One of the (many) quirks of Southern culture in the United States is the inablity of much of the population to distinguish between the pronunciation of the words “pin” and “pen”
It’s spooky when you know you should be able to do something, but you can feel your mind struggling to use parts that should be there but aren’t.
Well, there are lots of little cool quirks like that here in Korea, as well.
Among them is what I think of as The Pen Thing — not, of course, to be confused with The No Trashcan Thing, The Unsupervised Kid Thing or The Golf Thing.
When Americans are talking to someone, they might absent-mindedly doodle something with a pen. A Korean, meanwhile, does an exact (sometimes elaborate) twirling motion with any pen or pencil that might be floating about.
Also, one aspect of practical Konglishie is the fact that Korean’s don’t say “What?” they say “Why?” when someone gets their attention. So my students will often say, “Why?” instead of “What?” when I tell them to stop texting with their cellphone during the middle of class.
Eventually, I found myself saying “Why?” instead of “What?” as well. When I noticed I was doing it one a regular basis, it was one of those signs I was no longer an American living in Korea — I was an American expat.
Also, you find yourself saying, “Yeah, Yeah, Yeah” when talking to someone. This, of course, is the English mind adopting the “Yea, yea, yea” that Koreans use all the time.
Oh, yeah (or yea), Koreans also dig Rubik’s Cubes for some reason.
59 Comments
I once got called into the office of my hakwon to have a discussion about whether I could say the word “ten” instead of “tin” for 10.
So American Southerners are Koreans now?
This was hardly about “quirks of Korean culture” but inability of (some?) American southerners to distinguish between two vowels in their own language.
Okay, I promised to withhold criticism on this, but I’m going to call Shelton on this one. Shelton, this is not a criticism of the post per se (though the title is misleading), but simply a statement that this is just not suited to the Marmot brand.
It’s fine for Ahssa, which is the blog about a Korean newbie ESL teacher’s experiences in Korea, but not for Marmot, which is a highly informed but occasionally irreverent blog with a slightly conservative bent for people who want to keep with the political, social, and economic goings-on of Korea.
People flock to Marmot’s for that informed view and information, and then, according to their taste, they sample the menu to the right –
If they like Ahssa, they visit Ahssa and get that taste. If they like Plunge, they visit Plunge and get that taste. If they like Jodi, they visit Jodi and get some of that. But the Marmot brand remains the august and sought-after Marmot brand.
I’m not bashing you as a writer. I’m not even saying that I myself would be able to live up to the Marmot brand. But this is like Coke making New Coke and people wanting the Old Coke, which then had to be remarketed as Classic Coke.
No… better analogy: Mercedes-Benz making an economical compact car. There are great reasons for the existence of such small cars, but if I seek out a Mercedes-Benz, I’m seeking one out for reasons that are their antithesis.
I hadn’t noticed the why thing until you pointed that out. I do it too… yeah yeah yeah I do.
I understand and appriciate your comments.
In my writing, I often start off with one thing and then make a quick segway to the thing I want to talk about. That’s just the way I write.
Again, as I have said before, I am new here and am learning what you, the reader, what and don’t want. To date, I have viewed The Marmot’s Hole as a community newspaper — and as such it has space for a variety of things: features, lifestyles, hard news, what have you.
I often link to Ahssa! because I know what I’ve written on such subjects in the past and can call them up pretty quickly. If the general consenses of readers and The Marmot is that me linking to Ahssa! so much is a problem, I will ease off on it a bit.
I will also make a concerted effort keep my posts exclusively in the realm of Korea, without any odd left turns.
With all this talk of a Marmot brand, I’m thinking I should start doing some marketing. Start online sales of t-shirts or something
Shelton is still trying to find his groove here. I’m sure he’ll soon get into it.
That being said, one of the reasons I’ve been looking for co-bloggers is to get a more diverse range of styles, topics and opinion on this website. Not that I don’t enjoy reading my own drivel, but it’s just one man’s limited opinion and about an equally limited selection of topics. Korea’s a complex, fast-moving place — it’s what makes it such a fascinating place in which to both live and blog. But due to my limited time, interests and knowledge, a lot of important stuff doesn’t get covered. Which is why I’m looking for help.
We may have another co-blogger — another blogger you may be familiar with — blogging here soon. One thing I’m keen of getting is some actual Korean or ethnic Korean imput. This is not to say that a bunch of (in my case, conservative) white guys blogging on Korea can’t be constructive, but I don’t think it’s too much of a generalization to say that our backgrounds may color how we see things here. Some diversity — which we have to some extent in the comments section — wouldn’t hurt, IMHO.
You can always just whip something up in illustrator and make a CafePress store Marmot. If you want to get more elaborate there are a couple of silk-screening shops in ??™?Œ€??¸ that are pretty cheap. Merchandising is a good way to support bandwidth costs without putting advertising on the site.
–
When I was a kid, about 5, I insisted that “Butwhy?” was a word, mainly because I used it so extensively. I think it’s the nature of children to be inquisitive. When I go up to my boss and say, “??¤??????” he answers with, “??‘” or “???” usually. Same thing with the other coworkers from what I’ve seen. Perhaps “why” is just the favorite response of children throuhgout the world.
