Well, this has people very understandably upset.
From the Korea Herald:
An increasing number of male Koreans with dual nationality have rushed to give up their Korean citizenship since a bill was revised last Wednesday that obliges them to do military service. The legislation is set to be implemented early next month.
The number of people who renounced Korean nationality - recording usually 2 or 3 per day - skyrocketed to 143 on May 10, with males accounting for 99 percent, the Ministry of Justice said yesterday.
Out of 386 people who gave up Korean nationality from April 2-10, 97 percent or 374 youngsters holding American citizenship.
Previously, Koreans who were born overseas were exempt from military duty after cancelling their Korean citizenship.
The new legislation will not allow a male with dual nationality to give up Korean nationality before he finishes military obligations.
The revision aims to thwart the growing number of overseas childbirths to obtain foreign citizenships for military exemption.
According to a leading travel agency, some 3,000 maternity trips were estimated in 2001, 5,000 in 2002, 7,000 in 2003, and reached nearly 10,000 last year.
One opposition party lawmaker wants to get tough on the draft dodgers:
In response to the rush, the Grand National Party lawmaker who proposed the bill, Hong Joon-pyo, said yesterday that he would seek to introduce a tough countermeasure.
“Those children who were born during their parent’s short-term stay [abroad] and choose to renounce their citizenship will be treated as foreigners and lose all rights as Koreans including health and educational benefits,” he said, adding that he would submit the new bill in June. “It’s clear that these people are trying to avoid military service, but all they give as an excuse is education.”
Arguments on Internet message boards tend to favor Mr. Hong’s proposal. “Since these people only give up their citizenship to avoid military service, it’s only fair to strip them of all rights that come with citizenship,” one comment said.
Actually, to more specific about this (courtesy Pressian, who can’t avoid taking a dig at the States), under current law, dual citizenship holders who give up their Korean citizenship are classified as “overseas Koreans.” “Overseas Koreans” cannot vote, run for office, and experience some disadvantages in seeking public or private employment, but the government extends many of the same benefits upon them as it does upon citizens. They are issued special IDs similar to a citizen identification card, are given two-year sojourn periods (which can be extended), enjoy health benefits, and have the same rights as locals in terms of real-estate and financial transactions and other areas of economic activity.
Hong’s proposed legal changes would make those giving up their Korean citizenship clearly to avoid the draft “foreigners,” and hence they would loose many of the privileges afforded overseas Koreans. He would also change the Higher Education Law so that draft dodgers would loose the right to enter local universities through special exemptions (such as language, special skills/talents, etc).
I’m not sure how this is going to affect overseas Koreans, so if you’re an overseas Korean reading this, you may wish to inquire with your friendly local Korean consulate to see how the changes in the Nationality Law might effect you.
59 Comments
And if you’ve got Korean citizenship and are trying to get out of having to go to the army without giving it up there’s always the marines.
As an editorial in the English Chosun pointed out, many of these young people who are giving up their citizenship may be doing so out of pressure from their parents, at the cost of irreversible long-term consequences to their own futures.
Well, it’s another sign of the changing times. I thought army service was as ingrained a part of Korean culture as, well, ??°??? or ??¸?¡œ?†?, but those aren’t very popular these days either.
(For those who are wondering, ??°??? (yeontan) is a type of charcoal briquette once widely used for indoor heating, and ??¸?¡œ?†? (teuroto) is a type of once-pop music now mainly popular among middle-aged and older people.)
…Not a bad thing in the case of ??°??? (carbon monoxide and all that), but for a 34-year-old who grew up in Canada, I honestly can’t get enough of that ?¿??§? music!
hmmmmm
US citizenship or Korean?
whats so hard about that choice?
its a no brainer!!!
