By Oranckay
Marmot?????s Hole Guest Blogger
While visiting Saipan, Japanese Emperor Akihito made a surprise visit to a memorial there honoring Koreans killed during World War II, having been brought to the island as military conscripts in the Japanese military or as forced laborers. It is significant that he went to the Korean memorial at all and but also notable that he did so unannounced .
The Saipan Tribune, which naturally has the most detailed coverage of what happened, says Akihito was headed back to his hotel when his limousine suddenly pulled over in front of the memorial and that “no cameras were present.”
Saipan’s Korean Peace Memorial (thanks to DongA Ilbo)
One might imagine two possible reasons why he chose not to let the world know he would visit the Korean memorial, and indeed both could have been a factor. According to the Guardian, some in Japan’s Imperial Household Agency opposed the emperor’s visit to Saipan altogether, but “relented when the emperor expressed a strong desire to go.” One Korean story quotes the agency as saying the decision was made to visit the Korean memorial only a day in advance and that even the Japanese consulate was unaware of what was going to happen. Then there is the issue of the island’s Korean residents association, which earlier had demanded that the Japanese emperor visit the memorial but (quite naturally) “found the Japanese consulate on the island unresponsive,” among other things. You can imagine the many Koreans, some welcoming but some there in protest, who would have been waiting had it been part of his official itinerary.
This is not the first time Akihito has surprised people in relation to Korea. Right-wingers in Japan have long denied the obvious - that Japan’s royal family originated from Korea - but now the only people they can lie to on that one is themselves because at his 68th birthday press conference the emperor came out and declared he has Korean blood. At the time he also said he “believes it was fortunate to see such culture and skills transmitted from Korea to Japan,” a country you may recall where many believe Korea was done a big favor when Japan colonized and “modernized” it, and where many people were far too ready to believe that Japan had the oldest civilization in Asia before that lie got, well, “buried.”
Unfortunately his visit to the Korean memorial in Saipan is not getting the attention you would think it deserves in the Korean media. Surely over time it will be remembered in the overall timeline of Korea-Japan relations but the story has only been mentioned pretty matter-of-factly and while headlines are always sensational the title of DongA Ilbo’s story takes issue with the visit, saying it was “4 minutes and secretive” and that he only did “silent prayer” (???????). SBS said it was a “memorial visit without apology.” Overall, however, the coverage has been calm, there just hasn’t been much.
60 Comments
Hey oranckay, if you needed a place to blog, why didn’t you just say so? I could have let you review the latest Mr. Cho article in the KH.
That, by the way, was a joke. Glad to see you back to posting, wherever you decide to do so.
Speaking of Mr. Cho, I haven’t seen any of his articles in a while…did the netizens finally run him out of town?
I expect to be back up and running (yet again) soon, thanks Nomad.
It is too bad the Emperor doesn?€™t take a more active role in Japanese politics because he is a very shrewd politician I think. He has demonstrated this with his visit to the Korean shrine on Saipan and by declaring that he has Korean ancestors. There is a seemingly never ending stream of Japanese that go to the memorial on Saipan where the Japanese (and some Koreans) ran off the cliffs into the ocean rather than surrender to the Americans and they have Shinto priests that offer prayers for them and there are plaques commemorating the bravery and sacrifice of the people that committed suicide there. Interestingly enough, there are a few Korean stone too but they are much more obscure and despite the fact that they are in the same area as the much larger and more elaborate Japanese stones, the Japanese do not seem to notice them. The main Korean peace memorial is located a good distance from the Japanese memorial and tends to get Korean visitors with a smaller mix of non-Koreans as well. When I was there, I did not see any Japanese visitors at the Korean memorial.
I think his visit to the Korean memorial was in very good taste, particularly the fact that it was not announced or used as some sort of grandstanding event as he could have had he wanted to. My impression of it is that he wanted to express sincere respect for the Koreans that were made to work on Japanese plantations and eventually died as a result of being forced to work for the empire. In order to do that I am sure he wanted to avoid protestors of either Japanese or Korean origin. I think it is great that he recognizes the fact that Koreans bore a significant burden in the expansion and later defense of the empire. I am not a fan of Japan but his actions just strike me as being very sincere and respectful and nothing more.
i agree, although anyone with an interest on either side of the equation will want to put their own spin on it and impute the emperor’s “true” intentions.
This is not the first time Akihito has surprised people in relation to Korea. Right-wingers in Japan have long denied the obvious - that Japan?€™s royal family originated from Korea - but now the only people they can lie to on that one is themselves because at his 68th birthday press conference the emperor came out and declared he has Korean blood.
Akihito surprised Koreans with his statement, not Japanese. You might think that right wingers in Japan go around denying that the mother of a Japanese Emperor more than 1000 years ago was not Korean, but that is just not the case. This has been public knowledge since the NIHONSHOKI was written (720 AD), and regular people came to know of it as literacy spread. Indeed, it was widely known and spread about by the Japanese government during the Japanese administration of Korea to show affinity between Korea and Japan, and to help legitimize Japans control of the penninsula in the eyes of Koreans.
