UPDATE: Will Seoul cancel a summit meeting with Prime Minister Koizumi over this? My money says no, but I guess we’ll have to see.
ORIGINAL POST: Here we go again:
Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi paid homage on Monday at a shrine for war dead seen by critics as a symbol of Japan’s past militarism, drawing a swift protest from South Korea and certain to outrage China as well.
Japan’s relations with its neighbors have already chilled because of Koizumi’s annual visits to Tokyo’s Yasukuni shrine, where war criminals convicted by an Allied tribunal are honored along with the nation’s 2.5 million war dead.
The South Korean reaction was prompt:
South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon, however, swiftly summoned Japanese ambassador Shotaro Oshima to complain.
“We strongly protest the visit to Yasukuni shrine despite our request and strongly urge that it is not repeated,” Ban said.
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And, this after an Osaka court ruled his visits unconstitutional.
A BBC article said, the ROK government called these visits the most serious obstacles to ROK-japan relations. That’s a convenient crutch, but PM Koizumi keeps handing it to Beijing, Seoul, and Pyongyang. There was a terrific opportunity to wrong-foot the entire region missed. If only the DPJ had won….But, really like 2004 in America, I bet all the foreign anger directed at Koizumi only emboldened the Japanese to give him his mandate. There’s a lesson here about the virtues of shutting up.
I still say, though, that postal privatization will do more good for the region than anything the LDP does or doesn’t do with the constitution. Even in the form Koizumi put forward, eceonomic reforms provide South Korea with good models for SK reform.
I agree with regard to the economic reforms.
To be fair this visit was done in a personal capacity. So there shouldn’t be any constitutional conflict there.
I guess spats like these are better than cutting all economic ties, something the Roh administration doesn’t have the balls to do.
The Confident Nationalist
With his postal privatization reform bill firmly in hand, I guess we all hoped Japan PM Koizumi would take a hint, but in 15 minutes he will visit Yasukuni Shrine. So much for the theory, that visits were taken to…
The Confident Nationalist
Update: He did it in a gray suit. But, who’s lamer, Koizumi or the ROk government for protesting? With his postal privatization reform bill firmly in hand, I guess we all hoped Japan PM Koizumi would take a hint, but in 15 minutes he will visit Yasuku…
?We strongly protest the visit to Yasukuni shrine despite our request and strongly urge that it is not repeated,??
Yawn…
I must have missed it - who appointed South Korea supreme poobah of Asian affairs?
Nomad,
It’s a position which comes automatically whenever a bear turns into a person, marries a god, and has children which for a new nation. The next asian nation this happens to will take over being the grand poobah of asian affairs.
zzzzzzzzzzz….koizumi…militarist bastard…blah blah blah…
Let me get this right:
- South Korea wanting to be cozy with Kim-Jong-Il (millions starved and counting) is OK…..
- but Japan’s leader can’t make a visit to a graveyard with Kim-Jong-Il-wannabe’s is *not* OK.
Right…….
I find it funny that the expat always claims the moral highground but can’t seem to escape the gutter from which he hails. No matter, his opinion does not count here.
My advice for Korea is to sit back and watch the show that will soon unfold between China and Nippon.
‘I’d eat my own shit just to get back at Koreans!’ garden variety expat.
Why wouldn’t an expat’s opinion count? After all, Koizumi is honoring war criminals against whom the men of Australia, Canada, the U.S., Great Britain, etc. fought and died fighting. I’d think that Koreans are not the only ones with the right to protest a visit to Yasukuni.
The Japanese Ambassador should have politely declined Ban’s summons with the obervation that Kozuimi’s visits are a domestic matter.
dogbert:
Unfortunately, many high-rank officials and military men from countries you named are frequent visitors to Yasukuni. Even the blue eyes know how to respect other cultures and the war deads (enemies or friends).
I’m not claiming any side in this, just pointing out that the gov’t of South Korea can both:
- beg to be nice to an on-going psycho-path (Kim Jong Il), and
- complain about someone else’s gov’t is paying homage to it’s own, lesser (and dead) psychopaths
That’s pretty blatant, even by American standards….
Nulji is right. Korea should just sit tight and let China and Japan duke it out. Korea is a light weight. Let these two heavy weights wound each other. Then, Korea may become the strongest nation in the area. I remember this is how Lucky Luciano got into power in the fifties.
Next Korean administration will be different. Instead of engaging in these useless endeavors, they will be smart and only do things that make money.
Koreans should appear to bring peace to the region. Like China is trying to bring NK and the US into a meeting. Meanwhile, it is telling NK to fight the US and supply NK with oil. Korea should have the same type of hypocracy.
Korea should invite these two leaders, Koi and the Chinese, to Seoul in the pretext to diffuse Yasukuni misunderstanding. At the same time, she should feed information each party to anger them. Let them fight each other. It is good for Korea.
I bet all the foreign anger directed at Koizumi only emboldened the Japanese to give him his mandate. There?s a lesson here about the virtues of shutting up.
I concur.
No, the Korean government can’t tell the Japanese what to do, since it’s a “domestic affair” to echo the Marmot. However, the Korean government can always express disapproval and protest (”urging” is not quite the same as “telling”). If the German chancellor started “paying homage” to Hitler and other war criminals responsible for countless lives of Jews and Europeans, do you think the Brits, French, and Israelis should just keep their mouths shut?