“Why” is an L1 transfer of “?™œ?” which is itself an ellipsis of “?™œ ?¶???€??´??”?” or “?™œ ?·¸?????”?” or something along those lines.
Native English speakers might mean, “What do you want?” or “What are you doing that for?” but a Korean native might mean, “Why are you calling me?” or “Why is it /are you like that?”Eventually, I found myself saying ?€œWhy??€? instead of ?€œWhat??€? as well. When I noticed I was doing it one a regular basis, it was one of those signs I was no longer an American living in Korea ?€” I was an American expat.No offense, Shelton, but one might say it’s a sign of being a sloppy English teacher. It is your professional duty to make sure your client/student is getting what he or she pays for, not someone who will reinforce improper speaking styles.
The only time I hear ?™œ ?·¸???? is when I’m doing something particularly strange. Like if I start walking around the office backwards, start screaming “??¸?????? ?¡œ?´‡?“¤ ??¤??¤!!” or anything else someone will say, “?™œ ?·¸???” = “Why are you doing that?” If I goatsed someone on MSN they’d say “??´?³??ª¨??¼??!” which pretty much feels like “WTF” to me.
What about this, when people are writing about databases you will see phrases like “?°¾??? ??? ??†?œ¼??´” when they mean that there are no records matching a search in the index, but they make no distinction between a search which returns no results and a search which failed to be executed. That drives me nuts.
I like Kushibo’s view of the ‘Marmot Brand’:
a highly informed but occasionally irreverent blog with a slightly conservative bent for people who want to keep with the political, social, and economic goings-on of Korea.
I’ve love to see an expansion of this concept. I think that adding other views is fine, but whether as a participant or as a reader, I hope that we don’t steer too far from this rich path.
On marketing the Marmot brand, here’s a t-shirt:
front back
What’s up? The Marmot’s Hole
http://blog.marmot.cc
This, I feel, really demonstrates why I’m not in marketing.
To English teachers out there:
Confusing ?€œWhy?€? with ?€œWhat?€? is one thing, but from my own experience (learning Engrish or Konglish whatever you name it), Koreans often confuse ?€œWhat?€? with ?€œHow.?€?
For example, Koreans often use, ?€œHow do you think??€? (?€???´????²Œ?€™????°???´?) Because of ?€???´????²Œ,?€™ they tend to use ?€œhow?€? instead of ?€œwhat.?€?
Just FYI. It?€™s hard to learn language, but teaching language seems harder. Good luck, teachers…
Just to be clear, I was joking about marketing.
One of the things I am discussing with another blogger, however, is podcasting. Look for that to start up this summer.
I thought this might make a good t-shirt for all the blonde-haired ex-pats in .kr;
http://photos12.flickr.com/186.....64d0_b.jpg
hahaha…nice touch with the goofy power metal song that was playing with the pen video.
And I didn’t know the “why” thing went beyond one Korean woman I know. That’s news to me… is it because there is no distinct difference of “why” and “what” in Korean? I wonder “why”..hurhurhur
Kushibo has a point about giving the clients “what they pay for”. For awhile I was bending to my students in an attempt to make communication easier. Things like answering to “why?” and omitting articles like “the” and “a”. I think it is natural for humans to simplify language in order to communicate easier. While it does make communication easier between student and teacher, it isn’t good for the student IMO. How else will students learn how to speak ?€œproperly?€?? Of course we have to bend somewhat. I slow down my speech a bit in Korea. It makes no sense to speak to kids as fast as a CNN anchor talks. Of course it sucks when you have been in Korea for a long time, go back home on vacation, and talk real slow like for a day or two before you realize you sound like an idiot.
Non-Korean, I have been working for some time in broadcasting, in charge of developing and/producing much of the English-language content. One of the first battles I ever chose to really stand up and fight for was the one to have English at a normal speed. “No one will understand!” I was told.
I finally convinced the higher-ups that we were doing no one any favors by speaking at an unnaturally slowed down speed, and that if we want to make it easier for the ch’obo, then subtitles and on-line scripts were the way to go.
I was vindicated by floods of viewers/listeners who said that thanks to this show or that show they can finally understand what real native English speakers are saying.
Hmm, I guess the last few posts answer my question.
Kushibo
Good to hear you tried something different and it worked out.
This Nigerian Guy I Pass Every Day in My Neighborhood ?€” What?€™s Up With That Guy?
Actually, if anyone would do a post like that, it’s me — I live in Haebangchon
Okay, I promised to withhold criticism on this, but I?€™m going to call Shelton on this one. Shelton, this is not a criticism of the post per se (though the title is misleading), but simply a statement that this is just not suited to the Marmot brand.
It?€™s fine for Ahssa, which is the blog about a Korean newbie ESL teacher?€™s experiences in Korea, but not for Marmot, which is a highly informed but occasionally irreverent blog with a slightly conservative bent for people who want to keep with the political, social, and economic goings-on of Korea.
I agree.
