If you can stomach it, read the KH’s interview with convicted spy Robert Kim. Frankly, I debated linking it here, mostly out of fear that it will lead to another sickening bout of gyopo-bashing in my comments section, but also because it provides serious locker room material for anti-immigration types who’d prefer to close America’s borders (something I in no way, shape or form support). I mean, Sweet Jesus, did Bob actually consider the implications of statements such as these:
“Some people think that when you acquire citizenship in a different country, that you forget your home country, but this is not true,” he said. “America is a melting-pot of different nationalities, but everyone defines their identity with regard to their original national heritage, like, ‘I am Canadian,’ ‘I am Australian,’ and so forth.”
Granted, it’s been a while since I lived in the States, but I seem to recall most people placing their original national heritage second to their American ones.
“Is a citizenship so important? I acquired a citizenship in order to work here [in the United States]. In some regards, it is a citizenship of convenience. Acquiring citizenship does not mean that one forgets their home country,” said Kim, implying that he considers Korea, before the United States, to be his first object of affection.
“I’d like my actions to be defined as arising from a love for the people, rather than a love for the government,” he said, suggesting a different definition of patriotism, from the Korean translation of ‘eh-gook-shim’ to ‘eh-jok-shim’, ‘gook’ meaning ‘nation’ and ‘jok’ meaning ‘people’.
{ 88 comments… read them below or add one }
It’s a disgrace. I found myself wincing every time I read his words. He has really damaged the reputation of Korean immigrants abroad as fifth column traitors. And I love how some Korean experts try to explain away all this by saying it didn’t the hurt the US so it’s OK. What a shameful display of ethnocentricism.
My wife took the oath a few months back.
I guess Robert Kim forgot what the words meant.
A lot of older Koreans do not share his opinion, but some of the younger immigrants seems to. Too bad.
Kim Chae-gun’s comments are not that surprising. Koreans born and raised in racially homogeneous Korea take a different view of nationality than racially diverse North Americans. Our nationality is defined by citizenship; Koreans define theirs by race. Foreigners who take Korean citizenship are still “weguksaram” and always will be. I know many Koreans whom emigrated to the US as adults, took US citizenship for practical reasons, and consider themselves at heart to be Korean.
Our citizenship policy is out of line with the rest of the world. Few countries confer automatic citizenship to anyone born on its soil. It has been proposed that this qualification for citizenship be modified to require that at least one parent have permanent residency or citizenship. This makes sense to me. Why is the child of two parents here in a student visa an American just because he was born here? The parents return to Korea and raise their child there. A Korean child raised in Korea is Korean regardless of what passport he carries.
I lived in Korea nine years. While I was there, there was talk of introducing green cards for long-term foreign residents. National Assembly member Kim Dae-chul, who later quit after being implicated in a corruption scandal, was a strong proponent of the green card idea. Had the green card idea gotten off the ground, I would have applied and perhaps made Korea my permanent home. I am single and thus ineligible for a family visa. Next door neighbor China does issue green cards to foreign nationals who meet certain residency requirements.
I read the article in full, and woah, the truth comes out:
With regards to a Washington Post report of July 12, 1997 which accused Kim of passing classified documents so that the Korean government would buy a computer system from his brother’s company, Kim said “That is what the prosecutors wanted to say. But they have no supporting evidence of that.”
I had always understood that Kim was motivated by patriotism, not money. Imagine the possibility that Kim sold out his adopted country for his brother’s financial gain and is singing a patriotic tune to rake in money from the motherland.
“Koreans born and raised in racially homogeneous Korea take a different view of nationality than racially diverse North Americans.”
True for some first generation of immigrants, which is not that surprising if you think about it. Second generation children of Korean immigrants on the other hand, not so. Read the words of second generation Korean American golpher named Kim Cho Rong. She came out and said she was “American” period. I’m trying to find that Korean language link.
Actress Grace Park (Battlestar Galactica) says similar things. I’m not sure if she has US or Canadian citizenship, but she seems to feel it’s one of convience as well. People tend to overlook her statements because they’re staring at her breasts.
Eh … if you don’t really want American citizenship I don’t think that anyone will pout over your giving it up.
After reading the linked article more closely, this dude’s just an attention whore. In terms of value, I’d place his comments right between Gary Coleman’s and Carrottop’s.
“Why is the child of two parents here in a student visa an American just because he was born here?”
I think it’s a traditional legal interpretation going back to the founding of the US, and as stated in the US Constitution. I just took a look, thinking that this definition was in the original document (the articles), but according to this link evidently it wasn’t stated until the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified around the time of (just after? 1868?) the US Civil War. (The intent of the 14th Amendment at the time of ratification was to legally enshrine in the Constitution the eradication of slavery).
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html (warning, dark-blue text on a blue background, painful to read to my eyes).
I don’t have a hard copy of the constitution with me and don’t have the patience to scroll through the text on-line until/unless I can find another link with an easier-to-read background.
I agree that in your hypothetical case it’s foolish for the US to grant automatic citizenship to such an infant and that this interpretation should be changed. Until we do so, the attitude of a “citizenship of convenience” mentioned in the original post will probably continue — infuriatingly so .
“The intent of the 14th Amendment at the time of ratification was to legally enshrine in the Constitution the eradication of slavery”.
Looking at this further, I think my statement here is wrong. I should have said that the intent of the 14th Amendment at the time of ratification was to ensure the full US citizenship of former slaves (male ones), to include their full “franchise” (right to vote). .
I know many Koreans whom emigrated to the US as adults, took US citizenship for practical reasons, and consider themselves at heart to be Korean.
Per my experiences, I would say that the majority of KA’s don’t necessarily feel this way (not to disagree with you, just afraid that this observation will lead to gyopo-bashing or yellow perilisms) and this is probably a similar experience as that of other immigrant populations. You can get a sense of where they feel “home” ultimately is, by questioning where they would ultimately want to retire to or, in the case of say, my grandparents (who became naturalized US citizens), where they “want to be buried.”
