I guess there really is a former empire in Asia whose leaders refuse to honestly reflect on the country’s past crimes and maintain thinly veiled ambitions of returning the nation to its imperial glory.
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C’mon Mr. Marmot, when Russians are reduced to performing in hotel lounges in Seoul and modeling underwear on infomercials here (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) it does make you reflect on how far the Evil Empire has fallen…
That’s it, I’m going to set myself on fire outside a Russian hostess bar tonight.
I have to agree with you again Mr Marmot, I too have difficulty calling japan to account. I guess the biggest reason is because Japan has been called and called again and again, and paid in full. Poor japan. Japan is a good nation full of good people just like Korea. A difference is that Japan is a wonderful citizen of the world. Korea who had its bacon saved by the UN seems to care less about helping other nations.
I normally take the side that Japan is insensitive about the impact of its actions in territories of contested sovereignty shall we say. As to whether I think they have paid their debt to the world, I am not sure but in this case, I agree 100% with the opinion that Korea as a country and to a lesser extent as a people are not at all thoughtful of what sacrafices have been made in behalf of the ROK. I do not deny that many Koreans lost their lives in the struggle to gain first independance from Japan and then against NK and even those that fought agains the corrupt governments of the past. They are, however, not the only sacrafices that were made. Not only that but Korea in general fails to see the benefit in becomming involved in helping other nations. There are christian groups that help out to be sure but that is different from a national effort of any kind. The only group SK helps (that I can think of) is NK. As yet, it seems like the mentality here is how can we peddle our wares to the rest of the world and become rich from it AND look at us, we are now rich enough to travel/study in Europe, Australia and N America but that is all. The feeling that Korea is becomming any sort of responsible, helpful, contributing citizen of the world doesn’t seem to exist. Yes there are those that would argue that stationing troops in Iraq is a start in the right direction but I think it is hard to justify that as any sort of contribution to society. It is rather a political favor that was called in by the US-nothing more. Otherwise we would have to include the actions of US military as contributing in Iraq too and while they play a role, one thing, among many they are contributing is a higher body count-much like attributing a low crime rate to effective use of the electric chair-not something to get excited about or brag about by any means.
Nobody expects Korea to do that much James because they are a small country, but when Koreans don’t even say thanks to the US or say like the US started the Korean War people are offended by them. People dont like Korea takes the US aid and business but they don’t say thanks.
East Asians, especially South Koreans, have refused to give due credit to Japan for their assistance in helping boost East Asian economies over the past half-century. When thinking of Japan, South Koreans solely think about Japanese actions prior to 1945. I don’t deny Japanese atrocities, but the Japanese deserve some credit for what they have done for East Asia in recent decades . No one does.
As for South Korea, despite having the world’s 10th largest economy, their contribution to foreign aid is appallingly low. When they go on overseas peacekeeping missions, the public and the government pump it up as if they’re sailing across the Channel to land on Normandy.
What’s most concerning about South Korea is their supposed neutral position should there be a conflict in the Taiwan Strait. If anyone, South Koreans should be the first to recognize the benefits of warding off a communist invasion. However, nowadays, South Korea is simply too self-centered, even when it concerns the welfare of their northern “brethren” (the North Korean people, not the leadership).
Recent email from a Taiwanese American friend:
Hell, how must Koreans feel when they see Taiwanese wave Japanese flags like they did at that recent indepence rally? They must think the Taiwanese, their fellow colonized-by-Japan unfortunates, are insane. But I was happy to hear about that; it pretty accurately reflects how Taiwanese people feel about Japan, as far as I’ve heard. Being colonized wasn’t fun, but the Japanese did good things for Taiwan which Taiwanese openly recognize, unlike Koreans who want to knock down the old Seoul Station because being there feels like being at Tokyo Station .
Valid points about Korea, perhaps, but doesn’t anyone see real menace in Putin’s views? He has virtually cancelled what Russian democracy that was achieved in the last 15 years and much of his rhetoric — and his revival of arms sales to seedy clients like Syria — suggests Moscow misses its role as a world troublemaker.
I can see pensiors in Russia missing the more stable life they enjoyed in the past, but no person of decency would say they missed the Soviet Union.
I agree with Putin. War is infinitely more simple in a bipolar world.
Apparently Hong Kong doesn’t feel the same way as Taipei.
Since we’re using anecdotal evidence here, I grew up around lots of Taiwanese and I don’t recall them expressing warm feelings towards Japan. Positive feelings towards Japan are in all likelihood more the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” feelings arising out of current circumstances rather than “gratitude” for colonization.
Slim — make no mistake about it, I found those comments EXTREMELY menacing. And I kinda like Putin, in a way. I wouldn’t want to be a Russian security planner, that for sure. But man, Putin just gave those advocating NATO expansion some serious locker room bulletin board material. Christ, when my wife — who also kinda has a soft spot for Putin — read those comments, even she was like, “He said WHAT?”
