself to Japan whenever it can, to try and show how strong it has become now.
Catching up with Japan has long been a strong motivator in the economic sector, going back to the days when Korea was a struggling, post-war basket case economy.
Now this movie comes along, brings up more dirt about how she was able to accomplish things under Japanese rule that she could never have dreamed of otherwise. It’s bound to be trouble. Pesky truth always getting in the way of pride…
I think you’re looking at this in too simple black-and-white terms.
Yeah, there’s the news of these critics, but are they the dominant view here? After all, it was Koreans who made this movie, Koreans who actively promoted it, and Koreans who are now defending it.
The movie makes no secret of the Japanese connection. Just ten minutes ago I saw yet another advertisement for it, including a scene with people lined up along the street waving Japanese flags.
I was also thinking; wouldn’t every living Korean today be a descendant of someone who helped Japan?
No, not by a long shot. The number of people who actively and willingly (i.e., had a reasonable choice not to do so) was still a small percentage of the overall population. The number of Korean officials in the colonial administration numbered around 15,000 by the end of World War II, police were in the thousands, the number of volunteers and unsuccessful applicants to the Imperial military was in the low hundreds of thousands.
Even if you add teachers and others who might be seen as promoting Imperial rule (I don’t think it’s fair to label all these people as collaborators), you still get numbers in the low single-digit percentages. Two generations later, I don’t think they produced over half of today’s population.
Uh, hands up everyone here who has actually seen the movie? Anyone? Anyone? Just me? Nice to see so many people flapping their gums about a film they have not seen.
(Although, to be fair, most commenters have said little about the subject at hand, and have, instead, digressed into yet another endless yammer about the nature of the Japanese colonial period… and, of course, who is most “wrong”).
In fact, when the film opens, it begins in 1910 with a scene of Japanese soldiers marching through the Korean countryside. Some of the townspeople are jeering (mostly the older folk), but most of them are cheering. It is, in fact, the single most mature scene I have ever seen in Korean pop culture about the Japanese colonial era. It gave me so much hope for the film.
Then came the rest of the film. Most of the film is a long, uninspired soap opera. Toward the end, we get a prolonged torture scene, caused by a mass-killing in the name of independence. So even when the film is being goofy, it is still pretty ambiguous about the colonial period. The films crimes are more of cliche and sappiness than they are of historical murkiness.
Kushibo - Sorry, I did not mean to sound like I was responding to your comment. Your comment while I was writing mine.
Kimbob,
Where do those March 1 death figures come from? According to police records, 553 people died over a 3-month period of rioting. Not all the demonstrations were peaceful. People did not just go up and down the street yelling “mansei” for three months. Property was destroyed and people were killed.
As for the 1923 earthquake, Japanese police tried to protect Koreans, not hunt them down. Besides, deaths from roiting and hysteria are different from claiming that Koreans were “slaughtered” for not supporting the Japanese war effort.
I am glad you will not be debating this subject anymore because it seems clear to me that you are not interested in seeking the truth.
Where do those March 1 death figures come from? According to police records, 553 people died over a 3-month period of rioting.
And of course the colonial administration, surprised and later embarrassed though they were over the situation and how their forces reacted, were trying to be as accurate and forthcoming as possible about the whole affair, so uncritically citing their stats would be most appropriate.
Andrew C. Nahm writes in “Korea: Tradition & Transformation”:The Japanese response to the independence movement was immediate and brutal. They arrested and imprisoned the signers of the Declaration of Independence, as well as thousands of others who took part in the movement. They outlawed all assemblies and street demonstrations, restricted traffic, closed markets, searched houses, schools, and even churches for men and documents.
Actions taken by the Japanese produced heavy casualties; some 1,200 Koreans were killed and 16,000 were wounded. A total of 715 houses were burned down, and 447 church buildings and many Korean schools were destroyed. In one area in Suw?n, Ky?nggi Province, alone, the Japanese burned down 270 houses and killed over 40 Koreans by locking them in a church and then setting fire to the building. Over 19,500 Koreans were arrested and of these 2,656 were given prison terms. A sixteen-year-old girl student named Yu Kwan-sun was arrested, tortured, and died in prison. Six gendarmes, two policemen, and one Japanese were killed, and about 130 Japanese were wounded during the entire period of the March First Movement.Now these stats might be just as faulty, of course.
Not all the demonstrations were peaceful. People did not just go up and down the street yelling “mansei” for three months.
