By SHELTON BUMGARNER
Marmot’s Hole Guest Blogger
Security issues and North Korea again loom large in the Korean blogosphere. The Lost Nomad links to a Yonhap piece that suggests that the DPRK is simply playing a waiting game with the current American administration.
According to this article in Yonhap, Hwang Jang-yop, the highest ranking NORK defector, claims that North Korea will return to the six-way talks but will delay any progress until the end of the Bush administration.
Meanwhile, Free North Korea! is concerned about a provision of the GOP Energy Bill that may “gut” safeguards controls of highly enriched uranium exports.
Ruminations in Korea has an interesting take on a recent letter to The Korea Times by a Korean War vet from the United States, who complains about the attitude of Koreans vis-a-vis the United States.
Migukin is looking for beta-testers as its July 4th launch approaches.
Our “Korea, Assignment of Choice” moment comes from The Lost Nomad’s quote about the DPRK from Yonhap:
“The North, at the end of its delaying tactic, will seek to extract more concessions from South Korea than it did during the government of former president Kim Dae-jung,” Hwang said Saturday in a meeting with visiting U.S. human rights activists.
53 Comments
“NORK”
Haven’t heard that one in a while.
Migukin is looking for beta-testers as its July 4th launch approaches.
beta-testers???
What sort of pretentious twaddle is this? You mean you’re looking for contributing writers? Why not noy just say so?
Maybe he wants people to nail it with ICMP pings using the full force of their evil Kangnam FTTH lines. At least that’s the way I took it.
I think you meant migugin, as opposed to migukin, which would be someone who tries to make it evident in his pronunciation that he is one, like a “brother” saying he’s a “brothah.” Hm. Come to think of it maybe you did that on purpose. Sorry.
“beta testing.” i LOVE IT!!! just when i thought good ol’ shelton, sheldon, shel-ddong was giving in to his naysayers and backing off a bit he makes a triumphant return. no keeping this boy down!!!
by the way, it’s “ddong, not ttong” unless you’ve invented another romanization method, which may bery well be the case.
Oranckay the Reluctant Romanization Cop says: No judge judy, ??? = ttong, in both the current and immediately previous official ROk romanization systems.
What I meant by “beta testers” is people to look the site over and tell me ways to improve it. “It sucks, shut it down” is not an acceptable answer, either
As for “migugin” as opposed to “migukin,” I have asked half a dozen English speaking Koreans today which is correct and the answers ranged from “correct, but doesn’t sound as natural” to “same same.”
If actual Koreans are telling me that face to face, then I am comfortable defending my use of “k” instead of “g.” Additionally, my audience is expats like me teaching English here in Korea who would probably only barely know that “American” in Korean is “Migukin” and not “Megook.”
As was explained to me, the confusion over “g” vs “k” comes from the fact that when adding the “in” to the word “Miguk,” the hard “k” becomes the softer “g,” even though the sound remains close enough to “k” that 99 percent of Koreans probably wouldn’t even feel the need to vocalize an objection to the writing of “k” instead of “g” if they saw the word written down.
Additionally, I have established something that the folks who are regular readers of The Marmot’s Hole could really have some fun with. It is called MigukinWiki and its aim is to establish a storage house for the collected wisdom of expats and English speaking Koreans.
Oh. While I use the same publishing system as The Marmot, I have decided to use a different forum system. So, thanks Oranckay for your comments, but I don’t know if they’ll ever be viewed.
Please feel free to use my forums at http://www.migukin.com/forums/
Maybe I missed this somewhere, but what does OOB, in the title, stand for. I can’t figure it out.
On Other Blogs
Mr. Bumgarner, just for future reference: there is no such thing as a k between two vowels in any widely used romanization system. ??± between vowels, as in ??¸???….??±….. ??¸. ‘?…œ’ and ‘?…?’ are vowels, so…. ??± in that context gets to be a g.
(Let me stress that it was overwhelmingly foreigners who wanted the ??± to change btwn g and k according to position in the new gov’t system and they got what they wanted. Very many Koreans wanted the ??± to stay g all the time, which would have left you with the country called “Migug.”)
