Some officials from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services have apparently been sent for retraining after asking Koreans applying for U.S. citizenship which side they’d take if Korea and the U.S. were to fight, reported the U.S. edition of the JoongAng Ilbo (and reprinted in Yonhap). Late last month, a Korean man in his 40s named Yun was asked during his citizenship interview which side he’d fight for if the United States and Korea ever went to war. He declined to give an answer, saying he had family in Korea. The interviewing officer then got tough, saying he had to answer or he would have no choice but to turn down Yun’s application for citizenship.
A spokeswoman for USCIS’s Western Region admitted that incidents such as that one had taken place, but presumed the "inappropriate language" was used due to difficulties in communicating with applicants with less-than-perfect English.
According to the report, the practice of USCIS interviewing officers asking citizenship candidates questions concerning their willingness to fight for their adoptive nation has caused some degree of discussion within the U.S. Korean community. In particular, most citizenship classes in LA’s Koreatown are apparently teaching the question to students, encouraging them to answer that they’d fight for the United States.
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93 Comments
That is stupid.
Maybe if North Korea were on the verge of invading the US, I might not think someone asking such a question should be fired, but really……what is the point?
“should not be fired.”
I wish someone had asked Robert Kim that question way back when. I applaud those who have the sense to ask it — it’s their PC supervisors who should be sent for “re-training”. Nevertheless, it is pointless as it’s easy enough to answer that question with a lie.
“For which side you would fight North or South Korea?”. That’s the question they should have made, right?
Having been present in Koreatown during the US v Korea group match during the World Cup in 2002, let me just say that the number of Korean-Americans rooting for the US was equivalent to the number that were also rooting for Japan to advance.
Zero.
It was a perfectly legitimate question.
The question is not new. When I got my citizenship thirty years ago, I was asked the similar question. It is one of “must answer” questions in the citizenship interview.
“Would you defend the US when it is under attack? Would you take arms when this country needs you?”
KoreanAmericans died in the 9/11 attack. Many KAs in the US forces in Iraq are dying as we speak. KAs are Americans. If you deny this, then no American is an American with the exception of 100% native Americans. We all came from a foreign country, or your father or your great-great…father did. Let’s not forget that.
This guy who answered “No” should be sent back to Korea. He has no idea what America is. He should not be an American citizen. Deport him back to Korea!
Robert Kim got a job where he could get his hands on important secret information. That is a far cry from letting someone in to the country to work at McDonalds or wherever.
If you poll every 18 year old graduating high school the question, “If North Korea gets in a war with South Korea and the US, who would you fight for -NK, the US, or nobody?” what percentage do you think would say they would avoid military service to fight for their country?
If North Korea were a much bigger direct threat to the US, I might think asking that question had some point.
Given the situation today, what point does it have?
Man, it didn’t take too long for the right-winged crackpots to comment on this one.
“Would you defend your adopted country?” is a far cry from “Would you take up arms against your relatives if we asked? Your green card depends upon you answering a certain way”
If you can’t do your job without letting your politics get in the way, then you should be retrained.
It is considered a legitimate question for naturalization in the US and in some other countries, too, is it not? If the problem was that “‘inappropriate language’ was used due to difficulties in communicating with applicants with less-than-perfect English,” doesn’t that mean there’s some more standard way of asking the same thing?
One must be careful when asking a Korean questions which, if answered truthfully, would cause the Korean to lose face. Furthermore, the concept of loyalty to a particular flag and set of ideals is quite abstract and difficult for the Korean mind to comprehend. Racial, familial, and selfish interests must always come first.
This is not about ‘letting politics get in the way,’ or about saving face, it is about whether or not a person who is trying to become a U.S. citizen is ready to accept responsibility along with rights and privileges of being an American.
Anytime anyone emigrates from nations X to nation Y, there is a possibility that, even if remote, nations X & Y will end up in a war. If Koreans - or those from ANY nation - cannot decide that they are going to be Americans and everything that entails, including military service (to include non-combat medical or other non-combat support services, for objectors in general) in a war with ANY nation, then they need not apply. It is that simple. If they can’t do that, they should not be here, period.
I also think the Korean couples/women coming to the U.S. with the express purpose of having their child be born U.S. citizens should be rejected at immigration and have their asses sent right back to wherever they came from. If they are going to live here, etc., fine. If it’s for getting their kids out of military service, or some sort of status symbol back in Korea, off they go, and don’t come back.
After going through all the horse sh*t with INS with my wife, I have zero sympathy for anyone trying to do an end-run around the rules or who is not ready to cowboy up and be prepared earn those rights, including paying taxes.
“Would you take up arms against your relatives if we asked? Your green card depends upon you answering a certain way”
Nope, not a green card. A US passport. That’s a bit different. Actually, it’s a lot different. A passport is not [sould not be?] a means to acquire residency in a country. That’s what green cards are for.
I actually agree somewhat with both sides. Loyalty is part of citizenship, but even the most loyal Korean-American would not want to take up arms against a country where s/he has living relatives and friends. Ditto for Mexican-Americans, Russian-Americans, Lebanese-Americans. Heck, I’m not an ethnic Korean or Chinese, and I wouldn’t want to fight against Korea or China, two countries where I spent part of my life and made many friends.
It’s worth mentioning that Korea also asks ethnic Koreans to choose one side or the other. A Korean-Chinese exchange student wrote a piece for the Yonsei University Chunchu called “What Side Are You On?” She complained about her fellow students always asking her questions like, “If Korea and China play against each other, who do you root for?” “Which country do you cheer for in the Olympics?” and yes, “If Korea and China fought a war, which side would you support?” Her response loud and clear was, “Look I was born in China, and I am a Chinese citizen.” I also remember reading in one of the Korean papers about a poll taken by Korean researchers asking loyalty questions to Korean-Americans, like “Which country do you root for in the Olympics?” and “If there were a war, who would you support?” along with sillier stuff like “Do you like Korean food or American food better?”
