Joshua of One Free Korea posted some great excerpts from American Enterprise’s North Korea issue.
Also well worth reading is his post on Chris Nelson’s recently leaked special report to the South Korean embassy in Washington on U.S. Korea policy (WaPo report here).
38 Comments
OK, The American Enterprise post is updated with the pieces by Amb. Lilley and Nicholas Eberstadt. Thanks for the links.
Many of the excerpts quoted represent a superficial and/or selective reading of the situation here in Korea, particularly in regards to the widely misconstrued “anti-Americanism.” As was suggested, this is a mere rehash of the some in the administration’s thinking.
As Joshua seems to suggest, its real value is in scaring the bejeezus out of people in South Korea, but the very point that is clear is that those who are scared are already adamant believers in the ROK-US alliance.
God help us if hawkish neocons in Washington base their decisions on a confused and torn administration in Seoul of immense unpopularity, making moves that will adversely affect everyone’s interests for decades to come.
The subtitle of the AEI magazine is “averting a nightmare in North Korea.” If things go the way some of those contributors suggest, perhaps a future issue can be “facilitating a nightmare in Northeast Asia.”
The VDH article echoes a recurring theme of his. Extract from his article in the current online National Review:
http://www.nationalreview.com/.....011051.asp
So how does the United States navigate nimbly between its weariness with the thankless role of a superpower and the dangers of a nostalgic isolationism? We need to find a sort of Zen-like philosophical balance that brings both some maturity to our pampered critics and psychic relief to ourselves, without endangering our own security or abandoning our true allies ?€” while in the middle of a war and a polarized electorate here at home….
Korea is a perfect opportunity for our new Zen-like approach. With an army of over 600,000 and an economy 25 times larger than the North?€™s, why should the South Koreans be pushed to do what they say only we wish? Much of the population already believes the United States, not North Korea, is the real problem.
Our concerns are more with Taiwan and Japan. The South Koreans should be allowed to go forward with their vaunted reunification or closer ties with a benevolent China. We can nod yes to every Sunshine proposal and then very quietly start a sort of relay system: 5,000 troops down to Pusan, then 5,000 troops home, repeated on a bi-monthly basis until they are all off the DMZ ?€” or South Korea publicly calls for renewed American ties.
There is no historical precedent for our present Orwellian situation of stationing troops 7,000 miles away, between two belligerents, when our own ally insists that we are as much a problem as the purported enemy.
We once learned from the Philippines that the sky did not fall on us or it when we said goodbye; the only unforeseen consequence was the tens of thousands of Filipinos who wished to leave along with us…
Rather than worry about the supposed new unpopularity of the United States from Canada to France, or constantly badger supposed allies to at least be neutrals, we should very gently strengthen our alliances with nations that are self-confident and without neuroses of various sorts. That would mean to accept that an ankle-biting Belgium, Canada, Egypt, France, Germany, Mexico, or Turkey has a perfect right as a neutral to distrust the United States and craft its own independent path…
Joshua, I’ll write more on my blog or here later, but I’m not saying anti-Americanism in Korea is a myth, but that anti-American sentiment in Korea is largely misconstrued (thanks largely to the media-manipulating far-left in Korea, but also thanks to the not particularly nuanced way the left-leaning and sensation-seeking press in the US looks at Korea).
Kushibo,
While I agree that anti-Americanism in South Korea is government-driven and overstated by the foreign press, I am not sure if not doing anything and waiting for the recapture of the Blue House by the GNP in 2007 is the best policy for the U.S. (which you seem to imply from our previous conversations). If I have misread you, then what would you suggest the Bush administration do in the alternative?
I guess here is the locus of our disagreement (if we indeed do disagree.) While I agree that Roh is extremely unpopular and that there are more “conservative” votes in the Korean electorate, I am just not sure whether all that will necessarily translate into a GNP victory in 2007. Given the history of recent Korean elections, I think the likelihood is that the GNP cannot unite behind a single candidate. Lee Myung-Bak has already floated the idea of running a third party candidacy; I wouldn’t be surprised if Park Gun-Hye runs her own campaign either if she’s not the GNP candidate, given that such a course would only be pretty much a recidivist behavior. And who knows whether someone unexpected like Goh Kun could not pilfer more establishment votes?
So I do think the best policy that the Bush administration can pursue is to try to influence South Korean political debate by 2007 in a manner that the fundamental issue will be a forthright discussion of Seoul’s security vis-a-vis NK and the U.S. And perhaps doing things that scare the South Koreans into confronting this issue–for instance, announcing that the majority of the U.S. troops will leave by a certain date–is not a bad idea.
