A couple of interesting looks at the New Songdo City project, kindly sent by a reader.
New Songdo City pieces
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I hope that ramp jutting out into the sea is a waterslide…..
I think that ramp out into the water is the postmodern version of “walking the plank.” They will push executives off it when Songdo goes bankrupt.
Please, let’s at least try to give Songdo a chance. In a country with such repulsively ugly, chaotic, disastrously misplanned cities, any attempt at change is to be lauded.
I read the one piece and it summed up the problems not only with songdo but all the “hub” dreams here: “But some planning factors may indeed be important to New Songdo?€™s success. Interviewed executives in the 2003 article declared their preference for locations with a familiar Western feel. The executives also said that on the whole they would only consider building their headquarters in a city after they had built up a high level of comfort by doing business there for many years. New Songdo?€™s planners have thought deeply about how to appeal to Westerners and Koreans alike, and how to make a new city feel established and comfortable?€“though it is unclear whether a new city could ever feel as familiar as its centuries-old rivals.
In adhering to the formula that good design will make a city commercially appealing to corporations, the developers seem to have glossed over the people who aren?€™t part of their business plan?€“namely, the poor and working-class. It is impossible to have a city where only white-collar office workers live because office functions need support industries: they need people to launder their shirts, print their documents and make their take-out dinners. Those in the service industry will necessarily make less money than their counterparts and live in less desirable neighborhoods; how does one plan for this?” Again, the best way to draw foreign businesspeople here is to stop treating them like “foreigners,” and for Koreans to treat themselves better, i.e. follow traffic laws, stop littering, and so on. The country still has potential, it doesn’t need and won’t profit from schemes like songdo.
OK I can see your point and obviously the potential for Songdo to be like Brasilia is there. Still there are no examples of cities with any sort of planning, adequate park space, reasonable cultural facilities, non-shoddy architecture, pedestrian facilities, etc. of any kind at all in Korea. They just don’t see the need for these things yet and there has to be some way to show that these things are actually desirable. Cleaning up litter, stopping spitting, following traffic laws, improving customer service, and removing red tape on foreign residents all have to be done, but that alone isn’t going to make Korean cities pleasant and habitable, they’d still lack parks, museums, libraries, pedestrian spaces, modern sewage, plumbing, and gas lines, architecture that isn’t shockingly bad, and all the other amenities. Hence maybe, just maybe, Songdo might have some value in changing the mentality here even if it’s a total dog financially.
The financing for New Songdo City is going just fine, thank you very much. It is far too early for naysaying, unless of course one of you knows something I don’t about this project, which is unlikely.
Well Jyc I support your optimism, but I don’t think these corporate ghettos, especially because they’re physically segregated from most Koreans, will have much influence. Anyway, going on this drawing, it doesn’t look any better than a row of Samsung-built highrise tombstones, er, apartments. The parks, museums, libraries, pedestrian spaces are needed, some smaller cities like Gangneung have them, but you’re right, in Korea they mainly don’t see the need for them yet, maybe because they don’t generate $$$$. And Dogbert, I question the rationale for the entire project, not whether people are throwing money at it.
If you do a close up — Korean Sunday morning pizza’s are already sprouting all along the boardwalk. Watch your step, folks!
Metropolis.
Personally, as a disciple of Jane Jacobs and also a fan of New Urbanism , I am skeptical of large-scale planned developments. Yet, is New Songdo City that different from the sort of urban planning and development we already see in Korea? No, it isn’t. It just happens to be getting a lot of press (and derision in some quarters) because of its association with the overhyped notion of Korea becoming the “Hub of Northeast Asia”. Michael, New Songdo City will not be physically segregated from most Koreans, where do you get that? Have you seen the plans at all or only that picture? Parks and pedestrian spaces are abundant in the plans. Let’s not forget too that the driving force behind New Songdo City is a U.S. development firm, so it won’t be entirely the “Samsung tombstones” one might expect. As far as “throwing money”, the institutions that decide to participate in the financing are, perhaps, a bit more sophisticated in their decision-making, albeit perhaps less sophisticated than the self-styled Korean pundits and perennial Ph.D.-candidate English teachers who know better.
Frankly speaking, the thing that is going to draw foreigners to any place (Korea or otherwise) at the end of the day is going to be a pleasent place to live for the entire family. This means international schools and hospitals (perhaps the top concerns), parks and green space, English speaking law enforcement,(and I do believe Songdo is going to be an official English-speaking city), various leisure facilities, solid infrastructure and convenient transportation modes, etc.
Judging on what I know about Songdo, it will have all of that. While nice aesthetics are definately a plus, they aren’t the driving force. People will come to Songdo because their job requires it of them, not necessarily out of free will. And businesses will come to the area because of an ideal business environment but also out of concerns for their employees and how happy they will be living in a certain area–and that happiness isn’t going to be decided by the most beautiful settings alone, but more out of access to quality living needs for the entire family first and foremost with beautiful settings as a lesser concern.
