From the May 18 Memorial Foundation.
9:40: In front of Chonnam National University gate, martial law troops block about 50 students from entering campus.
10:00: Students protest, showing slogans “End martial law” and “Withdraw the order to close the universities.”
10:15: Blood flowing, students collapse as their protest is broken up by club-wielding paratroopers.
10:20: Students begin to move toward Geumnam-no, chanting, “Let’s go to Geumnam-no.”
15:40: Paratroopers appear at Yu-dong 3 Street and waywardly begin suppression operations.
19:02: Martial law command announces it has advanced the curfew in the Gwangju area to 9:00 p.m.
Photo from Iam5.18.com.
144 Comments
I would seriously recommend “Korea On the Brink” by John A. Whickham. Very enlighting book from one who was right there when it happened.
This is usually the main occasion for some quarters to condemn the U.S. for not intervening, or claim it was involved–so I thought, why not get the ball rolling? Here’s a link to a Village Voice article I lifted from the Flyin’ Yangban’s blog: http://66.70.64.59/news/0242,mamatas,39177,6.html
I don’t have a dog in this race, although I find it, um, interesting that both Carter’s and Kim Dae-jung’s Nobels might both be tainted by events on the peninsula.
Naah, my pop acted like he was calling the presidential mention to bitch out at the mutha that was in the office (Chun doo-wan) what sorta scumbag he was, but he never whine about the US. I say “acted like” cuz, for all I know, he could’ve been bull-shitting - he was drunk as skunk (and I was 10 by then - I didn’t ask or try to verify).
Troll, could you elaborate? I didn’t quite follow “calling the presidential mention.”
Looks like you and I are the same age (?°œ???, year of the dog).
mansion, i meant. son like the father, i guess. this was early 80s. wait, my bottle is empty - gotta fetch me another one.
Seriously, calling the Cheong Wa Dae?
my pop was no ordinary lunatic. nor me. it runs in the family. i’ve got our geokbo to prove it (if you would trust such a thing).
You mean, your jeokbo proves it? As in, these are famous lunatics?
I wouldn’t trust a jeokbo past a couple of hundred years back at the most. With all due respect to my wife’s ancestors (better be extra nice to them now when I do a jesa), my in-law’s family’s one says they’re descended from a Gaya princess. It may or may not be true; I have no way of knowing.
Whoops, that does it: I might have just pissed off the ancestral spirits of something like 5 percent of all the families in Korea! I am in no position whatsoever to doubt the family’s history, as it’s presented in their jeokbo. I have not yet attended a jesa, but if and when I do, I fully intend to show the proper reverence. So just scratch what I wrote. And for any ancestral spirits reading this, I apologize. ??¤?¡€?????€?????´??¤.
…Pass me the soju, troll….
our geokbo runs about 650 years. before that, we were a part of a clan based on gaesong (that’s the area around current day pyonyang, near NK’s capital) during the latter koryo days. this was the time when mongol pressure was diminishing, and before yi choson came about. and apparently, this founder of our clan really pissed off the power-that-be, and he and three generaions of his family got exiled to southern tip of the pennisula - the intent was to dry out the “seed”. but due to this guy’s apparent sheer bloody-mindedness, i’m here.
i can go on about this, but that will be for another day. as i wrote, it all depends on how much you can put your trust on the geokbo, but knowing the redneck-iness/tradtion-boundness about my family, i suspect it’s got some meat to it.
That’s a fascinating story! Did your family stay thereon the southern tip? (Jeolla?)or did they eventually return to Gaeseong?
Anyhow, I really didn’t mean to cast doubt on my in-laws’ jeokbo either…. I think I just really came across as another “stupid foreigner.” Seeing as tracing my origins involves working out on a piece of paper to a maximum of three generations something that for a Korean involves hundreds of pages going back centuries in a regularly republished book, I’m in no position whatsoever to make any kind of offhand comments.
Okay, now really, please pass the soju!
Curious, your skepticism is warranted. I am told of several periods in the history where the wealthy merchants “bought” geokbos, so they could be fake, including my family’s, although I doubt that’s the case with my family as they certainly weren’t wealthy in material terms. But who knows.
I know very little about my family history, but hope to learn more about it.
I’ve got your soju - perhaps one day I’ll have the privilige to pass it on to you.
PS: soju is supposed to be made by distilling mahkulli, i think, but the crap they make these days, god know what they are made of. either way, soju wasn’t meant to be some fancy drink - it’s the drink for the working class folks. they outta at least lift the potency to 80-proof.
Plunge:
Thank you for getting this thread back on topic! Apart from reading about it, I can’t lend too much personal insight. I grew up in Canada; I recall hearing the news when Chun Doo-hwan staged his coup, and I remember hearing about the imposition of martial law…don’t know if that was at the time of the coup or at the time of the uprisings. Apparently, within Korea, the news coming out of Gwangju was highly censored. And the closure of the schools is, as I recall, a big thing, because I heard about it years later (about the mid 80s) in a radio documentary on South Korea.
Now, taking this back off topic for a minute:
Troll, that’s interesting to learn that it was originally distilled from makgeolli. Now I know where it comes from! Lord knows what it’s made from now…seems to be some kind of pure chemical. But I like it all the same. And I never thought of it as being a “fancy” drink…. It’s definitely the drink of Cheol-su Salaryman (and his wife), and pretty much everyone else. And me too, thank you very much!
And nownot to make light of this serious post&mdashp;the moment you’ve all been waiting for: linking Gwangju and soju! I gather that makgeolli (from which, as we have learned, soju used to be distilled) used to be a popular drink with students. It was somehow some kind of statement to drink makgeolli (?).
Lies, all lies.
These Chunnam students were no ordinary college students. They were pro-North student activists from all over Korea gathered at Kwangju to start an uprising which is carefully planned.
I am not saying General Chun was right; he pulled his division from DMZ to raid Seoul to usurp the presidency. He should be shot for this act of treason. However, most Koreans wanted the stability. They were willing to overlook this act because fighting this out could give the North commies a chance to start a war.
Everybody was mature except these commies at Kwangju. They wanted to overthrow the government so that KimDaeJoong can be the president. Kim was the agitator behind this uprising.
Most of participants were ne’er-do-wells, beggars and local thugs. They had no idea about what was going on. They just wanted to raise hell. The leaders of uprising were all pro-North commies. Some of them had direct communication with KJI.
These commies attacked the local police stations and took weapons. They rode around in police cars throwing pro-North leaflets. As you can see, this is no ordinary demonstration. They planned it carefully. When they took the weapon and about to march out of Kwangju, only thing the government can do was to kill them. Rho will do the same if it happens tomorrow.
Kwangju uprising had nothing to do democracy or freedom. It is not a revolution, nor liberation. It has no value other than giving a propaganda opportunity to make Korea lean toward the left. Many na??ve young people started to believe in Communist lies.
As a result, many became pro-North. When NK is developing nuke weaponry, SK is sending love calls. Stupid fools. What is going to happen next? I say, a war.
Mr. Plunge thanks for mentioning the book, I’ll check it out.
