UPDATE 1: Quadriplegic Steven Edwards wishes Hwang good luck in Wired (hat tip to the Chosun Ilbo).
ORIGINAL POST: Prof. Gerald Schatten might have been a rat trying to scurry off a sinking ship, but it may be too late–the Hankyoreh, quoting a University of Pittsburgh official, is reporting that the U.S. scientist will likely be stripped of his professorship. The official said the school’s investigation of Schatten has almost been completed, and that his wrongdoing has been sufficiently revealed. Unless there’s a drastic change in the situation, the professor was likely to loose his job, he said.
Not that Schatten should feel too down about the whole thing–Korea’s English-language dailies could always use a good copyeditor.
This does not bode well for Prof. Hwang Woo-suk, of course. But frankly, he appears screwed regardless of what happens to Schatten.
Young scientists and former colleagues are on the offensive against the former national hero. Presidential adviser Park Ky-young, herself under fire for her involvement in the scandal, is blaming Hwang. Then you have another unnamed government official pointing out contradictions in Hwang’s explanations. SNU has begun DNA examinations of Hwang’s stored stem cells and those of the contributors, and is indicating it will begin looking into his past research as well.
So no matter how many law professors write letters claiming (foreign) conspiracies, it appears it won’t be enough to save Hwang, who may wish to consider becoming a full-time monk at Jeondeung Temple when this is all over. But then again, investigations are still ongoing.
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64 Comments
Excellent job, Marmot. This is why I visit your blog regularly — and these days, often, too.
I’m now in the middle of grading final essays but hope to be blogging again early tomorrow morning.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Excellent job, Marmot. This is why I visit your blog regularly — and these days, often, too.
And here I was, thinking people visited to see the boobie pics
Boobie pics? I haven’t seen many pictures of Hwang Woo Suk on your blog.
By they way, how long will it be until some wiseacre refers to him as “Hwang You Suk”?
Uh . . . not very long?
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Jeffery heard this one the other day ‘Hwang Wang-Ta’
a bit cruel but quite on the ball as far as the international community and a few brave souls in South Korea see it
the korea basher must be working overtime to ignore the fact that it’s the koreans themselves who are exposing a national hero.
to set an example you have to have examples. kudos to mbc and the young scientists for exposing the truth and in the process setting an example that other koreans can follow.
as for dr hwang, no matter if he produces these stem cells, he needs to quickly fade from the scene. perhaps he should take marmot’s advice and head to a buddist temple.
lastly, the nyt has an article about fraud in world science. it’s not only koreans. it’s canadiens too.
And to echo Nulji, note that the American Schatten is not clean in this whole affair . . . appropriately enough, given the Medieval English pun on his name.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
“And to echo Nulji, note that the American Schatten is not clean in this whole affair . . . appropriately enough, given the Medieval English pun on his name.”
Maybe Schatten was duped with promises of glory.
They cast a spell on you, you know, the Koreans. When you work closely with them, like I do, you see this. They have this power. It’s like a virus.
Some of my colleagues, like Schatten, are infected with this virus. They should be pitied, not punished. They should receive treatment because this is as real as SARS. I see it all the time. It’s a matter of money.
“the Hankyoreh, quoting a University of Pittsburgh official, is reporting that the U.S. scientist will likely be stripped of his professorship.”
This looks like wishful thinking by HAKI at this point; they would love to have Schatten go down big, because then they can spread the blame and take the footlights off Hwang.
I’ll wait for something to show up in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette before.
At this stage, while culpable, Schatten seems to be guilty only of the very much less significant offenses of glory-seeking through purely complimentary authorship of the Science article and, more seriously, gross negligence in lending his prestige to a project the results of which he really hadn’t vetted at all. He probably can’t he held accountable for aiding and abetting a fraud, because as far as we know now, he did’t know anything was amiss when the article was published. Hwang and perhaps soem of his colleagues on the other hand, appear to activvely have perpetrated a fraud.
It’s very important to make sure these distictions are not lost sight of, so that the waters aren’t muddied when it comes to assessing responsibility.
I didn’t find anything at Google News or Yahoo News (are they clones?) on Schatten’s alleged sacking, but I did find this article which includes this:That has now turned into a curse for the University of Pittsburgh researcher, whose questionable involvement with Hwang is not his first brush with scientific controversy.
At the very least, Schatten faces a formal reprimand once an internal school investigation is concluded.