Yes, but the violence was quite one-sided, and at some point, Koreans fearing for their lives from a marauding police force may have been justified in using some violent means as defense or to launch an offensive against those coming after them. Ultimately, the blame lies with a colonial administration that used violent means to crush what was, at the beginning when they began to react harshly, a non-violent event.
Why would they do this? Because the peaceful event was challenging their authority, which was considered de facto violence against their rule.
Property was destroyed and people were killed.
Again, in a very one-sided way.
Kushibo,
Again, where did Mr. Nahm’s numbers come from, particularly the 1,200 killed figure? And even if 1,200 people were killed, the next question should be, “Who killed them?” Did the Japanese kill them or did Koreans kill them for being pro-Japanese?
Also, why would the Japanese go around burning churches and schools? The Japanese police were trying to restore order, not add to the violence. Also, why doesn’t Mr. Nahm’s account mention anything about the Japanese homes and businesses that were destroyed?
Also, I remember reading a different version of the church burning. I think it involved Koreans running amok through the city, destroying buildings, attacking a police station, killing at least one police officer, and later barricading themselves in a church. I will have to find my source to be sure, though.
Anyway, one thing is very clear. Mr. Nahm’s numbers and Korean history book numbers differ. Why do the numbers differ so greatly? My Korean history book says over 8,000 were massacred, Mr. Nahm says 1,200, and police records say 553. Where do Korean history books and Mr. Nahm get their numbers?
What is one-side is the account that Mr. Nahm gives.
“Also, I remember reading a different version of the church burning. I think it involved Koreans running amok through the city, destroying buildings, attacking a police station, killing at least one police officer, and later barricading themselves in a church. I will have to find my source to be sure, though.”
I promised not to say anymore on this useless endless dialogue, but I just couldn’t resist getting this in. Notice how Mr Bevers blames this squarely on Koreans again as usual. He says, “Koreans running amok” - that’s the same view from the Japanese police side. If the Japaense police says only 553 lawless Korean rebels were killed, then it must be true.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
Again, where did Mr. Nahm’s numbers come from, particularly the 1,200 killed figure?
It’s hard to say. The book lists dozens of academic Korean, Japanese, and American sources in the history portion of the biography. He should have been more generous with footnotes.
And it’s Dr. Nahm (Ph.D. in Asian Studies from Stanford University), but I was just as remiss in omitting that title.
And even if 1,200 people were killed, the next question should be, “Who killed them?” Did the Japanese kill them or did Koreans kill them for being pro-Japanese?
The Korean casualties killed by other Koreans for being pro-Japanese. I’m sure in your world view, that would be most of them, huh?
The sentence that mentions the 1200 killed refers to “actions taken by the Japanese [producing] heavy casualties,” so I’m guessing not many.
But let’s say pro-independence activists started going after pro-Japanese Koreans. Wouldn’t the number of such casualties be comparable to the number of Japanese casualties. Even if it were, hypothetically, ten times the number of Japanese killed, it would still be only a small percentage of the overall Koreans killed, even using police statistics.
Also, why would the Japanese go around burning churches and schools?
I don’t know. Why would the Imperial Japnaese go around invading other countries?
Colonial Japanese authorities did see some of the Protestant churches as a threat (that theme is in several Time archives on my blog). And the Korean schools (Dr. Nahm specifically mentioned Korean schools) were also seen as a challenge to colonial authority.
The Japanese police were trying to restore order, not add to the violence.
The Japanese police were trying to maintain control of Ch?sen for Japan and they were confronted with a very large and public challenge to their authority.
Also, why doesn’t Mr. Nahm’s account mention anything about the Japanese homes and businesses that were destroyed?
I don’t know that he didn’t. Maybe it’s included in the 715 houses that were burned down.
But Gerry, he did specifically state the number of Japanese killed and wounded (I had even put it in bold face for all to see):Six gendarmes, two policemen, and one Japanese were killed, and about 130 Japanese were wounded…
Also, I remember reading a different version of the church burning.
Please, do tell us what page from Shintaro Ishihara’s book, “The Japan That Can Say Nobody Was Killed by the Japanese Empire.”
I think it involved Koreans running amok through the city, destroying buildings, attacking a police station, killing at least one police officer, and later barricading themselves in a church. I will have to find my source to be sure, though.
