Neither Korea might like the new U.S. ambassador in Seoul, but House International Relations Committee chairman Henry Hyde apparently does–OFK has a letter written by Hyde to Ambassador Vershbow that really is a MUST READ. Here’s the money shot:
Those who inflict suffering on these innocent people are, indeed, members of a "criminal regime." Those who would make apologies for such a regime, whose nuclear proliferation, counterfeiting, gross human rights violations, and other illicit activities threaten the security and prosperity of the American people and the entire international community, are no friends of America or her people.
Not the most subtle way of putting that, I suppose.
South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon has refrained from responding:
Ban responded with caution to the veiled criticism. "I don’t know what he meant by saying that," he told reporters.
Sure you do, tough guy.
{ 53 comments… read them below or add one }
everyone knows what he means, the fact ban says he doesnt shows how much of an imbecile he really is
I will remove my plumed hat, epee, and cape, and render a deep bow in the direction of Washington in honor of Congressman Hyde. Well put!
I will remove my plumed hat, epee, and cape, and render a deep bow in the direction of Washington in honor of Congressman Hyde. Well put!
I may considering taking my hat off to Hyde as soon as the United States takes in, say, at least 1% of the number of these innocent people that South Korea has during the Roh administration.
North Korea is a criminal regime, no doubt about it, but if people like Hyde really cared about the people there, they would actively be trying to find a way to get the people out of China. They can do it, there’s even a law in place, so why isn’t it happening? Maybe Hyde should stop making the speeches and start getting the ball rolling.
What are they doing on this matter? This is hypocrisy, on par with (in league with?) Roh-Chung on the matter.
Does anyone have a list or source of how many North Korean refugees have been resettled to the South each year, especially during the last three administrations? Or, for that matter, to any other country?
The American ambassador should draw the SK foreign minister into a private meeting where dozens of reporters lay in wait to film the American ambassador tearing the SK foreign minister a new asshole, like the SK FM tried to do to the Japanese ambassador a couple of months ago.
Kushibo, #1, South Korea is easier for North Koreans to reach than the U.S. #2, North Koreans undoubtedly would rather live among their co-ethnics in a Korean-run society than in the U.S., which they may well still believe to be an unfriendly nation and people. It’s not at all hypocritical for the U.S. not to actively try to convince North Koreans to settle in the U.S., rather than South Korea. And if you want to keep on playing devil’s advocate, be sure to discuss the attitudes of the typical South Koreans toward North Korean refugees/citizens in South Korea.
Shakuhachi wrote:
Kushibo, #1, South Korea is easier for North Koreans to reach than the U.S.
Bullshit. The US government has the means just as much as the South Korean government to get them to let North Koreans out. But they don’t.
#2, North Koreans undoubtedly would rather live among their co-ethnics in a Korean-run society than in the U.S.,
There are a million “co-ethnics” of theirs in the United States. They won’t be lonely.
And I have too little time to find it now, but a good percentage of the former Choson-saram in South Korea would like to resettle in the United States.
Your argument has some validity. It would make sense for South Korea to be taking in, say 60 or 70 percent, while a consortium of other countries (e.g., the US, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, Canada) take in the other 30 or 40 percent.
But we have 100 percent and 0 percent. So again, to Hyde, put up or shut up.
which they may well still believe to be an unfriendly nation and people.
They also learn that South Korea is also an unfriendly country. Even now.
It’s not at all hypocritical for the U.S. not to actively try to convince North Koreans to settle in the U.S., rather than South Korea.
Yes, it is. If a government politico is going to bemoan South Korea doing nothing while he is in a position to do something and he chooses not to, then that is hypocrisy.
And I’m not saying this to defend the Roh Administration. I’m saying this because I think that someone ought to be finally running with the ball now that they’ve passed the fucking act already! Damn!
And if you want to keep on playing devil’s advocate, be sure to discuss the attitudes of the typical South Koreans toward North Korean refugees/citizens in South Korea.
Yeah, yeah. And not every Wisconsonian or Minnesotan loves the Hmong. That’s hardly irrelevant since refugee resettlement anywhere has a high potential for causing friction.
I am not playing devil’s advocate. I am angry that the United States is in a position to do something, such as using its influence with Beijing, to resettle some of the people who are in the diplomatic missions or hiding out, and they don’t.