I think you have adopted the Korean worldview and that you are essentially projecting what you would think Koreans would do in the same situation, and trying to apply it to the Japanese.
Please try to diversify yours sources, particularly in regards to the Korea-Japan relationship, as the is very little intellectual diversity to be found in Korea on this issue.
[...] versy on marmot Oranckay, who is guestblogging on marmot wrote a post about the Japanese Emperors visit to Saipan. There was one par [...]
My exact sentiments, James. The Emperor’s visit was indeed in good taste. He was invited by some Koreans in Saipan, and he graciously accepted. Although I doubt this would have made the hard liners in both countries happy or satisfied.
shakuhachi,
The story I linked has the emperor quoting the “Chronicles of Japan,” which perhaps you need to be reminded IS the Nihon Shoki, so yes, it was “widely known.”
It is also widely known that Japan cannot have had a civilization that is 600,000 years old, just like it is widely known the moon is not made of cheese, and yet that utter lunacy ended up in textbooks. (See link in post). Think what you think about what I think about Japan, but a country where such nonsense ends up part of its understanding of itself (either because it is believed or because it is left unchallenged, which in indeed might have been the case with Japan) just has to have some serious problems facing up to the obvious when it comes to history. Korea did not teach me that.
What was “spread about by the Japanese government during the Japanese administration of Korea to show affinity between Korea and Japan, and to help legitimize Japans control of the peninsula in the eyes of Koreans” was not that the Japanese emperor had Korean blood. It was the “??????æ??æœ??ºœ(?ªª)” that was taught, essentially that Japan once ruled Kaya, Silla, and Paekche and now things were returning to what they always were. The implication, then, would have been that since Japan ruled Paekche and (part) of the royal family came from Paekche, then the royal who came from there, well, he wasn’t really all that Korean. I’m way beyond my area of expertise on the subject, admittedly, but it was certainly not “hey Koreans, our emperor is one of you!”
What little I do understand of Japanese society leads me to think that often lies fabricated and spread by extreme nationalists are just not openly challenged and are not widely accepted, at least not in full, and so the impression the outsider is left with is that everyone believes the lie in its entirety. I was impressed with the way less than 0.2 percent of Japanese schools adopted the history textbook produced by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform the last time around. Fortunately the Japanese public is not as stupid as some on the far right think it is.
Note that the Guardian (for “diversity,” of course) link says that when the emperor said he had mixed blood it came “to the delight of South Korea and, no doubt, the silent fury of many Japanese nationalists.” Surely the Guardian must be brainwashed by Koreans to have suggested Japanese nationalists were upset by hearing what was already “widely known” from their emperor.
Oranckay, I gotta say, your last comment hits the nail right on the head. People here are more willing to let wingnuts keep screaming, and simply ignore them, then to tell the wingnuts outright to shut up. Japan’s government’s attitude is less a product of the people’s attitudes than it is a product of a small but active minority, and a large but mostly indifferent majority who are too busy getting drunk, sending text messages to each other, and building high-end electronics to really care about what kinds of stupid shit their leaders and their wingnuts are saying (which is basically where I find myself as an American these days).
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It is also widely known that Japan cannot have had a civilization that is 600,000 years old, just like it is widely known the moon is not made of cheese, and yet that utter lunacy ended up in textbooks. (See link in post). Think what you think about what I think about Japan, but a country where such nonsense ends up part of its understanding of itself (either because it is believed or because it is left unchallenged, which in indeed might have been the case with Japan) just has to have some serious problems facing up to the obvious when it comes to history. Korea did not teach me that.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at here. Archaeological fraud is a problem the world over, although admittedly this fraud in Japan was particularly egregious. But simply identifying blind nationalism as the cause for the length of time this fraud was able to perpetuate itself seems like over simplification to me. Rather it was a lack of oversight, peer review and scientific dating that enabled this fraud. Obviously this has been a wake up call for the Japanese scientific establishment, who have no excuse for their sloppiness. It is also telling that it was a Japanese newspaper that broke the story, and that rather than trying to justify it or cover it up, moves are being made to repair the damage caused by the fraud.
The above link also makes it clear that the motivations of the archeologist involved were personal, and not motivated by nationalist sentiment (although why a ‘nationalist’ would want to falsify their nations history is beyond me).
Despite my long association with Japanese people, this is the first time I have heard anyone claim that human life was in Japan 600 000 years ago. If I were speaking with a Korean, then I would probably know in 5 minutes how long they think human civilization has been on the Korean peninsula - without asking. Oranckay, I think you have a highly exaggerated sense of the level of nationalism in Japan. For that, you are more than 60 years too late.