Baduk,
Thank you so much for that excellent description of what really happened. Wow, it’s like you were there or something.
While you’re at it, can you help me with this piece I’m doing for Xinhua about how the Tiananmen protesters all had it coming?
Baduk, everything you’ve written there is basically flat out wrong.
The student leaders had all been arrested the night of the 17th, or were all in hiding. There was no one to ‘lead’ the masses. The martial law troops (special forces) went in with orders to kill, should any demonstrations break out, and carried out their job very brutally, clubbing, stomping, and bayoneting students and anyone else who got in their way (student deaths were only about 1/3 of those killed). Most students had plans to rally off campus if the universities were shut down by the military, but only Kwangju’s students followed up on this plan. The soldiers proceeded to beat or kill anyone who resembled a student, chasing them into businesses and homes or onto buses and attacking anyone who got in their way. Many of the people who died were bystanders or people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everyday citizens in the city began to fight back, appalled at the soldier’s cruelty. A few people managed to get guns; when the army finally, on the 3rd day, opened up with m16s on the crowds in front of the provincial hall (killing around 50), people began to raid police stations to get guns to defend themselves, and eventually forced the army out of the city. It was at that point many foreign reporters began to arrive; their memories can be found here. Terry Anderson and Bradley Martin’s articles are well worth reading (they all are, really).
arrgh. the site is here: http://gshin.chonnam.ac.kr/kcs/book/book.htm
Kushibo,
Please do not make fun of this serious discussion. Kwangju uprising is an very important part of Korean history. Many facts are still hidden.
Do you know how many died? Can you name one person, just one, who died? I dare this to another Korean and he cannot name one.
Why is that? Who are these people who died? Where is their family? Which school did they attend? Who were their friends?
No answers. No facts. Everything is fabricated. After 25 years later, we know next to nothing. Why is that?
Do you know?
This is what I think. There were less than 20 deaths all together. They were beggars, mad men and possibly North Korean spies. This could be the reason why no name is ever mentioned. Because if one is named, the press will check his background.
Koreans are celebrating a lie!
Bulgasari,
Just give me one name. One person who died in the Kwangju uprising who was not a known pro-North communist.
I read about this incident. There was no name.
The uprising was no different than Jeju Island uprising or Yesu-Soonchun uprising. It was started by communists. And, it was pre-planned, possibly by North Korean spies.
Again, I am not condoning Pres. Chun and Pres. Rho TaeWoo. These are criminals. However, making Kwangju uprising into what it is not is a crime as well.
baduk: The names of the dead are listed. Just go here.
http://518.mpva.go.kr/bury_list/bury_list.asp#
It is way more than “20″.
I have no family there, no extended family, but I am very close to more than one person that directly witnessed what happened as well as being very close to some on the US side of things at the time.
It isn’t something that was made up. It isn’t a lie. Of course there are exaggerations, but your calling it ‘fabricated’ does a disservice to far too many.
Whether or not you agree with what the students did really doesn’t matter because far too many innocents died.
After 25 years later, there should be enough eyewitnesses to re-assemble the events as they happened with names and locations. Pres. Kim and Pres. Rho would love to have this event reconstructed. Newspapers will gobble it up as the top news item.
However, no effort of this kind is neither planned or carried out.
Why?
I think the reason is when they start to getting down details, people will find out the truth. They will find out so-called neutral citizens were not neutral at all. And, many who supposed to be dead are alive and well. They will know that the uprising is nothing more than pro-North propaganda. The whole Kwangju thing will lose its luster.
That is why there are no reconstructions with names and precise times. After 25 years, we have no solid facts, other than emotional mumbo-jumbo.
I remember in the congression investigation into this affair. A pro-North congressman showed a picture of dead bodies. He said one of the student activists took the picture. The picture later found out to be the picture of “dead Gongbi” circa 1968. The picture was taken twenty years prior to the Kwangju uprising.
This is what I mean by fabrication.
Wake up before it is too late. The enemy is at your door.
usinkorea: Please let us know when your review is done! I, for one, would be very very interested in reading it!
What was given in the court testimony that led to the death sentence for Chun?
I have no trouble imagining that a good number of key leaders and even a large number of the students were not simply peaceful demonstrators for real democracy. I also have no doubt there is exaggeration as to the nature of some of the protesters or in the number of deaths caused.
However, I also have no doubt a massacre set foward by the special forces unit took place. That the guilt for such a massacre lies at the feet of those troops and the men who ordered them to do it.
I thought I’d throw this in too —- a serious discussion of the Kwangju setting should get into the regionalism in Korea and at that time period. I’ve read it mentioned as a significant influence in how protests in Cholla were handled compared to other places. And since I met in the mid to late 1990s more than one or two Kangwon province women who told me their parents had told them “never marry a Cholla-do man!” it isn’t difficult for me to imagine the situation….
Plunge,
So they have names, if they are true names. And, they have the bodies, if these were the bodies that fell during the incident at all. What if they just made up? Did they actually have gun shot wounds to prove it? Did anybody check? Or, they just have accepted someone’s words?
I believe they were moved from the original burial place to the national cemetary after 10+ years. Can we dig these bones and look for the gun shot wounds?
What bugs me is that there is no human story at all. I mean in Korean newspapers. They have to get at least one family’s story about the incident.
There is none. Why is that? After all these years, we do not know of even one family’s account of Kwangju incident.
After Pres. Rho is replaced with a true leader in the next election, he will dig through these fabrications and find the truth. And, after Kim DaeJoong dies, many truths will come out.
I hope ten years from now this Kwangju lie would disappear.
usinkorea: Yep, regionalism is very important. I married a Cholla woman, a ?????? woman. So, not just cholla, but cholla-nam-do and the infamous Yeosu no less.
Regionalism isn’t even close to going away, just look at the last presidential election, regionalism was the most important thing in that election, not anti-Americanism or anything else.
Anyway, it played a big part in what happened at Kwangju.
The following the excerpt from ChoGabje.com, the famous right-wing journalist.
http://www.chogabje.com/board/.....egion=how=
?§¡?³€??¸?????” ?§€?œ??²´?³? ?™€??´?³¼?????? ??¤??Œ?³¼ ?°™??´ ??¤?ª…?????¤.
The defense attorney(for Pres. Chun) explained the Kwangju incident.
?€?11??¼ ?³?????°€ 5??”20??¼ ????¹¨ ?´‘??¼??œ??´?¡œ ?§?????°¨ ?¶œ??™?????´??œ ?§€?œ??²´?³??°€ ?™€??´??????????????¤. ?¶€?Œ€?°€ ?Œ€?Œ€?³??¡œ ?³???½????????”??°, 3?³??????? ?´”?¸?æ?Œ ?????¨?????€ ??¹?³??Œ€??¼ ?????…??´ ?³???½??œ ?¶€?Œ€??¼ ??œ ?³³?œ¼?¡œ ?ª¨??€ ??¤??Œ ????¶€ ?ª…??¹??†??´ 20??¼ ?????????(?²€?°° ???????²°?³¼?????” 5??”21??¼ ????²½ 2??œ) ?¸? ?™¸?³½?œ¼?¡œ ?²??????œ?¼°????????¤.
