A friend sent over an interesting read by Jared Diamond (he of Guns, Germs and Steel fame) on the Korean roots of the Japanese people (published in Discover in 1998). Many of you have probably read it before, but in case you haven’t, give it a look. Here’s just a sample to get you interested:
One theory is that Jomon hunter-gatherers themselves gradually evolved into the modern Japanese. Because they had already been living a settled existence in villages for thousands of years, they may have been preadapted to accepting agriculture. At the Yayoi transition, perhaps nothing more happened than that jomon society received cold-resistant rice seeds and information about paddy irrigation from Korea, enabling it to produce more food and increase its numbers. This theory appeals to many modem Japanese because it minimizes the unwelcome contribution of Korean genes to the Japanese gene pool while portraying the Japanese people as uniquely Japanese for at least the past 12,000 years.
A second theory, unappealing to those Japanese who prefer the first theory, argues instead that the Yayoi transition represents a massive influx of immigrants from Korea, carrying Korean farming practices, culture, and genes. Kyushu would have seemed a paradise to Korean rice farmers, because it is warmer and swampier than Korea and hence a better place to grow rice. According to one estimate, Yayoi Japan received several million immigrants from Korea, utterly overwhelming the genetic contribution of Jomon people (thought to have numbered around 75,000 just before the Yayoi transition). If so, modern Japanese are descendants of Korean immigrants who developed a modified culture of their own over the last 2,000 years.
The last theory accepts the evidence for immigration from Korea but denies that it was massive. Instead, highly productive agriculture may have enabled a modest number of immigrant rice farmers to reproduce much faster than Jomon hunter-gatherers and eventually to outnumber them. Like the second theory, this theory considers modem Japanese to be slightly modified Koreans but dispenses with the need for large-scale immigration.
By comparison with similar transitions elsewhere in the world, the second or third theory seems to me more plausible than the first theory. Y, Over the last 12,000 years, agriculture arose at not more than nine places on Earth, including China and the Fertile Crescent. Twelve thousand years ago, everybody alive was a hunter-gatherer; now almost all of us are farmers or fed by farmers. Farming spread from those few sites of origin mainly because farmers outbred hunters, developed more potent technology, and then killed the hunters or drove them off lands suitable for agriculture. In modern times European farmers thereby replaced native Californian hunters, aboriginal Australians, and the San people of South Africa. Farmers who used stone tools similarly replaced hunters prehistorically throughout Europe, Southeast Asia, and Indonesia. Korean farmers of 400 B.C. would have enjoyed a much larger advantage over Jomon hunters because the Koreans already possessed iron tools and a highly developed form of intensive agriculture.
Read the rest on your own.
{ 92 comments… read them below or add one }
Actually the third theory makes the msot sense to me.
For the first to work there would have to have been large amounts of trade between the peninsula and Japan. And while that is possible, the distances and technology at the time would have made it harder.
The second theory presumes that there were millions in the first place and that they simply moved over because the boat ride and up-rooting their whole community was a small price to pay for heading to some strange island and starting over. Usually people a large migration of people is spurred on by the influx of even more people on their tail.
The third theory of a select few groups making the journey and then eventually dominating the islands rings a little more true to me. They came, they saw, and after quite a longtime, they kicked some butt!!
For those who do not enjoy these theories I simply wonder; where do they think the japanese people came from?
Cue up flame by Chewbaccahachi here:
Hi Robert… need to chat with you, but your e-mailbox is full. Could you drop me an email (joe, over at windsofchange.net) from an alternate address when you get a chance? Many thanks!
Wet rice cropping in Japan starts few hundred years earlier than in Korea. The number of the prehistorical ruins (for wet rice cropping) can be found 10 times more in Japan as well, but this might depend on the progression of archaeological explorations in both countries…
Check out the map and you’ll see many parts of Japan are at the same latitude with Yangtze river. Why would you adopt rice to colder and drier Korea and then bring down to Japan? There are no evidence that Jomon people were chased out to the north. Rather, native Japanese and newcomers seemed to be peacefully and slowly merged to what eventually became Japanese. Yayoi people tattooed just like Jomon people as the Chinese records suggests.
I’ve read this article on Korean newspaper in 2003.
I remember the young Koreans on NAVER were hyped with it.
Japanese are mixture of Jomon and Yayoi and maybe polynesian too.
Japanese and Koreans are very close but not closest according to recent DNA analysis.
Japanese have the HLA B52-DR15 more than 8%.
Koreans have it only 1.4?¼…, Korean Chinese æœ??®®æ?? have 2.2?¼…, Northern Chinese have 1%, Eastern Mongolians have 5.9%.
The HLA is found from South~West Japanese more.
So that was what Yayoi people brought.
But hey, Koreans have roots in Mongol, don’t they?
look, the truth about the japanese is very simple and becoming more known as time goes on:
the kin of korean folk enculturated japan, helped to populate japan, and provided the oringins of the royal line to the japananese people. what’s wrong with that? why do the japanese have such problems with their connections to koreans?
shakee baby, would you like some tissue?
I’ts been years since I’ve had a course in Japanese history and even then it was specialized on immediate pre-industrial Japan (around 1600-1860). However, I do recall that the peaceful assimilation theory of possible continental migrants runs into a major problem. Yayoi culture saw the advent of bronze instruments, namely weapons, and organized warfare.
I’m not saying I support any one theory, but the lack of archaeological record supporting this mentioned in #4, if true, could easily be explained by two factors: major destruction from the Korean War, and the fact that justifiers of absorbing Korea into Japan had an agenda to support (contrary evidence could be neglected, lost, or deliberately misinterpreted).
But even the Museum of Natural History (?) in Ueno Park acknowledges that “Koreans exerted great genetic influence on Japan.”
cockpit of future conflicts by martin jaques
http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,1533979,00.html
I can give a rat’s ass where Japanese people came from. I always thought that they came from the sun gods and mixed with some south Asians to create a modern Japanese. But what do I know.
Japan and Korea have different way of history research.
Japanese prefer to seek scientific analysis and archaeological record more than theories.
So it’s difficult give an final answer.
Koreans prefer theories such as the first Korean Tangun was a son of god, and built Tangun tomb in 90s! to back up the theory.
I saw the young Koreans who watched MBC Tangun special program saying that Korea has now 10000 years of history on NAVER.
Come on Gorea, you used to be at least academic sorta, when you made a snappy come back. You can do better than that. I believe in you.
What to expect? He reads and participates in Naver, an internet version of Jerry Springer show.
