Some members of the flock just need a little encouragement, that’s all.
The thing that’s, well, perhaps I should best say “surprising,” is that the victim’s family in Korea paid the legal fees of the three defendants and actually sent a written appeal to the judge, pleading for leniency. Yonhap even bitched (not directly) about the “cold, heartless” nature of the Australian legal system, which “doesn’t care about Koreans’ sentiment or culture.” I’m sure someone will translate the piece below in the comments — I’m not in the mood to do it now.
193 Comments
I think the complaining is coming from the Koreans who cannot understand that in countries where a strict rule of law is upheld, why a little beating by some well meaning Christians can be punished so ‘harshly’. In Korea, the cops probably would not have intervened since the incident would be seen as just a minor altercation on a private matter. I really think a lot of Koreans have yet to realize that once you leave Korea, you have to follow the rules, laws, and regulations of the host country cause you’re not in Korea anymore. It’s a good thing the judge threw out that weak of an excuse and gave those criminals a proper sentence befitting of their crime. And oh yah, the person who got carried off on a stretcher to the hospital, don’t worry about him/her. He/she has been watching too many Korean dramas. It’s a common Korean tactic to gain public sympathy. I doubt Australians would be fooled by that.
The thing that??s, well, perhaps I should best say ??surprising,?? …
Why don’t you really tell us what you mean?
I dunno, I mean, in this case I’d be more concerned about the “cold, heartless” actions of some looney-ass church members then the totally justifiable actions of the judge, regardless if it’s okay in whereverthehell you’re from.
If this really represents “Koreans’ sentiment or culture”, well, then… praise the Lord!! And God bless Yonhap, too.
Ridiculous. Blackmailing that way, not different from muslim.
Funny…
26??? ???????????? ????????????????? ?????? [...] ?? ???????? ? ?(37) ????????????? ?????? 12???????, ?????? ???????? ??(21), ??? ???(22)
They can’t quote a source properly. Can’t… or won’t? Suddenly, it’s ????, eh?
Chi Yeong Yun, 37, and Bible study teachers Tom Chae-Yong Lee, 22, and James Kang, 21
It’s interesting that the two guys with Western given names are quoted in full, but ???????? gets ?ized…
These Korean churches in Sydney are a problem in my opinion. That is not the only Korean church here that puts considerable pressure on people to attend services, and not just on Sunday.
Koreans are becoming Christians, while so-called civilized countries are quickly turning into heathens. Drug use, sexual sins, broken homes…
Koreans will create a real Christian nation firmly rooted in Living God. More Koreans are becoming Christians every day. Real Christians.
baduk,
I’m sort of interested in hearing your definition of a “real Christian”
Baduk,
So “real Christians” beat up their fellow Christians in order to make sure they remain “real Christians”? If that’s your vision of a “civilized society”, count me out.
P.S. You are either an absolute idiot, or in need of some serious pyschotherapy. Sorry for violating any “flame” rules on this site, but c’mon….
Or on second thought, you must be writing “tongue-in-cheek.” Oops, my bad. Sorry.
Note to self: Think more before writing hastily.
Other note to self: At least I hope to hell you were writing with sarcastic undertones…
I meant it. The definition of real Christian, “Born-again Christian”, someone who has personal relationship with Jesus.
I know it is PC to attack Christian principle and churches these days. So ahead. Make my day. However, if some of you are sincerely searching, I give you this website.
http://www.intouch.org/
Back to the article. A person does not die because she got some physical punishment. A marine drill sergent dole out physical punishment every day. As long as it is done with good intention, for example to make them reach their potential, the recruits love it. And, respect the sergent for the beating.
These men tried to stop this girl from hanging out with wrong crowd which can kill or lock her in prison for wrong time or give her AIDS. I would rather have these men beat her to her senses. There got to be a stopping force, rather than let it all hang out. They did not put her in hospital. Just some pain to stop her from doing what she was doing.
Yes, a girl at 19 with a mental capacity of ten needs a stopping force. We do this to a baby all the time, when the baby plays with fire. Drug, sex, wrong crowd can have the same effect with playing with fire.
Why not stop her from ruining her entire life if you can? With her parent’s permission, these church teachers gave her some smacking. I will allow the same if my daughter is misbehaving.
For some girls, group-pressure like these teachers was handing out does work.
Forgive me for bad grammar and writing style. I had to hurry to answer the phone.
Here is additional material if you are seeking THE meaning of life,
http://www.intouch.org/myintou.....76096.html
If everyone just worshipped Satan the world would be a much better place.
Religon is the opiate of the masses.
About the only thing Marx got right in my opinion.
So “civilised” countries are becoming heathens are they Baduk? Excellent! We need a few more heathens in the world if you ask me. I’m all for a bit more drug use and sexual “sin”.
As U.S. President Sam Adams said, “This would be the best of all possible worlds if there was no religon in it.”
Different strokes for different folks.
I am not “forcing” my belief on you. Somebody asked me what I believe, so I provided an website.
That’s all folks. No need to bend out of shape. I was once a non-believer myself. I perfectly understand where you’re coming from.
I was going to read the followup to the rest of the comments after I last checked it, but baduk posted. Nevermind.
some korean churches are legit but, as in so many other countries of this world, some are no better than cults. i know several “pastors” who have gone into the “clergy,” not because of their faith, but because they know if they build up their flock they can get a big church, apt., status, car, etc… And you don’t to think only of Moon Sun-myung, although he presents these guys with a great example. Think also about the COUNTLESS
it’s a good life if you can get it and it doesn’t surprise me at all that some of it would get exported to sydney. in addition to all the koreans who’ve been transplanted there permanently, think about all the lonely esl kids who are just waiting to be preyed on.
ooooops. i needed some divine intervention there when i accidentally hit the send button. i meant to say
think also about the COUNTLESS churches here in seoul.
Baduk, you got one thing wrong. These people aren’t Christians, they are Christian cults. There are thousands of these cults in Korea and overseas. They have been a big problem.
Kimbob,
You are too biased. There is no mention of cults in the news article. I re-read the article and it explain how it happened.
