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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Linguistic Violence&#8217; &#38; Internet Real Names</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Thu,  4 Dec 2008 04:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19725</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2005 07:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19725</guid>
		<description>To what site? Did they have a customer service number to call and what did they say?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To what site? Did they have a customer service number to call and what did they say?</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19724</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19724</guid>
		<description>So now it goes from not being able to engage in financial business online to not even being able to have a voice online.  Defend away, my man. I use my foreign ID number to conduct business on-line where I need to. It's not instantaneous, which is a pain in the hind quarters, and I agree that should not be the case. I absolutely agree that should not be the case. That is indefensible. 

But there is a canyon of difference between having to send a fax or .jpg of your ID to the website in question and not being able to get on at all. I use tourexpress.com to buy my plane tickets, I use KBstar to do on-line banking, and a few other things, all with my foreign resident ID number. 

I don't think it's easy and I think that system needs to be fixed. I know from past discussions you think this problem is insolveable because no Korean wants to solve it, but I think you're exaggerating the problem, too, especially if you think that this desire to crack down on "cyber terrorism" is really an attempt to keep foreigners off the Korean sites. 

To me, this discussion is like when certain incredulous foreigners told me foreign nationals can't own an apartment in my own name because Korea is a bunch of racists. Paraphrase of actual conversation:

SOMEONE: 
Foreigners can't own property because Korea is a racist country.

ME: 
I'm a foreign citizen, but I own my own apartment. 

SOMEONE: 
Maybe yours is a special case.

ME: 
No, any foreign citizen who legally resides in Korea can do this.

SOMEONE: 
But it's not in your name.

ME: 
Yes, it is. The apartment is in my name.

SOMEONE: 
Yeah, but it's also in your wife's name, too. Without her name on it, you couldn't get an apartment.

ME:
Um, I'm not married.

SOMEONE: 
Then it's in a relative's name.

ME:
No, it's in my name and my name only. I'll show you the deed. 

SOMEONE: 
You're making this up. Koreans don't let foreigners own property. 

It has also been suggested to me that I bribed someone, someone made a clerical error, and I have been unwittingly cheated and don't know it yet.