Like I said, just shoot for 1%. That would be a couple dozen, I think. Get the fucking ball rolling and save the bitching for later.
North Koreans are dying because Seoul, Washington, and Tokyo are all fighing each other to be Beijing’s bitch.
My apologies to Shakuhachi. That was Dogbert I was replying to.
Reply to Kushibo,
During the Seoul Summit conference on human rights this month, the consensus was that the key to solving the problem of North Korean refugees was China. The problem is how to get the Chinese on board.
The US did miss the chance to bring in one NK refugee last month who tried to get in through Mexico.
One thing you have to remember is that North Korean refugees (and all North Koreans for that matter) are legally citizens of the Republic of Korea so the ROK clearly ‘has dibs’ on them. A North Korean refugee trying to escape to the US would be considered an immigrant from South Korea.
BTW, due to Chinese and ROK government policies (among other things) the number of North Korean refugees is down for the year.
Um… why should the US, with millions of refugees and illegal immigrants be expected to take more? How many refugees does Korea have? 500? 1000?
Get off the soapbox, kushibo!
Andy the Yangban wrote:
During the Seoul Summit conference on human rights this month, the consensus was that the key to solving the problem of North Korean refugees was China. The problem is how to get the Chinese on board.
Precisely. But I fail to see how Hyde is helping Seoul, Washington, and Tokyo work toward any kind of unified front in that regard by this kind of rhetoric. Maybe, just maybe, his efforts should be channeled toward something more productive.
If something productive were happening from the US side, I’d be a lot less ticked off about something like this.
The US did miss the chance to bring in one NK refugee last month who tried to get in through Mexico.
And what were the reasons for that? That should not be happening at all, especially in light of the act that was passed.
I do appreciate that Hyde has some concern for this issue, but he needs to work on what’s wrong with his side (and yes, when there is an act in place and still NOTHING is happening, something is wrong) before he starts sniping at the other sides.
One thing you have to remember is that North Korean refugees (and all North Koreans for that matter) are legally citizens of the Republic of Korea so the ROK clearly ‘has dibs’ on them. A North Korean refugee trying to escape to the US would be considered an immigrant from South Korea.
I’m not so sure that’s true now with the Act in place.
And at any rate, the “North Koreans are technically ROK citizens” argument sounds like an excuse for inexcusable inaction.
Why? Because China lets the NK refugees who make it to the diplomatic missions out of China only if they go to a “third country.” This is because there is something particularly unseemly for Beijing-Pyongyang relations if Beijing sends them directly to South Korea. So in fact, it would be easier if someone other than Seoul who has clout with Beijing were trying to take them in.
Look, Koizumi did the right thing by saying “give us back our North Koreans” when the Chinese police invaded their consulate. It’s clear that countries with clout with Beijing can stand up and demand that North Koreans be treated in a manner different from sending them back to North Korea.
When the US can’t even take in one which is right next door (i.e., Mexico), just what the hell is going on?
I’m not saying this to bash Washington or to make Seoul look better; I have no interest in either.
I’m saying this because the United States has the diplomatic means and now the legal pretext with which to do far more than it is, but instead it is choosing to snipe at others (others who have actually done the thing they’ve failed to do). [And I'd be saying this whether Bush, Kerry, McCain, Gore, or Clinton were in the White House.]
Whiskey Tango Fuck!
BTW, due to Chinese and ROK government policies (among other things) the number of North Korean refugees is down for the year.
Show me the numbers. I’ve tried to get some, but I get inconsistencies. Someone, please, let’s see some stats.
Thanks, Yangban, for expressing that clearly. I’ve never seen Kushibo so het up about something!
And the thing is, the issue of accepting North Korean refugees is a red herring that is distracting from the truth of Hyde’s message, which is that South Korea is basically offering aid and comfort to a criminal regime. The longer South Korea props up North Korea, the more Koreans will die. Pretty ironic (and hypocritical) given all the bleating about how important “blood ties” are.
Shakuhachi wrote:
Um… why should the US, with millions of refugees and illegal immigrants be expected to take more?
Because of the North Korea Freedom Act of 2004, that’s why.