What was ?€œspread about by the Japanese government during the Japanese administration of Korea to show affinity between Korea and Japan, and to help legitimize Japans control of the peninsula in the eyes of Koreans?€? was not that the Japanese emperor had Korean blood. It was the ?€œ??????æ??æœ??ºœ(?ªª)?€? that was taught, essentially that Japan once ruled Kaya, Silla, and Paekche and now things were returning to what they always were. The implication, then, would have been that since Japan ruled Paekche and (part) of the royal family came from Paekche, then the royal who came from there, well, he wasn?€™t really all that Korean. I?€™m way beyond my area of expertise on the subject, admittedly, but it was certainly not ?€œhey Koreans, our emperor is one of you!?€?
The issue of the ‘Emperors Blood’ is too arcane, anyway. There is no telling just how much of a genetic relationship modern Koreans have to people of paekche. During the Japanese administration there was also the theory of the ‘common ancestor’ promoted by some Japanese and pro Japanese Koreans. After the end of WW2, this idea was ridiculed by ‘Korean Nationalists’ who wanted to distance Korea from Japan. Interestingly, these days I often hear Koreans and Japanese speculate that they might have a common ancestor.
What little I do understand of Japanese society leads me to think that often lies fabricated and spread by extreme nationalists are just not openly challenged and are not widely accepted, at least not in full, and so the impression the outsider is left with is that everyone believes the lie in its entirety. I was impressed with the way less than 0.2 percent of Japanese schools adopted the history textbook produced by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform the last time around. Fortunately the Japanese public is not as stupid as some on the far right think it is.
The so called extreme nationalist dont need to be openly challenged since they cant get any coverage in the press, and have negligible political power. There is nothing wrong with the books produced by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform, and I challenge you to bring up even one ‘historical distortion’ from the books. If the distortions are so flagrant, then you should have no trouble finding them.
Note that the Guardian (for ?€œdiversity,?€? of course) link says that when the emperor said he had mixed blood it came ?€œto the delight of South Korea and, no doubt, the silent fury of many Japanese nationalists.?€? Surely the Guardian must be brainwashed by Koreans to have suggested Japanese nationalists were upset by hearing what was already ?€œwidely known?€? from their emperor.
So the Guardian has mind reading abilities along with their talent for fantastical conjecture? Good to see they actually went to the trouble of mind reading the Japanese nationalists, rather than using the passe practice of asking them what they actually think. Again, Japanese nationalists would not be upset at something that they know and accept as a fact. I know that is common knowledge in Korea that Japan never acknowledges contributions language, religion or technology from Korea, but I have a Japanese childrens history comic book that shows the process very clearly right in front of me.
Japan is not uptight like Korea. You could tell a Japanese that you think Dokto belongs to Korea and you could still maintain a relationship with them. The fact is that Korea is just not as central to Japanese history as Japan is to Korea’s history. The vast majority of Japanese do not give any thought at all to Korea, which is where ‘extreme right wing’ conspiracy theories about the Japanese fall flat.
I never liked his grandpappy, but I want to say, “Akihitoneun nae chingoo.”
It’s ever so amusing to see Shaku’s posts. He writes, “Japan is not uptight like Korea. You could tell a Japanese that you think Dokto belongs to Korea and you could still maintain a relationship with them.”
Although I agree with his statement, I find it rather amusing that he himself is an outlier of his own hypothesis.
Then he writes, “The fact is that Korea is just not as central to Japanese history as Japan is to Korea?€™s history.”
Um. I think he meant to write, “Japanese aren’t as obsessed about Korea as Koreans are about Japan.” Ahh… but then again, what do I know? We all know here that classical chinese literature, advanced pottery, metallurgy, animal domestication, buddhism all went to Japan off from the Shangtung peninsula completely bypassing that unknown peninsula that happens to block Japan. Maybe the Japanese Sun Goddess gave Chinese merchants gigantic red cranes to fly to Kyoto.
“The vast majority of Japanese do not give any thought at all to Korea, which is where ?€?extreme right wing?€™ conspiracy theories about the Japanese fall flat.”
Again, I agree with Shaku. But then we’ll always have him driving around those obnoxious vans trying to be an individual in the sea of complacent sheep.
You know, before Marmot started that gravatar thing, I used to really like GTO.
Isn’t the Tokyo governor Ishihara set to be the next PM of Japan?
Isn’t he an extreme right wing nationalist? This is “negligible power”? The next PM of Japan? Now this guy has been around for a long long time. How he has mananged to stay in an elected position year after year if the extreme nationalists have “negligible power” in Japan. Yeah, that must be it, “negligible power”, so much so that the Japanese Parliament can’t even pass a simple official apology to Korea for colonization due to stiff oposition from the “negligible” nationalists (the last time the bill tried to pass and failed - 1995).
I don’t believe that Japan is being taken over by wacko nutcase militarists anytime soon. Nor do I believe that Japan’s nationalists have negligible power. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
shak:
you accused oranckay of lacking in the diversity of source (”korean worldview” and etc), so he (she? i’m a newbie here) put up a Guardian article as a non-Korean source, and then you start whining Guardin sucks!?
there are so many legit ways to stick it to Koreans for their ways, but your posts often (always?) seem to go into hyper-generalized Korean this, Japan that. How often do *you* take surveys in these countries (i assume it’s one of those mind-reading surveys, not like the crappy Guardian ones)?
you sure you don’t have some Koreans in your ancestry?
