These are a couple of the reasons to avoid juicy bars.
Juicy bars/girls
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89 Comments
“Outpost of tranny”??
In my first year in Korea, I inadvertantly found myself in the juicy bar situations twice. The first time, I really didn’t know what was up, though the second time I had a sneaking suspicion.
Apart from the human trafficing situation, these places are really weird. I don’t endorse, but think I understand prostitution. You pay for a service.
But you pay some ho to talk to her? Why? In the hopes that if you buy her enough drinks that you can then pay her for sex?
As a university teacher, I’ve had suspicions about a few students, but I don’t think I understand the culture enough to make any really accurate accusations.
Anyway, juicy girls: what’s the attraction.
Women: Don’t beg ‘em, buy ‘em.
After reading 1 of those links and coming across the message board where the ex-wives of the GIs discuss their situation, I honestly am alot more sympathetic to a US pullout of Korea.
That situation is really abominable and kudos to LaPorte for making some attempt to fix the situation.
I wish some more American govt officials would draw attention to the human trafficking and postitution surrounding the US military bases and make some demands from the Korean gov’t - that they enforce their own laws.
(Note: this stuff is bad everywhere and I’m not singling out Korea… I know it exists in the US too and it should be stopped there too - large scale human trafficking should be a death penalty crime considering all the lives that get ruined, and the potential for infecting someone with AIDS)
Yeah.. I agree with migun. Korea needs to really bear down on human trafficking. While the situation has improved it still has a long way to go.
Anyway there was an interesting story on CNN about human trafficking. Here’s the link:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WO.....index.html
Asia is getting a bad name because of human trafficking. Korea and Japan should do something about it, maybe share information and police power on this issue.
Uhh, human trafficking? Yes, all those ‘Won girls are there against their will — NOT. It doesn’t happen here in Seoul and the USFK is responsible for a tiny fraction of prostitiution in this country. Get over it. 99.99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans.
I saw it on CNN - it’s gotta be true!
Gravatar
I give up.
99.99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans.
I think this bears repeating.
I think this bears repeating.
I agree.
99.99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans.
My question with regards to this is a statistical one. What is it if a Korean-American partakes of this? Even more complicated, a KA soldier in the US Army? Worse still, a KA in the Korean Army (not that I know of any of these, but hypothetically)?
At any rate, it’s all just sad.
Soldiers have been having sex for thousands of years. Suddenly, because of some FOX news distortions and a few religious fundamentalist in congress, the military is on a moral crusade.
This assault on human trafficking is flawed. First, it assumes prostitutes are mostly human trafficking victims; not true. Second, only a small percentage of prostitution in Korea is related to USFK. There is a far bigger segment of the sex industry servicing Korean men than servicing GIs.
The actions being taken by USFK to curb human trafficking amount to hitting a tack with a sledge hammer. Under the current rules a service member who is five minutes late getting back to the gate has not only violated the ridiculous curfew rules, but is guilty of a “prostitution related offence” according to USFK.
Busting soldiers for being out after midnight does almost nothing to curb human trafficking, but it does give a distorted picture of US forces in Korea. Of the hundreds of “prostitution related” arrests USFK claims, most are curfew violations. The whole “crackdown” is some twisted political thing.
Wedge wrote:
99.99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans.
i know that ‘99.99% of…’ is often used figuratively, but realisitically, that may be way off base by 100 times or more.
1% of the country is ‘foreign.’ and about 10% of that is u.s. military.
so if ‘foreigners’ go to prostitutes in similar numbers as koreans (which is probably not the case; i would say that, for example, an english teacher from the u.s. or canada which makes up a large portion of the 1% is probably far less likely than a korean ’salaryman’ of a similar age), then we have 99.00%, not 99.99% (.00 is to show comparison, not to represent significant digits). or for the foreigners, that would be 1.00 percent versus 0.01%, which is 100 times more.
but where these numbers are probably more relevant is in whom they are boffing. the 1% of the population who are ‘foreigners’ are nowadays probably over-represnted in the korean sex industry. even if they are only 10% of the sex industry workers, that’s 1000 times more than the .01% you suggested.
i don’t know how many have been coerced into their jobs or not. tactics in both japan and korea reportedly involve luring people with promises of other types of work (not coincidentally, this is how the comfort women were often mobilized), then these women find their passports are taken away and they are threatened with real bodily harm. if they escape, their ‘friends’ will be severely punished.
someone running around in apparent freedom in such a district may not have the freedom to make it all the way to an embassy, airport, or sympathetic government agency. i would imagine korean immigration might initially come down hard on someone giving such a report, since the same claim could be used to avoid paying a hefty fine for overstaying a visa.
but immigration is, i think, requiring that people start showing up in person to get i.d. cards, visa extensions, etc., which i was told was aimed at making sure that the people who are getting the entertainment visas or whatever are there voluntarily (this is not foolproof, but it is a little harder for an ‘employer’ to hide unwilling sex industry workers if he (or she?) has to trot them in front of immigration officials to get an i.d. card or visa extension). it’s also easier for such a person to speak up then (although there may still be reasons it is difficult).
while it’s true there are lots of people who are willing providers of sex in the sex industry, don’t kid yourself that they are necessarily the norm or that the plight of the unwilling is not such a big deal. there is a modern-day ‘comfort woman’ situation going on, and by going to the sex industry for sexual release, you are making that happen. we may not be able to stop it completely, but you can control your actions.
(’you’ is not wedge, but a general reference to people in general).
mac wrote:
The actions being taken by USFK to curb human trafficking amount to hitting a tack with a sledge hammer. Under the current rules a service member who is five minutes late getting back to the gate has not only violated the ridiculous curfew rules, but is guilty of a ?€œprostitution related offence?€? according to USFK.
gotta teach that tack a lesson it won’t forget!
is this really true? or does the person have to be caught after curfew and be in or near a known red-light district or a place that is part of the sex industry?
