Again, by way of illustration, look at the string of problems at the UCI Health Sciences department (listed at the bottom of this link). After just the first or second incidents, you would think that the place would have been closed down or federal funds would have dried up, but they didn’t. And sadly, the UCI med people did not learn their lesson.

And these are cases where, now at least, people may have actually DIED (!). Far more serious results than people giving up some of their eggs.

[Someone sent me an email asking me why I'm beating up on UCI, but that's not what I'm doing. I loved that school, I learned a lot, and someday I would like to go back there, but this is just an illustration of real problems that are well-known to the public.]

I support stem cell research. Yet, the comment above is the product of a savage, 3rd rate mind. Ethics is not basketweaving. Ask the ghosts of Aushwitz…Ethics matters.

Neary all Korean research money is going to him. Building with his name attached. Internation bank of stem cell lines,etc. Not much left for the rest of Korean researchers who are working on traditional biological/medical research. Koreans are “putting all their eggs in Hwang’s team”. As Hwang goes, so goes the future of Korea. It is either boom or bust.

Why don’t they use that money and manpower for more systematic research. In DNA sequencing. In developing a better delivery methods. In making anti-virus drugs and new anti-biotics.

I do not trust Hwang. And, his so-called discoveries which have not been verified outside of his lab. His media circus. His political ambition(now, he can run for congress). His dictatorical style. But, most of all, he is a known liar! He has repeatedly lied to journal reporters and to Schatten.

Korea can do without Hwang. It is not safe to put all their money behind just one man who has been proven to lie frequently. A unbiased third party verification of his methods and results are desperately needed.

BTW, thank Kushibo for the link. The things I wrote then(six months ago) are pretty much pertinent now. I must taking some credit for calling Dr.Hwang to be a liar when I was the only voice in the wilderness. It has been only six months, but to me it feels like eons ago.

If that’s true, they would have surged ahead by now. But the fact of the matter is, the governments in those countries are handcuffing their scientists. They talk about no-one being to able duplicate outside of Korea so the whole thing becomes questionable. Wrong. Nobody can duplicate them outside of Korea because no-one is allowed to duplicate them without being punished. With all its faults, it’s refreshing to see Korea plowing ahead and not get mired in all these philosophical ‘ethics’ argument. Unless the Americans and the British free their scientists, most of the breakthroughs will continue to come from Korea, with Korea getting all the windfall if and when there are real breakthrough cures. Those same lamers who are criticizing stem research, will be the first ones in the line to get the latest cure for the ailments. Then you will know what hypocrisy truely mean.

“I’ve worked for years for major “western” medical company and we did experiments on staff ALL THE TIME. Why? Because otherwise it would take over a year for the luddite “ethics” approval to do a 5 week test.”

EXACTLY. This kind of stuff goes on everywhere and all the time. There would have been no controversy if Hwang had invented popcycles. It had nothing to do with Korea being corrupt, cheating, or any other symbolisms of Korea that Hwang is accused of representing. He got caught through a technicality.

Why? Because otherwise it would take over a year for the luddite “ethics” approval to do a 5 week test.

Real people don’t give a shit what the self appointed, technology hating, public teat sucking goodie two shoes declare as being ethical or not. We can make our own mind up if something is right or not.

This won’t change. He was just dumb enough to get caught.

RESPONSE:
It’s not a pro-life issue, Kushibo.

Oh, yes it is. And long before Hwang’s ethical problems came to light, I called Baduk on it.

It’s an ethical issue for many reasons, including the danger to the doners eggs that can even be life endangering.

In any medical procedure there is a potential danger. There’s a potential danger to the donor during collection, to any recipient, and to those of you who believe any fertilized egg is a human being, to the cells in the early embryonic stage (which is very heavily a pro-life argument).

But this is true of a wide array of old and new procedures which receive very little of the opposition from political action groups.

In the case of cloning, pro-life groups are using the focus on what are common and manageable risks in medical procedures (providing the donors, for example, are informed) because they are trying to reach a wider audience (by focusing on the non-pro-life portions of the argument in the case of cloning and stem cells when they do not do the same in other medical issues with no pro-life component) to get support for what their final goal (the pro-life position of a ban on cloning and stem cell research).