Although this discussion on citizenship is very fascinating and important, the point is, that the man was working for the government, not just running a dry laundry. He had a security clearance, for crissakes! Agencies are desperate enough for talented individuals (read, language ability) that they will waive all the questions on the interviews related to loyalties. The point to ponder is not ethnicity, but citizenship. Do countries matter any more? As an expat, it might sound hypocritical for me to argue, that the nation-state still has relevance. In a globalized world especially, the state has more valuable work to do protecting citizens from the economic effects of globalization. And, no matter what, defense, of which intelligence-gathering is a vital part, is the most important government function. This KA Aaron Burr is an opportunist, who is undermining security (of any state) with his convenient notions of rthnicity. What happens when the ROK government does something that violates his concept of ethnicity? Or, even a unified state? This man has only one country…himself! Some may quibble over sspecific policies of a specific administration (and I’m not pointing fingers east or west), but we all enjoy the beneits government provides. Follow this man’s opportunism at your peril!
KimBob – Here’s a link to an article from Daum about Christina Kim (Kim Cho Rong), and here’s the money shot from it, “? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ????????? ?? ????????? ??????? ?????.” The author of the article won’t dignify her preference for being an American, and instead insists on treating her like a wayword daughter of the HanMinJoke. “She was acting more American than the Americans.” WTF? This is what she had to say about it, “????? ????????? ??????” Whatever her dual citenship status, I’ll grant her the right to choose who she wants to be.
It just doesn’t seem to compute with a lot of those born and raised in Korea that a person can identify more with other Americans who happen to be white or black than he/she can with a someone who happens to look like him but sees the world from a completely different perspective. Hooray for the melting pot.
Corpy Carly,
I think it’s good on Kim that she feels loyalty toward her adopted land. But I think the problem here is that she competed for the Korean national team. If she considers herself full blooded American, why is she competing for a Korean national team? The problem here is sort of like the case of Robert Kim, only it’s the other way around, where an American says she’s proud to be American, yet have no problems taking advantage of what Korea has to offer. If the case of Robert Kim gets your goat, then I think you can understand how irate Koreans can get about this. The trouble is, those Koreans who are supporting Robert Kim, can’t see how hypocritical their views are. They can’t see that this kind of thing goes both ways.
First, I should correct myself. The National Assembly member was Chung Dae-chul, not Kim Dae-chul.
To Nerdieboy, as a Korean-American, you know the community better than I. I am deeply touched that your grandparents wish to buried in their adopted land as I understand the cultural significance of this decision. I didn’t mean to sound critical of adult immigrants. Even if I had decided to remain in Korea, could I ever really love Korea as I love America or feel truly Korean? Perhaps if I spent many, many years and became fully integrated into Korean society, I would. And you are right to observe that it isn’t just Koreans, but all immigrants who grapple with issues of identity.
To Paul H, I think you are right. The citizenship birthright is in the Constitution. My example of the Korean child born of student parents is not hypothetical. I know of many Korean families in Korea with one or more children holding foreign passports. There are so many, in fact, that Seoul Foreign School restricts admission to foreign passport holders with at least one foreign-passport holding parent. This policy frustrates Korean parents who wish to send their kids there. The rationale, as explained to me by a former principal, is that the school strives to provide an English-medium education for foreign children who do not speak Korean. It is not meant as an alternative to Korean schools for Korean children. There is a waiting list to get in, and the school feels the policy is necessary to ensure places for foreign children, most of whom do not speak Korean.
While teaching in university, I read a thoughful composition from a former KATUSA. He wrote about a Filipino-American soldier he worked with. The woman had been born in the Philippines, emigrated to the US, taken US citizenship, and joined the military. At first, he doubted how she could be both Filipina and American, how she could love both countries. As he got to know her, he understood and was impressed by her attitude.
Someone shoot this guy. Even his children find his actions incredulous, according to the article.
As I also mentioned over at Nomad’s blog, I’d be interested to learn Robert Kim’s views on North Korea – did he ever view them as an enemy, either in general or specfically of South Korea? His definition of ‘patriotism’ naturally leads to that question, and also raises the question of how much trust can be placed in this man by any government on this pennisula.
Isn’t it obvious?
whether it is to make a quick buck for his brother’s computer company or for himself, he is playing this “patriot” angle to insure a sweet future. With donations and book deals coming in and hundreds of paid speaking jobs lined up, he should be quite comfortable for the next few years.
Sitting in prison with no chance to work in America again in the future, he had a lot of time to think.
“Hey, I could play the patriot card. My fellow Koreans will buy that right quick!”
The only reason he bad-mouths America is becuase he doesnt have a future there.
So obvious and yet his fellow Koreans bought it 100%
Another thought:
Kim Sun-woong, professor of sociology at Robert Kim’s alma mater Hanyang University, likened the situation to that of supporting a soccer team regardless of one’s residence. To that, I’d suggest that the analogy of marriage would be more appropriate.That would mean that he had been ‘wed’ to South Korea, and yet felt no qualms about having ‘an affair’ with the US.
Elder Koreans sometimes accept the analogous arrangement, yet may be less receptive to his real actions; younger Koreans do not accept the analogous actions as being morally correct, yet the youth provide positive support to what he really did.
Kimbob, I didn’t know anything about Miss Kim, other than what I read in this article, but I can certainly see your point. After reading some more, I totally agree. It seems Miss Kim needs to make a decision, and stop trying to enjoy all the benefits being a dual citizen. Making statements like these, “????? ?????????????. ???? ????????? ? ???? ??????????” and then the good ‘ol “????? ???????????? ??????????” makes me wonder what she actually thinks. Then again I think the comment that most ticked off the netizens was this, “????? ???? ???? ?????.”
Of course, the difference between selling state secrets unapologetically and taking the opportunity to play for a national team is a pretty big one. One’s an amoral ingrate and the other’s just immature. Both of them should make a decision and live with it.
Why was Christina Kim allowed to play for the Korean national team? I thought that dual citizenship was not accepted by South Korea. It’s a bit unfair to criticize Christina since Korea does embrace the Korean diaspora through pan-Korean events like the annual sports meet and the Miss Korea contest. If a gyopo representing New York can compete to become Miss Korea, then why can’t a ???????????? ?????? become a ???? ????????? I don’t think Christina’s immature; rather, she is a smart athlete seeking to advance her career.
In the immortal words of Georg Handel (water music): ?I am more of an Englishman than you are (to an Englishmen upset that Handel considered himself English when in fact he had been born and raised in Germany) because unlike you, I was not fortunate enough to be born English, I had to make the conscious choice to become so.??