“Even the most loyal Korean-American would not want to take up arms against a country where s/he has living relatives and friends. Ditto for Mexican-Americans, Russian-Americans, Lebanese-Americans.”
Then they need not apply!
I have a whole slew of older relatives who enthusiastically volunteered for WWII despite the fact that they then, as we do now, have reams of family - first cousins, aunts and uncles and even brothers and sisters — in both Germany and Italy. After the war, it was discovered that the german and italian branches of the family also had men in some of the same large battlefields, so it’s possible they were even fighting one another. (This didn’t stop my grandmother from taking home-made ravioli to Italian POWS in camps on Belle Isle in the Detroit River).
If people don’t understand that America is about having the liberty to pursue happiness - and not just about having a bigger, better rice bowl — and that the cost of that liberty is taking up arms against America’s enemies, then the door should be firmly shut in their faces.
“I have zero sympathy for anyone trying to do an end-run around the rules”
I agree that US policy should be changed to exclude from automatic citizenship children born on American soil unless at least one parent is a citizen, but the fact is that the practice of people coming to the States to give birth to acquire citizenship us not an “end-run”. Because of America’s interest in the nineteenth century in supplementing the already explosive growth rate of the domestic population by actively encouraging immigration - in both cases in order to effect the acquisition and development of everything west of the alleghanies — the law was written and remains in such effect so as to make birth in the US an automatic ticket to citizenship. Even though the purpose of the law when enacted obviously was not to encourage the sort of benefit shopping that the Koreans are now so fond of - its purpose was to clarify the legal status of children of genuine immigrants who were themselves expected to remain permamnently resident in the US and become citizens vis-a-vis other sovereign jurisdictions who otherwise would have a claim on them would be considered Americans and defended as such by the US against any claims by the countries of origin of their parents - remember that we went to war with Britain and had a fairly long undeclared war with the Frogs about, among other things, the impressment of American merchant mariners by British men o’war and French naval vessels - what they’re doing is within the letter of the law. It’s also arguably within the spirit of the law, as it’s come to be understood - “Give me your ….”.
Again, though, the catch is that unlike Rat Bastard Robert Kim, you really do have to change your allegiance when pouch comes to shove.
it is about whether or not a person who is trying to become a U.S. citizen is ready to accept responsibility along with rights and privileges of being an American.
HAR HAR HAR!
“Would you be willing to take up arms against America’s enemies if we asked you to?”
“Why? Most native-born Americans wouldn’t. I also don’t plan to vote, but I do plan to cheat on my tax returns. I’M GOING NATIVE, BABY!”
Of course, what I like while reading these comments is that some of the posters supporting the rejection would scream bloody blue murder if the same was asked of them here.
Wow! Way to screw up the formatting.
HAR!
“Of course, what I like while reading these comments is that some of the posters supporting the rejection would scream bloody blue murder if the same was asked of them here.”
You’re assuming that they would want to be Korean citizens, as opposed to carpetbaggers.
Formatting is the least of your problems here, William.
I second Slim, and will add that much of what is wrong with America is embodied in that text - ‘will’ful disregard of the responsibilities that come with rights.
Sperwer,
You have left out the JapaneseAmericans, the sad story of WWII. Young JapaneseAmerican(then with no American citizenship because some racists here) volunteered and fought valiantly against Hitler’s German war machine. They were great soldiers. The casuality rate was around 50%. However, they had to be ferocious animals in the battlefield, to prove that they are loyal Americans.
The irony was that while they are fighting for America, their families were interned(imprisoned) in the US. These young Japanese fought for their’s and their children’s future in the US. They were true Americans.
KoreanAmericans are like these JAs. We will fight for the US even if the country goes to war with Korea. You can bet on that.
Baduk:
I didn’t mean to slight the accomplishments of the 442nd RCT, who not only distinguished themselves by their casaulty rate but also in being, I believe, the most decorated unit in American military history - at least before the recent practice of handing out merit badges to anyone who contributed in any way to a campaign. Because of a combination of racsim and prudence (mostly racism), however, they were not, as you know, called upon to fight in the Pacific against the Japanese. If they had been, I’m sure they would have done as well or better than they did in France and Italy. The whiners in this comment section, though, where whingeing about how unfair it would be to ask KAs to fight against Koreans, so the relevant response seemed to concern the experiences of European hyphenated Americans who were called upon and did fight without reservation against their former countrymen in Germany and Italy.
Answer is not surprising at all. Media showed nothing but the american soldiers harassing Koreans.
Such as, the incident when the U.S tank ran over girls(not sure of the casualty)and the driver didn’t even get imprisoned. The U.S Army knew,at the time of trial, that the soldiers inside have made fatal mistakes and should be treated much harsher than that. Many Koreans were very upset at the reasult. Not just that, few months ago, an American English tutor once wrote in his blog that ‘Korean girls are cheap. They shag with me for the only reason that I’m American.’ Well, I don’t think that’s very assuring to many young koreans that Americans are our friends.
I know this nationalistic trend among the adolescents had better be changed. Also, the young shouldn’t be irrational when it comes to International relation. But, one thing is true, Americans’ general condescending attitude towards Koreans is too much.
Remember Robert Kim’s comment? “Citizenship of convienence,” he said. In this 21st century, post-9/11 world does America really want to be a nation of “convienent citizens?” If you don’t want to fight for your country, get another country; after all there are plenty out there. If you want all the “privledges” of US citizenship then you must be ready to pay the “responsibilities.”
Things have come a long way since when I took the citizenship test. The only question that irked me was, “Are you a communist or have ever been member of the communist party?” I was thinking, “Is this the 1950’s?” and considered dealving into the philosophical question and challenging the interviewer about American ideals and values, but instead, I just said, “No.” And as a true anti-communist, another American was born that day. During my citizenship ceremoney, the INS officials made a very big speech and point that “we are not asking you to leave your former heritage and blah blah blah…” It was a very much of a holding hands, singing “we are the world” kind of event.
