(By guest blogger, Andy Jackson)
UPDATE: In yet another twist MBC has apologized for its reporters’ own unethical practices while conducting their investigation but stands but their accusation of fraud against Hwang’s lab. The fallout from the Hwang scandal is also starting to effect the work of other Korean scientists. Read the latests Yonhap reports for the scoop. Just check out this gem (from the first link):
Earlier in the day, Kang Sung-keun, an SNU professor and a research associate of Hwang, said that the team does not intend to comply with further media investigations into the integrity of their research, calling such tests an insult to the reputation of the nation’s scientists
Appeals to authority and nationalism while standing on the shredded remnants of a damaged reputation will not cut it. Somebody at SNU needs to hire a spin doctor pronto.
ORIGINAL POST: Thinks just keep getting curiouser and curiouser down at ye olde stem-cell lab.
First, one of his chief collaborators quits over Hwang’s alleged unethical conduct and is later alleged to want half of Hwang’s patents (the later allegation is still unsubstantiated as far as I know).
Then an MBC program ran a program documenting that Hwang got eggs from some of his subordinates. It went on to say that some of Hwang’s research was a sham.
Koreans rallied around Hwang, including some legislators. The public backlash against the reporters who exposed Hwang’s conduct has been so sever that President Roh felt obliged to speak out against what he saw as ‘distorted patriotism.’
[T]hings turned absurd the next morning,?? Roh wrote, adding he felt choked with another anxiety seeing the MBC reports battered by the public.
`The cancellation of advertisements indicates things went too far. It means a society of fear, intolerant of any resistance, has been established,?? the president wrote.
Roh concluded his contributing article by introducing a piece from progressive daily Hankyoreh, which also raised concern over what it called a `distorted patriotism?? in the cyber terrorism waged against MBC
(BTW, this is one of the few times you will see me siding with the Hankyoreh and Roh Moo-hyun against the Chosun Ilbo.)
There is a reason that the world’s scientific community has been harsh on Hwang; if they don’t regulate themselves, governments will. They need to show that they are not a bunch of Frankensteins.
Now for the latest twist: One of Hwang’s core research team members, Park Eul-soon, has disappeared:
"For the last two weeks we have been unable to contact Park Eul-soon, one of the members of the team that was stationed at the University of Pittsburgh to work?? with Hwang??s erstwhile collaborator Gerald Schatten there, an insider with the SNU team said. ??The whole atmosphere coming from the U.S. team is strange.?? Schatten last month publicly severed ties with Hwang over ethical flaws in the team??s procurement of human egg cells.
Park was originally supposed to return to Korea on Nov. 17 ??but for some reason gave the impression that she intended to remain in the U.S.," the insider said. "We are looking into the situation.?? On the same day, SNU Prof. Ahn Cu-rie and Prof. Yoon Hyun-soo from Hanyang University caught a Korean Air flight to Chicago. The two professors are scheduled to fly on to Pittsburgh on Friday.
Park is a researcher who holds knowledge of key techniques for the removal of an egg cell??s nucleus and transferring the nucleus of somatic cell into the egg cell. The researcher made a key contribution to the extraction of a stem cell line from the world’s first cloned human embryo, the subject of a Hwang article in Science. The researcher was then dispatched to collaborate with Prof. Schatten’s research team at the University of Pittsburgh. Park also played a crucial role in generating cloned monkey embryos.
As Paul Harvey said; now for the rest of the story:
But it was the fact that Park donated her own ova for the 2003 project that was at the heart of the current scandal that led to Hwang??s resignation from all official posts.
If the researcher wants to stay in a U.S. university to collaborate with the local team instead of returning to Korea, there is likely to be concern over the possible leak of key technical knowledge.
So Park is at the heart of two of the currents in the Hwang Woo-suk mess; his unethical procurement of subordinates’ eggs and the ‘distorted patriotism’ that sees the whole mess as an attack on Korea.
Curious indeed.
(Disclosure: Among other things, I am against abortion and the death penalty. I am also against stem cell research that is based on creating and destroying individual homo sapiens. My initial reading of Hwang’s ’somatic stem cell’ method left me undecided about it (is it the creation of a person or just the housing of random cells?). I hope that it is a method that I can support after I do some more research, a method which would negate the perceived need to destroyed people to help others. So the mess that Hwang has gotten himself into in doubly tragic in my book.)
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It gets even more convoluted:
“Hwang’s team is separately retracing its steps during the pioneering project in collaboration with the cable news channel YTN, in an attempt to show that remarks by researcher Kim Sun-jong, whose statement provided a basis for the “PD Diary” report, were wrong. Kim was a key researcher on Hwang’s team and was dispatched to assist Hwang’s then-collaborator, Prof. Gerald Schatten of the University of Pittsburgh.” (from today’s Chosun)
The scientist Ahn Cu-rie (wonder if they call her “Madame Cu-rie” around the lab–eh, never mind) went to the US reportedly to see if Kim was coerced by “PD Notebook” to claim Hwang’s research was a sham, and has a YTN reporter with her. This should be interesting.
If the Hwang teams’claims are true other labs should be able to replicate the process, and they could patent the technique beforehand to control it. But Hwang admitted lieing, and they did pay women for ova, and there’s no return to credibility from that.
Anyway Mr. Yangbang, if the embrionic stem cells are taken from ova that was going to be thrown out at in vitro fertilization clinics (because the woman no longer needed them), would you be morally opposed to that? Just curious.
Those three researchers in Schatten lab are caught in the middle of a bad controversy. Not just a controversy but a nation that wants to use science to enhance its self-esteem.
The Korean media is much to blame. They along with some politicians and industrialists have boosted Hwang to be more than a scientist. They promoted Hwang to be the best Korean, a Dangoon-LeeSunshin-SantaClause rolled into one person.
Hwang advertised himself to be a SantaClause, saying his research will bring untold wealth into Korea. Promising a world of possiblities with Korea in the center.
It was nothing but a pipe dream now. Hwang’s results, starting from the cow he allegedly cloned, are under review. Some entities beside MBC will soon look into Hwang’s research results including Snuppy.
Wilmut kept silent after selling his lies to PPL therapeutics, but Hwang didn’t know when to stop. He felt safe as long as he stayed in Korea and keep feeding cloning lies labelled as national treasures.
The three scientists in Schatten’s lab must escape the situation. There is angry mob waiting to hurt them when they return to Korea. They’d better just to hide out in America. “Mum” is the word.
Baduk, it might be the case that Hwang “didn’t know when to stop,” but you would think even a veterinary researcher knows how basic science operates, and wouldn’t simply invent lab results that weren’t replicable. What’s the gain in that for Hwang? Any sane person would know that sort of scam would be uncovered eventually, and he’d be ruined for life. I kind of doubt Hwang just made up the results wholesale, he if anything made some poor judgments about not addressing criticisms immediately and truthfully. If not…he really should hang up his lab coat and go work at Lotteria.
Kim Sunjong, the poor guy, got slapped twice.
The first time by MBC reporter. They lied to him saying that all Hwang’s results are proven to be lies. They threatened him that, unless he tells everything, he too will go to jail with Hwang. At this point, Kim allegedly confided some “dirt” on Hwang’s research, which is to be televised soon by MBC PD diary.
Today, he got slapped by Ms. AhnGyuri. The following is my guess.