I personally don’t care whether Koizumi goes to Yasukuni, since I personally don’t think he really is a “rightist”, he doesn’t seem at all to be an anti-koreanist; his just trying to buy right-winger votes. My bigger concern is how the right-wing interest in Japan seem somewhat mainstream interest.
I also do wonder how many people who feel a sense of disgust at Ban Ki Moon’s protest think about US Congressman’s letter to SK officials concerning civil protests surrounding DM’s statue. So the question is, is the fact that they are getting involved in “domestic” matters of other countries that is the problem, or just plainly that the issue in question is the problem.
I personally think countries have a legitimate need and reason to discuss internal affairs of other nations as long as they don’t interfere with the electoral process. (i.e. China doing missile exercises next to taiwan during election time vs. US’ history of staying very quiet concerning ROK elections)
The lower Roh’s favorable rating, the more of a chance a summit will be canceled. Let me check…..his numbers are REALLY low, expect a cancellation. Nothing will get a Korean politicians numbers going up like good old Japan bashing.
“If the German chancellor started ?paying homage?? to Hitler and other war criminals responsible for countless lives of Jews and Europeans, do you think the Brits, French, and Israelis should just keep their mouths shut?”
While Koizumi claims his visits are personnal, I highly doubt he is going there to pay homage to Japanese war criminals. There are others there to pay homage to other than the few war criminals there.
China and Japan are not going to duke it out because the Chinese leadership values pragmatism above ideology. Remember the anti-Japanese demonstrations around China a couple of years ago? Displeased with the destruction and public expression of anti-Japanese sentiments, the Japanese government hinted at economic repercussions. The Chinese government called off the demonstrators after a month of demos and threatened to jail anyone who disobeyed the edict. In the end, China will put its economic relationship with Japan above any resentment of Japan’s glorification of its militarist past.
Sonagi,
I dunno… it’s hard to say. Sometimes when I talk to my Chinese friends, their take on things on anything Japanese is sometimes worse than what the kids say in ROK. And I know that things like this sort of runs off on its own, and becomes a monster that the government can no longer control… If I see Chinese soccer fans getting rowdy at SK, a country they traditionally don’t fear, how much more would they get peeved at Japan? The Vicki Zhao flag-fashion incident makes me think twice…
I’m sure Chinese technocrats would rather do things differently, but from what I hear, noone in Nanjing drives Japanese cars.
Sonagi,
You don’t know much about Asian sentiment. The Chinese are still at the Boxer Rebeillion level. They have not advanced much in sophistication.
With a Japanese racist like Koi, the Chinese will be inflamed. And, knowing that they have a better military than Fuji mountain Pygmies, the Chinese will strike. Koi is doing a good job in getting “Center of the Earth people” angry.
The Chinese will pay back for WWII and Nanjing. The Japanese’d better apologize. Yet, these islanders keep insisting that they have done nothing wrong (and that they would do it again). Koi is dangerous for Japan but great for Korea.
Self-Serving And Self-Defeating
ATOs Hisane Masaki frames the question concerning Japans PM Koizumis visit to Yaukuni Shrine yesterday in the right way: with Japanese public opinion divided, or apathetic, why should Koizumi listen to Seouls and Beijing#82…
Nulji:
here’s my reply from the gutter. Better the trenches than the putrefying air where your nose is stuck!
http://www.infidelworld.net/ic.....php#000359
I highly doubt he is going there to pay homage to Japanese war criminals. There are others there to pay homage to other than the few war criminals there.
But he has never said that.
Baduk,
What is the Asian sentiment? Do Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Thais, Vietnamese, Malaysians, Indonesians… all think alike? I lived in China for four years and Korea for nine, and I was struck more by the differences between the Chinese and the Koreans than the similarities.
The Chinese, unlike bush, understand that war sucks money from the economy. They are very focused on national development. Chinese government economists have estimated that it will take 50 years for China to reach the level of Korea and 80 years to become a fully developed country.
There were something like 10,000 illegal demonstrations last year. Most them were bread and butter issues like speculators forcing farmers off their land (thanks to eminent domain, this happens in the US, too) and local government corruption. Crooked party chiefs anger the masses a lot more than Japanese politicians who kowtow to rightwing nationalists.
China’s isn’t going to strike at Japan; they can’t even use their military to force Taiwan back into the fold.
Let’s add insult to injury, so to speak.
UP
Does anybody remember what they discussed at the last semi-annual meeting? If there is no important topic to be exchanged between Roh and Koizumi, why would they continue doing so? He is busy selecting his successor.
look, no matter how hard you expats try to justify the japanese pm visiting a shrine that houses class a war criminals, you’ll never convince me.
this yasukuni thing is a very simple matter; the leader of the second largest economy in the world should not be visiting a shrine that houses those architects who were guilty of mass murder. you can try and justify that if you want to stoop so low, but don’t exect me to buy your trash.
with that in mind, let’s look at some of the arguments many of you spew at asians.
‘it’s an internal affair of japan.’
well, no, it is not. you see, the the shrine pays homage to those war criminals who killed people of OTHER nations. if the japanese pm payed homage to war criminals who simply killed their own, then it would be an internal matter.
‘the pm did not pay homage to war criminals, just the soldiers.’
doesn’t matter. the shrine deifies angus grade thugs. the pm lends support to an institution that glorifies death just by walking into the place.
‘the pm is a private citizen when he visits the shrine.’
that doesn’t matter because i don’t buy the argument. the pm is pm 24 hours a day.