I think the question “are you willing to take up arms against your relatives for us?” is a legitimate question to ask, because suredly America wouldn’t be the sole country in the world to do so for security’s sake. But I do wonder, just how much of this is due to the post 9-11, terrorism, USA Patriot Act cultural milieu that is inspiring the INS to do this hardcore Homeland security bit when they didn’t do it before. It all seems a bit silly when anyone with a half a brain will just say, “yes” and move on. I mean come on. Would a prospective suicide bomber say, “No, I will never take up arms against a Mujahedeen, in fact I’ll take up arms against US Special forces.” Instead it seems like a sure way to weed out people who are at least honest or rational. But I guess, there’s a lot of political capital to be gained by posing these types of pointless questions to satisfy the hoi polloi who believe it is a good way to maintain America, America.
I also think it’s perfectly fair to ask, as long as it’s not targetted by a certain group. For example, I think it’s fair to ask a prospective Arab “will you ever become a suicide bomber against the United States” as long as they asked the same exact question to prospective immigrants from say South Korea or Great Britain or Zimbabwe. If they ask the same question about fighting one’s former homeland on an equal basis, then it appears pretty fair.
All this seem a little silly to me, because so many “blue blood” americans have Tory heritage. (but like so many Koreans I know, people only talk about their “patriotic” resistance fighter ancestors.) My german american friend’s grandfather refused to fight in WWII and was drafted against his will to fight in the pacific. (That’s what he said before he passed away at least.) He was one of those veterans who was literally bayonetted and shot several times and survived. This man, would go on to become a very model and ideal American, volunteering at the Dix Hills fire department. The man literally built his own home from grounds up. (and personally, that kind of “can-do” “rugged individuality” is what I always associate with “american values.”)
I think for me, being an “American” means a very different thing compared to a lot of the “nativists”. Since I am first generation with almost no history of practicing “traditional” American culture at my home–i.e. baking turkey, going on proms, going to baseball games, etc, my view on what it means to be an American is really an ideological definition. America for me, as a first generation sworn in American, has always held meaning in relation to my Korean identity as a reference point. The difference between a general attitudes and viewpoints in America and Korea is what really defines for me what America is like.
Compared to Korea, for example, Americans generally have very little fascist notions of “blood lineage.” So, Americans are more likely to adopt children. There are a thousand and one little difference here and there, you can pickout being bicultural.
It’s just kinda sad to see some Americans having the same exact “Korean” blood obsession though. Of couse, I live in New York, where things are pretty diverse.
Hell I might be inspired to strap on a C4 and charge at my “countrymen” the North Koreans if President Clinton inspired me to. (I doubt it, but that man can sure make me believe anything!) If President George W Bush asked me to do it, I might pack my bags and declare myself a Tory.
Personally, I don’t believe most Korean journalism, and it’s hard for me to believe that kind of question was posed based on my interview questions.
Young Korean,
Don’t judge all Americans by what somebody writes in a blog. After 9/11, I read the message boards at Daum and my university and was absolutely horrified by what I found. Almost all of the posters were unsympathetic - many praising Bin Laden or just generally bashing Americans. If I were to judge all Koreans by netizens’ responses to 9/11, I’d think Koreans were heartless and mean. Maybe the reason you think “Americans condescending attitude is too much” is because your media hypes up any stories that portray foreigners in a negative light.
Citizenship is a commitment, not a convenience, it’s true, but there is no valid way to test the loyalty of an applicant. Besides, why must a person choose one over the other? Canada and many European countries accept dual citizenship. They do not expect new citizens to renounce legal ties to their native countries. This makes sense. National identity is not either/or.
I question the whole notion of fighting for your country as the most important test of citizenship. Our military has not fought a defensive war since WWII.
Rather than asking, “Which side would you fight for?” I would simply paraphrase the famous line from JFK’s inaugural speech, “How can you make America a better place?”
Willie G: “Man, it didn’t take too long for the right-winged crackpots to comment on this one.”
..which does suggest the question: Why are English-language Internet forums overrun by angry right-wing American white guys? (and yes, for the most part they’re angry, they’re American, they’re white, and they’re guys)
Such as, the incident when the U.S tank ran over girls (not sure of the casualty) and the driver didn’t even get imprisoned. The U.S. Army knew, at the time of trial, that the soldiers inside have made fatal mistakes and should be treated much harsher than that.
I wonder how it is you are so sure of what the Army “knew”. Have you reviewed *any* of the evidence? I have — all of it, in fact. Any first-year American law student would recognize that as a matter of American criminal law, there is no basis to imprison the driver of the tank. The trial was a sham, to be sure, but not in the way you think: Sgts. Walker and Nino could not have been convicted on the basis of the evidence, and yet were put through the ordeal of a trial simply because it was deemed necessary to placate Korean public opinion.
There’s a more fundamental issue with Young Korean’s post than his appalling ignorance about how the law is supposed to work, generally does in the US and other Anglo-Saxon common law and other Western civil-law jurisidictions — and doesn’t in places like Korea and China.
That is how does a discussion of the propriety of questions about loyalty and willingess to defend the Constitution as prerequisites of American citizenship become about “american soldiers harrassing Koreans”, the “accident” and the stunning non-sequitur “But, one thing is true, Americans’ general condescending attitude towards Koreans is too much.”
Your feelings are hurt, because the US has the temerity to demand your allegiance before being granted the priviliges of citzenship?
Get over it!
I suggest first that you talk to the Korean-American I met once in the citizens’ services section of the American Embassy. He was born, raised and educated in America. Spoke no Korean. Had a wife, baby, house and a secure job in California. Came to Korea to pay his respects to his dying grandfather. Upon arrival, he was deprived of his American passport by Korean immigration and informed he was going into the Korean Army. Seems his grandfather or father had been foolish enough to put his name on the family register, so as far as Korea was concerned - in contravention of even the most coercive notions of citizenship in the Western World — now no longer effective — he was a Korean citizen and subject to conscription.