Even if that account were absolutely correct about a mob run amok, would that justify barricading people in a church, burning it to the ground (and allegedly shooting those who tried to come out)?
Anyway, one thing is very clear. Mr. Nahm’s numbers and Korean history book numbers differ. Why do the numbers differ so greatly? My Korean history book says over 8,000 were massacred,
Which history book is that? Does it say “over 8000 were massacred,” or does it say “over 8000 may have been massacred”? With things like Samil, Tiananmen, Kwangju, etc., a range is typically given.
Mr. Nahm says 1,200, and police records say 553. Where do Korean history books and Mr. Nahm get their numbers?
Where do the colonial authorities get their numbers? They get them from the colonial police, who had every reason to downplay their own over-reaction, with government complicity. Public and governmental reaction in Japan, which had very little oversight into the military-run Government-General, was very negative.
What is one-side is the account that Mr. Nahm gives.
Well, you got me on that one. When I quoted that last part by Dr. Nahm about the number of Japanese killed or wounded, I deliberately omitted the next sentence:Six gendarmes, two policemen, and one Japanese were killed, and about 130 Japanese were wounded during the entire period of the March First Movement. Now I know that I’m compromising my objectivity as a historian and my integrity as a doctor of philosophy, but I can’t help but say I wish the Korean patriots would have killed more of those cock-sucking ????. Nine Japs killed was just not enough!
Censorship of the movie isn’t a good idea. If she was really a despicable traitorous collaborator, then that fact should be publicized (though I would be suspicious of those who would claim it, because of the political agenda of nationalists here).
Why not just let movie-goers go if they want and make up their own minds? Plenty of bs movies get made in the US and elsewhere (I’m thinking of the whitewashing of the scumbag Che Guevara). Don’t censor, just criticize and ridicule.
Gerry Bevers: As for the 1923 earthquake, Japanese police tried to protect Koreans, not hunt them down. Besides, deaths from roiting and hysteria are different from claiming that Koreans were “slaughtered” for not supporting the Japanese war effort.
We are actually taught very differently in the Japanese education system. The police definitely did nothing to try and help the Korean population in Japan. After the earthquake, existing racial tension between the Korean-Japanese and “Ethnic”-Japanese gave birth to many false lies that the Koreans were plotting to over throw the government, poising the water. These lies spread throughout the area, and angry mobs reminiscent of what you’d see in the movie Frankenstein went through the streets rounding up and killing all Koreans. How did they check? Well their were no passports since they were legally considered to be Japanese, so what they would do is make them say words with the “tsu” sound in it. Due to the nature of the Korean language, people who speak Korean natively have a very difficult time with the “tsu” sound and say “chu”. Pretty barbaric testing and actions. Also lead to the death of a few Japanese with speech problems, but no one really wanted their DNA to be passed on anyway. The police were busy doing their own looting, too busy to be bothered to help anyone.
I’m not attempting to say the many bad things done by the Japanese didn’t happen, I’m just trying to make sure that things are correct. The post earthquake mob, was disgusting.
Kushibo:Don’t forget the sentance that comes after this I was also thinking; wouldn’t every living Korean today be a descendant of someone who helped Japan? … , I mean, since Korea didn’t throw out Japan on it’s own, doesn’t that mean that everyone who didn’t die fighting clearly didn’t fight hard enough? Perhaps didn’t even fight at all? I don’t mean that everyone who survived worked directly for the Japanese, but that they didn’t die fighting, so they didn’t fight hard enough. Not Patriotic.
As for my comment about going in for the slaughter, I didn’t mean that everyone just got slaughter just because (even though that did happen some times too), I meant going in to battle alone, with no weapons or support because you’re too proud to think. Too Patriotic.
So being Too Patriotic is in my opinion a bad thing — but those that weren’t Patriotic are the ones that survived, so all Koreans still alive would be descendants of them… is my line of thinking.
Darin wrote:
We are actually taught very differently in the Japanese education system. The police definitely did nothing to try and help the Korean population in Japan.
Frankly, this is the kind of thing I am glad is in Japanese textbooks. One of the dangers of racism within a group is that it can boil over into things like this.
In Korea, I think people should be taught about the Wanpaoshan Incident, which reportedly led to murderous mobs killing Chinese in Korea.
I must say, though, that I am disappointed in the failure of the Japanese apologists on this list to point out what really happened. According to contemporary Japanese reports carried in the Western media:15,000 Koreans, accused of looting and rioting, added to Tokyo’s loss and were interned by the troops sent to restore order.