While I am a huge fan of Victor Davis Hanson as a classicist (my own academic background is also in classical political theory) and an op-ed writer for both the NR and the Chicago Tribune, his piece on Korea is an example par excellence of people over-reaching beyond their realm of expertise.
WJC, I’m not advocating not doing anything. For now, the Uri folks are in charge, so they have to be worked with. Dismissing them as pro-North or anti-American without recognizing why they see their path as the least worst option is counterproductive for everyone. There is a middle ground that allows for some elements of Sunshine to co-exist with, even enhance, a focused hard-line approach.
I also don’t think the situation is doomed if a liberal or progressive comes to power. The problem with Roh is not that he is leftist, but that he is a dangerous combination of idealism and ignorance. A more seasoned and knowledgeable liberal might recognize how his own off-the-cuff rhetoric or half-baked plans can tank relations with the countries that South Korea needs most to be friends with.
Nevertheless, I do hope that a very pragmatic conservative (very on the pragmatic part, that is) ends up in the Blue House.
More on this later. But for now, why is it so horribly wrong for South Korea to try engagement with North Korea when the United States tries virtually the same thing with two of the four remaining major communist countries? Including the one that is in cahoots with North Korea, without whom the tight-fisted control, the famine, the nuclear program, the rounding up of refugees, etc., could not go on?
If people are going to bash Korea for supposedly propping up North Korea, they need to look long and hard at what they’re doing with China, the real propper-uppers.
I wrote:I also don?€™t think the situation is doomed if a liberal or progressive comes to power.I meant to say that I don’t think the situation is doomed if a liberal or progressive is elected in 2007.
“But for now, why is it so horribly wrong for South Korea to try engagement with North Korea when the United States tries virtually the same thing with two of the four remaining major communist countries?”
I presume you mean Vietnam, PRC, DPRK, Cuba? The first two the US “engages” with, the latter two not?
US engagement with PRC well preceded the DPRK nuclear program and was the result of the delicate consensus reached between the two powers over Taiwan (admittedly, this consensus is slowly degrading, with results yet to be seen, but so far the essential bargain has not been broken).
The first two countries also don’t have the pattern of active terror, proliferation (both nuclear and conventional) and subversion with their neighbors, in the way that DPRK and Cuba do (Ok, the Chinese do proliferate but they are a lot more subtle).
The DPRK nukes, coupled with their major convential forces in attack positions in artillery range of US forces, makes all the difference. During the Cold War the two antagonists didn’t allow unstable (or potentially unstable) local allies to control/acquire nukes; the PRC has broken with this precedent for the first time, which is why this situation is so dangerous. Yes, I know PRC says they aren’t the key influence over DPRK actions; even if you believe that, if it were true then that makes the situation even more dangerous.
The Chinese have nukes, but they aren’t conducting armed raids into Taiwan, kidnapping nationals from Japanese soil for intelligence purposes, and having small patrol vessels shoot it out with those of other nations.
And I too can disagree with individual aspects of VDH’s argument without quarreling with his overall thesis. For Pete’s sake, with such enormous firepower poised in immediate proximity to them, the ROK populace elects a government that tries to play both sides?
Every instinct I have screams “get out now” before there is a miscalculation; ROK can take its own risks, US can support from offshore like we do for Taiwan. If ROK really believes in “sunshine” then such offshore support is a more than adequate insurance policy; if the troops are gone it’ll make for a lot more clearheaded thinking on the part of ROK political leaders (and potential political leaders).
Regardless of who is elected in ROK in 2007 (and in US in 2008) there’s no gainsaying that the national interests of the two countries are drawing apart rapidly, without regard to which administration is in power in either country.
Every instinct I have screams ?€œget out now?€? before there is a miscalculationGetting off the peninsula would be the miscalculation.
As for the election of Roh, first off, only about 40% of the people voted for him. Second, he had said before then that he wanted the US presence to continue.
Again, who is really playing both sides? The Japanese buy 1/7 of North Korea’s exports, as Pyongyang’s #3 trading partner, but people don’t accuse them of propping up North Korea.
Kushibo
You point out the fact that Japan does a lot of business with N Korea and no one accuses them of propping up the regime.
I think there is a difference between conducting regular business transactions and the government subsidized money loosing transactions between the two Koreas. My knowledge of the business world is limited, but it seems S Korea is just using business transactions to funnel money north.