The Koreans (or even Asian immigrants) do not hold a monopoly on spying for other governments (remember Aldrich Aims and the guy that gave secrets to Israel?). It could be argued that some of those people are motivated by money, others by loyalty to the other country and others still just for the excitement. I would hope that this would give the immigrant community pause to reassess their loyalties. My ancestors being old immigrants, I would like to see that model followed-one of embracing the new country and leaving the old one. I am not advocating forgetting ones roots. I still love to see the pipes and drummers play Scotland the Brave but when I go to the UK, I do not walk around telling people I am Scottish (besides the fact that I am American, I would get laughed at) even though that is where my ancestors came from.
By the same token, there are plenty of Koreans serving with honor in the US armed forces. I read about a KA Navy SEAL that was killed in combat in Afghanistan earlier this year. This guy had had a friend in high school that was killed in an accident and this KA guy was so hurt by that he had his name legally changed to that of his friend-keeping (if memory serves) his Korean surname. By all accounts, this guy was the epitome of a loyal American.
I would agree that there are many Koreans (and other nationalities) that do take US because it is convenient, not because they identify themselves as Americans. The most obvious abuse of this are the Koreans and other Asians that fly their pregnant wives to the US to give birth only to return to their home country with a freshly minted US citizen. In the case of Koreans, this presents many benefits: access to foreigners school in Korea, access to US universities without the oppressive visa requirements and lack of job opportunities in the US, exclusion from having to serve in the Korean military and a foot in the door making it easier for the family to emigrate to the US at some point in the future. This is particularly offensive because they contribute NOTHING to the US and are only concerned with taking advantage of certain benefits. No one says anything about these people though, preferring instead to talk about how bad it is that pregnant Mexican women swim the river to give birth on the other side. Never mind the fact that the Mexicans have at least a dream of living a productive life in the US and do not intend to go back to Mexico (except maybe to visit). The point being that I believe the system that is in place for US citizenship is seriously flawed and needs to be fixed.
BTW, holding “dual citizenship” used to be illegal for Americans — either you were an American citizen or another country’s citizen. The one exception (for trivia buffs) was Winston Churchill; I think he was made an “honorary” American citizen by a special act of US Congress during or after WWII.
I was surprised to learn a few years ago that this law had been changed (sometime in the 70′s? I wonder if it was during the Carter administration).
This case is a good example of why “dual citizenship” remains a bad idea.
I think whether or not it is allowed depends on the way in which you acquire dual citizenship in the US. For example, a child born in the US is automatically a US citizen. If they also happen to have an Australian or European parent, they can be also given citizenship from that country. On the other hand, if a citizen from another country tries to become a naturalized US citizen, they are required (I believe) to renounce all previous citizenships first as a condition of naturalization.
Of course, the difference between selling state secrets unapologetically and taking the opportunity to play for a national team is a pretty big one.
True in this case. But do realize what the latest issues including entertainers skipping town to avoid military service and Korean mothers going to the US to give birth to US babies is doing to the Korean public view who perceive those that have no gumption to take advantage of Korean system while enjoying the benefits of the US system at the same time..
Contributing the least possible to both-my point exactly.
The estimable David Scofield (where has he gone?) ferreted out a lot of good stuff that shows Robert Kim was indeed motivated by profit and is now lying about this:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FF12Dg04.html
Highlights:
“According to US Federal Bureau of Investigation wiretaps, Robert Kim and his brother Kim Yung-gon devised a plan to “acquire”, reverse engineer and sell a secret US military computer system to the South Korean government, a plan that if successful would likely have ensured the two brothers a huge windfall for their efforts. Robert Kim acquired export permits and licenses that would have allowed the Kim brothers to export stolen, sensitive technology to South Korea under the guise of normal technology trade. These licenses were ultimately revoked by the US Department of Commerce in June 2000. ”
“But these facts are conveniently avoided in the South Korean press, and by extension, ignored by the South Korean people. Robert Kim, with a nudge and a wink from the South Korean government, is being portrayed in all media sources, left, right and center, as a patriot who selflessly sacrificed for his homeland. There has been no discussion of his financial problems: the US$200,000 in credit-card debt the assistant US attorney asserted during Kim’s bail hearing; the export license he acquired; the highly sensitive technology he was hoping to sell to the government of South Korea.”
Robert Kim should be strung up and his flesh slowly fed to weasels or fire ants.
?But these facts are conveniently avoided in the South Korean press, and by extension, ignored by the South Korean people.
Not exactly. Robert Kim disputes this accusation and the Korean press is reporting it as insufficient evidence. I wouldn’t say “avoided in the South Korean press”.
I don’t know who sickens me more—Kim, or people on this board. This issue has nothing to do with immigration and citizenship. Liberal policies for immigration and citizenship are appropriate, if the guidelines are kept simple and free of partisan legislative exemptions and inclusions.
Kim’s opportunism as a citizen does not bother me. It’s his conduct as an intelligence worker that should ring alarm bells. Is the American intelligence establishment so debiltated that it cannot screen out people like KIm or pry him out when found before he does damage? Is American inttelligence so desperate it needs native speakers with such eweak loyalties? Is the ROK-US relationship so antagonistic now that someone could dare to act upon disagreement on policies he has no right to question a this level? This is the nature of the problem, not trying to send American immigration policy back to a Stone Age mentality. The entire world should be able to be American, or French, or Moldovan, if it makes little hearts content and productive. But if you want to be in a position of responsibility in a very sensitive government or industry position, any position, then you have to prove something more
I agree Kim should rot in jail, but so should the people who hired him. And, they’re citizenship should be revoked. Ethnicity, language, culture, none of this matters! This is about loyalty and committment to the Republic! If you can’t see that then you should renounce your citizenship. I wouldn’t knock a single green-card-holder in the States who’s Korean, and they can hoard dollars until they can buy a mountain in Korea But if you are a citizen and you do this, you should be abandoned, property confiscated, and left to rot waiting for the next freighter out. Execution is too good for this man, and it would waste tax dollars!
In the immortal words of Georg Haendel (water music): ?I am more of an Englishman than you are (to an Englishman upset that Haendel considered himself English when in fact he had been born and raised in Germany) because unlike you, I was not fortunate enough to be born English, I had to make the conscious choice to become so.??
I think the Texas version reads something like: “I wasn’t born here, but I sure came as fast as I could.”
This case is a good example of why ?dual citizenship?? remains a bad idea.
France doesn’t recognize [legally] dual-citizenship, but you’ll find many people with double [or more] citizenship. In fact, France doesn’t care about other citizenships you may have ? as long as you comply with the obligations that come with being French. For instance, when there was a draft, French boys had to go [if they passed muster, of course], unless they were born in another country ? and had that country’s citizenship. So a French-Japanese friend of mine avoided the draft, being born in Japan, while a French-German friend was all too glad to do his military during in France [then half the time he would've had to spend with the Krauts].