Okay, I know that home ownership is not the same as Internet participation, but there's a lot of hype out there and the hype needs to be separated from the reality in order to fix this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now it goes from not being able to engage in financial business online to not even being able to have a voice online.  Defend away, my man. I use my foreign ID number to conduct business on-line where I need to. It&#8217;s not instantaneous, which is a pain in the hind quarters, and I agree that should not be the case. I absolutely agree that should not be the case. That is indefensible. </p>
<p>But there is a canyon of difference between having to send a fax or .jpg of your ID to the website in question and not being able to get on at all. I use tourexpress.com to buy my plane tickets, I use KBstar to do on-line banking, and a few other things, all with my foreign resident ID number. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s easy and I think that system needs to be fixed. I know from past discussions you think this problem is insolveable because no Korean wants to solve it, but I think you&#8217;re exaggerating the problem, too, especially if you think that this desire to crack down on &#8220;cyber terrorism&#8221; is really an attempt to keep foreigners off the Korean sites. </p>
<p>To me, this discussion is like when certain incredulous foreigners told me foreign nationals can&#8217;t own an apartment in my own name because Korea is a bunch of racists. Paraphrase of actual conversation:</p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
Foreigners can&#8217;t own property because Korea is a racist country.</p>
<p>ME:<br />
I&#8217;m a foreign citizen, but I own my own apartment. </p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
Maybe yours is a special case.</p>
<p>ME:<br />
No, any foreign citizen who legally resides in Korea can do this.</p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
But it&#8217;s not in your name.</p>
<p>ME:<br />
Yes, it is. The apartment is in my name.</p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
Yeah, but it&#8217;s also in your wife&#8217;s name, too. Without her name on it, you couldn&#8217;t get an apartment.</p>
<p>ME:<br />
Um, I&#8217;m not married.</p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
Then it&#8217;s in a relative&#8217;s name.</p>
<p>ME:<br />
No, it&#8217;s in my name and my name only. I&#8217;ll show you the deed. </p>
<p>SOMEONE:<br />
You&#8217;re making this up. Koreans don&#8217;t let foreigners own property. </p>
<p>It has also been suggested to me that I bribed someone, someone made a clerical error, and I have been unwittingly cheated and don&#8217;t know it yet.</p>
<p>Okay, I know that home ownership is not the same as Internet participation, but there&#8217;s a lot of hype out there and the hype needs to be separated from the reality in order to fix this.</p>
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		<title>By: dogbert</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19723</link>
		<dc:creator>dogbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19723</guid>
		<description>Kushibo, let's not be naive.  One of the bases of the "problem" of foreigners not being readily able to transact business online in Korea (which proudly boasts of being the "most wired country in the world") is the fact that there is no electronically verifiable "real name system" for foreigners.  This will remain true even if and after the proposed real name requirement for posting Internet commentary on Korean websites is mandated.  So now it goes from not being able to engage in financial business online to not even being able to have a voice online.  Defend away, my man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kushibo, let&#8217;s not be naive.  One of the bases of the &#8220;problem&#8221; of foreigners not being readily able to transact business online in Korea (which proudly boasts of being the &#8220;most wired country in the world&#8221;) is the fact that there is no electronically verifiable &#8220;real name system&#8221; for foreigners.  This will remain true even if and after the proposed real name requirement for posting Internet commentary on Korean websites is mandated.  So now it goes from not being able to engage in financial business online to not even being able to have a voice online.  Defend away, my man.</p>
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		<title>By: R.elgin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19722</link>
		<dc:creator>R.elgin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19722</guid>
		<description>I wonder if that means Kornet employee spammers (e-z biz Donbu Quick Team) will be signing their spam with their real names now . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if that means Kornet employee spammers (e-z biz Donbu Quick Team) will be signing their spam with their real names now . . .</p>
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		<title>By: bulgasari</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19721</link>
		<dc:creator>bulgasari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19721</guid>
		<description>There was an article in the Korea Times called 'Foreigners Excluded From Korean Sites' which dealt with the lack of access for Korean sites by foreigners. I don't think this has anything to do with foreigners accessing sites at all -it's a heat-of-the-moment reaction to the 'cyber terror' phenomenom that the press has blown out of proportion in the last few weeks.

Btw, 'As is to be expected, the Korean press Is Not Amused.' Huh?  What (English-language) sites have you been reading?  I just blogged on this topic last night - every single paper supports the 'Real Name System' except the Hankyoreh. The Chosun, Times, Herald, and Joongang all support the measure.  They've all been referring to the Yahoo Korea poll where '80% of netizens' support the measure, which sounds oh-so-convincing until you read in this article that the Yahoo polled only 1,631 people, meaning the opinion of 1,300 people supporting the measure is a 'majority' of the 30 million or so Korean internet users out there. The Naver poll of 7,909 people found 65% support.  I wonder how much support there would have been for this measure before the deluge of 'cyber terror' articles.