Does anyone have a good handle on the benefits of doing military service in Korea? I met two young Vietnamese-Koreans who had both served in the Special Warfare Brigade, who both valued their service. And I briefly met a young Gyopo who was serving in the Korean Marines with the idea that after he went back to the states, he would always have a network of old Marine buddies here in Korea. (And, perhaps, the cachet among his local Korean American community of having been a “Hae Byeong Dae”, which does seem to carry some prstige among Korean males of every age.) Are there any fungible post-service benefits?
on another not these same loonies giving up their citizenship were the sameones running around screaminig dae han min guk with korean flags painted on every bareskin part of their bodies during the world cup
sceaming how great korea is and how patriotic they are
dose of reality i guess!
So when people have “duel” nationality, do the two sides fight it out? Just the sort of retarded non-editing we expect from the Herald (or Times, whatever, SOS).
Lirelou, my observation is that at the very least, it builds character. You can easily tell the difference between a guy who’s done his army service and one who hasn’t yet, because they seem to mature a good 5 or 10 years during their 2 years of service. (Not to say that they’re immature beforehand, but there’s a definite transformation.)
when you see the line around the US embassy every day you get a taste of how patriotic Koreans are
The thing about the Korean Military Service is just *who* has to do it. If you read the papers, the rich and famous get away with not doing it, (unless you’re a baseball player or a semi-popular singer) and the poor have to, as they have neither the connections nor the cash to get out of it.
That, I think is Hong’s point, as he’s trying to level the playing field.
Until Korea changes to an “All-Volunteer Force” they’ll always have this problem. At least Hong is trying to do something about it.
America needs to pull out of Korea immediately. Why should American boys defend these people a day longer when their own boys refuse to defend their precious “Uri Nara?” Korean guys are wimps anyway. I watch plenty of Korean dramas on Honolulu’s KBFD. Those guys are a bunch of mama’s boys that just want their egos stroked. Hell, just this week on some Korean drama I watched two Korean guys take on a 1/2 dozen black gang bangers in NYC, and won!
Great, if they want to give up their Korean citizenship I say great and take away all the other benefits that come with it. Maybe if things get bad enough in Iraq, King George the “W” could draft them into Uncle Sam’s Army, now wouldn’t that be the shits?
Funny stuff from a Chosun Ilbo editorial:
How can these parents have found it so easy to make the decision for their children in the few days since the bill was passed?
– Because they made the decision the day their children were born.
Are they so sure that being Korean is not worth enduring military service for two-odd years?
–Being Korean isn’t worth enduring a 10-minute wait in line. Much less two years of eating shit. Literally.
Is the Republic of Korea valued so little that they need not fear that their children will turn round and ask them, ?€œWhy did you deprive me of my citizenship??€?
–It’s clear that a large majority of nationalistic, America-hating parents want nothing more than for their children to escape Korea and become American. And their children will turn around and ask them, “Why did you wait two days before revoking my citizenship. Couldn’t your ass get down there on day one?”
~~~~
The hand wringing by the press and politicians is hilarious, if only because it highlights how ignorant they are of the overwhelming mood of their fellow citizens. It’s like the fucking Titanic. Everyone’s running over their neighbors and friends trying to get off the boat, and for some reason the ignorant minority (with columns to fill) are standing around talking about what a great boat it is and what a bright future it has, dumbfounded as to why everyone’s jumping ship.
Wake up assholes. When push comes to shove, Koreans will push and shove anyone and anything in their way to get away from the country they despise so much, can’t endure living in, and are horrified imagining their children living in, yet they can’t stop bragging about and waving its flag.