Dual citizenship is not a bad idea per se [after all, it's hard to tell bi-national kids to choose], it’s the application of the concept that needs to be tweaked ? especially for people acquiring a citizenship via immigration. The bit about “as long as you comply with the obligations that come with being [French]” I mentionned above is important. If you cheat about your new country, you lose the rights to be a member of the club, and get expelled. Unde such a provision, Bob Kim should get his ass shot back to Seoul, see if he likes it there.
I will say just one thing. Korean government should not admit Bobby into Korea.
people don’t talk about the ‘wave’ of korean women rushing to america to have children because the wave is no tsunami when compared to the illegal immigration from mexico. pregnant korean women do not result in changing your radio dial and getting station after station of korean radio. it’s not resulting in signs everywhere in korean. it’s not resulting in straining the american health care system. that’s why people don’t talk about it.
*****
the implication that koreans aren’t productive immigrants is a joke. they’re some of the most productive immigrants around. just like the jews. is pollard still in jail?
‘i was afraid it would bring on the korea kyopo bashing.’ marmot
you know your audience well.
?But these facts are conveniently avoided in the South Korean press, and by extension, ignored by the South Korean people.”
Not exactly. Robert Kim disputes this accusation and the Korean press is reporting it as insufficient evidence. I wouldn?t say “avoided in the South Korean press”.
Kimbob, I realize that you’re simply relaying the Korean media’s position, but that position’s laughable. The Korean media chooses to print what they like, in the manner that they like, and they are choosing not to print this.
First, since when has ‘insufficient evidence’ of fact presented an obstacle to the Korean media? It certainly hasn’t stopped them with respect to the myriad issues knocked about here with regularity. I doubt that their decision not to print was reached because some believe the evidence to be insufficient, but rather because they believe that their readers prefer to buy a different version. Even if we accept their premise that insufficient evidence exists, why haven’t they sought to deal with this as they do with issues concerning non-Koreans?
Further, to simply rely on the assertions of Robert Kim is to take his word above that of the American government, yet as you may recall, Kim admitted guilt for his crime, so precisely why does the Korean media believe him? After all, he’s admitted that his American citizenship oath was a lie of convenience, and he’s shown that he can lie to his employers. Again, I think that the answer is that they made a profitable choice, rather than met an ethical obligation.
Again, not an attack on you, Kimbob
The Korean Dimension
Its easy these days to feel despondent about US-ROK relations. Although the Roh administration cooled with ordinary tap water rhetoric surfacing from a left-right confrontation over MacArthurs statue at Incheon, it has returned to form wi…
The Korean Dimension
It’s easy these days to feel despondent about US-ROK relations. Although the Roh administration cooled with ordinary tap water rhetoric surfacing from a left-right confrontation over MacArthur’s statue at Incheon, it has returned to form with a reque…
Kimbob, I realize that you?re simply relaying the Korean media?s position, but that position?s laughable.
I’m just a messenger.
I knew this would feed Nulji and his unique gift for irrelevant comments. I look at 20-odd comments and see absolutely no kyopo-bashing — just one reference by james to some people who abuse the system. Many recognize, far more than the Korean media cheerleaders for Robert Kim, that this hurts Korean Americans and even makes the ROK look like a second rate society unable to understand rule of law or right and wrong. Two words, Nulji: “reading comprehension”.
Kimbob – the Scofield article is about a year old and to my knowledge, the Herald question referring to to the WAPO report is the first time I’ve seen that part of the story mentioned in the Korean media. In fact I do give the Herald credit for trying to appear balanced in his case (altough their goal may be to help Robert Kim).
I agree with the Infidel.
The bigger issue is that he was working for an intelligence agency.
European Americans (whites) tend to forget that it used to be quite common for European immigrants to have lingering thoughts of their homelands all the way to the grave and even to entertain thoughts of “returning” someday. I think it’s natural to feel someone conflicted about your allegiances when you’re a naturalized immigrant to any country, though in Robert Kim’s case it got the best of him.
He got citizenship as a matter of convenience. Too bad, but everyone has their reasons and many have that as theirs. But then he gave intelligence work about as much respect as fast food areubaiteu.
On another note…
I’ve just blogged this question, but what evidence is there that Robert Kim was trying to earn extra cash for him and his brother with the espionage activities, evidence more substantial than people the FBI wouldn’t be talking to quoting the FBI?
It’s not about thinking of returning. It’s about not biting the hand that feeds you. He chose not only to live in a country [green card would be enough] but to belong to it. And thanked the US government by betraying it. Slam. Dunk.
It’s interesting to see so many people feel sickened by Kim’s behavior and excuses, but is anyone really surprised? I’ve developed an immunity to such reactions from prolonged exposure to the Korean disease. It is only natural to read Kim’s admission that he only wanted to take from the US without having to fulfill his proper moral and legal obligations in return. I have seen Koreans doing this in the US for decades – and here in Korea the same phenomenon has long been in evidence.
It is also only natural for the Korean media to excuse and rationalize for his crimes, and Kim should certainly enjoy the company of misery while it lasts. Eventually he will have a large karmic bill to pay for not finding cause to regret for having violated one of the most basic human moral obligations.
VERY WELL SAID!
Eventually he will have a large karmic bill to pay for not finding cause to regret for having violated one of the most basic human moral obligations.
To Infidel,
Chill. Yes, comments on the board have included discussions about citizenship and nationality. That is because of Kim’s comments in the interview about his Korean identity. This story is not only about spying but also about naturalized US citizen Kim’s appeals to Korean nationalism and casual dismissal of an authentic American nationality by saying that every American has a hyphenated identity.
You wonder how he got hired. Well, do you think he told his interviewers in naval intelligence that he was Korean, through and through? Of course not. He probably expressed great love and admiration for his adopted country. At the time of employment, he may have considered himself American and he may not have imagined violating the trust placed in him.
The comments, including mine, about reforming citizenship are not stone age. In fact, comments have been limited to changing the automatic citizenship at birth. Most countries, including Korea, do not grant automatic citizenship to babies born of foreign parents, so I guess almost everyone else on earth is still living in caves. Until Mizar5 showed up, there had been no gyopo-bashing on this thread.
To Nulji,
Yes, Pollard is still in prison. He received a life sentence with a recommendation of no parole.