I will consider what disciplinary actions are appropriate in this case pending the findings, said Dr. Arthur Levine, dean of the medical school and Schattens boss.
Well, coincidence of coincidence, it turns out that Dr. Schatten was involved in one of the scandals at my alma mater, the University of California at Irvine (UCI), that I mentioned here at Marmot’s as an example of crooked scientific practices elsewhere. It also involved unethically obtained ova (UOOs, for those in the trade):Ten years ago, a criminal investigation of a UC Irvine fertility clinic reached Schatten’s lab at the University of Wisconsin.
The Irvine clinic was supplying Schatten with eggs that had been illegally obtained from women for research without their consent. One Irvine doctor was convicted and two others fled the country.
Schatten believed the Irvine eggs were legally and ethically obtained, said Wisconsin bioethics professor Alto Charo, who helped with the schools investigation. Charo said the Irvine doctors gave Schatten fraudulent documents asserting the eggs were collected properly.
“Jerry Schatten was absolved of any wrongdoing,” Charo said.Wow! I was blown away when I saw that. It’s deja-vu all over again. If Dr. Schatten (aka, the Eggman) were Korean, a bunch of people here would be applying that “Koreans always got an excuse for everything” line. And he got away clean, while others were thrown in jail or had to flee Korea, I mean, the United States.
Oh, wait a minute. Dr. Schatten is Korean… Dr. Hwang himself referred to dr. Schatten as “my brother.”
Anyway, while looking for that, I found that Wired has an interesting article on one American’s personal stake in Dr. Hwang’s research: Good luck, Hwang Woosuk.
“Not that Schatten should feel too down about the whole thing–Korea’s English-language dailies could always use a good copyeditor.” And he can look the other way when falsehoods are published–he’s a natural!
Kushibo, Schatten got paid by Hwang, $250,000 of Korean tax money, according to english Chosun Ilbo.
This doesn’t surprise me.
If that’s true, that’s another count against Schatten and creates a basis for further inquiry into whether he was knowingly involved.
Kimbob, if you have a link to that quarter million dollar figure, I’ll include it in this post on my blog, which is almost a perfect clone of my comment two comments before yours.
Kushibo, look in today’s English chosun site.
The physical evidence seems pretty damning to Schatten, and to of course, Hwang. Hate to say it, Baduk is once again right. These two were in on this from the very begginning.
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....00028.html
If Kimbob is referring to this article, then he has his numbers wrong.
By the way, why shouldn’t Schatten be paid for his effort and for his expenses, especially if he is not going to benefit from any patents?
So far I have not seen any evidence of wrongdoing on Schatten’s part. None of the email content has been made public, and there has only been speculation that Schatten should have known that Hwang could not have created new stem cells in two month’s time.
If Schatten did commit ethical violations, it would probably be limited to his knowing that Hwang researchers had supplied the ova or, maybe, that the number of cloned cells were exaggerated, not that the cells were faked. If he were making business proposals, Schatten obviously believed the cloning technology existed.
Koreans have been demonizing Schatten ever since he severed ties with Hwang. Many blame him for Hwang’s demise, so I am going to take what I read about Schatten in Korean newspapers with a big grain of salt. People should be especially wary of the Chosun Ilbo since that paper was one of the big Hwang supporters.
The Chosun Ilbo article says that of the $200,000, Schatten got $80,000, which sounds a lot more reasonable than $250,000.
But of course, Gerry says we should take what the Korean press says with a grain of salt, so it could be much higher!
Gerry is right that getting paid for one’s efforts is nothing criminal. I don’t think he and the two others mentioned in the article should be demonized for receiving $200,000 to be divided amongst themselves and for expenses.
But the AP article I did cite, tying him to what was then a big egg-related scandal in the mid-1990s, makes me wonder if people are being a little too quick to assume mere naivete on Dr. Schatten’s part.
I don’t know, that $200,000 sounds like a bribe to “shut your eyes and mouth, and translate the lies to English”, to me.
What Schatten fell into was not unique in Korea. A typical foreign executive trick.
As soon as a foreign executive arrive in Korea, the welcoming squad takes over. He gets wined, dined and supplied with women.
Then, on the third day, in the midst of merry-making, he signs some papers that he does not recall later.
This is what happened to Schatten, who did not do his job right. He screwed around.
Now, he is getting what he deserves. Don’t pity him. He just fell into the temptation, which is around us every day and constant presence in everybody’s daily work - love for money and pleasure.
Schatten was the last author on the paper with asterisk after his name. His address is written on the paper so that any question about the paper should be addressed to him.