What?!? No ??¤??¨?°??Œ?? More than a yard between two buildings? Real sidewalks? Nah, it’s just a drawing, right?
Dogbert, I’m also a fan of Jane Jacobs, and that old crank Lewis Mumford, but I don’t condemn all planned developments out of hand. Maybe I’m not being clear, but regardless of who is behind it, the thing is on landfill near the airport, not integrated into Seoul. It would just be good to see the Korean gov’t putting its weight and social overhead capital behind all the things Jyc mentioned before. As for the “pundit” and “English teacher” cracks, I confess to a bit of the former, but I’m not here teaching–so big dog, who are you?
Shit, dogbert, that there is finance for New Songdo City is no surprise at all. With sovereign guarantees and fat fees, I would imagine that the investment wankers fell all over themselves to get a place at the trough.
OTOH, if it has parks and pedestrian spaces, then yes, it’s a lot different from what we already see in Korea. I have to climb up a very steep hill to get to a tiny “park” in my neighborhood, and every day clamber up and down overpasses and subterranean walkways because they’ve removed all the pedestrian crossings, not to mention the fact that I have to wait about as twice as long to rush across the street in Seoul as I would in a less stubbornly auto obessessed city. There is no park even like Yoyogi Koen or 228 Park in Taipei, let alone anything comparable to Central Park or Golden Gate Park.
I am also a fan of Jane Jacobs
??¼??° and ??°?³¸, both “new cities” that supposedly were planned before being build are much nicer to live in than other older Korean cities that lack any semblance of urban design or planning. That said, no matter how hard they try, I cannot believe that Songdo will be any different. Regardless of funding, the value of the land and the desire to make a quick profit will be too much. The picture is nice but it is not Korea nor do I believe that Korea can take that shape. I don’t think that those of us that live here want Korea to become a Euro/NAmerican copy but I also think that most of us would agree that there is plenty of room to make things more liveble.
Seems risky. It will work if it’s always viewed as a unit. Once we begin to renovate one area rather than the entire unit then we have defeated the purpose of constructing it as a unit.
Per Michael’s comment:
Again, the best way to draw foreign businesspeople here is to stop treating them like ?€œforeigners,?€? and for Koreans to treat themselves better, i.e. follow traffic laws, stop littering, and so on. The country still has potential, it doesn?€™t need and won?€™t profit from schemes like songdo.Amen and amen.
Songdo is an interesting idea but is like putting new wine in old bottles. The thinking behind it is still the old “ajoshi-style” and not based in any enlightened approach to quality-of-life issues or anything based in reality or Korean society.
I fear that Songdo will look like Pudong in Shanghai but without the location just across the river from old Shanghai. Individual buuildings are stunning, but do they cohere? Blocks will probably be too large, buildings set back too far from streets. It will also suffer, despite designs by many architects, from sameness. That is due to being an instant city. However, design is one thing, but don’t underestimate, the power of issues concerning hospitals, amenities, education, and safety.
As far as Korea becoming a Hub, I suggest that people get a hold of the paper cited in The Next American City article. It has good info from surveys and solid research.The article used to be on the internet but I can’t find it now. I thought I had downloaded it from AmChamKorea.
You-Il Lee and Michael Hobday. ?€œKorea?€™s New Globalization Strategy: Can Korea Become a Business Hub in Northeast Asia??€? Management Decision Vol. 41 No. 5 (2003).
The key will be to push the construction companies not to build apartments that look like American inner-city public housing complexes. Unfortunately I have a feeling that conversation will go like this:
Kohn Pedersen Fox: We’re thinking, let’s ditch the pastel peach and green concrete apartments. The future residents of Seongdo would rather not have WE’VE ?‘???°?±´??¤ #37″ written in four-story letters down the side of their residence. At least 10% of the Korean discount is due to your ugly-ass buildings. No mas.
Korean translator: He admires Doosan’s buildings very much, and has shown pictures of “We’ve” luxury apartments to his American friends who are now convinced that Korea is the cement building innovation hub of Asia. He wonders if your company have experimented with using other raw materials and design schemes for your projects, and whether you might consider using these innovative new concepts for your buildings in Seongdo.
Construction company managing director’s brain: ERROR #1 - CHANGE SUGGESTED. ERROR #2 - CHANGE SUGGESTED BY FOREIGNER. DOES NOT COMPUTE. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Construction company managing director: Well [dramatically sucks air through teeth] tell him that I think we may have been working on innovative designs. But even if we have, Doosan buildings have proven very popular in Seoul the way they are, and I refuse to consider anything that deviates from the “massive concrete box” design that my father got a B- on in freshman-year architecture class in 1964. But we will definitely include a $5000 ubiquitous IT system that will turn on the light and pour him a glass of water 10 minutes before he gets home.
Translator: He thanks you for your interest, and he will send his new innovations to you by email later after they have gone through the standard internal approval process.