Busting soldiers for being out after midnight does almost nothing to curb human trafficking, but it does give a distorted picture of US forces in Korea. Of the hundreds of ?€œprostitution related?€? arrests USFK claims, most are curfew violations. The whole ?€œcrackdown?€? is some twisted political thing.
does this really happen the way you’re saying it?
this seems like it would be just handing the anti-usfk forces a stick to beat over usfk’s head. they would create another one of those phony statistics like the 30,000 ‘crimes’ committed by g.i.’s which were something like 90% traffic violations.
that is right. I agree that this is something that needs to be cleaned up all over the world. I think it is beyond rediculous to even suggest that USFK is the root cause of this problem. From a statistical (not that I have actually gathered the data and done the analysis but…) point of view, I suspect that if one were to calculate the whore concentration per square foot in areas purported to cater to that activity that the areas that focus on Korean clients would far outweigh those that cater to the US soldiers. Places like Yongsan station, Youngdeungpo station and the famous 588 area are akin to warehouse stores compared to hole in the wall mom and pop shops that are visible around the USFK bases. While I do not consider myself a connoisseur of these services nor do I claim to understand the macro or micro economics of it but I am familiar enough with Seoul and the Songtan area to know that the areas that cater to Koreans is far larger than the ones that cater to US soldiers. The part of that argument that more offensive than the rest is that I have not even factored in the massage parlours, tea rooms, room salons or baber shops that are liberally scattered around ANY city here. Bottom line is that just because the woman is not in a glass window with a red light doesn’t mean that she is not for sale.
Come to think of it, isn’t it that way for many women you might meet at any club. The more you look like you make and the more you buy them things, the more apt they are to reciprocate?
I know plenty of women that have this mind set. I am not labeling them whores but in both cases money is a motivating factor and if the money dries up, so do the ‘favors’. There are women that will divorce their husbands to find other rich husbands simply because they feel that their current husband is not providing the lifestyle they feel they should enjoy. No, prostitution is just part of a bigger problem of deteriorating family values. I agree that it should be stoppped and that USFK should do what it reasonably can to stop it but I think it is unrealistic to think they can stop it all even around the bases, let alone the rest of Korea.
Nora makes an excellent point about the comfort women parallel… Koreans decry comfort women yet perpetuate that same crime on a massive scale RIGHT NOW.
And I never suggested the USFK causes prostitution in Korea. If anything the Korean prostitution culture is so ubiquitious that the USFK could never really stop it. the human trafficking prostitution problem can only be solved when Koreans resolve to stop all the whoremongering in their country.
Will *that* ever happen?
James wrote:
…calculate the whore concentration per square foot…
Did you just take an otherwise thoughtful sentence and say ‘whore’?
Well, I guess if we keep talking about whore concentration around US military bases, anti-American media will get a hold of it, like Hankyoreh or al Jazeera.
Then we’ll have… a whore ratio al Jazeera story.
They can call it “Ragged Dick.”
At the risk of sounding pedantic. In a free society (which USFK represents), what two (or more) adults choose to do in their do in their own private space, be it an hourly rent or residential, is their own business. And if the activity they are engaged in is sexual, that is still their business. The sexual drive is a basic human urge, and to my knowledge, there is nothing in either the constitution of the United States or Korea that says: Thou shalt not commit adultery. Laws against human trafficking should be enforced, but lumping human trafficking with prostitution is gross oversimplification. I find it telling that an Army that supposedly contains a higher percentage of ?€œborn-again?€? Christian generals than previous generations should have given us Abu Ghraib. Perhaps the answer here is to secularize the armed forces by abolishing the chaplain?€™s corps, or at the very least, making them enlisted personnel, where they can really get a worm?€™s eye view of what life in the armed forces is like.
In my first year in Korea, I inadvertantly found myself in the juicy bar situations twice.
How does that happen inadvertently?
I guess you were a trafficked human.
lirelou:
…to my knowledge, there is nothing in either the constitution of the United States or Korea that says: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Adultery is illegal in Korea.
http://www.economist.com/World.....id=3778891
That said,
In Asia’s third-largest economy, the sex industry accounts for over 4% of GDP, says the Korean Institute for Criminology. At current prices, that figure would be consistent with one in five South Korean men aged between 20 and 64 buying sex four times a month.
Now that is an analysis. Another way to look at it is that given the high probability that some men do not utilize these services, those that do must do so with considerable frequency.
“At current prices”
I don’t know how valid the “at current prices” calculation is. My understanding is that a lot of the sex industry money is made in the form of alcohol consumption and other activities associated with the entertainment facilities where the women work. So while it might be 50,000 won a pop (?) to have sex with a prostitute, some people are spending 1 million won a night for six or seven people to go out, which is several times more than that “per pop” figure.
A lot of companies work this into their “entertainment budget.” My ex-girlfriend worked for a major pharmaceutical company and they used that money to “entertain” clients from overseas, including from the head office in Baltimore. Virtually all of the money would be considered part of the sex industry, if I recall correctly.
A major figure at the Korea Criminology Institute is a former “professor” of mine and we discussed this a bit. A good guy who has a pragmatic sense of what’s going on. He wanted me to write a paper on GI-related crime. I resisted, but he insisted, and it was to confirm his own thoughts: that GI-related crime is dramatically overhyped.
High-end ?°???¨ and ????????? room salons generally run from about 500,000 to 1,000,000 per head. ?¶??°½??™ (sp) is the cheapest you will find, you can get away with 450,000 for you and a friend, but your time with the entertainers is limited to about an hour (I never kept track). The high-end places do more entertainment, which lasts longer, and then an extra 400k or so for an all night fee if the girls are willing. A girl I knew who worked at ?????¨2 in ????¼??™ said she made 6-8,000,000 a month, her apartment and ?ª…?’? collection certainly backed-up her financial claims.
lirelou,
You are mistaken. There is “adultery” law in Korean legal system and sometimes it is enforced. With so much illegal sex going on, it may be hard to believe, but it is true.
Recently (one month ago?), I read a woman was found guilty of this law and sentenced nine months in prison. In the discussion board following the article some Koreans believed the law is too archaic and have to be abandoned. Yet, some (mostly women) were adamant that this law should be enforced.
With this anti-adultery law and the anti-prostitution law that has recently enacted, Korea can measure up to any Christian nation in terms of sexual morality. Finally Korea is rising above the animal lust and commercial sexual degradation that the Japanese have brought to the country.
I have always felt that forced prostitution under conditions of virtual slavery is a serious problem, no matter what the nationality of the customers is, and that Korea should take drastic action against it — and that they have little right to complain about the ‘Comfort Women’ historical tragedy until they do.
