UPDATE: Netizens are planning a candlelight demonstration against MBC investigative program "PD Notebook," whose Tuesday edition accused Prof. Hwang of acquiring eggs from subordinate team members. Meanwhile, two firms have pulled advertisements from PD Notebook’s time slot, and Woori and Kookmin banks are discussing suspending their ads.
ORIGINAL POST: Moving on to the big news of the day, SNU professor Hwang Woo-suk issued a public apology for fibbing about how his team acquired some of the human eggs used in its cloning research. Check out Google News’ extensive coverage. As for Korean media reactions:
- Citizens Polarized (Korea Times)
- Bioengineering Research Must Respect Global Standards (Chosun Ilbo)
- More scrutiny, more ethics (JoongAng Ilbo)
- Now that Hwang Has Confessed (Hankyoreh)
Nevertheless, a large segment of the Korean public is standing by their man, so to speak.
Anyway, have your say in my comments section. Personally, I hope this means greater scrutiny over Hwang’s methods, but at the same time, the man and his team have been doing outstanding work so far, and I can only hope this setback doesn’t slow the good doctor down too much.
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51 Comments
Couple of donors from his research crew. What’s the big deal? Most of the donors came from the outside, how does that invalidate his research? Paying $1500 to the donors seems extremely cheap for what I understand a painful and long procedure for the women. How else were they going to get those eggs without compensations? What’s wrong with making a small sacrifice of inconvenience to save millions of people? What’s criminal is not what Hwang did, it’s those who are against progress in the name of religion.
Years ago when artificial fertilization and the first test tube baby came out, there were deluge of condemnations based on ethics. Same thing happened when the first blood transfusions were developed. And same thing with Atomic energy. The list goes on and on. If all those religious and philosphical nuts had their way and they were successful blocking progress, we wouldn’t recognize the medicine and science of today. We would all be living in a cave, die of ripe old age of 20 and everybody would be happy.
Well ethics aside, the biggest problem he is facing right now is the credibility issue. Did he lie or did he really not know? Life is never white or black and on that note as long as he does not commit any “crime against humanity” and get caught lying again, I hope well for him.
“Slow the good doctor down too much” ? “Most of the donors came from outside”?
You guys just aren’t getting it.
Dr. Hwang’s career is over. Anyone who knows the slightest bit, and I do, about the global academic/scientific community knows this. He will never be published again, never be invited to speak at a conference again, will never work in partnerships with scientists from non-Korean universities again, and will certainly never be offered a job at a real university outside of Korea. Oh, he may try to announce “breakthroughs” through Korean newspapers, but researchers around the world will be paying no attention.
Dr. Hwang had his lab assistants give eggs. Game over. This is not some new-fangled issue around stem cell research, but a basic ethical lab principal in place for decades: Your students or workers CANNOT be part of your experiment, because the possibility of coercion cannot be ruled out.
As I’ve witnessed, there is a rampant lack of academic responsibility in Korea - exam cheating is widespread at the university level, and offenses that would have students kicked out of western universities result in minor scolding or nothing here. SNU professors in Doctor Hwang’s own university were recently revealed to be embezzling research funds. Professors routinely put their name at the top of published papers which their PhD students have written entirely. And if you guys and Korea think it is going to be a little slap on the wrist for doctor Hwang, and some “Oh, he had good intentions”, well you are all so wrong it hurts. Caught cheating once in real academia and you are out forever, student or professor. This is a no-second-chances community. Dr Hwang’s scientific career is over, and that is all there is to it.
Embezzling research funds and putting out plagerized research paper is a whole different ball game from being mired in a lab ethics. Whatever his future is, nobody will be able to deny Dr.Hwang’s legacy. That’s because he has laid the basic foundation of stem cell cures. The knowledge has been released. If it’s not him, there will be someone else in Korea, the US, or anywhere else who will take up his torch. You cannot stop progress my man. That has been proven time and time again.
Hwang’s said they were “unaware” of the Helsinki Declaration from 1964 that condemns exactly what his team did. Then Hwang admitted he lied about how he obtained the egg cells. I tend to think this guy quoted in the Times has it right: Dr. Hwang’s admission was “a great shock, but I don’t see any significant impact on South Korean stem cell research,” said Han Yong Mahn, a scientist at the Korea Research Institute of Bioscience and Biotechnology. “This will serve as an occasion for us to make our research more mature.”
So maybe a new scientific discovery in Korea is that ethics mean something to the rest of the world.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WO.....index.html
umm… that’s /index.html at the back of the link.
“This is a no-second-chances community.”
Umm… what about Dr.Schatten’s fiasco 10years ago? He was proven innocent, but neverthless his name and credibility was greatly tarnished by the criminal method used to get eggs by the organization he was involved with.
Hmmm… better detail in the interviews with this link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00591.html
I say this whole controversy is bunk. This controversy would not have come up if it wasn’t for the fact that this was stem cell research, and that half the world oppose it. With everyone watching like a hawk to pounce on a mistake real or not, even one tiny slip up would snowball. If it wasn’t this, someone else would have found another reasons illegality or ethics to try to stop the research.
