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	<title>Comments on: Newsweek:   A Korean &#8216;Lovefest&#8217; &#38; Its Discontents</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Thu,  4 Dec 2008 04:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Paul H.</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22099</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 09:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22099</guid>
		<description>Kushibo: 

"...I??m glad you did bring up the Taiwanese, who are following a path not at all unlike that followed by Roh, yet are getting considerably less flak for it..."

Well, if it was up to me I'd be putting a lot more pressure on Taiwan to purchase the needed weapons.  But, the difference in emphasis put on the similar ROC and ROK postures is not at all surprising,  considering that there are zero total US military  forces on Taiwan ever since 1979 (though before that date I think there were only some US advisors and reconnaissance acft.  Pretty sure that the ROC has never had major US Army/Air Force combat formations on its soil unlike ROK). 

A posture I'd like to see the US duplicate vs a vs. ROK as you well know.  Should improve remarkably the clarity of the political thought process in some folks.   

I don't think there is even a US military attache in Taiwan (no "embassy" to have one if I'm not mistaken, I guess the US has an "interests" section of less than formal diplomatic status in ROC (?)).  

The US military isn't even allowed to do any staff planning for "contingencies" with the ROC military anymore! (Source, front page WSJ article on ROC -PRC potential military confrontation in 2001, after the US recon plane was forced to land on Hainan island after it was bumped by the Chinese jet (April? if I remember correctly)). 

Now that's definitely carrying it too far, you're right to point out US administration hypocrisy with its stance towards PRC vs that towards DPRK. 

But, it's a hypocrisy they've shared with all their predecessors...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kushibo: </p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;I??m glad you did bring up the Taiwanese, who are following a path not at all unlike that followed by Roh, yet are getting considerably less flak for it&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, if it was up to me I&#8217;d be putting a lot more pressure on Taiwan to purchase the needed weapons.  But, the difference in emphasis put on the similar ROC and ROK postures is not at all surprising,  considering that there are zero total US military  forces on Taiwan ever since 1979 (though before that date I think there were only some US advisors and reconnaissance acft.  Pretty sure that the ROC has never had major US Army/Air Force combat formations on its soil unlike ROK). </p>
<p>A posture I&#8217;d like to see the US duplicate vs a vs. ROK as you well know.  Should improve remarkably the clarity of the political thought process in some folks.   </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there is even a US military attache in Taiwan (no &#8220;embassy&#8221; to have one if I&#8217;m not mistaken, I guess the US has an &#8220;interests&#8221; section of less than formal diplomatic status in ROC (?)).  </p>
<p>The US military isn&#8217;t even allowed to do any staff planning for &#8220;contingencies&#8221; with the ROC military anymore! (Source, front page WSJ article on ROC -PRC potential military confrontation in 2001, after the US recon plane was forced to land on Hainan island after it was bumped by the Chinese jet (April? if I remember correctly)). </p>
<p>Now that&#8217;s definitely carrying it too far, you&#8217;re right to point out US administration hypocrisy with its stance towards PRC vs that towards DPRK. </p>
<p>But, it&#8217;s a hypocrisy they&#8217;ve shared with all their predecessors&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: baduk</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22098</link>
		<dc:creator>baduk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22098</guid>
		<description>Kushibo,

We are just small waves in the pond.  However, even a big Tsunami arises from small waves all moving in one direction.  You and I are influencing a handful of people, but when they influence others and so on and on, Watch out.  Dynomite(JJ in the "Good Times")!

I read the transcript of Pres. Rho's conversation with people last night on MBC TV.  I have to admit that his point of view(moderate and cooperative) is worth listening to.  And, he did come out and declared the anti-American view to be not practical.  He did explain his views well.  

Maybe I was too harsh on the president.  He did seem reasonable in many topics: economy, realestate, government policies, North-South relationship, regionalism, and the role of the president.  

He, however, still leans too much to the left.  Some of his people do as well.  I wish he were more on the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kushibo,</p>
<p>We are just small waves in the pond.  However, even a big Tsunami arises from small waves all moving in one direction.  You and I are influencing a handful of people, but when they influence others and so on and on, Watch out.  Dynomite(JJ in the &#8220;Good Times&#8221;)!</p>
<p>I read the transcript of Pres. Rho&#8217;s conversation with people last night on MBC TV.  I have to admit that his point of view(moderate and cooperative) is worth listening to.  And, he did come out and declared the anti-American view to be not practical.  He did explain his views well.  </p>
<p>Maybe I was too harsh on the president.  He did seem reasonable in many topics: economy, realestate, government policies, North-South relationship, regionalism, and the role of the president.  </p>
<p>He, however, still leans too much to the left.  Some of his people do as well.  I wish he were more on the right.</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22097</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 07:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22097</guid>
		<description>Baduk, he's listening to you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baduk, he&#8217;s listening to you!</p>
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		<title>By: baduk</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22096</link>
		<dc:creator>baduk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22096</guid>
		<description>Pres. Rho said this morning, 

?? ????????? ?????????? ????, "????????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ???? ????????????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???????? ???? ??????????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????? ????????? ?????? ??"???????? ????????.
Anti-Americanism, that all responsibility rests with the U.S. and all problems will be solved if we resist the U.S., is not practical and will fail.