I first noticed Korean students playing with their pens and twirling them obsessively twenty years ago at UCLA. And I’m sure they’d been doing it long before that.
Frankly, I find this entire genre of “overeducated white guy who finds himself teaching children in Korea’s first impressions of wacky Korea/ns” blogging (which sprang up suddenly only a couple of years ago) tiresome.
seems like a lot of people are on the rag today.
I?€™d like to second Kushibo?€™s comments
?€?a highly informed but occasionally irreverent blog with a slightly conservative bent for people who want to keep with the political, social, and economic goings-on of Korea.
People flock to Marmot?€™s for that informed view and information, and then, according to their taste, they sample the menu to the right ?€“
Is that pen-twirling thing universal among Koreans!? My wife does it all the time, too! She’s got it down to an exact science. There must be test on it in ch’odng hakkyo (elementary school) or something, or it’s in their genes.
I agree with hardyandtiny:
seems like a lot of people are on the rag today.
I’m happy with the spin Shelton is putting on things. And Marmot, I like the idea of your trying to get a Korean contributor. That’d be cool to have a mix of backgrounds. (Or get the Marmotess to become a poster!)
Regarding the “yea, yea, yea,” I like the expression you sometimes here, “a, ye” (??? ???) which is impeccably pure Korean and not Konglish at all, but sounds a lot like the English “oh, yeah.”
Oh man, sloppy English! Hear, not “here,” of course!
Is that pen-twirling thing universal among Koreans!? My wife does it all the time, too!
I ain’t too bad at it either
A long time ago, when I was in a semi-official position, I was interviewed by ??œ?????€??? I think, and basically the only thing they remembered is that I kept twirling my pen during the interview… Sigh! Or maybe it’s because what I said was of no interest. Ah yes, that could be it.
Seriously, when you spend so much time sitting down and [hopefully] studying, you have to pick up a habbit to keep your mind preventling going stir-crazy. Pen twirling is a de facto standard. The other one is sleeping on your chair, left elbow firmly planted on the desk, forefinger just above your nose, between your brows, propping your head in a supposedly studious posture…
Pen-twirling is seen by teachers and higher-ups as something akin to shaking your leg due to nervousness, boredom, or excess energy. It’s not something you want to be doing during an interview process.
I have to go with dogbert: this is something that’s been around forever, and it’s only fresh to a newbie and thus may be inappropriate for this kind of list (but not for another kind).
I’m not saying can, axe, or boot Shelton, just that Shelton’s posts for Marmot’s Hole should fit a different standard than those for Ahssa.
Otherwise, we might get something like this:
Repercussions of Roh-Bush meeting, by Marmot
Those crazy flatbed vendors and their loudspeakers, by Guest Blogger
Fisking a NYT editorial on options for dealing with nuclear North Korea, by Marmot
Would ajummas make good NFL linebackers?, by Guest Blogger
The Korean movie industry takes a serious look at the Screen Quota System (Must read!), by Marmot
Crazy Suwon Taxi Drivers (Must read!), by Guest Blogger
National Assembly debates the cost of USFK move to Pyeongtaek, by Marmot (Marmot would spell it Pyeongtaek)
This Nigerian Guy I Pass Every Day in My Neighborhood — What’s Up With That Guy?, by Guest Blogger
…
Quantity does not always equal quality. I would rather have one Marmot-quality post every three days than three non-Marmot-quality posts every day.
I agree with Kushibo. I come to this blog because it’s anything BUT the “Koreans like this” and “Korean do that” conversation that inevitably occurs with other expats. It feels like I’m talking with someone who knows more than I do, and it feels like the author is taking Korea seriously, which I also do.
To write “Koreans dig —” is not taking this country seriously. It’s a definite sign of a newbie expat who think his or her impression of the people they’ve met is worth reading. Maybe it’s worth reading for grandma. It’s not, however, what I come to the Marmot for.
Shelton has some funny comments and a clear and snappy writing style. I’ll have to check out his blog. I’d rather click on the link to it, though.
As for the Marmot’s comment about needing outside material to avoid having a one-track-mind, I totally understand. That’s why I like to read more than one blog.
Blog = personal daily writings with a specific focus.
Emphasis on personal.
Marmot wrote:Not that I don?€™t enjoy reading my own drivel, but it?€™s just one man?€™s limited opinion and about an equally limited selection of topics. Korea?€™s a complex, fast-moving place ?€” it?€™s what makes it such a fascinating place in which to both live and blog. But due to my limited time, interests and knowledge, a lot of important stuff doesn?€™t get covered. Which is why I?€™m looking for help.And pabsthooligan responded:As for the Marmot?€™s comment about needing outside material to avoid having a one-track-mind, I totally understand. That?€™s why I like to read more than one blog.I second what pabsthooligan has to say.
First of all, even if Marmot’s were really to be merely “one man’s limited opinion… about an equally limited selection of topics,” that would be perfectly okay, because that is what a blog is.
But I do believe that even with you (Marmot) being the sole writer, this blog does not get to that point because of the diversity of informed opinion that responds to the posts. That makes up a great deal of the diversity that attracts people here. It’s like watching a quality movie and then talking about it afterwards with people.