James,
You bring interesting points that I think Koreans want to hide. This is what I think of Koreans, which, by the way, I am one.
1) Koreans and the Japanese came from the same genetic beginning; just look at us.
2) Therefore, Koreans and the Japanese are not different in genetic make-up from the Chinese.
3) Korea was a part of China before Japan took over.
4) Mongols intermarried with Koreans(the Chinese inhabiting the peninsula) and gave Mongol-look to Koreans.
5) Yi Sungge, who established Chosun dynasty, was a Chinese.
6) “Wang” is a title not for a king but a regional administrator reporting to the Emperor of China. SungKunKwan, the record depository, kept the sealed record that the Chinese used to keep a check on Wang. This is the reason the Korean Wang cannot look or edit the record.
7) There was no separate Korean identity different from that of the Chinese until the Japanese took over Korea.
Japan fabricated the Korean history and declared Koreans to be a separate people. What they teach in Korean schools are Japan’s invention of Korean history. Korean people are not unique, as much as the Japanese are not unique. Koreans are mixed race of the Chinese and the Mongols.
Disclaimer once more: I am not advocating we Koreans go back to the arms of the poor Chinese; they will take everything we got. In stead, why don’t we stay as a semi-protectorate of the U.S.?
We can keep the present standard of living.
It’s not just about willingness to forgive or acknowlege positive contributions. The Taiwanese had a drastically different experience under Japanese rule than the Koreans, partly due to the later’s geographic position and available resources. Furthermore, people around today who remember when Taiwan was a Japanese colony contrast it with what followed: the early years of the Guomindang occupation were substantially worse (including, of course, the infamous 228 massacre) than the waning days of Japanese rule, and that was followed by a militaristic authoritarian government and a constant threat from the Communists across the strait. It is no wonder that they might come to look upon the Japanese era as the good old days. But it’s well-documented that the Koreans had a much harder time under a more brutal regime than the Taiwanese.
Last year, when I was living in Taipei, two friends of mine, one Taiwanese and one Korean, went to visit the Presidential Palace. My Taiwanese friend came back and complained that the Korean friend completely embarrassed her by making a fuss to the guards (and apparently, anyone who would listen) over the pictures of Japanese colonial rulers hung alongside post-1945 Taiwanese leaders: while he was shocked the government would celebrate its subjugation, she looked at the pictures and recalled the railroads, waterworks, etc. that were completed under each man’s tenure. But they were coming at the pictures from knowledge of two very different styles of Japanese colonization.
Merry: “But it?€™s well-documented that the Koreans had a much harder time under a more brutal regime than the Taiwanese.”
Gerry: Where is it well-documented? In Korean history books?
Gerry: Trying to say it was all fun and games? We’ll start with the brutal killing of Queen Min, the suppression of the Korean language, history, culture, the March 1st movement suppression, forced labor and more. But yeah, it was a bundle of laughs.
The third goon reports in, joining China and Japan.
Now you know why SK cannot help other country. SK doesn?€™t have enough money to defend against these three animals.
Then, there is KJI, a mad brother (or, is it China’s underling) who likes to eat too.
SK desperately needs to buy more weapons, just to stay afloat. And, strong alliance with the U.S. With anti-American administration, SK is doomed already.
When the U.S. leaves, SK must quickly declare allegiance to one of these merciless goons just to stay alive. Korea will choose China.
One of the main differences about Taiwan and Korean experiences is this. Korea had a long proud history of its own in the region with constant bitter warring with Japan which made it doubly hard for Koreans to accept Japanese rule without feeling humiliated, while Taiwan was an island populated heavily by non-Chinese aborogines who welcomed Japan’s modernization of the island. The Taiwanese had no or little historic interactions with Japan for them to not like the Japanese rule. Bruce Cumings wrote a really good article on why Korea’s and Taiwan’s experiences were so different, and why Koreans were uncooperative with Japanese rule compared to the Taiwanese. Another reason Cummings brought up was that unlike the Taiwanese, at that time, a staggering 20% of the Korean population were displaced all over Asia during the Japanese rule which contributed to Korean bitterness.
I’ll try to dig up that source again.
A-fucking-men, Gerry. Plunge and Merry try to dredge up unsubstantiated revitionist history — Korea was worse than Stalin’s Gulag! Taiwan was paradise on Earth! — to justify Korea’s anger, but you are right that this is only “documented” by revitionists with anti-Japanese agendas. Korea’s similar (and even more unsubstantiated) rage targeted towards the United States, a country that sacrified 35,000 and hundreds of thousands wounded to save their ass from eating grass and worshipping poofy hair man, speaks volumes to what this is really about: Korea’s nationalism based on resentment of non-Koreans. Hence Kim Jong Il is more popular in public opinion polls than George W. Bush.