The preacher Yun had some special relationship with the alleged victim’s mother. And, he felt that he is responsible for the girl. They being in a foreign soil added extra burden to this preacher.
The article makes clear that the “beating” was not purely based on lack of church attendance. And, the church looks regit. From what I gather, they, Yun and others, took her to the park to talk some sense to her. However, she adamently refused and objected (maybe loudly) and that is when the “perpetration” took place.
I may project my reconstruction of their dialog.
Yun(and others): Why aren’t you studying? You are here to study. Stop hanging with wrong crowd. We have some nice people in the church. Attend services and spend time with us.
The girl: Fuck off! I am old enough to make my own decision.
Yun: Your mother is worried. You are a young woman and you don’t know how bad things can get if you hang with wrong crowd.
The girl: Hey, I know what I am doing. Yes, I smoke pot. Then, everybody does here. It is western thing and you don’t understand.
Others: You know what happens if you use drug. Men can rape you when you are high and you won’t even know it.
The girl: I am not a child. I have the right to have sex. We use condom.
Others: What happened to you? Koreans do not behave like this. Just think of your mother. She did not bring you up only to be a western hussy. Wake up! You are not a western girl. You are a cheap lay.
The girl: Fuck off! Fuck off! How dare you? You are not my family. You have no right to talk that way. I am leaving.
Yun slaps her here.
Yun: Wake up! You are a Korean. We are not drug users. We are not fornicators. We are clean Christians. Please remember Korean society. Your friends, your teachers and parents. We do not use drug and fuck around.
The girl: (Sobbing) yes, I do know my mother’s sacrifice…School was hard. I couldn’t keep up with vocabulary and math. Judy and the gang gave me a life outside the competitive school environment. I am sorry. I will change.
However, someone in the park saw the slapping and called the police. It is just misunderstanding of Korean culture. Again, the article mentions no medical treatment. I am sure there was none, other than her bruised ego.
It is more Australian police who wants make a statement that “You savages don’t do that here”. Well, Korean police gets accused of doing this to foreigners as well. Making examples out of nothing event.
Baduk wrote:
gbnhj,
Other teachers used it so that you don??t have to use it. Do you get my meaning?
Yes, I get your meaning - I just don’t agree with it.
Since that time, I’ve taught in a middle school and two universities, and have also volunteered at a high school. Order and discipline are considerations, of course, but have never required the use of corporal punishment. To this day, some university students will flinch if I suddenly pat them on the shoulder - they anticipate a beating, despite their having done well! It takes a long time for some of these students to adjust to the idea that they won’t be struck, but despite that, the class proceeds during that time without problems.
Sorry, Baduk, but that simply doesn’t provide an adequate defence.
Slapping when applied with right atmosphere and dialog can be a communication tool. It was like that here in the States as well in the fifties.
Koreans do not use belts.
However, punctuation or added stress is sometimes needed in conversation. Especially when “talking some sense” into someone.
It is cultural thing. Just like marines.
Korean Church Members in Sydney Beat Girl
3 Korean church members in Sydney have been sentenced for beating up a Korean girl (a foreign student) for not attending church regularly. This church is located just 20 minutes drive from my apartment.
A PASTOR and two Bible studies teachers bashed …
Nothing says “Jesus” quite like a good pummeling.
Kevin
Maybe it went more like this baduk;
This is ridiculous, how can you believe in some giant space boogeyman out there who controls some sort of “afterlife”, which itself is completely unobservable, and decides our fate after we die depending on the amount of money we pony up at his conveniently-located soul-saving centers? You oppose all form of scientific advancement because it’s too hard for you to comprehend the complexities of our universe, and you think that fossilized dinosaurs buried in the ground are some sort of test or trap setup by this mythical God-beast. Why can’t you admit that you’re just a preacher because you need an occupation? Why do you try to suppress the intellectual development of society?
*blink* *blink*
*KAPOW!*
Crap I bracketed it and forgot you can’t turn off HTML. First comment is the girl, last two lines are the comments of the guy who believes in the flying spaghetti monster.
Baduk, that was one funny dialogue if I ever heard one. If I also may say so, it’s also ridiculous if not ludicrous.
I say cult because even if the church looks legit, it’s cult in my books, when they start distorting the teaching of Jesus to fit their own extremism. Jesus didn’t beat people to come to his sermons. It’s no different from Bin Laden distorting the Muslim faith to fit his own agenda - hatred toward those who don’t agree with their own brand of religion.
It’s not anything like a little slap in the park, YoMoBaDuk…
The court was told Ms Kim was picked up at the Waitara train station on July 8 last year and was taken by the men to a park at Bobbin Head in northern Sydney.
She was kicked and punched for about two hours, leaving her with extensive bruising to her arms, legs and buttocks.
Two nights later, Kang went to Ms Kim’s home and smashed her portable CD player.
I can perform a mighty slap or two myself, but it doesn’t take 2 hours to deliver, and doesn’t bruise “extensively” arms, legs and *buttocks* [dirty perv at work, too?] at once…
Those guys, in any country, but especially outside Korea, are Neanderthal savages, and deserve what they got…
In enlightened 21st century, English lingo, the term is “tough love”. Some like myself swear by it.
Others, including Dr. Phil(NBC daytime talkshow, a spin-off from Ophra), oppose it.
Just like military recruits, some children will never listen regardless how many times you explain reasoning behind the correct action. A smack in the head is effective, as long as parents do not make a habit out of it. Some children need more than others.
Get off of your PC wagon and see the alternative (and may even advanced)child-rearing techniques.
Glad to know you plan to employ 2-hour beatings in your child-rearing techniques baduk. I hope you neighbors call the cops on you when you start kicking your daughter in the head for believing in evolution.
Glad to know you plan to employ 2-hour beatings in your child-rearing techniques baduk. I hope your neighbors call the cops on you when you start kicking your daughter in the head for believing in evolution.
OK, dda.
The additional facts you dug up make my argument null and void. I made wrong assumption due to deficiency of facts, like many at this board jumped in with prior bias.
