Oh boy, there’s an original thought. Never heard that allegation before.

That horse is dead, baduk. You can stop beating it now.

Bush only included NK in the Axis of Evil because Iraq, Iran and Libya(somewhat of threat at the time)were Islam countries. He did not want to appear anti-MiddleEstern.

The US is re-aligning her posture at this point. Pulling troops out of Europe and Asia. And, from Korea. The pentagon is doing it. It has nothing to do with what Koreans do or say.

The US is concentrating in MiddleEast. Why? Oil. Oil is the civilization. Oil is the ultimate resource, maybe more important than food. Is America evil in this pursuit? No, just practical. I support President Bush’s effort one hundred percent. Go USA!

2)It is the will of the Korean people: No, I disagree. For someone who have lived in Korea for a long time, you still cannot “read” people. As I am predicting, Koreans do change overnight. Just wait and see.

3)It is cultivating Japan to take on its role of regional watchdog: Yes, I agree. Whenever Koi goes to Yasukuni, he is actually working for the US. And, Japan will buy mucho weapons. Ten times that of Korea? Great news for defense companies. And, if Japan and China go to war, the US can pay back the national debt. $2000 per month Social Security payment for all Americans!

4) USFK isn?€™t leaving a security gap; that would only mean they would have to come right back again: This is where you lose me. Are you kidding? Really? If the US is to come right back, why would it leave in the first place? Just to see what happens? Is it a test of some kind?

And yes, there are difficulties in filling many of those slots with the pull towards Iraq. No, I am not going to go into details of how I know that on a blog, but it?€™s not hard to see.

The DoD is using civilians and contractors worldwide to fill support positions and even traditional military ones (interrogation, security, etc.). It?€™s a DoD trend, and Korea is no different.

I agree that there is not much use in discussing it much further.

We reduce greensuiters by 13,000, but USFK is currently hiring 62 civilians, and you noted that they are having a difficult time filling these slots [though I don't recall you mentioning how you knew that], and somehow these numbers will even out in the end and the books will look good?

I think I got it now.

Perhaps, it’s best if you and I just agree to disagree. We’re both speaking past each other it seems and others will not wish to read this much longer, if they’ve made it this far.

I’ve read your blog, you do good work, and you’ll get no disrespect from me on that. If you detect a smart-ass attitude in my scribblings, well, that has been there since the 60s, and it isn’t likely to disappear anytime soon. Twenty years of living and working in Korea have also helped cement it permanently into place.

Anyway, you have signed off for the night, and I need to leave as well. I’ll be out for the next couple of days and look forward to future discussion, warts and all.

Have a great weekend. The last word is yours, my friend…

See you on the next thread. Who knows, we may end up agreeing on the next one.

Here’s the critical language. Please let me know if this lacks enough clarity for you.

“Effective upon receipt, Eight US Army will impose a hiring freeze on all KN appropriuated and non-appropriated fund positions, and all US appropriated fund positions to minimize impact of RIF due to funding shortfalls. UNC, CFC, and USFK headquarters will also implement this hiring freeze.”

Exceptions to the policy are authorized, hence the whopping 62 jobs you noted on the website, but hiring approval must be granted by the commander.

Any more questions?

USFK pulling out of South Korea would probably been a boon for the US military arms producers, as well as the French, Brits, Israelis, and Russians.

South Korea would not just sit and wait for the North to march South. They would increase their defense budgets big time and buy tons of stuff.

Right now, they can keep their defense budgets low because the US is supplying what extra they need for a deterent to the North.

As for the great arms exporting mantra. So what?

I think Rwanda pointed out that human social nature doesn’t need F-16s and smart bombs or even M-16s to produce large scale slaughter.

So, if you want to build a convincing argument that without the US arms industry producing what it has, the world would have been a much safer, peaceful place, go ahead.

It sure as heck isn’t a given…….

Let me be very clear; stop the red herrings. If you don?€™t understand something ?€“ and there is ample evidence for that ?€“ ask, but don?€™t fabricate some fact/position and take me completely out of context to try to debate against that imaginary fact/position. Clear?

Where did I say I made a ?€?single?€™ visit to Pyoengteak?
Answer: I didn?€™t say that.
I said, ?€?I was there this summer scouting sites.?€™

It was the summer. You know, the hot part of the year. The entire area. Hence ?€?scouting.?€™ The fact that you somehow read a ?€?single?€™ trip into that, after reading again ?€?carefully,?€™ is?€? telling.

You then based the rest of your ill-reasoned post on that mistake. That?€™s not a good thing.

Then again, you also stated that there is a U.S. and local job freeze due to draw-down, but were wrong on both counts (U.S. civilians and contractors are being hired, and the local freeze is due to an entirely different reason), and that information could have been found by reading a newspaper.

If you don?€™t get the basic logistics, fine, I?€™ll try to bring it down a few notches.

USFK is there as the ?€?tripwire,?€™ which in this case means a combat role itself and to facilitate the massive influx of more troops in the event of war. So the infantry, armor, air, etc. have their own combat missions separate from the influx support role of USFK. Two overall separate missions (combat and support for incoming elements). Got it?

