TYPEPAD NOTE: Typepad apparently experienced an issue while conducting maintenance yesterday–the photos are currently being restored, and from what I can tell, the comments are not working. Hopefully, everything will be resolved sometime this weekend, although when exactly is anyone’s guess.
UPDATE 11: Just about every paper on the planet has stories on the controversy over at Google News.
UPDATE 10: First reports from Hwang’s press conference coming in. Basically, Hwang said he has the technology to produce patient-tailored stem cells, and that he did in fact produce them, but due to mishaps afterwards, the cells were contaminated. So he does’t have them now. But he can reproduce them in 10 days. He also said that when he submitted his SCIENCE piece, he had 11 live stem cells. Yonhap to have more in the coming minutes and hours.
And as Kimbob pointed out in the comments, we may be forced to admit–a second time, no less–that commentor Baduk was right. From the NYT:
Although the new disclosures are being presented as a blow to Korean science, they can also be seen as a triumph for a cadre of well-trained young Koreans for whom it became almost a pastime to turn up one flaw after another in his work. All or almost all the criticisms that eventually brought him down were first posted on Web sites used by young Korean scientists, although vigorous reporting by MBC television and the online newspaper Pressian also played a leading role.
Nice to see Pressian get a shoutout from the NYT, as much as I dislike the little Marxist-Leninists.
UPDATE 9: GI Korea adds his thoughts. And Katolik Shinja–being as he is, a Katolik shinja–has quite a bit to say about this incident and stem cell research in general over at his blog.
UPDATE 8: It’s all speculation, of course, but the JoongAng Ilbo (Korean) discusses some of the possible explanations for the fabrications/errors (assuming the claims are correct). Among them: a desire to beat the U.S. and U.K. to become a world stem cell hub, miscommunication within Hwang’s team, ambitious young researchers who may have fudged data (and lied to Hwang about it), and that stem cells could have been damaged in storage due to mistakes or accidents, but because of the "military-like" atmosphere of Hwang’s team, those responsible were afraid to tell the boss for fear of causing delays.
UPDATE 7: Hwang’s press conference is apparently set for 2:00 p.m.
UPDATE 6: Well, Yonhap seems to appreciate the (tragic) irony:
UPDATE 5: Kim Hyeong-tae, the lawyer for Hwang’s team, told CBS News Radar on Friday morning that Dr. Roh’s claims–namely, that there weren’t any stem cells–may be true. As for why Hwang didn’t say so first, Kim said that because of the severe psychological shock, the scientist was unable to make a sound judgment on the matter.
Hwang’s dazed and confused!
As for why Hwang may have fabricated the SCIENCE thesis, Kim speculated that under an atmosphere placing "the national interest" above learning the truth, Hwang had grown obsessed with producing results.
UPDATE 4: John Rennie posts on the developing story over at Scientific American’s blog, and asks some very, very good questions concerning the possible fallout. Glenn McGee of the American Journal of Bioethics Blog also discusses the mess.
UPDATE 3: Foreign Dispatches is discussing the fall of a Korean idol–some interesting things being said in his comments section as well.
UPDATE 2: Hwang spoke with the Chosun Ilbo; read it on your own, but to make a long story short, he admitted there were problems, namely with the photos, but there were indeed stem cells (he didn’t say how many). The Dong-A, meanwhile, quoted a high school friend of Hwang who visited the scientist in the hospital Thursday night as saying that Hwang said Roh’s claim the stem cells were fake was ridiculous, and that if he were given just three months, he could replicate the results. About claims made by Roh that nine of the 11 stem cells were fake, he said only Roh’s Miz Medi Clinic would know, as they were the ones with the stem cell cultivation technology (as opposed to Hwang, who handled the stem cell extraction process).
I don’t know what to make of all of this. We’re going to have to wait some more to see who is bullshitting about what. At any rate, Hwang is scheduled to hold a press conference this morning.
UPDATE: Reuters is on the story now.
I’m dying to know whether Hwang himself will make a public confession.
Oh, and Kushibo contributes his thoughts (and asks a number of important questions as well). Just a sample:
This is a harsh, harsh lesson, but a necessary one,
apparently. People wanted Dr. Hwang’s results to be real for reasons of
scientific advancement (that was certainly the case with me) and also
to boost national stature. So strong was the second reason with some
people that any attempt to reasonably question the data was met with
hostility. Witness how MBC’s "PD Report" was vilified. (And while it’s
true that they may have used unethical means to put together their
report, they deserve kudos for going against the grain and trying to
get to the bottom of a story so few others were willing to).Korea as a collective entity needs to learn the importance of
crossing one’s t’s and dotting one’s i’s, and double-checking and even
triple-checking when necessary. ???? ???? won’t fly in the modern world.
More as the news rolls in…
ORIGINAL POST: Oh. My. Fucking. God.
Reports are coming in that Hwang has confessed that his thesis in SCIENCE magazine was based on falsified data–see the Oranckay for what has to be the first report on this in English (his new banner, however, is just plain mean). Todd Thacker–the man, myth and certainly the legend–is already busy doing the English report over at OhMyNews International–he’s already got quite a bit up, and expect it to grow as more news comes in.
Call your journalist friends–it appears the shit is about to hit the fan.
176 Comments
Thanks, Marmot, for the report. I feel embarassed for Korea.
One possible positive result: This might be a teachable moment for Koreans.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Gee, shocking but not altogether surprising.
“This might be a teachable moment for Koreans.”
Well, maybe momentarily; they’ve been backpeddling from spirit of reform engendered (imposed?) as a result of the ‘97 financial crisis pretty steadily.
I feel more than embarassed–this is a fucking disaster. Not only is this going to seriously let down everyone who believed in Hwang–and we’re talking about most of the ROK–and bring disgrace to the nation–on several levels–but it also forces me to admit that Baduk was right all along.