Things that should be covered but that aren’t, often end up getting mentioned in the comments. You also frequently post links to other blogs, which is a very fine way to handle it. I’ve discovered many fine blogs because of that (and maybe one or two people have discovered my blog that way).
It’s a rare case, IMO, for several people to be posting on a blog in a way that really fits. ComingAnarchy seems to have made it work — because they’re ALL NUTS!
— but many others don’t.
To me (warning: lame analogy coming), it is like getting married. If you have encountered someone and you just mesh, and you think, “Wow! Where has this person been all my life!” and you just work well together, that’s a really good person to marry. On the other hand, if you’re thinking, “Oh, my God! I’m thirty! I have to get married!” and you start looking around for what you think might be a good fit, you’re in for some surprises.
Again, this is not to bash Shelton’s work here or his blog in general: I have several favorite blogs, but I would have to say that most of them would not suit the Marmot brand.
This is only about maintaining the quality of the Marmot brand, which makes this the first place I look for anything.
Because I did not have any experience as a teacher when I came to Korea, I made a lot of mistakes in class — mistakes that my children have not forgotten.
The reprecussions of all those mistakes are coming back now, when several children telling me I’m a horrible teacher or backtalking me. As I often tell She Who Must Be Obeyed: “I can’t can’t change the past, I can only change the present and the future.”
I am a significant better teacher now, but I have to deal with their bad vibes.
I have only been guest blogging for a few days now and I am a quick learner, esp. when it comes to the needs of an audience. In fact, that’s one of the first rules of journalism, “Know thy audience.”
So, please — please — be patient. I aim to fit my writing to The Marmot’s Hole so well that a week from now you might not even notice it’s me instead of him. (Although my writing style is naturally such that it’s going to be just bit more wry at times, I’m afraid. See Also: use of the word “dig.”)
Why do the foreigners clump together in specific places like Itaewon/Haebangchon? I can’t understand it. I avoid those areas like the plague. Heck, I even avoid foreigners on the street, I try not to look at them and keep them out of my field of vision if at all possible.
Lack of Korean skills, desire to have things from home close to the new home, familiarity because of friends/family already in that area.
Classic immigrant pattern.
Marmot wrote:This Nigerian Guy I Pass Every Day in My Neighborhood ?€” What?€™s Up With That Guy?
Actually, if anyone would do a post like that, it?€™s me ?€” I live in Haebangchon.Yeah, Marmot, but you would link it to a pertinent and well-written news article on the topic, and possibly include an interview with the person. It would also be relatively free of the pedestrian opinions of newbies to Korea (or to anywhere other than their home state/province).
Kushibo, sorry if you’ve answered this one before, but who’s the kid in your gravatar?
i’m thinking that with the advent of more bloggers here, and looking for someone with a more korean slant (korean or kyopo) that i’d like to nominate baduk.
although he goes to extremes at times, he often gets a pearl of insight or two into his rhetoric. stylistically, he offends a lot of people, but he’s a pretty bright blogger and has obviously had experience in areas more suitable to what i’d like to read than folks interested in canadian/american differences or difficulties of teaching.
again, i can see a dark path leading to inane or bit’ blogging if folks don’t stay on the topics of politics, international relations, governmental silliness or sex. hehe…i hate having to go through the archived material for that.
for god’s sake, some of us wanna know what happended to dalgi since she did her stint with the comfort women…
Kushibo, sorry if you?€™ve answered this one before, but who?€™s the kid in your gravatar? It’s Vladimir Putin as a baby.
Putin was never a baby - just ask the kids at School Number One in Beslan.
I’m with Kushibo on the Marmot subject matter. There’s more than enough armchair sociology in the comments section (and yes that includes me). Just a little gentle criticism, Mr. Bumgarner–try not to get too tangential, especially with the headings. “Have Saber, Will Rattle” was not appropriate for the piece on the Bush-Roh summit. I’ve been writing for publication for about 20 years, and rule No. 1 I’ve learned is “know your audience.” Hope you’re not dissuaded by any of this–writing should be an enjoyable activity.
“It is a traditional trope of Western literature, particularly poetry, that words are inadequate to the needs of personal expression, that available language falls drastically short of the poet’s inner vision. But this trope is itself linguistically articulated. The anguish of unattainable precision or radiance is real enough, but it is also conventional and is itself a means of eloquence.” –George Steiner
I’d like to vote to keep this a Marmot-only blog. Marmot has built up significant brand equity with this project and letting others blog only dilutes the message and diminishes the brand. There’s nothing wrong with linking interesting posts from other blogs, of course, and that’s how I find other worthy Korean blogs.
Wow. You’d think folks were paying to read this blog. IMHO, Marmot could let Peewee Herman guest-blog here if he so desired; after all Marmot’s paying for the hosting and bandwidth, not us. This is like your TV…if you don’t care for a certain show, you can either turn the channel or turn it off altogether - so if you don’t like a particular post, don’t read it.
What’s wrong with Peewee Herman????!!