I?ve developed an immunity to such reactions from prolonged exposure to the Korean disease. It is only natural to read Kim?s admission that he only wanted to take from the US without having to fulfill his proper moral and legal obligations in return. I have seen Koreans doing this in the US for decades – and here in Korea the same phenomenon has long been in evidence.
I too share Mizar’s thoughts. I wasn’t surprised and I too have become immuned. That doesn’t mean though, that it doesn’t disgusts me still. I would say it’s the education system that teaches young people to compete and win at all costs, even cheating or compromising basic social values. As long as you don’t get caught and it furthers your goals, it’s OK.
Infidel wondered if US intelligence agencies were so desperate for native speakers that they needed to hire someone of questionable loyalties. How many non ethnic Koreans do you know who speak Korean fluently enough to transcribe and translate Korean conversations into English? Surprisingly, government translation work does not pay that well. CIA analysts earn $43,000-70,000 a year, about the same as the pay scale for teachers in Fairfax County Schools in northern Virginia. Both CIA translators and teachers would have a tough time buying a house in northern Virginia.
Oranckay wants evidence that Kim was motivated by money.
According to US Federal Bureau of Investigation wiretaps, Robert Kim and his brother Kim Yung-gon devised a plan to “acquire”, reverse engineer and sell a secret US military computer system to the South Korean government, a plan that if successful would likely have ensured the two brothers a huge windfall for their efforts. Robert Kim acquired export permits and licenses that would have allowed the Kim brothers to export stolen, sensitive technology to South Korea under the guise of normal technology trade. These licenses were ultimately revoked by the US Department of Commerce in June 2000.
According to the article, Kim was $200,000 in debt. Actually, the more I read about this case, the more I realize that Kim Chae-gon is just another spy motivated by greed. The biggest fools aren’t his superiors in naval intelligence; they did, after all, catch him with enough evidence to earn a conviction, but rather, sympathetic Koreans who have donated millions of won for his “cause.”
The entire article from the Asia Times can be found here:
For some reason, I can’t use the link function properly, so the link is not appearing.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FF12Dg04.html
And, with this in mind, first-generation immigrants should be blocked from service.
Nice idea, but this restriction would thin the ranks of US intelligence. The CIA, the FBI, and other agencies are always looking for speakers of Korean, Chinese, Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, Pashto, and a long list of twenty other languages known as “less commonly taught languages.” A US-born Korean-American bilingual college grad with a degree in engineering can do a whole lot better than the current pay offered by intelligence agencies.
FLAS, Foreign Language Area Studies, scholarships were created by the government to encourage Americans to study a diversity of languages. However, university is too late to begin study of a foreign language if one wishes to achieve native-like fluency. Public schools are expanding foreign language offerings beyond the traditional Spanish, French, and German, but foreign language is considered an elective and is one of the first subjects to get the axe during budget cuts. There is much talk of promoting foreign languages in schools but little money to support instruction. With No Child Left Behind’s emphasis on achievement in literacy and math, many elementary schools, including mine, have cut instructional time in science and social studies in order to do test prep with the kids. Fugeddabout trying to inspire the kids’ interest in learning Chinese.
I don’t foresee the government reducing its dependence on the language skills of 1 and 1.5 generation immigrants anytime in the near future.
Sonagi:
With respect, I think Kim, this board, and the KH are taking you down the garden path. Perhaps its a product of two different genrations’ educational experiences, but I I don’t feel any need to understand Kim.I don’t care about his ethnicity, He had a job, he violated his trust, and he should be punished more sternly than he has been.
As for the Intelligence services, again I disagree. The interview process is not repeated, dreaded, and strung out sometimes for months because Daddy DIRNSA likes to give people strokes. A friend of mine endured an interview, with a light in his face and all, and he said after three days he felt as if he had violated every law in the country, was morally deficient, and had thoughts about committing crimes just to compensate for what he felt the interviewer had said about him. And, he got a clearance. Having endured a battery of these chats myself, it is not a fun talk. The people who conduct these interviews are trained to grill people, and a legion of folks support him sifting through paperwork and doing interviews of acquaintances. Either Kim is sociopathic, and/or the staff failed. Or, he was allowed in for his language ability, in which case the Congress needs to make it easier to atrract and train professionals.
As for living in caves, yes, I do think most immigration policy, including comments made on this board, are stone-age. Immigration policy in the 21st C. has not developed with circumstances. Movement of people should be facilitated, not curtailed, based on purely economic criteria. I can’t quote chapter and verse right now, but The Economist has supported liberlaizing immigration policies. But when it comes to loyalty and psychological stability, immigrants should not just be granted responsibility in government or industry.
I wouldn’t waste time figuring out this man, only trying to avoid this situation again. Again, that’s where our educational experiences diverge.
Oranckay:
Those European immigrants jettisoned their foreign status as quickly as possible. My great-grandfather was very German, but he never let a moment pass to express his gratitude to his adopted country. It’s good to have a fall=back country if you don’t succeed, but there’s something admirable in a person who puts his faith all on one country.
Sperwer:
Nice work! Strict construction or progressive interpretation? I don’t see it as a problem to liberlaize immigration law, as long as the inclusions and exclusions are eliminated. Unlike federalism and government powers, I don’t think immigration policy is a subject the Founding Fathers got right.
Either Kim is sociopathic, and/or the staff failed. Or, he was allowed in for his language ability, in which case the Congress needs to make it easier to attract and train professionals.
Or Kim simply wanted a job back in ’74 and had no intention of betraying his adopted country. He is not the first or the last intelligence officer to sell secrets. All other traitors passed the same rigorous examination process. I remember reading about one white FBI agent a few years ago who sold out for money; he was disgruntled about a job transfer to NYC and felt he could not live comfortably there on his FBI salary. Since most convicted spies in this country were lured by money rather than ideology, I don’t think the problem lies in recruitment, but rather monitoring of the finances of people working in intelligence.
Movement of people should be facilitated, not curtailed, based on purely economic criteria.
I could almost agree with you. Sometimes I think we should overhaul our current immigration policies which give priority to family members and underrepresented countries and adopt a point system similar to Australia’s or Canada’s. Then I remember the tall torch-bearing lady standing sentinel off Manhattan. A Chinese TV drama last year mocked Australia’s immigrant visa for investors; two Chinese characters preparing to leave China for Australia chuckled, “Australia is a country that sells its citizenship. How interesting.”