A tip of the hat to both Shakuhachi and Orankay for a highly informative exchange. As regards the insinuation that nationalists would not “invent” any history that could not be backed up by fact (Shakuhachi), my readings suggest that many third world nationalists and first world ultranationalists from both the right and left do just that. And indeed, they view “history” not as an unbiased investigation of historical fact, but rather as a socialization tool for molding the “nation” in their own image.
lirelou:
“third world,” “nationalists,” “first world,” “ultranationalist,” “third world nationalists,” “first world ultranationalist”
i’d like to read your definitions of each word/phrase quoted above from your post, if you would.
I wonder what, if any, influence the Emperor?€™s wife had to do with his decision to visit the Korean peace memorial. I know she had a budding career in the Japanese foreign service before she married him and I know she is Harvard educated and would like to be more involved (at least I have read that) in Japanese foreign policy. I do not suppose there is any way for us to know and even if the question were to be asked officially, I doubt there would be an honest answer given but I still wonder.
There were two items in Shakuhachi?€™s comments that I take issue with. The first is that he seems to insist on referring to the period between 1909 and 1945 ?€?Japanese Administration?€™. The issue I have with that is that it sounds too sterile, too much like the Koreans were unable to manage their own affairs so Japan stepped in to set them straight. There are undoubtedly hordes of people that would contrastingly refer to that same period in time as the rape, plunder and pillage of Korea by Japan. I fully understand the justifications that they would have for referring to it in such a way but it seems a bit inflammatory to me. I would prefer, instead, to refer to it as the period of Japanese colonization, occupation or even aggression of Korea. It may seem like a small thing but the term ?€?administration?€™ rubs me the wrong way.
Secondly, he questions why nationalists would want to falsify archeological findings to make their country look better and how related modern Koreans are to the people of Paekche. History is replete with examples of nationalists ?€?discovering?€™ things that make their country look better: Sir Arthur Woodward and the Piltdown man; Hitler and the Aryan people; North Korea claims to have the grave site of T?€™angeun the mythical first Korean and descendant of a god and there are more. Certainly it is not beyond a Nationalist from any country, Japan included, to make similar claims. Given the fact that it is highly unlikely that ALL the inhabitants of Paekche escaped to Japan when it fell to Shilla (and if they did, wouldn?€™t that further validate claims that Koreans make that a significant part of Japanese culture came from these Koreans who escaped to Japan?) meaning that the majority of them remained here in the Korean gene pool and were able to spread those genes to current generations.
He makes a lot of other very insightful comments.
Secondly, he questions why nationalists would want to falsify archeological findings to make their country look better…
Actually, I can see why some might want to falsify their countries history to make it seem more greater than it really is. But from my point of view, that kind of ‘nationalist’ would actually be a traitor to the country, for selling a false bill of goods to the people.
There is a redundant ‘more’ in the above post by me.
Agreed-there is not much to say about Hitler or North Korea but in the case of Sir Andrew Woodward-he initially became famous for discovering the ‘first man’ and because it was in Great Britain, the obvious implication is that Britain was then claimed to be the birthplace of mankind-that is until the skull was proven to be not an ancient human skull but that of an animal.
I wrote:Crown Princess Michiko may be too beleaguered with pressure to have a son to take time to bug His Majesty about foreign relations.I clearly meant Crown Princess Masako. Michiko is the Empress, not the Crown Princess, and at the age of 71, it would be absolutely cruel to get her to crank out another son. Not to mention that it would require a great deal of expensive cloning technology from Korea.
“The issue I have with that is that it sounds too sterile, too much like the Koreans were unable to manage their own affairs so Japan stepped in to set them straight.”
James, you haven’t been following all the threads that are related to this subject. That’s exactly what he has been and is saying. It’s not the “colonization period”, but it’s “education and aid period” (Japanese man’s burden?), I guess.
” The fact is that Korea is just not as central to Japanese history as Japan is to Korea?€™s history.”
Disagree completely. Just because Japan ignores and relegates Korean history’s central role in Japanese history into dust bin, doesn’t mean that Korean history did not play a central role in shaping Japan’s history. Up to the renaisance period, Korea played a huge role in transferring Chinese culture and Budhism and technology to Japan. Japanese kidnapping of much admired and valued Korean artisans helped Japan to develop their pottery industry. There were times when Choson Korea refused to trade with Japan, and it sometimes lead to Japanese armed attacks against Korea. Not to mention how much Korea contributed in populating Japan throughout various stages of Japanese history. Korean history not central to Japanese history - only a Japanese nationalist will claim this.
Japan’s history is central to Korean history today largely because of Japan’s fairly recent 35 years of colonizations which has left a long legacy in Korea. Plus the fact that Korea has suffered constant attacks from Japan throughout history has also something to do with it. Turn the clock back to 1870, and up to that time, Koreans would have told you Japanese history just isn’t as central to Korea, as Korean history is to Japan.