11th and 3rd special forces divisions moved into Kwangju on May 20th. They lost contact with other groups. 3rd division moved out of the city without waiting for official order.
11?³??????” 20??¼ ????¹¨ ?´‘??¼??œ??´??? ?????…??œ ??? 21??¼ ??€?…??¹Œ?§€ ?…¸????????œ ?°¤??? ??œ????????¤. ?·¸?“¤??€ ?°???? ?ª??¨¹?³? ?????? ?ª?????³? ?ª…??¹?Œ€?¡œ ??°?§?????²Œ ????²??? ????????œ ?²??????¤.
Meanwhile, 11th division marched into the city hall to protect it. They have not eaten nor slept from the morning of the 20th to the evening of 21st.
?????¨????² ?????? 11?³???? 4?°œ ?Œ€?Œ€ 1?²œ1?°±50?ª…??? 15?§Œ ??°?¤‘??´ ?‘??????¸?³?, ?????™?°¨ 2?°± ?Œ€?°€ ????œ???œ ????™???´???????????¤.
The division members totalled 1150 men. They were surrounded by 150,000 people and 200 cars(taxis?).
11?³??????” ??œ?œ??Œ€??? ?°¨??‰ ??Œ?§??œ¼?¡œ ?³‘????“¤??´ ??½??” ?“± ?¸‰?°???œ ????™??????œ ?°œ?????œ ?²??????¤. ?·¸?“¤??€ ?€Œ????¹Œ?§€ ????²??? ???????????¼?€???” ?ª…??¹??? ?”°??¼ ??½??Œ??? ??´??…?“°?³? ?§€??¤??¤?°€ ?°œ?????œ ?²??????¤.
The 11th division had to fire when some of their soldiers were attacked by taxis. They were under order to “take and hold the city hall”. Bravely they carried out the order. In the life-or-death situation, they had to fire their weapon.
?§€?¸? ??±??¤????²Œ ?ª…??¹??? ?????‰??œ 11?³?????°€ ?¹???œ??? ?´??????´ ??????????????¤. ?ª…??¹??? ?????‰?????´ ????²??œ ?????Œ?????” ????????´ ??°??? ?????? ?œ???´ ?°”??Œ?§??????¤?³? ?³´??????¹Œ?€?
Everyone here blame 11th division soldiers who followed their orders to the letter. Do you think it is good for our military’s future when these loyal soldiers are ridiculed?
?§¡?³€??¸?????” ??¸?¡???? ?????´, ?·¸????³? ????¼??? ?????´ ?€??????? ??????œ¼?¡œ ?§Œ?“¤?§€ ?§?????????¼?€??³? ??¸?†Œ?????¤
Defense lawyer told the media and the Korean public, “Do not make our military to be scapegoats”.
The Kwangju incident brought anti-military movement in Korea. Some Kwangju looneys go as far as to advocating dismissal of SK military and opening the border to NK soldiers. It is only Kwangju! Kwangju has as its residents many who advocate this outrageously pro-North view. They denounce the South Korean government and Korean constitution as well. The fact is that they like to overthrow the government.
In addition, they are behind all anti-American movements as well. Why this minority, who are bent on destruction of South Korea, be such an important group at all? The next election will get rid of many of these Kwangju commies and set the country to the right direction.
Korean people knew that Jolla people suffered much under these military rulers. So, they gave a chance for Jolla people to join in the mainstream Korean society. They elected KimDaeJoong and Rho MuHyeun to right the wrongs.
However, these commies in Kwangju want more. They attacked the U.S. military base there yesterday. This is going too far. Korean people will just wait patiently. But, when these commies go way too far, the majority will not stand for it.
I am sure of it.
Usinkorea, yes, regionalism plays a BIG part in Korean politics. Park Chung Hee, Chun Doo Hwan, Roh Tae-woo, and even Kim Young Sam all came from the Gyeongsang region, which became the industrial heartland of the country during Korea’s economic rise. (Roh Moo-hyun comes from there as well, but he doesn’t fit the mould at all!) Still today, the Gyeongsang region (and Gangwon as well in the last general election) is a major source of GNP support.
The Jeolla region is, of course, the home turf of the Uri Party’s supporters these days. It didn’t do so well under previous presidents, but now that Jeolla native Kim Dae Jung has been and gone as president, things have picked up. (Meanwhile, the Gyeongsang region has never really recovered from the economic crisis of 1997.)
I should have written:
(Meanwhile, the Gyeongsang region has never really recovered from the economic crisis of 1997, since it lacked political patronage after Kim Young Sam left office at the end of that year, Roh’s Gyeongsang origins not counting since his power base is in Jeolla, Chungcheong, and Gyeonggi.)
usinkorea wrote:
?€œAnd since I met in the mid to late 1990s more than one or two Kangwon province women who told me their parents had told them ?€œnever marry a Cholla-do man!?€? it isn?€™t difficult for me to imagine the situation?€?.
I am from Gyeongsang region. I used to hear the same thing!
More serious question toward baduk though:
Baduk, did you have any family members or relatives who were killed by NK during the Korean war (or some other time)? If this was the case, I understand.
However, I don?€™t think that we could judge people by label like communist. No matter who they were in Kwangju (they were mostly college students, school kids, citizens) at the moment, they didn?€™t deserve to die like that. Seriously, I am not sure what you mean by communist, but as you claimed, if the Kwangju demonstrators were communists, what did it make a difference to you?
Communists might read Marxism or some other social theories. They could be critical thinkers, as I believe who they really are, but reading or believing in political ideology of communism does not make them dangerous. Communists are not terrorists! I believe that even terrorists should be treated legitimately.
Curious:
Some idiotic Gyeongsang people (or some Han nara supporters) call President Roh traitor of his region. The extreme regionalism in Korea should be given up sooner than later.
June:
My ties are to Gyeongsang Province (Daegu, in fact!), but I agree with you.
We also suffer from regionalism here in Canada (which is where I actually am), but it’s not the same as it is in Korea.
Here is one reason why I am cautious about falling too far toward the “they were just ordinary citizens wanting democracy and peaceful protest” that is the counter-weight to the extreme nature of the events — meaning that the extent of the bloodshed was so shocking, it tends to make any hint of negative view on any of the protesters something discouraged in general —-
Here is one line from a cable from the US gov. in Korea to Washington - “People’s courts have been set up and some executions have taken place.” But later the same official backed up a bit — “An earlier report that the insurgents had set up people’s courts and had carried out executions had not been fully confirmed and should be treated with caution.”
Analytically, the event I’m about to relate shouldn’t factor into my thinking on Kwangju in the 1980 uprising, but it does.
I was in Korea when the Hanchongmyon student org fell out of favor with the average Korean. In was in 1996 or 1997. There was a long protest on Yonsei campus that ended with riot police storming the student center which burnt down in the struggle.
During this spring protest, an auto mechanic that had joined the sit-in protest on campus was beaten to death by student activist leaders.