Never mind. (Gilda Radner of Saturday Night Live)
CD player? Hmm..
I don’t know about anyone else, but I find this statement extremely ironic if not funny.
“like many at this board jumped in with prior bias.”
- baduk -
Let us not forget that Baduk is the one who said of the Gwangju Uprising:
Do you know how many died? Can you name one person, just one, who died? I dare this to another Korean and he cannot name one.
Why is that? Who are these people who died? Where is their family? Which school did they attend? Who were their friends?
No answers. No facts. Everything is fabricated.
Baduk, as you know, the article about the incident in Australia said:
She was kicked and punched for about two hours, leaving her with extensive bruising to her arms, legs and buttocks.
Two nights later, Kang went to Ms Kim’s home and smashed her portable CD player.
You have “authentically” recreated this scene in your little dialogue as a single slap in the face.
Two hours of beating, and it’s all just a cultural misunderstanding?
Really, I admire anyone who tries to argue with this racist, lunatic conspiracy-theorist.
Looks like others beat me to it. I particularly love how Baduk calls this information “the additional facts you dug up.” As if they weren’t there all along staring him in the face, right there in the article.
Sorry, I was reading a Korean article referenced. I will be more careful next time.
Kwangju thing needs more careful study. Normal people do not raid a police station and arm themselves against their brothers.
When this Rho government dissolves, more facts about Kwangju will come out. Most Kwangju uprising leaders had strong ties with the North.
Facts will surface (with the right administration).
The Korean newspaper article left out many facts quoted on Sydney paper. I guess all newspapers are biased. Facts are needed to be checked carefully.
Bad reporting by the Korean paper. Or, is it a Yellow journalism at Aussy paper? Murdock would have done it. “Savages, go home”! Murdock could have sold some papers.
CD Player? Hmm… Kang could have taken it home, if it was Sony.
If the news of Yun touching Ms. Kim inappropriately or Kang’s attempted rape surface, then it will complete the circle.
“Savages, go home! You guys look too much like the Japanese soldiers”
Aussy papers will have a field day. “All Koreans leave the country”!
Nobody is above racism.
CD player, Hmm… I wonder if Kang took a hammer with him. Have you seen Comedian Gallagher? He smashes things. Melons, toys, cucumbers, tomatoes…Quite “liberating” to see things get smashed under a giant hammer.
I hope Kang enjoyed smashing the CD player, if he ever did. Did Ms. Kim had surveillance cameras installed? Or, is it just alleged by Ms. Kim?
“Funny-looking Savages, Go home”!
I swear, one day Baduk is going to post, “I’m just fucking with you guys.”
A smack in the head is effective, as long as parents do not make a habit out of it. Some children need more than others.
Story of your life BaYoDukMo… You’ve either been smacked way too hard way too many times, or not enough. End result is basically the same, a mouth that runs like ?????, and a head as full of air as Paris Hilton.
One thing that I do agree with baduk though is Koreans who behave badly in guest countries then whine about being mistreated: “Go home???!
I saw the Paris video. Her head’s full of more than air now.
Damn my wicked ways. Where are some good Christian folk to come beat the hell out of me at times like this?
I had an interesting conversation with a juicy girl standing in front of a bar on the hill in itaewon tonight. I overheard a guy talking to her and asking if she would have sex with him. She said said seeing (and maybe feeling? Not sure) her tits was ok, but no sex, as she had accepted Jesus as her saviour. Thinking ‘wtf?’, and being a little tipsy, I walked up and tried to ask her what she thought about the gospel of thomas, (heh heh heh, gotta love the gnostic gospels, as they’re a great way to fuck with people who could never conceive that certain gospels were deliberately left out of the bible) but could i get the 3.5 seconds needed to quote one sentence from it? No fucking way. She wouldn’t let me speak as she blathered about the love of Jesus. Nice to see her faith was so strong that she wouldn’t let anyone challenge it - pretty typical of the christians i meet in korea.
And by the way, wtf is up with my co-workers playing christian music out loud on the computer in the staff room at work? If they’re trying to make shitty k-pop look good, mission accomplished.
Like Monica, Paris swallowed the evidence. AFAIK, it’s only air up there…
[The] Kwangju thing needs more careful study. Normal people do not raid a police station and arm themselves against their brothers.
Yeah, and normal ‘brothers’ don’t beat civilians for no reason other than ‘being there’ with batons designed to shatter bones with a single blow, bayonet them, strip them of their clothing, use flamethrowers on them, and open fire with M16s on crowds of people. Of course, they were all from Kwangju, so they deserved it, right?
There is a word for those “Christians” in Sydney who hit that young woman and for people like Baduk who agree with them — Pharisees. Like far too many Korean Christians, Baduk forgets the term means “Christ-like one”.
Or, rather, they never knew what Christian meant in the first place.
How can 20 million people so not get the point of a guy’s message? (Not that Christians outside of Korea are so good at listening to what Jesus and his 12 buddies said).
Like Monica, Paris swallowed the evidence. AFAIK, it??s only air up there??In the interest of full disclosure, I would like to see this video. Anyone got a link that doesn’t cost anything? And just to make sure there’s no connection, anyone got a link to the infamous video of the Korean actress in the hotel room from a few years ago? Or the Red Mahura? I just want to be sure there’s no connection, that’s all. Purely in the interest of research. At the very least, the last two videos will prove Korea does have its share of fornicators.
YoMo/Baduk wrote:
Slapping when applied with right atmosphere and dialog can be a communication tool. It was like that here in the States as well in the fifties.
Koreans do not use belts.
However, punctuation or added stress is sometimes needed in conversation. Especially when ??talking some sense?? into someone.
It is cultural thing. Just like marines.
A few years ago, I taught at an elementary school, and there was a stick in every classroom. I thought that they were being used as pointers, until I found a pointer, and the teachers explained what they used them for.
I tried to imagine what these little kids could do that would deserve a whipping, but couldn’t. As tough is it could sometimes get, I never needed one to maintain authority or progress in the classroom. And, it made me think about all the times I’d grabbed one to gesture or point at something; what must these kids have thought when I went for the rod?