If my thinking is a bit off here hopefully someone will correct me.
Also, you provided the best summary of Roh I’ve readThe problem with Roh is not that he is leftist, but that he is a dangerous combination of idealism and ignorance. A more seasoned and knowledgeable liberal might recognize how his own off-the-cuff rhetoric or half-baked plans can tank relations with the countries that South Korea needs most to be friends with.
Kushibo,
Again, who is really playing both sides? The Japanese buy 1/7 of North Korea?€™s exports, as Pyongyang?€™s #3 trading partner, but people don?€™t accuse them of propping up North Korea.
i am sure you know who are those “trading partners” with the north korea in japan. mostly koreans with northern ancestries, choosen soren affiliates, living in japan without japanese passports. i dont think an ordinary japanese company can do business with the north.
Kushibo
i would like to have your opinion about the uri-party having alliance with the democratic-labor party recently, and how it would affect future policy of rho administration.
Mae,
Could I ask you to provide some description/pointers as to how things are for ethnic Korean residing in Japan? I’d very much like to learn more. Having been brought up in S. Korea, I realize I’m quite ignorant of situation of Koreans in Japan (as well as in North Korea).
I think Kushibo?€™s assessment of Roh is spot on. I also agree with WJC that waiting for a significantly better administration to be elected in 2007 can?€™t be the best solution. There were a lot of people around the world that hoped that would happen in the US elections of 2004 and they now find themselves waiting for 2008 taking solace in the fact that at least W cannot become president again. I am not reactionary enough to advocate killing the alliance just because Roh is an idiot but I do question the utility of the 37,000 US troops currently stationed here when it would it appear that their ability to be effective is severely limited by the current administration. The argument against withdrawal is that their presence allows the US to participate in trying to help shape the future of the region on a different level than the EU for example and I think it is safe to say that there would be much to loose if the alliance were dissolved and the troops withdrawn. I think that Anti-Americanism is real-particularly against what most Koreans feel is overly preferential treatment of American servicemen and what they view as an unfair SOFA agreement. The local politicians and the media have done little to clarify what it is, why it is needed and why it does offer US soldiers stationed here certain protections and rights not afforded to the average foreigner. I think that aside from this example, there really is not a lot of anti-foreigner or anti-American sentiment here. I would like to see the US and Korea come to an agreement on how they will work together to bring about peaceful reunification of the Korean peninsula but I do not think that is necessarily the goal of either administration. W would be happy if KJI just disappeared. Roh, it seems is far more interested in propping up NK rather than working towards reunification.
It’s not appropriate to compare the “rights” of foreigners who voluntarily choose to live in a country to those of soldiers who are sent there pretty much involuntarily, and who are there to protect the rights of everyone else. The idea behind the SOFA is that if your country sends you somewhere against your will, it should at least guarantee you a few minimum procedural protections in the courts of the host country that invited you. Those protections still fall wildly short of what a criminal accused would get in the United States. The same argument doesn’t apply to an English teacher who makes a decision to assess and confront the legal risks of living abroad.
I’ve reviewed probably hundreds of Korean investigation packets and trial results for American soldiers, and the plain fact is that American parents would be steering their kids away from the Army in even greater droves (as much as I’d regret that) if they knew what went on there. First, the lawyers the USFK hires are all on contract for a flat rate. Almost to a man, they’re uncaring, barely functional in English, and minimally effective. They see their main function as extracting guilty pleas from their clients and collecting their bill. By the day of trial, the client may have met his lawyer twice, if he’s exceptionally lucky. Lawyer and client are on opposite sides of the courtroom and can’t confer during the trial. The USFK won’t even provide the lawyer until the soldier is indicted, which is usually too late to work out a settlement. Translation quality is abyssimal. Two soldiers who acted as trial observers–one a First Sergeant and one a full colonel (the Inspector General of the Eighth Army, in fact) both testified under oath that they saw judges sleeping through trials. Two separate incidents, mind you. Worst of all is the police work, which consists of shoddy three-line statements that often tend to say just what the police want them to say, and the fact that the courts rely on them. No right to confront your accuser. No trial by jury. Little right of cross examination. Built-in penalites for pleading not guilty. No exclusionary rule for coerced confessions. No right to be told you can remain silent and ask for a lawyer. Etcetera.
The real scandal isn’t the SOFA. The scandal is that the Korean legal system is a decrepit wreck of a Japanese colonial leftover that undoubtedly sends innocent Koreans to prison every day.