I’ve been reading through all the news reports all throughout the last couple of hours. The shit has already hit the fan in Korea. The news is going out to all over the world right now. Korea brand value will take a nose dive. It wouldn’t be as so embarassing if Korea wasn’t so busy bragging about this ‘breakthrough’ the last couple of years. I was sick of reading the braggings on Korean newspapers, along with the obsessive reports of the “Korean Wave”. The word ‘modesty’ is often lost in the translations. I guess this takes MBC off the hook, but only partly. They too need to answer for their unethicial behaviours.
This might be a teachable moment for Koreans.
That’s exactly what I was going to say. Soul-searching. So much soul-searching.
“Baduk was right all along.”
Right. But only because it was a lucky guess based on similiar cases of accusation of fraud against the Dolly the Sheep clone scientist, Dr.Wilmut - several years back.
Oh. My. F***. God.
Marmot–Please refrain from using blasphemy. It’s a sin, and offensive to believers in God. I would appreciate it if you would edit out the f*** word.
To quote Will Smith again: “Somehow, ‘I told you so’ just doesn’t get it…”
Yes, Dolly is a fraud too. People in other countries are not as smart as or not savvy enough as Koreans to know that. Koreans, especially, young Korean scientists brought this out. Not possible in some other countries, including European nations. Wilmut still got away with a beaker of blood which he said contained Dolly’s mother’s blood. And, people just took his word. No verification! He killed off Dolly when telomere paper indicated that the cloned animal must age faster.
Coming back to Hwang, it looks as if Kim SunJong, the scientist who worked with the Mizmedi hospital and then with Hwang’s group and now in Schatten’s Pittsburg hospital is a sort of “fix-up” guy.
There are some altered lab data(photos) coming out, not only on Hwang’s group but on Mizmedi hospital as well. Looks as if the Mizmedi guys do a lot of lying. And, Kim is in the middle of some of their dirty deeds.
Hwang knew this. And, used Kim to make up data for his group as well. Listen to this. Allegedly(by Rho Sungil, the president of the Mizmedi hospital) Hwang told Kim to “come back by 27th of December and MAKE stem cells. Or, I will report you to the police”.
Talk about threats! Hwang is some character. Just like a mob boss, he knew when to apply “heat”.
This does not surprise me at all.
Why should all of Korea be disgraced because of the actions of one man? Futhermore, why is ‘notorious anti Korean shakuhachi’ the only one that thinks this doesnt reflect on Koreans at all?
Perhaps Korea needs more peer review. This could turn out to be a positive impetus for better ethics.
Fellow researcher-cum-whistelblower Roh Sung Il revealed that six of the 11 stem cells detailed in the paper were contaminated by fungus from a nearby dog farm and had died, leading him to suspect the remaining five stem cells were not cloned but were just duplicates of donor cells.
Although Dr. Lee Wang Jae, associate dean of the research department at Seoul National University Medical School is now quoted as saying, ‘Dr. Hwang’s team has never cloned stem cells’, yet this does appear to leave a glimmer of an excuse for the “Korea #1″ idiots to hide behind.
Will the next argument be “Hwang really did accomplish this greatest breakthrough in the history of humanity, but fate conspired to destroy his successful results…Had it not been for MBC and the evil greedy, envious Dr. Schatten, and the foreign scientific community, he would have moved ahead and succeeded at even greater accomplishments. It was an international conspiracy…”
This is only really a bad thing for all the chest beating nationalists. Nobody else really cares all that much, do they? If I were a Korean, I wouldn’t feel an ounce of guilt, shame, or pity for the schmuck. After all, he got himself in the mess. It’s only a problem if you staked your vision of Korea on his claims, which too many people did.
I’m proud if a Canadian does something great, but there are plenty of failures, too, and I don’t feel in the least bit ashamed of those. For example I wasn’t in the least embarrassed over the Ben Johnson doping scandal at the Olympics years back. Whatever, he was just an idiot, not my problem. Same here with Hwang.
so what about the dog snuppy? is it a fake too?
This is going to make korea look bad, but not because of the actions of one man (hwang) but because of the actions of the general public to anything that seemed a threat (pd notebook).
“Shame Shame Shame” (little quote for all the aussies out there)
?! ?????? ??…
??? ? ??? ? ?????
kimbob: I’ve been reading through all the news reports all throughout the last couple of hours. The shit has already hit the fan in Korea. The news is going out to all over the world right now. Korea brand value will take a nose dive.
I wouldn’t get too worked up. Samsung is still Samsung. Hyundai is still Hyundai (which may be a good or bad thing, depending on your opinion about Hyundai). It doubtful that breakthroughs in biology have any impact on computer, electronics or car purchasing decisions. It’s generally accepted that Korean products are second-tier, but almost first-tier, and rising fast. Stuff like this is just noise.
The evil deeds were committed by Korean media. Hwang was just a scientist. But, he had political connection and knew how to use reporters.
Every other day, there was an article on Hwang. What he did and what he said…. and how his discoveries will feed Koreans for generations to come.
In other words, newspapers built him up to be a savior. Like Lee Sunshin, the legendary general. They told average readers that Hwang will bring untold wealth to Korea. Like Santa Claus. No article came out which suggested anything bad about Hwang, not even one. Deification!
Hwang was a mere scientist with somewhat important discovery. Now, we find that Hwang lied about everything.
Mi-hwa–Please refrain from using sanctimony. It’s a sin, and offensive to believers in God. I would appreciate it if you would edit out your entire post.
Thank you.