Since they didn’t recognize him as a college student, they thought he was a government spy, so they took him into one of the buildings, and they interrogated him —- to death…..
The effect in Korean society was immediate and huge. I was really surprised at how quickly the opinion of my students on the university activist groups plunged — and I mean plunged.
Before, the average Korean adult I talked to thought the students of today didn’t have much to protest about since economic prostperity had trickled down and democratic eletions were functioning, but the vast majority of these adults sympathized with the students since many of them had either protested or wanted to protest in the 1980s and 70s.
After the activists beat the man to death, however, the average Korean was very angry at them.
The spring protests were very noticably smaller the next year, and the univeristy activists didn’t really start recovering in favor, as I saw it, until the 2000 water dumping scandal and the SK-NK Summit.
Anway, since I know some Korean university students in the mid-1990s, in a prosperous, democratic Korea felt a need to beat a man to death because of a suspected connection to the secret police or special authorities, how hard is it for me to imgaine what might have been in the minds of student activists in the late 1970s?
June,
I had some of my relatives killed during the war and some forcefully taken to the North. Many intellectuals, doctors and professors were taken to the North. Communists do not recognize personal freedom.
But much more than that, I worry about the future of Korea. Before the Korean War, Communist uprisings were many. Jeju island and Yesu-Soonchun. All bloody uprisings. Thousands were killed on both sides.
Why? Because these naive people truly believed the communism will bring a better world. It is almost a religion to them. “Worker’s Paradise”. Well, it turned out to be “Everybody’s Hell” with the exception of high echelon communist party members.
These Kwangju commies are doing it again. They believe in dissembling military and unification under KJI. They think the North Korea is not as bad as they have heard. They do not mind being the workers under KJI.
They attacked the U.S. base at Kwangju yesterday. The commies will continue this harrassment of the U.S.Armed Forces till all Americans soldiers leave Korea. Then what? A war! Thousands upon thousands will die.
Mark my words.
Remembering the Gwangju Revolt and Massacre
What I said last year still applies.
I have yet to read Wickham’s book. The Korea Democracy Foundation’s book ‘Memories of May’ has a lot of documentary evidence (court testimony of victims and Korean military personel, military documents, etc). Its bias is clear, but it’s still a very useful book, and likely of use when considering the US role in Kwangju. That’s a very difficult subject because there is no definitive ‘here is the proof’ evidence. There are a lot of ‘ands’ and ‘buts’ involved. As far as the Shorrock article, I assume you mean ‘The U.S. Role in Korea in 1979 and 1980′, found here: http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/kwangju3.htm
and not “Debacle in Kwangju,” which is a short (and poorly written) article (it’s no longer online). I’ve been doing research on a piece about the US myself. An excellent book on the subject is Linda Louis’ book ‘Laying Claim to the Memory of May’
By the way, some of the photos here should give some idea of the brutality of the soldiers, which continued even during the time the city was free of the troops (when military violence moved to villages on the outskirts of the city). Even the hardest soul would have to question shooting children playing by the local swimming hole.
http://iam518.com/board/zboard.php?id=photo
And sorry, most of that post was addressed to usinkorea - I look forward to your piece.
“Communists might read Marxism or some other social theories. They could be critical thinkers, as I believe who they really are, but reading or believing in political ideology of communism does not make them dangerous.”
June,
The problem isn’t communism per se, rather it’s the fact that South Korea borders a hostile communist state. In turn, the spread of communist ideologies in the South presents a national security concern, especially when it leads to popular uprisings that have students muttering North Korea-friendly rhetoric while advocating US military withdrawal from the peninsula, both of which conform to North Korea’s utmost wishes.
You also say, communists “really are” critical thinkers. That is a grossly generalized statement that couldn’t be applied to any group of people.
You also cannot possibly tell anyone, especially South Koreans, that “Communists are not terrorists.” What do you call the bombing of Korean Air flight in the 1980’s? The bombing of senior-level South Korean diplomats in Burma? And what might you call Bureau 35 of the North Korean government? Also, you cannot make a clear-cut statement about any group of people saying they “are not terrorists,” because on many occasions “one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.”
I believe Baduk has generalized a bit, but he has a legitimate point. South Korean college student activists were always a concern because of the ideology they tried to spread. And today, we see the daughter of a communist mass-murderer serving as South Korea’s first-lady (as claimed by a KBS documentary that was pulled off the air), not to mention a former “human-rights lawyer” who was a vocal anti-American activist.
Communist ideologies are threats to South Korean national security. The South Korean government should do all it can to combat them, but as Baduk said, the actions of Chun Du Hwan were excessive to say the least.
Another worthwhile read on the subject is “Contentious Kwangju,” a collection of essays edited by Gi-Wook Shin and Kyung Moon Hwang. One of the more interesting points raised is how the collective memory and meaning of 5.18 have changed over time. In particular, basic human rights and survival in the face of repression may have been more important to the protesters than broader notions of democratic reform. Even the terminology has shifted–originally referred to as “the Gwangju incident,” 5.18 was not labeled a “people’s uprising” or “democratization movement” until years after the events of 1980.
Collective memory of those indisputably bloody days (even if exact casualty numbers are elusive) has, over the past quarter century, moved from near embarassment to proud commemoration. The event has even been internationalized. I was in Gwangju last year for a ceremony granting a special 5.18 award (in absentia) to Aung San Suu Kyi for her efforts on behalf of democracy. I think this reflects more on the present state of Korean democracy than it does on what 5.18 actually meant to Koreans in 1980.
Budding Hipster - sounds like an interesting book - thanks for the recommendation. The book I mentioned above, Laying Claim to the Memory of May (more info about which (including the introduction) can be found here )deals a great deal with how the public view of the event has changed - from anniversaries which, under the dictators, relived the anti-dictatorship aspects (the resistance against the army, fighting to the end when the army reconquered the city) to a government co-opted celebration that focuses on the peaceful days of ‘Free Kwangju’ (ignoring the resistance to the state that bookended those days).
She also mentions that the Kwangju City History Committee has published a 15 volume collection of May 18th-related materials, saying she is “fascinated by the possibility that every minute of those days in May [is] now accounted for.” The stories of all the known dead can be found there, such as that of the first person to die - a deaf mute returning home from the bus station who was surrounded by soldiers and unable to understand them; thinking he was screwing with them, they stomped on him until they broke his neck. Some of the witnesses to this were American missionaries such as Martha Huntley, who spoke of the carnage at the Kwangju Christian Hospital on the 21st when M16s were used on the crowds. “In two hours our hospital alone received 99 wounded and 14 dead. Among the wounded was a 9 year old boy who was shot in the legs. Our first dead was a middle school girl; the second was a commercial high school girl who had donated blood at the hospital 15 minutes earlier and was shot by the troops when she was being returned home in a student vehicle. We received 5 patients with spinal cord injuries, many of whom will never walk again. One was 13 years old. We had patients who lost eyes, limbs, and their minds.”
Worth mentioning is that it’s not just the dead who are an issue here - there are still thousands of people who were injured or maimed who are still alive (as well as those that continue to die early deaths from injuries sustained during the uprising).