I was not asked to be a Marmot’s Hole guest blogger, but if I had been, I would have paused long and hard, and debated whether I was up to the task. Ultimately, I think I would have turned it down simply because of doubt that I am worthy.
However, I did suspect that certain other people, when they were asked if they were willing to be a guest blogger, hardly gave any thought to their own worthiness. Instead, such certain people saw it as an opportunity for self-promotion and self-aggrandizement.
This post absolutely confirms my suspicions. Indubitably.
I color me flummuxed.
You didn’t address the issue at hand — is “migukin” ok?
Yes or No
As I said, I asked about 6 English speaking Koreans today if it was ok to write “migukin” instead of “migugin” and they told me that pretty much it was no big deal. In fact, the worst comment I could get — at much prodding on my part — was from my headteacher who told me that “migukin” didn’t sound “natural,” but that spelling it that way was “acceptable.”
Shouldn’t a English speaking Korean be a pretty good source on the matter?
In fact, I asked my native-speaking Korean girlfriend several times how to romanize the Korean sounds into English before I bought the domain name and she told me it was with a k.
Also, from a marketing standpoint, I like “migukin” much better than “migugin,” and my audience is much more likely to understand what I’m talking about with “migukin” than “migugin.” We’re both right or I’m so close to being at least “not wrong” that this shouldn’t be an issue.
My girlfriend weighs in on the subject:
????????œ ?“°??? ?¸€ ?³´?³? ??€??? ?¶??¸???´??œ ??¨??? ??¼?????” ?¶??“¤?³¼ ??´??¼?¸°??¼ ????????´ ?³´???????????¤. ????????œ ?§??”€???????Œ€?¡œ migigin ?œ¼?¡œ ?“°??” ?²???´ ??œ????´ ?°œ??Œ?³¼ ?°€??? ?œ?????????¤??” ?²°?¡???´ ??´??¤?¡Œ?œ¼???, migukin?œ¼?¡œ ?“°??” ?²???? ??€??° ?²???€ ????????¼??” ?²°?¡???? ??¨??? ??´??¤?¡Œ????????¤.
??œ????´?™€ ?????´??” ????²´????œ¼?¡œ ?°œ??Œ?²´?³??°€ ??€??°?²???´??€?¡œ ??´??‡?“? ????²? ?°¨??´?°€ ????¸°??” ?²???€ ??¹??°?????¤?³? ????°?????????¤.
I’m with Oranckay on the Romanization.
I hate to say this, but many Koreans are not very good at giving advice on Romanization. There is too much of a tendency to slip into a one-to-one correspondence between Han’g?l and Roman characters or other over-simplifications, rather than sounding out how things sound.
Shelton, your use of “migukin” instead of “migugin” just screams that you are a Korea newbie. Had you opened up any Korean phrasebook, you would have seen that “migugin” is the way it’s pronounced. “Migukin” is not even close.
And why “Miguk”in at all? You may have just shut out a majority of English speakers in Korea by using that as your title.
Anyway, it’s disappointing to see that such blatant self-promotion is what the Ahssa Hole is now being used for.
A D S B Y G O O G L E
Cheap fares to Japan
I color me flummuxed.Is that like “flummoxed,” only with less attention to details like spelling?You didn?€™t address the issue at hand ?€” is ?€œmigukin?€? ok?
Yes or NoEmphatically: NO.As I said, I asked about 6 English speaking Koreans today if it was ok to write ?€œmigukin?€? instead of ?€œmigugin?€? and they told me that pretty much it was no big deal. In fact, the worst comment I could get ?€” at much prodding on my part ?€” was from my headteacher who told me that ?€œmigukin?€? didn?€™t sound ?€œnatural,?€? but that spelling it that way was ?€œacceptable.?€?