Neverthless kimbob, Korea does need to wake up to the fact that global standard for ethics exist. As for the “Helsinki Declaration” Michael mentioned, (according to today’s news) over 46% of the Korean life science researchers have never heard of it(additional 40% have heard of it but don’t know the content), and a surprising percentage of Korean reserachers have never taken ethics class. (I thought ethic classes were compulsory, guess not)
Dr Hwang should apologize for lying to the nation but he shouldn’t resign from his posts. the work he is doing is extremely important. and while it would be very difficult to rebuild the trust he once received from the international community, any medical breakthroughs that he presents will be eventually accepted.
as much as we try to make them to be, ethics are not universally agreed upon ideas. coercing a colleague to sacrifice for the team would seem abhorrent in the west but not so in the east. at the company i work for in korea, no one is telling the engineers to stay till 11 at night, but the pressure is still there.
if Dr Hwang is satisfied with only his rock star status in korea, then he can continue with his current working style. however, if he hopes to receive any international recognition in the future, he must more strictly abide by internationally accepted ethical standards. saying that he was unaware of any existing ethics policies is not acceptable. he is breaking new ground, thus he must take all possible concerns into consideration.
i wish the good doctor the best of luck and god speed in his endeavors. the world needs his help.
Here’s a guy who hasn’t quite figured out this whole “ethics” business:
“Park Se-pill, head of Seoul-based stem cell institute Maria Biotech, agreed with Kong. He harvested stem cell lines from frozen embryos in 2000 for the third time in history.
`”We should put a top priority on national interest. Because Hwang unveiled details regarding the egg scandal, now is the time to help him concentrate on stem cell studies that will give LUCRATIVE RETURNS to our country,” Park said. [emphasis mine]
Hugh wrote:
Dr. Hwang’s career is over. Anyone who knows the slightest bit, and I do, about the global academic/scientific community knows this. He will never be published again, never be invited to speak at a conference again, will never work in partnerships with scientists from non-Korean universities again, and will certainly never be offered a job at a real university outside of Korea.
Never say “never.”
People recognize the technological breakthrough and its potential benefits, even if they are uncomfortable with the ethical lapses. He will always be suspect, but if he keeps his nose clean (while keeping it to the grindstone), he will be cautiously re-accepted.
And if he is not, if he remains radioactive, then his breakthroughs will be publicized through others around him.
Oh, he may try to announce “breakthroughs” through Korean newspapers, but researchers around the world will be paying no attention.
That’s incorrect. If he makes breakthroughs like he has had in the past, they will have to pay attention.
Dr. Hwang had his lab assistants give eggs. Game over. This is not some new-fangled issue around stem cell research, but a basic ethical lab principal in place for decades: Your students or workers CANNOT be part of your experiment, because the possibility of coercion cannot be ruled out.
This was back in the 1950s, but it is still within human memory for many people: In 1952, after successful tests, vaccine pioneer (then just a mere scientist), tested his vaccine on volunteering parties, including himself, the laboratory staff, his wife, and his children.
This would be the same “possibility of coercion,” yet the results saved thousands upon thousands of lives, if not millions. It was accepted, and Jonas Salk ended up a hero. He established the highly respected Salk Institute in La Jolla, California, where he attracted Nobel Laureate Francis Crick (the discoverer of the DNA molecule) to work. Salk worked until the mid-1980s, trying to find an AIDS vaccine.
Not only was he not ostracized for his work that included “the possibility of coercion,” but he even received the Congressional Gold Medal and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1977.
I’m not saying Dr. Hwang is quite on the same par as Dr. Salk, but his own group has made incredible strides in an area that might eventually save thousands of lives and improve thousands more.
Never say “never.”
As I’ve witnessed, there is a rampant lack of academic responsibility in Korea - exam cheating is widespread at the university level,
Yes, and this is a serious problem. But it is by no means a uniquely Korean problem. Certainly not to the extent that this should be used to smear Dr. Hwang.
SNU professors in Doctor Hwang’s own university were recently revealed to be embezzling research funds.
Those are serious problems, but all of SNU is to suffer because of that? In that case, I should toss out my UCI diploma because of this and past other scandals (look toward bottom of the second link to see the list of past scandals).
Professors routinely put their name at the top of published papers which their PhD students have written entirely.
Now you are on to something especially serious, because this is so systemic and institutionalized. This is something that HAS TO STOP.
And if you guys and Korea think it is going to be a little slap on the wrist for doctor Hwang, and some “Oh, he had good intentions”, well you are all so wrong it hurts.
Again, see Dr. Salk.
Caught cheating once in real academia and you are out forever, student or professor. This is a no-second-chances community. Dr Hwang’s scientific career is over, and that is all there is to it.
Had he fudged his data, that would be the case. But this is an entirely different animal; it doesn’t negate his results, and it’s a problem that can be fixed, with no effect on the prior results.
Although I don’t agree with your conclusion about what will happen to Dr. Hwang, I do agree that change in attitude is needed.
Kushibo, the problem with your Salk comparison is that he tested the vaccine more than a decade before the Helsinki Declaration on ethics, and presumably had fewer constraints than Hwang. Also, just because an experiment or research turns out to have a beneficial outcome, it does not retroactively excuse the scientists from breaching ethics or laws.
Michael, the Helsinki Declaration on Ethics was not just pulled out of thin air.
Salk had tested the vaccine in the wake of the discovery of the horrors of Nazi experimentation, and the trials that followed.
Thus, Dr. Salk would have been aware of the Nuremberg Code in 1947, on which the later Declaration of Helsinki was based, and its issue of informed consent (he tested the vaccine on his own children!).
OK, so he played fast and loose too. My point was just that even if Hwang “has made incredible strides in an area that might eventually save thousands of lives and improve thousands more,” this does not exonerate him. Also, world science is far more interconnected than in Salk’s time (e.g. the Internet) and ignorance of ethics is that much lamer of an excuse, especially in a minefield like cloning.