Yeah, it’s a cultural thing, Baduk - a communication tool. Right.
gbnhj,
Other teachers used it so that you don’t have to use it. Do you get my meaning?
The same thing is true for Christianity. The western society is based on Christian principles up to now. Wait till it totally goes away and the western society becomes ultra-heathen. All Hell will break lose. You saw the foretaste of it under Roman Empire and under Hitler. Men killing men, women and babies for pleasure and entertainment. And, nobody will stop it.
Imagine worse things. It will come, under the Anti-Christ.
Imagine worse things.
You on a radio we can’t switch off?
Hell couldn’t be any worse than having to sit through a re-run of “Love Story in Harvard.”
These are the people I call ??ugly Koreans.?? You could easily find the ??ugly?? ones in the Korean church overseas. Christians are supposed to invite non-Christians to their churches, but it should be a purely ??invitation??-based. I am so sick of Korean overseas who often use the word ??cultural difference?? to save their ass.
I have a few friends (including my ex) who currently work as church pastors in the States, and they are more interested in social work and justice, which was the message we??ve learned from our seminary education in the States. But Korean pastors are quite opposite. They teach people to hate others (who don??t belong to them). Many Korean pastors in the States went to Korean-church operated school, which is not accredited and certified by the States, so they hardly learn and speak language and culture. (Although I couldn??t generalize this, freaks like Pat Robertson apparently exist in the U.S. church.)
If you read Korean netizens?? comments, a lot of them agree with me. They said that the church people went too far and should be punished by the Aussie law.
…or even an adequate defense…
As a (very) lapsed Catholic, I found it amusing to have conversations with Korean Khristians who insisted that Catholicism wasn’t Christianity…and equally amusing that Catholic women in Korea still wear a headdress/veil….
By the way, I ran the Chinese characters at the top of Marmot’s through a translator, and it said “respect king, seize ancient barbarian tribes.” Good advice
skindleshank,
Let’s not generalize. Do not lump-sum all Korean churches. There are many different kind of churches. However, most of them are grounded in the Bible. They are not lovey-dovey, wish-wash, love and love all (God understands all), forgive-and-forget type of churches.
We stress man’s responsibility toward God as well as His love shown to us through his Son.
About corporal punishment, I agree with you. There are some children who will be deeply hurt when they receive this treatment. For those, we should not use beating.
There are, however, the opposite types as well. No matter how many times, you repeat telling them, they will still misbehave or skip school. For these kids, something stronger than just talking-to is necessary. Actually, parents have to dole this out but in modern society parents are misbehaving as much as these problem kids. So, they are left to school teachers to correct.
Nobody has the time or interest to do so.
By the way, I ran the Chinese characters at the top of Marmot??s through a translator, and it said ??respect king, seize ancient barbarian tribes.?? Good advice
It means ‘Revere the Emperor (king), expel the barbarian’.
Not as elegant as my version
is it anymore than a bit of cultural misunderstanding? Most koreans at 19 are not adults (if they ever really become adults these days) and if they are in korea would have recieved the same treatment. the problem is that it is in Aust not korea, and there are laws agains beating.
it also makes me wonder how much bruising was present, as it doesn’t take much to support assault claims.
this is simply a case of cultural ignorance on the bahalf of the koreans, which is not acceptable in western (developed) countries and some misguided biblical principles.
props to baduk for putting what you believe out there. it shows the ignorance of others when they claim that there is such a thing as no religion or attack others on the basis of their beliefs. starting with the assumption that there is no God simply illustrated a humanist position which is no less religious. also for those who try to attack christianity on common misconceptions and self evident facts should consider how much faith is required to believe these kind of things (evolution comes to mind).
There’s no such thing as atheism and it takes faith to believe in evolution? That’s quite a stretch. Care to elaborate?
I wish baduk could point me toward a non-totalitarian Korean church somewhere near the Seodaemun subway station. I’ve attended four or five churches of various denominations and been turned off by all of them making a demand for 100% of my non-working time. “We loved seeing you for six hours on Sunday, but remember, we have a required fellowship meeting Monday and Wednesday nights too.” Yikes.
The problem with Korean Christianity is that it’s also a money maker. Believe in god and god will reward you with great fortune. Attend my church and you are saved. You go to another church, you have betrayed me and god. As Brendon pointed out, it’s not unusual for church people to expect from you all of your non working hours devoted to the church. Hypocrisy also rules heavy. Believing in Jesus is supposed to be having a personal relationship with god. Instead it’s not unusual to find in the Korean church, lieing, cheating, bickering, and in fighting .
This explains why over 50% of religious Koreans claim they are Christians, yet there is so much corruption and lieing in Korea. You would not expect that with so many Christians in a largely populated country as Korea. Where did all the Christians go? I mean it wouldn’t be unusual for a Korean pastor to give out a firey sermon on being honest with God in church. Then when he’s talking to you privately, advises you to fake your injuries to get insurance money after the auto accident you just had. Then he will take your hand and pray with you to thank God.
I have attended both Korean and Western churches, and I can tell you that there is a vast difference between the two. There are hypocrisy in Western churches too, but I have found that compared to Korean churches, Western Christians over all try to live the life that they preach. For Koreans on the other hand, going to church is more about earning points and getting approval from others. The church also functions as a Korean community center where you can meet other Koreans and deal in business, milking the goat to the maximum to get every advantages you can.
For Westerners, church is about God, and relationship with God. For Koreans, it’s a badge. This explains how a devout Christians from Korea can attend religiously attend church, yet go and frequently visit fortune tellers. Unconsciously, Shamanism plays a very important role in Korean churches. This explains why there are so many weird Christian cults in Korea. Korean people are naturally superstitious that they can be easily fooled with smooth talking. This is also a good reason why the business of fraud is such a huge business in Korea.