The last author guarantees the quality of work and data. He is usually a professor who was in charge of the work, when others could be just graduate students who did lab work.
In other words, he is like a president of the company and the rest are worker-bees. The last author is a very important title.
When Schatten wrote to Science the first time, he should not have just limit his role. Hw should have ask that his name be removed from the article.
He wavered. And, he is getting destroyed. He did something wrong and it was his best interest to fess up. Cover-up may work in other countries(see how Science and Nature got totally fooled by these crooks), but in this case, young scientists in Korea were too smart and too knowlegeable. Schatten had no chance.
Baduk, I think it sounds like Hwang was doing some underhanded stuff, but after the stuff I’ve seen (like this), it sounds like you’re letting him off the hook too easily.
Schatten was not taken in by Hwang the svengali. He knew what he was doing and it looks like he was involved in some unethical and illegal deals before. In the 1995 case, Schatten was let off the hook, but another person was imprisoned over it and two people fled the country.
Even if he was 100% entirely innocent regarding the 1995 incident, it should have given him pause. Enough that he wouldn’t just be la-de-da-ing as he proofreads Hwang’s homework, takes his $200,000, and slaps his name on a major paper.
The two have gone from collaborators to co-conspirators. Schatten, like Hwang, is no babe in the woods.
There was a hidden agenda in the Science magazine staff and reviewing scientists. They want to promote the cloning in America and they want to play with human embryos.
Only one who stands in their path of the 21st century progress is the president Bush. He will not let them. So to ridicule the president and other Christians, the magazine was very liberal in publishing cloning articles and human embryo research papers with minimum fact-checking.
These scientists have the agenda. They want to disprove God by claiming they can make any living organism they want. To do that, they are willing to spread lies, as in the case of Hwang. Hwang’s article contained numerous errors, which got through the peer review system that these magazines are so proud of.
Conspiracy and hidden agenda!
Hwang did what most of scientist do. He needed about 250 human ova to produce one human stem cell line(this could easily be a lie as well). One out of 250, if he is lucky.
So, what is he supposed to do? Sperm. He spray the sperms and produce one candidate out of one egg. Many of these died out and never became a stem cell line.
But, just pose here. What was he doing? He made a human seed with intention of using it as a lab rat, to grow it outside the womb to play with. To harvest human parts by killing these humanoids. Yes, he murdered them with total disregard for their humanity.
It is somewhat different from abortion, which is terminating a humanoid for lack of funds. Here, Hwang and others created multiple humanoids just to play with! Mad scientists at work.
If this is what the future holds, we must re-adjust the direction where this Brave New World bus is heading. Tell the driver(your congressmen and the president) to turn right. Or, is it left?(Many drug companies want this cloning research to be done in the US). In any case, stop this type of research!
Kushibo,
You need to reread the article you referred to:
“Jerry Schatten was absolved of any wrongdoing….”
Hwang was not just some no-name scientist off the street asking Schatten to proofread his paper. Hwang had already made a name for himself, which is probably why Schatten was caught with his guard down. Besides, apparently it is not east to recognize fraud in such papers even if you are looking for it.
Schatten is not a co-conspirator, yet. And even if he is a co-conspirator, I wonder why he would bring attention to himself by severing his ties with Hwang while claiming that Hwang lied to him? Shouldn’t he have been afraid that Hwang would get revenge for by exposing his part in the conspiracy?
I’m very curious about what is in the email between Schatten and Hwang. I have a feeling that even if there is evidence of ethical violations, it will be relatively minor.
Gerry wrote:
You need to reread the article you referred to:
“Jerry Schatten was absolved of any wrongdoing….”
… said Charo, the in-house bioethicist at Wisconsin who helped conduct Wisconsin’s in-house investigation.
I remember that scandal being a pretty messy affair (I think the Orange County Register won a Pulitzer for it). But by itself, it is nothing to target him with.
But one can’t help but see a pattern emerging with this guy. In the 1995 criminal investigation, where one person is convicted and two fleed the country, Dr. Schatten:
(a) says he believed the eggs were legally and ethically obtained all along, and
(b) claimed it was the other guys who gave him fraudulent documents asserting the eggs were collected properly, and
(c) put his name on research (as the contact point, just like with Hwang) on published research conducted with the other guy.