Plus the fact that economic standings have a lot to do as well.
For the past 150+ years, Japan has been concentrating all their attention on the West. Naturally with Korea being looked down upon as a poor and culturally inferior nation, Japan has been quietly trying to distance themselves from (but not completely denying their origins, as Shak said) anything to do with Korea.
But is that how Koreans see it? Over the past 12 years I have heard nothing but complaints from Koreans about how the Japanese raped and plundered Korea with the intent to completely erradicate the Korean economy. You are correct, I have not been able to pay very close attention to all the postings but the term administration is devoid of any sort feeling. I am sure the French do not refer to the time between 1941 and 1945 as the German administration period. The point is particularly poigniant given the fact that he challenges the Oranckay to find untruths in the contested Japanese text book-one of the main issues that the governements of both South Korea and China have taken with it is that the fact that it portrays that period of time as a time when Japan was anything but agressive and abusive of its neighbors. I am not advocating that they proclaim total guilt and claim that they were soley responsible for the agression in Asia but I do feel that to call it a simple administrative period marginalizes the pain and suffering the Koreans et al went through as a result of Japanese occupation.
I see what he is saying that that image of Japan that Koreans et al take offense at is caused by a small minority of the population while the rest of the population is content to quietly disagree.
Disagree completely. Just because Japan ignores and relegates Korean history?€™s central role in Japanese history into dust bin, doesn?€™t mean that Korean history did not play a central role in shaping Japan?€™s history. Up to the renaisance period, Korea played a huge role in transferring Chinese culture and Budhism and technology to Japan.
I said it once but I might as well say it again for you. The flow of culture and technology, often via Korea, is not ignored by the Japanese. It is taught to elementary school kids. Tomorrow I will scan a Japanese history comic book to prove to you that it is not covered up.
Japanese kidnapping of much admired and valued Korean artisans helped Japan to develop their pottery industry.
Lets be honest here. Koreans have never admired people that work with their hands. Such work was deemed to be lowly. The Japanese on the otherhand have long valued the skills of artisans, and even manual laborers. Koreans say that those artisans were kidnapped but it could be that they just got a better offer (and people that actually appreciate skilled artisans). Perhaps they were kidnapped - but the truth of that is lost in the mists of time.
For the past 150+ years, Japan has been concentrating all their attention on the West. Naturally with Korea being looked down upon as a poor and culturally inferior nation, Japan has been quietly trying to distance themselves from (but not completely denying their origins, as Shak said) anything to do with Korea.
Japan never had to consider Korea as a poor or culturally inferior nation, as Korea was merely a vassal state of China. Even Hideyoshi’s invasion of Korea was actually an invasion of China that took place on the peninsula because the Koreans did not want independence from China. Numerous envoys from Hideyoshi’s court sent to negotiate with the Koreans were rejected by the Korean King (who ruled Korea at the sufferance of the Emperor of China).
I also have to wonder if you mean to call Japan bad for ‘looking down’ on Korea. Dont you know that Confucianism in Korea has meant that Korea saw itself as number 2 after China, and looked down on Japan as inferior?
I also find it funny that Koreans like you will harp on Hideyoshi’s invasion but pretend that two major invasions of Japan launched by the Mongols from Korea, with their eager Korean servants making up the bulk of the Army, didnt even happen.
Why are Koreans so obsessive about seeking gratitude from other people? The descendants of the Koreans that helped Japan in its classical period all live in Japan, not Korea.
It was the ?€œ??????æ??æœ??ºœ(?)?€? that was taught, essentially that Japan once ruled Kaya, Silla, and Paekche and now things were returning to what they always were.
NO. It was the ?€œæ???®®??Œ?????? ?€? that was taught, essentially that Japan and Korea had a same origin. And it was certainly ?€œhey Koreans, our emperor is one of you!?€?
æ???®®??Œ?????? means like Japanese and Koreans have same origin.
The theory was used in Korea under Japanese rule to make Koreans feeling better.
it’s funny now Koreans really support æ???®®??Œ??????.
-the emperor came out and declared he has Korean blood.
What Akihito meant was, Emperor Kanmu’s mother Takano no Niigasa was descendant of King of Baekje.
Yes she was 10th descendant of the King.
And a lot of Korean kings had mothers from Mongol which has been somehow ignored in Korean history.
“I said it once but I might as well say it again for you. The flow of culture and technology, often via Korea, is not ignored by the Japanese. It is taught to elementary school kids. Tomorrow I will scan a Japanese history comic book to prove to you that it is not covered up.”
I didn’t say they covered it up. You need to go back and re-read what I wrote. Manga books? Woopi big deal. Nice wicked avatar by the way.
“Koreans say that those artisans were kidnapped but it could be that they just got a better offer (and people that actually appreciate skilled artisans). Perhaps they were kidnapped - but the truth of that is lost in the mists of time.”
Grudging admittance here? This is after what you’re really trying to say, that Koreans were not important to Japan’s history (sort of like saying China had no central role in Korean history). Because that would certainly ruin your romanticism with ideal Japan and contradict your mission to spread the word that Koreans suck.
