James
aka Guns and Butter
aka The Asianist

I was referring to that other GB, gerry beavers

Korean social attitudes toward ?€śoutsiders?€?, however, are well known. Outsiders do not exist, are not fully human, and do not merit any consideration at all.This is a very good observation. The simplest way I would summarize this phenomenon would be “clanishness.”

It’s not that outsiders are not “fully human” or “do not merit any consideration” among Koreans. It is that what the sociologists call “the primary group” (family, close friends, school alumni) matters the most in Korean society. As outsiders are potential competitors, they are “allies” to the extent they serve a purpose, that of elevating the status and well-being of the primary group.

It is actually a typical tribalistic behavior. I have seen this from other tribalistic societies where promises within the primary group (or within a tribe) are held by blood oaths and scrupulously kept, but outsiders are routinely made use of or even betrayed for mere scraps. The problem for Western businessmen and businesses is that skin tone and language generally reserve ?€śoutsider?€? status forever.This is “generally” the case, but not always true. While Koreans, particularly uneducated Koreans, can be highly xenophobic, some Koreans take much apparent delight and pride from acquaintainting with foreigners who attempt to assimilate into Korean life.

Obviously, as “late” arrivals, foreigners face “high barrier to entry” (so to speak) into the inner sanctum of Korean primary groups. But it’s been done, and is possible if difficult.

As for Japan, while it is publicly more open to foreigners, and its legal and business practices more transparent for Westerners, Japanese primary groups aren’t that easy to penetrate for outsiders either (as my BIL can attest).

It is anecdotally interesting to me that I, who grew up in Korea, often find myself more at ease in Japan while my BIL, who married a Japanese woman, have three mixed children and live in Japan on a permanent basis, finds Koreans — according to his words — “more earthy, warmer and more welcoming than Japanese.”

“Grass is greener on the other side,” perhaps.

Moot. Sorry to break it to you, but (most) of those people are long dead and so is their then-government.

They may seem to be moral in business honesty but not in political honesty.

Okay…but seriously, since when is politics honest?

If nobody is exactly right the closest person to the actual number will take the pot. In the event of the difference between two people being equal, the two parties will determine the winner by a match of rock,scissor, paper.

Any other takers?

We are all human after all. God forgive us our sins. Even the sin of turning our back to our friends to make money. And, sin of despising those who look different from us with contempt. To err is human, to forgive divine.

Forgive me, Admiral, for my ignorance, but how does this three-times rule apply in light of the blitzkriegs in Afghanistan and Iraq? In Iraq, the initial six weeks of invasion and “major combat” resulted in 138 killed in action and 542 wounded. Three times those rates would still be pretty exceptional. Perhaps there has been a revolution in military affairs while you’ve been out, Admiral.

Or do you think the Korean People’s Army is more motivated and resilient than the Iraqi Army? Myself, I expect the KPA to be every bit as demoralized and brittle as the Iraqi Army, if not more so.

My mother, who were educated under the Japanese, thinks the Japanese are most moral people in the world. She insist that the Japanese do not lie, steal, cheat or break a promise. Even more virtuous people than white people.

Koreans are often baffled why anyone would prefer the Japanese to the Koreans in any capacity. In my own view, this is because of the Korean blind spot for honesty. It’s not important here, and therefore it’s hard for Koreans to understand why it would be important anywhere. And yet, it is. Especially to Americans.

As a professional who has experience with Japanese clients and with Korean clients, as well as with the resolution of disputes involving Japanese parties, Korean parties, or Western parties, I can attest to the fact that there is a marked difference between the Japanese and the Koreans in respect of performance of contracts and general trustworthiness. In other words, these two peoples view the meaning of “promise” quite differently. One would be hard-pressed, outside Korea, to find anyone in the world who prefers Koreans as commercial counterparts — because of their general attitude toward contract and often shameless penchant for fraud.

Depending on your definition of “morality”, then, the Japanese may indeed be more moral than Koreans. If morality contains a component of honesty and trustworthiness to outsiders, that is. The Korean brand of morality does not, at least from the perspective of an outside observer. My own experience is that within an “in-group” (in my case, our firm), Koreans are honest, faithful, and dependable. Our firm’s partners are honest to the point of seeking approval on the brand of copier paper we buy.

Korean social attitudes toward “outsiders”, however, are well known. Outsiders do not exist, are not fully human, and do not merit any consideration at all. Metaphorical knives are always ready to figuratively cut the throat of an outsider should he let his guard down.

The problem for Western businessmen and businesses is that skin tone and language generally reserve “outsider” status forever. One has to always be on guard against commercial counterparties and against one’s own employees, should they decide to define the tribe not as “Sample Company Ltd.” but as “finance department” or “us Koreans”. The foreign country manager or line manager dumped into a Korean organization is constantly being undermined. And we all know about embezzlement. Thus, it’s exhausting to be in business with Koreans.

Which is why there is such a need for business advisors such as foreign lawyers.

For an educated man, I am somewhat shocked at your display of lack of knowledge of what is actually going on in Korea. GB, are you reading the same Korean websites that I am?When you wrote “GB,” were you referring to me (Guns and Butter) or “kimbob” who actually made the remark in your quotes?

I ask, because I do not know what Kimbob’s real name or initials are, and were hoping you were not referring to me, as I did not make that remark.

James
aka Guns and Butter
aka The Asianist