And in 2005 we have another case where Schatten:
(a) says he believed the eggs were legally and ethically obtained all along,
(b) claimed it was the other guys who gave him fraudulent documents asserting falsehoods about the eggs, and
(c) prominently placed his name on a research paper in a way that would make it appear that he had been involved in far more of the research than he actually was.
The two cases (right down to having his name on joint research with the unethical egg obtainer), are just too similar to dismiss out of hand any possibility of a pattern. If he’s not more involved than you suggest, then he’s either very, very unlucky, doesn’t know how to judge others’ character, or is just a lightning rod for shit happening.
Like I said, since this guy was already either involved with or burned by illegally and/or unethically obtained eggs, it seems odd that he would have been so nonchalant about this issue here and now.
I think, in all likelihood, Dr. Hwang is ultimately and primarily responsible for whatver mess comes out of this, that needs to be made clear. But Dr. Schatten is no babe in the woods. His involvement is probably deeper than just proofreading.
Hwang was not just some no-name scientist off the street asking Schatten to proofread his paper. Hwang had already made a name for himself,
Schatten was no small-time doc himself, so I find it difficult to believe he was all starry-eyed to the point of being rendered senseless about the chance to work with Hwang.
which is probably why Schatten was caught with his guard down.
Gerry, according to his own claims, the guy had already been burned once, in 1995. How does he get caught with his guard down yet again? Are you saying he’s just dumb?
Besides, apparently it is not east to recognize fraud in such papers even if you are looking for it.
The guy’s a major fertility expert who’s done lots of research in the field, including attempts at major animal cloning.
Schatten is not a co-conspirator, yet.
He either is, or he isn’t. It’s simply we don’t know yet.
And even if he is a co-conspirator, I wonder why he would bring attention to himself by severing his ties with Hwang while claiming that Hwang lied to him?
Because the one who cuts and runs first has the greater chance of looking like he’s innocent?
Dr. Asch of the UCI scandal fled to Mexico, and he’s not talking, so all Dr. Schatten would have to do is plead that he was “duped” by the crafty Argentinian and the Chilean working with him, and he’s off the hook. Lo and behold, something similar happens, why not go ahead with the same tried-and-true tactic?
Shouldn’t he have been afraid that Hwang would get revenge for by exposing his part in the conspiracy?
Claiming he was duped and he had “jet lag” might give him reasonable deniability that he was ever that involved, which makes a good defense against the very guilty-looking Hwang.
I’m very curious about what is in the email between Schatten and Hwang. I have a feeling that even if there is evidence of ethical violations, it will be relatively minor.
I think Dr. Schatten has a good chance of being sacked. But hey, he’ll just find another place to go to, like after Oregon and Wisconsin. If he can deliver the goods, he can still make a buck despite ethical violations.
“I wonder why he would bring attention to himself by severing his ties with Hwang while claiming that Hwang lied to him?”
Simple. That’s because the rat likes to get off the sinking ship captained by Dr. Hwang.
We now know that there were swirling questions about Hwang’s work on the scientific internet forums - even way before Schatten broke ties with Hwang. And then the PD notebook contacted Schatten to do a story back in the autumn. That was when Schatten decided it was getting too hot for his liking, so he decided to bail by doing a little preemptive strike. All the people who was associated with Hwang should be invistigated, no matter what their nationality is.
working overtime, aren’t you, gerry?
The Chosun Ilbo piece is very slippery.
Of the USD200,000 alleged to have been involved, ~48,000 was apparently used to cover out-of-pocket expenses, including travel, loging, etc. expenses for Schatten’s team’s Korea trip. The remaining ~USD152,000 is described as having been “shared between Schatten and fellow doctors Calvin Simerly and Laura Hewitson, with the lions share of $79,858 going to Schatten himself.” This makes it sound as if the money went straight into their pockets.
However, the article goes on to report that “In June, Hwang told the Chosun Ilbo, ‘Our whole research team consists of 10 teams including foreign collaborators. Recently, we sent $200,000 in research funds to one such foreign research team.’” So all that the record aupports in the way of documented conclusions is that Schatten’s group got research funds.
Of course, it’s possible that such “research funds” were a payoff for Schatten putting his “good house keeping seal of approval” on the Korean paper. But there’s absolutely no evidence of that, so the Chosun’s statement that “there are suspicions that it was simply the professors price for putting his name behind Hwangs research in Korea”, is nothing more than an unsubstantiated smear - of both Schatten and Hwang.