‘japan won’t pay a price.’
you’re wrong; it already has. japan has lost the chance to be the leader of asia. that’s too bad for japan and great news for china.
The dead are always fair targets in Korea. And obsessing over dead history is one of the top Korean pastimes as well as one of the top 10 Korean dysfunctions.
Seriously, why the fuck would anybody object to honoring their war dead? Fellow Koreans, this is the 21st century. No modern thinker harbors decades-old grudges anymore, no less century-old ones.
All the rationalizations for this dispicable Korean habit lead back to a single motivation: the need to blame others instead of facing ourselves.
If you have nothing better to do than curse the dead, one can only imagine how you treat the living.
You will know when Korea has finally arrived. That will be the time when 99% of Koreans wouldn’t give a hoot what some old nuts in Japan does and thinks. That would be the time when Korea doesn’t go into a national epileptic convulsion when Japan sneezes. The country would have really matured then.
The general in charge of the Japanese P.O.W. camps in the Philippines was Korean, and he was found guilty and hanged as a ?Class A?? war criminal. I am not sure, but he is probably also memorialized at Yasukuni.
Korea was a willing ally to Japan in the China and Pacific Wars, and Koreans were tried, imprisoned, and even shot as war criminals. However, in one way, Korea was lucky because the allies wanted to break up the Japanese Empire and needed an excuse to tear off Korea and Taiwan. The allies used the weak claims that Koreans were forced into the Japanese Empire as that excuse, even though the US and others had earlier supported Japan?s annexation of Korea, as did millions of Koreans themselves.
Koreans are lying to themselves and the world as they protest the visits to Yasukuni Shine. By joining with China to protest the visits, Korea is hoping for two things. The first thing is that Korea hopes to deceive the world into believing that she was a victim of Japan instead of her ally. The second is that she hopes to get on China?s good side by claiming sister victimhood. For now, China is going along with that charade because she wants to keep Korea and Japan divided.
I doubt few will agree but I’m confident that the rest of East Asia wouldn’t get so excited about the Yasukuni visits if Japan had ever really made the effort to admit its wrongs. If Koizumi didn’t get tears in his eyes when he talks about kamikaze and says he respects their spirit, maybe more people would believe him when he says he goes to Yasukuni to pledge his resolve that there should be no more war. Nothing about Koizumi and the Japanese right’s behavior in the last few years suggests they regret anything about the colonial/war years other than losing, so naturally their motives are left in doubt. Normally the Yasukuni visits shouldn’t be a problem, but in context they are loaded with symbolism.
Japan has paid billions of dollars in reparations, has apologized numerous times, has adopted a peace constitution, and has lived peacefully with her neighbors for the past sixty years, yet people like Oranckay still promote the Korean and Chinese lie that Japan has not “really made the effort to admit its wrongs.”
Besides, why is Japan the only country in Asia that is required to admit its wrongs? Others were allied with Japan, including Korea, but have they admitted their wrongs? Has Koreans admitted their wrongs? No, they make excuses.
The Chinese, the Russians, the Australians, and even the Americans committed war crimes against the Japanese, but have they admitted their wrongs? No, because it was war and they are the victors.
Stalin and Mao were as evil as anyone could be, yet they are still honored by Russia and China. Where are the protests against that?
In Korea, Kim Il-sung killed millions, yet South Koreans are bowing their heads at his statue and singing his praises. Where are the protests from the South Korean government? Why isn’t South Korea’s foreign minister demanding that North Korea admit her wrongs?
Kim Jong-il has blown up a Korean airliner, starved his people, and killed and imprisoned 10s of thousands, yet South Koreans are shaking his hand, hugging him, and laughing at his stupid jokes. Why isn’t Kim Jong-il being asked to admit his wrongs?
Koreans honor a man who murdered one of Japan’s greatest statesman, yet the Japanese are not demanding that Koreans stop honoring him. Why is the that? Because the Japanese are much farther along on the political evolutionary ladder than both the Koreans and the Chinese.
I think Korea still has a long way to go before she catches up with Japan in the maturity department.
Sonagi,
China keeps trying to eat up Taiwan. This is typical Asian thing. Hegemony. Power. Subjugation. Some European countries would just let people decide what they want. But, not the Chinese.
The Japanese have this too. They do not show to outsiders, but when they get together they talk about this subject- how they can beat Koreans and the Chinese militarily and how they will treat these people.
The Eastern society is not christian. It is based on “dog-eat-dog-philosophy”. China and Japan practice this evil philosophy. Koreans were the same, but now Christians are reforming Korean society.
GB,
Using your logic, I think we can come to the same conclusion about Germany, and to be perfectly fair, Germany had much more cultural crap shatted upon them(by which i mean hollywood movies etc), than the Japanese, at least, here in the United States.
So then, if the chancellor of Germany were to wear a nice red ribbon with swastikas on it, simply as a memorance of the patriotic martyrdom of German defenders, you would come to the same conclusion for them as for the Japanese? My conclusion, would be yes, you would. And I assume that you’d think I’m being an unfair turd for making the nazi analogy to rile up the beehive against you, but wouldn’t at least the analogy work? Or you might believe that somehow ribbons and burial grounds are somehow inherently different even if they are both used to remember the dead or some dead cause.
What if the chancellor wore the nice swastika ribbon as a private citizen instead of head of state? Becuase swastikas are evil symbols and the Yasukuni is a benign one established waaaay before Hirohito?