I don't mean to dismiss the hostile actions of some netizens that have been highlighted in the past few weeks - something should be done to discourage this behavior. I'm not sure if more regulation is the answer, but considering the Korean government's actions in the past (routinely shutting down websites or it's far-reaching blockade against the Kim Sun-il video last summer) and the many ways Korean netizens have already given up their privacy (needing to use their resident numbers to register with many sites), I would tend to think that many people in Korea wouldn't see a 'Real name system' as an outrageous measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was an article in the Korea Times called &#8216;Foreigners Excluded From Korean Sites&#8217; which dealt with the lack of access for Korean sites by foreigners. I don&#8217;t think this has anything to do with foreigners accessing sites at all -it&#8217;s a heat-of-the-moment reaction to the &#8216;cyber terror&#8217; phenomenom that the press has blown out of proportion in the last few weeks.</p>
<p>Btw, &#8216;As is to be expected, the Korean press Is Not Amused.&#8217; Huh?  What (English-language) sites have you been reading?  I just blogged on this topic last night - every single paper supports the &#8216;Real Name System&#8217; except the Hankyoreh. The Chosun, Times, Herald, and Joongang all support the measure.  They&#8217;ve all been referring to the Yahoo Korea poll where &#8216;80% of netizens&#8217; support the measure, which sounds oh-so-convincing until you read in this article that the Yahoo polled only 1,631 people, meaning the opinion of 1,300 people supporting the measure is a &#8216;majority&#8217; of the 30 million or so Korean internet users out there. The Naver poll of 7,909 people found 65% support.  I wonder how much support there would have been for this measure before the deluge of &#8216;cyber terror&#8217; articles.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to dismiss the hostile actions of some netizens that have been highlighted in the past few weeks - something should be done to discourage this behavior. I&#8217;m not sure if more regulation is the answer, but considering the Korean government&#8217;s actions in the past (routinely shutting down websites or it&#8217;s far-reaching blockade against the Kim Sun-il video last summer) and the many ways Korean netizens have already given up their privacy (needing to use their resident numbers to register with many sites), I would tend to think that many people in Korea wouldn&#8217;t see a &#8216;Real name system&#8217; as an outrageous measure.</p>
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		<title>By: Grendel</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19720</link>
		<dc:creator>Grendel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19720</guid>
		<description>Good call. Too many paranoid cowards out there taking advantage of anonymity to spread hate.
Isn't free speech a basic right in the US? Since when is anonymity sacrified - there's lots of reasons to stay anonymous (),  less in countries with a healthy judicial system and legislation, but crucial in many other countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call. Too many paranoid cowards out there taking advantage of anonymity to spread hate.<br />
Isn&#8217;t free speech a basic right in the US? Since when is anonymity sacrified - there&#8217;s lots of reasons to stay anonymous (),  less in countries with a healthy judicial system and legislation, but crucial in many other countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19719</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19719</guid>
		<description>(I'm guessing that there are probably a few sites that don't even have an off-line system set up for people without working ID numbers to get on-line.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I&#8217;m guessing that there are probably a few sites that don&#8217;t even have an off-line system set up for people without working ID numbers to get on-line.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kushibo</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19718</link>
		<dc:creator>Kushibo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19718</guid>
		<description>Dogbert, I agree that there is no easy, instantaneous system for foreign residents to get on-line (but that doesn't mean they are actually prevented from using those sites, just that it involves more work to get on), and this kind of law will make it harder for many foreigners to get onto certain sites.

But this is a privacy issue affecting everyone in Korea, foreigners or not, so how do you jump to this being a conspiracy to blocks foreigners' access "at all costs"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dogbert, I agree that there is no easy, instantaneous system for foreign residents to get on-line (but that doesn&#8217;t mean they are actually prevented from using those sites, just that it involves more work to get on), and this kind of law will make it harder for many foreigners to get onto certain sites.</p>
<p>But this is a privacy issue affecting everyone in Korea, foreigners or not, so how do you jump to this being a conspiracy to blocks foreigners&#8217; access &#8220;at all costs&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: dogbert</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19717</link>
		<dc:creator>dogbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19717</guid>
		<description>Too many non-Koreans trying to use the Korean Internet!  Must block them at all costs!  Leave it to one of the world's most insular and xenophobic peoples to simultaneously brag about having the highest level of broadband penetration while actively trying to segregate what should be a worldwide accessible public resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too many non-Koreans trying to use the Korean Internet!  Must block them at all costs!  Leave it to one of the world&#8217;s most insular and xenophobic peoples to simultaneously brag about having the highest level of broadband penetration while actively trying to segregate what should be a worldwide accessible public resources.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/07/07/linguistic-violence-internet-real-names/#comment-19716</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1776#comment-19716</guid>
		<description>Good call.  Too many paranoid cowards out there taking advantage of anonymity to spread hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good call.  Too many paranoid cowards out there taking advantage of anonymity to spread hate.</p>
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