Mi-hyun
XXX wrote me: “So how does this prove Hwang is a ‘charlatan’, as you’ve put it? That article says there should be a ‘probe’, it doesn’t say they are absoultely sure he’s a ‘charlatan’. Doesn’t this make you just as bad as those Koreans (whom you condemn) that jump to conclusions.”
Well, XXX, if you’re reading this, my criticism from the outset was that we Koreans are so crazy to prove ourselves the superior ones that we will latch on to even a charlatan who comes along giving us a sense of self esteem with which to bloat our starved egos. I never said Hwang’s research was phony per se.
But I strongly suspected it based on the ludicrous things he said about chopsticks and the wounded way in which he reacted to criticism, something to the effect of “why should a scientist have to answer to society?”, and the retarded faked illness - a trick guilty perpetrators commonly resort to here in Korea.
In those respects he was an obvious charlatan and it wouldn’t be out of character for such a person to also fake his research.
I was also critical of the scapegoating of MBC. By the way, all the nonsence about threats is nothing more than red herrings. They dared to investigate and were condemned because the truth holds little value for many of us.
Unfortunately the people who most need to hear these points will never get them. Theyre too busy hearing only what they want to hear.
There remain 3 barriers to Korean progress in science: excessive pride, tradition-bound thinking and international isolation:
1- Science requires the humility and patience to put the ego aside and follow its dictates,taking failure with success. Koreans desparately need to learn that greatness comes from humility, not arrogance. And while we’re busy branding Americans and everybody else arrogant, we are merely reading our own insecurities into things - Americans in my experience are a lot less arrogant than we Koreans. We truly have to learn to shut up and put up.
2- We do not yet reason scientifically. We accept that electric fans cause death based on heresay rather than hard evidence.
3- We must learn to cooperate with other international minds and stop trying to make everything into a national treasure. We focus so much on ourselves that rather than attempt to understand the world we tend to judge it - mostly unfairly - on our own terms. And science just doesn’t work this way.
Before the voices or non-reason begin to attack me for my anti-our nationalism, let me say this: a real patriot has the guts to fix what’s wrong, not to pretend it isn’t there.
I wrote some more thoughts here.
As someone asked, just how much of Hwang’s research is now discredited? Is Snuppy a fake? (Baduk, I guess, would say so, since he also thinks Dolly is a fake). Was the research in 2004 also fake? How much was fake?
This is a hurt Korea needs to have. I have a good deal of confidence that this hit, like others, will lead to some quality change.
shakuhachi:”Why should all of Korea be disgraced because of the actions of one man? Futhermore, why is ‘notorious anti Korean shakuhachi’ the only one that thinks this doesnt reflect on Koreans at all?”
I can’t say why shakuhachi alone thinks this way, but I can answer why all of Korea should be disgraced because of the actions of one man.
It’s because while no man is an island, every man is a peninsula.
“I can’t say why shakuhachi alone thinks this way, but I can answer why all of Korea should be disgraced because of the actions of one man.”
You need to lighten up a bit. It’s not the end of the world. As Kushibo says, this should be used as a wake up call to the Korean society in general. If the future is so hopeless for Korea, then we would have seen the country turn out to be another Haiti by now.
The answer to Shakuhachi’s question is that there was a serious bandwagon effect going on here, to the point that any questioning was met with hostility. The loud-mouth drum-beaters may not have been everyone or even necessarily a majority, but a lot of other people stood silent and let it happen.
So maybe not EVERYone deserves to be smeared with this, but it will take nearly everyone to get things right again.
You need to lighten up a bit. It’s not the end of the world. As Kushibo says, this should be used as a wake up call to the Korean society in general. If the future is so hopeless for Korea, then we would have seen the country turn out to be another Haiti by now.
As I said, this should be used as a wake-up call, but that will only come to pass if people DON’T lighten up.
Dr. Hwang is going to be a whipping boy for a long, long time. Quoting Martha Stewart: it’s a good thing.
? ??? ??..
?? ?? ???
?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??..
I’ve never been particularly interested in this story, but is anyone else struck by the fact that we have another case of life imitating South Park?
Episode 302, Spontaneous Combustion–it’s the one where South Park’s only scientist, Randy Marsh, “discovers” that residents are spontaneously combusting because they’re holding their farts. He briefly becomes a hero, but becomes a public pariah overnight when all the farting causes global warming.
Lessons learned? I think you guys are pitying Koreans.
Kushibo and others suggest that Koreans have learned lessons in the past–most recently during the “IMF” crisis. I recall that foreigners were to blame, and the same pre-1997 arrogant attitude (dexterity et. al) has been conspicuous of late.
Korea is driven by the avoidance of shame. Everyone will go about face-saving maneuvers soon. Things like “Foreign jealousy” and “Schatten is the next Ohno” have already shown up in recent Korean newspapers.
it’s a little scary when none of the posts so far have had any serious “Korea bashing,” but someone has to come along and threaten to kill everyone.
either wait until things get bad before you make threats, or use the goofy smile face
at the end of your post so people know that you’re joking, although not really well.
that out of the way, i wonder what the magazine is going to do about all of this. whatever system it had in place to screen out the bad science needs a close second look.
Alethia speaks true. Hear her.
Alethia speaks true. Hear her.
“Him,” but thanks…
I was never a big suporter of hwang’s work–it seems to me hat he was taking advantage of Korea’s absence of ethical debate to get ahead in the race to be “first.”
He is not alone in the quest for glory among academics, and unfortunately, I am not surprised that this has all come out. It hits me in the gut again and again how the brilliant and enterprising minds of this country are repeatedly undermined by their own dishonesty.
I have admired President Roh for his attempts to keep his hands clean, although we see evidence that such a leader is easily rendered ineffective in a social atmosphere where “the ends justifies the means.”