Ahn: Tell me exactly what you told the reporter.
Kim: I don’t remember exactly. I just told him that some results were falsifications.
Ahn: Which ones?
Kim: The original science paper and May paper(11 clones which showed no adverse reaction to the source patients).
Ahn: You promised that you would keep quiet about that. Your future depends on it.
Kim: I know. I was so fearful when reporter told me they knew everything about Hwang.
Ahn: OK. You tell everyone that you lied about Hwang and you do not know of any wrongs committed by Hwang. And, you misrepresented yourself under duress.
Kim: That will make me a liar and “the enemy of people”(Ibsen). Some Koreans will kill me and my career is finished.
Ahn: It was finished when you confessed to MBC reporters.
Kim: I want out of this. I hate to be working with Hwang again.
Ahn: You have no choice. You were nobody. A street urchin. PhD degree from Hanyang university is a toilette paper. We gave you job. We even send you to here. You ungrateful dog.
Kim: Hey, I acknowledge Hwang’s help. However, you guys don’t own me. And, I am telling you, Madam, you’d better behave. If you press too much, I may spill my guts to American media. Many people will get hurt.
Ahn: Ok, Ok, calm down. We will protect you. We will even guarantee our support. Just play along with us. It will be over soon. We know some people in the government. They can squash MBC like a bug.
Kim: I don’t want to be in the middle of controversy. I am a scientist, not a crook(Nikson?). Leave me out of this.
Ahn: Just play along and record a new interview claiming MBC reporters are the liars. You and your kids’ future depends on this. Are you going to play along?
Hahaha, great dialogue…Sopranos goes to Seoul. Will he play along?
If President Roh, of all people, feels obliged to speak out against what distorted patriotism, that’s a sure sign the uber-nationalism has gotten waaaaay out of hand.
Michael,
This is how it came to be.
1)Wilmut lied when his funding was about to be cut. He put a sperm to a ovum and made a lie, Dolly.
2)Korean government advertise for any scientist who will match Wilmut’s attempt. This in itself was a joke. Hwang applied and got three years of funding to duplicate Wilmut’s result. He tried and tried but could not do it. So, he did the same thing Wilmut did and created another lie. A cow,this time.
3) For a while nothing happened. Hwang may wanted to stop here. However, Rho and Park, his powerful patrons, wanted him to do human cloning. Under their prodding, he again made up some data and sent them over to Science magazine and got it published. This was the last time he lied.
4) He, then, hired underlings. He has chosen those who showed extreme loyalty to himself. Then, he pressured them to produce. He coaxed, pressured and made them compete against each other to produce results. Eventually these underlings like himself started to make up data. He dismissed some honest researchers who would not lie.
5)All this time, Hwang was rarely around the lab. He was out giving lectures to politicians and common folks. Partly, he did not want to “see” what is going on in the lab. Nor he wanted to be part of this new round of lying. Yet he desperately wanted some would succeed in cloning so much so that he started believing that these workers did great science.
6) In any case, he was in the clear. If something bad happened, he was not responsible. If a bad thing happens, he would just fire anyone who was found out.
7) He may be still under the self-created illusion that his underlings did honest work. He maybe even congratulating himself for giving young people chance to succeed in science. His little lie opened up a whole new opportunities for young biologists in Korea. He may even be proud.
The on-going theme here is of *ethics* and the lack of such. This is not just about the ethics of cloning people, this is about the gross lack of ethical management in all sectors of Korean business. I’m enclosing herein yet another example that is from an e-mail dated today, addressed to one of my associates. My associate brokered the contract and their partners signed it but, naturally, they have ignored it and did not sign such in good faith. All names and references have been expunged to protect the decent people:
Dear x;
I received your email this morning and am truly concerned about the situation. Since your first payment on the contract should have been x, 2005
and you are now 6 weeks late. We in good faith sent “A” to Korea to do the [work] without the proper payment. He did his work and had to ask to get his per diem prior to his leaving the country. This is not the way we do business. We have done [job] and many [jobs] throughout the world and we have never been put in this situation. We have no faith in your partners commitment to this [work]. Due to the lack of payment and the apparent lack of your partners commitment to this project, “A” has agreed to work on another production here in the United States . . .
Your partners are the ones that have not fulfilled the contract and have brought us to this point. “A” has lost faith in your company and that he would receive payment for his work because even at this time he has not been paid by you. For your partners to now question our integrity and professionalism is insulting.
We expect this situation to be settled on Tuesday so this [work] can go forward.
This is just *one* example, from one sector of business that I deal with. This company and others will not come over to Korea to solve their problems in a Korean manner (arguing in the street at the top of their lungs), rather, they will avoid doing business in Korea, with Korean companies. Further, they will talk and the credibility of Korea will suffer (if it has not already). This is why even if there is a Media Valley in Inchon, foreign companies will be aware of the additional cost of doing business in Korea and will be wary of doing so.
Thus, due to the lack of qualified management and the adoption of code of professional ethics and guidelines, all of Korean business is adversely affected. If Korea is going to a decent place to live and do business in the future, the current generation of leaders desperately need to address this problem now in a effective manner.
Baduk, whether or not Hwang made up results, and at this point he has to prove himself or bust, he has definitely given a poor image to science in Korea.
The Nation pointed out a couple of things about this mess I didn’t know:
“The procurement of eggs for Hwang’s cloning research has been further clouded by the admission that a key member of his team, Roh Sung-il, paid women the equivalent of $1,400 out of his own pocket for their eggs. Korean television broadcast interviews with three of the women who provided eggs. All three said they had been in dire financial situations, and two stated they had not been informed about the potential risks posed by the egg retrieval process.”
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051212/galpern
I knew Roh paid the women, but not that they were in bad shape financially and weren’t told of the risks. Hwang said he wasn’t involved in that, but again, in such a controversial area as cloning, not being scrupulous makes him look naive or worse.
R. Elgin, I’ve heard countless stories like that of people in Korea breaking contracts, usually with smaller companies that don’t seem to understand international business.
It really seems that Koreans, for their own best interests, ought to drop the confucianism and hyper-nationalism that leads to a lot of ethical “shortcuts” like that. As the saying goes, “Don’t shit where you eat.”
R. Elgin’s story about the broken contract promises makes me laugh. I am constantly consulted by foreign businesses who got suckered by the Koreans. By that time it’s usually too late for these poor bastards.
My advice for the next deal: CASH ON THE BARRELHEAD. NO CREDIT, NO WAY, NO HOW. Not because Koreans can’t be trusted (if 99.9% of 50,000,000 Korean people are completely honest, that leaves 50,000 bastards you can’t trust — lots of ways to get cheated) but because the legal system leaves no remedies in the case you are cheated.
The story always goes thus:
Mr. Kim: “Here is Kim, CEO of Kimsco World Incorporation, CO., LTD. We big company in Korea, know many people in government. Now we have big project bid going and Kimsco will order 10,000 of your esteemed company’s prestigious widgets. Please must to give good price and quick delivery. Project gonna very urgent now.”
Suckercorp: “Thanks for your inquiry Mr. Kim. 10,000 units at unit cost $100 each will come to $1,000,000. Please make payment by telegraphic transfer or irrevocable letter of credit, or bank guarantee.”