Yankee go home. But leave immigrant visas for me and my family on the counter on your way out.
ha ha ha, god that is so true, the arrogance and hypocrisy in Korea, hate the US but have your babies there, send your kids there to go to school and get citizenship so you can live there, now watch the usual idiots living in the US who badmouth the country go on about the ex-pats who see through their bullshit
Well, the Chosun Ilbo is a conservative paper that is largely critical of the trends you’re decrying, and they have no illusions about the way things are going right now. And the actions of a minoritythose whom you’re criticizingshould not be taken to represent a broad social consensus. Indeed, in the recent national by-elections, the conservative opposition Grand National Party swept all the seats up for grabs. Not everyone is clamouring to get out, and there are lots of people in various walks of life who work every day to improve things.
no I’m talking about a couple of idiots who criticize the US constantly here on this board but live there, then go apeshit when somebody here points out the reality, they don’t even know Korea any more. tell me why Korea has the most people applying to live in the US if this is paradise
You guys come off as some seriously jingoistic chest-beaters. The US is not all that great, but having to waste 2 years of your life scrubbing toilet bowls is entirely pointless. Modern warfare depends on technology, the conscripted forces in Korea would do little more than serve as cannon fodder. South Korea should expel all US forces, restart their nuclear program (you know they could have a 20 missle arsenal ready in a couple of years) and cancel this whole conscription nonsense. MAD worked well enough for Reagan it should be good enough for ?…¸??´???.
Life in Korea can be competitive and hard. Many people probably want to leave because of the long hours of overtime they have to work, the intense pressure their children go through for years studying to get into the right schools, the high cost of housing, and so on. That said, there are many things that Koreans can be proud of and that we as foreigners can respecttheir rich cultural traditions, the country’s natural beauty, and so on.
Koreans should not have nuclear weapons. Period.
And when these Koreans err Americans have their visa’s removed or for some reason can no longer live or work in KOrea how will they survive with the likely poor English skills. These parents are far too short sited about thier childrens futures.
Koreans with nuclear weapons? hell I take back everything I said, come on down and live in Koreatown free of charge
Why shouldn’t Korea have nuclear weapons? I think they should build an arsenal of neutron bombs and wave them around in a phallic fashion the way the US does.
curious, Korea is no harder to live in than anywhere else, you bought the propaganda, and I do respect most Koreans, they work their asses off, you’re right, but the hypocrisy in Korea is amazing sometimes, “look at us, we made this country all by ourselves,” give me a break. the cultural things are alright, I wouldn’t say amazing, that’s kind of a stretch
sounds like you have missile envy kemozone
Why shouldn’t Koreans have nuclear weapons? Would you let a child own a Bowie knife? This is elementary.
Oh man, I know there are typos everywhere, but really: DUEL means “a prearranged, formal combat between two persons, usually fought to settle a point of honor” and DUAL means “composed of two usually like or complementary parts.” The Englishee-language papers here are an embarrassment.
Blinger, not sure if you have sons (or a couple of girls?!?), but any word on how this affects mixed-race boys with dual citizenship?
In the past, most of the people I met have said that my son would not be ABLE to enter due to his parentage. Really curious if someone has any info on this.
“sounds like you have missile envy kemozone”
‘What, they’ve got bigger dicks than us? BOMB THEM.’ - George Carlin
I don’t have the cite at hand, but I have read the section of the Korean Military Manpower Act (or however it is properly translated into English) that describes Korean citizens of mixed racial heritage as “??œ2????¼” for purposes of military service and hence exempt, along with such others as those who did not finish high school.
I leave it to others to draw the obvious conclusions.
dogbert, that’s what i’ve heard in the past as well, but are there any current changes (this new law) that change this?
yeah Carlin’s funny but you don’t see the US blowing up African countries, just kidding folks
I’m American. I don’t have missle envy. After 9/11, there was so much screaming about how the US should use their nuclear arsenal to turn the Middle East into glass. Support was terrifingly high for the use of nuclear weapons, almost indiscriminantly, against whatever region was singled out for responsibility. How is that any less childish than a nuclear South Korea? Why does everyone seem to think the US is somehow more responsibile and deserving of the right to possess nuclear weapons? Yes, the one country who has actually used these weapons in war should most certainly be the leader for control over their spread. That’s very logical.