The only really sane, humane and effective way to do this is to decriminalize all forms of prostitution except that of minors, let adults do as they please. But crack down hard on human trafficking — it should be a serious felony to withhold anyone’s passport (including English teachers!), compel anyone into prostitution (or any other job), charge high interest rates on “loans” for providing jobs or clothing/room/etc, use violence against any employee, and all etc. With real serious investigation and prosecution of this, no payoffs from the gangsters accepted.
Unfortunately, I doubt that Korea will ever take this path during my lifetime…
Good Argument David.
I suppose there are two issues here: false imprisonment and the fact that in Korea that doesn’t seem to be against the law despite the fact that most of us feel very strongly that this should stop. The second issue is what part extramarital sex plays in society-whether it be simple mutually consensual or whether the exchange of money is a condition of sexual favors. Does it offer any benefit? is there a downside? Obviously there are moral implications to consider and from a social point of view, it might ccontribute to the spread of STDs and make real intimacy difficult for those involved in this practice but other than that? The lure of percieved easy money would undoubtedly influence some peoples behaviour and there would be those that would choose this as a career path instead of getting an education. What is the cost to society though? I agree with David, morals cannot be legislated so it makes sense to decriminalize the industry and control it rather than keep it criminalized and have organized crime control it and in doing so, intimidate and influence police and public officials. I think the key here is how it is decriminalized and controlled and how its affects on society are limited.
Kushibo and KrZ: you’re information’s spot-on for for Apku, but those aren’t juicy bars you’re talking about - they’re high-end room salons and ?…¸????°?.
I can’t believe that no one’s mentioned the single greatest reason to stay away from juicy bars: they’re lame and boring. IMO, juicy bars are hardly cool places to hang out. They?€™re more like someone?€™s basement, or someone?€™s remodeled basement, except there’s a steep charge for the drinks. Oh, and there’s a prostitute…
BTW, gbh, is that a picture from Palenque or Yaxchilan in Mexico?
Dunno, jyc. I believe it’s an image of a lord in Xibalba. I just like Mayan art - I’d guess you do, too
OK, 99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans. Whatever. And since when is a military fighting force supposed to be a bunch of eunuchs? This is unprecendented in history. I can see those recruiting posters: “Uncle Sam needs YOU to keep your pants on and return to barracks by 1 AM or else!” That’ll attract a lot of recruits.
Hey all we ask the recruits is that they stay out of trouble and that they throw a hat on the hog before they get down to business, for everyone’s protection. Problems are caused when they start to present an image of blatant disregard for the need to be discreet. This can take many forms not limited to getting drunk and fighting in the street, beating prostitutes, murder in a drunken rage, dragging them around caveman style in the middle of the street and the off colored remarks. People have a hard time caring about what they do not know exists.
Nobody accidently buys a juicy a W10,000 shot of pineapple juice. I remember my first Juicy, Chong Ha, in Songtan when I was stationed at Osan AB. I only bought two different Juicies drinks, but I got out of that game before I spent more than W100,000. It’s all for fun and so few GIs are bang’n these girls. I know because I’ve been there. I was there in 96-97 when the Philipnos started taking over and that is 100% to blame on the Koreans themselves that bring them in. These girls are just modern day Gisaeng.
wedge wrote:
OK, 99% of it is Koreans boffing Koreans. Whatever.
no, wedge. you still don’t get it. well, you do get that the sex-seekers may be only 99% and not 99.99%, but you still don’t get that the sex-providers are not even 99%. maybe not even 90% right now.
so it’s not just koreans boffing koreans. korea has taken an already serious problem (forcing, kidnapping, or coercing korean women into the sex trade), and then internationalized it, with many foreign women as the victims. (please no one go off on how there are a lot of women there voluntarily because they can make a lot of money; i know that).
And since when is a military fighting force supposed to be a bunch of eunuchs? This is unprecendented in history. I can see those recruiting posters: ?€œUncle Sam needs YOU to keep your pants on and return to barracks by 1 AM or else!?€? That?€™ll attract a lot of recruits.
i thought a major aspect of military service was supposed to be about discipline.
anyway, if we can’t recruit people just because we put prostitutes off-limits to the military, what on earth does that say about u.s. society?
i suppose if there really is a downward trend in recruitment because of this, the military can end its ridiculous ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ half-measure.
Waiting for the Marmot’s post on a couple of reasons to avoid marriage.
Before you laugh, remember that nuptial ties are also often tied to human trafficking.
you mean forced marriage? that’s actually a serious problem among some hmong immigrants in california.
and in korea marriages are arranged and maintained as a form of semi-voluntary servitude. (there are rumors that ‘taegukki’ actress lee eunju committed suicide due to depression brought on by her family’s pressure for her to marry a super-rich chaebol-related person, which is why her family publicly is trying to deflect suspicion by blaming her depression on her recent sexually charged movie roles.)
you mean forced marriage? that?€™s actually a serious problem among some hmong immigrants in california.
Yes. Though I was thinking more about North Korean refugees in China.
We should all vow to refrain from getting married until such forced marriages come to an end.
nora sumi park asks/states:
does the person have to be caught after curfew and be in or near a known red-light district or a place that is part of the sex industry?
Answer: at some bases all you need to do is walk up to the gate at 5 past midnight and you are arrested. You the become one of the “prostitution related offence” statistics
this seems like it would be just handing the anti-usfk forces a stick to beat over usfk?€™s head. they would create another one of those phony statistics like the 30,000 ?€?crimes?€™ committed by g.i.?€™s which were something like 90% traffic violations
That is why I said it is a twisted political thing. As best I can tell, by saying we arrested X many hundred GIs, USFK leadership can demonstrate how hard a stance they are taking. The reality does not matter. Opinion amongst the South Korean media and congressional fundamentalist in the US is what matters.
mac answered:
nora sumi park asks/states:
does the person have to be caught after curfew and be in or near a known red-light district or a place that is part of the sex industry?