Mingi:
I have to agree with your analysis. South Koreaindeed, both Koreasare a crucible of ideological tension. What happened in Gwangjuthe brutality with which the movement was suppressedis inexcusable. Nevertheless, the threats to the South’s existence were and are very real, and not at all mere Anticommunist propagandaa point that seems to be conveniently ignored these days.
Thanks for the great link to that book Bulgasari. i’ll have to pick it up.
Bulgasari,
Why do you see only one side of the story? There were casulties in the military as well. When these rioters got the weapon, they know how to use it too, shooting at Korean soldiers.
Don’t give that sob stories. These Korean soldiers are not monsters from hell. They are average, normal Korean young men who were sent to Kwangju to keep law and order.
When these commies start threatening them,(and maybe shooting at them), they had to shoot as well. There were about 25 soldiers dead, I have heard.
Most Koreans are willing to make this “regional communist uprising” into a pro-Democracy movement and forget about it. However, if these commies start another action like they did yesterday of attacking the U.S. base, the public opinion will shift quickly.
These Kwangju and Jolla minority have had their days in the sun. Now they’d better behave. Otherwise, the majority will stamp them out.
Does anyone know of a good website that give a balanced account of what happened?
These Kwangju and Jolla minority have had their days in the sun. Now they?€™d better behave. Otherwise, the majority will stamp them out.
Damn San Diegans!
LOL…I get the reference.
…Not to make light of this topic, and certainly not to poke fun at Baduk (or anyone else).
The following references in Korean. It is written by an anti-military reporter who interviewed both the military and regular citizens. His views are balanced, albeit leaning slightly toward the accusation of the military.
http://www.chogabje.com/board/.....egion=how=
http://www.chogabje.com/board/.....egion=how=
http://www.chogabje.com/board/.....egion=how=
If you read them, you will realize the Kwangju uprising is not a simple “massacre” as you may have thought. Forget about sob stories and think. The citizen had arm themselves and shot at the soldiers. They even shot machines guns. They drove a fighting vehicles. Where did they learn to do that?
I believe some agitators were North Korea spies. They knew exactly how to incite people and how to get it going. They knew how to handle weapons. Professionals!
Wake up to the real truths about Kwangju uprising.
It is hard to know what exactly happened during the Gwangju uprising. The thing I don’t like is all the whitewashing. Young people seem to think it was solely a democratic movement while forgetting about the Pro North Communist elements involved in the movement. They remember the 100s killed by Korean soldiers but not the soldiers who died or the civilians at the hands of the Pro North communists element of the movement. They think the US is somehow to blame for the incident because they didn?€™t do anything to stop it (I really scratch my head on that one) while not doing some introspection and blaming the government and communist elements in the movement using violence-You know, the people that actually shot and killed the people.
If some general decided he didn’t like the President and decided to stage a military coup, I would be on the front lines fighting against it. I doubt I would be asking the political leanings of the person next to me just as long as they were fighting as well.
Just my 2 cents here.
Where did these people learn to fire weapons?
While a knee-jerk answer might involve ‘conscription’ or ‘2 years of compulsory military service every Korean male must serve’, perhaps there truly was a conspiracy afoot…
Forgive me if i ignore your ’sob stories’ about the poor soldiers, who after stomping and bayoneting the shit out of random people for 2 days made people angry enough to fight back.
“Forgive me if i ignore your ?€™sob stories?€™ about the poor soldiers, who after stomping and bayoneting the shit out of random people for 2 days made people angry enough to fight back.”
I lean toward bulgasari’s side, but this is a dangerous simplifiction. I doubt very seriously the non-military side did “nothing” for 2 days…
Which actually brings me to what I wanted to say today. Kwangju didn’t happen in a vaccuum. It was a suprisingly violent event, out of place among others around it, but………in an analysis of the event, you can’t go too long ignoring what was going on in the rest of the society.
As Plunge noted, after one authoritarian ruler was slain, and a short period of uncertainity, another military groups seemed in the process of taking power over through force.
And, in cities all over the nation, different types of groups were restless — like miners in the Wonju area.
Even before the Chun group starting taking power into itself, Korean society was unhappy with what was considered weakness and inability in the post-Park officials in charge. Couple this with unrest popping up and staying all over the country —- with many democratic leaning citizens with real grievances, with many basically OK people fooled into following the lead of un-democratic democracy “fighters”, with many misguided, harmful citizens who were stupid enough to buy the line of bullshit North Korea was giving away, and with some other who received direct orders from Pyongyang
Very well put. This does not excuse at all what happened, but it does help to put it into perspectivein very vivid terms!
Between the clarity and vividness with which you’ve written both here and on the NK Tunnels thread, I may have nightmares tonight…. (That’s a compliment on your writing ability, by the way.)
Plunge
“If some general decided he didn?€™t like the President and decided to stage a military coup, I would be on the front lines fighting against it. I doubt I would be asking the political leanings of the person next to me just as long as they were fighting as well.”
You make a good point. That is what makes Gwangju so complex and confusing. You have three groups of people in the movement, Pro-North Communists wanting to destabilize the government to make an opening for North Korea to take over South Korea. You have some legit “freedom fighters” that IMO made some bad choices when they got caught up in events and decided to make the movement violent polorizing the citizenry even more and making the situation more explosive and deadly. Then you have legit freedom fighters who just wanted to demonstrate peacefully to make a change happen peacefully. Add a dozen other factors and one might start to understand what happened.
The Pro-North communists and demonstrators did have a mutual goal of toppling the Chun government but certainly it does matter for what purpose. If I knew that Pro North communists were involved to destabilize South Korea any way possible and make an opening for North Korea to take over I would not want to be part of it and would find another way to achieve my goals or at least advance my own while limiting the Pro North communists. The Pro-Noth communist part in all this should be remembered as well and share in blame.
This is an excerpt from the articles I quoted: This happened on 19th as the Special Forces 11th division rode into the city.
11?????¨??? ?œ??????œ?œ? ?Œ€??´??´ ?¶?????¡œ??? ??´??´??€??? ??Œ 2?°±??? ?ª…??? ??™????“¤??´ ??Œ?³¼ ?™”??¼?³‘??? ????¡Œ??¤?³? ??¹?????? ??‘?????¼?§€??” ?¸°?¡?????³? ?????¤. ??´?²???€ 11?????¨??? ?³?????¶€?Œ€????“¤??? ????·¹?????¤.
When the trucks reached the ChungJang street, about two hundred students threw stones and Molotov cocktails as recorded in the Special Forces log. This made the 11th division troops mad.
??°??¸????²Œ. ?·¸?²???? ?œ??????´ ?Œ€??¨?????¤?³? ??¤??¤?¡œ ??¿?³? ?????? ?³?????¶€?Œ€????²Œ ??¼?°???¸??´ ???????????¤??” ??° ?Œ€??œ ?°??????´ ?·¸ ?’¤ 11?????¨??? ??‰??™?????? ????²Œ ????????? ??¼?¹œ ????????? ??™?¸°?°€ ????????¤.