/me stares indignantly
Dda ??crit way back in num??ro 26:
Seriously, when you spend so much time sitting down and [hopefully] studying, you have to pick up a habbit to keep your mind preventling going stir-crazy. Pen twirling is a de facto standard. The other one is sleeping on your chair, left elbow firmly planted on the desk, forefinger just above your nose, between your brows, propping your head in a supposedly studious posture…
The famous “Superman position”!
…That is, when the one arm is bent at an angle and the other one points straight ahead….
This public vivisection of my writing (grin) reminds me of the old quip about Usenet that went along the lines of, “Go ye not to Usenet for advice, for ye shall only get, ‘Yes,’ ‘No,’ and ‘Try Another Newsgroup” in response.”
I have been writing for publication since I was at least a junior in high school, so say about 15 years. The picture on the left is the back of my head at my last newspaper gig. I have been writing and reading things on the Internet for at least 10 years, so I have a sense of what is acceptable and not acceptable in this medium.
Additionally, I am a big fan of Gawker, Defamer and Wonkette, blogs that have a writing style I admire and attempt to immulate here. The “Have Saber, Will Rattle” headline is something I felt was amusing and clever and thus would lead readers to want to read on.
Yes, it was not exactly a perfect headline, but I felt it was within the range of similar headlines that a magazine like Newsweek might use. I will think twice before I do such a thing in the future, however, given that being so clever evidently is more New Coke and Gremlin than Classic Coke and Mustang in the eyes of the Marmot’s Hole readership.
Grin.
As I have said — repeatedly — I open to any and all advice and if I feel the criticism is in good faith and constructive and I will respond accordingly. I live and breath the written word and the social interaction of the individual with media so I can understand perfectly that some of you might be put off a bit by pulling up your favorite Korea blog and seeing an interloper such as myself.
There is a bit of learning curve writing here– much more than I expected — but there is nothing any of you can say that is going to get me too riled up. Grin. Did I ever mention that community newspaper editors can be pretty tough on your writing when they edit it? Did I…Did I?
Grin.
My writing here as a “guest blogger” is at the pleasure of The Marmot and he, to date, has been encouraging and therefore I will go “once more into the breech,” hoping you’ll give me another chance.
Having said all that, I am getting a better sense of the audience here and I will be more conservative in what I do. I have only been writing here for about a week and I promise — I PROMISE — if you give me one more week you will be able to tolerate me and my writing style.
Oh boy, Shelton’s posts have been stirring up a lot of emotions.
Random replies to random comments:
Shelton (original post): I have less of a problem with what you wrote than some other commenters, but please avoid writing “Konglishie”! It’s bad enough that people poke fun at Konglishborrowed and “nativized” vocabulary makes up a significant part of almost any languagebut to add the “-ie” on the end is really too much.
Shelton (#4): Please, it’s segue, not “segway”! The latter is the brand name of that ridiculous people-moving contraption that came out a couple of years ago.
KrZ (#6): I find myself saying ??‘ sometimes in inappropriate situations. There’s no way to quickly turn it into a polite expression. I.e., if one started off by saying ?·¸???…, one could make it polite by adding a quick …??”. No way to turn ??‘ around like that!
KrZ (#8): Interesting what you wrote about failed DB searches.
By the way, one Korean expression that I have completely adopted in English is that -??´ ????²???¤ construction. “If you could [do this or that], that’d be great.” I do it more often that I’d like.
Non Korean (#15): As you pointed out, you were doing no one any favours, especially by dropping articles. I sometimes hear English teachers do that, and it iswith all due respectinexcusable. The best example to set, in my humble opinion, is simply to enunciate clearly.
Kushibo (#16): Kudos on your efforts at having English spoken at normal speeds. Glad to see that it met with such a positive response! Captions and downloadable (tran)scripts are excellent solutions. I wish more Korean shows provided such facilities. (Can’t get Korean captions on a TV set built for North America; some shows do post online scripts now.)
Dogbert (#19): Okay, I’ve got a bit clearer idea of what you, Kushibo, et al. are upset about. Look, I’m the first person to get tired of the inane observations of a novice English teacher; but still, I found the things he wrote interesting. On the other hand, I suppose he will be modifying the way he writes, on the basis of the responses on this thread.
Hardyandtiny (#20): Then again, I’d have to agree with Hardyandtiny’s sentiments! (Being “on the rag.”)
Kushibo (#27): Entertaining selection of titles! But why shouldn’t the Marmot write it as Pyeongtaek? Regardless of what one thinks of the Revised Romanization of Korean, “Pyeongtaek” is in fact the way it’s spelled now. We’re not talking the question of how to romanize, say, some Korean sentence, but a place name with a well-established contemporary (and in fact “official”) romanized spelling.
KrZ (#33): I’m with you on avoiding other foreigners like the plague. I try to blend in as much as I can, and being around other visibly non-Koreans just seems to attract negative attention.
Kushibo (#34): Then again, I understand the need for some foreignersespecially those who are there for the long haulto stick together for cameraderie and support. The same reason that, say, many Korean immigrants to North American cities choose to live in neighbourhoods where there are other Korean immigrants.