Joshua-you are preaching to the choir. The points you make are exactly what I was getting at. It is a shame that (I believe) the average Korean does not understand the function or purpose of the SOFA and is therefore wide open to manipulative and heavily biased reporting on the part of the Korean media leading them in the end to become angry about something they do not, in truth, fully understand. Kushibo and others might disagree with me but that is at least what I suspect to be the case. Another possibility may be that because the Koreans are accustomed to the dysfunctional system that they have, they may not be so keen to understand why we would consider the American system superior.
Many of the excerpts quoted represent a superficial and/or selective reading of the situation here in Korea, particularly in regards to the widely misconstrued ?€œanti-Americanism.?€?
So the Anti Americanism is ‘misconstrued’, is it? I would like to hear your idea about how those stupid yanks misconstrued Korean friendship for Anti Americanism. Must be because all the soldiers come from ‘low class families’, and the slums, heh Kushibo?
God help us if hawkish neocons in Washington base their decisions on a confused and torn administration in Seoul of immense unpopularity, making moves that will adversely affect everyone?€™s interests for decades to come.
Yeah, God forbid the Jewish conservatives in the pentagon should decide (correctly) that Korea is no friend of the US. The Roh administration is unpopular, but the only time when it is popular is when it takes anti American or anti Japanese stances. The Korean public is basically anti American - anyone that actually knows Koreans knows this.
Joshua, I?€™ll write more on my blog or here later, but I?€™m not saying anti-Americanism in Korea is a myth, but that anti-American sentiment in Korea is largely misconstrued (thanks largely to the media-manipulating far-left in Korea, but also thanks to the not particularly nuanced way the left-leaning and sensation-seeking press in the US looks at Korea).
If anything, South Korean anti Americanism is under reported overseas.
Again, who is really playing both sides? The Japanese buy 1/7 of North Korea?€™s exports, as Pyongyang?€™s #3 trading partner, but people don?€™t accuse them of propping up North Korea.
Now you break out the conspiracy theories? Yeah, like the Japanese really want to support NK so they can point missiles at Japan. As Mae said, there is a large Korean community in Japan with North Korean citizenship that support and trade with North Korea. Rather than criticising Japan, you should be in awe of their tolerance of this dangerous subversive element.
James, I do tend to agree with you (#18) about many Koreans not being entirely clear on what the SOFA is/has been about. This is ultimately the fault of the agenda-driven press and anti-American NGOs.
If the average Korean believes only half of what is in the press, that itself has been enough to be outraged; the problem is that too much of what is in the press is sensationalistic, deliberately geared toward an agenda of some kind, or just plain incorrect.
I’m sorry Korean girls won’t sleep with you, Shak, but do you have to vent your frustration here?
Maybe I should be a little less acerbic and a little more nuanced here, but after that chat you posted where you tried to drag that poor girl into a discussion of Tokto just made me wonder what goes through your mind when you meet Koreans and why you choose to interact with them the way you do.
Shak, in post and after post all you do is seem to show how much animosity you feel toward Korea. It’s the theme that ties all your posts together. And that means it’s futile to attempt a discussion of anything of substance with you.
I don’t know what beef you have with me, but why did you have to come at me with accusations of bigotry toward soldiers, people who are ‘low-class’ or from slums, and possibly even Jews? Why would you assume I look at Americans as “stupid Yanks”?
And if you are posting anonymously on my blog, have the guts to state who you are.
Quote: “…I think it is safe to say that there would be much to [lose] if the alliance were dissolved and the troops withdrawn…”
Comment: The withdrawal of US troops does not imply the dissolution of the alliance (unless of course the ROK decides it wants it that way).
Speaking for myself, I am indifferent as to a continued alliance; I fail to see why a “neutral” ROK would be bad for the US.
Do those of you who know Korea and Koreans think that they are incapable of neutrality, that the nature of politics and popular feeling in the ROK is such that either the Americans must be there on the ground in some force or else the ROK will eventually and inevitably join with the North in enthusiastic opposition to Japan (to include even the possible eventual basing of DPRK missiles on ROK soil)?
Quote: “I think that Anti-Americanism is real–particularly against what most Koreans feel is overly preferential treatment of American servicemen and what they view as an unfair SOFA agreement. The local politicians and the media have done little to clarify what it is, why it is needed and why it does offer US soldiers stationed here certain protections and rights not afforded to the average foreigner.”
Comment: if the SOFA is such a burning issue then remove the troops; “absence makes the heart grow fonder”.