Mr. Kim: “Your price very high. We are contacting your competitor now. Please to cut price unit cost until $70 each. We have big order later on; many more projects here in Korea. Kimsco World Incorporation CO., LTD. now business very good. Don’t worry — my friend Mr. Han will sign contract. I am using his name for company due to unfair government harassment. But don’t to worry about that.”
Suckercorp: “That will be a stretch, Mr. Kim, but we can do it. Please transfer US$700,000 to us.” (Geez, this sale is kind of a loss leader, but this will be my first inroad into Korea, and soon I’ll be selling to all the Korean companies! What a goldmine! I’m going to be a hero here at Suckercorp and the richest salesman in Springfield!)
Mr. Kim: “Bid very urgent now. Government says we must have product before bid can be approved. But my friend (very powerful in government) says we will win if we have your widgets. Now very urgent. Don’t worry about payment. All under control.”
Suckercorp: “Okay, Mr. Kim. Because this is so urgent and we value your goodwill, we have shipped 10,000 units to you. I’ve upgrade shipping to FedEx air freight; don’t worry — we’ll be responsible for that extra cost. We’re looking forward to working with you. Please advise on payment.” (The air freight touch is genius! I’m going to be rich off all those future commissions!)
Mr. Kim: “Thank you for quick shipment well received. Bank L/C or guarantee too expensive. We will pay by T/T much cheaper. But now economy not so good, all SMEs are difficult now. Please to must understand our situation. Can we reschedule first payment $100,000? But still need 10,000 more units of widgets for big contract. Once bid approved Kimsco will need second supply top urgent.”
Suckercorp: “Umm. Well, I guess so, but what’s the date of this first payment again?” (Should I do some due diligence on this guy?)
Mr. Kim: “Cannot schedule first payment now. Economy still bad. Please you must understand our Korean special situation.”
Suckercorp: “Hey, Mr. Kim, we are willing to work with you on payment. Can you make a first goodwill payment of US$50,000?” (Getting worried now. Maybe I should check this out and get legal advice. What, that greedy lawyer wants $300 an hour? Screw that.)
Mr. Kim: [no response]
Suckercorp: “Mr. Kim, we’re becoming concerned. You’ve not kept any of your promises to us, and we are considering legal actions against you.” (Hmm, but $300 an hour is too damn much to spend.)
Mr. Kim: [no response]
Suckercorp: “Mr. Kim, respond immediately or we will commence legal actions against you.” (Why isn’t this guy answering e-mails or the phone anymore?)
Mr. Kim: “So sorry, Mr. Kim is on important overseas business trip and cannot respond. He will be back in six months. What hotel he in? We don’t know. Please don’t to bother us anymore.”
Suckercorp: What the hell? Maybe we should talk to that lawyer and do some due diligence. What’s the headquarters address of Kimsco World Incorporation CO., LTD.? Oh here it is: Doosan Bears Craptown Officetel, Guro-gongdan, Guro-gu, Seoul.
Brendon: Dude, you’re fucked.
“Hwang’s results, starting from the cow he allegedly cloned, are under review.”
Not so fast. Now the PD Soochup’s study of Hwang’s results is itself under review. There is a good chance that PD Soochup’s lab results were contaminated.
http://www.chosun.com/economy/.....30069.html
I also have to question the show’s lab result’s crediblity. Considering the fact that the process of approvals from Science and Nature are, as I understand, extremely stringent. So far, other than ethical issues, they have not questioned Hwang’s lab research results - just the complete opposite, they have stood by Hwang’s results.
Who do you believe, Science and Nature with their stellar decades old reputations who had ample time to confirm, or PD Soochup who left the test up to a lab center in Seoul with high probability of contamination?
I’ll take my chances with the former.
“Hmm, but $300 an hour is too damn much to spend.”
Is that how much you charge? Lord, THAT IS expensive. Maybe if you can bring down your price a bit, people wouldn’t hesitate as much.
Hell, no — my rate is quite a bit higher. And it’s a bargain. I’m thinking of going over $400.
Brendon:
LOL. The only thing missing is how suckercorp got lulled into trusting complacency by the fifth columnists at Amcham.
I smell that it is about time for Korean government to step in and cover up the whole thing. Ms.Ahn’s urgent trip to the US should be viewed under this light.
Korean government can cover everyone in Korea, yes including MBC reporters(they have family), but those three in the US can still shoot their mouth off in the foreign media and embarrass Korean government itself.
Ahn went and met with those three “trouble-makers”(free spirited individuals, in my opinion). She delivered the stern warning from some Korean government officials. “If you f*** us, you are dead”.
Soon, under Rho’s orders, all media will suddenly, in one day, stop printing anything about Hwang. Media silence. And, then, Hwang will appear and present his side only and the president himself will put a stamp of official approval. MBC will appologize. That will be the end of this controversy.
Sometimes, people will rather want to believe in a lie as long as this falsification helps them to survive. “The enemy of the people”(Ibsen).
MBC lost? Not at all. Rho Sungil(industrialist) and Park Giyoung(politician) will forever pay these MBC reporters and the MBC president, in the tune of several million dollars each. Why do you think these reporters have continued this long? They were fighting for a better deal than Hwang’s team was offering.
Rho Sungil will get 40% proceed from Hwang’s research, which will be funded by Korean taxpayer’s money. He will keep double books and make payoffs to these co-conspirators.
Money is what these liars want(including scientists!). Taxpayers’ money is an easy prey as long as they sing “patriotism” song. Korean people are willing to give as soon as they hear “for Korea”; they are trained that way.
Considering the recent record of the Korean media, it’ll be the day when the hell freezes over that I’ll believe anything coming out of media’s ‘investigative reports’. We have so often seen so much sloppy journalism, distortions, sensationalism, slanders, blunderings, even lies. I wouldn’t jump the gun and flaunt the MBC report as ‘evidence’ that Hwang is a fraud. Let’s wait and see if more information other then MBC sources, comes out before we decide that.
My question is, what and how did MBC get hold of the Hwang’s samples when Hwang’s research team has not been cooperating with the show’s reporters? Now they have postponed the show alleging Hwang’s results are a fake. That tells me they aren’t 100% sure themselves.
Yet another bizarre episode in Bizzaro World, the human oddity known as Korea where the ends justify the means, truth is self-serving and self interest is morality.
Just today, my brother-in-law was dismayed to discover the woman in charge of his kae (invetment pool) disappeared with everybody’s cash. Lulled into credulity by the fact that she was a trusted long-term co-worker’s wife, he foolishly suffered the loss of the equivalent of US $10,000.
The co-worker is “not responsible” for her actions because quite coincidentally, they divorced a few days prior. So much for “trusted” coworkers, friends, relatives, partners or anyone else in this Bizarro world.
Is anyone truly surprised by this genetics debacle? Hwang is just another Bizarro Superman.
“but you would think even a veterinary researcher knows how basic science operates, and wouldn’t simply invent lab results that weren’t replicable.”
Aren’t there more an 1 or 2 examples of that not being the case?
I don’t think this is the first case of a famous scientist ending up being ripped down from a high perch based on other scientists starting to check out their work and finding major scientifically speaking ethical concerns - like fabrication or faulty reseach methods…
Mizar5,
He is a lucky guy. He got a great lesson about money for only $10,000. I envy him.