You see, Shakuhachi, our democratically elected representatives in Congress decided that it was a noble and worthy cause and therefore should do something serious about it, despite appeals from Australians with no connection to the United States that there are already “millions of refugees and illegal immigrants” (since when are these two thrown together?) in our country and so we shouldn’t take any more.
How many refugees does Korea have? 500? 1000?
Over 5000. And the government spend hundreds of millions of dollars on resettling, assimilating, and subsidizing them.
Get off the soapbox, kushibo!
Get informed, Shak.
“Over 5000. And the government spend hundreds of millions of dollars on resettling, assimilating, and subsidizing them.”
What is your source for that?
You see, Shakuhachi, our democratically elected representatives in Congress decided that it was a noble and worthy cause and therefore should do something serious about it, despite appeals from Australians with no connection to the United States that there are already “millions of refugees and illegal immigrants” (since when are these two thrown together?) in our country and so we shouldn’t take any more.
The two are connected because many illegal immigrants claim to be refugees.
Over 5000. And the government spend hundreds of millions of dollars on resettling, assimilating, and subsidizing them.
5000 is not a lot. Is that the best Korea can do for its ‘co-ethnics’, or is Korea expecting the US to pick up the tab on this one too?
Are South Koreans conducting daily protests at North Korean consulates around the world?
Agreed with dogbert above – I’d really like to see the source for ROK having spent ‘hundreds of millions of dollars on resettling, assimilating, and subsidizing’ some 5000 refugees, separate from any other expense.
despite appeals from Australians with no connection to the United States that there are already “millions of refugees and illegal immigrants” (since when are these two thrown together?)
The two are connected because many illegal immigrants claim to be refugees.That is not the case for the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of them in the United States. And yes, we were talking about the United States.Over 5000. And the government spend hundreds of millions of dollars on resettling, assimilating, and subsidizing them.
5000 is not a lot.Really? That’s five to ten times more than the number you guessed. How many has Australia taken in? If it’s “not a lot,” as you say, then I’m sure you can convince your government to help out.Is that the best Korea can do for its ‘co-ethnics’,5000 is almost all of the North Korean asylum seekers who made it to foreign diplomatic missions in China or who made it to third countries. That’s not a bad track record.
At any rate, Australia, the United States, Japan, Canada, etc., are all welcome to do better.or is Korea expecting the US to pick up the tab on this one too?Korea is paying for resettlement, assimilation, and monthly support, without having asked for assistance from the United States. What the fuck is your point? I know that as an American you must be outraged that… oh, wait a minute, you’re not an American. So what the hell do you care about what the U.S. pays for other than to twist it around so you can beat South Korea over the head with it?
South Korea pays 2.5 to 3.0 percent of its GDP for defense, a rather high number for a Westernized economy, and almost all its male citizens do an average of over two years of military service. Who is getting a free ride now?
Since North Koreans are by law citizens of South Korea, let’s not muddy the issue by claiming “hundreds of millions” are spent on refugees. I doubt the figure, but correct or not, that’s money South Korea is spending on its own citizens. A far cry from money the U.S. may expend in hosting say, refugees from Somalia. Apples and oranges.
I’m trying to find a place with consolidated figures, but for now, here it is in piecemeal form:
According to this site:In the past 50 years, South Korea has resettled more than 7,100 North Korean refugees, an average of 20 persons per year between 1954 and 1997 (878 total), but at an accelerating rate since then:
72 in 1998, (all administrations up to Kim YS)
148 in 1999 (Kim DJ)
312 in 2000 (Kim DJ)
583 in 2001 (Kim DJ)
1141 in 2002 (Kim DJ)
1281 in 2003 (Roh Moohyun)
1694 in 2004 (Roh Moohyun)
and 882 to date, 2005.11.20 (Roh Moohyun)
with an expectation of a total refugee population of 10,000 by the end of 2006.So the much-derided Roh administration has resettled more North Koreans than all other administrations combined.
This paper mentions a $70,000 per head figure: “approximately US$70,000 each for average citizens, including resettlement money, tuition bills, housing, and public assistance.” Multiply that by the nearly 6000 North Koreans resettled into the South during the Kim Daejung and Roh Moohyun administrations and you get around $400 million.