Sonagi:
Security clearances are reviewed every five years. However, after the second review, the process gets easier. The first two cover the person’s entire life, but the later interviews only cover the preceding period since the last interview. There is a tendency to sigh in relief after the second interview, and view the latter interviews as perfunctory. Perhaps this attitude contributes to the process by which Kim’s attitudes were not scrutinized.
Your comments highlight a conflict between attitudes about small government and the modern private sector, which leads people to to request more money for government officials. The most talented people are seldom the richest, so high salaries could attract the best people, or so this view goes. There is a long history of scandals affecting the NSA involving low-paid professionals at lower echelons. The problem lies here in the basic attitudes as translated into bureaucratic procedures. It’s doubtful American tax-payers will tolerate higher slaries for Federal workers, so Federal departments need to be ruthless in keeping future Kims, of whatever background, out of the intelligence services. it should be communicated that government service is just that, service, not enrichment. And, with this in mind, first-generation immigrants should be blocked from service. Like immigrants compete in the private sector, and maybe the next generation will undertand why service is so important.
As far as immigration, what people can achieve alone and together is always a wonder to me. I don’t think a bureaucrat can foresee what an immigrant could contribute to the country.
Finally, whatever circumstances explain Kim’s behavior, in a court of law there is no legal defense. I don’t care if he were disgruntled. Actions of this nature get people killed. Younger and poorer soldiers and workers have been incarcerated for far less. Just because Kim is Korean, disgruntled, or useful does not condone leniency. There was an opportunity here to reform the intelligence service, and government service in general, and the soft attitudes leading to the leniency given, have frustrated that. It’s also an opportunity to define the nature of the ROK-US alliance.
Sperwer:
Your number 42 is worth saving, simply because it may be the only time we ever get $200 per hour legal advice for free.
But, you said:
“…And it?s tempting to think that this clearly means that [if] someone simply is born in the US they automatically become a citizen as a matter of constitutional right … In other words, children of foreign parents have no consitutional right to citizenship simply by virtue of their birth in the US.”
You support this by citing research; sounds good to me. But if this is the case, why in heaven’s name did the US administration go to such lengths to transfer out of Gitmo (and into a US jail) that one particular Saudi (captured in Afghanistan, don’t have his name handy)?
The one I mean had been born in the US (Louisiana?) of native Saudi parents and then had promptly left the US as an infant, never having returned since. And neither he nor his parents had ever made any effort to positively claim or assert US citizenship.
At least, I don’t think they or he hadn’t (to the best of my recollection, reading from general news sources only, not from any legal discussion of his case).
Perhaps the parents made an effort to assert his US citizenship after he was captured and they found out (or surmised) that he was being held at Gitmo (?)
If not, why did the government lawyers (Dept of Justice? Pentagon?) get so alarmed about his particular case, and promptly transfer him into a US criminal jurisdiction, when they found out where he had been born? Did they simply lack your conviction about the legal facts pertaining to this particular matter of obtaining citizenship automatically by birth within the borders of the 50 states, in the face of a certain ACLU lawsuit?
BTW, I think this particular case was finally disposed of (sometime in the last year or so?) by making an arrangement with the Saudi government to transfer this man back to KSA, presumably into the custody of his parents and with assurances from the Kingdom that he will not go forth to “jihad” any more.
As an American (of Korean descent, unfortunately) I’d like to note that Robert Kim will most likely burn in the ninth circle of Hell for eternity. The Feds should’ve gotten medieval on his ass. Only nine years? WTF? Whatever happened to the chair? I don’t know which is worse, South Korea or Saudi Arabia. We have some truly shi**y allies. For the record, there is a huge cultural/intellectual/philosophical/ideological gap between immigrants and (most of) their American-born children. But there are, unfortunately, some (Korean) Americans who cheer for South Korean athletic teams, listen to K-pop (largely derivative, unbearable crap), and call themselves “Korean” (as opposed to American). (Granted, it’s not criminal behavior, arguably, but it’s still annoying.) I suspect they were either brainwashed by their hypernationalistic parents (you’re Korean, dammit! a member of the great minjok!) or had some traumatic childhood experiences (maybe run-ins with some budding neo-Nazis who told them to go back to China or something). So they reject or downplay their identities as Americans, even though they can hardly speak Korean and completely miss or bristle at Korean cultural cues. Pretty sad. Being surrounded by Koreans 24/7 could be the cause, too. The worst ones are those who grow up in isolated ethnic ghettos, like urban K-towns. The rest of us had pretty “normal” American upbringings with rational, well-adjusted parents and peers, although with lots of kimchi (smells as bad as it tastes) on the dinner table instead of Sauerkraut (mein Lieblingsgemuese).
Anyway, Robert Kim can go to hell.
Troll
Sonagi “Until Mizar5 showed up, there had been no gyopo-bashing on this thread.”
Um…why would I bash myself? And what’s “gyopo-bashing”, anyway – some term you made up for a non-existent phenomenon to justify an insecurity?
Oh give it up already, it’s so tired. Nobody believes that you’re Korean.
Paul:
I’m not familiar with all the facts of the case, but that may not matter. If as you say, the person in question was born in the US, that’s the dispositive consideration. Although as the child of foreign parents he thus had no constitutional right to citizenship, under current statutory arrangements he nevertheless automatically became an US citizen by virtue of his birth on Amercian soil.
[As I mentioned before, there is a strong argument to be made that such statute itself is unconsitutional, but as far as I know no one has made it to the Supremes, so the law stands.]
In the case of children of Amercian citizens born abroad certain postive steps need to be taken in order to establish citizenship – basically proving to the local Embassy the US citizenship of at least one parent and the residence of that parent for at least five years in the States as the condition for issuance of a Certificate of Borth of an American Citizen Abroad.
No such positive steps are needed , though, if birth occurs in the US. Citizenship is automatic.– although, as in this case, it may become necessary to establish it in order to garner the benefits. This guy’s lawyers apparently were able to do so – perhaps by simply producing a birth certifcate.
Once someone is a citizen, they are then entitled to all rights and protections available under the Constitution, including rights of due process, advice of counsel, etc., etc. That is the purport of the 14th Amendment, which was primarily intended to rectify the exclusion from such rights of various previously disadvantaged groups in the US, including in particular slaves.
PS: Back in the 50′s, after he had lost to Truman and joined a major Wall Street law firm, Dewey kept an hourglass on his desk and was known to declare to prospective clients (rather pompously, I think) that when the sand had run, the client would owe him $500. If I were still in practice, that’s what I’d be charging nowadays.