Kushibo, you also seem a bit naive about the state of ethics and the business environment in Korea. I have directly and indirectly witnessed many instances of Korean businessmen who sign contracts in good faith, and when they suddenly do not have the money promised and miss the scheduled payment date, they flatly claim that the contract means very little. So many times I’ve seen businessmen who lie about their financing, their cash flow, their connections, only to find out that they were lying. Frankly, this lack of managerial experience and gross lack of ethics is pandemic in Korea and only serves to hurt and tarnish Korea in many different ways.
Dr. Hwang might be a scientist but this sort of ethical blindness is all too common to Koreans. The Korean Government should enact serious courses in ethics for all parts of the educational system and begin revising how the legal system deals with this sort of thing because it harms the national interest directly and indirectly.
P.S. I would trust a Korean *woman* much sooner than the men too.
Dr. Hwang suffered from the same malady that plagues several areas of Korean society(see racism note below before fly off the handle): the belief that it is OK to bend the rules when it benefits you, ignore safety when it is inconvenient, and go a little too far in the name of the ‘family’, ‘fame, or ‘uri nara.’
I can cite hundreds of examples of ‘catastrophic’ news events in Korea that were all caused by one of these things. And what it boils down to is that in throughout the life of the average Korean it is learned that there are rules and laws but when you break them, you can count on the punishment being light and if the punishment is too heavy…you can just complain loudly and feel justified instead of accepting the shame. It is not such a stretch to compare the issue of traffic lawlessness to the Hwang issue. People break the law not because they don’t know about it….they break it because they can; and when they get caught…more often than not…they get a warning…and if they actually receive punishment….it is not severe (case in point: even the potentially tragic crime of drunk driving carries a relatively light punishment for first time offenders) And if they can get away with breaking the rules without any punishment and that benefits them in some way…they have little or no guilt.
Dr. Hwang and those around him were dealing with this mentality…didn’t know the rules?…hogwash! They just didn’t beleive they would be caught and even when they were…they scrambled for a way to try and make it ok…but the international scientific community is the ‘law’ in this case…there is no ’slap on the wrist’ mentality when it comes to matters of scientific ethics…you break the rules, you are ostracized. Hwang did the only thing he could do to save the great work he as already done…he stepped into the shadows with the hope that his colleagues can pick up the ball; hard lesson to learn I think.
And anyone who thinks that the Korean government could actually do a thorough and legitimate investigation of this matter and mette out punishment to its scientific golden boy is just dreaming. The government has invested too much into the whole stem cell/cloning issue to be objective on the matter.
Note on racism: I know that some will say that these are racist comments. However, I am discussing ‘Korean society’ rather than Korean’s as a race. Of course, since Korea is a racially homogenous country, it is more difficult to separate the discussion of ‘race’ versus ’society’ since they so closely related. Though I believe that there are unique aspects (both good and bad)in all societies, I think it is easier to generalize about a monoglot society. If I am a racist against Koreans because of these words then I am a racist against all races including my own. If someone would like to hear my views on the ills of American society, as an American, I would be glad to share them with you.
Michael, I’m not saying he’s exonerated. His resurrection, if there is any, would be contingent on a series of ifs. All I’m saying is that your pronouncement that his career is DOA is quite premature.
R. Elgin, no I’m not naive about the state of ethics and the business environment in Korea. I know that there are plenty of things like what you say. But the conversation about what is wrong with Hwang’s ethical lapses, something which does happen in other places as well, is being bolstered by analogies to legal lapses in other areas that are a very different animal.
And dg611, I agree with you about the problem of following rules when it’s convenient and the problem of slaps on the wrist or inconsistent enforcement of the rules. But there are plenty of companies that do follow the rules (our company takes contracts very seriously) and a lot of progress is being made in this area (because of the increasing spotlight), even though it gets a lot less press than the major scandals that still happen, and a lot of the progress comes in fits and starts.
The only other thing I want to mention is that the naysayers seem to think that Dr. Hwang’s ethical lapses will stand out like a scarlet letter on his record. But inside and outside Korea, including in the United States, there are big problems that pop up. Check that second UCI link and look at the problems listed below. I didn’t pick UCI because it is especially bad; I only know abuot the UCI problems because it’s my alma mater.
Scandals in academia are not new, they are not absent in English-speaking countries, they are not unique to Korea, and they are NOT going to cause Dr. Hwang to be left on the scrapheap of history.
And by the way, although I think Dr. Hwang is riding the media wave that loves him for bringing the limelight to Korea, I don’t think “Urinara” was his motivation in doing his research.
“And anyone who thinks that the Korean government could actually do a thorough and legitimate investigation of this matter and mette out punishment to its scientific golden boy is just dreaming”
Oh come on. Hwang did not break any laws thus Korean government has no justification to punish him. The law that bans paying for eggs did not come into effect since early 2005 - well after Hwang’s breakthroughs. You make it sound like he did a horrible crime of bribary or something. What he did wrong though was to break scientific experiement’s ethics by extracting eggs from his two lab researchers - that’s not exactly a crime. This is a new scientific frontier, rules, ethics, and laws regarding stem cell research need to be looked at and maybe changed for the sake of millions of decapacitated people who still have hope.
And by the way, although I think Dr. Hwang is riding the media wave that loves him for bringing the limelight to Korea, I don’t think “Urinara” was his motivation in doing his research.
Agreed. I mean, he definitely takes pride (see some of his more eye-catching comments) in the fact that he’s helped Korea become one of the world’s leaders in stem cell research, if not THE leader. And there’s nothing wrong with that–he (and Korea) should be proud, and a little nationalism can be a great motivational tool. But judging from what I’ve read and heard from Hwang, his major concerns seem to trascend national boundries, and he did move pretty quickly to take his research “global.” That’s what makes this news so distressing. Yeah, he probably cut corners–corners get cut all the time in Korea (during the great race to “catch up,” it’s not like it had much of a choice), and I doubt he thought much of it, especially given the potential benifits his research would bring in the event of a breakthrough. Unfortunately, now that the cat is out of the bag, his name has been seriously tarnished, and he may have set research back because as Kimbob pointed out, there are tons of people waiting to pounce on mistakes like the one he made simply because of the controversial nature of his field.