Many here seem to assume that an advocacy of a US withdrawal of ground forces is a result of personal pique. But isn’t there a coherent argument to be made that such a withdrawal would force both Koreas to start dealing with each other on a realistic basis (instead of the fantasy assumptions that seem to prevail on both sides currently)?
Maintenance of a US guarantee of heavy retaliation from offshore in response to any DPRK-1950 style attack) would prevent a recurrence of another Korean war just as credibly IMO as if there were still US troops present.
If you want realism on the part of politicians (and the people they represent) then you have to stop providing them free disaster insurance (which they both resent and are unwilling to forego).
The best way to quit? Go “cold turkey” (now there’s a good idiom to teach to Korean English students).
Paul, I wish I had the time right now to thoroughly address your concerns, but I don’t.
Whether Korea is capable of being “neutral” or not, the region does not lend itself toward one being neutral. If South Korea, because of a series of blunders by ignorant and idealistic leadership, leaves an alliance with the US, it almost inevitably will slip into the China camp.
This would ultimately be a disaster for all sides in this area where FOUR major wars were fought over control of Korea or where control of Korea allowed a belligerent to fight someone else. And that means:
The past half century of Pax Americana in Northeast Asia has been THE greatest stabilizing factor in this region.
As for the SOFA, it is a big issue with some because they want it to be an issue to whip up public sentiment. These would be like the far right or far left in the U.S., where certain topics are known as hot-button issues that will whip up the public, or appear to whip up the public. But the fact remains that regardless what the far-leftists say here, most of the Korean population thinks that maintaining a US troop presence is necessary.
Paul, don’t believe the hype. When you do, you’re just playing into their hands.
I?€™m sorry Korean girls won?€™t sleep with you, Shak, but do you have to vent your frustration here?
What is with the ‘Kyopo posturing’ and personal insults? If I have any frustration towards Korea it is because of its schizophrenic attitude to foreigners. If anything, my association with Korean girls has been very positive (does that hurt you? It must be a sensitive point, since you chose to insult me with it).
I don?€™t know what beef you have with me, but why did you have to come at me with accusations of bigotry toward soldiers, people who are ?€?low-class?€™ or from slums, and possibly even Jews? Why would you assume I look at Americans as ?€œstupid Yanks?€??
You must think they are stupid if you think they cant tell anti Americanism when they see it. Also the ‘low class’ from ’slums’ part is a shot at the way the average Korean views American soldiers. Hundreds of Koreans have told me this. Go and deny that is the most common viewpoint concerning US soldiers in Korea, if you like. The Jewish thing, I was just interested by your choice of words.
And if you are posting anonymously on my blog, have the guts to state who you are.
Thats fighting words. I dont troll anyones blog, nor post ‘anonymously’ anywhere. I assume you will be apologising for casting unwarranted aspersions on my character.
troll (on your#15),
can you read japanese? its hard for me to find english links for the life of koreans in japan. anyway, followings are my personal observation (its bit long one and please forgive my lousy english):
one of the biggest problem of koreans in japan has been they falsely claimed they were forcefully brought to japan during the annexation period. that was dead wrong. there are specific stats. anyway based on this they have been demanding special treatments for them over years.
after the WW2, japan offered support(finance and transportation) for those koreans in japan to go back their motherland.
majority refused to go back (its sort of understandable because their motherland was at the war at that time). then, the japanese government issued special permanent stay permits as a special treatment. so still now, after 60 years, about 650thou koreans living in japan retain korean nationalities. (even though they are rok or dprk nationals, male dont have to serve to the army of their motherland)
while they keep korean nationalities, some of them claim for governmental office positions, voting right for national elections, special welfare program etc because they live in japan “long enough”. the process of naturalization for koreans with special permanent stay permit is so much easier than regular naturalization (another special treatment).
then they can have right to take governmental positions once they naturalize. there are ethnic-korean (or korean-japanese) politicians in national and local level, and goernment officers.
there are 2 major pressure (or interest) group representing koreans in japan; mindan (æ°‘???for those affiliated to rok) and souren?¼?æœ??®®?·??€?for those affiliated to dprk). souren is said to be involved in abducting japanese citizens, and money laundary tool for the north.
these pressure group have strong lobbying power too, and because of them, major mass-media in japan even now do not report anything negative about korea. in my opinion that is one of the reason korea wave gets widely accepted. ordinary japanese dont know much about bad thing about korea(naturally those “cute pictures” in the subway station were not reported any of major mass media)
these 2 groups run schools of their own, teaching kids based on the education program of motherlands, mindan with rok system, and souren with dprk. but if one wishs, any korean, naturalized or not, can attend regular japanese schools without any special arrangement.
now there are many 3rd generation koreans. and younger koreans are less and less being a member of either mindan or soren. i know some of these 3g koreans, some already naturalized and live as an ordinary japanese, some retain korean nationalities and complain about japan or suffering identity crisis; guess its not easy to worship the dear leader while living in japan, the evil capitalistic dog of the usa.