I do hope it is a lesson that will ignite some humility and soul searching among Korea’s academics, politicians, and businesspeople. I think it will more reinforce the lesson that is already deeply ingrained in the Korean public: “Don’t get caught!”
Kushibo and others suggest that Koreans have learned lessons in the past–most recently during the “IMF” crisis. I recall that foreigners were to blame, and the same pre-1997 arrogant attitude (dexterity et. al) has been conspicuous of late.
One of the stages of grief is denial. Here and in 1997, there was no shortage of that. But that was not the end of the story: People who knew better made sure what was broke got fixed. If I’m wrong about that, then all around me things would be very different. My cautious optimism is grounded in experience.
Korea is driven by the avoidance of shame.
That’s right. And it often is dragged to the brink because of it. But that same avoidance of shame, when squarely faced with it, is to pick up the pieces and avoid it again in the future.
Everyone will go about face-saving maneuvers soon. Things like “Foreign jealousy” and “Schatten is the next Ohno” have already shown up in recent Korean newspapers.
Yesterday’s news. Today’s news is that Hwang admits they were right (and obviously, it wasn’t all media outlets saying that).
Some people will do some face-saving stuff, I’m sure. But the effect will be on future research, whose authors have now witnessed a harsh object lesson, that ???? doesn’t fly and it’s of the highest order of importance to make ensure one’s i’s and t’s are dotted and crossed, in triplicate.
I think it will more reinforce the lesson that is already deeply ingrained in the Korean public: “Don’t get caught!”
Well, it might also reinforce the lesson that if you don’t want to get caught, then don’t publish.
“but that will only come to pass if people DON’T lighten up.”
OK wrong phrase to use. Better words would have been “the future of Korea isn’t so hopeless. It’s still changing for the better - although the country still needs to resolve some serious problems with ethics and rule of law”.
“One of the stages of grief is denial. Here and in 1997, there was no shortage of that.”
One good example. At first, it was the “IMF crisis”. Now you rarely hear that phrase anymore. It’s now widely referred to as the “Financial Crisis”.
This is an objective journal that reports the same news: http://www.physorg.com/news9085.html
A lesson learnt about ethics and honor, time to move on … Although it will be tougher/more rigorous for other Korean scientists to present themselves before their international peers in future.
Somebody stop the presses…..I can’t keep up.
I would take a different tangent from Kushibo…
…Korea doesn’t need to cross its Ts
It needs to learn to be truly proud and happy with itself today….
….they really need to take true pride in the Miracle of the Han rather than one that has a massive inferiority complex under it.
Be happy with thy self…..
You have accomplished much.
Korean society and individual Koreans, bask in your glory and enjoy life more right here and right now.
You will certainly eat a lot less crap….
Tonight, I got on an elevator at my college when four girls who were excited about something. As we were going up in the elevation, one of the girls said, “Don’t worry! I have already written all the answers on the desk.” Another answered, “Yes, but we still have to do the other one.” Just then, we reached the seven floor, and the girls rushed out of the elevator giggling and saying, “Hurry, hurry.” As the elevator door closed, I realized that the girls were talking about cheating on their final exam. This is finals week for our freshmen students at my school.
I think Hwang is the product of a system that turns a blind eye to cheating in the classroom, that excuses lying and coverup, that is more interested in ceremony than in substance, and that puts more value on national pride than truth and integrity.
I believe that officials in the Korean government and professors at Seoul National University were preparing to cover up Hwang’s lies when the situation just got too out of hand to cover up, especially when foreign scientists started asking to join the investigation team.
MBC deserves kudos, Kushibo? Why? Because they suddenly cancelled the program that would have included an admission by a researcher that Hwang asked him to fabricate data? Was the information any less believable because they had tricked him into confessing it? MBC deserves NO “kudos,” Kushibo, because MBC caved in to whatever pressure was being put on them to be patriotic and bury the story.
I think the Seoul National University (SNU) investigation panel was a sham to buy time and to hide the evidence against Korea’s national hero.
Usinkorea makes some good points in his above comment.
I’ve been in Korea for nearly five years now–not long enough to have become an expert on the country, to be sure, but long enough to have observed patterns.
With possible exceptions (having to add this caveat for logic’s sake alone), I’ve found that lying is endemic here.
A simple case in point. I’m working a contract which gives me several days of vacation every several weeks in exchange for working Saturdays. But the school director feels uncomfortable having to admit to students that I won’t be teaching for a week on end (”Confucianist work ethic”–another topic?), and so he routinely asks me to lie about my reasons for being absent. I’ve been asked to tell my students that my mother is dying or something similar just prior to each break.
At a previous job, I was offered a monthly paycheck which fell short of what I was owed each and every single month for more than a year. Initially, I wrote off the errors in calculation as secretarial incompetence. Finally, after months of goodwill on my part, it came time for me to face reality. The smiling Korean secretaries, so seemingly sweet and innocent and pleasant, were routinely attempting to cheat me.
I’m sorry to be generalizing from a couple of personal anecdotes in this way: sorry not because my logic might be called in question, but because the prevalence of lying and cheating in Korea IS a problem which needs to be addressed.
The sooner it starts, the better.
“Marmot–Please refrain from using blasphemy. It’s a sin, and offensive to believers in God. I would appreciate it if you would edit out the f*** word.”
My new favorite troll!
“I think Hwang…,” “I believe that…,” is a poor basis for your accusations(generalizations). You see something in the elevator and you suddenly understand, hallelujah, the secret behind all Koreans! While it seems that (waiting for much more cool headed news) s*** has hit the fan for Dr. Hwang, that still does not give you the right to dismiss MBC and smear the SNU investigation panel and Koreans overall. #1. I’ve seen my share of cheaters in American schools and I’m sure others have seen ‘em in their country. Its wrong but not limited to Korea.