The fact that civilians attacked these elite corps troops who are filled with pride was a big factor to what followed.
??¹??œ 11?????¨ 63?Œ€?Œ€ ?†Œ?†???? ?¹€??™?²? ?³‘?????€ ?€???Œ??? ?§??³? ????¶?????§€ ?????? ??°??¸??´ ??´?”” ????²???”?°€. ?³??????°??? ??Œ????§€?³? ?³??³??±´??¼??? ?¶???œ??°??” ?????Œ??€ ??????“¤?¿???´??€ ????°???´ ?“¤?????¤. ??´??´ ??Œ ?¹€??¼??±??´ ?³??“¤??´??¤??´ ??´??Œ???. ?????” ????°???´ ?“¤??”??¼.
Kim DongChul, who was SPF4 belonging to the 11th division at the time, described “Which soldier would not be angry getting hit by stones? Throwing stones at us and burning down buildings! I considered them to be mad mob. I worried what if the North Korea invade at the same time.”
??°??? ?¡¸?³‘?“¤??´??¼ ?ª…??¹ ??´?™¸??? ??´??‡??? ?????”?°€. ????????? ????°œ??œ ????™??§Œ ?³´?³? ?Œ???¨?????” ????°???? ??†?§€ ?????€?°€. ??´?¨Œ?“? ?·¸??Œ??” ??œ?œ?????“¤??? ?????¤????²Œ ????????¤.
We were soldiers acting on orders.(We don’t know politics. We just do our job.) We had to make decision based on what we see. I started hating these demonstrators.
?Œ€?²€?œ¼?¡œ ?°”?????¼. ?¨¸?????¼ ??Œ??¤??¼??” ?§€??œ??” ??†????³? ?·¸??‡?²Œ ????§€ ?§???¼??” ?§€??œ??” ?§?????§€?§Œ, ??¼??¨ ?§??¶™?œ¼??´ ?????œ??? ????§€ ????³?, ????™?§???? ?????¨??? ?°???€?Œ€?¡œ??? ????§€ ?????”??¼?€?
There were no order to bayonet civilians nor to hit them on the head. In fact, we were told not to. But, when we crashed with the angry mob, we could not contain our emotion. It did not go as we trained on the crowd control exercises.”
The Kwangju incident had several points of resolution. The first point was right here. Who were these “students” throwing Molotov cocktails? Throwing heavy stones incurring injuries to these soldiers? Are they regular students? I suspect them to be “professional agitators shipped in from outside Kwangju”. These are out-and-out pro-North student activists travelled from all over Korea to this action.
Kwangju is traditionally anti-government, especially against Park’s regime. When General Chun grabbed the power, these student activists gathered at Kwangju to start a revolution. They were the agitators who used regionalism to their advantage.
Not many of these real “professional” died. They knew when to act and when to disappear. They came, started the trouble, and then left.
These same people broke the second point of resolution a few days later after relative calm has achieved by the 11th division soldiers. These agitators had stolen an APC(Special Forces vehicle) and drove it right threw the resistance line killing a soldier. This action drove the soldiers mad. They went into a “battle mode”.
Kwangju uprising was not a simple story of citizens rising up against brutal soldiers. There were professional agitators who used the regionalism to their maximum advantage. This repeated the same pattern as in Jeju Island uprising and Yesu-Soonchun uprising.
Many civilians, who were misled by these commies, had to be killed when they opposed the Korean soldiers out of regionalism. Korean soldiers, their brothers. Many Special Forces troops were from Kwangju or nearby areas.
However, when these commies told the lie that the troops were from the KyengSang province(the “enemy province” in regionalism), the citizens of Kwangju wanted to kill troops. When they armed themselves, as in other uprisings, the troops had no choice but to shoot at them.
This same sequence of events happened several uprising. 1)Agitators enhance the local grievances. 2) When the troops arrive, these professionals attack the soldiers and then disappear. 3) Soldiers lose control. 4) They attack the citizens. 5) The locals were told that the soldiers are doing this out of regionalism. 6) Citizens arm themselves. 7) Shooting ensues.
Massive deaths.
As Korean people travel more frequently outside their immediate neighborhood and ,through the common belief in some religion, I hope these bloodshed will stop.
However, keep spreading sob stories will not end this cycle of citizenery getting fooled by pro-North agitators. People have to grow up. Kwangju people have to realize what fools they had been. Somebody should tell these people but they are too hurt to listen.
Soldiers are trained to carry out orders in the shortest time. If the people realized that soldiers were there to restore law and order and if they behaved in mature manner understanding the role of the soldiers, many deaths could have been avoided. However, the citizens were not mature enough to see through these pro-North agitators.
I hope this cycle of “soldiers vs. us” be broken. Soldiers are trained to be violent but they are Korean brothers, not monsters from hell.
Without learning the truths from history, Kwangju uprising will be repeated in near future. Maybe in the same city.
I don’t know how the smiling face got in there. Not intentional at all.
I hope Kwangju doesn’t repeat. I hope the Korean War doesn’t repeat. However, lacking the ability to analogize history with cool head unhampered by emotion, Koreans, I am afraid, will repeat these tragedies.
baduk wrote:
These Kwangju and Jolla minority have had their days in the sun. Now they?€™d better behave. Otherwise, the majority will stamp them out.
speaking as a member of “jolla minority,”
UP YOURS, baduk.
Baduk does raise one critical point. In some riots, there are a handful of instigators who get things going.
In Vancouver in 1994, after each of the seven Stanley Cup final games, an increasingly larger and more energetic crowd gathered downtown. After the sixth game, I went downtown to check it out, and I got a seriously bad vibe. Nothing bad happened that night, but there was some kind of bad, weird energy.
Two nights later, the Vancouver Canucks lost the last and deciding game. That night, I did not go downtown. An enormous riot ensued, and the police used tear gas and rubber bullets to break things up. It was ugly.
Anyhow, after the riots, the police claimedand I have no idea how true this is or notthat the instigators were young guys coming in from the ‘burbs who were just looking for trouble, who set things off. The thousands of other people there got caught and swept up in the melee.
The prominent presence the police had established for themselves in the thick of the crowd also seems to have egged some of the rioters on, and the police reacted as much to protect themselves as to control the crowd.
…Anyhow, a lot of people who had just gone downtown to be there and were not expecting nor looking to cause trouble, ended up being tear-gassed, which resulted in a lot of average, taxpaying citizens complaining about how the police handled it.
So it may be possible to draw a parallel to what happened in Gwangju, though of course there’s no comparison in scale, seriousness, the number of deaths (zero in the case of Vancouver), or what was at stake (the very future of the country in the case of Korea).