Shouldn?€™t a English speaking Korean be a pretty good source on the matter?See my comment above. Next time consult Lonely Planet or Berlitz.In fact, I asked my native-speaking Korean girlfriend several times how to romanize the Korean sounds into English before I bought the domain name and she told me it was with a k.Native speaker of what? Native speaker of Romanization?Also, from a marketing standpoint, I like ?€œmigukin?€? much better than ?€œmigugin,?€? and my audience is much more likely to understand what I?€™m talking about with ?€œmigukin?€? than ?€œmigugin.?€?So you’re pandering to the ignorati? Have fun with that.We?€™re both right or I?€™m so close to being at least ?€œnot wrong?€? that this shouldn?€™t be an issue.No. You’re wrong and Oranckay is write. This is not like the question of whether ?¶€??° should be Pusan or Busan, or whether ?Œ€??? should be Taej??n or Daejeon. Flat out, there is no mainstream Romanization system where “Migukin” would be a correct rendering of ??¸????¸ or even ??¸????¸´. What you wrote is ??¸?????¨.My girlfriend weighs in on the subject:
????????œ ?“°??? ?¸€ ?³´?³? ??€??? ?¶??¸???´??œ ??¨??? ??¼?????” ?¶??“¤?³¼ ??´??¼?¸°??¼ ????????´ ?³´???????????¤. ????????œ ?§??”€???????Œ€?¡œ migigin ?œ¼?¡œ ?“°??” ?²???´ ??œ????´ ?°œ??Œ?³¼ ?°€??? ?œ?????????¤??” ?²°?¡???´ ??´??¤?¡Œ?œ¼???, migukin?œ¼?¡œ ?“°??” ?²???? ??€??° ?²???€ ????????¼??” ?²°?¡???? ??¨??? ??´??¤?¡Œ????????¤.
??œ????´?™€ ?????´??” ????²´????œ¼?¡œ ?°œ??Œ?²´?³??°€ ??€??°?²???´??€?¡œ ??´??‡?“? ????²? ?°¨??´?°€ ????¸°??” ?²???€ ??¹??°?????¤?³? ????°?????????¤. Your girlfriend is mistaken. See above.
I hate to say this, but many Koreans are not very good at giving advice on Romanization. There is too much of a tendency to slip into a one-to-one correspondence between Han?€™g?l and Roman characters or other over-simplifications, rather than sounding out how things sound.
Aren’t you are not respecting Koreans like my girlfriend by telling them they don’t even understand the language that they were taught since birth? It’s like a Korean telling an English speaker that they can’t say a sentence like “I’m coming with you, aren’t I?” in English.” Yes, it may be wrong from a text-book point of view, but in spoken English it’s perfectly acceptable.
My girlfriend — along with several other Koreans — told me that “migukin” was acceptable so that should be the end of the debate.
I?€™m with Oranckay on the Romanization.
So I’m wrong? Black and white wrong? If there is some confusion on the matter, then using “k” should be fine, esp. given my audience.
And again, I see my audience for migukin as made up of individuals “just screams (sic) that you are a Korea newbie” and would like to read news about Korea from that point of view.
I picked “Migukin” instead of “Waygukin” (or Waygugin) for a number of reasons, chief among them being that being American in Korea is A Big Deal to some in the expat community and so I felt it would be cool to “reclaim” the word and make it positive.
I thought long and hard about picking “migukin,” instead of some nationality free word, but the issue is about branding, not nationality. Simply because it’s called The New York Times, doesn’t mean it can only cover news directly related to New York City or State.
Migukin is coming from an American expat point of view, but it’s more of a state of mind that a statement of exclusion of other views or the contribution of non-American expat writers.
Your statement that I am using the Marmot’s Hole for “blatant self-promotion” is wholly without merit. A one line comment asking for people just to look the site over does not “blatant self-promotion” make.
The spelling error was in a comment not a post. I would correct it, but you mentioned it. I have never made any claim to being a spelling expert.
Mr. Bumgarner??? ????¹œ?????? ?§??”€?“œ??½?????¤.
??´??‡??? ?¸°?¤€?œ¼?¡œ ‘migukin?œ¼?¡œ ?“°??” ?²???? ??€??° ?²???€ ????????¼??” ?²°?¡?’??? ??´????…¨??”?§€ ?ª¨??´?²??œ¼??? ‘migukin’??€ ??´??¤ ?‘œ?¸°?²??œ¼?¡œ??? ?§??§€ ?????” ?²???…?????¤. ??¼?§? ??? ??´ ??¸??œ?™€ ?´€??¨??´??œ ?²½????????¸??? ?¸°?³???¸??? ??¸ ?????´ ???????????¤. ?¡°?¸???´????§? ?????€??´ ???????œ¼??´ ????????¤.