Yea, troops rounded up 15,000 Koreans (as well as many Chinese too). No real secret there. The problem is when people claim that the troops did it to save the Korean peoples’ lives. While that may have inadvertently happened, it was not the reasoning.
Also note that most were released very shortly their after once things calmed down (as they had done no crime), and even those that were held longer and had charges pressed against them were released before too long on the prince’s wedding day, an attempt to show good faith.
But do keep in mind that there is no 1 Japanese textbook, yet many many textbooks. Out of the hundreds, there seems to be only 1 controversial one. I don’t know how Tsukurikai’s book deals with this issue, but I’m willing to look if anyone wants to know.
“Six gendarmes, two policemen, and one Japanese were killed, and about 130 Japanese were wounded during the entire period of the March First Movement. Now I know that I’m compromising my objectivity as a historian and my integrity as a doctor of philosophy, but I can’t help but say I wish the Korean patriots would have killed more of those cock-sucking ????. Nine Japs killed was just not enough”
I am glad that the author confessed that he was very biased.But he should have confessed also that he had no solid evidences as to the number of people killed. Even Japanese right wingers admit that nobody know the exact number, even the police report is just approximate..
I wonder, according to this author, how many “cock-sucking “Korean police should be killed in the Jeju massacre in which “estimates of deaths among the island’s locals range from 30,000 to 80,000, between one in ten to one quarter of the population”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_massacre.
Is what really happened described in detail in Korean textbook?
Darin wrote:
“Six gendarmes, two policemen, and one Japanese were killed, and about 130 Japanese were wounded during the entire period of the March First Movement. Now I know that I’m compromising my objectivity as a historian and my integrity as a doctor of philosophy, but I can’t help but say I wish the Korean patriots would have killed more of those cock-sucking ????. Nine Japs killed was just not enough”
I am glad that the author confessed that he was very biased.But he should have confessed also that he had no solid evidences as to the number of people killed. Even Japanese right wingers admit that nobody know the exact number,
Dr. Nahm says “some 1,200.” That implies that it is approximate. I only wish he had used footnotes more so I could know which of the sources in the back were pointing to that.
even the police report is just approximate..
500 is approximate. 600 is approximate. “553″ is meant to sound like an accurate accounting.
I wonder, according to this author, how many “cock-sucking “Korean police should be killed in the Jeju massacre in which “estimates of deaths among the island’s locals range from 30,000 to 80,000, between one in ten to one quarter of the population”
Cheju people I have talked to about this called the massacre massive and devastating. One in ten, if not more, may well be correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_massacre.
Is what really happened described in detail in Korean textbook?
Belatedly, it has been. One of the things that is important to note about complaints of Japanese historical amnesia is that, right or wrong, various groups (and not just the chinbo/jinbo “progressives”) are trying to get a more accurate accounting of what many claim is harm that came to Koreans at the hands of other Koreans, as well.
Fervent anti-communism in Korea probably led to the deaths of many innocent people. Matched by purges of clergy, bourgeoisie, “pro-Japanese collaborators,” etc., etc. in the North.
No one gets out of this clean.
Sorry, that was a response to KImKim, not Darin.
I wonder, according to this author, how many “cock-sucking “Korean police should be killed in the Jeju massacre in which “estimates of deaths among the island’s locals range from 30,000 to 80,000, between one in ten to one quarter of the population”
Just to be clear, the “cock-sucking” sentence was all a joke. ?? ??. ???
“Fervent anti-communism in Korea probably led to the deaths of many innocent people. Matched by purges of clergy, bourgeoisie, “pro-Japanese collaborators,” etc., etc. in the North.”
My only question/quibble here, Kushibo, is whether the killings by anti-communists matched the killings by communists. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I had the impression that killings by the communists were often more systematic, and therefore probably resulted in far more deaths.
Mind you, I’m not sure of the time frame you’re referring to and I’m not counting Jeju, but was Jeju really merely a kill-commie fest? I had the impression it was something else or more than that.
Does this film remind anyone of The English Patient? Even though the main character (also a pilot), played by Ralph Fiennes, was a very romantic and likeable character, it was painfully clear that he had collaborated with the Nazis (one of the other characters was tortured brutally as a result). The audience is challenged to resolve this moral dilemma on their own. I don’t know if there’s much room in Korea for such maturity in facing history.