Well. I like Jared Diamond. I am his fan. BUT, sorry, he is no authority on this subject. He is a biologist. Period. And these questions have been debated for about a century. By “debate” I do not mean shouting matches between Korean and Japanese nationalists (those clowns have remarkably small impact on the real discussion, largely waged by the non-local linguists who do not give a damn whose … hmmmm, well, history is longer). Dozens of books, largely incomprehensible for a lay reader (ever tried to spend $150 on a book on the comparative linguistics and then make sense of what you see?)So it happened that one of the leading authorities on this issue spent this hot Seoul July as my personal guest. Frankly, I am dissapointed by what I learned about the most current state of research in the area. Even few things which have appeared to be certain for last 30-40 years now are now again questioned by many scholars – like, say, similar origin of the Korean and Japanese languages (“origin” as different from old connections). Again, this is a topic of a really large research, and Jared Diamond, I presume, read some semi-pular publications or textbooks which reflect one of many opinions and probably consulted some scholars.
it’s interesting how lirelou tells us diamond is wrong but doesn’t tell us how. still further, does one need to be an anthropologist to talk with authority on this subject? is lirelou an anthropologist? and who is this ‘expert’ he speaks of? easy to writee whatever you want, no?
‘japan has no problem admitting it’s korean origins.’
that’s a boldface lie.
‘koreans need to go on and on about this.’
i don’t hear many koreans go on and on about this. this subject is only important to me as it relates to korea and not japan. the japanese, by telling a warped version of their history, in turn, tell a warped history of korea.
nothing wrong with setting the record straight, and that record is clear:
korea is the origin of the people who called themselves ‘yamato’.
lastly, understand there’s a difference between yayoi and yamato. so don’t try being sly, k?
oops, i meant lankov not lirelou.
‘WE KILLED MORE AFGHANIS THAN THEY KILLED US!’ roared the visceral of dr lankov.
After all, didnt the emperor himself acknowledge that the mother of the 1st emperor Kammu came from the Kudara
No. Precisely, he said ?½?I feel a connection with Korea, since Emperor Kanmu (the 50th emperor) wedded Kudara-origin person?½?. That Kudara-origin person happened to be an 8th generation, so most of Americans won’t be “American” if we apply the Korean definition.
Again, migrations from the continent didn’t happen in one day, or one century. Japanese traditional high-floor housing have a similarity with Humudu culture (up to 6,500 years ago near Yangtze), and the two cultures share oldest laquerware tradition in the world. DNA samples of oriza rice found in Nabatake ruins (2,700 yrs old) indicate that it came from Yangtze as well.
It’s obvious that Spring and Fall Dynasties era and all the way to Three Kingdoms era on the later Han Dynasty had so much more effects on migrations and cultural diffusions to both Korea and Japan. There is no doubt that Kudara is responsible for the spread of Buddhism in Japan, but nonetheless the peninsula was only a quick stop on the highway as it always has been.
If you go to Kyushu, the Korean influence is very strong
Yes, and if you go to Busan, the Japanese influence is very strong, much more so than Seoul:)
Seems like a no-brainer to me…Koreans love to leave Korea. How about the common roots of both the Korean and Native American peoples?
The study of languages offers quite a challenge, in that they can survive unchanged for millenia and then undergo rapid change that renders them unintelligible to neighboring groups who once spoke related tongues. This is evidenced by comparing English in Chaucer’s time (the original, with its double infinitive sentence endings) with that of Shakespeare’s. Or, when you consider that the Rus vikings could sail the Baltic and communicate freely with their Norse speaking counterparts, but their modern descendents speak Russian. Culture can likewise undergo dramatic change. Perhaps, then, the real solution is massive DNA testing. If DNA samples were routinely taken from all new-borns in Japan, Korea, and China, a more accurate picture could be drawn of just who the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are. The results might just be a surprise to the ultranationalists.
“why do the japanese have such problems with their connections to koreans?”
Don’t think that Japanese have problems admitting the INFLUENCE of Korean lineage at all. After all, didnt the emperor himself acknowledge that the mother of the 1st emperor Kammu came from the Kudara (Baekjae) kingdom on national TV? History books and literature abound with the influence of the Chosun peninsula on the local strain of the population.
The only part which slightly jars the Japanese populace is HOW the Koreans will always shove this down the throats of Japanese and even westerners as if to prove their superiority. Any normal person would find such obnoxious boasting very tiring after a while so I cant blame the Japanese. Also, I think that if the Koreans would not overly exaggerate their influence to where they claim everything in Japan from the actual people, tempura, sushi, kendo, ukiyoe, art, hiragana, the language, the clothes, karaoke, the technology, and even the air and land which the Japanese people breath and walk on originates or was invented in Korea, the Japanese would probably be alot more receptive of claims from Korea. I guess its basically a matter of cooling the fire with water or igniting it more with flames.
The better question in my opinion is, “why are Koreans obsessed with always trying to prove themselves worthy by claiming credit for anything Japanese?” Next thing you know, they will claim that Michael Jordan is Korean. I hardly ever see Japanese boasting about how Korean TV and pop culture is modeled after that of Japan or how Samsung and Hyundai were basically funded and based on Japanese models.
If you go to Kyushu, the Korean influence is very strong, much more so than Honshu. As far as the ancestral origins of modern Japanese goes?€? I think that if I had to choose one of the three, the third version or a variation of it sounds the most plausible to me. I think one of the main points that is missed in this article is that while there is some truth to the fact that farmers were able to displace hunter-gatherers because they were able to out breed them (out number), perhaps more than that, farming and farmers bring a focus on control, who eats what off the land, how and what is cultivated and even access to the land. This gives land and the ownership thereof great meaning and value, particularly when connected to the ability to reproduce. Hunter-gatherers, while certain to be territorial to a certain extent, would not have been able to place the same value on ownership of land because game is transient. Animals that are hunted are connected to the land but only very rarely to specific plots of land. The plains Indians placed value on land for its ability to support the vast herds of buffalo, not on specific pieces or plots of land. It is precisely this access to arable land that I believe would have led Korean farmers to settle on the Japanese islands and make their own cultural and genetic contributions to modern Japan.
My mistake. The Kudara-origin person was the mother of Emperor Kanmu.
Nulji, Me thinks you have mixed my name with someone else’s post. A tip of the hat from rainy Seoul ;-}
Nulji, thank you for showing again that all you Nazi clowns are the same. I did say that the Soviet Army killed few millions of Afgans, and I consider this is a shameful thing. But this is brhind your comprehension. Being a typical Nazi, you thought I am proud of it, like you definitely would be. You obviosuly dream of killing all non-Koreans and also all Koreans who are too smart to believe your lies. The only people whom we Russians have killed in large quantities and about whom I do not feel sorry at all, are your German comrades and fellow minders, led by Hitler. But please, you admirer of the Japanese army, do no invent something I did not say, even if this is a behavour one should expect from such a zelous student of Dr.Hoebbels.
re anthoropolgists/non-anthropologists: the problem is that Diamond writes about a very complicated topic. The problem is that it is a bit like discussing an article of, say, the some highly controversial subject in nuclear physics on the basis of a popular article written for, say, ‘Discovery’ by a person who, at all probability, is even unable to comprehend a thing in an authentic research article written in highly arcane professional language, but relies on others people re-tellig of the story.
re anthoropolgists/non-anthropologists: the problem is that Diamond writes about a very complicated topic.