What essentially did that article say?
http://www.americancity.org/ar.....ticle=116?€€to see for yourself.
I hope they don’t put another freeway next to the waterfront.
This is a very good question from that article that I never thought about:
” In adhering to the formula that good design will make a city commercially appealing to corporations, the developers seem to have glossed over the people who aren?€™t part of their business plan?€“namely, the poor and working-class. It is impossible to have a city where only white-collar office workers live because office functions need support industries: they need people to launder their shirts, print their documents and make their take-out dinners. Those in the service industry will necessarily make less money than their counterparts and live in less desirable neighborhoods; how does one plan for this? “
The poor and the working class are glossed over pretty much everywhere, as not much housing is built specifically for them in any country. How many municipalities in the US are OK with the idea of low income housing in their neighborhood?
I doubt Songdo will push Korea into a North East Asian hub. Even if it proves successful, China can easily copy the same method to recreate the same thing, hire foreigners to design the city from ground up.
Having said that, I think Songdo is a good start for Korea to open up the economy. It’s very difficult to change old Seoul where decades of thoughtless development during 1960’s to 1990’s makes it an urban nightmare. If it’s a nightmare job to change what already has been overbuilt, then it’s a good ideal erasing the chalk board, and start from scratch again and rebuilt everything from scratch. Do it right this time, and put forth proper planning, Sim City here we come.
The more I read about Songdo, the more I like it. It will be a city of not just foreigners, but also Koreans - a multi cultral city. What could you not like about that? The city will have all the amenities that foreign residents always complain that there is lack of in Korea, and more. A hub it probably won’t be, but I think it has a chance to be a Hong Kong of Korea - a city state within a large country, driving business development and being a role model for the rest of the mainland country, just like what Hong Kong was to China during the 80’s and 90’s. Hong Kong’s dynamism opened up the entire southern China area of Guangdong. I see that the same thing could happen for Songdo.
If this becomes successful, why wouldn’t some other genius figure out that hey, if what Songdo is making everyone rich, why don’t we try the same ideals in Pusan or Seoul? Instead, we’ll refurbish those cities with same ideals as Songdo with less but still profitable premium attached to them?
Korea needs to open its laws everywhere, not built ghettos of liberalness. FEZs are for the third-world, not (almost) modern countries.
Also, after years of having too little housing for its population, Seoul at last has too much. The time for mindless building is almost over… especially in a spot over an hour away from all the places one might want to go to (museums, corporate headquarters, etc.).
1) the “Palaces” around Seoul are criminally ill-maintained. Not only are the floor linoleum, they often are quite moldy (Bimilwon). Also ahistorical and ugly.
2) Most of the city’s cultural centers have poor acoustics and extremely uncomfortable, small seats (LG Arts Center is better). The orchestras’ tend to be really wooden and play the most conservative programs (Universal Ballet, on the other hand, is extremely good… one of the best anywhere). There is close to zero support in the city of repertoiry movie theaters (many have tried and failed).
3) Now, the center of the city is being Ilsan-ized. Poor, redbrick neighborhoods are being gutted and filled with those ugly, UGLY apartment blocks. How hard would it be to build decent-looking building? Can you zone for that? Certainly the city can do something about the shitty quality of these apartments.
These are all factors in Seoul that need to be improved before someone constructs some new, soulless pseudo-city in the outskirts.
you’re right, anonymous, that the palaces themselves could be better maintained, but as for the park-like aspects of the palace grounds, i think they’re reasonable okay.
i don’t know much about the small seats of the arts centers since i’m a small person myself (i’ve never had any complaints). i haven’t been in the sejong center since they refurbished it (unless that was when david copperfield was here, since i had free tickets).
i saw the original broadway cast of les miserables here twice. that was nice. also the original cast of cats (which i thought was overrated). they do need to bring better plays here.
and they are building more aesthetically appealing apartments, not just the cookie-cutter concrete monstrosities. ichon has some nice ones.
i don’t think it’s an either-or kind of thing. i think that good architecture in songdo will be a factor in improving architectural aesthetics in new buildings elsewhere.
Maybe its just where I lived when I was in Seoul, Mok Dong, but within about a 15 minute walk of my apartment there were at least 10 neighborhood parks with trees and a playground. There were a couple of the random hill type parks that existed only because no one wanted to build on them. I would say within a 30 minute walk there were 5 large parks covering the equivalent of at least 4 square American blocks. Plus all of the Mok Dong Apartment complexes, I believe there are a total of 13, have extensive geenary and play equipment. Next time you are at immigration there is a nice large park right next to it.
Is that a TIE fighter in the photo or am I imagining things? Well if in the next few years Korean can get an aerodynamically unstable thing like that in the air, building a new city should be a peice of cake!
Everybody’s complaining about Seoul, and they have their points. What you’re saying about air pollution, traffic, and most everything else is true. BUT, Seoul has an energy to it; it has a feel. The jostling and pushing just adds to it. Relentless, pulsing. And as for the parks, the whole thing is surrounded by beautiful mountains accessable by the subway. Even better.