And Dogbert, they’re not quite ROK citizens until they successfully complete their training at Hanawon, after which they receive their ?????. But your point is well-taken, that South Korea has no business refusing anyone.
All I’m saying is that South Korea is the only country resettling DPRK citizens, and it continues to do so, though at a lower rate for which the Roh-Chung administration should be ashamed of themselves.
But until the US lets in even 1% of what Roh and Chung have, fix that problem first.
’south korea is offering aid and comfort to a criminal regime!’
who says it’s a criminal regime? the us? does south korea label north korea a criminal regime? i don’t believe it does. i think the korean people think they are aiding and comforting the people of north korea. that’s the objective. why is the way the south koreans are going about doing this wrong? are you going to tell me because people are dying? that they’re starving? well, under the policies that you recommend the same things will be happening except there won’t be any real economic developement which, in the end, is of no real help to the people of northern korea.
korea’s policy is best for korean reunification. us policy is best for keeping korea apart.
‘is no friend of the us.’ hyde
that no-friend had almost half a million troops in vietnam. 5,000 of them died. japan can’t say that, congressman. perhaps you should busy yourself with the following:
1. bush glibly admits to killing over 30,000 iraqis.
2. house leader(r) charged with felony offense.
3. senate leader(r) under criminal investigation.
4. top white house adviser(r) to the vice president charged with felony offense which alleges he leaked the name of a cia operative who just happened to be the wife of a bush critic. senior adviser to the president is under investigation.
5. the us now maintains secret prisons housing people who were literally abducted off the streets.
6. the us now tortures people.
7. the us now spies on it’s citizens without judicial review.
8. the us president can now strip an american citizen of all his or her rights.
america seems to becoming just like north korea, wouldn’t you say, congressman?
Nulji, finding corruption among a group of politicians is like looking for worms in dirt.
Don’t muddy the issue by bringing that stuff up. North Korea is a criminal regime. South Korea is wrong for any efforts to cut the number of people it helps resettle. And the United States is hypocritical to bitch about that while it does nothing despite having passed an act that enables it — dare we say requires it? — to do so.
And, Kushibo, at the risk of stating the obvious, the comparison might be slightly exagerated, seeing how nulji has managed to write similar stuff for quite some time without him and his family being wisked away by Homeland Security to a gulag in Alaska. Or even a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe. Although he was quiet for a while, so I can’t state for certain what happened to him during that time.
Some day, when the doors up north are opened, there will be any number of North Koreans who demand to know, “What did you do to help us while we were being tortured/our babies killed/starved?” South Korea will have much to answer for that day. But good work, nulji, with the usual Korean-American tactic of complaining about the U.S. whenever Korea is criticized.
And Kushibo, you are muddying the waters. Hyde wrote:
“Those who would make apologies for such a regime, whose nuclear proliferation, counterfeiting, gross human rights violations, and other illicit activities threaten the security and prosperity of the American people and the entire international community, are no friends of America or her people.”
Rep. Hyde is saying nothing about South Korea resettling North Koreans (BTW, the reason the Roh administration has accepted so many more than past administrations has less to do with the administration’s policies themselves, but with the obvious fact that it has become far easier in recent years for North Koreans to get out of that country at all), he is informing South Korea that at least some in the U.S. realize that South Korea (based on the racist Korean ideology of “blood ties”) is aiding a regime that threatens not only the U.S., but South Korea itself.
Thanks for the link, Kushibo.
“And Dogbert, they’re not quite ROK citizens until they successfully complete their training at Hanawon, after which they receive their ?????.”
Kushibo, the author of the paper you linked to herself states: “The South Korean constitution then claims that those [North Korean] refugees can enter its borders as a citizen [sic].” I think she is correct on this point.
Hyde’s comments are nothing more than a hard-line rebuttal to some Korean Lawmakers’ remarks about Ambassador Vershbow last week. I think everybody is reading way too much into them.
America is a slave-driving Jim Crow voting nation. –> Those who inflict suffering on these innocent people are, indeed, members of a “criminal regime.”
I fuckin eat and sleep North Korea man!
What I want to know is why the hell are these expat scum of the earth staying in Korea and raising hell everywhere.
I heard the Phillipines and Thailand have legal prostitution and cheap as hell alchohol if you’re interested. So please, go to some other country and fuck around.