Some people lose ten times or hundred times that money to learn the same lesson as I have. It is a typical “con” game; you put undeserved confidence in some person and you get burned.
Let’s analyze your case which is a textbook case.
1) She earned his trust. I am sure she gave him something. Maybe small gifts or free lunch to build up confidence. Some women use their body to “hook” men in. Man is weak in this area. After a great sex, he is willing to give everything he owns. What fools, we are! But, that is how we are built.
2) She then starts something. It could be a business, a loan or a kae. She promises the world(sort of like Dr.Hwang). He will be very happy to join. She may actually reward him initially so that he would bring more people into her scheme or invest more himself.
3) She takes money and runs. He lost everything. No one can find her. He finds only too late that he was suckered into a very popular “con” game.
In Korea, a very respectable and reliable person can suddenly turn into an “operator” due to economic circumstances.
“Trust no one when it comes to money”.
One of the frequent topics that came up in my classes over the years was about student X or someone student X new well had not so long ago loaned what to most people would be a considerable amount of money to good friend or just friend or just coworker Y who then disappeared.
The disappearing part was not suprise at all. You expect that kind of thing from humans from time to time.
What suprised me was how generous or freely Koreans are with such significant sums of cash. I’d tell them in the US, poeple would generally think hard about giving that kind of money to close relatives. We generally start out by not trusting people….
Next, the widgets comment made me think of a guy I played golf with a good bit when I was in the US for a few months when still living and working in Korea. He was an engineer whose company made some kind of electrical widgets with some of them or all of them being geared to the car industry.
He asked me what I thought of doing business with Koreans when he heard my wife was one.
Then he told me about his few experiences and one was fresh.
He said this Korean car parts company with a near by US plant came to him wanting his company to make widgets for them. They brought in a competitor’s widget which they said they needed to add to their product to sell to the main auto maker.
The engineer said his team looked over the widget and listened to the Koreans. They told the Koreans their widgets were actually better than the other companies but they would make the modifications the Koreans seemed to want, no problem.
But, then the Koreans weren’t satisfied with the widgets and showed them the competitor’s widgets again, and the process went on with the golf buddy and his team having a hard time really understanding what it was the Koreans wanted.
He said eventually, the Koreans got to the point and said what they really wanted —- they were not concerned about the quality or designing a better widget.
What they wanted was for this guy to clone the competetor’s widget to a T.
They even came out and said they wanted this golf buddy’s team to stick fake logos of the other company on the widgets — to save time from the Koreans having to do it when they put the widgets in their bigger widget —- so they could sell their bigger widget to the auto maker at a better price.
When the golf buddy refused to facilitate the committment of the fraud, he found he was never going to get paid for the work done to date which seemed to be considerable…
I guess it isn’t just hakwons that think they can lie and cheat and break contracts left and right…..
Even when you make deposit to Korean banks, you have to be very careful. If you deposit a large amount, make sure it is correctly deposited. Some bank tellers may take your money and run. Korea is like a SouthAmerican country in this respect.
And, frequently check your bank record. Some highups in the bank may take your money and run. And, you will have a hard time recovering the money, especially you are a foreigner. The bank may not trust your story.
And, even when the crime is proved, the bank may drag its feet claiming that it has to catch the perpetrator and recover the money first before it can pay back. Depending on the amount, they are just lying to you; they may be in the scheme themselves.
I do not believe branchs of foreign bank, Citibank and others, are any better in this regard. They will play the same game when this happens. After all, Korean branches are run by Korean managers.
Avoid a small bank. Make small deposits only. Deal with several banks(spread your risks).
“kae (invetment pool) disappeared with everybody’s cash. Lulled into credulity by the fact that she was a trusted long-term co-worker’s wife, he foolishly suffered the loss of the equivalent of US $10,000.”
The system of “Kae” has served the Korean American community very well. In the past, it has helped many Korean immigrants to startup small businesses when they lack cash and credit history. As in any system that is based on personal trust, rather then non-personal systematic checks and balances. Because one person is entrusted with such large sums of cash, it’s open to human temptations. The system of Kae survives because there are many more success stories of immigrants helping each other.
I thought I’d add this.
A Korean univeristy student of mine talked about going to Seattle to study and finding a roommate. She said twice she met similar aged people who said they were looking for a roommate. She gave each one a deposit. And she never saw them again….
These were not Koreans who she trusted too much.
Mr. Carr, I was smiling and nodding at your “Mr. Kim” story until I got to: “But now economy not so good…” Oww. I’ve been on the receiving end of that one. After that, I just don’t deal with any small Korean company. You’ve probably heard Korean businessmen complain about the “Korean discount” and blame it on the norks, or militant unions, or Japan, or whatever, when a few of them should look in the mirror to see where the problem comes from.
USinK–I know scientists have faked or exagerrated results, from Piltdown man to cold fusion…in this case the eyes of the world were on Hwang, since cloning has captured the popular imagination, so again you have to wonder at the sloppiness involved in his research.
Baduk: “I do not believe branchs of foreign bank, Citibank and others, are any better in this regard.” Thanks for giving me an ulcer, man….
Mr. Carr, I was smiling and nodding at your “Mr. Kim” story until I got to: “But now economy not so good…” Oww. I’ve been on the receiving end of that one. After that, I just don’t deal with any small Korean company. You’ve probably heard Korean businessmen complain about the “Korean discount” and blame it on the norks, or militant unions, or Japan, or whatever, when a few of them should look in the mirror to see where the problem comes from.
I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I want to make sure that this information gets recorded so others might find it later and avoid the disaster foretold by the typical pattern I describe.
That story I made up last night based on my experiences here, has about a million screaming red flags in it:
HURRY, HURRY - Speed kills. Slow it down.
“FAKE NAME” PROBLEM - Mr. Kim says in passing that Mr. Han, his friend, has “lent his name” as Representative Director of the company but that Kim is the real principal. This is common, but anyone sensible would ask why Mr. Kim needs to obscure the ownership/management of his company. What is he hiding from? This is one of the first red flags one could catch if legal counsel is consulted early.
BUSINESS ADDRESS - Although this was discovered at the end of my fictional tale, if Kimsco were indeed a major business its address would probably not be over there in Guro. A quick call to a knowledgeable and frank foreign or Korean lawyer (call the foreign lawyer!) could give one this judgment.
IS IT A REAL COMPANY? - And of course, we would pull the commercial register of the supposed “Kimsco World Incorporation CO., LTD.” to check if it exists at all. It’s available on line and costs us $1.00 to pull (and then my usual hourly rate to analyze and counsel). It’s surprising how often we find the company doesn’t actually exist.
NO CREDIT - If local banks and guarantee insurance institutions won’t extend credit to Mr. Kim, there’s probably a good reason. They know the limits of the local legal system better than you do — follow them. Any Korean counterparty who cannot pay in advance by T/T and cannot arrange intermediation by a trusted financial institution is not worth the risk. The banks are here in Korea and have much more staying power than a foreign company selling from offshore; if they won’t extend credit why should you?
BIG TALK - People who try to get over on you now with promises to make it up in the future are exploiters and cannot be trusted. It applies equally to sales of goods and services. Customers who ask for a concessionary rate now so that the vendor can get future work at full price are liars: Giving in to that game establishes one as an easy mark for exploitation.