A little-noticed element in this matter is the fashion in which [some] Koreans appear to have been as duped and manipulated as Schatten may have been. Several commenters have remarked on the manner in which foreign experts often are seduced into lending their credibility to Korean efforts under false pretenses. Ths also happens in business, where the Korean party will induce a foreign one into a joint venture in order, e.g., to obtain the necessary funding from domestic investors. The usual pattern is that the Korean company then jettisons the foreign partner. In any case, not only has the foreigner been duped, so have the domestic investors and, frequently, some division of ROKGOV that has had to issue the relevant approvals and licenses, and may itself have invested public funds or other resources as seed money or in-kind capital contribution. [Of course, one or more govt officials are often working hand in golve with the Korean promoter, either in an overtly venal way in exchange for significant amounts of bribery, or in setting up the foreign partner to get ripped off for know-how, etc., etc. so that the project in issue can be part of “uri nara; uri technology”, etc. The loser is not only the foreign mark, but Uncle Kim and Aunt Min whose investment, pension and/or tax money is usually being plundered by the unholy combine of corrupt Korean private business and public officialdom.
If there’s a real money trail that needs follwoing here, it’s not the apparently insubtantial one to Schatten, but the the one that leads to the big, stinking estuary of ROKGOV funding for Hwang and all the rivulets running out of it. If it investigated that, the Korean press would be providing a genuine public service.
“These scientists have the agenda. They want to disprove God by claiming they can make any living organism they want.”Hummm, Baduk, you sound like a Science-fiction novel here. That sort of statement is pure melodrama. It would be safer to say that there is a business interest in cloning stem cells for the potential medical advancements it could bring, not to mention the $$$.
I seriously doubt that any scientist engaged in this line of work wishes to “disprove” God.
So is this correct?
Korean media does a little story on Mr. Hwang and all the suspicions point to wrong doings, Korean media is reporting the truth. The same spotlight also turns to Mr.Schatten and it’s Korean media reporting lies? Can we believe the Korean media or not?
As someone points out, fraud happens occasionally in the science field. A friend of mine (mathematician at UC Berkeley) told me about a recent case at LBL, where a scientist faked a new nuclear particle (which doesnt exist). The scientist got fired, and rumor has it that he couldnt get a job so he now works at McDonalds. According to my friend, one minor (?) thing that Dr. Hwang did (fabricating photos) would be a sufficient reason for him to get fired and be dismissed in the science for the rest of his life.
Although this kind of fraud is not unusual, Dr. Hwangs case is somehow unprecedented. No scientists (who got caught and were sacked) were treated as much as Dr. Hwang was treated by his own people. Koreans wouldnt feel so betrayed or disappointed if he didnt claim himself as national hero. How much Koreans tax money went to his guys pocket! Its a shame.
Dr. Hwang is no more a star in Korea, but Korea still has other heroes or role models such as hanryu stars and world pro-sports players like Park Ji-Sung and Lee Young Pyo (sarcasm on please)!
While I have every wish for stem cell research to progress I would not be wishing luck to this particular ‘researcher’ (Hwang) as he has already managed to play with people’s hopes in order to glorify himself and make $. This type of research in particular requires total honesty and openesss in order to eventually treat/cure those people who need it most. Good Luck, Stephen Edwards.
Hi there!..
I think both Gerry Schatten and W.S. Hwang are equally responsible for this “horrible mess” in Science to be remembered as great shocks, like those of 9/11 or Tsunami. Although, I do not want to completely disbelieve Dr.Hwang when he says “he’s been back-bitten”!!.. Well, Dr. Schatten and his collegues at PDC should be a “little” (underword) ashamed of “using” the Korean scientist for “stealing” his technique and then backing off when he got into trouble. Why did Dr. Schatten in the first place accept any authorship if he had any doubts regarding Dr. Hwang’s Research??… That’s the “moral/ethical issue”!!..
Now that Schatten is himself “caught” of pressurizing the Korean scientist for a Directorship position at Stem Cell Hub and incurring illegal funding from Dr. Hwang, he should’nt be spared at any cost. It will be all the more dangerous for the future of science to continue growing honestly or ethically, if anything like that exists….Hurts my very soul, being a scientist myself!
Wildwind,
Where did you get your information on Dr. Schatten? What technique did he steal? What do you mean that Schatten was caught pressuring Hwang for a directorship? What illegal funding did Schatten receive? How do you know that Schatten had doubts about Hwang’s research when he accepted authorship?
For a scientist, you seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions.