What I want to know is why the hell are these expat scum of the earth staying in Korea and raising hell everywhere.
I heard the Phillipines and Thailand have legal prostitution and cheap as hell alchohol if you’re interested. So please, go to some other country and fuck around.
We prefer Korean girls. Got a problem with that?
Orangejok and shak, jerk off somewhere else please.
Dogbert I am with Kushibo on this. While I agree that NK is basically a criminal regime, the method US is using to deal with it has little to do with reality. Great that many are protesting in front of NK embassies, raising their voices against such criminal and inhuman activities, but other than that, have they actually done anything? Currently most of the people in this bandwagon of ‘all talk no action’ group reminds me of naive college students thinking that they are going to talk KJI and his power to death, and that they are going to talk NK into becoming a democracy! Yes, rasining awareness on these issues is all well and good, but show me the MONEY or better, show me some action. Raising awareness of the issue is all that they do when there are people (SK government in this case) who are actually trying to implement concrete measures to do something about it. Do I agree with SK governments policies and measures? No, mostly not. But at least they are trying to do something concrete compared to the guys sitting on their hands, jabberin away.
What is the SK government supposed to do? Officially condemn the NK government? So all channels of communication and relationship is shut off, so what little chance of aiding the innocent NK citizens, and sowing seeds of change up north disappears? Have NK hide for another 50years living reclusively out of your hairs? This is not an issue that the outside alone can change. The outside world needs to discuss, cooperate and assist, while the NK citizens themselves need to be the ones who begin the ultimate change. Shutting off all aid and relationship with NK is ultimately shutting off the chance for average NK citizens to learn that there is something better out there.
Kushibo is right that the U.S. should be doing more for refugees, but Dogbert is right that raising the refugee issue in the context of the Hyde riposte to the Uri Party MP who called for expelling Verbshow over his “criminal regime” comment is a red herring. Nulji is …. Nulji (and there’s a lady poster out there named Mi-Hwa who might be his perfect soulmate).
Hyde and Congress, however, do not bear blame for failure to follow on the NK Human Rights Act. Hyde played a key role in getting it passed and as recently as last month chaired a hearing that raised the question as to why no North Korean refugess had yet been admitted under the Act. (Tim Peters among others were witnesses and painted a harsh picture of U.S. embassies in China and elsewhere in their handling of refugees).
Among the reasons I’ve heard offered for the lack of refugee intake is resistance from Homeland Security and Immigration, driven by concern that N.Korean spies/crooks/saboteurs would be among those trying to get in. There have also been cases (as in South Korea) of PRC-born Koreans posing as North Korean refugees. More broadly, the U.S. faces political constraints in not wanting to piss off China and South Korea, 6-party nuclear talks partners, by provoking a mass exodus.
The criminal nature of North Korea is beyond dispute and it will be the counterfeiting, drug smuggling, kidnapping and other villainy that distinquishes (and the whacky Kim cult stuff) the DPRK in the future when historians look back and compare communist regimes. The brutality we associate with the North maybe be of a higher degree, but all the communist regimes were/are cruel police states or killing machines.
One reason why people should support the Sunshine Policy is because it acts as a Trojan Horse, subverting the NK government. The policy increases contacts between North and South Koreans, and allows SK businesses to operate in the North. As more North Koreans see with their own eyes how much better off South Koreans are, their loyalty to Kim Jong Il will plummet. The North Koreans will want to follow South Korea’s example.
I wrote a complete response to Mi-Hwa’s line of thinking here. A year ago.
The executive summary is this: North Korea enforces a regime-only model of engagement, hermetically sealing foreigners and their ideas off from the ordinary people. A relevant quotation from the North Korean government suggests that no such change will be permitted:
It is the imperialists old trick to carry out ideological and cultural infiltration prior to their launching of an aggression openly. Their bourgeois ideology and culture are reactionary toxins to paralyze peoples ideological consciousness. Through such infiltration, they try to paralyze the independent consciousness of other nations and make them spineless. At the same time, they work to create illusions about capitalism and promote lifestyles among them based on the law of the jungle, in an attempt to induce the collapse of socialist and progressive nations. The ideological and cultural infiltration is their silent, crafty and villainous method of aggression, intervention and domination.