“Koreans say that those artisans were kidnapped but it could be that they just got a better offer (and people that actually appreciate skilled artisans)”
I’m surprised that you didn’t say those artisans suck and they were just given good jobs by Japanese who wanted to be generous because Japan at that time just didn’t think much of Koreans as other than mere vassal servants of China. LOL. Just kidding. OK, tell me, when and how did these mass voluntary immigrations of these artisans happen? I want to know. I’m serious.
“I also have to wonder if you mean to call Japan bad for ?€?looking down?€™ on Korea. Dont you know that Confucianism in Korea has meant that Korea saw itself as number 2 after China, and looked down on Japan as inferior?”
Can you point to where I wrote “Japan bad for looking down on Korea”? All I pointed to, was the reality. Now if you can put away those hate blinkers for a while, point it to me what I wrote is wrong about the Japanese admiration of the West and their distancing of themselves from Asian roots which serves them no good purpose. I didn’t say and did not imply that Japan was bad because of that. I may even add, Korea is the same.
“I also find it funny that Koreans like you will harp on Hideyoshi?€™s invasion but pretend that two major invasions of Japan launched by the Mongols from Korea, with their eager Korean servants making up the bulk of the Army, didnt even happen”
“Koreans like me” can pretend didn’t even happen because it didn’t happen. The Kamikaze saved Japan, didn’t you know? By the way, nice of you to try to avert the fact that Korea was conquered by the Mongols and that it was the Mongols who hatched the plans for Japan. They were never good at sailing so they needed some Korean input, I guess. LOL.
“Why are Koreans so obsessive about seeking gratitude from other people?”
I wasn’t “seeking gratitutde from other people”. I only pointed out your flaws in your theories that Korea didn’t play an important role in Japan’s history because it was just a vassal state of China and/or servants to Mongols. Because you see, you can be the vassal state of China and slaves of Mongols, and still have its own history.
And a lot of Korean kings had mothers from Mongol which has been somehow ignored in Korean history. Ignored? This was a point driven home several times by different Korean history profs of mine at Yonsei.
I didn?€™t say they covered it up. You need to go back and
re-read what I wrote. Manga books? Woopi big deal.
Manga style history books are prefered by children.
Comparing to the hate-drawings in the Korean subway station,
the Japanese history manga books for children are far more positive.
Japanese kidnapping of much admired and valued Korean artisans
helped Japan to develop their pottery industry.
That’s written in Japanese school textbooks.
The Korean pottery crafters were given Samurai rank.
They were allowed to carry Katana.
15th descendant of one of Korean crafters.
http://www16.ocn.ne.jp/~c-jukan/pro.html
Disagree completely. Just because Japan ignores and relegates
Korean history?€™s central role in Japanese history into dust bin,
Which book are you talking about?
I also have to wonder if you mean to call Japan bad
for ?€?looking down?€™ on Korea. Dont you know that
Confucianism in Korea has meant that Korea saw itself
as number 2 after China, and looked down on Japan as inferior?
Less nationalistic Korean scholars also call that
“Little Sinocentrism” ?°??¸???æ€?æ?³
China is father, Korea is older brother, Japan is younger brother.
Why Koreans call Japanese emperor “King” is because only
emperor for them is Chinese emperor.
They are still under the ????¤·?§??º?.
Korea was conquered by the Mongols and that it was
the Mongols who hatched the plans for Japan.
That’s exactly what Korean school textbook describes.
Accroding to ????º???² (history of koryo 1451)
?…??®?13(1272) Korean king ?¿??????? demanded Qubilai to invade Japan
while mongolian bureaucrats suggesting to go ????®? South Song.
Koryo built 900 ships whithin 6 months.
????º???²??€??? describes that Korean general strongly protested
drawing troops.
????º???²??€??? describes Korean general kidnapped 200 children from
Tsushima(demado) and gave them to Korean King and Queen.
æ???“®?¨??”??®? describes the islanders of Tsushima and Sanuki were
massacred or kidnapped, women were gathered and holed their
hands to pass the rope.
As you know ????º???² is æ???² the official historical record in Korea.
That describes Korean King demanded the invasion.
æ???“®?¨??”??®? describes the islanders of Tsushima and Sanuki were
massacred or kidnapped, women were gathered and holed their
hands to pass the rope.The rope through the holes in their hands was a Mongol thing, wasn’t it?
Asking, not saying.
The rope through the holes in their hands was a Mongol thing, wasn?€™t it?
According to æ??æœ?æ?¸?´€?¤?智?¸??ºŒ?¹´?´€
King of Baekje ?±??’? holed hands of ??¼?®¤????¿¡ and passed leather rope as punishment.
According to Choson.com Japanese edition Apr24 2002
An American witnessed in China near Domangang that about
100 North Korean asylums include children were taken by
North Korean polices.
They had wire through their hands, rings through their nose.
http://japanese.chosun.com/sit.....00001.html
gorea san, that is great information. Do you have any links for it? Dont worry, I can read Japanese.