Answer: at some bases all you need to do is walk up to the gate at 5 past midnight and you are arrested. You the become one of the ?€œprostitution related offence?€? statistics
so they arrest you for curfew violation and then they automatically say you are violating prostitution regulations? that seems unfair and… unconstitutionally illegal. like kicking people out of the military for people being gay.
this seems like it would be just handing the anti-usfk forces a stick to beat over usfk?€™s head. they would create another one of those phony statistics like the 30,000 ?€?crimes?€™ committed by g.i.?€™s which were something like 90% traffic violations
That is why I said it is a twisted political thing. As best I can tell, by saying we arrested X many hundred GIs, USFK leadership can demonstrate how hard a stance they are taking. The reality does not matter. Opinion amongst the South Korean media and congressional fundamentalist in the US is what matters.
congressional fundamentalists are keeping me out of the military, but i thought they wanted hot-blooded heterosexual men.
this sounds like a dangerous path. on the one hand, you can look like you’re doing something, but it’s only a matter of time before someone takes these statistics and tries to use them against usfk. it seems like a dumb policy to be giving the anti-usfk press ammunition against them.
i can see them doing something like saying, ‘in order to work with korean authorities to reduce solicitation of prostitution, usfk has employed an after-hours ban. we are serious about this ban, as evidenced by xxxx of arrests and citations in xxx months.’ don’t even suggest that these arrestees are actual prostitution solicitation violations.
Sorry, but the term ’sex industry’ conjures up images of line technicians hard at work in a dildo factory. The only thing that the girls in the juicy bars are creating is some pent-up frustration among the patrons. How about ’sex economy’, since we’re not talking about the manufacture of products like movies or online porn? Or are we - does anyone have any info to share?
“A lesbian Korean-American republican is the definition of irony, is it not?” –Nora Sumi Park
Just a test…
?€œA lesbian Korean-American republican is the definition of irony, is it not??€? ?€“Nora Sumi Park
damn straight! (pun intended)
for more information on ironic republicans, go here.
no, go here
wtf?!
go to http://www.lcr.org.
try
http://www.lcr.org without the trailing punctuation.
Why just not worry about it? Promote safe sex, makes sure condoms are available and leave it up to the Government of Korea to deal with. The only reason this whole “initative” started was because more and more feminists became alarmed that Soldiers might actually be having sex! Its crazy. A female soldier can get pregnant by another soldier and that has no penalty, but a guy wants to slice off a piece of tuna with a condom and he gets the book thrown at him. This is not the business of the US Army.
Simply more feminist feel good BS. A pox on the all……
?€œA lesbian Korean-American republican is the definition of irony, is it not??€?
Only for small minds, operating on comfortable, agreed-upon assumptions.
I’d call it a definition of America.
If she was a Libertarian it would make a bit more sense. However, someone wishing to take the right to marry away from themselves does seem a little odd, does it not?
If she was a Libertarian it would make a bit more sense. However, someone wishing to take the right to marry away from themselves does seem a little odd, does it not?
oh, great. i’ve become the subject of the ‘juicy girls’ thread. my mother warned me things like this would happen if i talk about sexuality with men i don’t know.
anyway, i sort of address your points in my blog, a little. i do think that pragmatic republicans (even if they are breeders) need to take back their party from the theocons. true republicanism is about less government interference, not enforcing one religious brand of morality.
the theocons are trying to take away the right for people to marry the same gender (i don’t want to say they are taking away the right for gays/lesbians to marry, because they already do… in sham marriages where the partner is often an unwitting victim), and the lcr (log cabin republicans) is not happy about that. that’s why they withheld endorsement of bush in 2004.
i still believe in other republican values, but i’m beginning to see that they are held by a more and more marginalized moderate wing.
i realized recently that my political leanings were formed when the g.o.p. was a perpetual minority party, when they were able to make wisely critical judgments of the wacky left that ruled the country. but since 2001 when they gained control of all three houses, they’ve lurched too far to the right, in ways that are not worthy of a genuine ‘conservative’ label.
but instead of abandoning the party, i think people like me need to stay in it and reform it from the inside. the lcr platform (and rationale) is very close to what i believe. i don’t think i could support the libertarians. they just go too far with the ‘government out of our lives’ theme.
now get back to the juicy girls. are there gay- or lesbian-themed bars with juicy girls/guys on ‘the hill’?
max watson wrote:
The constant claim of ?€œhuman traffiking?€? isn?€™t 100% accurate, but does apply to some cases. Hell, it even applies to many english teachers here who sign those bullshit contracts before they come to Korea.
unless an english teacher is being forced to stay and teach, then it is not human trafficking. that comparison is so incredibly stupid that you should smack yourself in the head for even thinking it. go on, we’ll wait.
good. now, there really are some teachers who are threatened into staying in bad contracts, so i would agree that in some very exceptional cases there are real cases of human trafficking. but being forced to teach english falls far short of ‘white slavery.’
the problem with the english teaching profession is that too many hagwon owners lie about the conditions of employment or housing or whatever, or they deliberately refuse to abide by the contract. in such cases the english teacher should be able to go somewhere and get the contract enforced, but that typically doesn’t happen. but in the worst case situation, the english teacher can just leave. this is unfair, of course, but there’s a way out.
not so with someone in forced prostitution where she is threatened with serious physical harm to herself or her ‘friends’ and with nowhere to go for help.
Anyway, 2800 hoez went out to protest crackdowns last December, did their pimps force them? I think not: http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....09041.html
obviously there are some people, maybe many people, who voluntarily go into this. some women reportedly make a lot of money doing it. but these women protesting the crackdown doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem with human trafficking in korea’s sex industry.
me, i would legalize and regulate prostitution. it can’t be eliminated, so make sure the women (and the customers) are protected as much as possible. but with the theocons in power in america, i don’t see that happening. i could see it happening here first.
If she was a Libertarian it would make a bit more sense.
Sounds to me like she is.
the theocons are trying to take away the right for people to marry the same gender
There’s a difference between the right to get married and the right to have the marriage recognized by the state. Gays do have the former, so they do in fact have the right to marry the same gender.
Easy solution: the government should have nothing to do with marriages, period.
Then people would be free to define it themselves. As they are now, anyway.
now get back to the juicy girls. are there gay- or lesbian-themed bars with juicy girls/guys on ?€?the hill?€™?
Yes. A gay-male one. Kinda.
too many legal privileges and protections come along with marriage, so i don’t think the government can just pull out of it.
and it’s some of those legal privileges i want right now, so this is an issue near and dear to me.
i don’t think i could vote libertarian. nambla just weirds me out.
Ok, 45 posts to read and lots of off-topic gibberish I skipped.. so if this has been said already, merely let me reaffirm:
prostitution is the world’s oldest profession.