I’ve already gotten into unreasonably lengthy exchanges about my dim view of Christianity already, so I’ll try not go too far into it, but really why should Protestant Christianity be considered as representative of Korean sentiment or culture? This is pure red state American christianity. This religion has been here maybe only a few decades, has been brought here in toto by rural American missionanries, and cannot reasonably be regarded as something emerging organically out of Korean culture.
Kimbob,
Your sweeping generalization of Korean churches shows you are somewhat biased in this area. Again, there are many different types of Korean churches and denominations. Local churches have different members. While no local church is perfect, your description of all Korean churches and members to be corrupt and worldly to the core cannot be true. I hope you find one good congregation that you can love, be it Korean or Canadian. And, do not attempt to control God or make Him into your own “acceptable” god; that is your form of “Shamanism”. Read the Bible and learn God. Let Jesus be your Lord.
Brendon Carr,
I do not know many Korean churches. However, if you do not mind some loud praying, Full Gospel Church in Yeido may be well-prepared to receive non-Korean worshippers. http://english.fgtv.com/
Christianity didn’t originate in America. In any case, Korean Christianity is most certainly a reflection of Korean culture, which is why some Korean Christians may seem weird or cult-like even to Christians from other cultures.
JYC,
What would you consider to be a major religion that emerged ‘organically’ out of Korean culture: Confucianism? Nope, came from China. Buddhism? Nope, came from India. They may have been around Korea longer but they would only be considered ‘more Korean’ by western tourist who would rather see a mountainside temple than a neon cross. Like with Buddhism and Confucianism, Koreans have taken a foreign faith and made it their own.
The insulting part is the implication that Korean Christians are somehow less Korean because of their faith. I guess it would be more convinient for us outsiders if we could keep Koreans on their Confucian plantation.
conversations with Korean Khristians who insisted that Catholicism wasn??t Christianity??and equally amusing that Catholic women in Korea still wear a headdress/veil???.
Khristians are not the only ones to do so. Many American Protestants will do that too…
As for the headdress, you can find this in Spain or Italy, too.
I do not know many Korean churches. However, if you do not mind some loud praying, Full Gospel Church in Yeido may be well-prepared to receive non-Korean worshippers.
YoMoDuck, be serious. Not only you don’t know ?? you say so yourself ?? Korean churches but say other people are overgeneralizing [isn't that precisely a feature ?? or a bug ?? of the Korean society? Sticking to what others do have done and will do?] but mentioning ?????????? proves that you’re either a wacko [well, that we knew] and/or that you know diddly about the Korean society. These freaks are just a step below Moonies.
Shall I mention the little mailboxes in the lobby of this “church”, where fellows put their monthly allowance and get some pamphlets and shit? “Encouraged” contribution is/was 20% of your revenues. Kaching!
I do not know about the Korean services, but I’ve found the English services at the Anglican church by the British embassy to be quite pleasant.
Obviously this is more than just Korean Christianity — Korean Christians act just the same as Korean Moonies (who have not pretty much all divided up into hundreds of equally-wacko sub-sects). Pretty much all religious groups in Korea are marked by extreme enthusiasm. Heck, looking at labor unions and what-not, I guess all non-religous beliefs here are overly enthusiastic, too.
No idea if this is a long-time trait or a 20th century one, though.
dda,
“Encouraged”,not “coerced”. 20% is rather high. 10% is the recommendation. If you are so concerned about money, choose a church which does not set any guideline. You don’t have to give any money, if you are not comfortable.
Protestant churches are of wide spectrum. Choose one you like. No reason to attack who do give 10%, 15% and 20% of their income just because you don’t want to. You have not experienced what they have experienced.
Just like you, survival and accumulting wealth were the most important things in my life, before I met the Savior. You know what? We all die within 50 years. The God’s Kingdom is forever!
Having just watched A State Of Mind yesterday, I was reminded that it’s not just south Koreans who have a tendency to be devoted to bizarre cults. The fact it’s an important part of Northern society makes me doubt that it’s only a 20th century thing, but who knows? I guess you could look into the spread of christianity and donghak in the 1800s to see if you could find this same kind of enthusiasm - but I think perhaps mass-communication and leisure time may be preconditions (hard to devote time and enthusiasm to such things when you’re working in the fields all day long).
A State Of Mind, by the way, is well worth watching. It’s only in Seoul for a few more days, but plays in different US cities this month and next, according to the official website:
http://www.astateofmind.co.uk/default.aspx
Accumulation of wealth is the most important goal in crypto-protestant churches in Korea. I don’t need to find a church in Korea, because, a) I live outside Korea, and b) I am an atheist…
This discussion reminds me to recommend an excellent 4-hour PBS show I’m watching right now (god bless the torrents) called The Question of God. A panel of super-engaged smart people, all of whom claim a different belief system (the Christian fund manager, the atheist publisher, the agnostic lawyer, etc) discuss God and spirituality, with the lives and teachings of Freud and C.S. Lewis providing talking points. Highly, highly recommend it.
Links to series home, video trailer.
KrZ,
i’m happy to elaborate. but i don’t think that the marmots hole is the place to do it (unless nobody else minds). so if you have another forum where you think it would be more appropriate let me know. or i’m happy to discuss it through messenger or via email. my messenger id is rowanmaxwell @ hotmail.com and my email is the same at yahoo.com
The following is the Judeo-Christian argument:
1) God made man.
2) God’s kingdom is revealed to a great man named Abram.
3) Whole bunch of people, Jews, claim that they are direct descendants of Abram and that they received special rules from God.
4) Jews were told that they should wait for the Savior who would explain the Kingdom of God.
5) Jesus came about two thousand years ago and told them about the Kingdom of God.
6) Anyone who follows this Jesus can enter into it.
5) and 6) are only for Christians. Catholics are Christians in my book as long as they understand Gospels and believe in Jesus.
I understand all these mean baloney to non-believers who believe in something else, atheism, buddhism, egoism, mysticism, shamanism, ancestrialism, shintoism, Islam, etc.
Some theologians argue all religions lead to Heaven. However, they have no solid argument to support their claim, other than feelings. I wonder if they include shamanism or ancestor-worship in their definition.