Shakuhachi -
I would love to see that translated into English - why don’t you do it and post it for all of us to read.
The rope through the holes in their hands was a Mongol thing, wasn?€™t it?
According to æ??æœ?æ?¸?´€?¤?智?¸??ºŒ?¹´?´€ King of Baekje ?±??’? holed hands of ??¼?®¤????¿¡ and passed leather rope as punishment.When did this King P’ungjang reign? I can’t find him on the lists.According to Choson.com Japanese edition Apr24 2002
An American witnessed in China near Domangang that about 100 North Korean asylums include children were taken by North Korean polices. They had wire through their hands, rings through their nose.Holy fuck! Really?! That’s absolutely horrific. Seriously. The idea that something like that could occur in the 21st century…
So these people had their hands and nose drilled while they were still in China?! How can we tolerate something like that from a major economic partner? People keep beating up on South Korea for its “Sunshine Policy,” but it’s China that allows and even participates in these atrocities and props up Pyongyang. That’s the reason for my indignation.
Lets be honest here. Koreans have never admired people that work with their hands.
True, but an essay by Gregory Henderson pointed out an interesting irony:
The aristocrats, with their essays, histories, poetry and calligraphy, produced an enormous body of work mostly unread today. This work floats on a great cultural lake of music, dance, ceramics, furniture, folk and court painting done by poor or preliterate Koreans, almost all of it commonly seen, much a part of Korean life today. I believe that in no sophisticated culture is the folk component so high as in Korea.
And Kimbob, manga might be “Woopi big deal” to you, but considering that many thousands of impressionable young people read these, the effect they have shouldn’t be taken too lightly. The popularity of “On War”,(around 2001) which recast WWII in a very patriotic way, apparently had quite an impact, and was looked at in a NYT article (first one at the top) at the time. Also, not all readers of manga are kids, in Japan or Korea. (And speaking of manga, I’d forgotten about all the nationalism GTO drilled into his students)
Akihito has also spoken out against forcing teachers and students to stand for the national anthem and flag (thought by some to be remnants of Imperial Japan’s glory days), something some school districts have been enforcing (especially amongst their teachers) as of late.
And why do right-wing assumptions never get criticized in Japan? Could it be because of intimidation by right wing groups? (Of all of these links, this is the one to read first)
Good lordy,
If my memory serves me correctly, the Korean monarchy resisted the Mongol invasion for around 40 years. Consider that Korea was a small and was rather not the most powerful army that the Mongol calvary faced, it’s quite a feat. Again consider that Korea managed to do this when it was so close to the Mongol homeland, when the Mongols were able to annihilate far more powerful muslim kingdoms as well as christian kingdoms. Ahh! But of course, this 40 years of “protection” that Korea effectively gave Japan is not mentioned, because afterall, it’s not like Korean king was trying to protect Japan. (it just happened that way) Consider again, that Korea probably preferred that the Chinese Song, whom Koreans regarded as advanced and civilized–to be not annihilated. Afterall, if Mongols attack China, Mongols will demand military support from Korea AGAINST China. Maybe i’m spinning conspiracy theories here, since I don’t know too much about regional politics at that time. Again, maybe it happens that Korean king had to be Mongol’s “Yes” man once he surrendered to retain his power. And maybe making the Mongols dependent on Korea’s naval strength was a good strategy for survivorship.
Ahh. Usually medieval wars create massive famines and plagues which is the true killer of civilian population. If the Japanese army attacks and the Korean army defends by slash n burn techniques–and the Korean civilians suffer as a result, then maybe MAYBE they prefer to live in Japan where there are no marauding Japanese samurai army and no slash n burn Korean defenders.
Oh wait. But I’m stupid. I forget. I better go read some more volumes of GTO to learn from that Great Teacher Gorea.
Gorea-san, I’d also like to read what I presume is the Japanese translation of the aborted Mongol invasion of Japan. As for the island of Damado, we can argue that the island was not a part of Japan at that time - so the assertion that Japan was invaded goes out the window. Koreans claim Damado was a Korean land before the Japanese/Chinese/Korean pirates overran it to use it as a base to plunder and pillage Korean coastal towns and villages. Compare the frequencies of attacks and plunders by Japanese on Koreans versus the other way around. All of which I really don’t wish to get into because that is not my main point which is mainly a reply to Shak’s post. My point is this in which Shak and others can wish it will go away but cannot deny: Korea had a very central role in history of Japan, and trying to minimizing it and brushing it off is laughable.
“gorea san, that is great information. Do you have any links for it? Dont worry, I can read Japanese.”
Of course you can read Japanese. You need it to be able to read all those Japanese nationalist texts so that you can spouse off here about how Japan administered Korea for the benefit of Koreans. LOL.
This is somewhat related to the topic at hand. My memory is very fuzzy. I recall reading some years back about a Western historian (or two?) who did research on the genealogy of Japanese noble families, not just the imperial family.