MISSED FIRST PAYMENT - This is the big one. If there is no first payment, there will be no later payments either. You wouldn’t believe how many foreigners get burned by this one and reschedule again and again, all the while continuing to supply more goods or services to the Korean customer. (There’s another version of this one where the canny foreigner insists on partial advance payment: That first payment is made, because otherwise goods won’t be delivered. After that, no more money is released.)
ECONOMY NOT GOOD - We have been hearing versions of “economy not good” as an excuse for for eight years. You should translate it into English as “I’ve mismanaged my company into bankruptcy.”
PLEASE UNDERSTAND OUR SPECIAL SITUATION - Everyone is special. This means “I’m not taking responsibility.”
UNAVAILABILITY DUE TO BUSINESS TRIP - This one always cracks me up. We see it every time. In English, “extended business trip” means “he’s a fugitive from justice”.
So, what to do about it? Number one, although legal services may be expensive, getting ripped off is far more expensive. (Of course, it really burns when you choose the wrong law firm and your lawyers rip you off too. If there are six lawyers waiting for you in the conference room, run away — there are 10 more billing on the case in the back room.) Consult a lawyer at the beginning of your commercial transactions and 99% of disasters can be spotted in advance and avoided.
Credit reporting is becoming available. Use it. Get a credit report from the National Institute of Credit Evaluation (www.nice.co.kr), a joint venture with Dun & Bradstreet. Get reports on both the company itself and its Representative Director individually.
Never be an unsecured creditor. Unsecured creditors here have no recourse other than the criminal system. And the returns on that are not great: The police here put just about zero effort into looking for swindlers.
If assets are offered as security, have the security evaluated by a lawyer so you can be sure you’re getting what you think you’re getting. Last night we counselled someone on the advisability of accepting a fourth-priority keun mortgage on 500 sq. m. land and two-story commercial building in Mapo already encumbered to the tune of W730,000,000. Upon default and liquidation at auction, the other creditors would be paid out W730,000,000 before our client would see a dime of proceeds; they’re selling W1,100,000,000 worth of equipment — does that sound like a good idea?
Recently another foreign client who had gotten swindled out of millions of dollars came to our office with a “guarantee insurance” policy that their trusted agent had supposedly bought for them in Korea for a W6,000,000 premium. It turned out to be a “Silver Insurance” supplemental-health policy with a W1,000,000 benefit level and a W20,000 premium; the trusted agent had embezzled the rest of the money to buy a really swell computer for himself. It took me seconds to recognize the discrepancy but by that point they had been relying on the trusted agent as their only source of information about Korea for years.
Now, if you’re a knee-jerk defensive nationalist like baduk or lux bearer, these war stories might lead you to shriek “Brendon hates Korea, to criticize so much!” Far from it. My own experiences here, especially with the folks in my firm Aurora Law Offices, have been really positive; our guys are 100% decent and 110% (too honest, if you ask me). But like I said earlier, even if 99.9% of Koreans are completely trustworthy that still leaves a lot of potential disasters out there.
Forewarned is forearmed.
That should be on the homepage of AMCHAM, if they had any decency.
I think once apon a time, AmCham used to offer that kind of service to its members and to American companies interested in doing business in and with Korea. But one of the sad things about AmCham is that as its membership has become less and less “American” and more “Korean” (let’s face it, the other foreign chambers are still foreign, but AmCham is essentially a Korean organization now), its advocacy and intelligence-sharing function has atrophied due to concerns about saving Koreans’ face. I can understand wanting to be a “good neighbor” but not at the expense of sacrificing the original mission of the organization.
Many news this morning point to “cover up” in full swing. MBC cancelled its broadcast on Hwang’s results. We may never see the confession of Dr.Kim that is so crucial in MBC’s argument. And, looks like there will be no verification of Hwang’s discoveries by a third party, either.
Instead, MBC is appologizing to the public about PD soochup’s strong arm tactics. In short, MBC is waving a white flag.
It all points to one thing: Payoff has been made.
When MBC reporters leave the town with their newly acquired millions of dollars, Korean public really have to re-examine their priorities.
Do they want to continue this dog-and-pony show by Dr.Hwang? Can they afford to lose credibility in the international scientific community and be labelled as “savages who play with human ova”?
I know the answer is overwhelming “Yes”. But, the consequences of this action may be more profound than Koreans assume. Korean science is doomed. Hwang, Rho Sungil and Park Giyoung will make sure of that. They will rule from here on and will become “Microsoft” of Korean science scene, less the earnings. They will eat up Korean tax money alloted for scientific development.
People who like lies more than truth must suffer consequences.
MBC is publicly apologizing (written) about lack of its own ethics and has cancelled its show. Hwang’s researchers one by one have come forward with their tales of MBC reporters as back as June, harassing them, threatning them, stalking them, misleading them, and warning them of imminent arrests of Hwang. MBC has also no answers to charges that their genetic samples have a high chance that they were contaminated by the use of paraformahydrate, which makes the genes change - a basic science blunder that questions their credibility. Also interesting, MBC also met with Dr.Schatten which probably influenced him someway in deciding to part with Hwang. Day by day, the picture is getting clearer.
Koreans are celebrating now. Another obstacles gone and now Dr.Hwang and Korean scientists will bring billions of dollars to Korea and Korea will become one of the wealthiest countries in the world by bringing new cures and hopes to the sick.
Wrong!
Koreans, who do not know how the world turns, just step on a big toe. They just crapped on the face of one of the biggest organizations in the world. One of the most powerful. RC!
This organization can eat up small countries like Korea for breakfast. This organization can send Korea back to stone ages.
As more “humanoid killings” continue in Korea, Hundai and Samsung will lose their markets. Koreans are not the only ones to use economic pressures to make their desires known. Korean corporations may downright disappear from Western markets!
This Hwang thing may end Korea as we know it today.
Brendon Carr wrote:
I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I want to make sure that this information gets recorded so others might find it later and avoid the disaster foretold by the typical pattern I describe.
I think you’re doing a great service here.
I know that some companies are in bad shape and keep going further hoping that this one break will put them back on top of things, but to some extent it sounds like some of these companies might be complete scams. Like the African bank stories. Are any of them like that?
That story I made up last night based on my experiences here, has about a million screaming red flags in it:
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. This has “wife of dead strongman in Africa needs to move millions” red flags.
Like those cases, it sounds like some people’s greed is making them stupid.
“FAKE NAME” PROBLEM - Mr. Kim says in passing that Mr. Han, his friend, has “lent his name” as Representative Director of the company but that Kim is the real principal.
Serious red flag.
A quick call to a knowledgeable and frank foreign or Korean lawyer (call the foreign lawyer!)
But you’re the only one of them who’s actually still in the law business!
It’s surprising how often we find the company doesn’t actually exist.
This really sounds like a Nigerian bank scam.
NO CREDIT - If local banks and guarantee insurance institutions won’t extend credit to Mr. Kim, there’s probably a good reason.
Yes! If even the Samhwa-Money people won’t touch you, you stink.
UNAVAILABILITY DUE TO BUSINESS TRIP - This one always cracks me up. We see it every time. In English, “extended business trip” means “he’s a fugitive from justice”.
Ha ha!
Consult a lawyer at the beginning of your commercial transactions and 99% of disasters can be spotted in advance and avoided.
I’m surprised people would be willing to go along with some of these things.