? ????????? ???? "???????????? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ????????????????? ?????( ?????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ???? ???????????"?? ????????.
For the future of two Koreas and the security of the region, it is advantageous for Korea to cooperate with the U.S.



He finally realized that the majority of Koreans want a better relation with the U.S.  He cannot gain support for his Anti-American posture any longer.  So, he started to sing a different tune.  He is against demolishing the MacArthur statue and now he stresses more cooperation between SK and the U.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pres. Rho said this morning, </p>
<p>?? ????????? ?????????? ????, &#8220;????????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ???? ????????????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??? ?? ???????? ???? ??????????????? ????????? ?????? ???????????? ????????? ?????? ??&#8221;???????? ????????.<br />
Anti-Americanism, that all responsibility rests with the U.S. and all problems will be solved if we resist the U.S., is not practical and will fail.</p>
<p>? ????????? ???? &#8220;???????????? ???????????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ????????????????? ?????( ?????? ?????????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ????????? ???? ???????????&#8221;?? ????????.<br />
For the future of two Koreas and the security of the region, it is advantageous for Korea to cooperate with the U.S.</p>
<p>He finally realized that the majority of Koreans want a better relation with the U.S.  He cannot gain support for his Anti-American posture any longer.  So, he started to sing a different tune.  He is against demolishing the MacArthur statue and now he stresses more cooperation between SK and the U.S.</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22095</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22095</guid>
		<description>Paul H. wrote:My point is that I think both countries (ROC and ROK) presume the patience and resources of the US to come to their aid is infinite. A most convenient posture for the politicians of both countries to assume, since it provides them with free disaster insurance.I do understand the frustration you're feeling, but in both Seoul's and Taipei's case, I think they really believe that engaging the enemy diplomatically and economically is making the prospect of war less likely, which would keep their own troops and U.S. troops more out of harm's way. 

After all, it's not just U.S. lives and materiel that would be destroyed, but the homes, families, and societies of these decision-makers in Taiwan and in South Korea. I don't think they would be doing what they're doing if they really thought it were increasing risk of confrontation (whether they're right or not is a different matter).

By the way, Paul, I'm glad you did bring up the Taiwanese, who are following a path not at all unlike that followed by Roh, yet are getting considerably less flak for it (maybe because they're engaging the same threatening communist dictatorship that the U.S. is).Well, maybe it will indeed continue ??infinitely?? into the future. Let??s hope Iraq doesn??t continue to tie down US resources ??infinitely?? as well, and that the high cost of oil doesn??t lead to a US recession just as all the baby boomers begin to retire and the enormous US budget deficits and consequent national debt begins to accelerate even faster.I really hope it doesn't turn out that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul H. wrote:My point is that I think both countries (ROC and ROK) presume the patience and resources of the US to come to their aid is infinite. A most convenient posture for the politicians of both countries to assume, since it provides them with free disaster insurance.I do understand the frustration you&#8217;re feeling, but in both Seoul&#8217;s and Taipei&#8217;s case, I think they really believe that engaging the enemy diplomatically and economically is making the prospect of war less likely, which would keep their own troops and U.S. troops more out of harm&#8217;s way. </p>
<p>After all, it&#8217;s not just U.S. lives and materiel that would be destroyed, but the homes, families, and societies of these decision-makers in Taiwan and in South Korea. I don&#8217;t think they would be doing what they&#8217;re doing if they really thought it were increasing risk of confrontation (whether they&#8217;re right or not is a different matter).</p>
<p>By the way, Paul, I&#8217;m glad you did bring up the Taiwanese, who are following a path not at all unlike that followed by Roh, yet are getting considerably less flak for it (maybe because they&#8217;re engaging the same threatening communist dictatorship that the U.S. is).Well, maybe it will indeed continue ??infinitely?? into the future. Let??s hope Iraq doesn??t continue to tie down US resources ??infinitely?? as well, and that the high cost of oil doesn??t lead to a US recession just as all the baby boomers begin to retire and the enormous US budget deficits and consequent national debt begins to accelerate even faster.I really hope it doesn&#8217;t turn out that way.</p>
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		<title>By: usinkorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22094</link>
		<dc:creator>usinkorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22094</guid>
		<description>Correct.  The Soviet Union and China were blood brothers (especially the Chinese) in despotic communism with the North Korean regime, and they were not given free reign, but managed to keep a 45 year relationship in which the regime in Pyongyang ran the country as it saw fit.