BRIC(A BBS for the Korean Biological Information Center) played the central role in unearthing the key parts that were faulty with Dr. Hwang’s paper. Young Korean scientists and students were the ones checking, rechecking, and discussing the paper on the online forum, while it should have been the distinguished magazine “Science” that should have caught the faults. This young scientists and future scientists knew that by unearthing Dr. Hwang’s paper as a sham, their future crediblity also has just turned much more difficult to attain, yet they still strove for the truth. Yes it was the Korean system that produced this ugly incident, but it was also that Korean system you despise, that was willing to dig in and air it.
#2. Kudos to MBC. Did you actually see the show Gerry? It was well structured and well edited. It was a quality job that needed a lot of time and research. MBC did not cave in and bury the story. It was definitely not a rush job. If in the end their accusation proves to be true, I must say that I’ve seen true journalism at work.
#3. Do you have proof that the SNU investigation panel was a sham to buy time and hide evidence? Some of Dr. Hwang’s closest associates were ignorant of some very important facts themselves, how could the SNU panel know? Did you actually see the news? The SNU panel was almost not formed untile the president of SNU persuaded the professors trying to duck the responsiblity. (I remember you in some previous post stating the presidnet of SNU as old and backwards? Don’t remember your exact words. Do you realize he is your age and that he is considered one of the most progressive presidents that SNU has had? I guess not since you just think and believe based on your prejudices.) On what hard proof do you base the “SNU panel is a sham” accusation other than your prejudice.
If this whole incidents comes out to be true or even partly true it is definitely a hard hit for the credibility of the Korean science community and its morale. In the long term I would hope that the Korean science community will mature to the next level due to this incident (if it doesn’t shrivel up and revert to the dark ages for a while). Its not pleasent seeing someone gloating “I told you so”, flinging prejudiced accusations with no constructive merit.
Don’t misunderstand me, as yankabroad has stated, indeed lying and cheating is still a problem in Korea, especially since it is often the norm not the exception. But that does not give you the right to accuse any Korean, that catches your whim, as a lier and cheater. Now that’s prejudice and speculation.
Juan,
Good point. I am happy that you mentioned BRIC. If some British organization did what BRIC did in Korea, they would have gotten to the truth about Wilmut long time ago. Then, there would have been no Hwang.
But, as I wrote before, people in England are not savvy with technology. Nor they want to challenge established facts as these young Koreans would.
It is a great day for Koreans. We have done something, which the westerners cannot dare to or do not have capacity of. BRIC should feel proud. I am proud of Korea!
“I am proud of Korea!”
baduk, you must be nuts, especially today.
Kimbob,
Hwang is just one man. He was an ass who got propped up by media.
However, in BRIC, there were hundred young Korean scientists getting at the facts. Hundreds. Courageous and honest Koreans! They did not stop even when Hwang’s crowd threaten them and call them names. And, how about young professors at Seoul National University demanding the university president to look into the matter.
Several hundreds of young Koreans wanted facts, not establish dogma. This is a lot more than British people who are still protecting Wilmut and Dolly myth. Koreans are more honest than the British. Korean system of “checks-and-balances” works better than that of British blueblood club system. That is all I am saying.
One of the outrageous things about Dr. Hwang is that he wasted millions of dollars on fake science, when it could have been used for real science. All that money and effort should have been spent on finding a cure for the bird flu.
How will Korea save face in this one? Something tells me the old towel draped over the head trick won’t work.
Baduk is right about the young Korean scientists who asked for verification. They deserve praise.
Young people lacking seniority but challenging their seniors to be accountable.
That’s a good sign.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
I’m genuinely sad about this news. Bad science happens everywhere, people cheat everywhere, but too many Koreans in gov’t, business and now apparently the sciences have an end justifies the means rationale. If you want to be one of the players on the international stage, you do the long, hard work of preparation, with no guarantees. You don’t just walk onstage with a cloned (?) dog in tow. In many countries Hwang would be jailed for fraud, and he really should be punished for this, because it involves taxpayer money.
The whole thing that surprises me is that baduk was right, and most of you were wrong (this is the first time I have commented on the issue - I am very tight lipped when it comes to stuff I dont know about).
Baduk,
Where were your courageous, young scientists when the lies started back in May 2004? Didn’t they only start to speak up when the lie started to crumble, along with Korean scientific credibility? Wasn’t their motivation for speaking up to try to save some face by exposing it before the foreigners did? Wasn’t everything going just fine until that Pittsburg professor opened his big mouth?
So is the face-saving strategy going to be to point to Korea’s courageous young scientists and say, “See, you can trust our ‘young’ scientists.” Of course, these courageous young scientists did not start acting very courageous until after a researcher admitted fabricating the data for Hwang.
Juan,
MBC caved in on December 6 when they apologized and cancelled the broadcast exposing the fabrication of Hwang’s data. If the MBC PD Notebook program was so “well structured and well edited,” why did they forsake the chance to redeem themselves by showing it? And why did their informant suddenly change her story? It stinks of patriotic coverup to me.
Maybe you could refresh my memory because I do not remember saying anything about the Seoul National University (SNU) president. I do not even know who he is. HOwever, you do bring up an interesting point. Why were the SNU professors trying to avoid serving on the committee? Could it be that they were afraid of becoming implicated in a coverup?
Michael,
Right now it seems like Hwang is being positioned to take the full rap, but I doubt if he will be punished, at least not severely, because he knows too much about the government coverup that I am speculating about. I think Hwang will be judged to be a lone gunman and given a slap on the wrist, allowing all the others involved to claim ignorance.