Upon default and liquidation at auction, the other creditors would be paid out W730,000,000 before our client would see a dime of proceeds; they’re selling W1,100,000,000 worth of equipment — does that sound like a good idea?
This is also true when people put their money down for an apartment. If the owner has used the property as collateral for other loans, you might not ever see your “key money” again. Go to the ?? ??? and check it out.
Now, if you’re a knee-jerk defensive nationalist like baduk
Isn’t Baduk the one saying Koreans can’t be trusted?
My own experiences here, especially with the folks in my firm Aurora Law Offices, have been really positive; our guys are 100% decent and 110% (too honest, if you ask me). But like I said earlier, even if 99.9% of Koreans are completely trustworthy that still leaves a lot of potential disasters out there.
I think you made a very good point. And the 99.99% thing really does a good job of underscoring that (I always use “95″+ percent). I think that a lot of those 0.01% or whatever it is might easily turn to “international” business transactions because it is easier to snow people who are unfamiliar with Korea.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Everyone should have forearms.
Hasn’t it occured to you guys that the
PD has something personal to prove?
Maybe he is a christian with opposing
views about the research…
USinKorea,
Was your Korean friend already in the States? If so, I hope you or someone had educated her about paying by check so there’s paper evidence and about small claims court. Too late for the deposit money, but if she’s still in the US, she can avoid future losses.
MBC PD did well when they unleashed the ethics problem story. But then they got carried away and did this:
{
Lee Young-soon, of Seoul National University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, said, “MBC was making threats during its investigation of the science in the matter when it was never qualified to investigate it in the first place.” Lee added, “If ‘PD Diary’ with absolutely no scientific background, tried to verify the scientific research, it would become laughing stock of the scientific world. With ‘PD Diary’ completely discredited, it would now be desirable for national agencies to step in.”
}
Lee Young-soon, of Seoul National University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, said,”MBC was making threats during its investigation of the science in the matter when it was never qualified to investigate it in the first place.”
The word “threat” might be a bit of an exaggeration. “Tell us he truth before the government investigators find out” is not too threatening. That is unless you have something to hide.
“..never qualified to investigate” makes me think there is a bit of a “God complex” surrounding these researchers.
“Don’t question us you ignorant media mortals. We are the mighty creators of Snuppy!”
The word “threat” might be a bit of an exaggeration. “Tell us he truth before the government investigators find out” is not too threatening.
Dr. Phil,
One extremely bad feature of Korean news gatherers is that some particularly unscrupulous “journalists” have been known to dig up dirt and then blackmail the subjects of their investigation. In other words, the public good is not the only thing that some “investigative journalists” go after.
That is unless you have something to hide.
I don’t buy that “there’s nothing to worry about if you’ve got nothing to hide” line when it comes to stripping away civil liberties, and I don’t buy it here.
If you are so inclined, you can take almost anyone and dig up enough information on them, even stuff that is non-incriminating, and you could smear them and make them look like they are engaged in serious wrongdoing. Especially when they are shy about putting all their cards on the table for whatever reason.
$400/hour is relatively cheap-the company I work for is charged $800/hour to have attorneys come from New York. We are charged from the time they leave their office to the time they return to the office-ouch.
As for Dr Hwang, I think the fact that he lied about his methods removes all credit from him and as has been indicated, calls into serious doubt all of his experiments. Yes, I do think everyone in Korea thought he would be the next Samsung semi-conductor and are understandably pissed that fantasy seems to have been crapped on. As for the people in the states, if you were one of them, wouldn’t you want to dissapear too? think of all the people asking questions and making accusations should they return to Korea. As far as Ms Park leaking key knowledge to other groups, that remains to be seen but if the process was not A) extremely well documented, B) Ms Park didnt sign a nondisclosure agreement and C) if the process/technology has not been copywrighted-whose fault would that be?
She was telling the tale in my hakwon class about a past trip to study English.
She was telling the tale in my hakwon class (in korea) about a past trip to study English.
This is why the US is such an amazing country. This type of “coverup” cannot happen in America.
Wilmut can hide out in England and Hwang in Korea. They have enough clout to lie and get away with it.
In the States, Cold Fusion had no chance. The newspapers got to the bottom of it. American people have “ShowMe” attitude which can debunk these type of chalatans.
But, not in other countries. Korea and England put money in fairy tales like this one and eventually lose. And, Hwang can lie to Koreans all he wants, but if he tries that outside Korea, he will get caught.
MBC’s reporting is a joke. I happened to have a Ph.D. but if Hwang fooled so many master scientists so successfuly, he is smarter than Einstein. It is virtually impossible to cheat a journal such as Science. Anyone who tried to publish his/her paper in any major journal would understand what I’m saying. Science is one of the top academic journals on the face of the earth. It’s just simply not possible to fool mutiple reviewers (typically 3) in that journal.
This whole joke is like a toddler trying to evaluate a paper done by a master scientist.
One thing I really don’t understand is that how come the three scientists dispatched to Schatten of the U of Pitt could be so easily cheated by a toddler? They should trash their degrees.
It’s really a shame if “PD Notebook” bungled its reporting, because the amount of investigative journalism in Korea is basically nil. It doesn’t negate that Hwang lied and his team was unethical, and whether his research is legitimate remains to be seen. I hope he wasn’t snowing people about it.
Sang Yeal Lee–simply getting a report vetted and published is no guarantee of its truth:
http://medicine.plosjournals.o.....ed.0020124
Now, I am not a big fan of Korean journalism either. But I would not overdo it and say things like ” the amount of investigative journalism in Korea is basically nil.”
One interesting book is “The Top 100 Scoops in Korean Journalism” (Hangugeollon 100 Dae Teukjong) (or ???? 100? ??) by Heo Young-beom (the Chosun Ilbo journalist who broke the story that both of Lee Hoi-chang’s kids avoided the military service).
Thanks for mentioning the book, Mark. I still don’t see the equivalent of “60 Minutes” or a Seymour Hersh here, but yeah, I was exaggerating I admit.
Baduk, you’ve made some excellent points in this thread. Thanks. I’m interested in keeping abreast of the issue to see how the situation is perceived once this whole distraction about MBC dies down.
Will the government and media swoop in to reclaim Hwang as a hero?
Will people take an objective attitude or another worthless “us vs the world” stance whereby Hwang was framed and Korea smeared at the hands of foreigners?
Will Koreans seize on the old Korea-as-victom of-those-damn-foreigners angle by accusing Schatten of engineering the disgrace of Dr. Hwang in an attempt to steal Korean thunder?
I so love a good drama.
No matter what happens, what respectable international scientist will want to collaborate with Korean scientists after this three-ring circus?
Mizar5,
Interesting questions.
1)Will the government and media swoop in to reclaim Hwang as a hero? Yes, it is coming from Rho himself(thru Park GiYoung). The Uri party boosted Hwang from a mere scientist to a national hero. He is a poster child for this administration.
2) Will people take an objective attitude or another worthless “us vs the world” stance whereby Hwang was framed and Korea smeared at the hands of foreigners? Koreans are still “frogs in a pond”. They will never outgrow this “I do this for Korea” argument. Xenophobia still runs high in Korea.