Hi,
Well, It’s all exposed on the internet and I for one is pretty shocked!.. Having worked closely with GS and his collegues, I know some of the facts as well!.. It’s pretty disturbing and shocking!.. I’m a scientist too and I know that science does not always works the way it is ought to.
WildWind, did you ever talk with Gerald Schatten about his connection to the big UCI egg scandal?
Meteorologists should apply for grants to study the shitstorms that surround this guy.
Hi kushibo,
Was too innnocent then to ask him about it.. But now I do know just too many facts about him and his team, which makes me “sick at heart”!!.. The statement that he used while severing his ties from Dr. Hwang!..
You are very right, they should apply for grants to get hold of such guys and the “shitstorms” that surround ‘em!.. I like the term “shitstorms”!!
Now that “Snuppy” the first cloned dog has been proven to be the real cloned dog, I’m sure Gerry Schatten will be again attracted to say that he has a “Korean Cousin”…oops!.. “Colonial Cousin” that is! (He called Dr. Hwang as his brother before all this happened!!)..
Let’s just wait and watch the drama!!
Wildwind,
I notice you did not answer any of my questions, except to say, “It’s all exposed on the Internet,” and that you know some of the facts,”having worked closely with GS and his collegues.” Well, where is it on the Internet? And I would appreciate it if you could show me something that is not Korean-media based. By the way, if you worked with “GS” and his colleagues and know some of the facts, why are you so shocked? Shock implies that you were surprised by the events, not that you knew “some of the facts.” If you know some of facts, why don’t you share them with us?
Wildwind, when I read your claims about “GS,” for some reason, I think of “BS.”
“I’m a scientist too…” Hey, that’s cool. I’m the Pope.
Hi Gerry,
You seem to be a big fan of your Scientist name-bro “Gerry”!.. Well, not only was all this on the common search links for GS (=BS!!… If you so like!) on Google, but also in some Pitts Newspapers. It is shocking to me since I thought that all that is shown, is true.. That’s how we work in a scientific environment. We try and trust each other ! But, sorry to say that this trust is not only betrayed but also denied to the level that these “so-called top-notch scientists” won’t be trusted by anyone ever again ! I will have no more comments on this.. Do go ahead and search.. you surely will find more expositions on this guy as already stated by kushibo!
Hey Michael,
Good that you’re a Pope!.. Then you have the moral responsibility towards doing something about this crisis…
For your info Gerry Bevers: Chk this out!…just one example.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/.....4stem.html
(NON-KOREAN SITE AND PEOPLE!!)
Read on from “My main emotion right now is anger, not at Hwang, it is at Gerry Schatten,” said Loring, of the Burnham Institute.
For Mr. Gerry Bevers: another example from TIME archive, which I had saved for you.
http://www.time.com/time/healt.....44,00.html
Read about your favorite “GS” from: 5th para in the article: Hwang’s academic affair….
More for you Mr. Bevers, if you somehow did’nt find the “BS” Stuff on Dr.”GS”:
(NON-KOREAN/PURE AMERICAN)
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/.....11230.html
And this one’s for keepsakes purpose:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....10003.html
Wildwind, Gerry Schatten and W.S. Hwang are not “equally responsible for this horrible mess”. Hwang and Hwang alone was at the helm of what is now shown to be a deliberate, systematic corruption inclusive of fabricated scientific research papers, payoffs, threats, lies, forged financial documents and government ties. His record of fabrications goes back to the 1990s, and he has used high connections to bilk the government of millions of dollars.
As for Schatten, whatever his ethical issues may be, they are separate and side-issues. But there are several problems with your statement that “Now that Schatten is himself ‘caught’ of pressurizing the Korean scientist for a Directorship position at Stem Cell Hub and incurring illegal funding from Dr. Hwang, he should’nt be spared at any cost.”
First, I don’t believe Scahtten has actually been caught pressuring Hwang for anything, and this remains an allegation; and second, even if true, there appears to be no evidence that this is illegal or unethical. As for sparing him, you need not worry. US criminal law is a lot more stringent than Korean on these points and,if guilty of fraud, he will be subject to criminal prosecution, which is not the case with Hwang, who may get off lightly.
Also, contrary to your statement, to my knowledge, it has not been proven that Snuppy is in fact a real cloned dog. I have only seen a statement by Seoul University citing internal research and crediting “complicated tests” which frankly does not constitute proof in the arena of international science given Hwang’s long-standing record as a hoaxter and pseudoscientist. It smacks of an SNU cover-up and further analysis by non-interested international researchers would be required for the claim to carry any international scientific credibility.