I don't see the gifts and goodwill flowing from the industrial democracies leading to the regime giving access to those nations it didn't give to its communist friends.

Of course, the Russians and Chinese were not pushing for democratic capitalist reforms. 

But then again, nobody is today either.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct.  The Soviet Union and China were blood brothers (especially the Chinese) in despotic communism with the North Korean regime, and they were not given free reign, but managed to keep a 45 year relationship in which the regime in Pyongyang ran the country as it saw fit.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the gifts and goodwill flowing from the industrial democracies leading to the regime giving access to those nations it didn&#8217;t give to its communist friends.</p>
<p>Of course, the Russians and Chinese were not pushing for democratic capitalist reforms. </p>
<p>But then again, nobody is today either&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: baduk</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22093</link>
		<dc:creator>baduk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22093</guid>
		<description>Kushibo, 

You brought up "Shinuiju incident" and it shows what China wants in regard to NK.  China will not let NK be prosperous;  China wants NK to be its servant, a satellite nation.

When Korean unification comes, this intention of China will become so very apparent.  Chinese domination of Korea will equal that of Japan: cruelties, inhuman conditions, segregation, demolition of Korean culture and language, and land stealing.  China had ruled Korea for thousands of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kushibo, </p>
<p>You brought up &#8220;Shinuiju incident&#8221; and it shows what China wants in regard to NK.  China will not let NK be prosperous;  China wants NK to be its servant, a satellite nation.</p>
<p>When Korean unification comes, this intention of China will become so very apparent.  Chinese domination of Korea will equal that of Japan: cruelties, inhuman conditions, segregation, demolition of Korean culture and language, and land stealing.  China had ruled Korea for thousands of years.</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22092</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22092</guid>
		<description>Chinese and Russian citizens in North Korea weren't walking examples of a free and prosperous West.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chinese and Russian citizens in North Korea weren&#8217;t walking examples of a free and prosperous West.</p>
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		<title>By: usinkorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22091</link>
		<dc:creator>usinkorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22091</guid>
		<description>I would think China and Russia killed them with kindness for about 45 years and look where it got them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would think China and Russia killed them with kindness for about 45 years and look where it got them.</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/08/21/newsweek-a-korean-lovefest-its-discontents/#comment-22090</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1939#comment-22090</guid>
		<description>What has North Korea??s economic zones produced?About as much as China's first two SEZs at this point in the game.The answer to that is one reason I get frustrated hearing people tout the North??s moves as ??serious?? reform and a sign of a positive future. In effect, North Korea has strangled itself through an inability and unwillingness to follow the China model. It sets up the zones for failure by the leakage-prevention safeguards it surrounds them with.An unwillingness to follow the Chinese model? The Chinese arrested the North Koreans' hand-picked governor for Shinuiju who had promised the very thing you suggest!

At any rate, I'm focusing less on the economic change than the social change. The SEZs have changed the social fabric of China and how the governing elite deals with its people. That's something Beijing tried to keep a lid on but eventually realized it couldn't. 

Engagement, even if it is not economic projects but just tourism of Pyongyang, for example, is going to irrevocably change North Korea. A very little bit at first, then more and more. It is a very, very powerful thing.

Demonization and isolation has failed to topple the North. It's time to kill them with kindness. Just plan on holding your nose for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What has North Korea??s economic zones produced?About as much as China&#8217;s first two SEZs at this point in the game.The answer to that is one reason I get frustrated hearing people tout the North??s moves as ??serious?? reform and a sign of a positive future. In effect, North Korea has strangled itself through an inability and unwillingness to follow the China model. It sets up the zones for failure by the leakage-prevention safeguards it surrounds them with.An unwillingness to follow the Chinese model? The Chinese arrested the North Koreans&#8217; hand-picked governor for Shinuiju who had promised the very thing you suggest!</p>
<p>At any rate, I&#8217;m focusing less on the economic change than the social change. The SEZs have changed the social fabric of China and how the governing elite deals with its people. That&#8217;s something Beijing tried to keep a lid on but eventually realized it couldn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Engagement, even if it is not economic projects but just tourism of Pyongyang, for example, is going to irrevocably change North Korea. A very little bit at first, then more and more. It is a very, very powerful thing.</p>
<p>Demonization and isolation has failed to topple the North. It&#8217;s time to kill them with kindness. Just plan on holding your nose for a while.</p>
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