Geez,
For a change I may have to stick up for Shelton. Who cares about the use of “g” or “k” in this word. The romanization of Korean has been fucked-up for years, and the attempt a few years ago to create a universal system has been plagued with debate over its accuracy.
G, K, who the fuck cares. We all know what it means. And wouldn’t Shelton’s spelling with a “k” indicate that he has been around for long time, since that spelling was more common before the romanization changes? Newbies should be more comfotable with the current system. I just don’t see how the use of “k” in migukin sceams newbie.
Although I’m with you guys on the self-promotion–and I love your use of the “Ahssa Hole.” Now that’s funny!
Shelton wrote:I hate to say this, but many Koreans are not very good at giving advice on Romanization. There is too much of a tendency to slip into a one-to-one correspondence between Han?€™g?l and Roman characters or other over-simplifications, rather than sounding out how things sound.
Aren?€™t you are not respecting Koreans like my girlfriend by telling them they don?€™t even understand the language that they were taught since birth?Your girlfriend was taught Romanization from birth?
If your girlfriend thinks that there is any k sound in ??¸????¸, then there is a disconnect between her Korean-speaking abilities and her command of the Roman alphabet.It?€™s like a Korean telling an English speaker that they can?€™t say a sentence like ?€œI?€™m coming with you, aren?€™t I??€? in English.?€? Yes, it may be wrong from a text-book point of view, but in spoken English it?€™s perfectly acceptable.No, it’s not.My girlfriend ?€” along with several other Koreans ?€” told me that ?€œmigukin?€? was acceptable so that should be the end of the debate.I’ve had several Americans insist to me that Guam is not part of the US, but that wouldn’t make them right. Confidence in one’s ignorance does not make one accurate.I?€™m with Oranckay on the Romanization.
So I?€™m wrong? Black and white wrong?Black and white wrong. “Migukin” would not render ??¸????¸, but ??¸?????¨. As an initial sound, ??± and ?…? can sound a bit similar, but between two vowels, there is an absolutely clear distinction.If there is some confusion on the matter, then using ?€œk?€? should be fine, esp. given my audience.Your audience is Koreans who don’t know how to Romanize?And again, I see my audience for migukin as made up of individuals ?€œjust screams (sic) that you are a Korea newbie?€? and would like to read news about Korea from that point of view.By uninformed newbies for uninformed newbies?I picked ?€œMigukin?€? instead of ?€œWaygukin?€? (or Waygugin) for a number of reasons, chief among them being that being American in Korea is A Big Deal to some in the expat community and so I felt it would be cool to ?€œreclaim?€? the word and make it positive.Since when is “migugin” a negative word?I thought long and hard about picking ?€œmigukin,?€? instead of some nationality free word, but the issue is about branding, not nationality. Simply because it?€™s called The New York Times, doesn?€™t mean it can only cover news directly related to New York City or State.Or even better, that Marmot’s Hole is not just for rodents.
Likening migukin.com to the NYT? Shelton, your delusions of grandeur blind you to your own inadequacies, which means you are utterly unwilling to address them.Migukin is coming from an American expat point of view, but it?€™s more of a state of mind that a statement of exclusion of other views or the contribution of non-American expat writers.It smacks of arrogance, like Americans naturally belong at the top of the foodchain. Have fun talking about how kyopos are poised to take all the jobs from Caucasians.Your statement that I am using the Marmot?€™s Hole for ?€œblatant self-promotion?€? is wholly without merit. A one line comment asking for people just to look the site over does not ?€œblatant self-promotion?€? make. Shelton, post after post of yours contained link after link trying to draw the reader to Ahssa. This is just the cherry on top.