Finally, Hwang is just one among many con men guilty of using science for his own personal gain and cannot be ultimately deemed responsible for the debacle. PD Notebook did a special report showing the such a wide-ranging scandle could not occur in the US given grant funding review by scientists and the open culture in research facilities.
The real shame and guilt is the government’s and their media lap dogs, and on a larger scale, Korean society for its racist attitude of promoting the genetic supremecy of Korea. This attitude even filters down to such institutions as the Chogae Chong Buddhist Order, which violated Buddhist precepts in advocating attachment to the Korean nationality.
The real issues Korean science faces is society’s pre-scientific mindset, including racism, isolationism, weak analytical thinking and lack of a fundamental understanding of the scientific method. Our science typically works backwards from a given conclusion to its justification by ignoring any evidence that might be to the contrary. A true Buddhist non-attachment would be in order, and if we could finally put our jingoism aside, we might actually have a chance in becoming a playing in scientific research. Personally, I remain skeptical.
Thanks Mizar5.. for the insight and info on this issue!.. But my point is that all those who take undue credit and back out when the real trouble comes, should not be quoted as “non-guilty”. As you must have also noticed kushibo’s comments, Gerry Schatten is “no babe in the woods” either ! His records also indicate a criminal investigation against him at UCI, some 10 years ago.
“Thanks Mizar5.. for the insight and info on this issue!.. But my point is that all those who take undue credit and back out when the real trouble comes, should not be quoted as “non-guilty”. ”
Wildwind, your statement is undeniably true of Hwang himself, but still mere allogation with regard to Schatten. According to U.S. law, Schatten is technically therefore “non-guilty” until proven otherwise. The question of whether Hwang needs to be co-credited for Schattten’s patent which in fact preceeds Hwangs’s is yet undetermined and will soon be brought to light by the governing bodies in a dispassionate and proper manner.
But this is by no means a clear-cut case; separate process patents are routinely sought and granted even when identical results are obtained but through different processes.
If Schatten is found guilty of improperly failing to credit Hwang, this does not mean Schatten stole the technology. It would be an ethical lapse, though not be nearly as eggregious those committed by Hwang.
If Schatten is guilty of taking credit for processes developed by Hwang, this would be still not be in the same category of systematically conspiring to manufacture bogus results, bilking the government and private corporate donars of millions of dollars, making payoffs and threats, coercing women to submit to dangerous donar procedures, manipulating politicians and giving false assurances to desperate patients.
Most important, Schatten’s conduct remains entirely irrelevant as a target for Korean criticism. Not only does he fall strictly under the juristiction of the US authorities, but he is in no way accountable for Hwang’s eggregious misdeeds. Allegations against him cannot absolve Hwang, the government, the media, SNU, the lab culture, and the public of their culpability in this sordid affair.
Finally, if Schatten is in fact the shyster he is alleged to be, the blame still falls entirely on Hwang himself for choosing such a collaborator.
We would do ourselves a great service to stop displacing blame on irrelevant parties as a way of excusing our own misdeeds. Enough excuses, enough scapegoating, red herrings and rationalizations.
It’s time in a mature and responsible manner to own up to clear ethical lapses that have victomized not just Korea but done a tremendous disservice to the state of international stem cell research.
I am just a mature Science person, not a Korean or an American.. So in my opinion what I commented on Schatten is because of also knowing him closely enough.. I repeat, He’s not innocent!..He’s a very smart chap with high intellect. I am therefore also sorry for him but not in a way that he could be excused of any wrongdoing!
Mizar5,
Note this article and see for yourself if Gerry Schatten should be entirely considered innocent with all the blame on Hwang:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....GD4GF1.DTL
Read on..
Especially at the end of the article..
Scientists and journal publishers are also reassessing the wisdom of allowing a researcher….
Hmm…”Scientists and journal publishers are also reassessing the wisdom of allowing a researcher to append his or her name to a report as a “senior author” without having been an integral participant in the research.” Not exactly the smoking gun you’re looking for is it, Wildwind?
Don’t get me wrong here. I’m not defending Schatten. Certainly If he knowingly collaborated with Hwang in the deception and was not himself duped, then he should share in the blame. Perhaps you have some inside dirt on him that you’d like to share.
Well.. spilling the dirt here and there won’t help anyone!.. The idea is that Gerry should himself gracefully accept his misdoings and be responsible for it!