This is similar to how far-leftist “chinbo” groups in Korea, whose aim is the elimination of US Forces and an end to the ROK-US relationship (two things unpalatable to the vast majority of Koreans), try to whip up support for their causes by couching them in more moderate terms about issues that even pro-USFK and pro-US people might respond well to (e.g., making sure USFK personnel face justice for their wrongdoing, protecting Korean markets perceived to be still weak, etc.).

Like it or not, Koreans cannot thumb their noses at international ethical standards and conventions without reparcussions and pleading ignorance is no excuse.

I totally agree with you. My point from the beginning is not that Dr. Hwang did nothing wrong; apparently he did. My point was that his wrongdoing was not so severe that he, or Korea’s clonging industry, is now out of the game.

This is a ten-yard penalty, not a red card (sorry for mixing sports metaphors). It’s also a message that Hwang and the Korean players have to clean up their act to remain leaders in the future.

KUSHIBO (responding to: After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back):

The entire world is doing that, because the breakthrough is worthy of that. And by “patting ourselves on the back” do you mean “resting on our laurels”? Because that ain’t happening either.

RESPONSE: First, let’s put Dr. Hwang’s towering achievement in proper context. Cloning a dog was just a continuation of genetic research that is already decades old.

As I heard so many times growing up: If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

It’s a continuation, yes, but it’s still a major development. The cloning of a specific stem cell line for a non-healthy individual, however, is much less routine than this and probably represents the greater breakthrough.

Using human stem cells is a worthy pursuit but no tremendous breakthroughs have yet materialized. I’m talking about premature congratulations when nothing much has yet been achieved.

Maybe I should get Mintyclorets to draw a cartoon of a caveman showing off the wheel he just carved out of stone, and another caveman named Mizar5 shaking his head and going, “Yeah, but what can you do with it?”

Breakthroughs are rarely instantaneous in their application. The Salk vaccination, for example, took some time before its benefit (and related developments) could really be used for maximum benefit.

This is a major step that will take some time before it can be fully utilized, but without this major step, nothing at all would be happening. The first human embryonic stem cells customized to sick patients IS A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, despite the fact that we aren’t yet curing Parkinson’s, spinal chord injuries, or Alzheimer’s.

KUSHIBO:
Dr. Hwang has repeatedly talked about how much his team helped and South Korea is setting up a research hub that includes research institutes from Japan, the US, Europe, and elsewhere. So where do you get the idea that Hwang or Korea are depicting him as “a lone genius who can do it alone”?

RESPONSE:
It’s not an idea; it’s a fact that Dr. Hwang was criticised for sharing the credit with his collaborators by the Korea #1 crowd.

Maybe I misunderstood your original sentence, then, but wouldn’t that be an example of NOT acting like a genius who can do it alone?

It’s also a fact that Dr. Hwang thumbed his nose at international conventions and was caught trying to lie about it.

As I mentioned before with the UCI link, I think you and other critics are over-estimating how much of a red mark this is going to be on Dr. Hwang, while underestimating how much this happens elsewhere. Dr. Hwang will probably never win a Nobel Prize now (not that he was a shoo-in), but he is not out of the picture.

The accusations and the confessions were related to obtaining materials, not technological innovation. Even Dr. Schatten “emphasizes that the science behind the 2004 paper documenting the derivation of stem cells from cloned human embryos remains, to his knowledge, reliable.”

And it’s also a fact that the media

So MBC is not part of the media?

and the citizens are now rallying around making excuses for him. Once again it’s Korea is right, the rest of the world is wrong.

Yeah. That’s what this is all about, isn’t it?

KUSHIBO:
“I guess giving kudos to MBC for questioning a national icon would really put a dent in your mindless Korean hive theory, huh?”

This is known as a “straw man” attack - misrepresent someone’s position so as to attack the misrepresented opinion and thereby discredit the speaker. It’s basically a misguided attempt to win an argument by distorting the issues rather than adhering to the facts.

No, I am attacking your argument. Several times your argument has made mention of “Koreans doing this” or “Koreans thining that,” and I am making the point that the only way this works is by ignoring at least one major Korean player in this news piece.

KUSHIBO:
“I think not getting the facts right is a far worse problem.”

I agree and I have made this point many times before. Unfortunately, in this country the “facts” are very subjective.

Sometimes yes. And not unlike many other countries (including the U.S., which is involved in a major war now over subjective facts). What’s your point?