It might add some to the discussion, though I don’t offer this as an item leading toward any conclusions, if we looked at Ghandi in India. It was not a simple matter either like we got from the movie. There was violence flowing from both sides — well, all three sides — violence between the colonials, hindus, and muslims mixed together. But, there were very famous moments when the people of the movement in India did not respond to very strong provocation — strong violence against their protest or demonstration — with returning violence of their own. They took the bloodshed, and after they turned it against the colonials by using it to gain world pressure and unite more of the society behind their cause. Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil rights leaders did the same in the US. Again, sometimes violence flowed on both sides when the demonstrators were attacked (and perhaps in a minority of cases, when the demonstration leaders picked options that they wanted to lead to violence), but the main thrust of the movement was to respond to violence with determinated peaceful protests.
Easy for me to say when I’m not in a group watching friends and peaceful protesters being shot for nothing, but Ghandi and King not only said it, they preached it.
Compare that with what we have seen just in the last 10 years from South Korea during the period of democratic flowering and wealth….
And look in the decades before that…
And it might not just be a Korean social thing —- that semi-violent riots are a normal form of social expression….
I’d have to look back, but I question whether violence was a normal part of protests through large stretches of the Choson Dynasty.
Protests by idealistic university students is ancient in Korea. The censorate was made up of the more idealistic neo-confucianists and younger officials, and they often shut down the government to proest government policy and individual or groups of officials. And off the top of my head, I think these protests were typically peaceful being usually sit-in demonstrations in front of the royal palace. Sometimes students in the confucian academy (the only university) would also join in.
I could be wrong about the level of violence that might or might not have popped up at traditional scholar protests in traditional Korea — I also question myself at lumping the whole traditional period of Chosun dynasty together — but that is what I remember from reading a good bit about the traditional period.
(—From what I remember, the period of literary purges, the most violent conflict between scholarly types and the government, were government led purges to get rid not specifically the censorate board or university, but to get rid of opposition in general and influencial confucianists whereever they were).
I?€™d have to look back, but I question whether violence was a normal part of protests through large stretches of the Choson Dynasty.
Well, there were peasant uprisings, like the Tonghak movement that led to the Sino-Japanese war….
And off the top of my head, I think these protests were typically peaceful being usually sit-in demonstrations in front of the royal palace.
Well, so the various historical dramas (Yongui Nunmul, for example, which was based on royal chronicles but with a lot of embellishment) would have us believe, though I have no concrete reason to doubt it….
Trying to defend the college students, I participated in student demonstrations for a few occasions in early 1990s. I was a chicken, so I was never aggressive. (Actually, I was very afraid.) Students were trying to be peaceful, but policemen and ?°±?³¨??¨ (special unit for dissipating demonstrators) were so violent. Policemen used the most toxic teargas ever made (made in Korea) in history. They kicked, hit and arrested students. Students had to use ?™”??¼?³‘ (fire bottle with full of oil) in order to protect themselves. As Curious mentioned, demonstrators and policemen got easily emotional. Teargas and fire bottle were not supposed to aim at people, but it happened a few times, and a college student got killed so did policemen.
I think that the student movements are pretty much over in Korea (so did radical liberalism die quite a while ago). Student movements (if they still exist) could be more peaceful. That?€™s why I was so disappointed with recent Ko-dae students?€™ demonstration against Samsung CEO. They could do better than that. Unlike this ridiculous one, the student demonstrators back in 70s, 80s and early 90s contributed to Korean democracy. Especially, those 70s and early 80s demonstrators bid their lives for democracy. There were some mysterious disappearances of a few lead demonstrators (like Kim Hyung wook’s).
I never regret to be part of student demonstration. My experience has helped me to realize and understand the issue of social justice. And I won?€™t exchange the courage and pride that I?€™ve learned from it with anything.
June does raise an important point. Although I have no doubt that leftist ideas were in vogue among many in the student movement, it cannot be denied that they played a critical role in the eventual transition to democracy in 1987when average, everyday, working- and middle-class Koreans came out en masse to support the students’ cause for democracy. The student movement has, since then, largely lost its raison d’etre, unless it is, as Baduk has argued, a continual further push to the left.
‘I lean toward bulgasari?€™s side, but this is a dangerous simplifiction. I doubt very seriously the non-military side did ?€œnothing?€? for 2 days?€?’
Right on both counts. In the interests of space, I elaborate further here.
By the way, I remember seeing a slideshow of photos taken between 1900 and 1905, narrated by Horace G. Underwood (a few months before he passed away). One or two of the photos that stand out in my memory were of ‘rock fights’ in a large field, apparently between two villages. On either side of the field, the two teams hurled hand-sized rocks at each other. I couldn’t help thinking that this traditional activity seems to have manifested itself in similar ways during protests. One wonders if the rocks were supposed to fall between the two teams, much as molotov cocktails are supposed to fall between police and protesters during often highly ritualized battles during demonstrations.
The Gwangju “massacre” is just a modern instance of Silla exerting hegemony over Paekche.
You’re probably not very wide off the mark!
Trying to defend the college students, I participated in student demonstrations for a few occasions in early 1990s. I was a chicken, so I was never aggressive. (Actually, I was very afraid.) Students were trying to be peaceful, but policemen and ?°±?³¨??¨ (special unit for dissipating demonstrators) were so violent. Policemen used the most toxic teargas ever made (made in Korea) in history. They kicked, hit and arrested students.
I’m curious about a few things, June. What were you protesting for or against in the early 1990s? Were you protesting at Ewha? Did you see yourself Ewha students get kicked? Did anybody you know get arrested? Did you almost get arrested?
Did you help make Molotov cocktails?
Students had to use ?™”??¼?³‘ (fire bottle with full of oil) in order to protect themselves. As Curious mentioned, demonstrators and policemen got easily emotional. Teargas and fire bottle were not supposed to aim at people, but it happened a few times, and a college student got killed so did policemen.
No offense, June, but I think you’re being a bit selective with the story here. ??´??œ??´(?), the student who got killed at Yonsei in 1987, was hit by a fragment from tear-gas cannister that had been detonated overhead. It acted like shrapnel, but the cannister itself was not aimed at him.
Contrast that with the students, who would throw rocks and Molotov cocktails (I think that’s what the ?™”??¼?³‘ would be called) directly at the riot-control police, who were conscripts hired to do their jobs. Some of these police caught fire, and some were savagely beaten by university protesters if they somehow ended up behind student lines when the ritual moving forward and backward posturing occurred.
I’m not defending the soldiers in Kwangju (I find Baduk’s one-sided and self-servingly biased descriptions sickening, to be frank) but in the riots of the 1990s, when people were protesting Kim Youngsam joining political forces with Roh Tae-woo, or Roh Tae-woo’s unwillingness to drop the National Security Law, the demonstrations were far more violent than they should be.
In fact, the demonstrations were very un-King and un-Gandhi-like. They were violent not because they prepared for violence by the police, but because they planned to do violence themselves. A Molotov cocktail is an offensive weapon, not a defensive weapon. Whenever I saw one thrown, it was by people running at riot police who were standing still or who were retreating.
I think that the student movements are pretty much over in Korea (so did radical liberalism die quite a while ago). Student movements (if they still exist) could be more peaceful. That?€™s why I was so disappointed with recent Ko-dae students?€™ demonstration against Samsung CEO. They could do better than that. Unlike this ridiculous one, the student demonstrators back in 70s, 80s and early 90s contributed to Korean democracy.