Rather than Songdo, I think the municipal government should keep the walls up around Yongsan and only allow English speakers to live there when the Americans leave. That would be much more convenient, allow everyone access to Seoul, and let us live in a green place with our own traffic and parking laws.
“Korean Sunday morning pizza” is the pitiful attmept of our oppressed brethen to copy to victorious songun pizza with anchovies and “special meat”. That is, *without* “special meat”.
We have also perfected the superior “Sunday morning pizza” which will crush the imperialist oppressors, as reported by the Drudge Report:
USA Warns N Korea May Be Preparing Puke Test
Fri Apr 22 2005 16:14:38 ET
The U.S. has quietly warned China that North Korea could be preparing for a songun-pizza test and asked the Chinese to urge Pyongyang to desist, according to a U.S. official.
etc. etc.
Beware! We will turn America into a sea of songun Sunday morning pizza!*
*with anchovies
We apologise for the comment from our Dear Leader, which was incoherent and not particularly funny. Poor Dear Leader had a tooth extracted this morning, and also has been eating too much “special meat”. We promise he will be funnier next time.
Bluejeans,
Great idea. Let’s designate Itaewon/Yongsan area to be English only zone. School kids can come and learn English. College students can hang out and learn English and American/Canadian/European culture. International businessmen, intellectuals and even newspaper reporters can learn about other cultures.
Anybody caught speaking Korean there will be fined $10 per violation. With three violation, he will be banned from the area.
Before Rho-Commie took over, there were even discussion about conducting Korean national assembly sessions in English. Now, any Korean fluent in English can be accused of being anti-Korean. How far we have fallen!
Hmmm, I just hope the usual property punters won’t make the city worse. Rem Koolhaas sums it up as:
“People can inhabit anything. And they can be miserable in anything and ecstatic in anything. More and more, I think that architecture has nothing to do with it.”
– Rem Koolhaas, Wired Magazine, July 1996
What makes a great city, is certainly not its iconic, shiny superstructures, it is the people who form the essence of a livable space.
The mayor of seoul is going overboard to install cultural facilities, pedestrian facilities, and adequate park space.
Seoul is way way behind in all of these, and not only behind Europe and America, but behind most capitals in Asia. I personally think only Jakarta and Manila can compete with Seoul in shoddy construction, poorly surfaced roads and sidewalks, pedestrian hostility, and lack of greenery and cultural facilities.
I am much less sanguine that peop
The mayor trying to make improvements is certainly a good thing, but the distance between the Korean built environment and that in other countries is already enormous.
how many major cities have a national park within their borders
The Presidio is a national park, and you can just walk into it from San Francisco. Unlike Korean parks, it is not made mostly of concrete, and has actual trees that are more than three feet tall. It has views of the bay and the Golden Gate Bridge, instead of views of freeway ramps, parking lots, and concrete embankments. It was also not designated as a “park” solely because it was a former landfill, on top of a mountain, or otherwise unsuitable for commercial development.
The mayor of seoul is going overboard to install cultural facilities, pedestrian facilities, and adequate park space.
Seoul is just too far behind in all of these, and not only behind Europe and America, but behind most capitals in Asia. I think only Jakarta and Manila can compete with Seoul in shoddy construction, badly surfaced roads and sidewalks, pedestrian hostility, and lack of trees, grass, and cultural facilities.
I am less sanguine that people actually see the need for things like parks, trees, and cultural facilities rather than more and more parking lots, freeways, and concrete, which is why I hope Songdo succeeds.
One thing I wonder about in Songdo is if apartment complexes will insist that every housing unit come with a free parking space by law. This subsidizes the auto industry, encourages people to drive more, and isolates buildings behind giant ugly parking lots. Overemphasis on parking has played a major part in screwing up the built environment here.
sorry bad paste…
For all of you commenting on the lack of greenary within Seoul I think you are mistaken. I have lived in Tokyo and other then a few large parks there, Seoul has more parks especially as you go to the outskirts of both cities. As to Soul not being pedestrian friendly, I have never owned a car in my life, I walk everywhere, Seoul isn’t bad. Yeah the overpasses and undeground walk ways suck, but the more cross walks you put in the more traffic you create. Nothing is more pedestrian unfriendly then a bunch of cars idealing spewing exhaust.
Why build this ugly planned city when the government money could be spent doing a thousand things to make Seoul nicer?
Pretty bizarre priorities, if you ask me.
jyc wrote in response to me:
The mayor of seoul is going overboard to install cultural facilities, pedestrian facilities, and adequate park space.
Seoul is way way behind in all of these, and not only behind Europe and America, but behind most capitals in Asia. I personally think only Jakarta and Manila can compete with Seoul in shoddy construction, poorly surfaced roads and sidewalks, pedestrian hostility, and lack of greenery and cultural facilities.
quick show of hands… which of you in seoul have visited the following places in the past year: sejong cultural center, seoul arts center, the national museum, any palace in the city, secret garden, lg arts center, a concert at a stadium, etc.?