. . . .
The imperialists ideological and cultural infiltration, if tolerated, will lead to the collapse and degeneration of society, to disorder and chaos, and even to the loss of the gains of the revolution. The collapse of socialism in the 20th Century ? and the revival of capitalism in its place ? in some countries gave us the serious lesson that social deterioration begins with ideological degeneration and confusion on the ideological front throws every other front of society into chaos and, consequently, all the gains of the revolution go down the drain eventually.
They may be psychopaths, but that doesn’t make them stupid. They see Nicky Ceausescu in their nightmares.
Well put, Joshua. Mi-hwa’s hopes for the Sunshine Policy were indeed part of the thinking that went into the plans back in the late 1990s. But they haven’t been valid really since the paid-for June 2000 summit, after which North Korea has deftly coopted the South and blunted any hope for real changes.
Among other evidence:
1. All family reunions are now at Mt Kumgang, rather that in alternating North-South capitals.
2. There has been no reciprocal summit, as pledged.
3. Kumgang and Kaesong are fenced off enclaves, designed to keep out any Trojan Horse.
4. The increasing inter-Korean travel is almost entirely South Koreans going North (on official business or pricey tourist scenes).
5. Uri Party MPs and ministers like Chung Dong-young have become apologists for the DPRK on everything from human rights to the criminal activities of Kim’s regime.
6. South Korean humanitarian aid goes to the North on the North’s terms (no meaningful monitoring) and at least in the case of the Ryongchon train blast, Seoul had to grovel to get the North even to accept aid.
7. South Korea’s government-imposed “media reforms” have fallen heaviest on the papers that were critical of North Korea and the Sunshine Policy. Many outlets ignore bad news in the North and have an “uri minjok ggiri” flavor to their coverage. Yonhap’s website heading for North Korea news used to ne “bukhan” and has been changed to “minjok news”.
Agreed with Kushibo that the United States should be doing a lot more for North Koreans, if not only for the sole purpose of being in the high moral position. I’m sure many S.Koreans would roll their eyes when Americans tell them that South Koreans are not doing enough to help the North Koreans, when in reality, the US (officially) has done exactly zilch to help the fleeing the North Koreans. It looks ludicrous when you are the biggest complainer that others are not helping enough, and yet you have done nothing yourself. I would love to see the US take the leadership position and show South Korea how it should be done. But I’m afraid, letting in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of North Korean refugees into the US is a political mine field that the politicians in the US will try to stay away from. I have a feeling that would be extremely unpopular.
‘the comparison might be slightly exagerated…’marmot
that we can make a comparison at all is what bothers me. doesn’t it bother you? oh i forgot, you’re the strong patriotic american who supports these kinds of unamerican things.
What do you suppose the South Korean gov’t.’s reaction to the U.S. actively seeking to resettle North Koreans in the U.S. would be? I doubt it would be favorable. Look at the uproar caused here when the North Korea Freedom Bill was passed.
“that we can make a comparison at all is what bothers me. doesn’t it bother you?”
I don’t know of any THOUGHTFUL people who are actually comparing the United States to North Korea.
1. secret prisons
2. abduction of people from foreign countries.
3. use of torture
4. spying on citizens
5. corruption at the highest levels of government.
6. leader who claims absolute power
both the us and north korea are guilty of the above. courtesy of people like you, slim. and quite a few thoughtful people can see what bush and the he-man brigade have done to america.
‘worms can be found anywhere..’ kushibo
well, you’re wrong , kushibo; corruption, immorality, and the love of money can only be found in south korea. i thought you knew that.
Does anyone have a link to how many people have participated in the family reunions over the years? Has it gone down lately, gone up, plateaued?
Interesting exchange on the respectaive putative responsibility of the US and RPK for NORK refugees, but like Kushibo’s original provocation, really beside the point. While the US may be faulted for not doing more for the refugees, that doesn;t make Hyde’s statements about apologists for the NORKS, such as large slices of current ROKGOV, including Comrade Chung Dumb-young, not being friends of the US “hypocritical”.
I agree with Nulji and Kushibo, its all the fault of the Americans.
Fuck off, Shingles.
I never said any such thing and I resent the implication.