Gerry, you’re probably right on all counts. Roh Sung-il’s fingerpointing at Hwang looks like a sign the rats are jumping off the sinking ship. SNU can always plead ignorance, the gov’t likewise. All Hwang has to do is chill until Buddha’s birthday when he and the politicians, err, other felons get pardoned.
I’m more pessimistic than Kushibo about “lessons learned” here. If the gov’t announces a permanent oversight committee in the Science Ministry, with foreign scientists involved, in the aftermath of this I’ll be happily surprised. But the rule of law seems to be very difficult for the Korean gov’t to effectuate in many areas.
FOR SALE
World Stem Cell Hub
Due to a change in circumstances owner no longer has a use for it.
Hardly used, as new
No reserve price.
Offers can be made via the Psych Dept of SNU hospital.
“Where were your courageous, young scientists when the lies started back in May 2004″
As far as I understand it from reading the Korean news, the lie (or the new breakthrough stem cell) was closely guarded by Hwang and couple of other scientists. Nobody had actually seen the ‘cells’ other then Hwang and company. What fooled everyone was that Hwang was successful convincing Science and Nature, making headlines around the world. And most everybody (impressed and filled with national pride) just presumed that it was all true. To be fair to those young scientists who worked in Hwang’s team, they probably had no ideal their work was all for not.
“Wasn’t everything going just fine until that Pittsburg professor opened his big mouth?”
So what about Shatten? Where is he in all this? Did he know about this, is he part of the fraud? This doesn’t look good on him either because it was MBC who first broke the story that Hwang’s research was a fraud. Up to that point, Shatten stood by the research as legitimate (minus Hwang’s ethics violation). It was MBC PD Diary who first contacted Shatten back in October while the Korean informer started ratting. Maybe Shatten collaborated with Hwang and decided that things were getting too hot, so he decided to bail himself out.
But then again Shatten is probably totally innocent, and he was fooled just as everyone else was. I believe he is innocent. He specifically said back in May, that he had no part in the research that was done in Korea. He said that he was there to serve as advisor and a translator. It’s too bad he had to get caught up in all this. Then again, he should have done a more thorough job of verifying before helping Hwang get published by Science.
Baduk,
While you are absolutely correct to praise the young Korean scientists who questioned Hwangs results, I once again find myself having to ask the question “on what do you base your assertion that Wilmut et al. “faked” their research concerning Dolly?”
While it is right to question research, it is equally wrong to declare that an eminent professional is a fraud and a liar based on nothing more than your own opinion. Where is your evidence?
Also, as someone who trained in biological sciences at a British university, I find it mildly offensive to hear you refer to British scientists as a “British blueblood club system”. That is simply nowhere near the truth and simply shows your ignorance of the way science is conducted and overseen in the UK.
Also Gerry, the younger scientists you mentioned not coming forth earlier with their criticisms apparently did post them online on sites the scientists frequented–I haven’t seen whether or not the criticisms were anonymous, but given that Hwang was being touted as a national hero, and Korean culture in general, they probably would have been ignored regardless.
Here are what I know about Dolly.
1) When Dolly was born, the mother was dead and gone.
2) Wilmut says he kept the mother’s blood in a beaker in the referigerator.
3) He sent the blood and the dolly’s blood to the Scottish scientist, the Nobel lauriate one year later!
4) Prof. Walter Gilbert of Havard university, the Nobel lauriate with gene sequencing, lamented “There is almost no evidence offered in the paper that the cells were from the mammary gland of an adult sheep,”..”It is kind of shocking that only a year later are we getting the tests done to see if Dolly’s origins are as presented,” said Dr. David Housman, a biologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. (http://www.junkscience.com/news/wilmut3.htm)
4) When this Scottish scientist guaranteed that they, two sets of DNA, are the same, no opposition had no more to say. However, Wilmut could have easily lied about the content of the beaker. He could also have sent the DNA samples from Dolly. Also, nobody checked on the Scottish Nobel lauriate. It is not gentlemanly to ask the verification in some scientific circles, as was with Hwang’s SNU crowd.
5) Then some researchers in America found that telomeres are like a clock. Old organisms have shorter telomeres. They asked Wilmut about Dolly. He replied that he observed shorter telomeres. However, right after this, he killed off Dolly saying that some disease is going around. Nobody actually observed Dolly’s aging process other than Wilmut.
6) He then sold the right to the research to PPL therapeutics and now everything about Dolly is sealed. The record Wilmut kept, the technique, the Dolly remains, everything is hidden from the public scrutiny.
Lies. All f***ing lies.
Also…Marmot, I’m fairly certain Yonhap released the story about Hwang in English long before Oranckay or anyone else (except maybe Reuters).
There are many “cloning” papers published since Wilmut. However, the nuclear transfer from a fully developed organism is very rare. Many cloning papers have to with splitting germinated(spermed) eggs into many offsprings to produce copies. Others are from disreputable laboratories located in countries like China, Chile, Russia, etc.
Actually, only case other than Hwang I know is one group in Texas A&M that claimed to have cloned the cat. They, however, set up a company right away and sealed their technique as proprietary. ( I think they spermed!) Their clone did not look like mother at all. At least, Hwang did a good job in Snuppy.
Wilmut visited Hwang’s lab several times and he must felt happy that his lies have produced ways to heal human diseases. Well, Mr. Wilmut, you are not the only one who can make up the data!
Looks like MBC is back in vogue. Their viewership just jumped 100%.
http://imnews.imbc.com/news/cu....._1497.html
Looks like the Korean netizen opinon has turned 180 degrees the opposite way. MBC PD Diary is now the hero for their ‘courage’.
http://imnews.imbc.com/news/cu....._1497.html
I felt a certain resonance with Baduk’s comments and it seems he was right all along.
It has been and is still all about ETHICS and the lack of such in almost every facet of business in Korea. This is not the complaint of the sour expatriate but *is* the way things are. This must change for the sake of Korea.