Judge Judy (#37): Your honour, there are sometimes pearls of wisdom in Baduk’s comments and I never dismiss what he writes out of hand. But every post with his byline is going to have “damn commie liars” somewhere in iteven in articles that mention, say, “Hollywood liberals” or the Boston Globe!
Nomad (#42): I’m sorry to have a contrary opinion here, but I fully agree with Nomad. I’m guessing that the Marmot knows Shelton and gave him a personal vetting before letting him loose here.
I’d like to say personally, that in general, too much of the NK nuclear stuff, modern sexual mores, etc. is just damn distressing (sorry, Marmot). A few lighthearted articles on this or that topic are a welcome relief.
And Marmot, please post some more articles on cultural topics. You’ve posted a couple on Mungyeong Saejae over the past few months. And the work you put into the themes (Boseong Tea Green, etc.) and your choice of gravatar (the Taegeuk Master!) is evidence of an interest in and sensibility towards Korean culture that I would like to see more of.
The end.
Curious wrote:Shelton (original post): I have less of a problem with what you wrote than some other commenters, but please avoid writing ?€œKonglishie?€?! It?€™s bad enough that people poke fun at Konglish?€”borrowed and ?€œnativized?€? vocabulary makes up a significant part of almost any language?€”but to add the ?€œ-ie?€? on the end is really too much.I was NOT going to bring this up, but I have always thought that Engrishee and Konglishee/ie have a condescending (if not outright racist at times) air to them. It’s Konglish (Korean + English); the extraneous -ee is simply mocking.Dogbert (#19): Okay, I?€™ve got a bit clearer idea of what you, Kushibo, et al. are upset about. Look, I?€™m the first person to get tired of the inane observations of a novice English teacher; but still, I found the things he wrote interesting. On the other hand, I suppose he will be modifying the way he writes, on the basis of the responses on this thread.I don’t think anyone is saying that Shelton’s writing is not interesting, just that it doesn’t quite fit with the Marmot’s Hole.Hardyandtiny (#20): Then again, I?€™d have to agree with Hardyandtiny?€™s sentiments! (Being ?€œon the rag.?€?)I think most people have been very civil about expressing their opinions. But what else would you expect of connoisseurs and patrons of Marmot’s?Kushibo (#27): Entertaining selection of titles! But why shouldn?€™t the Marmot write it as Pyeongtaek? Regardless of what one thinks of the Revised Romanization of Korean, ?€œPyeongtaek?€? is in fact the way it?€™s spelled now. We?€™re not talking the question of how to romanize, say, some Korean sentence, but a place name with a well-established contemporary (and in fact ?€œofficial?€?) romanized spelling.Actually, the US military uses “Pyongtaek,” which is in line with many international usages, which stick with McCune-Reischauer regardless of what the Korean government has decided to do. I was only making the point that I would not write it that way.KrZ (#33): I?€™m with you on avoiding other foreigners like the plague. I try to blend in as much as I can, and being around other visibly non-Koreans just seems to attract negative attention.I don’t go out of my way, but I don’t try to seek them out, either. I must admit, though, that I get why my ex wanted to live in a place like that.Kushibo (#34): Then again, I understand the need for some foreigners?€”especially those who are there for the long haul?€”to stick together for cameraderie and support. The same reason that, say, many Korean immigrants to North American cities choose to live in neighbourhoods where there are other Korean immigrants.I like going to Itaewon for the international hotties.Judge Judy (#37): Your honour, there are sometimes pearls of wisdom in Baduk?€™s comments and I never dismiss what he writes out of hand. But every post with his byline is going to have ?€œdamn commie liars?€? somewhere in it?€”even in articles that mention, say, ?€œHollywood liberals?€? or the Boston Globe!If Baduk would back up some of his wild claims with something other than the voices in his head, he’d be an interesting addition.I?€™d like to say personally, that in general, too much of the NK nuclear stuff, modern sexual mores, etc. is just damn distressing (sorry, Marmot). A few lighthearted articles on this or that topic are a welcome relief.I like light-hearted, too, but light-hearted and informed and clever. As Dogbert said, the whacky observations of a newbie can be tiresome.
I didn’t touch on this much, but I think part of what it is that bugs me is the somewhat pedestrian and sophomoric tone of such newbies’ posts when they try to post on something more serious. I come here because it reminds me of shooting the bull with my grad school classmates about the same topics. If I want something else, I’ll go to another blog.And Marmot, please post some more articles on cultural topics. You?€™ve posted a couple on Mungyeong Saejae over the past few months. And the work you put into the themes (Boseong Tea Green, etc.) and your choice of gravatar (the Taegeuk Master!) is evidence of an interest in and sensibility towards Korean culture that I would like to see more of.Maybe there just aren’t that many cultural stories lately.The end.Like I’d let you or anyone else get the last word. THIS is the end.
No, this is!
Kushibo wrote:
If CNN started playing cartoons, we wouldn?€™t say to ourselves, ?€œWell, it?€™s CNN?€™s network; they?€™ll do what they want,?€? and then change the channel. No, we would be writing to CNN and saying, ?€œHey, what?€™s up with that? Bring back Christine Armanamanampour.?€?