Anthropology is a false science when it comes to the origins of the races. DNA testing tells us that the Korean people are closer genetically to Chinese than they are to Japanese.
why do the japanese have such problems with their connections to koreans?
Japanese dont have a problem with possible connections with Korea. But the fact of the matter is, there is little evidence at this point to show that the people that mixed with the proto Japanese have a strong genetic influence on the people populating the ROK and the DPRK. With all the internecine warfare on the peninsula, and the fall of several civilizations, it is quite possible that the current Koreans are not the decendents of the people that helped to populate Japan.
Chonko also noted that Koreans are quick to claim Japanese achievements as their own, including tempura, sushi, kendo, ukiyoe, art, hiragana and to which I would add Karate, Judo, Tea Ceremony, Aikido, most Japanese animation (yes, they rip off the animation, and most Koreans think it is Korean and get angry when they are corrected – like kelopi), etc. If its something positive, then Koreans will claim credit for it. On the other hand, anything bad in Korea was forced on Korea by Japanese, according to Korean (example, prostitution).
Claims of genetic connections are also accompanied by false claims that Koreans ruled Japan.
I think the main problem Japanese have with the Koreans claiming common ancestors is the way that they seem to think that somehow makes them better that the Japanese, and that the Japanese owe the modern day inhabitants of the ROK and the DPRK for it. The obsession on this issue is totally on the Korean side. Japanese couldnt care less.
Well, genetics is only one part of the issue. Good example – your humble self. My great-grandparents were: a) serfs in what is now eastern Poland; b) minor landowners in the same area; c) farmers in an area roughly between Moscow and Petersburg (obviously, descendants of some Finnish-speaking tribes who had lived in those lands for millennia); d) semi-nomadic hunters in North-West Siberia. Well, and what my genes are likely to say about my humble self? It’s necessary to distinguish between physical origin and origin of the language and culture. Generally speaking, people who live in a particular area tend to be descendants of those who have lived the same for millennia, but they sometimes change their languages and cultures completely. Nowadays, Arabic is spoken from Iraq to Morocco, but 15 centuries ago it was a dialect of few small tribes in what is now Saudi Arabia. Arabs did not slaughter Egyptians who are still largely physical descendant of the pharaohs and their slaves, but their present-day culture has nothing to do with the pharaohs?€™ Egypt and its tradition. And it was not replacement: the Arabic migration was very small. They changed language and culture completely. You would have a serious trouble to point at more than a few modern nations who have not changed their languages within, say, last 2000 years (as a matter of fact, proto-English came to be spoken in what is now England around the same time the Arabic speakers first appeared in Egypt). Well, and in regard to the claim that Koreans ruled Japanese. Unless we want to join the company of Nulji the Great Khan (and his equally hysterical Japanese friends from those large black vans near Yasukuni Shrine, we have to admit: when we are talking about times that distant, we cannot talk about “Korea”, “China”, “Russia”, “Egypt”. Well, perhaps the Japanese imperial dynasty is related to some tribe which spoke a language related to (or ancestral to) what we would call a proto-Korean. So what? One has to be rather Nazoid to see it as a reason for national pride (bit, alas, such types are very common in this part of the world).
You know what I find really ironic? That these controvercial issues that are more or less irrelevant particularly for non-field experts would have such prolific amateur proxy champions. I miss the simple days when ideological cleavage could be summarized as between white and non-white. The problem, as the British noted, is when the cultured gentlemen begins to go native.
p.s. Does anyone have any credible links to all of these DNA studies being bandied about or are we simply relying on heresay as evidence.
yeah, shakee, my sources tell me that the koreans are the closest relatives of the japanese. still further, most of my contentions are supported by the above article. and please, how can anyone believe anything you say after you wrote that korea isn’t as central to japanese history as japan is to korean history. koreans founded yamato, populated it, and provided it with it’s royal lineage. don’t forget oho-wi, ok?
folks, part of the problem of reinforcing the truth here is that the japanese won’t play ball and allow examination of artifacts from the time period of korea’s enculturation of japan. we know why.
btw, shakee, why you so interested in korea?
****
lankov, i’m surprised you’re a published author seeing the language you used to write to me. i’d expect more from someone of your stature. you wrote what you wrote about the afghanis to salvage your pride as a russian. it’s no different than the rambo types telling us things like ‘the vietnam war was lost in the halls of congress not the jungles of vietnam.’ same dynamics. learn to write to me in the manner befitting the adult you allegedly are.
nulji
Christ nulji, is there one person who frequents the Marmot’s hole you haven’t gotten into an arguement with?
just in case:
apologies to lirelou. now i can understand why i felt a bit shocked reading what i read- it wasn’t lirelou, it was lankov. then, it all made sense.
We all came from the African continent originally, except for Koreans, who descended from a garlic-eating bear
Dr. Lankov summed it up nicely: “It?€™s necessary to distinguish between physical origin and origin of the language and culture.” Everyone is more of a mongrel than they might want to admit.
Nulji, I do not want to repeat myself. You have lied so many times, and these your lies and distortions which made me write in, say, slightly impolite manner (of which I feel a bit sorry now). I was outraged by your deliberate and dishonest misinterpretation of my postings. Once again, you repeated your lies. FYI I consider the Afghan war an imperialist adventure, and all such adventure have been crimes, albeit in varying degree. This is the last time I am saying this to you, since you have obviously seen this already, and since I have no reason to believe that you do not understand what is written in plain English. If you pretend not to understand, the reasons are quite clear – your dishonesty. Again, my language was impolite, and I future I should be in better control: provoking, lying and distorting are the true nature of Nazis from all nations, and it?€™s na??ve to expect even the modicum of honesty from an ultra-nationalist, be s/he Korean, Russian or Papua New Guinean.
“Tojo’s Granddaughter Says Japan War PM No Criminal”
“The political debate in Japan has shifted and the center of gravity has moved to the right.”
“She didn’t even find out her grandfather had been hanged until she was in the fifth grade.” (hmmmm…)
“Yuko upheld the family code of silence about her grandfather until the early 1990s, when the release of new records of the words of the late Emperor Hirohito that showed him expressing deep trust in Tojo made her feel times had changed.”
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-japan-war-tojo.html
lankov, i?€™m surprised you?€™re a published author seeing the language you used to write to me.
Nulji, you are a model case of not understanding ‘?°€??” ?§???´ ?³??™€??¼ ??¤??” ?§???´ ?³±??¤’
It has been only 1 day since I have joined this board, but already I can tell that “Nulji” reeks of “insecure kyopo”. You know…lots of yelling, screaming and chicken-chest beating boasting, a strong tint of anti-Japanese sentiment, but no rational sense or hard evidence.