Some interesting netizen comments from ohmynews:
“Wherever you go, don’t say you attend SNU.”
http://www.ohmynews.com/reader.....sort_name=
“I’m sorry MBC, I was wrong”.
http://www.ohmynews.com/reader.....sort_name=
Kimbob–There’s still much to look into, and we really need to give Hwang a chance to explain. That being said, this very well could be the journalistic equivalent of the Incheon Landing for MBC.
regarding comments that
dolly was a fake clone, in the interest of reasoned debate could you cite your sources?
It would be a huge surprise if the Roh gov’t did anything at all concrete to address scientific ethics in Korea, even though Korean taxpayers’ money was involved in the Hwang fiasco.
However, the global bad publicity might shame the gov’t into doing something, since it’s all about image here.
There is also mitochondrial DNAs,which nobody knows exactly what they do. Unless these DNAs are absolute garbages that do nothing, an egg donor’s Mitochondrial DNAs cannot match that of the mother.
Wilmut’s nuclear transfer technique cannot produce an exact copy because
1. Telomere length is different.
2. Mitochondrial DNAs are not same.
Even with these two different conditions and who know what else(chemical constituents of the egg body), if a copy can be produced then it would be odd, indeed. Wilmut spermed and we will know that in about twenty years later, when some briliant biologist can prove that nuclear transfer cloning is theoretically not possible.
It is strange Baduk, how in a search of the mainstream media and scientific literature I cannot turn up a single account of any scientist claiming that Professor Wilmut faked dolly.
Only Baduk seems to be confident enough to make this assertion. It must be nice to have a certain knowledge that vastly more qualified men don’t seem to have.
As for the Texas cats not looking like each other, this is due to x-chromosome redundancy and is perfectly normal, as I have explained here before.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that an animal can be cloned by SCNT, a technique pioneered with frogs in the early 20th century?
It should also be noted that Professor Wilmut has been calling for Hwang to release his research for peer scrutiny since last wednesday, before this story broke. To call someone a liar and a fraud, in writing, is called libel, and you can be sued for it.
Baduk, you didn’t inherit any mitochondrial DNA from your father. Does that mean he is not your father?
To say noone knows what mitochondrial DNA does is not strictly true. Mitochondrial DNA encodes 37 genes out of over 30,000. These genes are involved with celular respiration, i.e. the production of energy in the form of ATP.
The fact that Dolly had short telomeres makes perfect sense because the DNA was transfered from an older animal. In fact it is strong evidence to support Dolly’s creation by SCNT.
This shit is nothing compared to George Bush and Weapons of Mass Destruction. It’s like comparing a messed up thesis to mass murder. Man…that shit was just embarrassing as hell.
Scietific American has some interesting comments on its blog:
How much of a colossal black eye will this scandal give to embryonic stem cell work in general? I commented on that point previously, back when it looked like Hwang’s headaches all centered on the research ethics. But outright fraud carries this to a whole new level. Frankly, I’ve been surprised that some of the usually vociferous opponents of embryonic stem cell research haven’t been making more of a fuss about the Hwang affair all along. I kept waiting to hear them argue that the ethical laxity of the Korean lab only proved that the moral of judgment of stem cell researchers couldn’t be trusted–that no matter what promises the scientists made to uphold human dignity in their work, they would surely start committing atrocities once they were allowed to operate freely. (My hunch is that the clear willingness of so many in the stem cell community to push for strong codes of scientific ethics has blunted this attack so far.) Something tells me that those kinds of criticisms will become much more common shortly.
How will Korea respond? Hwang has been a national hero over the past couple of years. The country had designed a stamp to celebrate stem cell research, for pete’s sake! This may be a crushing blow for many Korean nationals.
http://blog.sciam.com/index.ph.....1&pb=1
That last one was the understatement of the year….
Ddongjip,
“I cannot turn up a single account of any scientist claiming that Professor Wilmut faked dolly.” - Nobody can get any evidence; they are sealed.
“To call someone a liar and a fraud, in writing, is called libel, and you can be sued for it.” - So, do it. You are not any better than most Koreans who wrote the same thing to BRIC.
“you didn’t inherit any mitochondrial DNA from your father. Does that mean he is not your father?” - No, but my clone has different mitochondrial DNA than it is not exact copy.
“Mitochondrial DNA encodes 37 genes out of over 30,000. These genes are involved with celular respiration, i.e. the production of energy in the form of ATP.” - Are you 100% sure that they do not contribute to the developmental(turning on and off of genes)aspect of growth? Is the gene map complete on them? Do we know everything they do? The answer is No.
“Dolly had short telomeres makes perfect sense” - Can you tell me who other than Wilmut have actually seen this in microscope? Who else? Is this a way to do a science?
These discussions and questions occurred on BRIC about Hwang. Koreans are smarter than you. You probably are told not to question the work by Wilmut by your professors, who have much to gain by covering up for Wilmut.
From the chosun:
A scandal that started with ethical lapses in the egg procurement process has now spread to the very heart of the groundbreaking stem cell research Hwang and his team have been conducting. If Roh’s statement turns out to be true, it would deal a fatal blow to the Korean bioengineering world’s credibility, to say nothing of Hwang’s stellar reputation.
i love the fact they still assert he has a “stellar reputation” even after the ethical issues of the past few weeks.
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....60001.html
Orange-jok–Not only does it not compare with “Bush and the Weapons of Mass Destruction,” but it also has nothing to do with it.
Koreans don’t have to worry about their image abroad on this one. Except for the scientific community, the average person outside of Korea is not paying any attention to this story. It’s huge news inside Korea, just a tiny, tiny story outside of Korea.