G, K, who the fuck cares. We all know what it means. And wouldn?€™t Shelton?€™s spelling with a ?€œk?€? indicate that he has been around for long time, since that spelling was more common before the romanization changes?Before the Romanization changes, a version of McCune-Reischauer was in place. In both M-R and NAKL (the current system), ??¸?? is Miguk and ??¸????¸ is Migugin. Simply attaching -in (for ??¸) to Miguk without recognizing the inherent sound change draws attention to his lack of savvy on these matters. Hardly a positive for someone trying to make a go-to Korea-related site to rival Marmot’s. I think I am just finding the sophomoronic rantings too grating. I thought taking a break from Marmot’s for a week would cure me of that, but sadly, no. Although I?€™m with you guys on the self-promotion?€“and I love your use of the ?€œAhssa Hole.?€? Now that?€™s funny!Feel free to use it, but remember, the proper citation would be, “what Kushibo calls ‘the Ahssa Hole.”" *
* This is not meant as self-promotion or self-aggrandizement. By ensuring that my name is attached to this witty moniker for the revered Marmot’s Hole, I am simply protecting my own intellectual…
Ah, what bullshit. I should just come out and admit I’m just trying to promote myself and my blog like there’s no tomorrow.
Or maybe I should just write big, long posts that are nothing but one big, long link to my blog. Not there’s anything really of substance on my blog other than that now-famous “Corea versus Korea” post, which still gets cited from time to time, including when Gord recently had up all those Japan-bashing drawings from the kiddies. By the way, I was in Starbuck’s today and they had a bunch of kiddie drawings of Starbuck’s on display. Now I think it’s bad enough that we have teachers trying to whip up anger in kiddies, but do we need to promote substance addiction, too? I mean, what is the deal behind having elementary school kids draw pictures glorifying and singing the praises of a place that provides a caffeine fix? Jiminy-freaking Christmas! Anyway, if you really have read this far, feel free to come over to my blog and say hello, as a reward for my blatant self-promotion.
If you enjoyed that bit of “performance art,” you’ll love the rest of what you’ll find over at Kushibo-e Kibun, where my goal is to make a site that will rival this one. It’ll be the go-to site for people who log on to the Net only once a week.
Wow, Kushibo. I thought I was hyper-critical about many ex-pat Bloggers and even so-called “Korea experts” who pollute the mainstream media.
But I am not “worthy” next to ya
Oh, and another thing that makes you look like the screaming hagwon newbie that you are:
It’s not that big a deal to have a girlfriend. You find every excuse to remind everyone you have one. You’ve posted her picture. Jesus, dude. Cut it out. I feel sorry for her, for so many reasons, that I’m not going to cut on her (yet), but you’re seriously just asking for it. We get it, okay? You have a Korean girlfriend. That’s fantastic. It doesn’t make us think you’re any cooler, and it does make you look like an ass who parades around his little Asian prize.
I truly can’t imagine that your girlfriend really wants to be used the way you use her, nor can I imagine that she gets off on the way you publicize your relationship. It’s gross and ugly. Stop it.
In the vanishingly (!) rare situation in which your girlfriend is germane to the conversation, you have a pass on this. Otherwise, keep her out of it. I say this for her sake.
I was trying to stay away, but you’re just such a train wreck. It’s my weakness.
OMFG!!! i think i just peed in my pants! this is the most hilarious thread on the site.
oranckay-i stand corrected. ttong, not ddong. i was too lazy to look up the different romanization tables…
seriously, oranckay and kushibo, i’m gonna have to put on diapers before i read the back and forth between you and shel-ttong. and bumgarner, why do you just ask for such abuse? if you’re gonna buy a domain, check out the romanization beforehand. i’m starting to feel sorry for you, little buddy.
I think the funniest thing I have ever seen was ?¶???¹ romanized Puntang.
I wrote:No. You?€™re wrong and Oranckay is write.Obviously, this should have been “You’re wrong and Oranckay is right.” I bow my freshly-shaved head in shame.
Ten thousand apologies, dear readers of the Ahssa Hole.
The spelling error was in a comment not a post. I would correct it, but you mentioned it. I have never made any claim to being a spelling expert.True, but I suspect you didn’t know how to spell the word in the first place and, typical of your style, you never really bothered to look it up. Or maybe you asked a panel of native-Korean learners of English. At least you didn’t spell “flummoxed” with a k.
Perhaps I am a journalistic snob, but a writer who dismisses pathologically bad spelling regularly foisted on the public by simply saying he or she “never made any claim to being a spelling expert,” is undeserving of the title of “writer.”