The constant claim of “human traffiking” isn’t 100% accurate, but does apply to some cases. Hell, it even applies to many english teachers here who sign those bullshit contracts before they come to Korea.
Anyway, 2800 hoez went out to protest crackdowns last December, did their pimps force them? I think not: http://joongangdaily.joins.com.....09041.html
Gay/Lesbian Republicans are no more of an aberration than a Democrat that is opposed to abortion. Most areas of both parties?€™ platforms are completely contradictory so I would like to put forth the opinion that it is a good thing for people like Nora to agree with parts of the platform but not all and be cognoscente as to the reasons why.
I seem to recall that our senoritas de la Luz roja were standing in lines in soup kitchens during the winter claiming that was all they knew how to do. I have also heard taxi drivers complain that by not allowing them to practice their craft, the unseen hand is being restrained to the detriment of society. They continue to explain that when these ladies step out of their neighborhoods that the main form of transportation they use is the taxi and that they are not above giving generous tips. Someone earlier claimed that this ?€?hidden economy?€™ contributes nearly 4% to the GDP of Korea. That is a significant figure that would make it difficult to eradicate the people performing these types of services. Perhaps it might be better for the government to regulate it and by doing so A) recognize that it is a part of society B) earn a little revenue in the form of licensing C) work towards limiting this service sector?€™s role in the spread of STD thus helping to protect the health and welfare of its citizens and most importantly D) take away the trafficking aspect of it through allowing these people to come and go freely not being trapped by organized crime and unscrupulous bar owners.
Those of us from the bay area are familiar with some of these priviledges, particularly the ability to marry someone you love
and bring them back to the US as a legal resident spouse. Regardless of whether you are for or against gay/lesbian marraige, the immigration system is so f’ed up and that is one issue that should be addressed in ANY much needed overhaul of the system. There are others too of course but that is one that most people do not stop to think about.
Easy solution: If you love someone, don’t bring them back to the United States.
It’s easy to keep loving someone if they’re in a different country.
South Korea. Where is Korea? Don’t refer to South Korea as Korea.
j. vanzanten wrote:
Easy solution: If you love someone, don?€™t bring them back to the United States.
that’s simply not a solution for me. i have family obligations in the u.s. and i want to go to grad school there. but i can’t go until my s.o. can get a visa on her own, which is a bit difficult unless we want to spend the money for her to go to school at the same time, which is simply too expensive.
if one of us were a man, we could just get legally married and there’d be no problem. this is one way that ‘civil unions’ don’t cut it.
It?€™s easy to keep loving someone if they?€™re in a different country.
i don’t know what you mean by this. are you saying that relationships that start out in korea between an american and a korean don’t end up working well when they both go to the u.s.? i really don’t think that would be a problem with us.
The worst part about this problem is that even if you did pay the money for your S.O. to go to school simultaneously, there would be a forseable end to that visa, it is not a complete solution. I can go on and on about the problems I see with US immigration and this is one that I see. The marraige recognition issue is separate or at least it could be. What is at stake here is as a US citizen, does one person have more of a right to bring a non-citizen to the US as part of their family than another based solely on the genders of both the citizen and person they are trying to bring back. Whether it is called marraige or not, I believe they should.
human companionship is considered a basic need, along with shelter, food, and clothing. so being denied it puts one in a dire situation, doesn’t it? imagine (assuming you’re hetero, gbnhj) if the u.s. government forbid you from bringing your girlfriend (or boyfriend?) with you back to the u.s. to live. wouldn’t you feel that was a dire situation?
i figured someone would eventually bring up the english teaching situation if i mentioned this, and i’ve thought about this already, so here are some thoughts.
first, what we are considering doing is technically not illegal. it is just not going along with the intention of the law.
second, i know of no one who is qualified to teach english who ends up teaching illegally because they have no other choice (and if a real, non-hypothetical situation were presented, i might be very sympathetic to such a case, like someone wrongly convicted of a crime in korea so can no longer get a teaching visa but must be with his/her family here).
third (but least related to the ethical argument), is that i am actually trying to do something about easing the burden on qualified people the ability who want to work legally and switch jobs legally when their employer doesn’t follow the contract, which is parallel to what activists in the u.s. are doing to change the marriage laws to include same-sex marriage. i see the current status (in both cases) as unfair, and something needs to be done about it.
Well, consider that issue from an opposite perspective: would things be any better for Nora had she met her partner in the US and then decided to follow her partner back to Korea? I think that the American laws regarding this reflect bias, but those biases are not solely to be found in America.
Wanting things to change for the better is natural, and laws do change, but governments?€™ positions regarding the moral underpinnings of those laws (regardless of our own opinions) are often slow to change. Sometimes they may be too slow, since we have lives to lead, but not to wait. Nora, I don?€™t mean to suggest that you should stop fighting for change, but perhaps you might consider some alternatives in the interim.
For example, do other countries offer a more relaxed policy regarding this situation? Do those countries offer better social and/or academic environments than you?€™ve got here? Have you thought about living and going to school elsewhere?
gbnhj, you are right. the same would be a problem in the other direction.
but, even without an f-4 visa, it would be far easier for me to get a working visa here or, if i chose, far cheaper to study here on a student visa.
other alternatives are being considered, but i don’t wish to discuss them here because of their questionable legal status. to me it’s a classic ‘heinz and the drug’ situation (where for me the most important distinction is #10 (whether the law in the case is getting in the way of the most basic claim of any member of society).
going to a third country is not really an option (we mght as well just stay here anyway), because there is an increasing need to be near elderly relatives in california who are in their 60s and beyond.
In that case, ‘the most basic claim’ referred to the claim for life - for existence. Your situation is surely not easy, but is that dire? I don?€™t mean to be callous, but you usually offer harsh criticism for those who teach English illegally in Korea, for the fact that they are doing so illegally. I don?€™t expect that this simple post will change your view, but this isn?€™t a life-threatening situation, and legal alternatives exist.
I?€™d suggest that you consider the position that you take with others: change laws, don?€™t break them. Otherwise, you?€™re simply offering up scorn to others for something that you would also do.
Naturally Nora blames the whole prostitution situation on foreigners
freenk wrote:
Naturally Nora blames the whole prostitution situation on foreigners
i don’t know if you’re a troll or an idiot who can’t read, but i was making it pretty clear that the problem is foreign women are being victimized by koreans.
are the stereotypes about what kyopos think so deeply embedded in your brain that stuff you read to the contrary simply cannot dislodge them?