Korea - exam cheating is widespread at the university level, and offenses that would have students kicked out of western universities result in minor scolding or nothing here.
The Lost Nomad has something on twenty-seven people caught cheating on the CSAT (??) being sent home. That’s a pretty harsh penalty (although the SAT folks might ban them from re-taking it for several years).
Kushibo, you’re not saying he’s exonerated, and I never said anything about his career being DOA. Now we’re even. Actually, I agree with all this:
“Scandals in academia are not new, they are not absent in English-speaking countries, they are not unique to Korea, and they are NOT going to cause Dr. Hwang to be left on the scrapheap of history.”
There is a hell of a lot of corruption in Korea, but I wouldn’t tie the Hwang incident to cheating in business or gov’t bribery or whatever either.
Michael wrote:
Kushibo, you’re not saying he’s exonerated, and I never said anything about his career being DOA. Now we’re even.
I’m terribly sorry. It was Hugh who had said, “Dr. Hwang’s career is over.”
Mea culpa. That was sloppy of me.
RhoSungil, the president of Med hospital, owns 40% stake of all Hwang’s discoveries. 60% is owned by SNU.
Dr.Hwang knew where Rho was getting his “eggs” and he thought that was none of his business.
Then, his assistants gave their eggs. He knew this was wrong but one of the donors asked him to keep quite because she was not married. So, he lied when he was asked about it.
Lying. And, covering up someone else’s illegal activity that directly affects his scientific quests. Is he a trustworthy person?
Hwang is a known liar from now on to the rest of the world. Only Koreans are going to protect his reputation, but for how long?
Since he is now a certified liar, will his works,which have never been duplicated anywhere else, be trusted? The Journal Science should drop Hwang’s articles. Anything written by him is unreliable!
Hey Baduk, it ain’t ova until it’s ova. (Sorry, I’m just cloning around.)
Personally, I do not believe Wilmut’s Dolly was a clone. He had tried to clone a sheep for over twenty years. He finally lied when his funding was about to be cut.
Getting nuclear DNA’s from a fully grown and fully differentiated cells and having it “start from the very beginning” in an ovum, is in my opinion a fiction.
Schatten, himself, originally published an article that for sophisticated organisms like monkeys and men this was not possible. Then, he recanted when Hwang allegedly cloned a human(human ovum with full set of DNA start diving. What else you call it?).
If you assume that Hwang was lying, then Schatten was right the first time. When I read his article, it included some mathematical and highly evolutionary proofs that sound plausible. Maybe, he was right all along. I think so.
I wrote more about this subject including telemere and Mitochondrial DNA. If you are interested and have some knowledge about biology, visit my blog, http://koreanamerican431.blogspot.com/
In Korea, the amount which an act raises national ch’emyon is directly proportional to the level of dastardliness allowed by the society. Thus, any act which brings great international prestige or monetary wealth to Korea will receive the full pardon and support of the Korean people.
This is how spies and witch doctors become heroes.
If Hwang’s cloning method was a lie and he used a sperm instead of a nucleus of a cell, he committed murders. Murders of humans. He is basically a Nazi.
Somebody should verify his methods and results but nobody can. His methods are “proprietary” and his results are verified by other Koreans. Koreans who are on Hwang’s team.
A perfect crime?
Baduk, if you didn’t exist, someone would have to invent you.
“Lying. And, covering up someone else’s illegal activity that directly affects his scientific quests”
Again, some people are still confused between “illegal” and “ethics”. Illegal is about breaking laws directly punishable by the police. That is a criminal case. Ethics is about rules and regulations of a certain sector like industry, science or business. This is not a criminal case. Did Hwang do somthing illegal? No, not at the time when there were no laws concerning stem cell research. Did he break ethics? Yes, horror of horrors, he used eggs donated by his 2 assistants because he needed all the eggs he could get and there was a serious shortage, right at the time when they almost had the breakthrough. Then he lied about it because he was afraid the research would be negatively effected. Oh, what a monster, he’s just as bad as those crooked Korean SNU professors who submit phony papers.
Tell you what baduk, someday someone will find a cure for retardedness using the stem cell research donated by Dr.Hwang. You could be thanking this man one day.
Kimbob,
You are truly misled. Hwang has promised the whole world to Koreans. What is bending a rule here and there as long as he brings these wonderful cure, you ask.
Here are some of possiblities of what is going on right now.
1)Hwangs explaination: He got nucleus from a somatic(fully differentiated)skin cell and inserted it into an ovum and it started to grow. Is it a copy of skin cell? He says no. It is much more than that. He says it is a stem cell that can grow into anything you want. Is it a human baby? No, he says. It is not human. Then, what is it? He says a stem cell. What is the difference between this “stem” cell and a baby? He says none. This cell can grow into a human being if inserted into a womb.