But perhaps this is all a “tempest in a teacup”. After all, it is just a movie, and the reaction of some overzealous hypernationalists. As an American, I certainly wouldn’t want to be judged by the intellectual caliber of Hollywood blockbusters, or the strange controversies they arouse.
Can anyone point to some good examples of a Korean film on history that doesn’t fall into the trap of glorifying a hero or demonizing a villain?
“We are actually taught very differently in the Japanese education system. The police definitely did nothing to try and help the Korean population in Japan.”
Wow Darin, I appluad you for your candid views - something I can’t say the same for some people here (won’t mention names). And if that’s what the Japanese education system teaches, then there is hope after all.
As for the comparing the Cheju massacre with Tokyo earthquake, apples and oranges. Not one person is defending what happened at Cheju, nor trying to whitewash with excuses what happened, nor try to minimize the losses of innocent lives. No-one is putting up memorials to honor those who were involved in the witch hunt. For the vast majority - There are no people who blame the victims for running amok causing problems for themselves. Anyone who defends Cheju massacre would be treated as kooks. Big difference.
Whoa Whoa Whoa Kimbob
Not one person is defending what happened at Cheju, nor trying to whitewash with excuses what happened, nor try to minimize the losses of innocent lives. No-one is putting up memorials to honor those who were involved in the witch hunt. For the vast majority - There are no people who blame the victims for running amok causing problems for themselves. Anyone who defends Cheju massacre would be treated as kooks. Big difference.
No one is defending what was done to the Koreans after the earthquake either (murdering part anyways. some people say that 15,000 Koreans were rounded up and put in jail for their own protection, and that may very well have saved many lives, but those were not the original intentions — but they are in no way saying the angry mob was right.)
No one is trying to whitewash what happened either. It’s in the textbooks. It’s in the ‘controversial’ text book too.
No one is putting up memorials to honor the mob that went out in search of Koreans either.
No one is blaming the Koreans for what happened either.
There’s no need to make-up crazy things just so you can shoot them down, there are plenty of crazy things that actually did happen in the world that we don’t need to go around making more up.
She looks like Marmot’s wife.
“No one is defending what was done to the Koreans after the earthquake”
If you read my post again Darin, I also said this:
“nor trying to whitewash with excuses what happened, nor try to minimize the losses of innocent lives.”
If you go back a further up the posts, and read what Gerry Bevers position (and he consistently defends all the positions of the ultra right wingers in Japan) on this and other Japanese-Korea colonial era related subjects, then you’ll know what I’m talking about. Claiming that Japanese were just defending themselves from lawless Koreans running amok, is what I call white washing. It’s like me claiming that Cheju massacre was caused by ignorant commies who deserved to be butchered.
Kimbob,
I see you are back. Anyway, you seem to have trouble reading what I write. I never said that the Japanese were “just” defending themselves from lawless Koreans running amok. I questioned your numbers and told you that not all the demonstrations were peaceful, which you claimed. I also asked you where the 8,000 killed figure came from, which you forgot to answer, by the way.
Darin,
I do not know much about the 1923 earthquake, but I am pretty sure I remember reading that Koreans took refuse in police stations. As for the soldiers rounding up 15,000 Koreans and Chinese, if they had wanted to kill them, that would have been a good time to do it. Instead, they released them after the violence had settled down and after they determined they had committed no crimes.
I am not excusing what happened after the 1923 earthquake, I just wanted to mention that the police was also involved in saving lives. Besides, the earthquake was a red herring thrown out by Kimbob, who was trying to defend your comment that Koreans were slaughtered if they did not support Japan’s war efforts.
Kushibo,
Yes, it is a little disappointing that Dr. Nahm failed to footnote his death figures. As for the history book I referred to, it is entitled “??? ???? ?? ???.” It was written by Dr. ???, who teaches history at Yonsei University. He did not say “maybe 8,000 were killed”; he said “over 8,000 were slaughtered (”8000? ?? ?????…”). He also claimed that more than 2 million people participated in the “movement” (”3.1 ??? ???? 200?? ????…”). Again, I wonder who counted those 2 million people?
By the way, Korean middle school history books claim that over 20,000 were killed or wounded (”???? ??, ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? 2?? ?? ????,”). They also mention a claim that over 300 children under the age of seven were murdered (?? ???? ???? ??????, 7? ??? ?? ??? 300? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????.”) Under 7 would be under 6 years old in Western calculations.