I won’t get into what the actual charges for this frolic on the law of citzenship might be worth given the creative lawyerly timekeeping possible in the privacy of my study. 
Re: kyop’o-bashing. This expression, whoever made it up, harks from Paki-bashing, a practice supposedly dead, but very much alive in the 70s [it's probably one of the first unsavory English expressions I've learnt]. It doesn’t have to exist per se to be valid, as it piggy-backs another made-up expression with a very real background.
Um??why would I bash myself? And what?s ?gyopo-bashing??, anyway – some term you made up for a non-existent phenomenon to justify an insecurity?
This is a very interesting statement. First, Mizar is waving around his ethnic identity as some kind of diplomatic passport that provides him with immunity, i.e, I can say whatever I want about gyopos since I’m one. Ideas are judged by their merit, not by the professed ethnic identity of the speaker. Second, gyopo-bashing is not a non-existent phenomenon. Any group of people sharing the same ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, or sexual preference can be bashed not only by outsiders but by members of the same group.
Paul:
I can think of a case that would moot the issue of the unconsitutionality of the citizenship by birth in the US provisions of Title 8. The US reintroduces the draft and calls up a Korean who has US citizenship because his parents arranged for a birth in the US in order to provide the opportunity to avoid ROK miltary service. I’ll bet dollars to dimes that someone in that status would challenge the law in a Seouk minute.
.
Paul:
I can think of a case that would moot the issue of the unconsitutionality of the citizenship by birth in the US provisions of Title 8. The US reintroduces the draft and calls up a Korean who has US citizenship because his parents arranged for a birth in the US in order to provide the opportunity to avoid ROK miltary service. I’ll bet dollars to dimes that someone in that status would challenge the law in a Seoul minute.
.
This is a very interesting statement. First, Mizar is waving around his ethnic identity as some kind of diplomatic passport that provides him with immunity, i.e, I can say whatever I want about gyopos since I?m one. Ideas are judged by their merit, not by the professed ethnic identity of the speaker.
Thank you for capitulating to my point. This is what I’ve been saying all along. Some people are easy to read – I was betting that if I threw out a bit of bait, you’d reel right in.
Second, you are right that “gyopo-bashing is not a non-existent phenomenon”. It indeed exists as a subjective phenomenon for those with the psychological need for reverse validation. By you rationalizing it an objective phenomenon, you again play into my hands. Your accusations of “kyopo bashing” receed further and further into the background with each rationalization.
Sperwer: that would work, but I don’t think we’ll ever see a draft again, as that would open up for endless litigation a whole brave new world of other politico-legal issues.
Paul:
My guess is that Congress eventually – sooner rather than later, I think (and hope) — will revise the nationality laws to exclude simple birth on US soil from the qualifications for citizenship (unless of course one or both parents are citizens). The rationale for the law has run its course — the US no longer has to do anything to encourage immigration, by guaranteeing immigrants children citizenship (which was the original reason for the law – and it’s now just a basis for abuse of US hospitality – and discrimination against American citizens, e.g., one interesting aspect of current law is that the foreign born children of long term American expats are denied citizenship if at least one of the parents hasn’t been resident in the US for at least five years total time. The reason for this is to exclusde from citizenship people who effectively have no connection with the US, even if their parents hold American citizenship. If that makes sense, all the more reason to exclude people who are looking just for a citizenship of convenience — often at the expense of American taxpayers and/or workers.
It’s when Congress does so that I’m sure we’ll see a consitutional challenge, mounted under color of the 14th Amendment, and supported by all the usual suspects. There will be a lot of sentimental palaver about the “Statue of Liberty argument”, of course, but that can be defused by providing more effective mechanisms for accomodating genuine political refugees.
Re: accomodating genuine political refugees, maybe it’s a cultural difference here, but I don’t see what taking in refugees and citizenship have to do together [hope this doesn't sound confrontational, I am just wondering]. If a country [the US, any EU country, etc...] decides to let in a refugee and family for political reasons, these people are generally issued a resident card [green card, whatever]. I don’t see here any special reason to grant them citizenship ? especially since they’ve moved not becaused they wanted but because their life was threatened, it is possible that they might move back again, since political situations are more prone to changes than anything else. Iranian Revolution anyone?
Of course, if the situation goes beyond a certain period of time ? like a decade ? it is probable that the family by then would be settled in, and could be awarded citizenship.
There are abuses, obviously, and a wait-out period is probably a good thing. I know a Bulgarian fellow who emigrated to France on a political refugee status ? although his parents were members of the Communist Party, and he had “a nice life there”. Appears that one of the lawyers at OFPRA, the office in charge of evaluating refugees, is Bulgarian herself, and there seems to be a Bulgarian Connection of sorts. The guy speaks perfect French, has a company, and is now a citizen. But he’s definitely not French. Overall a political immigrant far more successful than the average, but I still have that lingering thought that had this guy put all his energy back home, he would have helped his country more than sending wads of cash back home as he does now.
Just an idle thought on a Sunday afternoon…
Uh… Robert kim a disgrace to South Korea? I hardly think so….. hero? Well I wouldnt go that far but he is hardly a disgrace. Simply put if SK was allowed to develop technologies that the US restricsts via SOFA treaty and other what not treaties(of names I cannot remember, hell maybe they don’t exist right?)Robert kim would not have beem asked to “spy” and considering that the US and SK are on the same godamned side why the US didn’t share the information with SK is beyond my comprehension.
Way past 96′ I think the US could at least reveal why the information was classified to the SK government. Note that only the SK government was not allowed to review the information which raises questions. From my readings the info was info on C4I, satellite phots and a NK sub which disappeared shortly after leaving a NK port which then resurface near the SK shoreline. The US knew about the disappearence of the NK sub but failed to contact the SK government that a NK submarine carrying a commando group has infilitrated SK lines which left many S.Koreans dead. Guess this is how rednecks treat their allies?
SO PLEASE SHUT UP about Robert kim. He did well for his country and more then that he did it for something larger then himself which I doubt that anyone here on this pissy blog could say.
Robert kim’s release leaves more questions to be answered.
Should parents share matches with their children? They’re on the same side, aren’t they?
Anyway, “South Korea and the U.S. are allies, but South Korea and North Korea are brothers”. That about says it all as to why rednecks don’t trust you 100%.