Curzon — I don’t mean to defend exclusionary ethnic nationalism or Kim Jong-il’s popularity in some circles, but attitudes regarding the U.S. are a little more complex than that.
But that’s a whole other post.
Sa Hwa Dong, read and weep,
“China reached the Korean scene first, making its impact felt on northern Korea several centuries before the beginning of the Christian era. By the 7th century, A.D., the Chinese had forced their thought, customs, and manners into the Korean culture and had turned Korea into a virtual satellite. Late in that century, a native dynasty, Chinese-controlled, unified the peninsula. Before then Japan had occasionally invaded southern Korea, but with little lasting effect. Badly defeated by the Koreans in 663 A.D., Japan retired for nearly a thousand years.
Like China, Korea endured the Mongol armies in the 13th century. For nearly a hundred years the savages from the steppes ruled and ravaged Korea. Kublai Khan launched two abortive invasions of Japan from Korea, ruthlessly squandering Korean lives and property in his depredations. With the gradual dissipation of Mongol power by the mid-14th century, Korea again basked in the reflected glory of a revitalized China. Adapting Chinese culture to their own talents, the Koreans
flourished. Skilled artisans, craftsmen, and inventors, as well as philosophers and scholars, brought Korea a level of civilization rivaling that of China. But the Japanese violently disrupted this happy era. In a brutal expedition beginning in 1592, Japanese samurai under the brilliant Hideyoshi pillaged the peninsula for seven years. Aided by China, the Koreans eventually expelled the Japanese, but their home had become a wasteland. Their best artisans and scholars, along with the greater part of their portable treasure, were taken home by the Japanese.
In the following centuries, Korea kept loose cultural and political ties with China but withdrew from contact with the rest of the world. It never again reached the level of civilization the Japanese had destroyed. When Western influence spread to Asia in the 19th century, China’s peculiar relationship with Korea baffled the West. Western efforts to trade with Korea were thwarted by this misunderstanding. The Koreans received Western overtures coldly. They impartially murdered French missionaries and American and Dutch seamen. Several punitive expeditions by these Western nations against Korea failed to improve relations.
Unfortunately for Korea’s privacy, in 1860 Russia reached Korea’s borders and later in the century westernization again whetted Japan’s appetite for territorial expansion. With China, Japan, and Russia fighting for control of Korea throughout the rest of the 19th century, the Korean people had little chance to learn self-government. They remained separate from the modern world emerging around them. ”
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/pd-c-01.htm
Thanks, Paul H. for introducing this site.
We, Koreans, are Chinese+Mongolians.
I am not advocating we go back to being a satellite of China, even though that is what Korean commies want.
This is the best times for Korea. Let’s stay that way. Even if it means we play the second string to the U.S.
Baduk, that Koreans are Chinese + Mongolians is a bizarre (and wrong) simplification.
And this was hysterical:
“the brilliant Hideyoshi pillaged the peninsula for seven years. Aided by China, the Koreans eventually expelled the Japanese, but their home had become a wasteland. Their best artisans and scholars, along with the greater part of their portable treasure, were taken home by the Japanese… It never again reached the level of civilization the Japanese had destroyed.
Jeez, what isn’t Japan’s fault? Reminds me of Animal Farm: “Snowball came to me in the night and told me not to lay eggs! Snowball came to me in a dream and incited revolution against Animal Farm! Snowball is plotting with the humans to destroy the windmill!” The statements at Animal Farm and coming out of some corners of Korea reveal not the surrounding reality but a damaging psychosis.
Marmot, you are of course right that I am guilty of generalizing. Further clarification always appreciated.
Curzon,
You might enjoy Stephen Turnbull’s “Samurai Invasion”, an account of the Imjin wars. Turnbull is a British scholar with a long demonstrated interest in Japan, but his account of the Imjin Wars paints a pretty bleak picture, and shows great respect for the Koreans. Among those “items” that the Japanese did take home were the best of the Korean potters, thereby establishing what became the Japanese pottery tradition. The idea that Japanese pottery owed anything to Korean pottery certainly was news to me, but apparently true. I’ll have to delve into that overview from the Center for Military History cited and check the author’s background. Some of his points seem a bit oversimplified. (”level of civilization rivaling that of China, etc.)
And the biggest geopolitical crisis of the century was:
World War One?
The Great Depression?
World War Two?
De-colonization?
Taking America off the gold standard?
The collapse of the Soviet Union?
Something else?
What do you think?
And the Japanese took back a bunch of Korean noses, too.