Christians believe in the person of Jesus. He fulfilled many Messiahnic prophecies and His resurrected person was witnessed by over one hundred twenty people for more than forty days.(Acts Chap 1)
What followed were many disciples who spread the message about Jesus; notables among them include Peter, John and Paul.
This message about Jesus, after being received and rejected by many nations, now makes home at Korea. Korea will soon send out more missionaries than the U.S. It will become THE representative nation for protestant Christianity.
Not England, not America. Korea.
Ah, forgot to mention in #74 that one of the members of the panel is Frederick Lee, a Korean-American Harvard physician. A very interesting participant - As a scientist and a Christian he’s clearly thought a lot about how to reconcile faith with logic, so he has a lot to contribute.
“I think for someone like me, a scientist, it’s important that one do all the research, gather as much evidence as you can, approach it as a scientific question, evaluate the intellectual arguments. But then, as you said, it takes you all the way up, and what you find yourself standing at is a precipice, uh, extending infinitely down, with infinite implications. And whether you cross it or not, that is not an intellectual decision.”
He mentions at one point how his parents unquestioning devotion to Christianity is rooted in their gratitude to Christian missionaries who helped them get out of Korea during the war, and how reading Freud undid in 2 hours beliefs he had held for his entire lifetime.
What would you consider to be a major religion that emerged ??organically?? out of Korean culture: Confucianism? Nope, came from China. Buddhism? Nope, came from India. They may have been around Korea longer but they would only be considered ???more Korean?? by western tourist who would rather see a mountainside temple than a neon cross. Like with Buddhism and Confucianism, Koreans have taken a foreign faith and made it their own.
OK I had already thought of this, and I think the obvious answer is that it takes time for something to really be considered as representative of the culture, and this is just not possible with Protestant Christianity, which has practically just arrived. Anyway the Christianity that has thrived here is hardly ??Christianity?? per se, but is specifically red state American Protestantism. It is not Orthodoxy, which has been here longer and is geographically much closer, nor any of the other Eastern churches which actually sent missionaries here centuries earlier. Given that, I don??t see how this specifically rural American flavor of Christianity can at this time be taken as representative of ??Korean culture or sentiment,?? and nationalistic arguments for the behavior of the persons in question are unconvincing.
I didn’t say that Christianity was invalid because it’s somehow “un-Korean.” What I did say is that nationalistic rationalizations for some particular conduct in the name of religion are untenable because this particular religion has only been established here very recently and because it still preserves its national features from its place of origin, namely rural America.
I have a few friends (including my ex) who currently work as church pastors in the States, and they are more interested in social work and justice, which was the message we??ve learned from our seminary education in the States. But Korean pastors are quite opposite. They teach people to hate others (who don??t belong to them).
Now THIS is a valid example of “cultural difference”.
Just as a further aside on some of the peculiarities of Christianity in Korea, while I understand why rural Midwesterners want to bow down before blond Jesus (with any troubling Semitic features carefully expunged), I??m often been baffled as to why the rest of us need feel compelled to do so other than for reasons of a severe inferiority complex. It’s also an interesting question as to whether Korean Christians (and even American and European Christians) would be so enthusiastic if the Jesus they worshipped actually looked like a Middle Eastern Jew, which apparently, despite extreme denial on the part of Europeans and Americans, he actually was.
I wonder if the Buddha looked like an South Asian (which he was), or very much like an East Asian (which is how Koreans view him). Like JYC, I wonder if Koreans would be such enthusiastic Buddhists if the Buddha they revered actually looked like a South Asian, which apparently, despite extreme denial on the part of Koreans and Chinese, he actually was.
Like JYC, I wonder if Koreans would be such enthusiastic Buddhists if the Buddha they revered actually looked like a South Asian, which apparently, despite extreme denial on the part of Koreans and Chinese, he actually was
Since Buddha was a descendent of the people that conquered the dark skinned dravidians and forbade miscegenation (yes, the infamous ‘Aryans’), it is quite likely that he was fair skinned, and possibly even had blue eyes. Even now in India a few in the brahmin caste remain largely unmixed with the majority of Indians, and have fair skin and blue eyes.
I did get carried away with nationalism. Christians are Christians, wherever they come from. I just wanted to say that Korean churches are healthy and thriving.
Most ministers in Korean churches are U.S. theological school graduates. Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodists. Full Gospel split off from Assembly of God(AG) denomination.
These preachers are not quaks. Church members are taught in “Old fashion sound doctrine” directly from the U.S. theological seminaries.
I wonder if the Buddha looked like an South Asian (which he was), or very much like an East Asian (which is how Koreans view him). yaddah yaddah yaddah …
Please, you know perfectly well that this is a hokey and bogus comparison. The historically congenial relationship between Chinese, Japanese, Koreans with Indian civilization has never been anything remotely like the relationship between European Christians and Jews, and Buddhism doesn’t actually treat Buddha as God or as a prophet chosen by God, so his ethnicity is really less of an issue. I doubt in my entire life that I will ever meet an East Asian person (or any person) who will claim that Buddha was not Indian, while I have met Christians who claim that Jesus was not a Jew.
That said, the Sinification of Buddhist iconography is a point of some interest, though whether or not it emerged intentionally or out of the simple fact that there were no Indian models around to ascertain what he looked like is debatable (unlike Europeans who have always lived with communities of Jews, and even went on crusades to “liberate” the middle east). It’s also extremely debatable as to whether Buddha’s race is really important to Buddhists in the same way race and ethnicity have played an important role in Christianity or the way Arabs and the Arabic language play a role in Islam; I’m going to say “no” just based on what I see anecdotally on Korean Buddhist TV, which is always showing images of Bodh Gaya in India, as well as the Korean Buddhists I’ve known who have made pilgrimages there.
JYC wrote:Given that, I don??t see how this specifically rural American flavor of Christianity can at this time be taken as representative of ??Korean culture or sentiment,?? and nationalistic arguments for the behavior of the persons in question are unconvincing.Respect of elders, unquestioning adherence to a conservative orthodoxy, chastity for unmarried women, etc., etc. How does conservative Christianity not fit in with traditional Korean culture and sentiment?