I am much less sanguine that peop
me, too. there’s nothing as scary as sanguine poop.
The mayor trying to make improvements is certainly a good thing, but the distance between the Korean built environment and that in other countries is already enormous.
i totally agree: there’s a long, long way to go. but i do think that the current mayor really is trying to do stuff, not just on the grand level, but on the local level, too. the various ????² are also trying to do that. this is one of the benefits of decentralized government they’ve been touting for so long.
how many major cities have a national park within their borders
The Presidio is a national park, and you can just walk into it from San Francisco.
not to split hairs, but the presidio is not in a national park but in a national recreation area (specifically, golden gate national recreation area).
the presidio is a nice, beautiful park, but it isn’t a mountainous park or anything like tobongsan, where there is beautiful hiking and some serious rock climbing.
maybe nearby muirwoods national monument in marin county is more comparable (except for the rock climbing), but for something in the city, maybe the santa monica mountains national recreation area partly within the city of los angeles is more comparable. and not a lot of places have that in the city, but in seoul you just take the subway and walk on up.
Unlike Korean parks, it is not made mostly of concrete, and has actual trees that are more than three feet tall.
come on. that’s a really unfair characterization. this does not describe any of the mountainous areas within seoul (namsan, kwanaksan, achasan, the mountain behind yonsei, tobongsan, puk’ansan, etc.), nor the palaces or stuff like that.
but i do wish they would stop debranching the trees that do exist along city streets. what’s up with that?
It has views of the bay and the Golden Gate Bridge, instead of views of freeway ramps,
psst… the golden gate bridge is the 101 freeway. the bridge, by the way, was criticized initially since people thought it would ruin the view of the bay. or so the story goes.
It was also not designated as a ?€œpark?€? solely because it was a former landfill, on top of a mountain, or otherwise unsuitable for commercial development.
again, that doesn’t describe tobongsan, kwanaksan, namsan, and at least a dozen other such areas within the city of seoul.
I am less sanguine that people actually see the need for things like parks, trees, and cultural facilities rather than more and more parking lots, freeways, and concrete, which is why I hope Songdo succeeds.
i really think you need to look around a little more. there’s a very, very, very long way to go, but things are getting better much more rapidly than you may realize.
One thing I wonder about in Songdo is if apartment complexes will insist that every housing unit come with a free parking space by law. This subsidizes the auto industry, encourages people to drive more,
i think such a restriction (actually, an exemption in the law, if i’m correct) would ensure that the place wouldn’t work. getting people out of their cars will require incentives or rewards to go by foot or public transport, not punishment for using a car. besides, korea has a lot of people who are weekend drivers, leaving the car alone during the week and then taking off for the countryside on the weekends (there are frequent advertisements for car products designed to take care of your car if you drive it like that). eliminating the parking space per family rule would be a disincentive for people to live there.
and isolates buildings behind giant ugly parking lots. Overemphasis on parking has played a major part in screwing up the built environment here.
are you not aware that much or most of the parking at these new apartment and business complexes (and smaller buildings) is underground? it’s the older buildings and older neighborhoods where it’s a huge problem, not the new places. (but increased traffic volume is a problem around the new places).
dan schmeltzer wrote:
Why build this ugly planned city when the government money could be spent doing a thousand things to make Seoul nicer?
Pretty bizarre priorities, if you ask me.
first, seoul is putting a lot of money into fixing up the city, thanks to the current mayor’s zeal for such things.
second, the songdo city project is inch’??n’s baby, not seoul’s. inch’??n has no interest in giving its reclaimed land (not landfill) and tax incentives, etc., to seoul for seoul to make itself look better.
this is competition to make a more livable place, and that competition will make seoul and other cities work harder to put in more park space, open areas, cultural facilities, etc. (see, i am a republican!)
Dan, good idea but isn’t Songdo is part of a nation-wide plan to imrpove regional economies making Songdu and Incheon a specialized area different from Seoul? The government feels (and this is a whole nother debate) that incoming FDI is going to jumpstart a slowing economy. Songdu is part of the Incheon Free Economic Zone so the government is spending money not to make Seoul better, but to make the rest of the country better for Koreans NOT living in Seoul by creating more jobs via foreign companies and all that comes with them.
If you’ve traveled other parts of Korea, you will notice that outside of Seoul, the rest of the country is still developing as regional economies are struggling. Incheon is one of three such regions in Korea that the government views as being able to achieve that goal because of various strategic qualities, namely the airport.
One thing to note: yes, projects such as Songdu are designed with foreigners in mind and whatever people’s opinions are about Korea’s openness toward foreigners, let’s give such projects a chance because it is a sign that effort is being made, right? You can’t blame the country for at least trying. It’s better than not trying, don’t you think?