Lotsa dirt has already has been spilled… Most of the outrage is also due to the “Stealing of Patents/Ideas” by Gerry Schatten though!..
http://ipbiz.blogspot.com/2006.....ideas.html
Could’nt believe my eyes on this one.. but now it’s all out in public!
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/.....010706.pdf
Check it out!!!
And there’s more to add..to this crap!…
I think this can go on forever!…
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/.....12326.html
According to the Pitt academic review panel, “Schatten declined Hwang’s offer to him of a position as co-author of the 2004 paper. Rather than Schatten trying to steal credit for himself for Hwang’s work, Hwang was actively courting Schatten to win respectability for his fraudulent research. Schatten’s role was strictly to act as a liason to the international scientific community.
It seems he became enamored of and ensnared by Hwang and finally agreed to an offer to co-author the 2005 paper. It was, however, largely a long-distance collaboration. Stem cell pioneer John Gearhart says that was a mistake and asserts that Hwang must have duped the University of Pittsberg with some sort of false information according to since “University of Pittsburgh had to have given permission for Jerry to enter into that collaboration.”
An Ann Arbor cell cell researcher is quoted as commenting that “If someone is trying to be duplicitous, it is really easy to be misled.”
So the indications right now are that the University of Pittsberg was duped and that Schatten either showed bad judgement or the University of Pittsberg did, but there is no indication of fraud on their part.
The patent Schatten is seeking is for a “similar procedure to Hwang’s” so it is not yet clear whether Hwang deserves to be credited or not.
Right now I would still charaterize Schatten’s role as questionable, hut not fraudulent.
Another notable scientists at the National Human Genome Research Institute will continue independent testing of Snuppy. Let’s also wait to see what they have to say.
Did you also not read or feel that Schatten should have also not taken an authorship in 2005 paper??.. Had he done so, he would have easily taken “the high moral ground road” what he wants to follow now… Too late!!! It seems!
“Did you also not read or feel that Schatten should have also not taken an authorship in 2005 paper??”
It’s hard to say without studying the process closely, since Schatten does run his own research facility and could have originated these processes entirely on his own. But I think the question of greater importance than who to blame for what is whether the patents of either researcher of any real value, given Hwang’s record of falsified claims.
Mizar5,
So you were writing all of this without studying the process closely!.. Well, I have studied this quite closely and am sure of what I write!.. So in my view, I still stand unshaken on the issue of Schatten’s weird involvement i.e., The undue credit and popularity that he got out of the papers initially and then ran away from the whole thing because he saw the trouble coming!!.. How irresponsible of him.. being a known and highly regarded scientist!!
Thought it would be important to add what the American media have published on this and to support my argument!
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-.....88896.html
More to add…
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=2275
And the list is evergrowing!
Yes,this article does shed some light on the subject.
“Hwang filed an application in Korea in 2003, describing the innovations that he says allowed him to produce a stem-cell line from a cloned human embryo. It follows the structure of his discredited 2004 paper in Science.”
“Schatten’s application, filed in the United States in April 2004, is based on his monkey work, and identifies a method of overcoming a problem he says is encountered with transfer of cell nuclei in primates. It also covers a range of possible uses, including therapies developed from stem cells produced using particular techniques.”
“It is not clear how these claims will pan out. Both are based at least in part on previously established methods, says Margaret Sampson, a patent attorney at Vinson & Elkins in Austin, Texas. And other groups have applied for patents on cloning technologies. ‘Neither Schatten nor Hwang will probably be the undisputed holders of all rights to the technology. It’s more likely that different groups will hold patents on different methods of making and using stem cells,’ she says.”
How is it Schatten is claimed to have “stollen a copyright from Hwang” when it was in fact for a process Hwang was not involved in - the transfer of cell nuclei in primates?
There have been various articles in favor of the fact that Gerry and Hwang filed several copyright/patent applications which they claimas their intellectual property. But Dr. Schatten and his collegues clearly got the technology from Hwnag lab and had also employed some people who belonged to Hwang lab to help them in their monkey cloning business as well. So I guess, when they failed to even mention or give credit to Dr.Hwang for the techniques in their filed patents, it is purely an ethical misbehaviour, more than even scientific. Hope you got my point!
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The plot thickens
Like I said before, there’s still a lot more to the Hwang story - here’s the latest twist:Prof. Gerald Schatten from the University of Pittsburgh requested funds totaling US$200,000 from Korean cloning expert Prof. Hwang Woo-suk last September, one month