The only traditional Korean thing that doesn’t quite fit in would be the keeping of concubines (which supposedly is one reason that Christianity didn’t become the state religion).
Dogbert wrote: wonder if the Buddha looked like an South Asian (which he was), or very much like an East Asian (which is how Koreans view him). Like JYC, I wonder if Koreans would be such enthusiastic Buddhists if the Buddha they revered actually looked like a South Asian, which apparently, despite extreme denial on the part of Koreans and Chinese, he actually was.So now we’re bashing Korean Buddhists, too, on a trumped-up suggestion based on a supposition that relies on a hypothetical?
Not bashing at all. JYC’s wandering argument aside, the fact is that the representation of a “blue-eyed” Jesus is analogous to the representation of an “East Asian-looking” Buddha.
FWIW, it’s common in black Christian churches to see representations of a black Jesus. If East Asians are feeling left out, perhaps they could do something similar. Come to think of it, hasn’t the Korean Sun Myung Moon taken that to its logical extreme and claimed to himself be Jesus? Rejoice, JYC!
Pfft… nope, they aren’t at all analogous because there is no equivalent of anti-semitism in Buddhist culture. Blond Jesus doesn’t look quite so benign in light of the historical relations between Christians and other communities, esp. compared to the historical relations between Buddhists and other communities. Anyway, Buddha isn’t God, a prophet chosen by God, or of a tribe chosen by God, nor is God even a important part of Buddhist practice, so his ethnicity is pretty much irrelevant and thus this is a bogus analogy.
P.S. If you really insist on lording cultural supremacy over the Buddhist world, you should be proud that Buddha was not traditionally represented in figural form until subjected to Hellenic influences and since virtually all figurative sculpture in historically Buddhist countries is of either Buddha or the Bodhisattvas, you can rest assured that every time a Buddhist bows down before an image, they are covertly acknowledging their debt to the cultural heritage of the West and the Greeks. Rejoice!
What are you on? And, of course, while Buddha is not traditionally a “God” in the sense that the Christ is considered a “God” by most Christians, many Buddhists do pray to the Maitreya, as well as the Buddha himself.
I’m not at all anti-Buddhist, I’m just pointing out that religious iconography naturally incorporates the features of the local population. I find that perfectly natural and not at all sinister.
In addition, while there are anti-semitic Christians, they are far outnumbered by pro-Jewish Christians, who, I might remind you, are often blamed for the pro-Israel bias of the U.S. government.
The way in which Korean Christians practice their faith is most certainly a reflection of their culture. In fact, the level to which Koreans have become Christian (40% and climbing) compared to the Japanese (stuck at 1-2% for the past 450 years) is both a reflection of and an influence on their culture. For whatever historical or cultural reason, Christianity speaks to Koreans. They are not going back on the reservation no matter how much we tourists think they are not being culturally “real Koreans.”
I hope the nobody is trying to say that the (in any case irrelevant) cultural defense that the Koreans made would somehow be more valid if they were Buddhist.
BTW, the Buddha/Jesus comparison is appropriate for the reasons listed in other posts. While we are on the subject, can anyone tell me what a Jew looks like? Since 72A.D. the Jewish faith has lost much of its ethnic identity. There are blonde French Jews and black Eithiopean Jews as well as what I assume JYC means by guys who ‘look Jewish’ (Middle-eastern).
Few would doubt that Jesus was a Hebrew or Semite (the ethnic group). Whether Jesus was Jewish (the religious faith) is a matter of theological debate best left for blogs dedicated to the subject.
“Most ministers in Korean churches are U.S. theological school graduates. Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodists. Full Gospel split off from Assembly of God(AG) denomination.”
That??s not true at all. I went to U.S theological school and know a lot about churches in Korea and overseas. Korean pastors who went to U.S. theological school were (mostly) sons of rich Korean church pastors, and these people didn??t even write their thesis in English. But right upon graduation, they are appointed in their fathers?? churches as successors. Most Korean mega churches still follow family inheritance (like Korean jaebul corporation). The real Korean pastors who went to U.S. theological school by their own couldn??t get a job in Korea, because old-fashioned Korean old senior pastors were intimated by them.
The best Korean pastor that I??ve met went to Wesley Theological seminary in D.C. and was appointed in a Methodist church in Northern California area. A few years later, he was basically expelled from his congregation, because he taught his congregation to accept other religions (esp. Buddhism). It??s shame. Honestly, the Korean church is the sickest place I??ve ever been to. If I became Christian again, I would rather go to Chinese or pan-Asian church.
Btw, Korean theological graduates (like ???????, ????????, ???????, some ???????) are pretty good. The bad(?) ones are usually from denomination-credited schools, in other words, their diploma aren??t approved or accredited by the government authority.
While we are on the subject, can anyone tell me what a Jew looks like? Since 72A.D. the Jewish faith has lost much of its ethnic identity. There are blonde French Jews and black Eithiopean Jews as well as what I assume JYC means by guys who ???look Jewish?? (Middle-eastern).
I have to get other stuff done and maybe will get to this later, but as for this point, physical anthropology done on the people who live there today and archaeology on grave sites from the time period, as well as historical accounts, and computers, rather than Rennaisance muralists, will give you the closest guess as to what Jesus (or any other 1st century Jew) looked like. It’s still just another guess, but one with far more evidence than blond Lutheran Midwestern Jesus.
June,
“Most Korean mega churches still follow family inheritance (like Korean jaebul corporation). ”
My guess is less than 10 percent because the congregation despise this practice. You are thinking of Billy Graham crusade and the possibility at Full Gospel church. I know a couple of others. They are oddities than the norm. Be careful about making this type of misrepresentation. Use “some” instead of “most”.
???????=methodist
????????, ???????, ???????= presbyterian
What do mean by “accept” othe religions? Is Jesus a Buddha as well? Jesus is the only who can tell. Not theologians.