Well, trying to type that, anyway (some of us are cursed with poor typing skills). However, I do agree with the point.
But, in seriousness, and in extension of that analogy, we would probably not write in demanding that only she serve as presenter. I am very keen on quality, but I think that it’s okay for Marmot to pass off some of the duties of this blog to others. However, quantity without quality is of little value to me ?€“ I don’t want one without the other. I agree that any blogger’s views here neccesarily have to be informed ones, or else some may start to ‘change the channnel’.
In other words, I feel that whosoever blogs here has a responsibility to maintain it, and not shape it in some ?€?new?€™ or ?€?interesting?€™ way. Since Shelton is here, and Marmot?€™s asked us to give him some time, let?€™s do that. But, be prepared Shelton, for the criticism that will come, and honestly assess it for value regardless of its source. After all, people here give a damn about this place.
Okay, okay: P’yngt’aek.
That felt good.
Since when has this blog ever meant only for people with a significant Korea focused education? If that is the case, there are online discussions that are far more scholastic. Are we not all armchair sociologists? Does that make the discussion any less interesting? I don’t think it is in anyone’s interest to limit discussion or access to it based on how long they have lived in Korea.
I agree 100% that Marmots hole has attracted a much better than average educated and informed group that is truly interested in Korea, most with a solid understanding of Korean language, history, culture, society and politics. This is the thing that keeps me interested-truly buble gum for the mind. I think that Kushibo brings out a very good point; the Marmot has set a standard for the frequent visitor. Maintenance of that is what they are expecting.
I think the idea of additional bloggers is a good one. New ideas are refreshing. If the marmot standard is maintained, the difference in style will compliment rather than detract from the enjoyability of the blog.
Baduk has a habit of connecting most everything to communists and nuclear weapons but I agree with the opinion that he does contribute some interesting insight and I enjoy reading his posts. As for the Marmotess-I am pretty sure she posts from time to time, I seem to remember having a discussion with her about Matrioshka dolls and babushka scarves.
James wrote:Since when has this blog ever meant only for people with a significant Korea focused education?I don’t think anyone was suggesting it was meant only for such people, but there is a difference between being an informed pundit providing information and a less-informed but curious reader seeking information and a forum to discuss it.If that is the case, there are online discussions that are far more scholastic.The problem with the “scholastic” discussions is that they are too often very rigid in what can be written. The KS list, for example, can be very narrow in its focus (by design, and with admonitions by the moderators).Are we not all armchair sociologists?I know I am. I even write that in my intro: A self-described “armchair social critic” focusing on East Asian and US social and medical issues.Does that make the discussion any less interesting? I don?€™t think it is in anyone?€™s interest to limit discussion or access to it based on how long they have lived in Korea.Well, no one is suggesting Shelton (or another blogger of similar caliber) shouldn’t be participating in discussion, but some of us are questioning the value of having such people participate as the actual content bloggers.I agree 100% that Marmots hole has attracted a much better than average educated and informed group that is truly interested in Korea, most with a solid understanding of Korean language, history, culture, society and politics. This is the thing that keeps me interested-truly buble gum for the mind. I think that Kushibo brings out a very good point; the Marmot has set a standard for the frequent visitor. Maintenance of that is what they are expecting.And I think that this is why we have become so temperately adamant about how we feel about this. While Shelton has a blog that is interesting and sometimes witty, it’s not Marmot-quality.
As Nomad points out (#42), we don’t pay for this. Not with money anyway. But we do with our time and our own writing, which is the other side of the coin for a blog of this caliber*. Yes, it is just Marmot’s and he pays the bills, but if he weren’t concerned with the impressions of the public that participates in his blog, he wouldn’t be doing this in the first place, nor would he have imposed the sign-in policy, nor would he have considered a guest blogger in the first place.
Marmot is trying to create a useful, interesting, and meaningful blog (I assume), and with our opinions we are trying to help him achieve it.
*And by “a blog of this caliber” I mean one that has become essential for people with an active interest in the goings-on here. I first checked Marmot’s out at the suggestion of several different people, all of whom suggested I was missing something very important by not coming here. That is something I would like to maintain about this blog, and frankly I don’t see it happening with Shelton. Or, for that matter, with most people here. Oranckay, perhaps, but only because he’s an similarly knowledgeable and seasoned person in Korea and perhaps because his left-leaning views might provide some balance to Marmot’s (although I think Marmot’s mild conservativeness, if that’s what it is, is overshadowed by a good measure of pragmatism that will inform his views irrespective of political or social ideology or bent).I think the idea of additional bloggers is a good one. New ideas are refreshing. If the marmot standard is maintained, the difference in style will compliment rather than detract from the enjoyability of the blog.Nomad also suggested that we could change the channel or turn it off altogether. Well, I would rather not have that situation at all.