I would have thought it somewhat out of fashion to argue _for_ the spread of nuclear weapons. Curious position.
kromo you’re full of it, I’m from the US and I didn’t hear anything like what you say. Sure some Pentagon people said let’s make some new nukes, the bunker busters, and a lot of people are against it. in Korea there are no checks and balances, just a lot of hotheads who would probably drop one on Tokyo tomorrow if they could
According to this article printed last February, there is a proposal to revise the law to allow Korean citizens of mixed ethnicity to serve in the Korean military.
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=100
looks like your board is coming to an end, mr marmot.
“We’re going to nuke Mecca, we’re going to really destroy you guys, you camel jockeys,”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2221680.stm
Back to lirelou’s original question (#6) about tangible post-service benefits, it’s quite well-known that males who have done military service automatically get something like 5% extra marks in job-entrance exams and things like that. I don’t know specifics, can do so if anyone wants, but any Korean friend can confirm it for you.
Has a greater impact than you might think. For instance…with things like that so prevalent and taken for granted here, the government doesn’t realise that minor changes to pretty minimal maternity benefits and provision of childcare facilities is never going to make career-minded women have more children and raise Korea’s miserable birth-rate.
My first ever comment here, please be gentle!
kromo one quote from an anonymous email in an English news story? Sounds like you’re a little desperate
It’s all over major message boards which have archives back to 2001-2002. Fark.com was full of comments like that around that time.
Thanks for the info on mixed-race boys dogbert. I’ll have my wife read the story. Have some serious thinking to do in the near future.
Anyone else with news, please comment.
Seeing as I’m still here, may as well make another comment, what the hell.
About Curious’s comment (#9) that military service builds character, I agree, and I’m not saying that it’s always negative…although I will stick my neck out and say that I find Korean 20-somethings generally immature (will explain why some other time) so many guys really do need it…but ask any Korean female twenty-something who decided to stick with her boyfriend during his military service, or mother whose son is doing it, and a big worry is that no matter how sweet and innocent he was beforehand he’s ready to be the typical sexist daily soju-swilling absentee-father Korean salaryman we all know and love when he comes out.
Expat friends of mine who’ve taught in the Czech Republic tell me that Czech guys are exactly the same, and they also have military conscription there, so maybe there’s a relationship? Don’t know about anywhere else, so will stop there. What do others think?
yeah yeah message boards blah blah, it’s not the US government, and like I said a lot of people are against upgrading or whatever the nukes, me included. back to Korea, it would be insane to let nukes remain here, China and Japan would develop their own right away and the chance they’d get used would go way up
China would develop their own?!!??
oh shit you caught one slip up, and ignored my entire point, well done kromo
From the JoongAng……
http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....09041.html
“Those children who were born during their parent’s short-term stay [abroad] and choose to renounce their citizenship will be treated as foreigners and lose all rights as Koreans including health and educational benefits,”
Is it only me, or does using the foregner card to place fear into Koreans renouncing their citizenship, a good idea? Gave me a couple of thoughts. I am a foreigner, and understand I don’t have rights in Korea, and I am OK with that, but still it doesn’t sound very nice of them.
Kromozone raises a good point about scrubbing toilets. I’ve got nothing against scrubbing toilets, and have done a few in my own time, but there does seem to be a tendency in conscription armies to waste manpower performing “horse-holding” duties. Lots of drivers polishing shiny sedans, lots of office staff, lots of grass cutting, gardening, and rock painting, with a fair percentage people doing jobs that aren’t related to closing with and killing their country’s enemies (as opposed to those who are, such as medics, mechanics, cooks, pay and supply clerks, and everyone else keeping that guy (or girl) out in the trenches with his bayonet fixed). A professional army does tend to cut the nonessential troops down, but it also tends to limit the overall makeup of the services to specific socio-economic classes. Interestingly enough, the increase in the Korean-American population in the United can be tracked by an increase of Koreans in the service academies. I remember looking at a 1984 West Point graduates list that had over 40 Korean names on it, which was particularly noteworthy when compared to Chinese, Japanese, or Vietnamese-American names. In fact, I’d expected to see a Korean-American general by now. Apparently, though, the numbers which stay for the long term are low. Still, it shows a value for military service that I assess as healthy to the republic. With all the faults of a conscription army, it does educate and interest a greater spread of citizens in their country’s defense affairs. And not always in ways that the Generals welcome.