“?€?japan has no problem admitting it?€™s korean origins.?€™
that?€™s a boldface lie.”
Uh, prove it. I would like for you to point out exactly where in any Japanese history book where Japan denies it has any influence from Korea. I am willing to bet my life on it.
“my sources tell me that the koreans are the closest relatives of the japanese”
Who exactly are your sources? If you say Korean textbooks or news articles, I will cite Casper the Friendly ghost and Charles Manson as my sources as Charles Manson has claimed that he actually was an emperor of the ancient orient on occasion.
Anyways, have fun talking with shaku and Iankov.
As always, Dr. Lankov’s postings are great not only in its educational value, but also for it’s social message. I think at this point, being rebuked by Nulji, is a point of honor.
I do think though, I feel more sympathetic to Dr. Diamond (maybe I’m biased?) Trying to solve the mystery of what happend around 2000 years ago, when there is very little written records, is a monumental task, and requires the joint scholarship of many many people in many different fields of study. I just can’t think of many qualified scholars who are professional linguist/geneticist/anthropologist/archaeologist/historian/etc etc. A serious scholar who wants to examine the “real” history between Korea and Japan would have to, at the very least, be the master of classical Chinese, modern korean modern japanese(to read the academic journals in those countries).
I thought Jared Diamond’s article was general enough to be acceptable and more importantly his social message in the last paragraph, was especially commendable. It makes perfect sense the there would be a lot of intercourse(figuratively and literally ha ha!) between these two groups of people (really one or several depending on perspective) in the past 2000 years following the general trend in human history.
My favorite part of Jared Diamond’s article is how he points out both Korean Japanese people tend to project modern day reality 5000 years ago, attributing any relics on present day boundry as being ‘Korean’ or ‘Japanese.’
I miss the simple days when ideological cleavage could be summarized as between white and non-white. The problem, as the British noted, is when the cultured gentlemen begins to go native.
I couldn’t agree more.
chongko, find the sources yourself. they’re out there. if you’re lazy, try reading the above article. and chongko, between your word and the word of a pulitzer prize winning scientist, there’s no contest.
jared diamond is a learned man who’s had several bestsellers on the nyt. most books deal with anthropology but i suppose we should dismiss him outright because he’s a physiologists. no…(nulji shakes head) no, it’s not easy to dismiss the man’s writng on yamato’s korean origins, this man got connections in the academic world, he’s consulted the experts and his own reasearch and reasoning. no win for you, chongko, and what arrogance you have to think you have the same credibility as diamond.
getting harder to wash away the korean, chongko.
Shaku, regarding your post #26, I wanted to say that when you write reasonably, you garner my respect, as you have done on that post. I hope you continue this trend.
Also, I’m not too sure if I feel confortable calling Anthropology a “pseudo-science” in regard to anything, because that’s like calling all social sciences in general to be pseudo-science. Economics comes to mind…
Thanks for that (#41), wangkon936. I had seen such results in academic papers before, but was too lazy to check right now.
Shakuhachi wrote:DNA testing tells us that the Korean people are closer genetically to Chinese than they are to Japanese.Shakuhachi, if you really read that from a study and it’s not your speculative view (or even wishful thinking), is it possible you were mis-remembering ethnic Koreans in China as Chinese in the study you say you saw (I would imagine the genetic relationship between “mainland” Koreans and ethnic Koreans in China to be stronger than between “mainland” Koreans and Japanese)?
It’s interesting that the genetic relationship between the two is brought up today by anti-Japanese Koreans. After all, it was this close genetic relationship (which even Japan acknowledges, Shakuhachi) that served as a justification for bringing Chos??n “back” into Japan.
Today some people who believe that Japan and Korea should be as close as, say, the U.S. and Canada (yes, there are such people), especially in light of the close “connection” between the two. But because of this connection being used as a justification for colonization in the past, it is a very, very sensitive issue and thus the proponents of stronger Korean-Japanese ties have to be very, very careful about bringing it up.
But at the opposite end of the Korea-Japan love-hate spectrum, the connection serves as a convenient in-your-face jab at Japan: without us you’d be nothing. Yes, I agree it’s immature and often counterproductive. And with people with a bit less hate and a bit more thought, in provides a convenient counter to perceptions that the Japanese look down on Koreans: How can you think you’re so superior when you and your culture largely came from us?
It seems like Marmont?€™s Hole has become a gathering place of a bunch of Korea haters…
I hope that one day someone will analyze the odd phenomenon whereby most of the foreign people who know Korea best end up with a pathological hatred.
I hope that one day someone will analyze the odd phenomenon whereby most of the foreign people who know Korea best end up with a pathological hatred.
No, I would not say so. Perhaps, the reason is that people who feel good or just normal do not need to tell about this to the entire world?
Lankov wrote:No, I would not say so. Perhaps, the reason is that people who feel good or just normal do not need to tell about this to the entire world? Sort of like pro-American sentiment.
Says Diamond:
Today, Japan and Korea are both economic powerhouses,
facing each other across the Korea Strait and
viewing each other through colored lenses of
false myths and past atrocities.
I’m going to Kyobo to buy me some Jared Diamond right now. Too good.
Hate or not,it doesn’t matter.Scientific and archaeological study is all.
And there is no sign of massive immigrants unearthed in Japan.
Think it scientifically wangkon936.
Which theory does that data prove?
That data says nothing about this issue.May be,its shows us that the Japanese is the roots of korean isn’t it?
And there is no sign of massive immigrants unearthed in Japan.Not that a right-wing government would want you to see, anyhow.May be,its shows us that the Japanese is the roots of korean isn?€™t it?That’s entirely possible. After all, that’s what the Kojiki supposedly says and was used as a justification for bringing Ch??sen back into the fold.
Personally, I think that regardless of which way the flow generally went (and even if the genetic flow was mostly Korea — Japan, there would have been some flow the other way, through trade and war) the two should be much closer than they are. What disappoints me about Roh is that he scrapped Kim Daejung’s efforts to put historical disagreements in the past. That makes it harder for South Korea and Japan (perhaps along with Mongolia, Taiwan, and a few other countries) to stand up against an encroaching People’s Republic of China.
Whew! You all have too much time – just kidding. This is my first comment to your excellent community. I have two comments at this time:
1) As an apologist for Koreans (what else can I be, being partly a Korean American) I think that Koreans love to point out how similar they are to the Japanese or even point out their superiority in certain quarters because a) of the history of Japanese colonization in the early 20th century, b) they were liberated by a third party (US) and never had the satisfaction of vanguishing their enemy (one wonders if they ever could have succeeded militarily), c) the Japanese according to their Sun Goddess myth, believe that they are so superior and unique compared to the rest of the human race, and d) the Japanese right wing (which is now the mainstream headed by the likes of Koizumi and Ishihara) continues to whitewash history. As for the Korean bear with garlic breath, I don’t think that myth holds the same power in Korea as the Kojiki myth holds to the Japanese right wing (again, today’s mainstream) who are seeking to revive the Emperor mythos (my main bone of contention currently).