Millions of ethnic Americans, including many Korean-Americans, have successfully assimilated in the US and managed, if they actively chose to do so, to preserve important elements of the cultural heritage that were not incompatible with the American ethos.
If there are such incompatible elements that you so value that you can’t honestly pledge your allegiance to America, don’t.
But in that case, at least have the courage of your convictions and don’t whine about being excluded from the benefits of American citizenship and residence.
Baduk,
Are you a fellow 386er?
The question is, of course, legitimate. Afterall, anyone who wants to become a naturalized US citizen must take the following oath:
“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”
Robert Kim got a job where he could get his hands on important secret information. That is a far cry from letting someone in to the country to work at McDonalds or wherever.
Usinkorea, this is a rare case of me disagreeing with you. There is no telling what position this person might find himself in. There was no telling what position Robert Kim might find himself in either. I also wonder why the question should be considered offensive. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Koreans can be good people but bad citizens. The Koreans I know that have obtained Australian citizenship, or are in the process of doing so have no love or loyalty for the country at all. For them it is a better lifestyle and standard of living. Otherwise they think Korean, live Korean and buy Korean. These first generation Koreans will be of no assistance to Australia in a serious time of need. They are not going to be willing to die just because their adopted country provides them with a better paycheck (not to mention fighting other Koreans). If Koreans have a problem with this question, then in my opinion its a question that needs to be asked.
There was a Korean American Politician from Northwestern states who was interviewed by the Senate Foreign Relation Committee for his nomiation as Ambassdor to Seoul. He was asked the similar question like who would he fight for? He answered by saying that he will do whatever he can to prevent the war between his Birth country and his Adopted country. Well, he never got the job.
Sonagi,
I am 386 generation, but I spent my highschool, college and grad school days in the States. Therefore, I do not share 386 values; I admire pres Park’s legacy of prosperous Korea and I hate KimDaeJoong’s pro-North(Commie) attitude. I am also a true Christian and hoping Korea to turn into a Christian country. I support any Korean individual, group and movement which will achieve this goal. Like Rev. David(Yongi)Cho, Lee MyengBak and the New Right Movement. Korean chuch people will steer the country to the right direction. Today, despite cold weather, about 10,000 Korean Christians gathered and prayed for NKs.
Yet, I do support 386 generation’s effort to make Korea to be more economically fair country. For example, I applaude the recently-passed the law governing the private schools. And, I strongly support heavy taxation on realestate holdings and protecting the right of labor unions.
Virtual Wonderer,
It is nice that if we, KAs, can be positive on both countries. I do love both countries. However, we must prepare for the possibility of Korea joining up with China and threaten the US within a few years.
We must start thinking Korea as a foreign country and the US as our home. After all, KA children who are born in the States think this way. And, we should, too. We are no longer Koreans but we are Americans. We must act accordingly. We must see Robert Kim as a traitor. We must!
When we meet some racist Americans, we question our identity. However, these racists are of minority; the majority of American does view us as Americans. Or, they should.
So, my advice to any KA is that he should be pro-American to the max. He cannot bad mouth his people, fellow Americans. WE ARE AMERICANS!
About the possibility of Korea being the main enemy of the US, we must prepare. The best thing to do is to influence Koreans as much as we could, so that this bad and likely turn of event does not happen. However, with China becoming stronger everyday, we must prepare for this eventuality and must be willing to sever our ties if necessary and must be ready to KILL Koreans. Yes, We must!
Baduk,
I was discreetly inquiring about your age, not your political views. I’m not really a 386er either since I was born and raised in the States. I am a tweener or Generation Jones, but if you didn’t watch the Saturday morning lineup of Scooby Doo, Fat Albert, and Land of the Lost while munching on a bowl of Quisp, then you don’t qualify.
Is there any non-American among the commenters? I wonder what the commenters here would reply if some commenter from Japan was going, “the possiblity of US being the main enemy, we must prepare… blah blah blah… be ready to KILL Americans. Yes, We must!” Ditto for Chinese, Arabs, and even the Europeans. Baduk you’ve gone way outfield with the last comment. This comment section would have gone nuts if a Korean wrote “… be ready to Kill Americans. Yes, We must!” While I agree that loyalty to the country of your citizenship is very important, I believe that it is a serious and heart wrenching decision process for everyone involved in such situation. You are making it into a joke, some kind of crusade.
This comment section is not limited to Americans and though I am not a fan of being PC, you could be a little more tactful.
Juan,
I am not being a Banana. I am telling KAs younger than myself the wisdom I gained through the years. Some KAs are like some blacks in this regard. They think being pro-America is weak while being on the Korean side is somewhat manly.
Well, there may come a day when we can no longer afford to do that. And, we must prepare and prepare now! The decision is heart-wrenching, yes. Difficult, yes. But, it is the right thing to do.
Don’t worry about Koreans reading my article. They already know. The major Korean papers are innundated with the sentiment that they cannot trust foreigners, even KoreanAmericans. They know! It is only we,KAs, who still believe that we are Koreans. And, we will get hurt if we continue this way.
I am not saying that we,KAs, should see Korea as an enemy right now. It is not. However, we must prepare for that eventuality. Keeping this in the back of your mind will help you. And, protect you from being turned off by racist Koreans completely and start being anti-Korean like M.
Love both countries, but remember that you are an American. Your family is in America and your children will grow in the States and call themselves Americans.
I just saw the movie, Syriana. I guess the movie contain somewhat of anti-Americanism. But on the flip side, isn’t America a great nation? A nation willing to reveal its dark secrets. There are some fine Americans living in good ol’ USA. Truthful, honest and courageous. Tell me, which other country can make a expose film about its own government and show it in the national release? Canada? England? Australia? France? Name just one country which can do this.
I am glad to be an American and happy to let my children grow up in this wonderful country which is getting better every day. It has even overcome the racism.
Go USA!