I say Nein. I do agree with you that the Japanese DO get unfairly shatted upon in more ways than one. But I DO think that in a better world Koizumi would have avoided that place. And maybe in a better world the Japanese Americans would get more attention about the racist plight they endured during WWII. And maybe Korean people will stop scapegoating all their ills on the Japanese or the Americans. But it’s hard to swallow an argument that visiting Yasukuni by Koizumi is not a tacit approval or at the least, aknowledgement of Japanese military culture at the time. At the very least, the right wingers who vote for him, will vote for him exactly because of this reason.
And in the end, it makes more sense that Korea/China will get more hyped up about this than vice versa, because the modern Japanese don’t have the immediate memory of getting their arses beaten by them. Quite the contrary.
The Eastern society is not christian. It is based on ?dog-eat-dog-philosophy??. China and Japan practice this evil philosophy. Koreans were the same, but now Christians are reforming Korean society. -baduk
always has been and probably always will be, unless there is an asian country primed for christianity as was korea (read oppressed, marginalized, saved from extermination, protected and built up by christian investor countries).
however, baduk, for all of the reform christians here have been responsible for, it’s not exclusive of the “dog-eat-dog philosopy” you refer to. korean christians practice the ?dog-eat-dog-philosophy?? within the framework of christianity and, like many other cultures (e.g., eastern european roman catholics in my experience), are able to bridge the gap between what would seem like mutually exclusive philosphies (or, more specifically, actions) in the world through grace and repentence.
you never expect the spanish inquisition.
monty python
“I highly doubt he is going there to pay homage to Japanese war criminals. There are others there to pay homage to other than the few war criminals there.”
“But he has never said that.”
You are right, he has never said why he is going there except for personal reasons. But again, I highly doubt it is for paying homage to war criminals. I really hope you are not saying he is going there to pay homage to those war criminals.
All the WWII Nazi analogies don’t work for me. That Nazi analogy is strictly regarding WWII and Nazism. There is never a mention of WWI in those analogies where the “good” guys and “bad” guys are less clear or any of the other wars Germany was in. Only the particular sin of Nazism and WWII are analogized. The Yasukuni shrine is an old shrine that stores the spirits of many soldiers from many wars. Not just the war criminals, not just the WWII soldiers, but many soldiers that have fought for Japan.
I’m also not convinced of this growing militarism in Japan and that Yasukuni is a symbol of that growing militarism. If he goes there and says he hopes for no more war and some people call Bullsh*t then I highly doubt anything he says will be thought of as anything other Bullsh*t. They have been a very peaceful people for over 60 years and the Japanese I know and talk with are peace loving people. Korea and China seem much more nationalistic and militaristic than modern day Japan. Both have larger armies and have used them. The way Koreans talk, it is just a matter of time the day of Japan’s plundering will return, and the invasion of Korea might just start tomorrow. Let’s not worry about North Korea’s nukes, past invasion, large army, and agenda to unify Korea by force. Japan with no nukes, a small army, and a peace constitution is much more troubling.
Why are Koreans angry over Nanjing, Tojo, or Emperor Hirohito? A-Bomb or any massacres are crimes against humanity, and I do understand (but don?t necessarily agree with) how the Chinese current regime views Japan and WW2. It?s sad to say but I also don’t expect too much from people like baduk and sonaji to understand Japanese philosophy or what Yasukuni is about.
Yasukuni protest, as a political card, is void and null. Don’t you realize by now that it is NOT Yasukuni itself fueling Japanese nationalism but the commies’ interventions in the internal affair of Japan? The uncontrollable and uncivilized riots are only revealing that the power and influences of the party are weakening. The former dynasties like Qin, Tang, Yuen, and Ming had all shared the same fate??it expanded until it becomes empty inside. On the contrary, Japan enjoys political and economical stability very much, and with resources flooding from elsewhere, there is no benefit for expanding into the undeveloped and unresourceful part of the Far Eastern continent.
As for Korea…, I think she should focus on nation’s prosperities and stop pulling others legs. It appears that the country is rapidly aging before building the foundation as a fully-advanced nation. Nothing is more pessimistic or unconstructive than waiting for China to collapse or for someday somebody would drop bombs onto Japan.
I don?t know what are you worried about….., but there is no doubt that Japan is the one of the most pacifist nations today. Even after seeing the exibit at Yasukuni, we don?t burn or stomp on the Stars and Stripes, you see : )
You are right, he has never said why he is going there except for personal reasons. But again, I highly doubt it is for paying homage to war criminals. I really hope you are not saying he is going there to pay homage to those war criminals
The point is that it doesn’t matter what his true intentions are. The fact that the leader of the Japanese people pays homage at a shrine where war criminals are included carries a “load of symbolism” as Oranckay mentions and is what matters. If he had made it clear that “no, I’m not here to pay homage to the criminals, just the other 90%+ of the dead” then that part of the symbolism could get subtracted. Unfortunately, he has not made such a gesture.
Let me restate my question. And I’d like to hear an answer from these people who either wave the issue away that “it’s just a domestic/internal affair” (which I find rather shallow, actually. Define domestic/internal affair first, please. I’m assuming Tiananmen Square and massacres in Rwanda don’t count as domestic/internal affairs), or give a conditioned response that it’s the Koreans/Korean government being ridiculous and immature again (and of course, there may also be a few people arguing that Japanese war criminals don’t count at all, but they can say all they want) :
If Gerhard Schr?Άder started to personally visit and pay homage at a memorial for thousands of dead Germans in which Hitler and other Nazi’s are included (and also has a museum justifying their war crimes) without ever stating whether he’s there for the latter or not, should Tony Blair and Jacques Chirac just sit on their asses and keep their mouths shut?