2) From what I can gather so far, Jared Diamond is a biologist by training. He hinges his analyses on the ability of differing geographies to have differing outcomes for the people living there. This idea is compelling. So once he sees the superior agricultural civilization of 400 BC Korea vs. the hunter gatherer society of the Jomons, it’s an easy conclusion to make to propose that the surplus producing agricultural society would push out or eliminate the hunter gatherers. As in the American-Indian history where assimilation was minimal, pushing out or elimination would be more likely in such cirumstances. I think his genius is his ability to support this basic premise to the analyses of social transformation from a multi-disciplinary perspective. I think that is exciting, though in modern times of course you cannot be the expert on everything. But there is a place for integrators, especially since much of science is inaccessible to us mortals, I think.
Bye, until later.
korea shouldn’t be moving closer to china, korea should be moving closer to japan, and japan should be moving closer to korea. the koreans are ready for this. japan need only create the conditions.
did i sound hateful enough to you, chongko? did you read the above from wangkon? zettai zetsumei, my friend, zettai zetsumei.
nulji wrote:
korea shouldn?€™t be moving closer to china, korea should be moving closer to japan, and japan should be moving closer to korea. the koreans are ready for this. japan need only create the conditions.
It’s a two-way street, Nulji. Many Koreans are ready; so are many Japanese. But there are a lot of people in Korea who have such a stick up their backside about Japan that they would try tooth and nail to prevent that (and some key Uri people are among them). Probably same is true in Japan (including some LDP supporters).
wangkon936, regarding your post #41.
do you really think there is a place on this board for citing actual academic work??? If the quasi-/pseudo- intellectual level of discussion is to be maintained, it is essential that all “sources” and “studies” be spoken of only in the most ambiguous of terms and the actual citing of studies be strictly forbidden. Raising the level of discussion will do nothing other than to drive away the majority of the posters.
Korean rejects went to Japan and inhabited Japanese islands. That is why the Japanese are over-sexed, destructive, small-minded and love money.
Koreans, through Confucius teaching, have learned to control sexual urges and destructive feelings. Koreans also think about the big picture: how their actions will be viewed by other countries. Koreans always put people before money.
In general, Koreans are more ethical people than the Japanese.
If you think that I am wrong, then just look at what Koizumi is doing. If he were a Korean, he would have stopped something that other countries abhor.
Think globally. Snap out of your small-minded obsession, Japanese.
baduk wrote:Korean rejects went to Japan and inhabited Japanese islands. That is why the Japanese are over-sexed, destructive, small-minded and love money.Just like the Koreans they left behind, eh?Koreans, through Confucius teaching, have learned to control sexual urges and destructive feelings.Except when they don’t.Koreans also think about the big picture: how their actions will be viewed by other countries.Except when they don’t.Koreans always put people before money.Except when they don’t.In general, Koreans are more ethical people than the Japanese. Except when they aren’t.
Get over this, Baduk. You could point to a bunch of over-sexed, money-loving, small-minded, selfish people in Japan, but if you had the same critical eye, you’d find things are just as bad over here.
Baduk said
“Do I need to say more?”
No!!! PLEASE don’t say more.
Baduk
Your post, shows without a doubt, that there is at least one small minded Korean.
Baduk?€™s #53 shows what some Koreans (in Korea) think of Korean ex-pats (like Korean American). Is there any difference between Korean ex-pats and Korean rejects?
Stereotyping is for small-minded people…
You must admit Koizumi represents Japan. He says he must attend Shinto temple where they honor the WWII criminals.
Do I need to say more?
Do not say that it is only Koizumi and the rest of Japan are not like that. Koizumi knows what Japanese stands for – another conquest into the asian continent.
Just stay in your small islands. Don’t come out. You guys do not have much to share with the rest of the world. Other than your petty ambition to rule over other people, of course.
where’s your big mouth, chongko? you did a lot of shit talking but now you’re silent? please show us counter study to the one posted by wangkon. please provide source of study. i know you won’t mind showing us since you’re in possession of ‘hard evidence’.
you’re either some japanese guy who can’t stand the idea of korea in your blood or one of japan’s many western proxies who want to help those who fill them with the charisma they never had in the west. in any case, i’m waiting for your response to wangkon’s study. zettai zetsumei.
I am waiting for Gerry Bevers to show up with his pro-Japanese Dokto arguments. Is he still around?
Koizumi is pissing off a lot of people in Korea and China. Yet, he still wants to do it. Why? Does any Japanese have answer for this?
I think it has to do the same thing as firing teachers who did not stand up when Kimigayo was playing. Back to Tojo’s time, huh?
baduk
wow, i would really advise you to participate some live-talk show on mbc telling all those things you have posted. then you could even dream of being a next president of rok.
only if mbc will ever have a “live” program now.
“over-sexed, destructive, small-minded and love money.”
Hey baduk, sounds like you are describing Koreans…especially the “love money” part.
“Koreans, through Confucius teaching, have learned to control sexual urges and destructive feelings.”
Oh, man..I am showing this to some of the people in the office who are getting a laughing kick out of this one. Mind you that all of the people in the office are almost all non-Japanese foreigners. ACtually, two of them are Korean Americans…one of them who said that Korean ajeossis are the most disgusting thing to have ever come out of the planet since the black plague. Also, the girl who almost got raped by taxi drivers in Seoul on two different occasions really thinks your funny.
“Koreans also think about the big picture:”
Riiight. Especially when it comes to building bridges and buildings. No cutting corners there, right? Oops…sorry, I guess it doesnt matter when buildings and bridges collapse by themselves.
how their actions will be viewed by other countries.”
Apparently, they are not doing a very good job about it. Take a good look at any blog by a foreigner who lives or has lived in Korea…see how much they love Korea.
“Koreans always put people before money.”
This is the biggest laugh getter of them all. Just take a look at your government. Even Koreans agree that their country is full of corruption. Just read the papers.
You should take your routine to a comedy club…eveen your own Korean brethren would have a good laugh!
In general, Koreans are more ethical people than the Japanese.
Ok, you can always cite some out-of-the-norm incidences.
However, Koreans did not go over to China and did what you guys did. It is hard to disprove historical facts. Yet, the Japanese try to hide the facts.
Then, you guys are back to the same game again. Vowing to the WWII spirits and editing textbooks. What other civilized country fires teachers for not standing up when Kimigayo is playing?
You guys are back to the Hitler time.
You guys sound like an old married couple. Shaddup.