2) My take: i)If it is not a whole human, then it cannot grow into the useful body parts. A skin cell can only be a skin cell as it has differentiated. Dr. Hwang claims he can change it into something else. He is working on it, but nothing has worked out. Meanwhile, he is telling everyone that this will be done. It is dangerous for a scientist to promise something that he may or may not be able to deliver.
ii) What if it is what Dr.Hwang says it is? A human seed. A cloned human. Aren’t we killing the man? Is it OK to use human subject in developing drugs? Koreans are taught from early on that it is quite OK to kill in advancing science. And, Kimbob, you are too. A human being killed! It is a murder! For a Buddhist like Hwang may think it to be OK, but not for me. I believe that thing in Dr.Hwang’s test tube may have a soul. It may be God’s creature. And, I will not allow Dr.Hwang to kill him. Not even to make use of him to develop these wonderful drugs and therapies. I morally object to it, since I believe that Dr.Hwang may have sneaked in a sperm to form his “stem” cell(then it is truly a murder).
By reading Baduk, I can see where this research is going to lead. It’s going to be another case of pro-abortion versus anti-abortion. When does life truly begin? There is no clear cut answer.
Truly interesting comments from all. One thing that has not been discussed is that according to a Washington Post article one of the two graduate students, who under an alias donated her eggs, is currently working for, yes Dr. Schatten! Part of the ethics issue is coerscion, part is concern for payments leading to egg trafficing (already proven in Korea), and the issue of gaining advantages or favors from donation.
Dr. Schatten probably learned from questioning his assistant that she had donated her eggs secrectly. He knew about the Nature magazine article of course, but after Dr. Hwangs repeated lies of denial he was tipped off about the coming MBC report. He had to back off and break all collaberation. Someone will probably be losing her job with him and return to Korea as well.
In Korea ethics are not an issue. Publically at all levels bribes, cheating (known as ‘cunning’), giving money envelopes for all occasions, ‘justifled’ lying, morality issues, abortion, adoption, abandonment of children, etc. All these life issues are looked at from the eastern mindset. Koreans will overwhelmingly support Dr. Hwang and even though he ‘resigned’ public and government support will reinstate him for the common Korean Cause. And to make money for the BT, the new catch word of Biotechnology that Korea wants to cash in on.
Can Dr. Hwang be trusted to Not clone secrectly fully developed human beings? Are one week old somatic nuclear transfer bioplasts destroyed to ‘harvest’ stem cells humans? Other cloned eggs have the potential to develop into creatures, though the majority are failures. Each cloned eggs would continue to develop into a human if placed into a womb.
His Snuffy dog was the result of 1040 eggs cloned, and only three reached full term, two died after birth. That’s alot of dead dogs. Mad Scientist? Nazi experimenter?
He has been exposed and found wanting. Will it stop him? No, because Koreans have no ethics code when it comes to making money. We have not see the last of Dr. Hwang unfortunately.
After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back. When Dr. Hwang stoked the media mania by citing that retarded “chopsticks theory” of Korean racial supremecy, I realized it was just a matter of time before he made a serious blunder.
And what a blunder! The Korean legacy to stem cell research is that Dr. Hwang has set the field back tremendously.
Koreans will quickly come to realize that Dr. Hwang is not a lone genious who can do it alone.
But the Korean national blame game is already in gear and the pro-Hwang campaign is already attacking “disloyal” broadcasters for telling the sad truth about Dr. Hwang. He is the preoduct of an imbecilic endemic mind control machine that destroys itself from within. It is the madness of Korean culture, and it effectively prevents us from rising to the level of a quality society.
After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back. When Dr. Hwang stoked the media mania by citing that retarded “chopsticks theory” of Korean racial supremecy, I realized it was just a matter of time before he made a serious blunder.
And what a blunder! The Korean legacy to stem cell research is that Dr. Hwang has set the field back tremendously.
Koreans will quickly come to realize that Dr. Hwang is not a lone genious who can do it alone.
But the Korean national blame game is already in gear and the pro-Hwang campaign is already attacking “disloyal” broadcasters for telling the sad truth about Dr. Hwang. He is the preoduct of an imbecilic endemic mind control machine that destroys itself from within. It is the madness of Korean culture, and it effectively prevents us from rising to the level of a quality society.
I’m tempted to answer halfbreed’s screed about ethics-less Korea by going into the S&L scandal, Enron, etc., to demonstrate that you could look at the worst of lots of countries and make the same argument, but it would have little bearing on this. Instead, I’ll fisk Mizar5 again.
After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back.
The entire world is doing that, because the breakthrough is worthy of that. And by “patting ourselves on the back” do you mean “resting on our laurels”? Because that ain’t happening either.
When Dr. Hwang stoked the media mania by citing that retarded “chopsticks theory” of Korean racial supremecy,
Did he say Koreans have a special chopstick gene or something? I think he was just speculating on how certain common tasks requiring dexterity with metal instruments primed his group for doing this. Did he say Whites, Japanese, Chinese, etc., could not do this, even if they grew up using metal chopsticks?
By way of analogy, if I say that I had no qualms about driving in Italy because I’m so used to driving in
I realized it was just a matter of time before he made a serious blunder.
As soon as he did something that the pro-life crowd was against, it was a matter before a blunder was revealed. Scientists are not perfect (look at my discussions of Salk, whose breakthrough virus had critics long after it was introduced).
And what a blunder! The Korean legacy to stem cell research is that Dr. Hwang has set the field back tremendously.
No. If anything, it has underscored the need for dotting i’s and crossing t’s, which will insure greater acceptance in the future.
Why? Because no one is seriously questioning the technological aspect (the reults) — not even Schatten — only the non-technological part (the method in which he got the eggs).
Koreans will quickly come to realize that Dr. Hwang is not a lone genious who can do it alone.
Dr. Hwang has repeatedly talked about how much his team helped and South Korea is setting up a research hub that includes research institutes from Japan, the US, Europe, and elsewhere. So where do you get the idea that Hwang or Korea are depicting him as “a lone genius who can do it alone”?