In the 1980s, the perpetual radical student movement may have provided a kernel around which many other people (non-radical students and salaried workers, etc.) joined, which forced Chun Doohwan’s government to allow direct elections, but what did the student movements do to contribute to Korean democracy in the 1990s?
I’m a little bit critical of them because of a few reasons. I think that too many of these recalcitrant groups existed just for the sake of being against the government. Demonstrating for the sake of demonstrating. This in turn has led to the calcifying of political groups who don’t act in the country’s best interests but simply take a side opposing some other side. This is the root of dangerous attitudes against the US, against Japan, etc.
Especially, those 70s and early 80s demonstrators bid their lives for democracy. There were some mysterious disappearances of a few lead demonstrators (like Kim Hyung wook?€™s).
I’ll grant you that: in the 1970s and the 1980s (and the 1960s), there were a lot of people who risked their lives for what they believed. I was disgusted in the 1990s, though, when this “self-sacrifice” started turning into self-immolation and ritual suicide. That is when I turned my back on the student movement here.
When I was still very young and fresh out of college in California, a couple years after these ritual suicide incidents, I returned to Korea and I started working at a Catholic university where one person had committed ritual suicide by jumping off one of the buildings. The priests at this school were so distressed even when re-telling what happened. This disturbed them greatly (suicide is a grave, grave thing to Catholics), even more so because there was evidence that the young man was either goaded by his s??nbae(s) into killing himself for the cause or was even possibly an involuntary suicide (one person who worked at the university at the time did use the word “murder” to put a less fine point on it).
There were people, some ten of them or more, who at various times had set themselves on fire to protest the government. Many of these people were encouraged to some degree to engage in this self-sacrifice. Some of these people, amazingly, survived being set on fire, living their lives forever maimed.
I once had a chance to know (not just meet, but actually get to know) two people who were imprisoned for orchestrating a trip to North Korea to attend an international festival. One of them was the actual person who went. I knew her after she was released from prison. She was an amazingly happy person (happy to get out of prison, I guess). She once told me that she felt betrayed by the student movement she had been part of. They were encouraging her to go to North Korea, pushing her to do it, and they set up demonstrations demanding her release during the trial phase, which gathered lots of attention. But when she was eventually imprisoned, they just forgot about her and her family, because her usefulness to them was over.
It’s entirely possible that she was telling me that at a time of particular bitterness toward them, and it a while ago, so she might not feel that way now, but that’s what she had said.
I never regret to be part of student demonstration. My experience has helped me to realize and understand the issue of social justice. And I won?€™t exchange the courage and pride that I?€™ve learned from it with anything.
No offense, June, but judging from your some of your comments here and there, it sounds like the “social justice” you learned was more like a regurgitation of ivory tower liberalism (”I don?€™t think that we could judge people by labels…”), something which doesn’t always translate into pragmatic solutions. And sometimes makes things worse.
If I were you (and I have sort-of been in your shoes, as much as a Bush-41 era student could be), I would try to challenge (truly challenge) everything I came to “realize” during my time as a student radical.
Two nights later, the Vancouver Canucks lost the last and deciding game. That night, I did not go downtown. An enormous riot ensued, and the police used tear gas and rubber bullets to break things up.
Yeah, like bones and other body parts.
It was ugly.
I thought sports riots in North America were only bad when you’re team won.
Kushibo,
You met Ms. Im SueKyeng? She is some celebrity. She lives in the U.S. now, no longer participating in the student movement.
She went to North Korea and praised Kim IlSung. She alse denounced the South Korean government and the U.S. waiving NK flag. Why didn’t she just stay there? If she was not committed to the communist cause, then WTF she was doing there?
Some people do not know their as***** from their mouth. What was she trying to do anyway? Help NK commies to take over Korea? She certainly helped NK.
Many Commies in SK are in the same situation. They are mental midgets. They have no idea what is they are fighting for or against. Too much soju and they are hopelessly lost.
Baduk wrote:
She lives in the U.S. now, no longer participating in the student movement.
She went to North Korea and praised Kim IlSung. She alse denounced the South Korean government and the U.S. waiving NK flag. Why didn?€™t she just stay there? If she was not committed to the communist cause, then WTF she was doing there?
You have just answered your own question (inadvertently). She was NOT committed to the communist cause. You like to go labeling people communists, but she was not one.
She was putting her money where her mouth was about her opposition to the National Security Law.
Some people do not know their as***** from their mouth. What was she trying to do anyway? Help NK commies to take over Korea? She certainly helped NK.
How? What did they get from it? They got nothing. She was doing it because she thought that this is what South Korea needed: to turn into a normal country that doesn’t see enemies behind every tree.
Many Commies in SK are in the same situation. They are mental midgets. They have no idea what is they are fighting for or against. Too much soju and they are hopelessly lost.
The mental midgets should all be mental giants like you, where from way up high they can see all the enemies down below.
You are a scary person, Baduk: everyone who doesn’t think like you is an enemy who should be locked up or shot as a communist or a muslim terrorist. Invasion is okay if it makes me feel better. Yadda yadda yadda.
“She was putting her money where her mouth was about her opposition to the National Security Law.” - Kushibo
- A housewife was angry of her husband suspecting her of having committed adultery. So, to show how stupid her husband is, she goes and commits adultery with the entire town.
Does this make sense to you? Ms. Im was praising Kim IlSung who started the Korean war which killed hundreds of thousands. Just to show the wrongfulness of the National Security Law? Why doesn’t she work toward changing the law?
Going over to the NK and praising the SOB does not make sense at all. If this make sense to you, why don’t you tell others to follow her footsteps? How about you do this?
Did you hear her praise Kim Ilsung, or did you just read or hear that she had?
She is guilty by association. She read a poem titled “hope for one Korea” at PyongYang theater prior to the starting of an opera praising North Korea.
She went to PyongYang to participate an “internation youth meeting”(Commie fest) sponsored by North Korea.
What do you think? Is North Korea a normal country? Kim IlSung a reasonable man? Two Koreas are still at war technically; we are in armistice. NK can invade the South without warning and they will be only breaking a truce, not starting a war.
During the WWII, if an American young woman attended a Emperor Hirohito’s birthday ball and read a poem, “one unified world”, would that be an act of treason? I believe it is.
Kushibo, we are living in the real world. A young man and a young woman lying naked in the same bed cannot claim that they did not have sex. They can say they like to lie next to each other. Totally platonic love. No intercourse. You believe them? I don’t.
You can claim she went to NK to spread good will and peace to Kim IlSung. However, her action cannot be interpreted as such, unless she is mentally handicapped and does not know what she is doing, when she is doing and where she is doing.
Keep insisting her motive was pure would be stretching it. Korean government gave her only five year sentence because she was a pretty young woman. If a man were in her place, the judge would given him life sentence or even death.
Aiding an enemy is a serious offense. We are at war with the North Koreans. Left-wing catholics like yourself believe her visit had some impact. What impact? How did her action improved the situation?
We are in a make-believe thinking the North has changed. They have not. The