If CNN started playing cartoons, we wouldn’t say to ourselves, “Well, it’s CNN’s network; they’ll do what they want,” and then change the channel. No, we would be writing to CNN and saying, “Hey, what’s up with that? Bring back Christine Armanamanampour.” If CNN had thought that the cartoons would be a good break for people who didn’t want to burn out on the news, they’d be happy to hear our feedback.Baduk has a habit of connecting most everything to communists and nuclear weapons but I agree with the opinion that he does contribute some interesting insight and I enjoy reading his posts.Baduk is very good at sniping, but will he be good at creating? A world of difference, which is why I write far more here and at AsiaPages than I do on my own blog.
That is something I would like to maintain about this blog, and frankly I don?€™t see it happening with Shelton.
So, in your eyes, there is nothing I can do that will allow you to accept me or at least tolerate my writing here?
You don’t like me because I’m Not The Marmot.
The whole point of me being here (as I see it) is that I’m Not The Marmot. I have a different take on things and am a good enough writer that I can quickly Know The Audience here.
As I have repeatedly said, give me a week and then re-evaluate your position.
That is something I would like to maintain about this blog, and frankly I don?€™t see it happening with Shelton.
So, in your eyes, there is nothing I can do that will allow you to accept me or at least tolerate my writing here?No, I’m not saying this. The worst I could say about you is that at this point in your relatively brief time in Korea, you have not learned enough, quietly observed enough, or experienced enough to separate the pedestrian visitor to Korea from the Koreanist pundit that would make a good guest blogger on this blog.
That is not to say you could never be that person.You don?€™t like me because I?€™m Not The Marmot.No, I’m not saying that at all. In fact, I have mentioned one specific person, though I guess there are a few others. Frankly, Shelton, I don’t think I would be up to the task myself.The whole point of me being here (as I see it) is that I?€™m Not The Marmot. I have a different take on things and am a good enough writer that I can quickly Know The Audience here.Yes, Marmot is going for a divergent voice, but many of us feel that that different voice should still be as informed a person on Korean issues as Marmot.As I have repeatedly said, give me a week and then re-evaluate your position. I did start to do that, but then I began to see what, in my opinion, is a big part of the issue.
I am still giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I am choosing to opine along the way where specific examples lend themselves to constructive criticism.
Shelton, above all, please don’t take any of my criticisms personally. If someone like me were guest blogging, I’d have many other criticisms to make (I’m an armchair critic, after all). But this is not that SHELTON SUCKS (since that is not the case at all) but that people who have frequented this blog and come to appreciate it have not so much high expectations but specific expectations about what is needed to maintain this excellent blog. And only a few would live up to it.
Jesus, where is “danah boyd” with all of her talk about ’sociable media’ when you need her?
She’s in Southeast Asia now doing bobo things, so I’m sure we can track her down.
I don’t have time to write a full response, but I will make this observation — doesn’t the fact that The Marmot himself has been supportive of me to date mean anything? Doesn’t that mean that maybe he feels that I have the potential, if nothing else, to write here successfully?
Shelton wrote:I don?€™t have time to write a full response, but I will make this observation ?€” doesn?€™t the fact that The Marmot himself has been supportive of me to date mean anything? Doesn?€™t that mean that maybe he feels that I have the potential, if nothing else, to write here successfully?Yes, it does. But Marmot himself may not always gauge correctly what is best for Marmot’s, as he himself is only half of the equation. Right now I and a few others are offering our opinion as guidance for Marmot, knowing full well he has no obligation to any of us. If he chooses to stick with the situation as now, we then have a choice to just go along with it, leave, post less, post more, criticize, praise, or whatever. If he chooses to go back to the way it was or go in some different direction, we have the same choices.
gbnhj wrote:But, in seriousness, and in extension of that analogy, we would probably not write in demanding that only she serve as presenter. I am very keen on quality, but I think that it?€™s okay for Marmot to pass off some of the duties of this blog to others. However, quantity without quality is of little value to me ?€“ I don?€™t want one without the other. I agree that any blogger?€™s views here neccesarily have to be informed ones, or else some may start to ?€?change the channnel?€™.I am in obvious agreement with you here, but I just want to state that I really don’t want to get to the point where I feel the need to change the channel in this particular case.
I see what Kushibo and others here are pointing out-that the posts of late are not the standard that they have grown to expect. While I think that assessment is fair, I have decided to give things a while before I decide to lament the way things have changed. I find myself and I think based on the number of posts I am seeing, others not responding in the way that we used to. That is really the thing that makes participation enjoyable and the investment in time and energy worth it. I think the thing some of the people who have posted here are getting at is that we can all read the newspaper ourselves. The ability to gather items that will generate stimulating discussion is what we are all after and that ability is dependant on understanding what many of us already understand about Korea and what we as a group of readers find interesting. I hope that it gets there soon so everyone can be happy.
My two bits: Mr. Bumgarner as a contributor is fine. I just read this blog to see how others in my situation (Westerner living in Seoul) perceive what I do and compare perspectives–I also get a kick out of the comments, and that includes ones by Koreans here and overseas. It’s all good. The advice I gave Mr. Bumgarner above somewhere he can take or leave, although he ignores it at his peril
I’m in a situation that gives me the inside track on much that is going on in Korea in general, but no outlet to comment on it or hear from others, so off to The Marmot I go….