3)Will Koreans seize on the old Korea-as-victom of-those-damn-foreigners angle by accusing Schatten of engineering the disgrace of Dr. Hwang in an attempt to steal Korean thunder? Schatten is pictured as the Incarnate Evil. Many posts in Korean newspaper started calling him, “a lying Jew”. This is not fair. Soon, many pro-life crowd will call Hwang the Korean Demon and Koreans to be the horde of savages.
4)What respectable international scientist will want to collaborate with Korean scientists after this three-ring circus? No scientists outside of Korea will ever touch him with the three feet pole. Hwang is a dead dog, but he and Koreans do not know that yet. Hwang will be nobody in five years.
PD Soochup still maintains that it has the tape of the confession. They may sell the tape to the Nature magazine when Hwang makes another of his “breakthrough”s and tries to come back. The Nature will annihilate Hwang with the tape. Hwang’d better stay quiet for the rest of his life.
SangYeal,
From http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts.....2prom.html
“”I can however assure you that I have had more than one graduate student who has subsequently become eminent and who I know was fudging data. I have also had undergraduate students who have gone on to do their PhD elsewhere and when they went to certain professors reported back to me malpractice that amounted to fudging data (e.g. repeating an experiment ten times until one experiment worked out significant and then publishing just that one without mentioning all the failures). In addition I know of several people in biology and psychology whose results cannot be replicated, who refuse to give access to their raw data and who could not possibly have completed the experiments they claim to have undertaken in the time available. Their immediate colleagues know what is going on but universities tend to protect them because employing fraudulent staff is not good for the image of the university. In a recent case a professor was caught changing figures obtained by a research assistant. All the university did was to reprimand him and tell him that he could never apply for another grant so long as he remained at that university. He is now at another university. I am extremely sorry that the law of libel prevents my being more specific.” [11].
These days, more and more of these frauds happen, especially in Biology. Competition is fierce in that discipline due to the fact that anybody can do biology. No background required. Look at the case of ParkUlsoon, the Runaway Scientist from Hwang’s lab. She was cleaning pig’s cage one day and the next day she developed “world-class technique in nucleus removal”. Literally anybody can become a biologist. A world-class biologist, if you willing to bend the rules a bit! A man who will feed many, many future generations of Koreans, as Hwang claims himself to be.
“Baduk, you’ve made some excellent points in this thread.”
I don’t think they are excellent points at all. Baduk’s points are mostly unsupported conspiracy theories (true or not, still guesses). Judgements should be made on facts, not generalizations and predictions (however true or wack they maybe). The fact is, MBC bungled badly (not too unusual for Korean press) in trying to prove and justify themselves, while Hwang also bungled in trying to be the first scientist to come up with stem cell cures. The problem here, as others has pointed out, is that I think from top to bottom there are no institutions in Korea that are trustable. It’s going back to he said, they said situations where everyone is pointing fingers. So who are you to believe?
One thing I have to hand it to baduk though, he is consistent. If Dr. Hwang was a Dr. Hank, an American scientist, baduk would still be saying MBC is correct, genetic cloning is a fraud - unlike some who would probably had the impression that MBC is on a witch hunt to persecute foreigners and being anti-American with their bullying unethical reporting tactics.
“3)Will Koreans seize on the old Korea-as-victom of-those-damn-foreigners angle by accusing Schatten of engineering the disgrace of Dr. Hwang in an attempt to steal Korean thunder? Schatten is pictured as the Incarnate Evil.”
I can see this happening, especially if Schatten wins the Nobel prize, and/or, he miraculously comes up with a cloning breakthrough. There’d be lot of charges of he stole the secrets, charges of treason for those who disappeared to work in the US labs, anti-Americanism, and on and on. It’s never a freakin dull moment of life in Korea.
More to come later.
From the same source,
That these sorts of experiences are common is attested by Charles McCutchen, a researcher at the US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare who has considerable experience with cases of scientific fraud. McCutchen writes that:
“In protesting scientific fraud, the whistleblower soon realizes that he or she will have few allies. The biomedical science establishment has taken the position that fraud is very rare, and will use almost any means to maintain that illusion. Its response is sufficiently savage to make whistleblowing professionally suicidal if the accused is either important or can involve someone important. This means that one cannot in good conscience ask for support, because one has no right to get the career of an innocent third party destroyed.
“The de facto alliance between perpetrators of scientific fraud and the biomedical science establishment is reflected in the response of the scientific journals. I know of only one, Neurology, that has published a direct exchange between accuser and accused. Nature has been ambivalent, and all other journals I know of have either avoided the issue, or, like Science, been captives of the nothing-is-wrong establishment”[26].
My comment: PD Soochup had no chance from the start. Scientific establishment itself does not want the truth. I was somewhat surprised at Science journal’s attitude, but this article names it to be a “cover-up artist”.
The Nature magazine is in “ambivalent” mood on Hwang as well. It wants to catch Hwang so that Wilmut(their native son) can claim the crown. Yet, blowing the cover off Hwang could come back and bite Wilmut, who is still suspected for fraud himself by American scientists include Walter Gilbert, a powerhouse at Harvard.
Hwang is just a small player in the world of biomedical battle ground. If he is not careful, he will go down, and take Korea and Korean scientists worldwide with him.
It is such an outrage that Wilmut was never told by anybody to repeat his experiment. The world will not have no argument with Wilmut if he had made Dolly2, Dolly3, etc. and have the world scientists to examine his creation freely.
However, he did not. He sold the technique to PPL Therapeutics and the company immediated seal the technique as proprietary. A perfect crime.
Now, it is such an hypocracy for the Nature magazine(British publication) to attack Hwang. It is like a pot calling a kettle black. A liar calling another liar a liar.
Baduk, something that is being done for the first time is, almost by definition, a difficult thing to accomplish. And if it is a difficult thing even for its first innovators to accomplish, how much harder is it for others to replicate?
By way of analogy, was the Wright Brothers’ first flight not really a flight at all because it took others some time before they could replicate the Wright Brothers’ flight?
Like I often heard growing up, if it were easy, then everybody would be doing it.
The world would like to see technological innovation, but competitive scientists would like to see charlatans among them get their due. Who is saying Wilmut is a fraud?
Originally, many people including Dr.Walter Gilbert, expressed serious doubts. http://www.junkscience.com/news/wilmut3.htm Now, they are somewhat silent, not because they changed their views but because they do not want to repeat the same argument again and again. After all, Dolly is dead and the technique is sealed and they cannot do anything about it.
I believe that more than 50% of biologists stil do question the cloning from a somatic cell.
Back to the main topic….Hwang’s team announced today that they would not do verification of their recent paper on human stem cells. What kind of scientists are they? Wilmut’s kind, I guess.
This is the state of biomedical science these days. They write a paper but they do not have to repeat the experiment. This goes against the very definition of science,
“Bacon described a repeating cycle of observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and the need for independent verification.”
Biologists are not scientists. There is no longer independent verification. A lie can perpetuate as did with Arab alchemists who claimed to have made gold from other elements. Wilmut started this trend and Hwang is following the technique.
Schatten wrote a disclaimer recently to the Science journal that he only proof-read and corrected Hwang’s paper and that he by no means was a part of Hwang’s research team. He does not want to go down with Hwang.
Baduk, do you have a link to Schatten’s disclaimer? Given the claims you make, I’m not going to believe something unless I get independent verification from another source.