But what many people seem to forget is that the overall concept of Songdu and other related projects is that they are being done to improve the lives of Koreans by jumpstarting regional economies which are currently experiencing hard times. Yes, foreigners’ and their needs are important and seem to be taken into consideration (or at least an effort is being made), but such things are also being done for the rest of Korea, namely everywhere BUT Seoul and that being Koreans, not foreigners.
nathaniel wrote:
For all of you commenting on the lack of greenary within Seoul I think you are mistaken. I have lived in Tokyo and other then a few large parks there, Seoul has more parks especially as you go to the outskirts of both cities.
that might be true, but seoul still needs to work harder to put in more small neighborhood parks with trees and grass and places to sit down and just read a book. i think they are trying to do that, so i won’t criticize the mayor’s effort, but the big parks aren’t enough.
it’s times of the year like this when i realize how much greenery the city really has. the city has been brown since fall, with only occasional snow cover to mask it, but then sometime in april it explodes into color and it stays green for the next five or six months. at least where i live.
As to Soul not being pedestrian friendly, I have never owned a car in my life, I walk everywhere, Seoul isn?€™t bad. Yeah the overpasses and undeground walk ways suck, but the more cross walks you put in the more traffic you create. Nothing is more pedestrian unfriendly then a bunch of cars idealing spewing exhaust.
well, the government needs to do something serious about getting the scooters and the motorcycles off the sidewalks.
but the mayor has been setting as one of his priorities to allow pedestrian traffic to safely flow above ground, crossing major intersections with crosswalks rather than being forced into ?§€????³´???. although the ?§€????³´??? are nice in the winter and when it rains… that is also a factor for making this a walkable city.
Well, Mok-dong was another planned environment - it was platted to afford people with a little more space and greenery. How successful those efforts were is a matter of personal opinion.
I agree with Nora that apartments are generally improving in quality and design. For some people, however, the high-rise condo design itself is a failure. These people remember the social failure of large-scale apartment blocks in the UK and France, or some parts of the US, and view the complexes in Seoul similarly. But, what makes them work here is that Korean are socially different, and do not feel the stesses that non-Koreans do in these buildings.
Problem is, Songdo New Town is being hyped as a place for non-Koreans, and so developers should consider these views when designing its real estate. I don’t mean that Sondo’s a ‘getto’, but if it’s really supposed to cater to the needs of non-Koreans, then that should take the form of relavant changes in urban planning. Parks are great, but home is where the heart is.
“I *really* hate the underground passageways. I?€™m sure you?€™ve all experienced random popping up above ground only to realize you?€™ve surfaced on the wrong side of the street. Infuriating.”
Weren’t they also designed with North Korean artillary in mind?
You may hate them now, but don’t forget Seoul has been in the range of North Korean guns for over 50 years.
Nora, it is a fact that most of Seoul has a high level of fine dust particles (way over the recommended allowable levels of safety in the US) and even though I’ve been to all of the places you’ve mentioned, there is still a great lack of greenspace in Seoul. I’ve watched much greenspace disappear at the hands of small builders in my neighborhood and the result is much more dust and bad air in Kwanack-gu. Though Tokyo has air problems, I would prefer hanging out in Yoyogi Park any day over what passes for a park in Seoul. The planning and maintenance at every level of government is so bad in Korea that it makes me wonder if Koreans really have any sense or pride in Korea.
If the current mayor of Seoul will really go after putting greenspace back into the heart of Seoul, it will be a great civic deed, providing that it will be maintained properly.
yeah, r. elgin, there is too much dust here, a lot of it from construction and a lot of it also from diesel exhaust. the ?™???? just adds insult to injury. i wouldn’t want to raise a child in seoul right now. things might be better when all the disel buses are phased out within two years.
” disel buses are phased out within two years.”
But then the government is dumb enough to restrictions on more disel cars. Are they on crack or something?
Sorry, that should have read:
But then the government is dumb enough to remove restrictions on more disel cars. Are they on crack or something?
yeah, that is dumb to remove restrictions on disel cars, but it’s part of cleaner disel technology from europe. i think.
“The planning and maintenance at every level of government is so bad in Korea that it makes me wonder if Koreans really have any sense or pride in Korea.” Yeah, for me that’s a weird dissociation, going on and on about some stupid rocks belonging to Korea, but completely trashing the environment. Even this Songdo business (sorry Dogbert), but it’s apparently being built in a wetland area that will harm the ecosystem there: http://www.birdskorea.org/songdoapril05.asp For all they go on about the Japanese, they are totally emulating their love of all things concrete…
how much of the songdo wetlands are being destroyed for this? there are still a lot of tidal mudflats on the way to the airport. are there any plans to ‘develop’ those?
i do agree that environmental considerations get overrun by developers and government projects, but there is an environmental movement that does an effective job (eventually) of blocking some of them, like saemangum flats and the tonggang river. i think a lot of the people making such a stink about tokto are the same lefties from where the environmental movement gets its power base. i think.