Sonagi,
I grew up in Korea during 60’s but I saw the dubbed versions of Western TV shows -”I love Lucy”, “Green Hornet”,”Lost in Space”,”Avengers”(wasn’t Diana Riggs sexy? Haven’t seen anyone sexier! Chalize Theron comes close, but Diana was had “intellectual side” to her look as well.) If I am allowed to clone one woman, I will do her(is it a sin?).
“I am a tweener or Generation Jones”? You must explain these terms to me.
I think this comment section kind of mirrors the thought of Americans in general. Not only they do not think Koreans as friends, but as enemies. Is it possible that they will ask the same question to a German, a Canadian, a Italian, or a Japanese? Of course not.
KYLDT,
You must be a recent KA graduate, or a Korean. Let me tell you what I believe is going on about various nationalities.
Korean: 90% of Americans have faintest clue about Korea. One half of Americans will answer Korea is a country in Africa. Most Americans have zero knowledge about Korea. North Korea is sometimes mentioned in TV programs, but quickly forgotten. Korea just is not interesting.
German: Yes, the same question will be asked, along with the possible allegiance to Communism, especially if the candidate is from former East Germany.
Canadian: The same questions. Along with some family history(Some Americans fled to Canada to avoid draft during VietNam era).
Italian: The same questions along with any possible connection to the Mafioso. In some country club settings, Italians are still not regarded as Americans. Remember Godfather asking Michael Pacino about his “American” fiance? However, these Catholics(Irish, Polish and other Eastern Europeans) multiply fast. No condoms. And, eventually white people in America will be not AngloSexon but mixedCocasians. This plurality helps other races to mix into American society. The same race mixing can never be done in England, France or any other European nations of “pure” blood. Another reason that America is a good country for KAs.
Japan: The anti-Japanese sentiment was rampant in 80s and it is coming back recently due to Detroit layoffs. It is going to be even more so in coming years as Japan re-militarize. Koreans, as unkowns, have better chance than the Japanese to become America’s friend. Japan committed too many wrongs including killing Americans and not opening up its markets, and Americans have forgiven them only to an extend. This is why the US will not help Japan in coming China-Japan war.
Be positive about America, especially if you are a KA. This is your country!
Baduk,
A Tweener, or Generation Jones, is America’s equivalent of 386, born in the 60s and came of age in the 80s. We are sandwiched between the Baby Boomers and Generation X.
I can’t decide if you sound wackier when you exhort your fellow KAs to be ready to kill Koreans or when you expound your views on America’s multiracial population. As a native Michiganian still in the midwest, I don’t hear much Japan-bashing, and owners of foreign cars don’t get keyed anymore. It’s China and the Chinese who are the yellow peril.
“YoungKorean> ” But, one thing is true, Americans’ general condescending attitude towards Koreans is too much.”
What are you talking about? There is no such trend anywhere except in the Korean media. Americans have no general condescending attitude toward anyone. They have continuously been solicitous and sensitive toward we Koreans, especially in view of our inferiority complex.
Since the US side during the “tank incident” was never once properly reported by the Korean media, how can you honestly claim to know anything about what really happened?
In the light of recent “PD journalism”, it is now coming to light that the Korean media
generally starts with a forgone conclusion that they then justify by twisting the facts. This is precisely what happened - on a massive scale during the “tank incident.” In fact the US was extremely sensitive to Korea at the time and this was deliberately censored from all media reports.
As it turns out, everything the demonstrators were demanding from the US during that time were based on false information. SOFA was not unfair, GI crime against Koreans was neither high nor unpunished, apologies from high-ranking US officials were in fact given beginning the day after the incident, proper compensation was offered the victims, the trial was conducted with complete transparency and cooperation with the Korean authorities.
Just like PD journalism, you need to research the proper facts before expressing an opinion.
This is the very important question that any applicant must answer. Regardless of whether this guy is going to flip hamburgers or opening up a corner store, he could serve as a Korean agent, conducting espionage when war breaks out between US and Korea. Like Mainland Chinese, their thinking and behavior are based on their race and Confucianism. It says that tens of thousands of Mainland Chinese studying now in the US are engaging in the military and high-tech espionage. Besides, Korean have reputation to flip flop either side depending on which side they get more benefit. Of course, a few Korean might have integrity to stick to their adapted country.
Korean media, especially, almost all newspapers are trash. Their racist nationalism takes precedence over even-keeled reporting. In fact they will get excited so much first to instigate the public until the people start ugly behaviors such as cutting off their fingers, dosing gasoline over and setting fire themselves, committing “hara-keri” or anything goes.
In Korean “Democracy”, those who have opinions in favor of other nations as opposed to Korea will lose jobs and be socially massacred regardless of whether it’s worng or not. Their favorite pastime is bashing US and Japan.
Lawrence,
Contrary to what you are taught to believe, it will be a “whitebread” who will sell out America. Remember Oklahoma bombing?
Koreans also doctors, lawyers, actors, engineers and politicians. Korean kids are usually top of the class in high school and all major universities are teeming with KoreanAmerican scholars. Let’s not see the world in your burger-flipping mode.
Chin,
Cover-ups and Racism occurs in all nations. Media distortion as well. Korea does not have monopoly on these behaviors.
Your post will be more interesting if you provide some anecdotes instead of these generalism. Real-life anecdotes grabs attention.
The South Korean is taking side with Terrorist North Korean and they want US to get out of Korea and the South Korean President defended the North of having nuclear bombs when he came to US saying the North is developing the bombs for their self defense. The stance of the South is increasingly becoming on Chinese and North Korean side and against US. Throughout the Korean History, they were a slavery nation of the Chinese dynasties for over 1000 years and would brought tributes to the Chinese dynasties including thousands of young women every year. Their status in the Chinese empire was the lowest among the slavery nations of the dynasties so that the Korean kings had never been allowed to meet directly with the Chinese emperors. Even today, their mind set is very timid when dealing with Chinese for this reason.
baduk
You obviously don’t know Robert Kim’s case. Or it’s slipped your mind conveniently.