The facts are these:

Stem cell research is an invaluable area of study that the world cannot continue to ignore, so scientific research will eventually proceed with or without Hwang. The US will eventually surge ahead and Britain and other nations will as well.

Are you saying the US will surge ahead of where it is now (a questionable point, especially if the Religious Right has anything to say about it), or that they will surge ahead of everyone else? If it is the latter, on what basis?

But because for the time being there are sensitive issues, global scientists need to consider and adhere to international conventions whether they like it or not.

Yes, they do. Like conducting research on human subjects without consent and prescribing fertility drugs that had not yet been approved by the government. Or soliciting donations from patients being considered as candidates for clinical trials. Or using blood samples for research without authorization and mistreating laboratory animals. Or selling parts from donated cadavers. Or misspending funds intended for research in some other areas.

Hwang, nor the rest of the country, is alone, and that is going to be a major factor in his resurrection, as long as his technological achievement is sound.

Rallying behind Dr. Hwang amounts to a hill of beans. Damage control will not work. True contrition and international outreach is the answer.

I’m not rallying behind him. MBC certainly isn’t rallying behind him. People I’ve talked to are mixed on the issue. Mainly I’m saying that this transgression is not the indelible scarlet mark that some are making it out to be.

Buduk’s comment about “proprietary methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate” is stupidity.

Actually, he has a point. At some point if this is not re-duplicated (either by others or by Hwang’s own people in a way that is useful), then it will be questioned. Remember cold-fusion?

“As soon as he did something that the pro-life crowd was against, it was a matter before a blunder was revealed. ”

RESPONSE:

It’s not a pro-life issue, Kushibo. It’s an ethical issue for many reasons, including the danger to the doners eggs that can even be life endangering. Like it or not, Koreans cannot thumb their noses at international ethical standards and conventions without reparcussions and pleading ignorance is no excuse.

KUSHIBO (responding to: After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back):

The entire world is doing that, because the breakthrough is worthy of that. And by “patting ourselves on the back” do you mean “resting on our laurels”? Because that ain’t happening either.

RESPONSE: First, let’s put Dr. Hwang’s towering achievement in proper context. Cloning a dog was just a continuation of genetic research that is already decades old. Using human stem cells is a worthy pursuit but no tremendous breakthroughs have yet materialized. I’m talking about premature congratulations when nothing much has yet been achieved.

KUSHIBO:

Dr. Hwang has repeatedly talked about how much his team helped and South Korea is setting up a research hub that includes research institutes from Japan, the US, Europe, and elsewhere. So where do you get the idea that Hwang or Korea are depicting him as “a lone genius who can do it alone”?

RESPONSE:

It’s not an idea; it’s a fact that Dr. Hwang was criticised for sharing the credit with his collaborators by the Korea #1 crowd. It’s also a fact that Dr. Hwang thumbed his nose at international conventions and was caught trying to lie about it. And it’s also a fact that the media and the citizens are now rallying around making excuses for him. Once again it’s Korea is right, the rest of the world is wrong.

KUSHIBO:

“I guess giving kudos to MBC for questioning a national icon would really put a dent in your mindless Korean hive theory, huh?”

This is known as a “straw man” attack - misrepresent someone’s position so as to attack the misrepresented opinion and thereby discredit the speaker. It’s basically a misguided attempt to win an argument by distorting the issues rather than adhering to the facts.

KUSHIBO:

“I think not getting the facts right is a far worse problem.”

I agree and I have made this point many times before. Unfortunately, in this country the “facts” are very subjective.

The facts are these:

Stem cell research is an invaluable area of study that the world cannot continue to ignore, so scientific research will eventually proceed with or without Hwang. The US will eventually surge ahead and Britain and other nations will as well.

But because for the time being there are sensitive issues, global scientists need to consider and adhere to international conventions whether they like it or not.

Rallying behind Dr. Hwang amounts to a hill of beans. Damage control will not work. True contrition and international outreach is the answer.

Buduk’s comment about “proprietary methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate” is stupidity. Pardon the pun but why would a responsible member of the scientific community “put all his eggs in one basket?”

You are wrong. Dr.Hwang is not sharing his “methods” with anyone. Not even with Schatten.

He keeps advertizing on newspaper that his methods will bring more money to Korea. Not BT. His methods. His “proprietary” methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate.

There is still no other lab using Dr.Hwang’s methods. If there were, we would have heard it by now. It is “sperm”, believe me.