Korean ajeossis are the most disgusting thing to have ever come out of the planet since the black plague. Also, the girl who almost got raped by taxi drivers in Seoul on two different occasions really thinks your funny.
True. Korean ajosshis are really really disgusting. How do you say – “Beyond perverted”? Zavaan hognuud!Pervertedly perverted perverted perverts.
“Zavaan hognuud!”
Sounds like the Marmotess has retained the fire the Marmot once had and lost. Brava!
“Pervertedly perverted perverted perverts.”
God that’s funny.
Baduk, I hope you will one day realize the error of your ways.
As a Korean, I want to say, yes, I LOVE money. money money money. There is no other God than Mammon. Give me Money or give me death.
If you despise Mammon and wishes to divest of this perverse corrupt tool of the bourgois swine, please let me know, and I’ll setup a PayPal account and promptly help you fight against the Power. (Money Order, Check, and yes, Cash will also be accepted. Don’t be shy about sending me foreign currency. If your definition of Mammon is more liberal, please feel free to send me stocks, bonds, options, or precious metals.)
I am somewhat surprised that after reading the article and following the commentaries, people still have problem with the “exegesis” of Diamond’s article. I thought that after having read all this, people should realize that there is a big problem calling the inhabitants of a certain peninsula and islands, “koreans” or “japanese,” 2000 years ago. In fact, it’s even problematic to call them “proto-korean” or “proto-japanese.”
Could it be possible that scholars would use the terminology of their sponsors?!! GASP!! Say it ain’t so! What??!! Scholars get funded by politically motivated groups??! This is news to me! I am shocked and horrified, horrified and shocked.
The day I came to realize that I should question everything I learned about history, was when my HS friend became a middle school Global Studies teacher.
I would also like to add some more obvious points in response to:
“I hope that one day someone will analyze the odd phenomenon whereby most of the foreign people who know Korea best end up with a pathological hatred.”
This current generation of “english teacher” is a new developement. Most Koreans did not have the disposable income to hire a real life, living breathing, blue-eyed, blond haired, cheese-eatin’ waegookin. And by Waegookin, I mean Americans, because Korean perception at the time was that all waegookin was from United States, and all Americans were blue-eyed, blond haired, and ate cheese.
Yes, I remember the days when my family got excited about moving to a “nice” apartment with real funcitonal elevators and centralized heating. Yes, back in those days, many Korean people still died of carbon monoxide poisoning from yuntan(do you know what that is?) or lacked indoor plumming.
Back in those days(and by “back” i mean only 2 decades ago), the waegookin that came to Korea were Peacecorps types (cool hippy people) or missionaries (people who got along just swell with very conservative Korean Christians) or US. Servicemen. Of course, back in those days, the ultra-pro Americans lacked the grey hair and wrinkles and really thought anything from America was the best in the world–even sewage water.
Back then, the peacecorp, missionary, military types still encountered Korean racism/ethnocentrism/various-other-isms, and thought, “ahh, it’s a poor country and just recently modernized, I’ll give it some more leeway.”
Seriously. How many of people on this bored say, “Oooo, those Zimbabweans have so much biased.” Or “Oooo, those Singhalese, so closed minded!” Ah. But we all have our preconceived notions about the Arabs or in our case, the Koreans. What do Koreans and Arabs have in common? I mean, we’ve been always talking about the Arabs being messed up before too. So what has changed since then and now? Here’s a hint. The Arabs were always important.
My point is that constructive criticism is good and important. But I hope that readers of this blog is aware of certain human tendencies and realize that had Korea never developed economically, we may never even have this discussion.
Yes. In many respects, Korea is still a 3rd world country. It’s just that it’s economy went a bit ahead of it’s social-cultural-political mores.
You might be onto something, virtual wonderer, but I think a lot of it has to do with the current crop of English-speaking “foreigners” doing what many of them are doing and the type of Koreans they meet.
Although there are many exceptions, three of the most loathsome Korean archetypes are taxi drivers, hagwon owners/managers, and rich people who think they are more important than everyone else because they are rich (which can include landlords and the wealthy parents of kids seeking illegal after-school tutoring). And guess which type of Koreans the average English speaker in Korea will interact with most while in working in Korea? (A: these three types).
Sure, not all taxi drivers, hagwon owners/managers, and rich parents or landlords are horrible people. And there are others who have obnoxious views, hold racist thoughts, etc., (particularly the more outspoken students) but being in the hagwon industry often lays the groundwork for a miserable experience.
Another thing, too, is that if you look at the extremism is the norm, you’re going to think that Korea — or any country — is really screwed up. For example, out of nearly 50 million people, fewer than 1/10,000,000 chopped off their pinkies*, but in their minds, a lot of people were characterizing Korea as a country of finger-choppers. Sure, there was (is) a lot of emotionalism on that issue, and some people are downright irrational, but the scope and scale was exaggerated in the minds of many.
* There were almost certainly more accidental finger choppings during that time period than there were deliberate finger-choppings as protest.
Virtual, not sure what your point is, but one thing that’s always interesting/aggravating about Korea is how many aspects of the society are in flux here, to a greater degree than usually seen in the West. In the case of this particular thread, the comments about which race is superior–a really stupid discussion, by the way–arise from the perceived narrowing of the wealth gap between Korea and Japan, so that Koreans can now get into pissing matches about who is No. 1 in flat screen TVs or whatever. When people in Korea start to feel more confident about their place in the world, the “racism/ethnocentrism/various-other-isms” should diminish.
I must have been lucky, Kushibo, because I’ve always done well by taxi drivers in Korea, they’re generally good people and severely underpaid. A lot of them are unexperienced drivers and don’t know Seoul that well, but they haven’t been rude toward me. Hogwan owners I don’t have experience with, but I’ve heard they’re a scurvy bunch of pirates. And the rich, well, “They are different from you and me.” Any poor impression of Korea I get as a foreigner comes from the amateurish government, the idiot teacher’s union, and the biased media, but that’s true of anywhere.
Well, these aren’t so much my own experiences as things I was relating from many people I’ve talked with. I have always noticed a huge contrast in attitudes toward Korea between the people I know studying here and those who are working in the English pit-mines.
Money changes everything.
Taxi drivers have drastically improved since the bad old days, and I haven’t had a fight with one in years. Even those little white cards to send in to complain about taxi drivers have disappeared, and I wonder if there’s been some concerted government effort to improve the quality of service. The taxi drivers in Seoul are now vastly better than most other places in Asia, where you still usually have to haggle over fares, and where drivers will “forget” to turn on the meter, or threaten to dump you in the middle of a freeway if you don’t pay up.
Unfortunately, lots of other things are still in need of improvement. Korean shopkeepers are still as rude as ever and rarely say “thank you.” It’s like they’re offended that you come in their store, and interrupt their TV viewing to touch “their” things. Restaurants never seem to stock more than half the items on their menu and act surprised that you’d even expect them to.