He/They found that a substantial number of Japanese noble families had Korean origins. As I recall the research result was banned from publication in Japan and the author(s) declared persona non grata.
Does this ring a bell with anyone? Or is it time to take my meds again?
When did this King P?€™ungjang reign? I can?€™t find him on the lists.
Correction.
It seemed ?±??’? didn’t become King.
He was prince of Baekje who lived in Japan as hostage.
He returned to Baekje later.
You need it to be able to read all those Japanese
nationalist texts so that you can spouse off here
about how Japan administered Korea for the benefit
of Koreans. LOL.
????º???² was written by Koreans in 15th centry.
Holy fuck! Really?!
Well, I added link.
http://japanese.chosun.com/sit.....00001.html
There may be English version.
But Korean newspaper web sites usually put different articles
between Hangul, English, Japanese and Chinese edition.
I’m not here to debate whether Tsushima was Korean or Japanese territory, although Koreans have always claimed the island. To me, I think it was neither. The island of Tsushima was a den of Japanese pirate’s nest who were known as the Waku. After I did a quick research, I found that the Koryo King under tributary conditions, indeed asked the Mongols to attack Tsushima to clear out the island of the pirate pests known as the waku’s who pillaged, murdered, and plundered Korean cities for next centuries.
The first raid by Waku was in 1223, on the south coast of Goryeo. The Japanese attacked Gumju. Two more attacks are recorded for 1226, and continued. If indeed Tsushima was Japan as you have said, then it is also reasonable to claim that when the Korean king asked the Mongols to invade Tsushima, it was done in self defense and from provacations of Japan - just like Japan started war with America by attacking Pearl Harbor.
You’ve failed to include this important little fact, but also you have left out the fact that Korea was left devastated by decades war against the invading Mongols who finally succeeded in taking over Korea as a tributary state. If I was ignorant of this little fact and I read your Japanese nationalist history who would have made General Tojo proud, I would have thought that the Koreans were allied with the Mongols. But really, count the agressions and damages that Japan committed against Korea and other countries versus how many times Korea “invaded” Japan. But seriously man, to imply that Korea was somehow threatning and damaging to Japan.. I roll my eyes.
Most of the Wokou originated from Tsushima (called the “island Wae” by the Koreans) and Hizen. Under diplomatic pressure from the Goryeo government, the Kamakura shogunate made an effort to keep seafaring military groups under control. In 1227 Mut?? Sukeyori, the shogunate’s commissioner in Kyushu, had ninety suspected brigands decapitated in front of a Goryeo envoy. In 1263, after Tsushima Wokou raided Ungjin, Japanese negotiators reconfirmed the policies of limiting trade and prohibiting piracy.
The period around the Mongol invasions of Japan were a low point for Wokou activity. This was partly due to the higher degree of military preparedness in Goryeo. They fortified Gumju in 1251 and in 1265, after entering into tribute relations with the Mongols, the powerful Sambyeolcho (?¸‰???æ??) was deployed to the southern provinces. The Kamakura shogunate, for its part, increased its authority in Kyushu and was better able to mobilise and control former Wokou groups against the threat of Mongol invasion.
As the Kamakura shogunate and Goryeo state both declined following the Mongol invasions, the Wokou again became active. In 1323, for example, a large-scale raid took place in Jeolla province. Raids such as this developed into full-scale pirate attacks by the end of the 14th century.
shakuhachi
This page contains scan pictures from the parts of ????º???²?€?
http://toron.pepper.jp/jp/kr/textbook/genkou.html
called the ?€œisland Wae?€? by the Koreans
Wae ?€ means Japan.
So Koreans recognize Tsushima has belonged to Japan.
Good.
Tsushima is small island and don’t have much land to farm.
Traditionaly, the islanders made living by trading and
Koryo blocked their trading which resulted the rise of the pirates.
Then Mongol invaded Koryo, killed and kidnapped a lot of people.
Some people who were not able to make living joined Wakou.
According to ?¸??®??®??Œ²28 (1446)
“Japanese were only 10 to 20% among Wakou.
Mostly were people from Koryo who pretended to be Japanese.”
?€Œ?€?ºº?¸?????¸€?ºŒ?€Œæœ???½?¹?æ°‘??®?‘??€æœ?æ???…??½œ?¹±?€?
In 1323, for example, a large-scale raid took place in Jeolla province.
The tsushima islanders must had deep grudge against Koryo.
“the islanders of Tsushima and Sanuki were
massacred or kidnapped, women were gathered and holed their
hands to pass the rope.”
” Korean general kidnapped 200 children from
Tsushima(demado) and gave them to Korean King and Queen.”
Kimbob, you are too ignorant of history to debate this, and so prejudiced against Japan that you refuse to moderate your stance despite being trounced time after time by myself and others.
shak cracks me.
still, though, interesting bits of history (or views of the history) that i wasn’t aware of come out when shak engages. thanks for that (and to gorea).
stick “up” in there - i need more coffee.
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Wow, Chebacca-Hachi is still flaming here…
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