I have said that the United States can do far more than it has been, and should make that a priority ahead of bashing others.
Roh is unable to speak ill of a military dictatorship with artillery aimed at Seoul, and Chung calls a N. Korean official “comrade.” As they do do not speak out over the repression of fellow Koreans, the current S.K. gov’t is morally bankrupt.
I have a suspicion the “comrade” comment will haunt Chung later.
Nulji often makes some cogent criticisms (seriously) but the N.K.=U.S. parallel is just his way of goading. Bush thank god will be out of office later, and the next administration will reverse (or try to anyway) the damage he’s done.
Anyway, I just saw a story that the S.K. gov’t is coming around (at least Ban Ki-moon is) to acknowledge the nork counterfeiting:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....10025.html
It’s a start, at least.
Fuck off, Shingles.
I never said any such thing and I resent the implication.
Kushibo, did you forget writing this?
What are they doing on this matter? This is hypocrisy, on par with (in league with?) Roh-Chung on the matter.
Spewer is right on the mark.
Fuck off, Shingles.
I never said any such thing and I resent the implication.
Kushibo, did you forget writing this?
What are they doing on this matter? This is hypocrisy, on par with (in league with?) Roh-Chung on the matter.Calling this kind of thing hypocrisy and saying the problems being faced are “all the fault of the Americans,” as ‘Shingles’ said I was doing, are two entirely different things.
Also, as one could easily see, I’m quite critical of the Roh-Chung axis of weasels, too.
Interesting exchange on the respectaive putative responsibility of the US and RPK for NORK refugees, but like Kushibo’s original provocation, really beside the point. While the US may be faulted for not doing more for the refugees, that doesn;t make Hyde’s statements about apologists for the NORKS, such as large slices of current ROKGOV, including Comrade Chung Dumb-young, not being friends of the US “hypocritical”.
You may see Washington conservatives bitching about some Seoul government representatives having too friendly a relationship with Pyongyang while doing extremely little to actually help the North Koreans victimized by Pyongyang as non-hypocritical, and that’s fine.
But what I see as the problem is this: there are lots of DPRK citizens being tortured, killed, or allowed to die, or fearing for their life, both in North Korea and China, and something MUST be done about it.
But in both Washington and Seoul there are two regimes that are so ideologically driven that they are unwilling to hammer out an effective, workable compromise that would be acceptable to both.
No, instead the childish ideologues have to throw insult after insult at each other, not meeting this person, sniping at that person, etc., etc. Like two different high school cliques with some sort of grudge.
And while all this happens, more North Koreans in China get captured and sent back, more North Koreans get killed.
Hyde’s public chiding, while technically right in content, brings us one step further from where we should be, the same as Chung not meeting Lefkowitz.
He may score political points with people already on his side, but at whose expense? Does this help us or hurt us in trying to find some way to actually help the people who need it?
And that’s why I see this as hypocritical: if he is so concerned about North Korea (and I think he is) then he should be pushing the US side to do far more than it is, while putting a lid on his public rhetoric, which would best be delivered privately, if there is any hope of its recipient actually being receptive to it.
Chung Dong-young is an asshole. I hope voters are frequently reminded of his “comrade” comment next year and the next. And I don’t envy Ban Kimoon the job of having to “explain” idiotic remarks or actions from Chung or Roh.
But let’s leave it to the conservatives and moderates in Korea to dress down Chung publicly. Really, does Hyde actually think that a conservative American politician publicly rebuking a leftist politician in Korea is going to actually make that person come around?
Like it or not, for at least the next two years, the left-wing government in Seoul and the right-wing government in Washington are stuck with each other. Do we really have to let that many more suffer because these two sides can’t get their fucking act together enough to overcome ideology and see that there is enough common ground to work from?
America is the mean cop with the stick, and South Korea is the nice cop with the carrot. I think it’s a good idea to have a combination of both approaches, because one approach alone may not be enough to force NK to change.
Kushibo,
Your language is so strong. Do you beat a person to death with your cane when they bump into you? I understood that you blame america for this problem and\or for not finding a solution. Am I wrong? You seem to write and write.. and write and write.. but anybody who reads between the lines, and lines and lines sees that you want to push blame on america.
Fisking!! gives you great power!! I have to keep special watch on each and every word.
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