Curzon, I would agree with you that many Koreans have simplified ideas about Japanese and American guilt and past and present involvement in Korea. But not all of them. And the stuff about the Imjin War is completely correct. It was probably on about the same level of destruction as the 30 Years War in parts of Germany. Interestingly, many Koreans are completely unaware that the Chinese sent two 50,000 (or 100,000?) man armies to expell the Japanese. They think it was all Lee Sun Shin.
And anyway, how did this all get sidetracked? I thought we were all supposed to be commenting upon what a fascist revisionist dangerous person Putin is?
Animal Farm comparisons have got to be the dumbest thing I have ever read here that was not intentionally a troll.
I’m at a loss as to explain what you find at all informative about Curzon’s jiralistic rantings. It’s one thing to be critical of Korea or whatever your pet peeve is, but he’s smug and just mean. I looked through his dire little web page, and I really just can’t take seriously anyone who’s crass enough to, without any personal loss of his own, pronounce from his armchair re: “alleged genocide” that “I have precious little sympathy for Armenia.” Nasty.
jyc wrote:
he’s smug and just mean.
you’re such a girl.
Of course I am!
Sisters gotta represent!
There is a famous mural depicting the defeat of the Japanese armada and what it shows (I wish I could remember where it is at, I want to say China ot Taiwan) is that for every Korean ship, there was a Chinese ship. In fact there is at least one Chinese person that opted to stay here in at the end of hostilities and that was the way that family name was introduced to Korea (forgive me, I am having a hard time with the details-help me those of you who might know). That war and the asociated costs are considered strong contributing factors for the demise of the Ming Dynasty in China. The relationship between China and Korea was somewhat unique-some considered it a territory of China and in fact when Japan took over in 1909, this argument was used by both sides to either further involve the Chinese or to justify invasion. Others claim that Korea was a sovereign Chinese protectorate. They payed homage to the Emporer every year sending among other things, tiger skins and Korean paper which was highly valued by the Chinese. The Chinese recipricated these gifts always sending the Koreans back with gifts from the Emporer-pretty benevolent if you ask me. These facts are not mentioned very often in Korea though…
I digress though-yes, I think it is very worrisome that Putin seems to be successfully reversing any democratic progress that has been made in that country in the past 15 years. I suppose that the same argument could be made about Bush and some of the personal freedoms that have been lost in the US under the guise of “the war on terror”-albeit on a much smaller scale. What amazes me is that there are not more people that are upset about this. Then again, the Russians always have tended to think about their history as being very glorious compared to the way things are now.
The infantile self-righteousness of many commenters here has always given me a good chuckle. “Dumbest thing,” my “dire little web page,” (as seen on MSNBC!), “crass,” “jiralistic rantings,” etc etc. How much longer until someone invokes Godwin’s law? The hysteria does give me some good laughs, and of course, I’ve been called far worse.
If I’m wrong, tell me where I’m wrong — hysteria doesn’t win you any points. As for my dire little web page, I’ll get to the Armenian genocide in the not too distant future, but in a word, the hype is overblown. Deportation, massacre, civil war, that’s all true — it just wasn’t a genocide.
(Sorry for now taking these comments way, way off topic.)
Uh, curz, duh…. Double duh… Do I even need to point out that you’re the one that brought up the gratuitous Orwell reference?
I do not appreciate you ignorant and impudent peons commenting on things you have no knowledge of. I have noted your names. That is all.
- V. Putin
P.s., I propose “Curzon’s Law” for totally dumb Orwell comparisons.
The comparison is valid.
Animal Farm’s Animals: everything bad that ever happens on this farm is somehow Snowball’s fault
Several commenters on this blog: everything bad that ever happens to Korea is somehow Japan’s fault
JYC, I’m impressed to see that you managed to tone down your insults to just “double duh” and “totally dumb.” Come next year we might be able to have a civil conversation. Keep up the good work.
As valid as Godwin’s Law. I guess I have to remind you that none of us live in or support North Korea or Cuba or somewhere else where that might actually apply, it doesn’t seem to have occurred to you. Otherwise you’ve made a totally flakey analogy.
You really stepped in a pile of rhetorical poo poo, and if you’ll forgive me, I’ll just indulge myself in a chuckle at your attempts to backtrack and wipe it off your shoes.
I think I should go propose Curzon’s Law to Wikipedia.
No allegation is made that you support the DPRK or Cuba. “Otherwise, you’ve made a totally flakey analogy” suggests a lack of familiarity with both Orwell and Animal Farm. Orwell authored brutally brilliant satire and commentary throughout his lifetime that targeted not just communism but also pacifism*, facism, authority, and the darker side of human nature. Animal Farm included jabs to all four of those. To spell out in simple words (again): The Animal Farm reference was made to Baduk for the “Korea hasn’t developed since the 17th century, and it’s all Japan’s fault” suggestion. Should you need more direct information, I would invite you here. You are welcome to add Curzon’s law to wikipedia — I’m honored.