I have often thought that some government effort to upgrade the quality of services in this country might do at least something to reduce the many negative perceptions of visitors to the country, whether they’re English teachers or business travlers. I get the feeling, however, that the majority of Korean people don’t even know that these negative perceptions exist (or think that if it’s not a problem to them, it’s not a problem). As the country has modernized its infrastructure and prospered it’s gotten less and less easy to give it the leeway you would to say Yemen or Bangladesh.
foreigner, you hit the, i think the saying goes, “hammer to the nail”, when you said, “When people in Korea start to feel more confident about their place in the world, the ?€œracism/ethnocentrism/various-other-isms?€? should diminish.”
I was just saying that Korea becomes a topic of conversation today, because Korea is more relevant to the lives of the average citizen in an industrialized country. English teachers don’t go to places like Kenya or Uzbekistan. And I don’t mean this in a pejorative fashion at all, but english teachers are not the same breed of people as peace corp volunteers, US army volunteer enlisted men, missionaries. The latter group of people tend to be more forgiving than the former, the former generally having less defined personal goals in coming to a different nation other than gaining new personal experience and income. (afterall, the latter group is motivated by outright philanthropy)
I don’t think Korea became any more screwed up than before, because Korea was REALLY screwed up before. It’s just that Korea is now screwed up in a new way that happens to be anti-american. For example, I’d imagine the general Korean attitude towards Japanese people probably improved since I was in Korea, and that just shows how bad it used to be.
And I’m just talking about a matter of perspective that’s all.
Why do foreigners become really angry at the way things are in Korea? Well, it used to be the case that only “koreaphiles” used to go to Korea. That is no longer the case. Furthermore, the modern waegookin have a higher standards for Korea than they would in other countries, since Korea is starting to be accepted as a developed country.
remember the World Cup Italian-Korean game referee controversy? I almost gagged when the Italian government official said that the game was rigged by the Koreans and that Korea was able to do this since Korea is a powerful country. That’s the first time I ever heard anyone saying Korea is a powerful country. Afterall, Italy is G8 and Korea fluctuates between 11th largest economy or lower rank.
But in fact, Korea is really not a developed country…
Ponder this another quaint fact. There used to be a time in Korea, when everything and anything American was seen as being approved by God himself. I mean, there was always some level of anti-american sentiments, but you talk to almost any Korean above 50 and they all have a generally positive view of Americans. Back in those days, South Korea sent more troops to help “big brother” America in Vietnam, a commitment that was far more profound than the current UK commitment in Iraq. Back in those days, there were not many english teachers and any hanchongryun kids talking smack were called communist and tortured. Back in those days, we really didn’t see the so-called, “foreginers who hate Korea when they really learned about Korea.” In fact, the few foreigners who cared about Korea probably supported Hanchongryun kids aspiration as a legitimate movement to foster real democracy.
You think Koreans were less anti-Japanese then? Purely out of my everyday life, my provincial data sampling, I gather that the “average” Korean is actually less anti-Japanese today than before. It’s just that Japanese people just really didn’t care about Korea then, and now we actually have people like Shakuhachi willing to learn Korean. That’s somewhat of an improvement as far as inter Korean-Japanese friendship is concerned…
The bottom line is the U.S. veterans who gave away their K rations are now dead and buried, the Korean generation who received the K rations are now politically irrelevant, and the new generation of Koreans grew up accepting fascism as a noble belief, and the new generation of Americans have the same level of expectation of Korea as they would for any citizen of a G8 country. Things might have been different if the English teachers came in the 70′s…
Very interesting observations, Virtual. Please don’t put me among the?€œforeginers who hate Korea when they really learned about Korea,?€?because I don’t find this place so horrible, and I understand where the anti- stuff comes from, even if a lot of it is based on misinformation and fueled by a minority with an agenda. If Koreans simply attended to the things that would raise their own living standards, like not littering for instance, and treated each other more civilly, especially in public situations, their lot in life would improve and foreigners here might stop comparing Korea unfavorably with other countries.
Thats some rare, lucid posting from you, virtual wonderer.
I think for many people, its not the Anti Americanism or the anti Japanism that annoys, but the way it manifests itself. The other thing is the seeming inability of Koreans to empathise with others (I mean people of other races – I dont know if Koreans are able to empathise with eachother, but I assume so because any insult against Korean honor is met with mob action).
Its true that the more exposed to Korea (real Koreans in Korean language, not the ‘English Language Bandits’ that deluded English teachers think are their friends), the more chance you have to feel disappointed with Koreans, and start to wonder, beyond shared humanity, what do we have in common?
Case in point – Back during the days of the accident involving the armored vehicle and the two schoolgirls, a Korean foreign student that I knew casually started to talk to me about it excitedly, trying to get me to be outraged against the ‘murder’ of the two schoolgirls. According to his story, the American soldiers ran down the girls deliberately. After chatting a while, I told him straight that I thought that it was an accident, and the evidence bears that out. He left saying that he still thought it was murder. We never spoke again. Its just not possible to disagree with a Korean about something to do with Korea, and remain friends.
On my blog, Koreans show an amazing ability to delude themselves about the world. One Korean wrote this.
“??¼?³¸??€ ??¨?§€ ??¤??œ ????†?????????? ??œ??‘????³? ??¶??€?²??????¤.”
Unbelievable, but many Koreans think exactly the same thing. For the record, I replied,
????§??¡œ ?·¸??‡?²Œ ????°?????³? ??????????¹Œ? ??¼?³¸??€ ??´??¼?????¼??? ??œ????? ??´??°??? ?²??ŒŒ??´ ??¹?????¼ ??? ??? ?????”??° ?™œ ?³??²?????§€ ?????”?§€ ????°???´ ?³¸ ?????´ ??†???????¹Œ? ??¼?³¸??€ ??‰?™” ?œ??§€??¼ ?²°???????³? ????œ¼????¹Œ??”. ??¼?³¸??€ ????????? ?¸°???????³? ?????¤?³? ?§???¸?????” ?????Œ??€ ??œ?°??????¸ ?¶??Œ???œ ???????³‘?????…?????¤.
??¸??°??· ?Œ€????¸ ??œ???????œ??” ?™œ ??¼?³¸??? ?´€??œ ?¤‘??½?????¸ ?´€?????? ?·¨?“???? ??? ??†????¹Œ??”?
As for English teachers, I hardly think that English teachers in Korea are paragons of anything at all. But Koreans just have to accept that by inviting foreign men to Korea to teach English, most of them will have sex with Korean women, and in almost all cases it is the Korean woman who is the initiator of the relationship.
By the way, Virtual Wonderder, I am a white guy that is able to speak Japanese, not a Japanese able to speak English ^^
Thats some rare, lucid posting from you, virtual wonderer.
Chewie’s just so passive aggressive, it cracks me up.