Clearly, Baduk didn’t follow Korean media scandal taken place of the Korean doctor of the stem cell research who had made unethical irregularity of acquiring human eggs from his female research assistants, which he initially denied and later admitted. Revelation was made by only single TV media, MBC. Reaction to the discovery was that every newspaper without any exception criticized and the newspapers fired up the public so much so that all 12 sponsorships were withdrawn from the TV commercials of the MBC TV program that broadcasted this finding. The public acted the same accusing the MBC. Before long, it came to question that why MBC scooped and ruined the doctor’s achievement rather than the doctor’s integrity. In Korea, the newspapers means lack of integrity and are more notorious than British tabloids. The MBC is still in the hot seat.
Wei,
Man, lighten up. Somehow, in your twisted logic, making fun of Korean history demeans Koreans and make you feel superior. That is a typical Asian logic.
In America, we like to see David beating Goliath. And, Americans do not dwell on the past, nor on the national origin. No American comes from “upper crust”. We are all from the bottom of the barrel and that is why Americans hopped on the ship heading for America in the first place! Knowing their ancestors were underdogs, Americans usually want to see an underdog winning. Korea is an underdog.
Chin,
Obviously you are new in this board. I have been writing against Hwang for almost two years. I am glad that finally some honest Koreans are going to nail his ass.
Today, finally the confession of Hwang’s underling came to the front page. He was told by Hwang to make “fabrications”! He made eleven cell pictures out of two cell lines he received. This is an outrage!
However, this investigative journalism brought my faith in Korea again. There are still some good and honest Koreans! This is in striking comparison with England, which still protects its liar, Dr. Wilmut.
Wilmut said that he kept the Dolly’s mother’s blood in a beaker. And, he sent the blood with Dolly blood for comparison. Who knows the beaker really contained the mother’s blood? They just trust Wilmut. WTF! This is not a way to do science.
When telomere papers came out, Wilmut’s team killed off Dolly in a hurry. They knew if Dolly lived to her fullest age, then everyone will know that they lied. So, they gave an excuse that some disease was going around and killed the only evidence.
Perfect crime! What do you expect from former pirates and drug dealers(sold opium to China)?
“This is why the US will not help Japan in coming China-Japan war.”
baduk.
If any conflict in near future in East Asia, it will be between US-Taiwan-Japan Democratic countries and Chinese-South & North-Koreans dictatorships. The South Korea President would like to be “Power Balancer” of the Asia. That means he doesn’t belong to the Western democracy.
baduk
I think you missed the point. It’s in my opinion that the MBC should be complemented. The newpapers and the public opinions are not.
Chin,
With this confession, MBC is coming back strong. Public sentiment or not, Hwang is dead as a doornail.
Lawrence,
I don’t think it is wise to go to war on the side of Japan. Let Japan and China fight it out. After all, it is a regional war. America can sell weapons to Japan and pay off national debt. And, freeze Chinese assets in the US when China stops the US ships carrying cargo. It is back to WWII, when the US did the cash-and-carry policy to make mucho money.
We will rescue Japan only after China start dropping nukes, but not before that. Why get involved in somebody else’s fight? There is no oil in Japan.
Japan holds about 50% of US national debt. China about 30%. British 15%. The rest of the world, 5%.
Let Japan and China fight each other. This is a very good news to the US. I am sure that some people in washington are working on this scenario. I am not saying that the US starts wars; these stupidos want to fight each other. The US just have to get out of the way and let these guys duke it out.
The war will only last 6 months at best. Both sides will realize they cannot win easily and call for peace. The US can be the mediator and the friend to both nations even after the war.
Why fight in somebody else’s war?
“Contrary to what you are taught to believe, it will be a “whitebread” who will sell out America. Remember Oklahoma bombing?”
Wrong.
That individual may have been misguided, but he was an American, fighting to have America become the sort of nation he felt it must be.
He did not do what he did because he felt a greater allegiance to his ethnicity or another country, like Robert Kim.
dogbert. reference “may have been misguided, etc…” You can see the clear logic of that by substituting Hitler, Stalin, and “German”, “Russian”, “Soviet Union”, or whatever. “May” have been “misguided”? Damn, that’s as soft a condemnation of Tim McVeigh as I’ve ever heard. I’d expect that from the zealots who used to start off their meetings with a moments silence for McVeigh at their pre-9/11 rallies. Tim McVeigh was a traitor to everything the U.S. stands for, and he deserved the death penalty. Hell, he was a lower form of slime than the “American Taliban”, whose treason was neither more nor less than that of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, et allia.
I’m all for asking every applicant for U.S. citizenship if they would be willing to bear arms against their former nation, as it is a legitimate question. But I am also well aware that the great majority of traitors to the United States have been native born Americans, starting with Benedict Arnold, and going at least as far as Aldrich Ames.
Lirelou, I have to disagree with you. Tim McVeigh was fighting against the US government (and was very, very misguided), but there is nothing to say that he was selling out the American people to foreign governments. There is also no comparing Robert Kim to Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, who simply found themselves on the wrong side of history. I am not American but I would be surprised if American textbooks described the confederate leaders as ‘traitors’.
Shakuhachi: You’re dead wrong about the Confederates. They were traitors and were named as such at the time and at the conclusion of the Civil War. However, any Confederate who subsequently swore allegiance to the US was pardoned in the interests of national reconciliation.
One minor footnote on traitors. Contrast American views of Benedict Arnold with that of MAJ Robert Rogers, or Ranger fame. Rogers let everyone know up front that he was loyal to his king, and a proud American British subject. And while he had no major role in the Revolution, he was forced to seek his fortune elsewhere once the war ended. Thus his former countrymen remember his contributions to both the French and Indian War, and to U.S. military tactics. In WWII, when American commandos were raised, the War Department opted to term them “Rangers” in honor of Rogers and his men. The name not only endures, but Rangers must learn Roger’s standing orders to his Rangers by heart.
i find it ironic that the expat demands that a korean immigrant promise to fight on behalf of america while he sits in seoul reading the latest news on iraq. pathetic.