American churches have more of “nepotism” problem. Oral Roberts ministry, Billy Graham crusade, 700 club, Crystal chapel, etc..
Korean churches are healthier. They frown on this practice.
June,
“If I became Christian again, I would rather go to Chinese or pan-Asian church.”
You go to church because you believe in Jesus and eternal life. You do not go to church to socialize and make friends. Churches are serious places and they are for believers only.
“If I wear a high heels again, I would wear white ones”. You have no idea about God. I wonder why you went to a seminary in the first place. To meet men? You give a bad name for seminary students: dingbats and neer-do-wells.
blond Lutheran Midwestern Jesus
I think “U of Wisconsin philosophy grad student Jesus” would be more accurate. BLMJ would wear cardigans, and facial hair would at most be a moustache.
Enough of this talk of Judaism Christianity and Buddhism… any educated person knows that all three religions have for years served only to oppress effessmism, the sole true faith.
JYC,
Not to be nit picky, but did you notice the last parragraph of my post that you quoted?
OK i have to go out again but ??
Respect of elders, unquestioning adherence to a conservative orthodoxy, chastity for unmarried women, etc., etc. How does conservative Christianity not fit in with traditional Korean culture and sentiment?
I didn??t say that these things didn??t fit in with traditional Korean culture. Calvinist religion and Confucianism obviously go together like peanut butter and chocolate. These things, however, were all there well before Christianity, why should they be construed as particularly Christian, and why should Christianity be argued as somehow part of Korean culture? It??s still a secular state at least for now. My argument isn??t that being Christian makes someone not a ??real Korean,?? it??s the opposite, that being Christian doesn??t make one a ??real Korean.?? The Australian church??s defense of its conduct on grounds of not understanding ??Korean culture?? is bogus.
As far as the very recent support of some conservative Christians for Israel, I don??t see how that possibly makes up for all their previous centuries of anti-Semitism. My point, which I??ve obviously gotten too far from, is that Koreans are still far too narrow minded to worship a Jesus that looks like he came from a ??backward country?? even if this is historical fact, and only lily white Jesus is acceptable. The point that this is also still largely true in the West was only made in passing. The points made about localized depictions of Buddha are irrelevant because there is no equivalent ??Anti-Indianism?? in Buddhist culture and you can??t seriously argue that Buddhist art was sinicized because of a racial antagonism to Indian people, in contrast to the role that anti Semitism has played in Europe.
And yeah I read that last paragraph, and that hasn’t stopped generations of Christians from denying that Christ was Jewish (either the ethnic group or the religion), and that the “Jews” killed him.
Andy Jackson writes:
While we are on the subject, can anyone tell me what a Jew looks like? Since 72A.D. the Jewish faith has lost much of its ethnic identity.
Ask and ye shall receive. At least in the “Lutheran Midwest” (I’m from the Catholic part, though), this is what a Jew looks like. Trust me, I grew up swimming in Jews, both in and out of the family. 90% of ‘em looked just like this guy. So I, for one, can tell you what a Jew looks like. But I really am partial to this one.
Then baduk weighs in, in his own — alas, all-too-imitable — way:
You go to church because you believe in Jesus and eternal life. You do not go to church to socialize and make friends. Churches are serious places and they are for believers only.
Why am I not surprised you advise others not to attempt to “control God” and then turn around to arrogate to yourself the right to judge, dictate to and control those who would try to know Him? Ideally a church is a welcoming place, where believers and non-believers are safe and loved.
Where are your new Christians supposed to come from, if they are not allowed to come and check it out? Must they master the Word first and only then darken the doorstep of your “welcoming” congregation? Romans 12:13 directs us to extend hospitality to strangers, and there is no test of authenticity or sincerity applied.
Are you a theology student, baduk? Bring this gem back to your Korean nation: When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. You know it from Leviticus 19:33-34, but I think it’s been left out of Bibles here.
I’m guessing you’re not affiliated with the United Church of Christ. Me neither. But I really like their style.
See, you are relating the men’s actions to their religion. And while no-one can argue that their action was not against their own beliefs, I see them as humans just like the rest of us, and yes as humans they did falter, and they are paying the price, it just looks worse because they are christians. The girl was not hositalised, and I know this doesn’t excuse it, but guess what this happens in Korean society even in overseas communities. So again, nothing to do with Christianity.
In my view, the girl took in the worst of the Australian culture with a lack of a real mother/father figure (being a OS student) to guide her closely and hanging around a bad crowd. and this difinitely clashes with Korean culture and Christian teachings so all the recipes for a major conflict is there. I kind of went through this myself but I was getting over it by the age of 19.
I really think the issue here is not that the men were christian, you might think that they were trying to shovel feed her the christian doctrines, but it is a cultural conflict between the girl who embraced the worst of the western culture, and the korean men who didn’t know how else to contain the girl to who’s mum they promised to give guidance to. Whether they were christian or not, the outcome would have been very similar. I can see how it would be hard to comprehend for a non christian/korean OS student or kyopo, the cultural struggles we go through everyday with our parents. It is on the grander scale a teething issue for the newly settling minority group in a foreign country.
Don’t talk to me about the “worst of Australian culture” when modern Korean culture tolerates untold numbers of 19-year-old prostitutes! ?????? ?????!
Jesus hated hypocrites, by the way.
It is on the grander scale a teething issue for the newly settling minority group in a foreign country.
By the way, with all the contempt for Western culture and love for Korean, why do Koreans such as yourself and those men emigrate to Australia in the first place? I’d really like to know.
above was for James,
And as for dogbert, I do not have time to reply extensively, but let’s just put it down to differences in our experience and perception of the world. In Korea such minor bashings for disciplinary mesaures would not even get that far. And the men were acting as guardians under the request of the girls mother, hence even tho not related they did care for the well being as defacto guardians. And I doubt the bashing was a 2 hour lasting affair. The news would have been exaggerated totally biased towards the girls POV. In the end you and I are just speculating, but at least I can claim to at least understand all sides of the story a bit better than you, and I am sorry if I have failed in conveying that.
<