This is as simple as it can be put and still be coherent:

1.) Both those missions share some support resources. Therefore, if one of those missions is drastically reduced (e.g. combat troops/armor), the support cannot be proportionally reduced since it would detract from the other mission whose requirements have not changed.

2.) If all the combat troops/armor/air was removed, the other mission would still be there. So if all the support was removed with all the combat troops, the other mission could not be accomplished.

3.) Putting it together; it means there is a point after which proportional reductions in support are impossible to implement without degrading the influx mission.

Remember, no need to apologize, just pay attention and don?€™t take people out of the obvious context as you have been doing with me. It seems you may not be aware of a lot going on there, so please stow the smart-ass attitude. Thanks ahead of time.

Well, it?€™s late where I?€™m at so I?€™m signing off.

So, let me see if I have this straight. Please feel free to comment and correct me if I?€™m wrong.

Based on a single visit to Pyongtaek that you made last summer, during which you contend you counted more civilian suits than military uniforms, you are convinced, and would also have the rest of us believe, that there is an unannounced plan [a conspiracy, perhaps] to take the military war-fighter, conflict deterring positions in USFK [that have been scheduled for removal from the peninsula] and turn them over to the civilian/contractor counterparts. And that in the end, despite reducing USFK troop strength by a one third [nearly 13,000 military personnel] and closing upwards of 40 installations over the course of five years, at the end of that time USFK end strength will be about the same because USFK will simultaneously be increasing its need for civilians of all kinds. The purpose of this plan you declare to be to ?€œmake the books look good.?€?

So, while USFK may be sending tank drivers, helicopter pilots, infantry and artillery men back to locations all over the globe, they are secretly hiring civilian contractors to either conduct or support these missions, which plan may result in USFK having even greater numbers in a few years than it has now.

And you formed these conclusions based on a single ?€œscouting?€? visit to a single military site on a single day last summer. You were led to your conclusions by noting the number of civilian suits in the crowds you saw that day, and you attribute the greater number of civilian workers not to any number of factors such as military field exercises which would have drained off many of the uniformed troops during that time, or to a civilian training meeting that may have been happening that day, or to different work schedules which would have caused more civilians to be on the streets at the same time as you, or to simple observation bias [we see what we?€™re looking for] or to any number of other factors, but rather you attribute this noted difference to a rapid and heretofore unannounced buildup in civilian workforce strength on the Korean peninsula.

Really. I think you should report this to your Congressman right now. Who knows what other shenanigans USFK might be up to.

Then, when I questioned your conclusions your fallback position is that military slots all over the world are being replaced by civilians, yet you point this out without being able to name a single slot in Korea that has recently been ?€œcivilianized?€? where its CONUS counterpart has not.

You know what? I think we have hashed out this thread as far as we can go. It?€™s clear your numbers are flawless based on your in depth research and keen observations. There is little left now to discuss. Good day.

Moving back to the topic at hand….

Exactly how many civilian helicopter mechanics do you need in Korea when your squadron moves its helicopters to Colorado and Alaska?

How many civilian gate security guards and landscaping crews do you need when you close 40 installations over a five year period?

How many civilian barbershops, school crossing guards, mail clerks, secretaries, wire splicers, or building custodians do you need when your force goes from 38,000 to 25,000 and you consolidate onto less than two dozen installations?

Yes, Pyongtake is building up. Duh, it’s getting ready for the oft-predicted never-implmented Yongsan Relocation to happen. Units that don’t leave Korea are moving there. And yes, that may require the hiring of some civilian bodies since not every civilian is able or wiling to pick up stakjes and follow the camp. No doubt. But what do you suppose happened to the 213 civilians who use to work at Camp Page? Still there you think? Just waiting and wondering where the troops went?

There’s no specially designed “replace-greensuiters-with-civilians” plan happening in Korea. That’s a macro DOD thing that has been going on for years. It has no special relevance here that it doesn’t also have in North Carolina. You can’t use that as an escape.

Korea is simply losing troops, and with it losing the civilian support staff that has absolutely no reason to be here without the troops. That story hasn’t featured in the local news.

Or are you really trying to suggest that all those closed camps still have open gyms, fully functional offices with secretaries and properly installed and maintained automatoin equipment, and of course the grass is being clipped nice and short every Friday?

It hits the local economy hard when troops leave, but it may just hurt even harder when civilians leave; at least on a per capita basis.

When troops leave, we’re mostly talking about enlisted folks who sleep in the barracks on base and may play downtown on the weekends once or twice a month. When civilian support staff leave you’re talking about tens of millions in lost revenue for local landlords. Plus all the money spent on the economy by families living off post.

Just the civilian staff in Yongsan accounts for 50 million dollars US tax dollars per year in local rental costs. Every civilian above GS-9 lives off post and Uncle Sam pays through the nose for their apartments.

With troops reductions, and simultaneous civilian support staff reductions, landlords are going to suck wind for a while trying to fill their places.

It’s visible all around us here. Why aren’t you seeing that?