Whether Korea is capable of being “neutral” or not, the region does not lend itself toward one being neutral. If South Korea, because of a series of blunders by ignorant and idealistic leadership, leaves an alliance with the US, it almost inevitably will slip into the China camp.
SoWhat? Let them. If the China camp suits them, so be it. World War III won?€™t break out if South Korea goes into the communist sphere. Hell, a 10m statue of Dear Leader in Seoul would be a great tourist attraction.
I could possibly be a human rights disaster for South Koreans, but I?€™m sure human rights lawyers like Roh can wield great power under the influence of China and North Korea.
ahem
but as Japanese companies went bankrupt Korean laborers did not get paid their wage. please! it may be so in korean companies, but japanese company did not do so. if you think so, please give me some proof.
being in rok, i face many small size korean business stop paying salary once their cash flow is short. but not in japan. and that applies to korean workers too.
In fact, many Korean miners worked essentially as a indentured slaves for the mines and if they ran away, they would be severely punished. well, miners… now in 20th century and 21st century, there have been no mining industry in japan after 1950’s. and during that time, it was not just koreans, but japanese labors suffered. not that i dont feel sorry for those workers, but point is japanese did not discriminate korean miners.
well there are so many b.s. in your post that i would say most of what you wrote was inaccurate or false. if you intentionally did, i just ignore it. if you truely believe what you wrote was true, please study more on history. it is so sad i can get this sort of poor fake response on zainichi people.
One need look no further than the Chairman of the Lotte group to see what Shakuhachi is talking about-that guy abandoned his family in Korea and while he obviously has not trouble making money in Korea, he chooses to live in Japan with his Japanese wife. The fact that he has a Japanese wife is not a problem, rather it is the fact that he conveniently abandoned his Korean family that is discraceful.
For those who are interested in Zainichi related issues, this author strongly agrees with Mae and Shakuhachi that each reader start his own study/investigation. But I suggest that you seek out primary sources, i.e. Zainichi themselves, rather than secondary/tertiary sources like myself/Mae/Shakuhachi
But some places to start:
http://www.isop.ucla.edu/eas/n.....iscrim.htm
http://www.han.org
http://www.wm.edu/so/monitor/spring2000/paper1.htm
http://hnn.us/articles/10199.html
Mae and Shakuhachi makes some valid points, especially regarding statistics. But saying stuff like, “you are a liar, vast majority of Koreans were not forced laborers or had their salaries withheld,” to the perhaps minority (thousands) who were thus screwed, doesn’t earn empathy nor admiration. Hell, my own grandfather loved Japanese people and went all the way to Manchuria to work for a Japanese company.
As for the Koreans in Sakhalin, why don’t you do your own reasearch on that too?
But you know why so many Koreans/zainichi have an axe to grind? I’ll tell you a personal story given to me by my zainichi friend. She was unfortunate enough to grow up in a boondocks of Hokkaido where her elementary teacher taught in class, “The most beautiful language in the world is English. The second most beautiful language is Japanese. The ugliest language in the world is Korean.” It’s this type of stories that travel around zainichi circle that gets people worked up. Oh wait. this isn’t documented. and the stories of comfort women don’t have documentation either. Which means that these primary sources are liars, because they are stupid Koreans. What was I thinking? Only the Nazis who kept detailed records are guilty of anything.
Good scholarship demands that we seek multiple primary sources. Well, get going~
those who can read japanese and are interested in how a zainichi feels, please please read this. it has quite fair and logical reflections by 3g zainichi.
virtual wonderer,
Good scholarship demands that we seek multiple primary sources. Well, get going~
surely it is far much better than just condemning japs based on rumors and propagandas by korean textbooks and mass-media.
my father in-law was born in sakhalin and he told me about the hardship he and others had there. so i know japanese there did not come back to japan with luxurious first class cabin provided by the japanese government.
but i was ignorant about koreans in sakhalin and so made some research myself, and found dejavu.
again, no offense to you personally, but it was similar false claim by zainichi; some(koreans, and ani-japanese japs) claimed all koreans were forced to go there and not paid, but some(including koreans) said they went there to seek opportunity.
anyway it is stalin, not japanese, who prohibit from koreans to go back. still japanese govenments after the war have paid approx $70-80mil. to promote a program help koreans in sakhalin to go back while ussr/russia has practically done nothing. (well, i dont ask any praise for japanese from you, though)
sad thing i found, however, i cannot find much active role of korean government for those koreans suffering there except blaiming japanese.(probably because i only use japanese references, from leftist-anti-japan japanese authors to nationalist ultra-right nutheads in order to have some balanced view.)