Here is your quote from Dr. Nahm’s books:
Actions taken by the Japanese produced heavy casualties; some 1,200 Koreans were killed and 16,000 were wounded. A total of 715 houses were burned down, and 447 church buildings and many Korean schools were destroyed. In one area in Suw?n, Ky?nggi Province, alone, the Japanese burned down 270 houses and killed over 40 Koreans by locking them in a church and then setting fire to the building.
Look at the quote. “Actions taken by the Japanese produced heavy casualties….” Your objective Dr. Nahm implies that the Japanese did all the killing and burning. He does not mention anything about Japanese homes and businesses and police stations being destroyed and burned down. Would the Japanese burn down their own homes, businesses, and police stations?
As for the church burning, I have still not found the story I was looking for, but I will keep looking. By the way, Korean middle school history books say that 35 people were killed in the church fire, but your Dr. Nahm says that over 40 were killed. I wonder why the numbers differ?
Correction: Kimbob claimed that “7500 peacefully demontrating Koreans were killed,” not 8,000.
Some Koreans love to demonize Japanese, making up the story so that they can hate Japanese more.
Gerry, the 7500 figure came from the Yonhap news, and it was quoted in the article by wiki encyclopedia online. I see that you do not put any credibility on any sources that may support thousands of Koreans slaughtered. But how is it that you do not have any questions regarding the stats put out by the Japanese side? For instance, the 553 dead Koreans numbers that are claimed by the Japanese police? There is no possibility in your mind that they would try to underplay the incident? What happened to the famous Bevers quest for truth when it comes to examining the evidences put forth by the Japanese side?
Whatever the number is 553, 7,500 or 50,000, we agree that a lot of people were killed for daring to antagonize Japanese rule? Or are you saying something else? Maybe they were just being lawless rioters burning down Japanese homes? I guess that is what you are saying here. Is there no possibility that there were a lot of resentment that Koreans were third class citizens in their own country with resentments toward colonial rule by outsiders who were a traditional enemy?
“I do not know much about the 1923 earthquake, but I am pretty sure I remember reading that Koreans took refuse in police stations. As for the soldiers rounding up 15,000 Koreans and Chinese, if they had wanted to kill them, that would have been a good time to do it. Instead, they released them after the violence had settled down and after they determined they had committed no crimes”
Let’s see, you do not know much about what happened, but then how are you so sure what happened? I’ll play the same game as you, name your source.
In the meantime, here’s a good read on the Kanto Earthquake.
http://www.tsujiru.net/compass.....tanabe.htm
Are you still here, Kimbob?
Yonhap News was not around during the April 1st Movement in 1919, and this is what was quoted in Wiki Encyclopedia:
A declaration of independence was read in Seoul and, according to Korean record, an estimated 2 million people took part in peaceful, pro-independence rallies. (The Japanese record claims less than half million.) This protest in the countryside was suppressed by Japanese government. An estimated 7,000 were arrested, 553 killed and 1409 wounded. Many Korean Christians were crucified or burnt alive in churches as they fought for Korean independence within the Korean independence movements.
Whether the Japanese downplayed the figures or not, those are the figures they reported, and the police were probably in the best position to collect data.
If you believe the Japanese police figures, 553 Koreans were killed in three months of rioting. That may seem like a lot of deaths, but it is a lot less than the 7,500 you quoted or the 30,000 to 65,000 killed in the Jeju Uprising. Also, imagine what might have happened in the Kwangu Uprising had it lasted three months instead of just ten days. In less than 10 days, the Korean military killed at least 207 people and there are claims by some that as many as 2,000 were killed.
As for the 1923 earthquake, you are saying I said things I did not say. I did not say that I was “sure what happened.” I said, “I am pretty sure I remember reading that Koreans took refuse in police stations.” (By the way, that should be “refuge,” not “refuse.”)
I have not been able to find my source that said Koreans took refuge in police stations, but I will keep looking. By the way, the 6,000 Korean deaths included Koreans killed by the quake itself.
As, yes, the article you linked to was fairly interesting.
Gerrybeaver
It is a shame that Japanese attacked koreans at the Kanto earthquake.
However I am sure your memory is correct.