Spelling is not a specialty of writing, like cardiology is to medicine. It is part and parcel of the writing package, more like being able to park is to driving. How much would we tolerate it if drivers just left their cars in the middle of traffic, telling people who complain that, “I never made any claim to being a parking expert.”
Well, outside of Seoul it would not be tolerated!
with bumgarner on board, who needs a troll?
marmot must be thinking, my readers are too tight assed
lux wrote:marmot must be thinking, my readers are too tight assed We’re all in the diamond industry.
You pendantic fuckers. You allow the fact that Shelton indisputably sucks to draw you into a dumb-ass position on romanization. Leave that guy alone! He sucks, but don’t allow him to make you suck too!
I strongly disagree that romanization of “migukin” makes that phrase completely incomprehensible. It’s not. It is true morphophonemic shift causes the third syllable’s initial consonant to soften as a “g” sound, but that doesn’t mean we must be trapped writing out that consonant as a “g”. Migugin is in fact stupid-looking, and stupidity of appearance is to be avoided in romanizations.
There is a decent argument to be made that since migukin is a three-syllable compound, comprised of “miguk” and “in” (which would be romanized just so if they were written separately), migukin is in fact the most correct way to romanize. Anyway, we all know what he was getting at (stupid as it is) and besides, anyone who says “adashi” — which I think is his target audience — is never going to get it right anyway.
Peking and Beijing are written two different ways. Any Mandarin speaker knows, regardless of the romanization system, that the pronunciations are the same. Similarly, the second syllable in Taipei is pronounced exactly as the first syllable in Beijing, as they represent the same damn character. They are romanized differently and yet inexplicably the Earth keeps rotating.
Similarly, if you don’t speak the language, no romanization is ever (and I mean EVER) going to lead you to the proper pronunciation. If the language is completely foreign to you, so is the pronunciation. This is why Americans get treated to newscasters like Connie Chung trill-buzzing the “j” in Beijing when under both hanyu pinyin and ordinary English pronunciation a “j” is just a “j” as in Jingle Bells. Therefore, adopting any romanization system to try to “faithfully” reproduce pronunciation as a guide to a non-speaker is a fool’s errand.
Koreans are the absolute worst at this — it seems like every single Korean thinks he and he alone has got the magic formula (after all, who but a “native speaker” should be qualified to pass judgment on a romanization?) and that’s how we get treated to the surnames Kim, Kymn, Kimm, Kimn, Keem, Gim, Gimm, Gheem, Ghim, Ghymnn (I kid you not) — and, of course, Myxyzptlk — all being pronounced the same. But thanks to the “corrections” advanced by the various bearers of those surnames, who except a native speaker or very fluent second-language speaker would guess?
During a brief period where I lost my critical faculties, I joined a Korean law firm where there were two guys, one named Park and the other named Baak. They were brothers, but one convinced himself that “Baak” was more “correct”. Oy vey!
And now this Shelton has got all of you (and me!) in the same fruitless and insane argument. Damn him!
I see that flying fingers have trapped me into misspelling “pedantic”. How apropos.
“Oranckay the Reluctant Romanization Cop” - since when? I am still waiting for the translation of that old swear word that I asked you about ages ago - give up the meaning Oranckay
Oranckay wrote:Meanwhile pls note I never said the guy should change ?€œmigukin,?€? just asked him why he did it that way. ?€œOranckay?€? is wrong by any 20th century system too, btw, but I do think in this case ?€œmigukin?€? is a bad idea. (Not because the VANKers might get on his case, either.Henceforth, I shall be “Cushy Beau.”
During a brief period where I lost my critical faculties, I joined a Korean law firm where there were two guys, one named Park and the other named Baak. They were brothers, but one convinced himself that ?€œBaak?€? was more ?€œcorrect?€?. Oy vey
Brendon Carr gives the best example of why a romanization system should be followed instead of random “I think it looks/sounds/works better this way.”
Obviously there’s not thing morally wrong with “migukin,” but there’s nothing wrong with a Park and a Baak in the same family, either. Unless, that is, you want to be able to find one of them… if they were traveling with a cousin in SE Asia and they lost each other, the cousin might not be able to tell the police the names of his cousins…. that’s not an exaggeration, it really happens and reportedly it was one of the reasons it was so hard to find the Koreans after the tsunami - family members would call around looking for each other and not know how to spell each other because sometimes people get too creative. Anyone who knows what he’s doing will internet search “migugin” and not find migukin.com. Meanwhile pls note I never said the guy should change “migukin,” just asked him why he did it that way. “Oranckay” is wrong by any 20th century system too, btw, but I do think in this case “migukin” is a bad idea. (Not because the VANKers might get on his case, either.)