Uchronia wrote: “Seeing as I?€™m still here….”
For a new commenter, you have impressive staying power!
I know someone who was doing his stint in the Czechoslovak army in 1989. When he entered the army, everyone addressed everyone else as “comrade.” Overnight (when the government fell), it became “sir.”
Regarding the change in character, I was thinking more of the positive aspects (as I recall I was not exactly a well-rounded individual at the age at which I would have entered the army, had I been Korean).
Blinger, not sure if you have sons (or a couple of girls?!?), but any word on how this affects mixed-race boys with dual citizenship?
I have one daughter, but have friends with a mixed son. I’ll also have my wife look at the link dogbert linked to. Like Jmac asked, anyone with solid info on this please share. I might have a second kid and it could become important.
Oh, men, this is not easy!
My younger brother served the military several years ago. Just before he got drafted, the notorious Kang-reung/ East Sea submarine battle (?°???‰ ??™??´ ?¶? ????????¨ ????±´) occurred and claimed dozens of young soldiers?€™ lives. My father used to believe “all proud young Korean men should serve the military for their country.” However, the death of the soldiers was a wake-up call. It was too late anyway, and my poor brother was drafted. Fortunately, he got a good position (driver) and drove fancy cars for officers and rarely trucks.
Personally, I am against draft system. Korea should think about a new military system like professional military system. As long as draft system continues, some Koreans try everything to save their sons (Korea is heavily male-preferring society too!). But it is somewhat understandable, especially after reading this piece:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....50039.html
It seems that the Korean military finally opens its door to mixed race, but ?€œDon?€™t ask Don?€™t tell?€? still stands?€?
I recall reading that article. It’s pretty sad.
I recall reading that article. It’s pretty sad.
Wait. If they are foreign citizens they should pay -3% tax just like other foreigners, right? Unless they start making over $70k/year and then they are supposed to report their income to the IRS. That doesn’t sound so bad, does it?
?Œ€-??œ-??¼-??!!!
Expats only have to report their income to the IRS if it’s above $70K? Sweet deal! Or is that only if you don’t have financial interests back in the States while abroad (as is the case for us Canuckleheads)?
Three reasons why military service should be banished:
1) It’s a huge drain on the economy. 2 years away from productive work and education, often smack dab in the middle of college. Imagine a Chinese language major returning to his 3rd year of university after 2 years of guard duty - he’s starting over from scratch
2) It stifles individuality. If the nail that sticks out in Korean society gets hammered back into place, the military-service hammer is nuclear-powered. The standard deviation of Korean male personalities isn’t nil by any means, but it must certainly be pinched
3) It betrays the spirit of the sacred Sunshine Policy
But unless something significant happens (ie the fall of North Korea), nothing will change the system. When backed into a wall (such as needing loans from the IMF) Korea can change DRAMATICALLY for the better (financial sector reform, lowered restrictions on foreign investment). But given a choice, Korean consensus always values conformity and ??¼?¡±??? ????¡´??? over pragmatism and economic advance.
Waidaminute… Is there any data available on how many sons of Parliament members have done their duty ?€“ or how many haven’t? I mean, it’s a recurrent issue there, right? People getting caught giving/accepting bribes for military duty exemption.
Would be fun if that Hong Joon-pyo character had a son, or nephew, or whatnot, who has been exempted…
It seems that the Korean military finally opens its door to mixed race
Does that mean that Koreans in general are finally going to quit abusing those who are ??¼???? More to the point: God save them in the military; in an organization where even ‘?§??§œ’ Koreans are abused, what chance would they have?
Thanks for the article, Dogbert…
Actually I was of by 10k