*= “The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. . . ” Orwell, 1945
I’m Curzon, dammit! As seen on MSNBC! Armenians! Let me tell you! Koreans! Don’t get me started! I’m HUGE in cyberspace, dammit!
Slim said:
but no person of decency would say they missed the Soviet Union.
How dare you, sir, impugn the entire New York Times op-ed staff?!
from curzon’s link to godwin’s law:
In addition, it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin’s law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin’s law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.
got that, curzon? according to the very link you gave us, your own behavior is ‘poor form.’
look, baduk, whose thoughts are all over the map (with some shooting into space) cannot accurately be used to represent the korean, kyopo, or korea-friendly everyperson. (i hearby propose baduk’s law: “a person has lost her/his argument when he/she uses something baduk’s words as an example of how koreans, kyopos, or korea-friendly people think.” wikipedia may want to add capitalization before publishing this.
i suppose there could be a law on the other side of the argument as well, but marmot keeps removing some of the most egregiuos posters.
anyway, curzon, i have been to your site, i was impressed by some of it, but i have to admit that your petty bickering on this site has caused you to fall a notch or two in my book.
not that you would care; i don’t even have graphics on my site.
I’m no fan of the Communist regimes of the past, but people look back on the 1970s and 1980s in particular as a golden era. I mean, back then people got their salaries on time, they were able to afford most goods (BTW, there were NEVER breadlines, just lines for other consumer items), they got their pensions, there was no drugs or AIDS, no terrorism, very low crime. While Moscow has certainly boomed, and many in the savvy new generation have fared well, if you look at most human development indices (life expentancy, infant mortality), they’ve collapsed.
This is especially true of many of the former republics, who used to received generous subsidies from the federal center and were completely unprepared for the costs of independence.
I think THAT’s what Putin is referring to - besides the reach of the great Soviet empire, of course.
does talk of the glory days of the soviet union scare ukrainians, belarussians, armenians, baltic staters, etc.? maybe. and if so, do they have good reason to be scared?
while i don’t think modern japan is particularly comparable to the modern soviet union, i can see why some people might similarly get anxious over the rise of the right in japan.
Baduk makes some interesting points. While I would not consider myself all knowing in this area, I do not consider myself ignorant either. My understanding of the origins of the Korean people is that they come from somewhere in Northern Asia and have been present here on the Korean peninsula. During the time that the Mongols ruled the Korean Peninsula, they forced Korean royalty to marry Mongolian princesses and to be educated in Mongolia until they were old enough to rule. I have not been able to learn exactly what the relationship between Mongolians and Koreans are genetically or otherwise but would be very interested to learn if you know of any reliable sources. Chinese and Koreans are from different ancestors. Chinese in general have some very different traits ranging from teeth shape (a large part of the people of Korean ancestry have shovel shaped incisors compared to flat incisors that would be found on people of European ancestory. There is the ratio of lenth of trunk to length of legs (the old short leg paradigm) and there are more. Japanese are at least partialy of Korean descent but it is important to note that there were aboriginal residents of the Japanese islands known as Ainu who tend to be short and hairy and are rumored to have been comparitively primitive culturally before the Koreans introduced what they had, the vast majority of which, was introduced from China via government sponsored exchanges, religious exchanges (Buddhism) and from people like Choi… I cant think of the rest of his name-the guy that went to China to study and brought back confucianism to Korea. I would argue that all of these peoples are not the same despite connections and relationships they have shared over time.
Oh yeah-down with Putin!
James,
I was told that Koreans came from some region around Turkey and that is the reason that some of us have “European” look. I was once mistaken as a South American. My two brothers, both 100% Korean, can be easily mistaken for middle Eastern men or Nicaraguans.
However, after learning that Korea was ruled by Mongols for 100years, I am of the conclusion that we gained this European look from Mongols. Them Mongols were some horny bunch. They worked night and day with Korean women. Relatively high nose (compared to the Chinese) came from them, I presume.
I see many Chinese in LA. They look like Koreans. Of course, there are about 30% of Koreans and Chinese that I can tell right away. However, about 60% I cannot tell which is which. About 10%, I misidentify.
Koreans being unique? I tell you, if you take a picture of Beijing and just replace the street signs and shop names, you wouldn’t tell it from Seoul. I bet ya!
China is big country. The Northern Chinese, those who speak Mandarin, look very much like us. I believe Koreans and the Japanese came from China. Then, we got mixed with Mongols and Japanese got mixed with island people(=Philippines or Thai) and Ainu.
Recent PBS broadcast showed Ainu to be “white”. They were claiming the black haired and brown eyed people (Chinese) killed off the whites on the Japan islands and took over. Then, they try to make the case that original inhabitants of North America were whites. Ha!
baduk is al qaeda!