But the Korean national blame game is already in gear and the pro-Hwang campaign is already attacking “disloyal” broadcasters for telling the sad truth about Dr. Hwang.
I guess giving kudos to MBC for questioning a national icon would really put a dent in your mindless Korean hive theory, huh?
He is the preoduct of an imbecilic endemic mind control machine that destroys itself from within.
You’re right, when 85% of Koreans said they thought Saddam Hussein was allied with al Qaeda, the first thing I thought was imbecilic endemic mind control machine.
It is the madness of Korean culture, and it effectively prevents us from rising to the level of a quality society.
I think not getting the facts right is a far worse problem.
I agree with Mizar5. Dr. Hwang has — perhaps ignorantly, perhaps deliberately — done Korean biotechnology science a tremendous disservice by raising the possibility of fraud throughout the process. His methods are not disclosed, because he cites the need to protect the commercial value of Korean “intellectual property” created through Dr. Hwang’s supposed breakthroughs. Therefore, it requires some measure of faith that he is trustworthy and can be relied upon to adhere to commonly-agreed standards and practices. Unfortunately, Dr. Hwang has now proved that he can’t.
“Part of the ethics issue is coerscion, part is concern for payments leading to egg trafficing ”
Payment for ovary is perfectly legal in the United States and Britain. Korea just illegalized egg payments few weeks back.
“In Korea ethics are not an issue.”
In this case, ethics investigation revealed Hwang violated the scientific ethics. MBC TV did an investigative broadcast. The system of checks and balances worked.
“He has been exposed and found wanting.”
Lot of people make it sound as if Hwang fudged his experiement, faked his diploma, bribed his way into SNU, and manufactured CIA evidence to suggest Sadam was building up the weapons of mass destruction. Of course, nothing he did was illegal.
“And to make money for the BT, the new catch word of Biotechnology that Korea wants to cash in on.”
And why the hell not? With China nipping at the heels and with zero natural resources of its own, Korea’s desperate to find new avenues of sustained growth - or end up sinking. And Biotechnology is one of those growth areas that they’ve targetted. Can you blame them?
“His methods are not disclosed, because he cites the need to protect the commercial value”
Huh? What did Hwang do with Dr.Shatten for the last couple of years - slap each other and congratulate each other? Some are even saying Hwang is a schmuck for giving up all the secret (and the Nobel prize) to Shatten. Dr. Hwang’s team trains researchers from other countries, according to Globe and Mail. That’s a strange way to keep all the secrets to themselves - why collaborate with researchers from US and Britain if he wants to keep the secrets to himself?
Look, there’s no denying there’s lot of corruption and what have you in Korea, but Hwang’s case just doesn’t fit that bill.
Kimbob,
You are wrong. Dr.Hwang is not sharing his “methods” with anyone. Not even with Schatten.
He keeps advertizing on newspaper that his methods will bring more money to Korea. Not BT. His methods. His “proprietary” methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate.
There is still no other lab using Dr.Hwang’s methods. If there were, we would have heard it by now. It is “sperm”, believe me.
KUSHIBO:
“As soon as he did something that the pro-life crowd was against, it was a matter before a blunder was revealed. ”
RESPONSE:
It’s not a pro-life issue, Kushibo. It’s an ethical issue for many reasons, including the danger to the doners eggs that can even be life endangering. Like it or not, Koreans cannot thumb their noses at international ethical standards and conventions without reparcussions and pleading ignorance is no excuse.
KUSHIBO (responding to: After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back):
The entire world is doing that, because the breakthrough is worthy of that. And by “patting ourselves on the back” do you mean “resting on our laurels”? Because that ain’t happening either.
RESPONSE: First, let’s put Dr. Hwang’s towering achievement in proper context. Cloning a dog was just a continuation of genetic research that is already decades old. Using human stem cells is a worthy pursuit but no tremendous breakthroughs have yet materialized. I’m talking about premature congratulations when nothing much has yet been achieved.
KUSHIBO:
Dr. Hwang has repeatedly talked about how much his team helped and South Korea is setting up a research hub that includes research institutes from Japan, the US, Europe, and elsewhere. So where do you get the idea that Hwang or Korea are depicting him as “a lone genius who can do it alone”?
RESPONSE:
It’s not an idea; it’s a fact that Dr. Hwang was criticised for sharing the credit with his collaborators by the Korea #1 crowd. It’s also a fact that Dr. Hwang thumbed his nose at international conventions and was caught trying to lie about it. And it’s also a fact that the media and the citizens are now rallying around making excuses for him. Once again it’s Korea is right, the rest of the world is wrong.
KUSHIBO:
“I guess giving kudos to MBC for questioning a national icon would really put a dent in your mindless Korean hive theory, huh?”
This is known as a “straw man” attack - misrepresent someone’s position so as to attack the misrepresented opinion and thereby discredit the speaker. It’s basically a misguided attempt to win an argument by distorting the issues rather than adhering to the facts.
KUSHIBO:
“I think not getting the facts right is a far worse problem.”
I agree and I have made this point many times before. Unfortunately, in this country the “facts” are very subjective.
The facts are these:
Stem cell research is an invaluable area of study that the world cannot continue to ignore, so scientific research will eventually proceed with or without Hwang. The US will eventually surge ahead and Britain and other nations will as well.
But because for the time being there are sensitive issues, global scientists need to consider and adhere to international conventions whether they like it or not.
Rallying behind Dr. Hwang amounts to a hill of beans. Damage control will not work. True contrition and international outreach is the answer.
Buduk’s comment about “proprietary methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate” is stupidity. Pardon the pun but why would a responsible member of the scientific community “put all his eggs in one basket?”