Virtual
I don?€™t know what beef you have with me, but why did you have to come at me with accusations of bigotry toward soldiers, people who are ?€?low-class?€™ or from slums, and possibly even Jews? Why would you assume I look at Americans as ?€œstupid Yanks?€??
You must think they are stupid if you think they cant tell anti Americanism when they see it.I never said anyone was stupid. That was your phrasing, which you attributed to me: “stupid yanks.”
I think that people are misconstruing things if they take demonstrations over the death of two girls to mean most everyone wants the US out of Korea. The leftist groups have monopolized the message when Korean thoughts about USFK are in fact far more diverse.
I think this is largely the fault of both Korean and Western media, which are easily manipulated by agendas. Very different from thinking consumers of that media are “stupid yanks.”Also the ?€?low class?€™ from ?€™slums?€™ part is a shot at the way the average Korean views American soldiers.But this was a viewpoint you were attributing to me. Why? Do I represent all of Korea to you?Hundreds of Koreans have told me this. Go and deny that is the most common viewpoint concerning US soldiers in Korea, if you like.I agree it is a very common viewpoint in Korea (though I’m not sure if it is the “most common viewpoint”). But is this my viewpoint? Why are you ascribing this to me? I have a far greater association with US military people than you do and I have a great amount of respect for USFK personnel. It’s rather insulting (or “rude,” which is one of your favorite things to throw at people who disagree with you) that you would mischaracterize my viewpoint in this way simply, ascribing a bunch of stereotypes to me, because I stated that “anti-Americanism” in Korea is often misconstrued.The Jewish thing, I was just interested by your choice of words.What choice of words was that? Why are you so quick to throw anti-Semitism into the pot?And if you are posting anonymously on my blog, have the guts to state who you are.
Thats fighting words. I dont troll anyones blog, nor post ?€?anonymously?€™ anywhere. I assume you will be apologising for casting unwarranted aspersions on my character.What aspersions would those be? I didn’t say the person was trolling; I meant that the post(s) in question are things I think you would likely agree with, so there was no intent to defame.
But if it really has hurt you that people might think you would post anonymously, you have my expressions of deep remorse.
I never said anyone was stupid. That was your phrasing, which you attributed to me: ?€œstupid yanks.?€?
Actually if you go back and read what I wrote, I never put the words stupid yanks in double inverted commas, so you cant say that I attributed them to you. I was being sarcastic though.
I think that people are misconstruing things if they take demonstrations over the death of two girls to mean most everyone wants the US out of Korea. The leftist groups have monopolized the message when Korean thoughts about USFK are in fact far more diverse.
If it was just a media thing, then how come they were able to get so many people to the protests? I agree that the media is a problem (I remember one Korean language article describing the accident as ‘murder’).
If you know of any Koreans that take a reasonable stance on the USFK, show us the links. I know that a great many Koreans still want to USFK to stay, but those same people still consider them to be low class scum that are never punished for any crimes they commit, on or off duty, in Korea.
But this was a viewpoint you were attributing to me. Why? Do I represent all of Korea to you?
Single inverted commas do not always represent a quote, but can also be used to highlight dialect, slang, jargon, or express words ironically. You can tell by the context, and since you did not say that it is unlikely that I would be attributing it to you.
What aspersions would those be? I didn?€™t say the person was trolling; I meant that the post(s) in question are things I think you would likely agree with, so there was no intent to defame.
You were trying to imply that I was a coward, that I dont have “the guts to state” who I am (there, a quote!).
But if it really has hurt you that people might think you would post anonymously, you have my expressions of deep remorse.
Sarcastic apology graciously accepted.