“You”? And just who might “YOU” be? Frankly Jonathan pollard wouldn’t have been so bad had that incident been the first for Israel but for those who can do a little reading Israel has a history of stealing US secrects and selling it the “enemies” of the state. Take for example the J-10 chinese fighter which is based of the LAVI fighter which in turn was funded by the US based off the F-16 design(Israel sold the program to the Chinese)note this is one incident out of a thousand(honest to god its that bad).
What I am trying to say is that the info gained from the ops. that Robert kim pulled off was for the SK gov. only, I don’t think the SK gov. was going to sell it to the Chinese because they have their own version of C4I and they can buy mil. info of countries less aligned with the US which would result in less press coverage. AND C4I tech. , submarine photos will not get anyone KILLED the J-10 on the other hand well its a Chinese F-16 only supposed to be more agile. So yeah thats probably why pollard is in for life.
And who the hell says that SK and NK are brothers?
You probably mean the brotherhood of the SK and NK governments which I don’t think exists.
You know if you were korean which I highly doubt you mountain dew sucking tralier grub, you can actually be prosecuted by the National security law for just saying that. Brothers? I don’t think so thats just some old lame utopia dreaming bohemian not-in-reality dumb fucks view. Would you consider someone who shot your wife/sister/pet lizard your brother? The governments hate each other but I guess for each others political agenda they kind of need each other.
SK still considers NK an ENEMY. But and enemy they can use to gain political power which sucks ’cause then the government is never going to change and blah blah blah
And as for your lame comparison, International relations are just so much more complicated then parent-child relations. Unless thats how you were brought which explains why you are just so messed up. Bet you liked to swallow matchheads.
p.s During the Korean war and any war for that matter an ally was a “brother”. Why dont you ask any Korean war vet. you stupid shit.
DOGBERTS A REDNECK
Why are kyopo so indignantly angry when they’re so obviously wrong? Another of life’s little mysteries.
oh, tae, guess this is what happens when a gene pool doesn’t get enough variation. you can take the boy out of korea, but you can’t take korea out of the boy.
Tae1822,
Can you provide a link to verify that US knew of the missing NK sub and failed to warn South Korea?
As for refusing to share information on NK and China with SK, one reason the US doesn’t tell everything it knows is that sharing information can reveal technological capabilities and contact sources.
Finally, from what I understand, SK did not ask Kim Chae-gon to spy. He approached them to volunteer information.
He did well for his country
Er… His country ? the one he *chose* ? was betrayed by Robert Kim… He’s American, by his own free will. He fucked his country for some dopey, sentimal maudlin about the ole country he chose to leave. Tough. He could have focused on his job, and less on his ethnicity, and stayed out of the slammer. His choice…
To the Republican (perhaps?) that implied Jimmy Carter must have been involved in the loosening of U.S. law on dual-citizenship – actually it was neither an administrative nor a legislative decision. There were over time a series of court cases the result of which the government was required to recognize more flexible standards for dual-citizenship. There’ve been several notable examples where U.S. citizens have accepted high posts in foreign governments: Milan Panic became President of FR Yugoslavia till he fell out with Milosevic, then ran against him and lost in an election for prime minister. This had the backing of the US gov’t who naturally would have liked to see Milosevic lose power. There was another case (don’t remember the details) where an American became a big general or defense minister in post-Communist Lithuania. A U.S. citizen was elected to the Knesset and finally when he became Israeli foreign minister the U.S. gov’t requested that he drop his US citizenship, which he did voluntarily. If you have a parent or grandparent born in Ireland, you have an eligibility for Irish citizenship.
Speaking of which, the Irish often describe Irish-Americans as “more Irish than the Irish” – the IRA got a lot of its financial support from Irish-Americans who were willing to pay (at no risk to themselves) to see the Northern Irish fight it out to the last man. Fortunately that game seems to have run its course. There’s still lots of conflicts in the world though where one side or the other derives funding from immigrants in U.S., Canada, Japan, Australia….
The human heart is full of ambivalence – if it were not no one would betray their spouse. I like to see individuals have the maximum amount of freedom – have a whole library full of passports if that’s what turns you on. But have committment to the job you’re doing, most of all when its one where its needed and expected. This Kim sounds like a real hollow sort of guy – the director who wants to make a hero of him doesn’t sound a lot better..
Gee, Robert Kim really seems to get a lot of panties in a twist. With the things going on in the world today, he don’t really rate high on my radar.
Perhaps if the US had more such free thinking citizens, maybe we wouldn’t have gotten ourselves (and everyone else) into the fubar situation in Iraq (and everywhere else).
Oh, its nice to see Mizar5 getting out and about again.
neastud,
Mizar5′s ancient history – that post is two years old. BTW, how are Melinda and the Admiral getting on these days?
Who are Melinda and the Admiral? They sound like characters from a Porn movie?
(No offense intended)
Neastud:
Regular readers of TMH know.
Are you really a newcomer ? Or rather a reincarnation ?
That’s okay, neastud – no offence taken.
Gosh, you really get around – or, at least, you keep changing your IP address and so your flag keeps changing. So, are you really in the US? I’d always thought Hawaii seemed like a nice place – are you there? If so, perhaps you might know JD Hilts – he’s studying at the University of Hawaii. If you do know him, could you let us know how he’s been?
Wow, do I know you guys? This the first blog I’ve been to where people are so inviting and friendly. And so many questions.
I have but one question.
How did you know?
I’m impressed.
Okay, Neastud, maybe we really misjudged you. Your comments remind us of someone who used to post a lot, here and elsewhere…
Sorry about the blunder…
#53 – I’m not sure if you were referring to #52 as a troll, but my guess is yes.
#52 – You bash KA’s like you know what it’s like to be one. From my understanding of you from what you wrote, you don’t know the first thing about being a Korean American.
Can I ask, what was it that put you onto me? I only posted a few times under this moniker.
I say again, no more Kushibora stuff.
Infidel = STOCKHOLM SYNDROME
Any other pathetic justifications of those that treated you like sh*t as you grew up here in Korea?
ATTENTION TAE1822:
When you said “SK still considers NK an ENEMY.”
well, that is where you lost your credibility in a howl of reader laughter. Sure. No Moo-hyun and all he represents thinks that.
Are you on drugs?
Fantasy is John
May well be so…
By the way, why do keep changing your flag ?
The flag seems to change automatically depending on which country I’m in. Its annoying because it makes me look like I have a different nationality every time I comment. Or work at the UN or something.
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