Wooj: “If Gerhard Schr?Άder started to personally visit and pay homage at a memorial for thousands of dead Germans in which Hitler and other Nazi?s are included … should Tony Blair and Jacques Chirac just sit on their asses and keep their mouths shut?”
Gerry: Americans and Australians were victims of Japanese and Korean war crimes, yet they are jumping up and down protesting the visits to the shine. Why? Because they see Koizumi going to the shine to honor war dead, not to honor war. In fact, Koizumi has repeatedly said that he goes there to pray for peace. He has even said that he recognizes the validity of the Tokyo war crimes trials, which is not something someone would say if they were going there to worship war criminals. That means Koizumi’s visits to the shine are helping to turn Yasukuni into a peace shine.
I think Koreans know that there is no evil intent on Koizumi’s part, but they protest to distance themselves for their role in World War II and to kiss up to China.
The Koreans are going to have to grow up and accept the visits because the Japanese are not going to stop them. The Japanese are honoring their war dead, just as Koreans honor theirs. Koreans demanding that the Japanese stop visiting Yasukuni Shine is like the Japanese demanding that Koreans to stop visiting Independence Hall. It is not going to happen.
Correction to my above post:
“Americans and Australians were victims of Japanese and Korean war crimes, yet they are NOT jumping up and down protesting the visits to the shine.”
Pretty impressive dodging and weaving of Wooj’s questions.
“Americans and Australians were victims of Japanese and Korean war crimes, yet they are jumping up and down protesting the visits to the shine. Why? Because they see Koizumi going to the shine to honor war dead, not to honor war.”
The real reason is because they just don’t care. Also one cannot ignore the fact that Western Europe minus Germany is historically, politically more powerful than China/ROK. Not to mention, that Germany is more “socially mature” than Japan.
Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps the Japanese prime minister makes highly publicized visits to the shrine because of, not in spite of, protests from China and Korea especially?
Sonagi,
You are correct. Japanese nationalism is alive and well, especially against Koreans and the Chinese.
This is what the Japanese want. Koi got overwhelming support in the last election. Now it is a payback time for him to his constituents who wants him to behave this way.
Going there for peace? I heard about a minister who frequented a cathouse to save women working there. He also bought women’s services to enhance their self-esteem and to show that he can respect them while in the middle of the act.
Yeah, Koi went to the temple to pray for peace.
Is an opinion like baduk?s largely accepted in Korea? I?m amazed reading such a hallucinated and unrealistic point of view??it?s almost funny.
War deads, Japanese and Korean-Japanese alike, had followed under the Japanese Commands, and ultimately sacrificed their lives to death. Even the war criminals were perished by the order of Tokyo Court, and thus, their souls are considered to be cleansed. Whatever they did in their lifetimes, these souls are equal by nature: pure but disturbed since the owners didn?t live and die naturally.
In Japan, those souls are the subjects of enshrinement and prayed for their calm and peaceful afterlives. Anything from heroes, anti-heroes, murderers and murdered, suicides, shipwreck or plane-crash victims, prematurely dead babies, those who opposed against the imperial family, Mongols, or even animals, bugs and monsters will be enshrined. Without enshrinement, these souls will be lost and unsettled: possibly causing Tatari - conflicts and wrong-doings against people and nature.
It is an absolute truth in Koizumi and bunches who are repeatedly stating that they are just praying for peace at Yasukuni. It is the act of pacifism and nothing to do with crimes of which some of these enshrined had committed, or the militaristic past/future of Japan. Shrines in Japan have many purposes but Yasukuni is just the place where war deads rest their souls and people pray for their calm eternity. If Japanese really wants to reinvade its neighboring countries, I would think they would choose to be at Hachiman Shrines, the home of vaisrava-like war god (re-incarnation of the 15th Emperor Ojin).
I know, in old Confucius states like China and Korea, criminals are criminals until their bodies are publicly humiliated (whipped, torn, left in cold, and even their tombs are smashed into pieces), but if you are not willing to accept this Japanese Religion(or more like philosophy), just ignore it and mind your own business. At least, culturally broadminded people from Australia, UK, the US, Russia, Taiwan, Germany, Italy, Vatican, France, Canada, Israel, Thai, Indonesia, Singapore, India, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Panama, Spain and many other countries understand it, and all these countries have sent their leaders, militarymen or high-rank officials to Yasukuni in order to honor war deads who once they fought against/with. For this, I, as a Japanese, have respects for these nations.
from Yasukuni jinja’s web site
“There is no uncertainty in history. Japan’s dream of building a Great East Asia was necessitated by history and it was sought after by the countries of Asia.”
I wonder whose historical theory this is. I also hope they can name that country rather than saying “the countries of asia”.
“Let us have greater love for “Our Japan” that the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja sacrificed even their lives to defend.”
Most wardeads in the Jinja didn’t fight for defence. Most of the wars waged by Japan during that time were for invasion.