When I first looked at the geographic special on Mongolia, I realized that we are Mongols. Their children looked exactly like us and their old men looked exactly like North Koreans.
I mean 100%.
Face it! Even a South Korean look more like a Chinese and a North Korean a Mongol, one can not honestly deny we look like them. We are them.
There is an old saying that “women look better in the North Korea and men in the South”. NK women may had more European look(they moved down South during Korean War)while NK men with protruding cheekbones may have been looked down.
Nora,
Does it shock you that we are Chineses and Mongols? You, like the Japanese, think that we are better than them? Do you have the Japanese elitist mentality that we are much smarter, cleaner, and cuter than them?
Any non-Asian will tell you that Koreans look exactly like them. Isn’t it time for us to recognize that? Or, do you prefer playing the Japanese game: “we are not Asians”.
It never ceases to amaze me how far off the target we can get.
i have looked into this, too, and i think i’m a mixture of mongolian, japanese, and eskimo. maybe some portuguese or dutch thrown into the japanese or korean mix from long ago.
nora that describes almost all Koreans
well, duh!
Duh uhhh!
Japanese and Koreans are the same?
Wait just a second….
How long have you guys lived in Korea?
I can’t even begin to count the number of times I’ve had Koreans [usually drunk harabojis] tell me the Korean version of the Japanese foundation myth–how the Japanese ‘race’ first came to be.
It goes like this:
[begin drunken slurred speech] A long long time ago a bunch of drunk Korean fishermen [sound familiar yet?] were in their boats catching fish when a storm arose and blew them out to sea. The boats were destroyed and the men marooned on a myseterious uninhabited island, which of course was Japan. They had no way to go home so they made the best of their situation and mated with the local macaques. [Insert obscene gestures to describe this act.] This became the Japanese people. [end drunken slurred speech.]
C’mon, don’t tell me none of you have ever had a Korean friend tell you this one before?
Of course the second part of that myth goes (disclaimer: myth as refered to in this posting is not meant to infer that the following statements are true or false but rather represent a proclaimed beliefe that the author has been exposed to by numerous people representing themselves to be Korean. The author can neither confirm or deny the truthfulness or historical accuracy, directly stated or otherwise implied, of said myth) like this: When Shilla took over Paekche, rather than submit to the new rulers as the aristocracy of Gaya had, the aristocracy got in boats and fled to the uncivilized islands to the east (known today as Japan). With them went all maner of cultural know how ranging from ceramics to paper production to art and caligraphy to the production of fine silk and so on. The Gaya aristocracy didn’t really get the brown end of the stick-they married into the royal family and kept their social position. Today those families are known as the Kyoungju Kim family (aka the old Kim family, Shilla royalty) and the Kimhae Kim family (aka the new Kim family or previously known as the Gaya royal family).
Some myth.
Damn that Putin! Democratic Russia for ever!
lirelou: You’re slightly off about Japan getting their pottery tradition by pillaging Korea. In fact Japan’s pottery tradition is among the oldest in the world going back at least 3000 years. What they got from Korea was porcelain, which they had little to no prior experience with, as opposed to clay based pottery which they were quite adept at.
Baduk:”7) There was no separate Korean identity different from that of the Chinese until the Japanese took over Korea.
Japan fabricated the Korean history and declared Koreans to be a separate people. What they teach in Korean schools are Japan?€™s invention of Korean history. Korean people are not unique, as much as the Japanese are not unique. Koreans are mixed race of the Chinese and the Mongols.”
Where do you get this nonsense? If you assume that language groups have even the loosest correlation with ethnic history (which is a pretty reasonable assumption) then you can see that the Koreans and Chinese do NOT come from the same original group- the languages have absolutely nothing in common whatsoever. Chinese and Tibetan languages form one group, and Korean is part of the Tungusic branch of the Mongol-Altaic language family (with Japanese most likely partially derived from a pre-Korean language spoken in the area.)
Your later comment about similarities in different areas is true, but that comes from mixing over the course of thousands of years, not a common origin.
Mutant (Ninja?) Tuttle,
1) Chinese language is not just one. There are five major dialects. They sound very different. Can one sound similar to Korean? And, I am not linguistic experts, but I will not be surprise if Mongolian speech is similar to Koreans.
2) The Chinese, Koreans and the Japanese look similar. Language may be different but if we look the same, can we apply “the one that looks like a duck and walks like a duck..” analogy?
3)”Your later comment about similarities in different areas is true, but that comes from mixing over the course of thousands of years, not a common origin.” Do I need to say more? Mixing and mixing…Mongol blood in me? Why the origin matter when enough mixing has occurred and original traits, if ever existed, have all diluted?