“The lack of lines of communication inevitably gave rise to rumors, the most sinister of which was that the Koreans were planning some form of takeover in the aftermath of the disaster. On Sept. 5th the Prime Minister issued a warning to the public that these rumors were without basis and were contradictory to the spirit of assimilation that Japan wished to achieve with Korea. Nonetheless, the rumors led to groups of vigilantes who patrolled the streets, and there were accounts of attacks on Korean citizens. This prompted the government to open a shelter where as many as 3,075 Koreans were lodged for their own safety”
http://nisee.berkeley.edu/kanto/yokohama.html
And the police arrested Japanese who attacked Koreans. As a result 62 Japanese who attacked Koreans were prosecuted.
The official tally of Kwangju Uprising dead (as of 1997) was 238 (191 known fatalities, including 164 civilians, 23 soldiers (12 killed from fighting each other) and 4 police, as well as 47 missing officially accepted by the gov’t). There are still over 100 not accepted by the government as positively killed during the uprising, as well as an unknown number of those not willing to come forward, even after all these years (100 more? less? who knows?). The official tally is certainly more than 207.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
Yonhap News was not around during the April 1st Movement in 1919, and this is what was quoted in Wiki Encyclopedia: …
Um, I’m not sure what your point here is. Are you saying Kimbob was misleading everyone by citing a source that didn’t actually say what he said it says?
If so, you ought to take a look at the
March 1st Movement entry that was linked to what you provided.According to reports issued by the Yon-Hap news agency, “…more than 7,500 demonstrators were killed and about 16,000 wounded. Some 47,000 others were arrested by the Japanese police”. According to another report the crowd cheered the arrested men.Of course Yonhap was not around then, nor is it spelled “Yon-hap” with a hyphen. Almost certainly the author/editor of that wiki is saying that these are the figures Yonhap cites. The article does cite Bruce Cumings’ “Korea’s Place in the Sun” as a source, for what little that’s worth.
Anyway, what Wikipedia has to say over such a thing is irrelevant anyway, since virtually anyone can go and change it how they see fit.
Gerry Bevers wrote:
Whether the Japanese downplayed the figures or not, those are the figures they reported, and the police were probably in the best position to collect data.
About as much as any one quote possibly can, this one sums up what is so galling about your approach to Korean-Japanese issues.
You claim to be seeking the truth in these matters, but you never approach Japanese-supporting source material with anything close to the fine-toothed scrutiny, often mixed with innuendo and insinuation, with which you approach Korean-supporting source material.
The above sentence, had it been reversed to have it referring to Korean police rather than Japanese police, would have been (rightfully so) torn apart in your effort at seeking the truth.
In a civil society where the police are on the side of the citizens and not an oppressive colonial power, yes, the police would probably be in the best position to collect data.
But the police in this case, along with the colonial authorities at large, had every motive to downplay their own wrongdoing, over-reaction, and violent crackdown. Meanwhile, the colonial authorities had every motive to portray the movement as violent.
The same would be true of Rhee’s government in relation to the Cheju massacre, or Chun Doo-hwan’s government in relation to the Kwangju Uprising, or even perhaps the Bush Administration in terms of the Iraq War death toll (supposedly the death toll is tweaked so as to not include personnel who die outside a somewhat narrow set of parameters).
It’s very telling how willing you are to accept so uncritically the official Japanese colonial tale despite their obvious incentive to characterize their own actions in as positive a light as possible, while you try to pick apart Korean claims that counter them. The latter is a prudent thing to do, but the former betrays where your bias lies.
Gerry wrote:
“If you believe the Japanese police figures, 553 Koreans were killed in three months of rioting. That may seem like a lot of deaths, but it is a lot less than the 7,500 you quoted or the 30,000 to 65,000 killed in the Jeju Uprising.”
It also happens to be a lot less than 5000 innocent poeple killed by Korean soldiers at Vietnam.
So it has to be much more than 533, even if there are no evidence - - - Japanese must be evil race!!!
“The Ministry of Culture and Communication of Vietnam has publicly estimated that the number of innocent victims killed in the provinces like QUANG NGAI, QUANG NAM, and BINH DINH was approximately 5,000 people. It was reported that most Vietnamese people have not forgotten the shock of the massacres yet and the mental anguish of the survivors have had serious and had lasting effects.”
http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2000/366
Koreans were lucky:Vietnamese people were not revengeful
“However, when asked for comment and to confirm the alleged killings, Vietnam’s Foreign Ministry said it did not want to dwell on the matter”
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/patric...../korea.htm
“If y