KUSHIBO:
“As soon as he did something that the pro-life crowd was against, it was a matter before a blunder was revealed. ”
RESPONSE:
It’s not a pro-life issue, Kushibo.
Oh, yes it is. And long before Hwang’s ethical problems came to light, I called Baduk on it.
It’s an ethical issue for many reasons, including the danger to the doners eggs that can even be life endangering.
In any medical procedure there is a potential danger. There’s a potential danger to the donor during collection, to any recipient, and to those of you who believe any fertilized egg is a human being, to the cells in the early embryonic stage (which is very heavily a pro-life argument).
But this is true of a wide array of old and new procedures which receive very little of the opposition from political action groups.
In the case of cloning, pro-life groups are using the focus on what are common and manageable risks in medical procedures (providing the donors, for example, are informed) because they are trying to reach a wider audience (by focusing on the non-pro-life portions of the argument in the case of cloning and stem cells when they do not do the same in other medical issues with no pro-life component) to get support for what their final goal (the pro-life position of a ban on cloning and stem cell research).
This is similar to how far-leftist “chinbo” groups in Korea, whose aim is the elimination of US Forces and an end to the ROK-US relationship (two things unpalatable to the vast majority of Koreans), try to whip up support for their causes by couching them in more moderate terms about issues that even pro-USFK and pro-US people might respond well to (e.g., making sure USFK personnel face justice for their wrongdoing, protecting Korean markets perceived to be still weak, etc.).
Like it or not, Koreans cannot thumb their noses at international ethical standards and conventions without reparcussions and pleading ignorance is no excuse.
I totally agree with you. My point from the beginning is not that Dr. Hwang did nothing wrong; apparently he did. My point was that his wrongdoing was not so severe that he, or Korea’s clonging industry, is now out of the game.
This is a ten-yard penalty, not a red card (sorry for mixing sports metaphors). It’s also a message that Hwang and the Korean players have to clean up their act to remain leaders in the future.
KUSHIBO (responding to: After a single “breakthrough”. we were already patting ourselves on the back):
The entire world is doing that, because the breakthrough is worthy of that. And by “patting ourselves on the back” do you mean “resting on our laurels”? Because that ain’t happening either.
RESPONSE: First, let’s put Dr. Hwang’s towering achievement in proper context. Cloning a dog was just a continuation of genetic research that is already decades old.
As I heard so many times growing up: If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
It’s a continuation, yes, but it’s still a major development. The cloning of a specific stem cell line for a non-healthy individual, however, is much less routine than this and probably represents the greater breakthrough.
Using human stem cells is a worthy pursuit but no tremendous breakthroughs have yet materialized. I’m talking about premature congratulations when nothing much has yet been achieved.
Maybe I should get Mintyclorets to draw a cartoon of a caveman showing off the wheel he just carved out of stone, and another caveman named Mizar5 shaking his head and going, “Yeah, but what can you do with it?”
Breakthroughs are rarely instantaneous in their application. The Salk vaccination, for example, took some time before its benefit (and related developments) could really be used for maximum benefit.
This is a major step that will take some time before it can be fully utilized, but without this major step, nothing at all would be happening. The first human embryonic stem cells customized to sick patients IS A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT, despite the fact that we aren’t yet curing Parkinson’s, spinal chord injuries, or Alzheimer’s.
KUSHIBO:
Dr. Hwang has repeatedly talked about how much his team helped and South Korea is setting up a research hub that includes research institutes from Japan, the US, Europe, and elsewhere. So where do you get the idea that Hwang or Korea are depicting him as “a lone genius who can do it alone”?
RESPONSE:
It’s not an idea; it’s a fact that Dr. Hwang was criticised for sharing the credit with his collaborators by the Korea #1 crowd.
Maybe I misunderstood your original sentence, then, but wouldn’t that be an example of NOT acting like a genius who can do it alone?
It’s also a fact that Dr. Hwang thumbed his nose at international conventions and was caught trying to lie about it.
As I mentioned before with the UCI link, I think you and other critics are over-estimating how much of a red mark this is going to be on Dr. Hwang, while underestimating how much this happens elsewhere. Dr. Hwang will probably never win a Nobel Prize now (not that he was a shoo-in), but he is not out of the picture.
The accusations and the confessions were related to obtaining materials, not technological innovation. Even Dr. Schatten “emphasizes that the science behind the 2004 paper documenting the derivation of stem cells from cloned human embryos remains, to his knowledge, reliable.”
And it’s also a fact that the media
So MBC is not part of the media?
and the citizens are now rallying around making excuses for him. Once again it’s Korea is right, the rest of the world is wrong.
Yeah. That’s what this is all about, isn’t it?
KUSHIBO:
“I guess giving kudos to MBC for questioning a national icon would really put a dent in your mindless Korean hive theory, huh?”
This is known as a “straw man” attack - misrepresent someone’s position so as to attack the misrepresented opinion and thereby discredit the speaker. It’s basically a misguided attempt to win an argument by distorting the issues rather than adhering to the facts.
No, I am attacking your argument. Several times your argument has made mention of “Koreans doing this” or “Koreans thining that,” and I am making the point that the only way this works is by ignoring at least one major Korean player in this news piece.
KUSHIBO:
“I think not getting the facts right is a far worse problem.”
I agree and I have made this point many times before. Unfortunately, in this country the “facts” are very subjective.
Sometimes yes. And not unlike many other countries (including the U.S., which is involved in a major war now over subjective facts). What’s your point?
The facts are these:
Stem cell research is an invaluable area of study that the world cannot continue to ignore, so scientific research will eventually proceed with or without Hwang. The US will eventually surge ahead and Britain and other nations will as well.