“The last messages for this month
(the message skipped due to the length, read it at the website)
Yuzuru Sogabe Mikoto
Ensign, Japanese Navy
Second Ryusei Squadron, Kamikaze Special Attack Corps
Killed in Action on August 9, 1945 in the seas southeast of Honshu
Born in Ehime Prefecture Age: 21″
The last message means the letter sent to family before death by a solidier. This month’s message is from a 21 year old who was one of those kamikazes.
I don’t know how japanese see kamikazes but in today’s standards, Kamikaze is one of the most inhumane things that have happened in WWII. it’s not much different from today’s young suicide bombers by terrorist groups. this 21 year old boy was brainwashed and used by the militarism. how can they present this message on the top of the site without considering the meaning of kamikaze?
this Yasukuni Jinja simply explains the wardeads fought for today’s prosperous japan. the site is devoted to say the war but it never says explicitly the war was wrong. “it was regrettable but inevitable” is their point of view. visiting this institution means admitting what it says. that may be why japan’s neighbors are outraged by the visit.
personally i don’t want korean government protests too much. a statement will be enough. we know nothing will change the behavior of the prime minister who is majoritarily backed up by japanese. to make much noise is just a futile effort.
Apollo,
How do you feel about Nanjing? Or, about Tojo? Emperor Hirohito?
To denounce their evil, Koi goes to the temple? To respect the dead souls?
Meanwhile, he angers live(yet-undeparted) souls here on earth. Some angry souls dropped A-bombs in your land only fifty years ago. Some angry souls will do it again. Soon.
Much more disturbing than the enshrinement of Japanese war criminals and visits by prime ministers is the Museum of Lies and Distortions, aka the Yasukuni Museum. The 20th century display is a total whitewash of Japan’s aggression in East Asia.
The Rape of Nanjing is not mentioned at all. The brutal conquest of Shanghai is said to be Shanghai’s fault because Shanghai did not surrender. Honestly, that is exactly what is written in the museum’s display, a sickening example of blame the victim. Later, Japan blames the US for prolonging the war because the US insisted on an unconditional surrender. What a contradiction. China refused to surrender, so the attack was China’s fault. Japan refused to surrender, but the continuation of the war was not Japan’s fault; it was America’s. Of course, there is a big section on Japan as a victim of the atomic bomb.
How many millions of Japanese have walked out of this museum feeling that Japan was the real victim in WW II? Contrast this with the Museum of American History in Washington, DC, which includes lengthly displays on slavery and sections on discrimination against Asians in America.
Japanese visitors reading and ingesting this distorted view of history is far more damaging than some politician praying over dead soldiers.
Apollo, do YOU know what the Yasukuni Museum is all about? Have you been inside and seen the displays?
Apollo,
“Yasukuni protest, as a political card, is void and null.”
I mentioned this in a different thread as is talked about generally by others that attacking Japan is a popular way to gain popularity points in SK politics. I’m not sure that they are trying so much to “squeeze” anything out of Japan, because Japan was probably “squeezed” out already of anything they were willing to give. In fact, the culture of doing this is so ingrained and has run amok that even if Roh really wanted to take a concillatory position, he won’t be able to without serious political repurcussions. In other words, the Yasukuni political card is still a trump card.
And as Sonagi mentions that maybe prime minister koizumi does what he does because it spites Korean/Chinese nationalist elements and garner him some political points too.
I always new this sort of thing was a political auto-gratification exercise in Korea, but I honestly didn’t realize that it could be a circle-jerk session.
hehehe the japanese are secretly planning to take over asia one island at a time….with their powerful new weapon the tokyo sonynintendonizer they will take over the WORLD! BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
then again…the other asian countries have chinese soy sauce, LG,Samsung….
oh and if china and japan did have a war…wouldn’t korea be smack dab in the F*****king middle once again? in history….my friends korea needs another Admiral Lee Soon Shin….y this has anything to do with anything…don’t ask…
oh apollo and non-korean….
are you japanese nationalists…??? i want to know…………………………………………..what you don’t understand stand is that your brain is too small to comprehend what is really happening….to make a long story short…Japan, a country that was ridiculed all through time by both China and Korea, tried to take korea and china over….but ultimately failed until ww2. which with automatic guns against swords and old guns…yea…not very good…okay well koreans didn’t like that very well. Japanese did. they are like oh look we took them over what should we do? Oh i know les mistreat them!
Okay, now before you say “they deserved it” think of this… where did japanese swords come from? hmmm? Japan? WRONG! it was first created in the baekchae dynasty of korea. Where did the japanese learn to read and write some chinese? China? yea some but mostly through korea…hmm…pottery wonder where they got that? oh…Korea…the japanese castles hm… where did that style come from? china then it went through korea then finally japan… if koreans and chinese were so cruel to japan than we wouldn’t have fukin given you any of these technological advancements you dumbshits… now as i continue. Japan said they took over Korea. Sure they did but almost everytime they went up against the Korean Rebellion army they sort of lost… After the a-bomb was dropped on japan. japan had no chose to give up korea and every other asian nation they took over. Oh sure your like ” the japanese had samurais” hmm… the style of kendo “sword fighting” came from korea. Kumdo. Japan took over and korea had no voice in the world when it was occupied. So americans call it kendo. If you think the Japanese are smart then y the hell in korea catching up at an extremely fast rate? Now samsung is tied to sony! Internet gaming it is also tied between the countries.
Tell me do you like what admiral Lee soon shin did to japan?
submit 1 for yes or 2 for no
okay i’m done… i really don’t give a shit what apollo and what the other guy’s name is says. this is something you can read.