[note to robert neff... you were going to tell me what the word was again because I'm getting old and not as smart as I look]
So Brendon Carr is a linguist to boot! Even though I agree with Oranckay and Kushibo on this, he did raise a subtle but notable point about the addition of “in” to “Miguk.”
Luke wrote:
And wouldn?€™t Shelton?€™s spelling with a ?€œk?€? indicate that he has been around for long time, since that spelling was more common before the romanization changes?
McCune-Reischauer romanization was first developed in 1939, and quickly became the most prevalent system for romanizing Korean. In that system, a “k” between two vowel sounds is always written as a “g,” as in the current system. The former official system in South Koreafrom 1984 to 2000was closely based on McCune-Reischauer, with only a couple of minor modifications (e.g., writing “w” as “wo” andnote to Kushibowriting the orthodox “si” as the more accessible “shi”).
…And of course, under one romanization system, the second ??± does get rendered as a “k”: it would be “Migwuk.in” in Yale Romanization….
Argh, typo:
It would be “Mikwuk.in” in Yale Romanization.
Some more random blatherings:
I won’t get pedantic about whether Shelton is right or wrong, but I will note that it helps no one to encourage or perpetuate what is essentially a misspelling.
On the other hand, Daewoo, Samsung, and Hyundai are three just three common examples of well-known Korean brand names (a la “Migukin”) that are not consistent with any widely used past or present romanization system: not McCune-Reischauer, nor the 1959, 1984, or 2000 South Korean systems.
(On a side note, regarding Brendon’s mention of Connie Chung’s overcompensatory mispronunciation of “Beijing,” when I was a kid, I pedantically pronounced “Hyundai” as “hyoon-dye,” thinking that as a foreign word, the way it was spelled should logically follow some kind of convention. Indeed, a Korean word written like that in rigorous adherence to one or another established system would in fact be pronounced as “hyoon-dye.”)
Regarding the overall choice of “Migukin” (or “Migugin”), why not? It just reflects a common secondary usage of ??¸????¸ to refer to any non-Russian-looking (or even Russian-looking?) white person in Korea. How many times have I, as a Canadian visitor to Korea, heard a child saying, “????§?, ??¸????¸??´??¼” (”Mom, look! It’s an American!”)? I think I tried all of once to correct one and say, “???????????”, ?º??????¤?????Œ??…?????¤,” which, by the way, is in its -?…??????¤ ending, far too formal a manner of speaking to a child, but as a foreigner and within earshot of the parents, I wanted to be polite. After that one time, I just couldn’t be bothered.
…Er, not to mention that there is an implicit confusion of nationality with ethnicity in using “Migugin” to only refer to Caucasians. (Is it used for African Americans as well?) If I were, say, a Chinese Canadian, would I be wrongly described as a “Migugin” or wrongly described as a “Jungugin”/”Chungugin”?
Sorry, more mistypes:
That should be “Junggugin”/”Chunggugin” with three g’s….
Well this clinches it: I’m going to start a website called “mikwuk.in.com” and mock, skewer, fisk, and otherwise ridicule everything that comes down the pipeline from migukin.com.
I have that much free time.
not me old boy…i’m gonna stay right here and bumgarner everything passing through the marmot’s hole.
Well this clinches it: I?€™m going to start a website called ?€œmikwuk.in.com?€? and mock, skewer, fisk, and otherwise ridicule everything that comes down the pipeline from migukin.com.
I have that much free time.
Comment by Kushibo from ?€” July 1, 2005 (Friday) @ 11:13 am
That would be like the Special Olympics
Lighten up, lux bearer. I was being sarcastic.
(For the record, “Lighten up, lux bearer” was supposed to be a pun; don’t take it too seriously).
explaining a pun
?…??…??…??…??…??…? ?…??…??…??…??…??…?
you doing that for bumgarner and yourself?
thought i’d just open up a crack of back story and politics as they have been involved in the romanization of korean language. this is from Dr. Lee at SNU’s korean department.