Nora, the gov’t is rolling right along with paving over the Saemangum flats. Not sure what the tipping point for destroying the wetlands might be, but certainly massive developments near there can’t be too beneficial. Also, you’re onto something about the “lefties” in the environmental movement, insofar as they are quite nationalistic. I was a little disappointed by the Green Korea folks for that reason–they made a lot more fuss about the USFK’s infamous “formaldehyde dumping incident” than they do about much more egregious pollution by Korean companies.
i thought saemangum flats was halted by court order. i guess i’m thinking of something else.
green korea has an anti-american agenda, plain and simple. but the environmentalists really came together to stop plans to build a dam at tonggang river, which would have destroyed something very beautiful.
i’m not so sure that environmentalists are that much more unsuccessful here than in a lot of other places, though. hong kong keeps storming ahead with reclamation projects. so does japan, i think. and in california they keep digging up the desert and putting tollways and housing tracts inside undeveloped coastal hillsides.
on the plus side, korea has a very effective recycling and trash reduction programs, and did so long before mandatory recycling was vogue in much of the united states. taxis are all supposed to be lpg (cleaner burning), and the government has gone a long way toward getting rid of individual coal-burning heating systems to cleaner and more efficient ‘city gas.’
i’m not saying seoul is the cleanest city in the world or anything, but it’s not like it’s a huge failure, either.
Nora wrote: the mayor of seoul is going overboard to install cultural facilities, pedestrian facilities, and adequate park space.
And don’t forget the restoration of ?²?³??²œ (Cheonggyecheon). This stream flowed through the heart of the old walled city, then was covered up by an expressway in the…what…60s or 70s? As anyone visiting downtown Seoul will notice pretty quickly, the current gov’t has removed the expressway, uncovered the stream, and is in the process of installing a much-needed linear park through the very heart of Seoul. And how about the large, grassy plaza directly in front of City Hall? Remember, it wasn’t there as recently as the World Cup. It was still a large, asphalt complex of intersections.
JK wrote: If you?€™ve traveled other parts of Korea, you will notice that outside of Seoul, the rest of the country is still developing as regional economies are struggling. Incheon is one of three such regions in Korea that the government views as being able to achieve that goal because of various strategic qualities, namely the airport.
You make good points, and it’s absolutely critical that the various levels of govenment do something to promote regional economies outside of Seoul. And Seongdo seems like an intriguing plan. But as Incheon (and indeed most of Gyeonggi Province) are basically part and parcel of the same large urban agglomeration as Seoul, I don’t think it’s quite accurate to say that Seongdo benefits outside-of-the-capital regional development. For that, we need to take the focus of Gyeonggi-do entirely and invest in places like Jeonju or Daegu.
Anyhow, regarding green space in Seoul, how come nobody mentioned the parks along the south side of the Han River? They stretch for miles, and make the river a very pleasant place indeed. And there’s the Olympic Park in the southeast of the city. As for small neighbourhood parks, I agree that it would be nice to see more of them….
Er, sorry, folded my own comment into the first blockqoute. I meant to write:
Nora wrote: the mayor of seoul is going overboard to install cultural facilities, pedestrian facilities, and adequate park space.
And don?€™t forget the restoration of ?²?³??²œ (Cheonggyecheon). This stream flowed through the heart of the old walled city, then was covered up by an expressway in the?€?what?€?60s or 70s? As anyone visiting downtown Seoul will notice pretty quickly, the current gov?€™t has removed the expressway, uncovered the stream, and is in the process of installing a much-needed linear park through the very heart of Seoul. And how about the large, grassy plaza directly in front of City Hall? Remember, it wasn?€™t there as recently as the World Cup. It was still a large, asphalt complex of intersections.
And so on….
The court order was a sort of speed bump, it didn’t demand the project be totally halted, and I don’t know what its current status is. I grew up in California, and saw the state completely ruined by development. There are always apologists for this who try to portray it as inevitable, but all I know is what was once one of the world’s most beautiful coastlines is gone forever (with the exception of a few short stretches in Monterey County and north of San Francisco). Ironically, the threat of war seems to be keeping Korea from overdevelopment on its coastline, because most of it is fenced off.
For a good example of functioning inner-city parks, Daegu has two nice inner-city parks, close to the train station (Daegu, not Dongdaegu). There’s one southwest of the station, centred on the Joseon-dynasty governor’s residence, complete with trees, fountain, and pond, that’s frequented by middle-aged and old people. There’s another one southeast of the station, near fashionable Dongseongno (Daegu’s Myeongdong) where shoppers go to take a break from the boutiques and cafes.
Okay, I don’t understand these flags in our signatures at all. Where I live was part of the joint British-US-administered Oregon Territory before 1846, but it’s been part of the land of mounties, igloos, maple syrup ever since then. Then again, Michael (is it?) seems to move at light-speed between the States and Germany, judging by his signatures on some posts….