I think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen Timothy Mcveigh described as a tragic hero.
baduk
You are very naive. It’s not Japan or Taiwan that Chinese is aiming at ultimately.
You obviously don’t understand why US needs to get involved in the Asian politics. If we don’t, we will see more 9/11 on a much bigger scale, probably, few nice and very warm nukes on our continent. You and I may even be practicing how to kowtow to a dictator.
Irony is that a 60 to 70 % of Korean in their 20 to 30’s don’t want to fight to defend their country when a war breaks out according to a national survey conducted not long ago. They would rather get a hell out of the country. The country is not that important to them contrary to what they say.
Nulji,
Very few, if any, of the American expats writing on this board (living in Korea, or any other country) give up their U.S. citizenship and emigrate. They are American citizens, who can vote and (depending on the situation) still pay taxes.
How many of the writers on this board have been to Iraq, Afghanistan, or been deployed/TDY/etc. to other remote locations? How many have served their time in the armed forces? How many have lived/worked (or are) overseas for months/years for the U.S. government? You have absolutely no idea. But freedom of speech is a wonderful thing; you can still write no matter what you don’t know.
The fact is that anyone from any nation has the right to an opinion on U.S. immigration policy, but the Americans here have a right in deciding how it actually turns out (via the polls). Those are American rights and there is nothing ironic about it.
“In fact they will get excited so much first to instigate the public until the people start ugly behaviors such as cutting off their fingers, dosing gasoline over and setting fire themselves, committing “hara-keri” or anything goes.” - chin
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....20023.html
Koreans cut off fingers and committ hari keri. What to Australians do? They beat up non white people, throw beer bottles, set fire to cars, and tell colored people to get the hell out of their country. This was after the non white people failed to answer that all important question “who would you fight for”. Of course, everyone is expected to answer they would fight for Australia, the same country where they get beat up and told to go home. Before someone accuses me of being an idiot, I’m just being sarcastic to the race baitors.
Lawrence,
I know, I know. China is a threat.
However, the war between China and Japan will start from a trivial matter. It could be from Chinese fishermen getting arrest, from a dispute over an island, or from the Japanese visit to Yasukuni temple. It will be from a trivial regional matter between these two morans.
Should the US side with Japan in this regional hegemony-duke-out? I don’t think so. Let them have a ball. Let these two nationalistic egos clash.
The US should just sit out(pull out of Japan to avoid getting involved) and watch the outcome. And, sell weapons and supplies to both countries, who will be willing buyers even at outrageous prices. Americans, including moi, will become very wealthy.
In fact, Japan may weaken China so much during the war that Russia may attack China. In that case, the US may have to defend China against this invasion. This is coming from anti-China person like me!
The world turns in very strange ways.
Re: Australia, it’s not a huge surprise, as the country had an official White Australia policy up to the early 70’s, and social and religious attitudes in conservative countries are slower to change than policies. I wouldn’t expect Afrikaaners to embrace their black conationals in their newfound equal citizenship either, so to expect much better even from Australia is probably still premature.
Funny how no one mentions how Lebanese immigrants run rampant raping white Australian women (who were systematically targeted). If Koreans can get in an uproar over an unfortunate traffic accident that saw the death of two girls, who can blame Australians for being a bit peeved when people they granted the right of entry repay them by becoming rapists and attacking lifeguards?
In regards to Timothy McVeigh. He was not a traitor, as is Robert Kim, but a mass murderer. Comparisons of the two are misguided.
Dogbert, not that I’m disagreeing with you, but do you have crime stats on the Lebanese immigrants committing rape in Australia?
I agree with you that Timothy McVeigh and Robert Kim are not to be compared. My only reservation about Robert Kim is that the guy seems to be trotted out every time Korean loyalty is mentioned, as if he is the archetype of all Korean-Americans.
Erm, technically, Doggie did make a comparison, and a favorable one, between Tim Mcveigh “an American, fighting to have America become the sort of nation he felt it must be,” and Robert Kim.
Erm, technically, Doggie did make a comparison, and a favorable one, between Tim Mcveigh “an American, fighting to have America become the sort of nation he felt it must be,” and Robert Kim.
My agreement was with his statement prior to mine. I hadn’t read all his comments.
Dogbert wrote this about Timothy McVeigh:He did not do what he did because he felt a greater allegiance to his ethnicity [emphasis kushibo's] or another country, like Robert Kim.I’m not so sure that’s true. Timothy McVeigh, judging from such actions as handing out copies of “The Turner Diaries,” would seem to be an avid supporter of anti-Semitic White supremacy.
So, if McVeigh were pro-white, was he betraying the U.S. to Canada? Iceland? Sweden? McVeigh was not a traitor, he was a criminal. If JYCE or other nitwit Robert Kim defenders want to make a semi-valid comparison that makes white men look bad, use Aldrich Ames and let ol’ Tim rest in peace.
So, if McVeigh were pro-white, was he betraying the U.S. to Canada? Iceland? Sweden? McVeigh was not a traitor, he was a criminal.
Him being an active supporter of anti-Semitic White supremacy was just a counter to your own statement that Mcveigh “did not do what he did because he felt a greater allegiance to his ethnicity or another country, like Robert Kim.”
Kushibo, regarding Arabs targeting white women for rape in Sydney, here you go:
“Anti-Muslim feeling has been exacerbated by the Bali bombings, a series of gang rapes of white women by men of Pakistani and Lebanese background and last month’s counter-terrorism raids on alleged Islamic militants in Melbourne and Sydney.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....wstop.html
Let’s not forget what caused this riot (from the same URL):
“On Sunday thousands of white youths congregated on the beach front to protest against an incident last week in which two lifeguards - the epitome of white Australian culture - were beaten up by men of Lebanese origin. The lifeguards were attacked after asking a group to stop playing football because it was disturbing others.”
If I were Australian, I’d be angered by this:
“THE ringleader of a notorious gang of rapist brothers said he believed one of his teenage victims had “no right to say ‘No”‘ when he attacked her.