Maybe Nora, when you call people an idiot and identify yourself as a kyopo then people will identify kyopos as angry people. I have read your posts and many if not most seem to attack people. I think you are the troll. If you are really kyopo, then you are making kyopos look bad.
I was told once that because Kyopos are of two cultures they are a kind of “super race”. Best of great korea and best of other nations. Its like 1 X 1=11, but even more so because we are Korean, so its 1 X 1 = 500.(Just look how millions of japanese swoon for korean hearthtrobs) Its only a matter of time before many other nations do the same. (I predict Julia Roberts-Kim). So be nice to people. America has really soured you Nora, maybe living in USA has made you in to lesbian.
Maybe Nora, when you call people an idiot and identify yourself as a kyopo then people will identify kyopos as angry people. I have read your posts and many if not most seem to attack people. I think you are the troll. If you are really kyopo, then you are making kyopos look bad.
I was told once that because Kyopos are of two cultures they are a kind of “super race”. Best of great korea and best of other nations. Its like 1 X 1=11, but even more so because we are Korean, so its 1 X 1 = 500.(Just look how millions of japanese swoon for korean hearthtrobs) Its only a matter of time before many other nations do the same. (I predict Julia Roberts-Kim). So be nice to people. America has really soured you Nora, maybe living in USA has made you in to lesbian.
Maybe Nora, when you call people an idiot and identify yourself as a kyopo then people will identify kyopos as angry people. I have read your posts and many if not most seem to attack people. I think you are the troll. If you are really kyopo, then you are making kyopos look bad.
I was told once that because Kyopos are of two cultures they are a kind of “super race”. Best of great korea and best of other nations. Its like 1 X 1=11, but even more so because we are Korean, so its 1 X 1 = 500.(Just look how millions of japanese swoon for korean hearthtrobs) Its only a matter of time before many other nations do the same. (I predict Julia Roberts-Kim). So be nice to people. America has really soured you Nora, maybe living in USA has made you in to lesbian.
A kyopo super race, now I have heard it all, BTW kimbap tastes like shit. My korean (non kyopo) friends tell me that kyopos are so full of shit. Now I belive them.
I met women like nora at my Univerisy. Lesbian man haters, calling all men rapists, but in noras case she just hates foreigners, in korea, mostly men i guess. Well nora, foreigners dont hate you.
I wish there was some way to get through to koreans like nora.
Nora, your situation is difficult, I agree, but (again) not as difficult as the ‘life-or-death’ situation posed in the case. You can, for example, continue to reside here and live, even if you?€™d rather be somewhere else doing something else.
If the action you and your partner contemplate cannot be construed as illegal, then I have no qualm with it. However, I am a little surprised that this is the case, for were it so, I’d have thought that you would’ve already left Korea.
You may be surprised to learn that I side with you regarding individuals breaking the law - including illegal teaching here in Korea. However, I do not feel that their violation of the law regarding teaching privately merits labeling them as harshly as you have done in the past. I?€™m not talking about other individual offences for which teachers are sometimes found guilty, but only for the practice of teaching in violation of the law.
Much more contemptible are those with more power ?€“ immigration officials and institute owners ?€“ who abuse their authority for self-gain, yet you have no bitter words for them. At one point, you even referred to English teachers residing illegally in Korea as ‘whitebacks’. If your partner emigrates legally, then so be it; if she does so illegally, should she then deserve this sort of condemnation?
I don’t agree with the bad-mouthing of those here who personally attack you ?€“ not at all ?€“ but I wonder if it?€™s fair for you to criticize others for their actions, or to criticize them in the manner that you do.
Why is the per capita income of Luxemborg close to $60k?
What’s the deal with picking on Nora? (gbnhj, I’m not referring to you.) Her arguments are rational and not jingoistic at all. She’s hardly a kneejerk nationalistshe’s a card-carrying Rebublican, for goodness’ sakes! Frankly, I like reading her comments because she has a fairly informed point of view on a lot of issues.
Regarding teachers in Korea, yes, they’re not so much to blame as the unscrupulous Hagwon owners who made their presence possible. And can you seriously tell me that you don’t have a problem with illegal immigrants in the US? I’m not passing judgement on their situationI’m just saying how are Nora’s views on this particular matter so different from those of the vast majority of Americans?
I do not see any problem with Nora’s posts, even though I am against legalizing the same sex marriages. I come here mainly because I like learn. I enjoy plurality of opinions. I like to hear the arguments supporting the opposite view from the view I am supporting.
Plurality, people! We are all different. Even Koreans are different. The street adjussi and ajumma are all different; they look the same but their lives and their thoughts all different.
We, foreigners, kyopos and what have you, have walked a different path from one another. We have different ideas. So, we come here and share. We exchange ideas. We learn.
That is what this site is all about. However, some who come here have deep-seated hate of Koreans, and they like to take it out on a Korean, any Korean.
Reminds me of this guy in New York who pushed an oriental down the subway track because his landlord, who happens to be an Asian, had been mean to him. So, he decided to kill any Asian who came his way.
Crazy, huh? But, racism can blind you. Just like love or extreme hate would do. It is a part of us. No one can escape racial prejudice. I have some too. I like to overcome it by understanding other people. Know their stories; joy, suffering, history, feelings, etc.
So, let us not single out a Korean ,or a foreigner for that matter, and have a KKK court where a bunch of hate-filled people direct their anger (about their situation) on one victim. Let’s grow out of that.
Amen baduk. Every time a Korean person screams at me or hits me for being white, I make sure not to internalize that. I do my best to prevent that from entering my concious opinion of the Korean citizenry as I go about my daily life.
gbnhj wrote:
Nora, your situation is difficult, I agree, but (again) not as difficult as the ?€?life-or-death?€™ situation posed in the case. You can, for example, continue to reside here and live, even if you?€™d rather be somewhere else doing something else.
you’re right. it’s not a life-or-death situation. and so far i have continued to reside here and live. in a perfect world, we’d be able to go to the states whenever and however we liked in the same way a heterosexual married couple does. but in this imperfect world, staying here is how we’re coping so far.