Anyway, Bacon was referring to experimental analysis of scientific phenomena already in existence. That is a different animal from technological innovation, which is what the first test-tube baby, any alleged cloning of specific stem cell lines, the first flight, manned space flight, etc., actually are.
Can we say that humankind traveling to the Moon in 1969 was a falsehood because we now don’t have the resources at our ready to replicate it? No, of course not. It’s not an experiment but a technological innovation. By its nature it is difficult to replicate, but that doesn’t mean it exists.
So does that mean it’s all a sham? No. If Hwang is really zooming everyone, he will eventually have nothing to show (i.e., no practical medical innovations). That is where check and balances come into play.
Hwang’s experiments only take one day to verify. If they have stem cells as they claim, then just get a hair from the somatic cell donors and give them to a third party, like the Korean Scientific investigation service. The neutral party will do everything(extracting DNA and running gels) in one day and give the results. Just one short day!
Hwang’s team say they cannot do it. The entire nation is embroiled in the controversy and yet these liars who are paid with Korean taxpayers money refuse to do the minimum. Why is that? Nobody is asking them to repeat the entire experiment, the nuclear transfer and all. Just verify the outcome. Yet, they refuse. Why?
Kushibo, about your question. I am not a member of AAAS and I cannot excess the article. I read in a Korean newspaper that corrections have been made to Hwang’s second article. Instead of 11 successes, the correction shot down about 3 as questionable stem cells and 3 as total failures. I guess that Schatten made this corrections. Remember that in his parting announcement Schatten said that Hwang’s second article contained some “technical” errors? The same newspaper article said that Schatten clarified and narrowed his “role” in the same correction. His contribution to the Hwang’s second paper was just proof-reading the initial article and supplying comments.
The most recent tidbit about Hwang’s controversy is that some pictures sent to the Science along with the second article were found to be wrong. Some pictures were generated from others by shooting from different angles and enlarging.
Hwang’s team acknowledged that those pictures are from the same sample. They claim that those were simple mistakes.
Hardly! These are pictures of their prized stem cells. And, these pictures prove the state of those cells. How can they mix up such important experimental results? What other simple mistakes were made? Maybe some observations? Additional experiments done to verify these are indeed stem cells?
It is obvious that they exaggerated their success rate. PD soochup got a tip that some of Hwang’s “cloned” stem cells were the same ones as those supplied by Mizmed hospital, the Rho Sungil’s outfit where they have created several stem cells from discarded eggs and sperms!
More whacky Hwang news: he’s “unlikely to return” to his research anytime soon…hmmmm….
http://english.yna.co.kr/Engne.....600E6.html
This one is priceless: “Support group publicly pledges ova donation to stem cell research”
http://english.yna.co.kr/Engne.....825E5.html
Maybe Koreans have succeeded in cloning after all.
No. If Hwang is really zooming everyone, he will eventually have nothing to show (i.e., no practical medical innovations). That is where check and balances come into play.
No practical medical innovations, sure, but will Dr. Hwang really end up with “nothing to show” for his escapade? Like I said, there’s an awful lot of no-strings attached taxpayer money sloshing around Dr. Hwang right now.
Once he gets over his “ulcer” he has more than 100 flower-petal-sprinkling groupies waiting outside his office ready to drop an egg…the lemming effect at work.
With Hwang’s refusal of a third party verification, it is clear what is happening. These guys ejaculating on purchased eggs! Literally. No nuclear transfer nonsense. Just spray sperms and go from there. After all, they have to catch up to England, which just allowed Wilmut to do just that.
“What happened to your monolithic Korean opinion hypothesis now?” - Kushibo, on PD Sujub
“Somehow, I told you so just doesn’t get it.” - Will Smith in “I, Robot”
It was only a matter of time (typically within a week) before “national opinion” would solidify on the issue and settle on a people’s enemy to scapegoat. Two years ago it was the US Army; it was Han Nara Dong after impeachment; more recently, it’s been the Japanese Prime Minister; and now it’s PD Sujub. The pattern is predictable as rain.
The public deplores open questions. They want answers and scapegoats and they want them now. Resignations, apologies and individuals to bear the brunt of public rath and Korean . The facts be damned. Sweep the real issues under the rug and attack the easy target - the non-politically correct.
Were PD Sujub’s practices really so deplorable? If so, what have they done that hasn’t been done before to defame enemies of state? Unbalanced, prejudiced reporting? Misrepresentation? Conjecture? Coersion? Virtually nobody questioned the use of these tactics against the US two years ago. Not a single voice was raised and when one reporter deplored the violence of anti-American protesters forcibly entering the US Army compound, she was fired.
The columnists’ new mantra is that “reporters should not meddle in science where they are rank amateurs.” Why not? Isn’t that precisely what you’re doing when you support Hwang’s research without calling for an adequate proof of its authenticity? Isn’t it the role of a free press to pose difficult questions? Why go after MBC? Quite simply, the Korean concensus machine is in motion using the fallacy of irrelevance to redirect the attention from Hwang - who is clearly at fault - onto the red herring of PD Sujub.
Meanwhile, the jingoistic roots of the whitewash machine dig deeper into the soil of Korean desperation to prove itself. Pre-mensoapausal ajumas line up to donate their aging ova and people spout hateful slogans against the objective.
And to put a fine point on the immaturity,Dr. Hwang is suddenly ill! If you didn’t predict this already, then you are certainly not surprised. The man at fault adopts the typical Korean sypathy gambit of playing sick. Naturally, his doctor won’t disclose the nature of his “illness”. If nothing else tipped people off about his true character, doesn’t this? I’m afraid not.
Are we all children? Is even a charlatan acceptable as a national hero? Are we so desperate to be number one at something, anything? What does any of this have to do with science?
I laugh, I shake my head, I forget. The world is doing the same. They’re learning to write off Korean science, military cooperation, political alliance, business partnership.
Which is what we really wanted. We Koreans just want to be left to ourselves. We don’t want to deal with the world and its ways. And we are going about it in precisely the right manner, doing precisely what it takes to lose trust and respect. Well done, my brothers! And they thought there was no method to our madness.
Isn’t calling him a “charlatan” going too far? After all, no one has yet proven all of Hwang’s works are lies, as you are claiming it is - based on what?
Mizar5,
“You just outdid yourself” - Dumb and Dumber.
Seriously, it was a good writing. I enjoyed it.
Koreans, like lemmings, look around and desperately try to join the “majority”, because being in the majority means they will win. Too frequently, even in this site, some KoreanAmericans want to prove that I hold minority opinion, instead of logically discussing the issue on hand. To them, being in the majority means they are right. Truly Korean logic!
I am glad that you pointed out the “sympathy” ploy by Hwang. Along the same line, Prof. Ahn cried today in public. They believe they are the true patriots.
They lie to Korean people about “cloning” but they are actually developing methodologies to grow stem cell lines and have them grow into specialized cells. They do illegally combine eggs with sperms to massively produce candidates for stem cells. Cloning is just a front for this outrageous and savage act.
“What happened to your monolithic Korean opinion hypothesis now?” - Kushibo, on PD Sujub
Mizar5, I wanted to respond to this properly but I can’t find where this is from. Do you have a link to the comment? Marmot’s keeps freezing up when I search for “monolithic.”
All I could find is where I wrote something about “giv