James,
Kim,Yi, etc are all Chinese last names. How come we Koreans have Chinese last names? Why didn’t we keep the original Korean names? Yangbans may have come from China while Ssangnoms were the original natives of Korean peninsula.
All right. Despite the fact that it is late, I will reply. The Korean language has existed as a spoken language for a very long time (not exactly sure how long). Until Sejong and his scientists invented the phonetic Korean alphabet that we know today as Hangeul, Koreans (that were literate) wrote and read classical Chinese (not the bastardized stuff used in the PRC). If documents written by Koreans and Chinese from that era are compared, linguistically they are the same. That does not mean that Koreans spoke Chinese. Later, a system known as Edu was introduced in which everything was still written in Chinese characters but some of the characters were used for meaning while others were used for the phonetic pronunciation they produced when read in Korean-meaning that A) you had to be really well studied to be able to understand and B) the Korean language was being written at a certain level (Edu makes no sense to Chinese speakers). Widespread use of Hangeul finally caught on by and large after WW2. That doesn’t explain the origin of Korean names but it does explain why most of them can be written in Chinese characters. BTW Kim is Jin, Cho is Zhao and so on in Chinese. The characters may be the same but their phonetic pronunciation is completly different. While I am not going to ask what this has to do with Putin, please enlighten the rest of us as to what bearing this has on how many bananas a monkey can eat-whether or not you have Mongolian, Chinese, Japanese or any combination of those ancestors (with or without the European for good measure), does that make anyone more or less Korean (or what ever nationality you profess to be)?
off the topics,
in recent news by the japanese version of chosun ilbo wrote, trees inplanted during ex-president park era were cut down by the remarks of the head of cultural minister (dont know the exact title)that these trees implies pro-japs.
and, another article only in japs version that a comedian who wrote a book about the so-called pro-japs remarks is recently suffering from netizen attacks and eventually fired by a long lasting kbs radio program.
where is freedom of speech in the country and why only these incidents were posted only in japanese verson, not in english version?????
where is concsience of korean medias???? where is the freedom of speech in this country? is it already following the big brother, china, who suddenly starting to arrest instigators of anti-japs demonstration???
Mae, South Korea isn’t following China. South Korean journalism is on the Vanguard of questionable journalism.
Putin says he is a man of peace.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20.....3printer=1
He said he stopped many “dangerous” weapon sales. Hmm..Who’s selling and who’s stopping? “I could have hurt you more but I stopped because I love you, bitch”?
Mae, the tree cutting story is well-known here: “After national liberation from Japanese colonial rule, the country began to cut down the trees because the cherry blossom was known as the national flower of Japan. But as Prunus yedoensis became known to be native to Jeju Island, a campaign was launched to replant the cherry trees.” From KBS Web site.
There briefly was also a nationalistic campaign to get rid of the acacia trees, since many were (supposedly) planted during the Japanese occupation period. There was some alleged logic behind it, too, with some people pointing out that this spiny tree (which is not even native to Japan) might be pushing out native species.
However, a number of scientists and other Koreans who knew better pointed out that the acacia were growing in places where indigenous trees would not grow (like rocky outcrops in hillsides, for example) and they were thus helping prevent erosion. Besides, it was pointed out, they can be quite beautiful.
Cutting down trees to snub Japan is something that, to most Koreans I would say, is going too far. Look how many people flock to see the cherry blossoms bloom. They don’t care that it’s the national flower of Japan.
So when it comes to Japan, Koreans will cut down trees, cut off fingers, and cut off their nose to spite their face….
Not exactly, Michael. When it comes to Japan, some Koreans will cut down trees and a miniscule 3/50,000,000 fraction will cut off fingers to spite their face.
It is, by the way, the Japanese that cut off Korean noses. Any Korean will tell you that.
Touche, Kushibo.
michael,
this time, it is himarayan fern, not cherry tree, in some musium.
and in the following article at chosum ilbo today, it said “3″ comments were posted to express anger of cutting down trees in the musium homepage.
glad to know there are people with common sense!
A fern? Ferns were all over the earth for millions of years before people…ah, the craziness…but Kushibo was right, it’s just a vocal minority that indulges in this.
I live in Japan, and all that discussion about how Japanese history books are inaccurate is pretty ridiculous. Whose country has accurate history books? The British history books say that they went around the world civilising people, the Spanish say that they discovered America (why, nobody knew it existed? Nobody was living there before??) and then did all these good things (forgetting the tens or hundred of millions of the original inhabitants who died). The US history books largely ignore all the crimes against humanity and the human rights abuses the US government has carried out all over the world (from south and central America to Asia and Africa) in the last 60 years. Only the Germans are actually admitting what they did.