If the action you and your partner contemplate cannot be construed as illegal, then I have no qualm with it. However, I am a little surprised that this is the case, for were it so, I?€™d have thought that you would?€™ve already left Korea.
without getting into too many details, it would involve third or fourth parties, and i’d rather not get other people involved, even if technically legal. we had also hoped that certain things would come to pass that would render the whole problem moot, but that didn’t happen.
i don’t want to do anything illegal. i don’t want to do something unethical. but i do feel that marginalizing certain unpopular groups for the sake of political gain is also unethical, in a way that has a profound and detrimental effect on people’s lives, and sometimes one must do extreme things in order to cope with such problems. as long as the extreme thing to do is something that’s illegal, i don’t really want to do it.
just in case you might be thinking this, it does not involve anyone getting a tourist or student visa and overstaying it, although we both know that option is wide open.
someone derided me for being so concerned about illegal english teachers in korea while not caring that there are ‘millions’ of koreans illegally living in the u.s. well, i do care about that. i think that’s a huge problem, and i think it is fundamentally unfair to the hundreds of thousands of koreans and other immigrants who waited patiently and legally for their chance to emigrate to the u.s. i’m very against it and i don’t want to be a part of that.
You may be surprised to learn that I side with you regarding individuals breaking the law - including illegal teaching here in Korea. However, I do not feel that their violation of the law regarding teaching privately merits labeling them as harshly as you have done in the past. I?€™m not talking about other individual offences for which teachers are sometimes found guilty, but only for the practice of teaching in violation of the law.
i think this is a case of too many people believing the hype and not knowing the message. some people saw a kyopo criticizing illegal english teachers and just started making a bunch of assumptions about it.
you see, i do support the qualified english teachers. i think a lot of them are great people and most of them are working their asses off and deserve a lot less crap than they get.
now why should the legal people, who have the real bachelor’s or master’s, who are trying to make an honest living, have to compete with people who are bucking the system by working illegally? why should they have to compete for decent pay and working conditions in a teaching economy brought down by people lacking qualifications who are therefore willing to work for less money or worse conditions?
the quick and dirty answer to that is that it’s the hagwon owners’ fault (and i agree they are the #1 problem, although not all hagwon owners are like that), but it’s still a three-way problem with the ignorant/incompetent (or sometimes even corrupt) immigration officials, and the unqualified teachers willing to work under the table on tourist visas.
it’s like fire needing not just flame in order to burn, but also fuel and oxygen. immigration regulations that create an unreasonable or unfair burden on honest, hard-working teachers creates the atmosphere (oxygen) and the steady stream of willing illegals provides the fuel. the flame of the hagwon competition and the corrupt and unethical business practices of many hagwons would die out if the hagwons didn’t have a supply of willing illegals.
the problem is a three-way and a lot of people are getting f**ked.
so it’s not english teachers i’m bashing. not only am i not bashing them, i’m working on projects to help change some of the immigration practices, plus some other things i can’t exactly discuss because of work product.
kind of ironic that while i’m getting bashed for hating all these people, i’m one of the few people actually doing something here to help them.
but i guess a lot of people would rather bitch and moan instead of solving the problem. about that ‘cyper apartheid’ issue, i genuinely thought a lot of people would welcome the chance to get their problems aired before the immigration officials that are trying to do something to resolve that, but i got zero people providing information. zero. lots of people griping, but nobody actually trying to lift a finger to fix it.
Much more contemptible are those with more power ?€“ immigration officials and institute owners ?€“ who abuse their authority for self-gain, yet you have no bitter words for them.
i absolutely think they are the #1 part of the problem (well, they plus some of the recruiters). and if you think i have no bitter words for them, you weren’t paying attention. i said at least a couple times that it’s a three-way problem. the ‘teachers’ willing to work illegally are only part of the problem.
At one point, you even referred to English teachers residing illegally in Korea as ?€?whitebacks?€™. If your partner emigrates legally, then so be it; if she does so illegally, should she then deserve this sort of condemnation?
i said that word in jest. i also call kyopos in korea ‘reverse fobs.’ i’m like that. my humour can be very biting sometimes, and it’s just half a step from there to bitchy. sorry if that offended you.
as for my girlfriend, she’s been called worse in the united states anyway. if you could guarantee that ‘wetback’ was the worse she would be called (or i would be called) in the states, we’d both take you up on that.
but see, that’s not america bashing. i love america, but my love for my country is not contingent on having nothing bad to say about it. there are some things that s-u-c-k about life in america, especially if you’re a minority, and especially if you’re a gay/lesbian. but for every jackass i encounter, there are 100 people i meet who aren’t jackasses, so i don’t let the homophobes, racists, or other ignorati define america for me.
I don?€™t agree with the bad-mouthing of those here who personally attack you ?€“ not at all ?€“ but I wonder if it?€™s fair for you to criticize others for their actions, or to criticize them in the manner that you do.
again, i ask that you not believe the hype. i get all kinds of nasty viewpoints ascribed to me, most of them being a result of people’s prejudices (oh, she’s a kyopo, so she thinks like this… oh, she’s a lesbian so she’s a man hater…) or their inability to read (nora’s word corea).
kinda funny. some koreans i meet hear the exact same things i say here and think i hate korea and love japan and america because i’m part japanese (which is where sumi comes from) and i was born in california.
people believe what they want. half the problems of people on this blog and elsewhere is that they’ve made up their mind what someone has to say before they open their mouths or type a sentence.
I was told once that because Kyopos are of two cultures they are a kind of ?€œsuper race?€?.
Many of the males, especially, believe this. It is quite irritating.
dogbert, I’ve got a question that is completely off-topic (not that we’re following the topic of this thread anymore):
In the Songdo thread, you mentioned that you know a fair bit about that project, and at that time I mentioned that my wife and I are looking to buy a new place. I’m non-Korean, legally residing here and working for a Korean employer. My wife is Korean, and is fully-employed as well. We already own a home, with my wife listed as the legal owner.
Is there any advantage or disadvantage (to me, or to us) if the new home is purchased in my name? Would we be taxed differently if I were the legal owner instead of her?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Nora is the real victom. Everyone is out to get her only because she is a Kyopo. By the way great people like Mizer, who is Kyopo, and Gerry Beavers are attacked by nora and her crew and nobody minds. Hmmm….
about that ?€?cyper apartheid?€™ issue, i genuinely thought a lot of people would welcome the chance to get their problems aired before the immigration officials that are trying to do something to resolve that, but i got zero people providing information. zero. lots of people griping, but nobody actually trying to lift a finger to fix it.