Before coming to Australia, the rapist had grown up in an 11-room house with servants in Pakistan, attended private school in Peshawar and planned to follow in his father’s footsteps by studying medicine at university.
But at his sentencing for the gang rape of two of his victims yesterday, he said he thought he was doing nothing wrong when he sexually assaulted the girls.
The man, 26, who despite being convicted of four gang rapes can be known only as MSK, told Supreme Court Justice Peter Hidden yesterday he had a “better understanding of Australian culture now” having read Australian newspapers and watched television from his maximum-security cell.
“I realise now that ‘No’ means ‘No’. In my country if a woman comes to your house and has a drink with you, you believe she wants to have sex. There is no respect for a woman like that,” he said. “I was born in such a place that led me to believe that. So why is it my fault I was born there?”
Police believe the four brothers went on a rampage in 2002, luring more than a dozen girls to their Ashfield home to rape them.”
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.....22,00.html
Funny how Muslims love to condemn Westerners as sybarites, when their own animalistic tendencies cannot be controlled.
Again, I ask, what country does an alleged white supremacist betray the U.S. to?
Uh, Doggie, I have never actually defended Robert Kim, and would never do so, even implicitly.
You remind me alot of this cool short film I once saw, Tex: the Passive-Aggressive Gunslinger. If they ever make a sequel, I’ll recommend you to the producer for the lead.
Funny how no one mentions how Lebanese immigrants run rampant raping white Australian women (who were systematically targeted).
So there are at least four Muslim men doing this, according to the article. Are there many other stories like this, or is this the kernel of it? Four doesn’t seem enough to say “Lebanese immigrants run rampant raping white Australian women” (present tense, generalized comment).
Let’s not forget what caused this riot (from the same URL):
“On Sunday thousands of white youths congregated on the beach front to protest against an incident last week in which two lifeguards - the epitome of white Australian culture - were beaten up by men of Lebanese origin. The lifeguards were attacked after asking a group to stop playing football because it was disturbing others.”
In what I read before I saw this mentioned on Marmot’s, police said the attack was not believed to be racially motivated.
Funny how Muslims love to condemn Westerners as sybarites, when their own animalistic tendencies cannot be controlled.
What I’m feeling uncomfortable with is this lumping of the entire group together, which it seems is what the White protestors (and the Middle Easterners?) are doing.
No more disjointed posts for me today. Must get going on to things that actually pay me money.
Again, I ask, what country does an alleged white supremacist betray the U.S. to?
Again, I point out, you specifically referred to ethnicity OR country:
He did not do what he did because he felt a greater allegiance to his ethnicity or another country, like Robert Kim.
But if you want to bring this back to countries only, I guess you could say this White supremacist betrayed the United States for the Aryan Nation, a vision of a country of only non-Jewish Whites.
I’m speechless that there could be any comparison between Timothy McVeigh and Robert Kim where Robert Kim is suggested to be the worse of the two.
McVeigh is a mass murderer. Kim is a craven, selfish prick who sold some classified material to his mother country — a putative “ally” of the United States. How on Earth being a selfish betrayer of trust ranks lower than mass murder is beyond me.
Wow.
Right on Carr.
Then entire McVeigh / Kim comparison is ridiculous. Calling McVeigh a ‘traitor’ is not technically right, although he could be said to have betrayed a public trust, or the American way, or the social contract, or whatever in sociology-speak. But he did not commit treason as Kim did, which is a specific crime. That is he did not purposely betray the U.S. to the benefit of another nation. That’s not splitting hairs, it’s just using words for what they actually mean ? a rectification of names, if you will ? which is important in the age when the media cannot differentiate between the words ‘lie’ and ‘mistake’ (unless it was done by a Democrat, of course).
I agree with Carr that in this case McVeigh’s crimes far outweigh Kim’s, with the caveat that it is not always so in espionage cases.
Carr is right. McVeigh and his buddies parked a truck filled with nitrogen fertilizer and exploded it during working hours so that they could kill maximum number of Americans. Innocent Americans. To make a statement that the white people should rule America.
Where is Mizar5 who said that there was no racism in the US?
He/She would have said that there is no racism in Australia either. See the headline, “racially-motivated” beatings! Racism is everywhere.
Carr is right. McVeigh and his buddies parked a truck filled with nitrogen fertilizer and exploded it during working hours so that they could kill maximum number of Americans. Innocent Americans. To make a statement that the white people should rule America.
Where is Mizar5 who said that there was no racism in the US?
He/She would have said that there is no racism in Australia either. See the headline, “racially-motivated” beatings! Racism is everywhere.
McVeigh was no more a racist than your typical Hankyoreh editor.
McVeigh was no more a criminal than your typical dogbert.
Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, defines treason thusly:
Treason. A breach of allegiance to one’s government, usually committed through levying war against such government or by giving aid or comfort to the enemy. The offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance; or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power. Treason consists of two elements: adherence to the enemy, and rendering him aid and comfort. Cramer v. U. S., U.S.N.Y., 325 U.S. l, 65 S.Ct. 918, 9327 89 L.Ed. 1441. See 18 U.S.C.A. § 2381. (remainder omitted)
Both McVeigh and Kim fall within the definition. Nuf said on this, and I still find the original question that prompted these posts valid. No one should be allowed to take citizenship in any country he or she is not prepared to defend, or to serve in a non-combattant role if they are Pacifists.
McVeigh was no more a racist than your typical Hankyoreh editor.
Blam! Dogbert the passive-aggressive gunslinger shoots and misses again!
I still find the original question that prompted these posts valid. No one should be allowed to take citizenship in any country he or she is not prepared to defend, or to serve in a non-combattant role if they are Pacifists.
I have no problem with the question per se, but I might if the question is being asked of Korean seeking naturalization and not the people from a number of other countries who have fought against the U.S. or would be far more likely than Korea to do so in the future.
I also have a nagging suspicion that the problems of the interviewee at understanding nuances in English, or even of the interviewer trying to take a stab at Korean, is the real culprit here.