If he had made it clear that ?no, I?m not here to pay homage to the criminals, just the other 90%+ of the dead?? then that part of the symbolism could get subtracted. Unfortunately, he has not made such a gesture.
I would think that it is obvious to all that he is not there to pay homage to the war criminals. If he says he hopes for no more war while on his visit, it seems pretty obvious he is not there to honor those past war criminals who started a war. Also, in his last of MANY apologies, which are never good enough, he states:
“In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war.”
If after strong statements like that people still think he is there to honor war criminals, there is no sense in talking crazy people out of being crazy. People who want to hold onto their hate will certainly always find ways to justify that hate.
I have two questions
So do you really think he is there to honor the war criminals?????
If he had made it clear that ?no, I?m not here to pay homage to the criminals, just the other 90%+ of the dead?? then that part of the symbolism could get subtracted. Unfortunately, he has not made such a gesture.
I would think that it is obvious to all that he is not there to pay homage to the war criminals. If he says he hopes for no more war while on his visit, it seems pretty obvious he is not there to honor those past war criminals who started a war. Also, in his last of MANY apologies, which are never good enough, he states:
“In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war.”
If after strong statements like that people still think he is there to honor war criminals, there is no sense in talking crazy people out of being crazy. People who want to hold onto their hate will certainly always find ways to justify that hate.
I have two questions for you.
Do YOU really think he is there to honor the war criminals?????
Do you really think it would make a difference to people in China and Korea if he said explicitly ?I am not here to honor the war criminals of WWII.??
Sorry all for the two same comments in one post.
Do YOU really think he is there to honor the war criminals?????
I don’t know — which is the point. No one knows, and it is his actions that count for everything. And even if I had telepathic powers that enabled me to know that he was fantasizing about hentai vixens while pretending to pay his respects at the shrine all this time, I would still take issue with the fact that he was there.
Notice that you are centering your arguments on speculation, when the issue at hand are his actions. And “Not the way of the Force, to use five question marks,” says Yoda.
Do you really think it would make a difference to people in China and Korea if he said explicitly ?I am not here to honor the war criminals of WWII.??
I don’t know. But if he did, at least he is showing some sign of wanting to maintain sincerity.
You mention that his past apologies justify his actions, but I’d argue that it goes the other way around — his actions make one question the sincerity of his apologies. After all, you judge a man by what he does.
If he burns the Japanese WWII flag and Tojo’s effigy prior to entering the temple, I may believe him.
But, he won’t. He is there to honor Japan’s glorious past. And, he is there to tell his constituents that Japan can do it again.
There seems to be a big misunderstanding about Yasukuni. It commemorates all the dead who lost their lives to contribute to the nation since 20th century.
Even those who were killed in recent activities as a member of U.N. in 1990’s are commemorated.
Don’t call it “War shrine”.
Koizumi’s visit as an indivisual is guaranteed by constitution. Japanese people don’t have right to stop him.
Wasn’t Korean the very one who willingly killed Chinese people at WWII because it was the first time they can beat China. People say that Korean killed badly Chinese worse than Japaese souldiers. It’s time to investigate Korea’s crime.
Wasn?t Korean the very one who willingly killed Chinese people at WWII because it was the first time they can beat China. People say that Korean killed badly Chinese worse than Japaese souldiers. It?s time to investigate Korea?s crime.
Did you learn this “fact” at the Yasukuni Museum?
Scroll down to “Good Demo, Bad Demo” at the Japundit:
http://japundit.com/index.php
Could someone explain to me how to use the link button properly?
See, this is why both koreas and japan must be unified and ruled under me. I’d make the japanese pump out those PS3s and anime shows while the south koreans would make all those melodramas about love triangles. This would help fund my nuclear arsenal in north korea. I’d use those nukes to take over china. With china I’d have a monopoly over plastic toys which i could stuff with nukes and send to all the little kids. Muahahahaha SANTA WONT KNOW WHAT HIT HIM!!! Damn that bastard for not giving me my barbie doll!!….._ errrr….did i say barbie doll?….i meant kung fu grip G.I. Joe…._
hehehe Wooj, I knew you would use this as your next line of offense against Japan. Is it in some Korean playbook or something? First, complain about what the Japanese/or any other country says, or in this case might think. Second, if they say what we want, then complain about what they do. Third, if they do what we want, quickly think of something else to complain about. Classic. Absolutely classic.
Yoda says let go of your hate- the road to the dark side it is.
Liked the vixen comment.
The Korean education is at its height of ethno-centrism, and I feel sorry for such brainwashed people who don’t even care to respect neighboring cultures…
where did japanese swords come from? hmmm? Japan? WRONG!
I believe you are talking about Pommel Swords which first appeared in the former Han Dynasty of China (200AD), not in Baekche. The pommel was used by tying on soldier’s hand or belt with string in fighting on horse. The Pommel Sword quickly spread into today’s Pyongyang area, where the Han Dynasty established the colony known as Lelang commandery. When Lelang was crushed by Goguryeo in the early part of the 4th century, the manufacturing method of pommel swords reached the southern part of the peninsula and even Japan. Lelang?s influence was so huge in today?s Korea and Japan that the situations had dramatically changed by all mean. The pommel sword was just one of these.