Many of these “cloning” researches are done by Honor system. Nobody checks on anybody else’s work. Hwang was stupid in making photoshop copies of the same cell, which was easy to catch.
However, others in the field have no “checks-and-balances”. it is easy to get publication and parade aroung. Hwang got through in Science magazine with highest honors and published in the front page. How many have done the same cheating (sperm to produce a “clone” and switch on DNA samples)?
Hwang only got caught by diligent young scientists in Korea. Wilmut and others are still out there, getting fat on their lies.
Shenzhen, it’s probably as you say that Koreans don’t generally have to worry about their image overseas, but the scientific community is tied to the political community, i.e., gov’t, and funding decisions.
Some countries might be reluctant to let their scientists work with Korean scientists.
“Koreans are smarter than you.”
No.
Michael,
Good point.
“Kimbob–There’s still much to look into, and we really need to give Hwang a chance to explain. ”
I think the picture is 99% clear now. According to Hwang’s scientist colleague, Roh, he met with Hwang in his hospital bed. Hwang virtually admitted that this was a fake and that Hwang started to go off ihcoherently. That’s when Roh decided to go public and hold a press conference.
“How much of a colossal black eye will this scandal give to embryonic stem cell work in general?”
A big black mark, thanks to Hwang.
It’s too early, the story is just going out to the world now. Wait till the stem cell opponents get a hold of this. They’ll use it for the maximum.
I hope this example get publicized all over the world. And, biologists worldwide should stop this nonsense about not replicating their results, not keeping records, not letting anybody share their techniques(many times these are sealed as “proprietary”), and not allowing anyone to verify their results.
Just stop these lies in the name of protecting discovery! Starting from Wilmut, somebody has to examine notes, purchasing records, lab workers(it was a labworker who broke the story to MBC), evidence of discovery, especially DNA gel. Up to now, the journals just publish in good faith and newspapers just report the journals.
Nobody checks on biologists. Nobody! Nobody gets a sample of DNA(this can be switched as well, as in Hwang’s case) and run gels, which only takes a couple of hours to do. Schatten did not and refuse to do so even after the news broke.
In other disciplines, like physics and chemistry, there can be no “emperor with clothes” as in biology. They do science by evidence, not by news. Biologists have to be carefully watched. They often lie!
This is your best Guy Thursday yet. I don’t know what I would do if I saw his bulge.
Does anyone else think Schatten is getting a free pass on this? The guy signed up to Hwang’s paper without a proper review of his work in the hopes some of the stardust would settle on him. He aided and abetted the farce, even if he’s an innocent dupe.
Wedge, you’re supposed to wait for the jingoistic whackos to start targetting the “foreigner” so everyone can cry, “Xenophobe!”
Now you’ve ruined everything.
Does anyone else think Schatten is getting a free pass on this?
If everything turns out to be true–and Hwang’s press conference is scheduled for 2:00 p.m.–then I can’t see how Schatten gets out of this. Yeah, maybe he was an innocent dupe, but somehow I don’t think so. I smell a rat trying to get off a sinking ship.
Wow, this is an interesting place. I got here from Wiki, hoping to find what foreigners think about this issue. I’ll check back frequently.
Schatten of course smelled a rat long time ago, but he kept quite. Why rock the boat? This is not only Schatten; every biologists play the same game. After all, Hwang and Wilmut are like a Sputnik; it will only bring more money to their direction. They suspect, yes they do, deep down but they all keep quite.
Old Woody Allen movie, Manhattan, ends with a line, “My brother thinks he is a chicken. But, we don’t take him to a psychatrist to cure him. Because we need eggs!”.
Why rock the boat?
But young Korean scientists did. And, I am proud. Very proud.
Ddongjip and Dogbert,
If Wilmut was an Indonesian, would you make the statements you are making? Let’s not bring “r”-word into this discussion. I know you like to make this into “r”-situation and trash Koreans, but this “scientist fudging data” thing happens all over the world. The US, England, Australia, Germany, Japan(I heard there is a big one going on at pretigeous Tokyo university, another biology case)…
“Wedge, you’re supposed to wait for the jingoistic whackos to start targetting the “foreigner” so everyone can cry, “Xenophobe!”
Now you’ve ruined everything.”
Schatten is certainly culpable, but there’s a BIG difference between his glory-seeking induced negligence and the gross scientific fraud that Hwang and at least a significant number of his Korean colleagues have perpetrated. The Scientific American is comparing this episode to that of the Piltown Man.
The xenophobic special pleading based on a cynical moral equivocation between the the conduct of Schatten and the Koreans has been underway for some time and now will undoubtedly make sail. [Apparently with some added gusts of wind from some who confuse living in Seoul with Stockholm. ;))]
Oh, when I said Wiki, I meant Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia.
allow me to get this one out of the way first: i have not in fact met every korean. so i can’t speak about what each and every one of them is like.
however, i see my fair share of cheating, and think it’s worth while to point out that i’ve seen few koreans who cheat to get ahead. usually, it’s to keep up. i’ve talked with a lot of students who cheated to a B, but never an A. i’m guessing that the “culture” of cheating is different from country to country, each with its own set of morals and rules.
so, i have a feeling that the doctor was simply trying to buy some more time and money to actually get the science done. in a university setting, results get more funding. and funding is what he needed, he thought, to get the results.
as to the journalists who did the story, then pulled the story, then broadcast the story last night…i think you’d be hard pressed to find a journalist who had never heard about or had a story “spiked.” that’s actually the word for it. spiked. it’s when the editors/managers/lawyers come in and shut you down. it’s not a reflection on the journalists. well, actually, it is, but it reflects on them favorably. it means that they disturbed some important sh*t and had to be shut down by The Man.
as for the way they got the story, it’s a journalist’s