Mae,
I’ve never said that ALL Koreans were forced laborers. And as such I’ve even admitted that your statistics has merit as far as saying that most Koreans went to Japan or Japanese occupied territories for economic reasons. That being said, the problem that I have with your type of thinking has ALWAYS been, you and other conservative Japanese have used it to whitewash history. Again, despite what you think I actually like Japan, like Japanese people, and in fact, my grandfather is what you call a “Chin-il-pah”. So I know first hand that many Koreans, including my grandfather, really respected and liked japanese people. It’s really grating to hear from a Japanese when they essentially say, “Most Koreans did not suffer at all.” The problem is that, it’s almost like saying, “Those who suffered are insiginificant in history. Tough luck to them.”
This does not change the fact that Imperial Japan during WWII did some awful stuff. Now it’s completely true that Koreans take the most extremist positions in Japan-bashing and even create fictions; however, you interpret or rather you seem to project all the things you hate about what stupid Koreans do on me, perhaps putting imaginery arguments in my writing. It even feels that you are backpaddling on the Sakhalin issue.
You don’t think I know that Japanese people were also suffering during WWII? What gets Koreans as well as the rest of Asians who suffered under Japanese is that the suffering of Japanese people have been used as a way to whitewash Japanese history—i.e. we had 2 nukes dropped on us, therefore we are victims too. Hey, I grant you that if the Korean dumbass of a King (btw I must thank the Japanese emperor for assassinating him) had industrialized first, we would be talking about how Koreans killed and tortured teh Japanese. Heck, it might have been worse. But counter factual speculation is not what is at issue here, but a simple statement that maybe it’s not such a nice thing to drag people away from their families and give them a shovel or a rifle. Which, you admit, did happen. Now, we are forced to play a numbers game.
Now, I have to read stuff like, “Masayhoshi Son is zainichi which proves there is no discrimination in Japan.” (which in your wisdom, did not say, but is rather spoken by the Japanese equivalent of poster “kimbob”) And I said, “Many Japanese people are out of touch with Zainichi people.” And i know that there is at least ONE Japanese person on this blog who is indeed out of touch with zainichi issues, or rather have funny logic.
I urge you to talk to your father-in-law more and anyone who had to deal with Koreans first hand.
I would think my friend, that the Japanese had a responsiblity to pressure safe passage of Koreans from Sakhalin, but your response is essentially, “We lost and therefore, we could not help them go back to their homeland. That;s Stalin’s fault” Whereas that is true, I still find it grating that Japan was somehow able to convince the Russians to return their nationals but not the Koreans—afterall, the rationale behind Stalin’s thinking was that he needed miners. Ahh, but I am a paranoid person? Why would Stalin return the Japanese and not the Koreans? Hmmmm…
The reason I don’t hate japanese people is again, that much of these kind of scholarship is done by Japanese people. But it is true that i have an irrational loathing of Shakuhachi.
Again, when you compare teh actions of the Japanese government to the actions of teh Korean government it’s like comparing the ethical nature of Viet Cong as opposed to the Khmer Rouge. Do I, as a Korean American, have to write, “The Japanese did awful things, but the Koreans are WORSE!” Everytime I write about comfort women issue, laborer issues, etc etc ad naseum? Because it seems to me that’s what you are demanding.
I am simply asking that you judge me by the same ruler that you judge your own compatriots. If you look at my own postings, you may come to realize that I have a strong hatred for hanchongryun members. But when I see you or shakuhachi’s post, I get this distinct impression that maybe you are water boys for those guys in vans blaring nationalist chants in Japan. Am I wrong?
Shakuhachi wrote:You were trying to imply that I was a coward, that I dont have ?€œthe guts to state?€? who I am (there, a quote!).Actually, Shakuhachi, I wrote that if you are posting anonymously on my blog, then you should have the guts to state who you are.
That “if” is crucial, since I did not feel certain that you were the person I was thinking of. My statement was one of sincere curiosity more than accusation, but it might not have been the best choice of words unless I was pretty sure.
But if you say that you were not writing anonymous comments on my blog, I believe you: I may not agree with much of what you say and I think you are too quick and too broad with some of your criticisms of Korea, but I don’t recall you ever being dishonest.But if it really has hurt you that people might think you would post anonymously, you have my expressions of deep remorse.
Sarcastic apology graciously accepted. So you admit that an expression of deep remorse is nothing more than a sarcastic apology!
I do think Chewie and the person trolling your blog are probably different people, the troller swears a lot more in his flames. You can’t really be sure though.
I do surmise, though, that all the flamers trollers really couldn’t possibly consist of more than a handful of people. Korea-Japan disputes are a niche issue of relatively little interest to the rest of the world, with no potential to ever escalate into real violence. The number of people (who are not directly interested parties) that can get excited enough to flame and jiralivate about the issue must be tiny.
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