The manufacturing method of Japanese Sword, on the contrary, is totally different from pommel sword. While its origin is unknown, the word, Tatara (method), sounds very similar to Tatar, the Turkish tribe known for iron-working. This Tatara method produces highly impure and carbonized metal. Unlike the pommel sword, Japanese sword is not made by casting, but rather created by very unusual way of smelting: the inner layer of soft metal is surrounded by heavily pounded outer-layer of harder metal, making blade flexible yet harder to break. You see, when you refer the word ?Japanese sword?? or ?Katana?? it?s not really about the shape but the way it produced.
Where did the japanese learn to read and write some chinese? China? yea some but mostly through korea??
Chinese Character of course was born in China, and as alphabet had spread from SE Europe and widely accepted in the entire European nations, nobody doubts that Chinese characters migrated from west to east. There’s nothing more pathetic than some of Far Easterners today abandoned Chinese characters and wouldn?t be able to read its own historical records…very sad.
…pottery wonder where they got that?
Japanese pottery, I’m sure, owes lot to Choseon pottery makers. Some of these folks had found the suitable porcelain clay which at the time was little known to Japanese.
But believe or not, the Japanese porcelains had gotten even more significant influence from China. When the Ming dynasty collapsed in 1644, a Dutch merchant brought (or replanted for vital trading purpose) one Chinese pottery worker from whom Sakaida Kakiemon learned the drawing and baking. In a few years, Kakiemon quickly mastered and developed the pure-red inking technique which was not even available in China.
You can obtain more information by searching a keyword “Kakiemon” by Google, but the beauty of Kakiemon was unique to Japan at the time, and influenced heavily to the Western pottery, such as Meissen. I do give a credit to Choseon pottery makers for finding clays. They were as useful as French truffle-hunting pigs (this is a joke).
the japanese castles hm?? where did that style come from?
You’ve never seen Japanese Castle? While the word “castle” in China and Korea is more like “fortress city”, Japanese Castle was closer to European castles, with the availability of structures such as Tenshukaku (the Keep). Unlike the most part of Asia, Japan didn’t have to protect the peasants since they traditionally fought over workforce, not the land itself. Burning and massacring, in my opinion, is very continental things.
hmm?? the style of kendo ?sword fighting?? came from korea. Kumdo.
Hahahaha. Bu-Do, Ju-Do, Iai-Do, Aiki-Do, Karate-Do, Cha-Do, Syo-Do, and Ken-Do… the word “Do” came from the fusion of Taoism and Zen. It wouldn?t be ?Do without this philosophy and practices. Any of these activities were passed down from a generation to generation that rules, methods, customs, wears and tools, and masters are all recorded though its history.
It’s so funny when Koreans try so hard to prove themselves that they were the origin to Japanese, but please go to the library first. The so-called Kumdo masters told at the court that Kumdo was a made-up legend in order to camouflage the very Japanese practices which they learned under the occupation, but didn?t want to abandon.
Tell me do you like what admiral Lee soon shin did to japan?
Lee Son Shin was a great commander for knowing its geography and how Japanese would fight. The ratio of Japanese army and navy was 10 to 1, and that was brilliant idea to crash transport ships so Japanese army in land wouldn’t be able to reach further into the Ming territory. It?s too bad he died while pursuing Shimadu after Japan and Ming made a pact????such an unnecessary loss, wasn?t it?
Wow all that and all I am advancing is Koizumi isn’t honoring war criminals and doesn’t have any diabolic plans on taking over Asia. Must be a Japanese nationalist if I think such ludicrous thoughts.
“you don?t understand stand is that your brain is too small to comprehend what is really happening??.to make a long story short??Japan, a country that was ridiculed all through time by both China and Korea, tried to take Korea and china over??.but ultimately failed until ww2.”
This small minded Japanese nationalist at least knows that Japan took over Korea decades before WWII. Oh and thank you for the invaluable knowledge that Japan and Korea are equal in internet gaming. Call me enlightened.
I feel like I have been discussing this issue all year around. But GBevers, I strongly recommend that you re-read the history.
Your MAKING-UP story that Korea was an ALLY of Japan during the WWII, was the one of the funniest ones I have ever heard in my life. hahahah
I recognize that Korea gets used to play a role of victim overly while staying retro, which I also feel is too much sometimes. And I am concerned about the rise of negative nationalism like anti-America or anti-Japan, which lead them a blind hate against “the others” without a rational thinking of, for example, what justification they might have in criticizing Japanese pm’s visiting Yasukuni.
However, I really wonder on the other hand, why Japanese politicians like Koizumi make their neighbors pissed off by picking their historically most sensitive part. It is simply not wise for Japan to go in such a way.
Some Japanese seem to think that they have been doing well without their Asian counterparts’ helps and thus so will they as well. But just be realistic. Japan’s dependence on China in factory production and market has been growing enormaously (just look at the back of the light-industry products in Japan, can Japanese consumers live without “made-in-China”?” It is not that Japanese build factories and gives works to Chinese, they are inter-dependent)
What I think is that Japan does not need to show unwanted/pretended humblness to its Asian counterparts just because of its war-time atrocities (yes, the past is the past anyway), but she’d better not try to persuade them to accept or overlook its internal rhethoric for pm’s Yasukuni visit by its political and cultural relativism. That will worsen the situations. What merit is for Japan by doing so? Some piece of nationalism, patriotism, loyalty to its country?
Wow, only 63 posts on a korea-japan post! Next thing you know Ban Ki Moon and Koizumi will freedom kiss each other in Dokdo sunset. Ahh… Maybe Ban Ki Moon will play harder to get than Richard Gere.