Are you saying the US will surge ahead of where it is now (a questionable point, especially if the Religious Right has anything to say about it), or that they will surge ahead of everyone else? If it is the latter, on what basis?
But because for the time being there are sensitive issues, global scientists need to consider and adhere to international conventions whether they like it or not.
Yes, they do. Like conducting research on human subjects without consent and prescribing fertility drugs that had not yet been approved by the government. Or soliciting donations from patients being considered as candidates for clinical trials. Or using blood samples for research without authorization and mistreating laboratory animals. Or selling parts from donated cadavers. Or misspending funds intended for research in some other areas.
Hwang, nor the rest of the country, is alone, and that is going to be a major factor in his resurrection, as long as his technological achievement is sound.
Rallying behind Dr. Hwang amounts to a hill of beans. Damage control will not work. True contrition and international outreach is the answer.
I’m not rallying behind him. MBC certainly isn’t rallying behind him. People I’ve talked to are mixed on the issue. Mainly I’m saying that this transgression is not the indelible scarlet mark that some are making it out to be.
Buduk’s comment about “proprietary methods that nobody else in the world can duplicate” is stupidity.
Actually, he has a point. At some point if this is not re-duplicated (either by others or by Hwang’s own people in a way that is useful), then it will be questioned. Remember cold-fusion?
Kushibo, nice responses. I look forward to many interesting conversations.
I’ve worked for years for major “western” medical company and we did experiments on staff ALL THE TIME.
Why? Because otherwise it would take over a year for the luddite “ethics” approval to do a 5 week test.
Real people don’t give a shit what the self appointed, technology hating, public teat sucking goodie two shoes declare as being ethical or not. We can make our own mind up if something is right or not.
This won’t change. He was just dumb enough to get caught.
“The US will eventually surge ahead and Britain and other nations will as well.”
If that’s true, they would have surged ahead by now. But the fact of the matter is, the governments in those countries are handcuffing their scientists. They talk about no-one being to able duplicate outside of Korea so the whole thing becomes questionable. Wrong. Nobody can duplicate them outside of Korea because no-one is allowed to duplicate them without being punished. With all its faults, it’s refreshing to see Korea plowing ahead and not get mired in all these philosophical ‘ethics’ argument. Unless the Americans and the British free their scientists, most of the breakthroughs will continue to come from Korea, with Korea getting all the windfall if and when there are real breakthrough cures. Those same lamers who are criticizing stem research, will be the first ones in the line to get the latest cure for the ailments. Then you will know what hypocrisy truely mean.
“I’ve worked for years for major “western” medical company and we did experiments on staff ALL THE TIME. Why? Because otherwise it would take over a year for the luddite “ethics” approval to do a 5 week test.”
EXACTLY. This kind of stuff goes on everywhere and all the time. There would have been no controversy if Hwang had invented popcycles. It had nothing to do with Korea being corrupt, cheating, or any other symbolisms of Korea that Hwang is accused of representing. He got caught through a technicality.
Dr.Hwang is selling a promise. Promise of disease-free world, even when the most optimistic zealots know the stem cell research if successful may cure only a handful of diseases.
Neary all Korean research money is going to him. Building with his name attached. Internation bank of stem cell lines,etc. Not much left for the rest of Korean researchers who are working on traditional biological/medical research. Koreans are “putting all their eggs in Hwang’s team”. As Hwang goes, so goes the future of Korea. It is either boom or bust.
Why don’t they use that money and manpower for more systematic research. In DNA sequencing. In developing a better delivery methods. In making anti-virus drugs and new anti-biotics.
I do not trust Hwang. And, his so-called discoveries which have not been verified outside of his lab. His media circus. His political ambition(now, he can run for congress). His dictatorical style. But, most of all, he is a known liar! He has repeatedly lied to journal reporters and to Schatten.
Korea can do without Hwang. It is not safe to put all their money behind just one man who has been proven to lie frequently. A unbiased third party verification of his methods and results are desperately needed.
BTW, thank Kushibo for the link. The things I wrote then(six months ago) are pretty much pertinent now. I must taking some credit for calling Dr.Hwang to be a liar when I was the only voice in the wilderness. It has been only six months, but to me it feels like eons ago.
“With all its faults, it’s refreshing to see Korea plowing ahead and not get mired in all these philosophical ‘ethics’ argument.”
I support stem cell research. Yet, the comment above is the product of a savage, 3rd rate mind. Ethics is not basketweaving. Ask the ghosts of Aushwitz…Ethics matters.
“PMc” your surety and arogance alone is enough to make one pause and wonder because when medicine and money mix, the result can be bad in subtle ways. You do not seem to acknowledge that. Even though I’m familar with the group stupidity that can overtake any honest effort in governance, what happens if one leaves the ethics to someone in a lab coat that wants the money?
I agree with R. Elgin. What PMc describes is exactly why oversight is necessary. Nevertheless his point is still valid: it does happen with enough frequency that the the “shock” of the scientific community over Hwang’s revelations are mostly for show.
Again, by way of illustration, look at the string of problems at the UCI Health Sciences department (listed at the bottom of this link). After just the first or second incidents, you would think that the place would have been closed down or federal funds would have dried up, but they didn’t. And sadly, the UCI med people did not learn their lesson.
And these are cases where, now at least, people may have actually DIED (!). Far more serious results than people giving up some of their eggs.
[Someone sent me an email asking me why I'm beating up on UCI, but that's not what I'm doing. I loved that school, I learned a lot, and someday I would like to go back there, but this is just an illustration of real problems that are well-known to the public.]