There are a number of Chinese languages/dialects, but they are verifiably related, sharing a number of similarities in grammar, vocabulary, phonology. For example, they are all tonal, although some have different numbers of tones. If you look at any linguistics text in the entire world, written in any language, it will confirm what I’m saying. Korean has absolutely no linguistic similarity to Chinese whatsoever. I know Japanese, I’m studying Chinese now, and I’ve studied Korean a little, and I can tell you that Korean and Japanese have almost identical word order, tenses, types of modifiers or pronouns, etc. whereas Chinese has none of these in common with those languages. I don’t know anything personally about Mongolian/Manchu/Turkik languages but from what I have read or been told they also share a number of grammatical similarities with Korean and Japanese.
Kim, Yi, etc are mostly derived from the names of clans that either came from China to rule over conquered Korean territory or were given to Koreans by Chinese rulers or taken by Koreans in emulation of their Chinese or Sinified-Korean rulers. Maybe Koreans had no last names before that point? Many cultures historically haven’t had family names, or at least only for the upper classes. We’ll never know, since they had no writing system before the Chinese began to dominate culture on the penninsula.
Who let the dogs our? Woof Woof Woof!
Chinese languages/dialects, but they are verifiably related
Give the man a ticket to Hakka 101!
I don’t recall if Hakka is actually a Chinese dialect or not. There are a few dozen languages found within the borders of China that have no relation to Chinese itself.
Hakka is a chinese dialect in the same way cantonese or hokkien are, just not closely associated with a particular area the way cantonese is spoken in guangdong province or hokkien is spoken in fujian province.
Mutantfrog,
Your glavatar is so sinister. Evil ooze out of it. Where did you get the picture? From “demons in animal kingdom” TV program? Everytime I look at it, it give me creeps. Yet, I like it in a way. Very strange…
And, forgive me for calling you MutantTuttle on the last post. The cartoon was so popular that if someone hears the word “mutant”, he assumes a tuttle. Your glavatar sort of look tuttlish as well.
BTW, are you an evironmental freak? Is that why you use the penname? And, one more thing, do you look like the picture?
baduk,
I actually don’t remember where the picture is from, I found it on some webpage many years ago and I’ve just had it on my computer ever since. I think it’s actually a picture of a normal tree frog from S America and not a mutant, but if you look close at the smile and the way he holds his hands, he’s a little too intelligent looking to be just an ordinary frog…
I suppose I’m more environmentalist than not, but hardly a freak about it. The name doesn’t really mean anything special, except that I’ve been using it for internet chat and so on for something like 10 years now.
Does baduk mean something? Is it your real name?
Baduk is a board game that I enjoy. It is a strategy game much like the chess game, but much,much deeper. A computer can play the master level chess, but it can only play the mediocre level in baduk. Baduk is called Go in Japan and Weiqi in China.
There are professional players in many countries and sometimes they have international team competition. Korea has been dominant in last two decades but China is quickly catching up.
Do a search on “baduk”. I hope you have time to get into the game.
Baduk (also spelled paduk) is go in Japanese, which is also the word commonly used for this in the West.
It is often argued that to understand the Western mind, one should learn and study chess, while to understand the Asian mind, one should learn and study paduk.
Or, replace chess and paduk with “Godfather” and “Old Boy.”
Wasn’t the Godfather a great movie? They don’t make them like that any more. I have just come back from a movie theater. I saw “Hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy”(good), “Who came to dinner”(boring) and “House of Mr.D”(boring). I see three or four movies for the admission price of $7.50, because these days no movie is worth more than two dollars.
However, in the last year, I saw some memorable movies; “Nicotina”,”Troy”, “Spiderman 2″ and “the Incredibles”. were pretty bad. “Kill Bill 2″ and “Bridget Jones’s Diary 2″ were better than the originals.
There is a very artistic movie, “the Girl with Pearl earings”. It will blow your socks off. Especially if you are a artsy type, which I am not. I just appreciate all the computer work gone into that picture.
I must confess that I had a major crush on Mrs. Incredible (the elastic lady); she is just what I want my woman to be. But, I don’t feel right about it. Feeling lust about a cartoon character at my age? Do you think I need to see a psychatrist, of which my nephew is one?
“were pretty bad” should be removed. I must left it there by accident.
Tell me about your favorite movies. Let’s bring some art and culture into this site, people.
The fact of the matter is that there are some staunchy nationalistic Japanese still around, whose conservative politics are appreciated by the majority in Japan. Losing face with your constituents is deadly, and carries profound political consequences. What’s a few million yen, to compensate the “comfort women”, to keep your school’s history books the way you want them to read?
Mutantfrong: Surely, you meant prior to the two colonization attempts by Japan, that Korean and Japanese languages share no similarity. In all reality, I suspect both Korean and Japanese have more English loan words, than either share from one another’s language.
We should all just speak Chinese, 50% of the world does.