“Here are some behind-the-scene stories of Romanization although belated. Unlike the western hemisphere, we here in Korea still wrap up the last chores of the spring semester till the end of June. I have read through the long thread of Romanization at once only in this weekend and find some areas where I have to comment since I happen to be the only one participant in two committees both in 1984 and 2000. I hesitatingly reveal these stories which might help to understand the background of recent development and resolve some misconceptions in the thread of Romanization.
1) First of all, I have been an advocate of MR system or equivalent. In 1984 I was lucky enough to keep this position although I was the only one against two other senior scholars who favored 1959 MoE system. (In the Blue House, Dr. Sohn, Presidential Aide in education strongly influenced the committee under the Academy of Science to internationalize [=take foreigners?€™ favorite system] Romanization before the 1986 Asian Games.)
After the decision to take almost all skeleton from MR system, Prof. Kim Wanjin, my mentor, in return proposed a modification of ?€?s?€™ into ?€?sh?€™ before ?€?i?€™ (without mentioning the subsequent possible changes before ?€?y?€™). It could be a sort of saving his face in front of the former student but I do not think that it was a necessary modification. There was also another unnecessary, trivial modification of using hyphens.
2) Because of continuous appeal to critical weakness in MR system, that is, diacritical marks, the National Academy of the Korean Language (NAKL) organized committees two times in 1997 and 1999. The first project was dismissed without any result due to strong oppositions including an issue against the choice of ?€?e?€™ for ?…“.
I was invited from the second series of ten meetings as one of three scholars. Their opinions are diversified in the first several meetings but it was very decisive that the government wanted to get rid of diacritics. Although I again tried to save basic skeleton of MR system, NAKL was destined to change the 1984 system very visibly. (In the Ministry of Culture and Tourism, Mr. Oh who became the Deputy Minister later was very eager to obtain some new achievement to be promoted. I later heard this story which was unlucky to advocates of MR system! However, I would like to point out that there was not any ?€?nationalistic?€™ intent to expel MR on purpose as Prof. McCann suspected.)
However, please do not get angry with this silly story. I myself was quite upset but in the last tenth meeting I proposed to include ?€œrule 3.8: transliteration?€? in the 2000 NAKL system. The following table is presented to understand the merit of my proposal which was a great salvage out of otherwise another meaningless re-change from almost MR (1984) to quasi-MoE (2000).
|sound-graph cor.| ?€™pronounceability?€™ |no diacritics |_transliteration__|_transcription__|_computerization
1954 Yale system | O | X | O
________________|________________|____________|_______________
1959 MoE system | O | X | O
________________|________________|____________|_______________
1984 AoS [=MR] | X | O | X
________________|________________|____________|_______________
2000 NAKL system| O | ? | O
This table shows the evaluation of the NAKL system is not too bad, mainly because the provision of transliteration is included by me. I realize this effect more clearly while I draw this tableau.
Originally I wanted to use the MR system instead of introducing a new system. I always believe the Yale system should be used for linguistic transliteration but it has its defect of awkward spelling even to the Westerners to be used for ordinary purposes. If any new system would be invented like the 2000 NAKL, it must be the third one (besides Yale and MR) that makes the situation too crowded. That was my reason to oppose to the draft of the 2000 NAKL system prepared by the ninth meeting.
Along the meetings we had discussed how to write names on the passport. Unlike totalitarian China we decided to respect the individual writing of their old names as used so far especially for those who had published articles and books. (In line with this treatment many companies like Samsung, Hyundai, Daewoo may keep their brand value in the capitalistic world.) We knew Korea is not the same as China also in her enforcing power to the world even in the case of introducing a new Romanization system. I easily predict the future of using at least three systems: Yale in linguistics, MR in Koreanology (at a minimum of usage to decipher the previous writings) or more, NAKL in all others. I do not see any wrongdoing in this situation since we are in the free world but un-unified country. Only problem is one has to be clever enough to shift from one system to another depending on the context.”
Sang-Oak Lee
Dep?€™t of Korean
Seoul National Univ.
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