Virtual Wonderer (#78), I think you are right about some points, including that Korea is no longer given a free ride when it comes to transgressions. The racism, the corruption, the abuse of women, etc., etc., are no longer characteristics of a country struggling to survive, so they’re no longer excusable. Liking Korea no longer goes hand in hand with accepting such things.
But a lot of the anti-American sentiment the other direction is because many Koreans, in much the same way, are no longer willing to give the U.S. a free ride. They now stand up to what they perceive to be abuses by the U.S. military. They complain about not being treated fairly by U.S. immigration. Things that most everyone let slide before are no longer treated that way. People have decided that liking America (separate from liking Bush or the U.S. government) no longer goes hand in hand with accepting such things.
I wanted to expand on this theme, “The other thing is the seeming inability of Koreans to empathise with others.” People tend to empathise with other people whom they know intimately. Generally such people are our immediate family members, friends, neighbor, countrymen, etc. For example, it took a very long long time for the average white american to empathise with the average black american–in fact Civil Rights happened 100 years after the Civil War. I would go so far as to say that is true since many white americans didn’t really know that many black people on a personal basis. (I don’t think it’s ironic at all that a southerner, Lyndon Johnson, was the one who ushered in CR)
If you take a look at the geography of Korea, (also true for the Japanese) it’s such that it’s basically a bottle with the Duman/Apdong river as a cork. Meaning that multi-racial/multi-ethnic awareness is a very new development in Korea–especially after hundreds of years of Chosun isolationism.
Even though Korean people are aware of the “frog in a well” syndrome, it’s not so easy to change ingrained culture. To put simple things into perspective, when I was growing up, people didn’t wear protective gears while biking, skateboarding, roller-skating. It was stupid but helmets were deemed dorkish. I know tons of Korean people who thinks that homosexuality is a Western invention, because they have never seen open homosexuals before. How do you convince Korean people to wear this new “helmet” of tolerance towards gays?
If you ask me why Korea is corrupt or have such narrow minded people, I tell you that most poor nations are like this. The fact that Korea is all the sudden rich, is actually an anomaly in human history. Actually, by the same token, Japan is also an anomaly but they had a 50 years headstart.
This doesn’t justify any a-holes for doing a-holish behaviors, but it does put things into perspective.
The power of suggestion often takes a long time.
Let me give you an additional anecdote. I was getting a haircut the other day by my local Korean barber. (yes you caucasion people don’t know how to cut asian hair, and i’m sure the same is true reverse) I was talking to him about the finance industry and he mentioned oft-handedly that his friend’s daughter is 40 and is single. She is a very rich investment banker and refuses to marry men, so as he claims, who doesn’t make as much money as her. In short he said, “She looks down on men.” I could have said, “you mysoginistic chauvinist swine,” to the utter glee of the female readers on internet. But tell me, what good would that do? Seriously? Did he come up with the idea that men should lord over women all by himself? And if I should castigate him would he say, “Ahh, VW, I see the error of my ways, you are so wise, benevolent, and awsome, and I, but a fool.” So my response was, in a very typical Korean deferential speech, “many women don’t marry nowadays, it’s normal. she might not be a bad person.” (translation is a bit off) You might be a Bushian and say that I compromised my ethic in a Clitonian fashion. But I think I at least offered an alternative view point, and if offered often enough by many sympathetic voices, he may have a changed view of the world.
To offer some points of hope, I freely admit that I was also a Korean fascist. Many thanx goes out to the truly patient, gracious, and wise human beings in real life and in cyber space for doing what they do.
Wuah!! I meant Clintonian, NOT clitonian. No pun intended.
I am a fan of Clinton and that particular part of the female anotomy. I wish we had an “edit” function…
in almost all cases, it is the korean woman who initiates the relationship…i’m a white guy.’ virtual turd
really? can you give me statistics? if you have a thing for asian chicks and you move to asia, then, is it not you who initiates the realtionship? you’re really stupid, virtual intelligence.
Nulji, I find you to be a most amusing troll which is why I enjoy reading your wacked out post. But I think you should consider reading who wrote what comments, because you are starting to confuse me with Shaku. Personally, I find that insulting!
Also, instead of the plain old vanilla grade school insults, you might want to employ more witty humor, mixing up irony and sarcasm with the occasional allusion to Marmot blogger’s inside jokes.
Otherwise, you are rehashing old materials and you might as well just control C and control V your responses. I told this to Gorea, and I’ll tell you as well. I believe in you.
yeah, that is an insult, isn’t it, virtual? shakee is truely in a catogory all his own. of course, i worte the wrong name. no insult intended.
as for you beleiving in me, i think you should spend more time believing in yourself. you have a good day.
?ª…?´‘??œ???
Nulji, got any sisters?
Here is another study genetically linking Koreans and Japanese. Some of the Korea haters here might discount it because it was a study commissioned by a Korean organization. However, the results will be published in Genomics, an international genetics journal.
“Study: Korean, Japanese DNA similar”
August 04, 2005 ?…¡ The Korean Center for Disease Control and Prevention announced yesterday that Korean people are genetically closer to Japanese people than to Chinese people. The study found that Koreans’ DNA is closer to that of Japanese people than that of Chinese. Koreans are genetically closer to Chinese than to Caucasians, and to Caucasians than to Africans, according to the center. The DNA study, which was led by Jo In-ho, a senior researcher at the center, was based on the gene sequences of 43 South Korean women whose families have lived on the Korean peninsula for over three generations. Their gene sequences were averaged and compared to those of other nationalities. The comparison data was provided by TSC, an American research team that collects genetic information and carries out large-scale DNA analyses. Mr. Jo said such DNA research would define the future direction of medical research on Korean genetic disorders. “These findings will lay the foundation for a deeper understanding of genetic disorders, and point us in the right direction for potential cures,” he said. Mr. Jo also said that due to genetic differences with its Northeast Asian neighbors, future research on Korean genetic disorders should focus on “the unique aspects of Korean DNA.” However, should joint genetic research be carried out with foreign research teams, Mr. Jo said Korean researchers should work more closely with Japanese researchers than with those from China.
The results of the study will be published on the August edition of Genomics, an international journal on genetics. “
KOREAN ROOTS OF THE JAPANESE PEOPLE
Marmot’s Hole has a link to an old article by Jared Diamond (if you haven’t read “Guns, Germs and Steel,” try to when you have time. great book and winner of the Pulitzer) which analyzes various theories on the origins of the Japanese. Informative …
Diamonds prove good Investment
Diamond prices have increased 30% over the last five years, and predicted to increase an additional 10-20% by the end of 2005, investment consultants are sure of diamonds as a lucrative and safe investment, with a better guaranteed return than gold.
So, Japan’s annexation of Korea was only a return to the fatherland by Koreans. Reunification was achieved.
So much interesting stuff to read here from days gone by.
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