Nora, sorry about not responding to this in the earlier post above - it didn’t fit well with the rest, and I just forgot to do it. Anyway, you might consider the possibility of a reasonable motive for folks not wanting to give that information. It’s nothing against you, but I’d never do that. I’m sorry if that’s bothersome, but it?€™s not meant to be.
Actually, I’m surprised that the government needs my help to solve its own math problem, if indeed that’s where the problem lies. Dogbert wrote volumes regarding algorithms which the government uses to identify each individual. Why doesn?€™t the government simply go back to their data, and work in cooperation with the banks? I’m sure that the banks would be happy to assist, since they could collect marginally more income through fees, and look like they’re helping out.
I still feel the same way about that issue - nothing’s changed…
gbnhj wrote:
nora: about that ?€?cyper apartheid?€™ issue, i genuinely thought a lot of people would welcome the chance to get their problems aired before the immigration officials that are trying to do something to resolve that, but i got zero people providing information. zero. lots of people griping, but nobody actually trying to lift a finger to fix it.
Anyway, you might consider the possibility of a reasonable motive for folks not wanting to give that information. It?€™s nothing against you, but I?€™d never do that. I?€™m sorry if that?€™s bothersome, but it?€™s not meant to be.
the privacy issue had already been taken into account when the request was made. they do not want your actual number, just the last seven digits (which is where everything gets screwed up), preceded by the letters yy, mm, and dd where appropriate), .
i specifically asked that people “actually write the letters yy, mm, and dd, not the actual numbers.”
the original request is here, comment #58.
i wouldn’t give out my whole number to anyone, either, but the last seven digits are useless without the birthdate stuff, so if someone’s name and birthdate is not given, then it can’t be used for anything.
Actually, I?€™m surprised that the government needs my help to solve its own math problem, if indeed that?€™s where the problem lies.
they aren’t solving a math problem but trying to demonstrate the lack of usage of the system companies are supposed to be following.
the immigration/moj person who asked for this is a research chief whose department makes legislative proposals (like how to protect third-world workers, how to implement a ‘permanent residence’ system, etc.). he is trying to show how non-use of the system is getting things all screwed up for foreign citizens, making the system useless. they need baseline data.
even before the segye ilbo story was on marmot’s, he had asked us to provide ‘anecdotal’ information to use to make his case. he is trying very hard.
Dogbert wrote volumes regarding algorithms which the government uses to identify each individual. Why doesn?€™t the government simply go back to their data, and work in cooperation with the banks? I?€™m sure that the banks would be happy to assist, since they could collect marginally more income through fees, and look like they?€™re helping out.
it’s not just the banks, and it’s not just a problem with how the banks do the numbers. they are trying to get an realistic idea what is actually happening on the ground instead of just supposing what the problem is and trying to fix it.
i understand privacy concerns, which i think have been adequately addressed, but here you have a government agency actually trying to find out how things are going wrong by going and getting the information instead of just guessing at the problem, but you’re essentially saying, ‘figure it out yourself, you don’t need this info.’
I still feel the same way about that issue - nothing?€™s changed?€?
i think an argument can be made that nothing is going to change if we don’t provide input about it. here is a government agency asking for input to solve something and after 50+ posts of complaints, almost no one is willing to help out by giving real-world data so they can verify how big a problem this is for individuals.
Everyone is free to make his or her comments. I don’t see the merit in attacking anyone. Arguing with a point he or she makes, yes, but not making an ad hominem attack, regardless of whether the poster is Nora, Noolji, Baduk, Mizer, Gerry, Shakahuchi, or anyone else.
I’m not defending Nora because I think she deserves special treatment; everyone deserves exactly the same treatment as everyone else, at least as long as they’re reasonable, and I don’t see Nora being unreasonable. Whether you agree or disagree with her, I don’t see what exactly she says that gets some people so riled up. Maybe she’s a bit loose with words like “idiot,” etc., but it’s usually in response to some misplaced comment someone else wrote. She certainly wasn’t just “blaming the prostitution situation on foreigners,” and I don’t see her wrapping her arguments up in this mythical “gyopo” flag.
Painting her with the same brush as Noolji is unfair, too. I do see exactly why Noolji does upset other peoplehis fabricated quotes that he attributes to people he disagrees with, which, although sometimes perceptive, are uncalled for.
Regarding commenters like Mizer (is that the right spelling? Don’t recall now; haven’t seen him around in a while) and Gerry, well, they’re free to say what they will. Since Gerry only ever goes on and on about a couple of pointsDokdo/Takeshima and textbooksI don’t really pay too much attention to him, but that’s his pet issue and that’s what he chooses to comment on. I do find Mizer’s comments interesting, since he is a Korean who is so critical of certain trends in his own society.
Anyhow, what are we talking about here? Commenters who have a habit of getting under other people’s skin, who, though small in number, comment prolifically. So they draw attention, in some cases perhaps deliberately. If you disagree with them, argue with them by all means; it would just be better if we stuck to the points and didn’t get into discussions of this or that person’s character. For that, you can call me a pollyanna, but I’m just trying to be realistic that these comment threads would be somewhat more productive without the undercurrent of “she’s a gyopo, so naturally she would say that”; or “he’s a whitey, so of course he would think that.” Finally, there are enough commenters who break our stereotypesMizer for Koreans, mae for Japanese, James for non-Koreansthat it shouldn’t be necessary to pigeonhole people anyhow.
Okay, end of rambling comment. Whew.
Or maybe I’m just hand-waving (that’s a computer science term, by the way) over my unrequited love for Nora. Too bad I was born with the wrong equipment for this Transpacific romance.
I believe, FreeNK, by “Mizer” you meant Mivarz? That’s whom I was referring to, anyhow….
Mizer?€™s comments interesting, since he is a Korean who is so critical of certain trends in his own society.
Look back a few posts where Mizarv has referrred to Marmot and Oranckay as “house niggers.” Since there isn’t much reason for a Korean to vilify non Koreans as race traitors (unlike, for example, President Roh), it therefore seems unlikely that Mizarv is actually Korean.
Well, I have my doubts too….
South Korea! South Korea! This is South K