…Unless the Oregon Treaty was revoked last night, but I think I would have seen it in the news. Hmmm, I’ll have to check.
Okay, historical hairsplitting: it was called the Oregon Country; the Oregon Territory was the post-1846 half of it south of the 49th parallel.
Okay, by now everyone has completely lost track of whatever good points I was making on parks in Korea!
sewing wrote:
Anyhow, regarding green space in Seoul, how come nobody mentioned the parks along the south side of the Han River? They stretch for miles, and make the river a very pleasant place indeed.
i did in #31: yeah, how many major cities have a national park within their borders (tobongsan). then there’s kwanaksan to the south. namsan in the middle of the city, and that long han river park.
i also mentioned ch’??nggyech’??n elsewhere.
shameless plugs-r-us. all work and no play makes nora a blogger.
oops, that shameless plug was supposed to be here.
Whoops, sorry. I think I caught “han river” and it registered in my subconscious somewhere, which is why I thought of it. I guess the lack of upper-case letters threw me off! My brain didn’t immediately think, “Ah! A proper noun!” But to each his or her own typographic preference. From the frozen land just north of where the flag in his sig would suggest,
Also, you?€™re onto something about the ?€œlefties?€? in the environmental movement, insofar as they are quite nationalistic. I was a little disappointed by the Green Korea folks for that reason?€“they made a lot more fuss about the USFK?€™s infamous ?€œformaldehyde dumping incident?€? than they do about much more egregious pollution by Korean companies.
I’m certainly not the first to say this here, but I really think there is no such thing as “left” and “right” in Korea. I, for example, would never even consider voting Republican, yet the “left” oriented people here make me squirm with discomfort.
Anyhow, regarding green space in Seoul, how come nobody mentioned the parks along the south side of the Han River? They stretch for miles, and make the river a very pleasant place indeed.
I’m going to disagree that they make the river pleasant. These parks are really just the unused shoulder off of freeways and rail lines, have only mangy trees, and lots and lots of concrete embankments. They are very difficult to access without a car, and have only a handful of dark and unsafe pedestrian entrances that are way too hard to find. Nothing like the Bund, though it bears more than a passing resemblance to the derelict waterfronts of many American cities after they built freeways next to them, with Boston being the first to actually take the freeways down.
Cheoggyecheon, however, is good news, and I’ve actually read somewhere that it’s encouraged some people in LA who want to restore the Los Angeles “river.”
P.S. here’s Wikipedia on Hong Kong:
” Despite the population density, Hong Kong is reported to be one of the greenest cities in Asia, with the majority of people living in apartments in high-rise buildings, and most land reserved for open spaces, country parks, and woodland. The vertical placement of the population explains why the general description of Hong Kong as a densely populated, green city is not an oxymoron.”
sewing wrote:
Whoops, sorry. I think I caught ?€œhan river?€? and it registered in my subconscious somewhere, which is why I thought of it. I guess the lack of upper-case letters threw me off!
hey, don’t blame me for your brain farts.
My brain didn?€™t immediately think, ?€œAh! A proper noun!?€? But to each his or her own typographic preference.
i think i’m just a fan of e.e. cummings, the only cummings worth reading.
jyc said about the han river park:
I?€™m going to disagree that they make the river pleasant. These parks are really just the unused shoulder off of freeways and rail lines, have only mangy trees, and lots and lots of concrete embankments.
i agree they could have more trees, but i think the emphasis has been on open space. part of the park near ichon is supposed to be a natural meadow, so i suppose trees will grow up there on their own soon.
They are very difficult to access without a car, and have only a handful of dark and unsafe pedestrian entrances that are way too hard to find.
this is not at all the case with the two parts i go to most often, which are ichon and yoido. both are a five- or ten-minute walk from a subway station, and the walkways to get to them are well-traveled and lit (last time i checked). and yoido’s han river park is connected to the nice walking-and-biking park carved out of yoido plaza.
Nothing like the Bund, though it bears more than a passing resemblance to the derelict waterfronts of many American cities after they built freeways next to them, with Boston being the first to actually take the freeways down.
that’s true for part of the river, but there are some wide-open spaces along other parts.
Cheoggyecheon, however, is good news, and I?€™ve actually read somewhere that it?€™s encouraged some people in LA who want to restore the Los Angeles ?€œriver.?€?
that would be really cool. the seasonal rivers and creeks of southern california (i’m looking at you, coyote creek and santa ana river) are ugly with a capital u! growing up, i we called them ‘drainage ditches.’
P.S. here?€™s Wikipedia on Hong Kong:
?€? Despite the population density, Hong Kong is reported to be one of the greenest cities in Asia, with the majority of people living in apartments in high-rise buildings, and most land reserved for open spaces, country parks, and woodland. The vertical placement of the population explains why the general description of Hong Kong as a densely populated, green city is not an oxymoron.?€?
Regarding “English speaking law enforcement” and this -
“Rather than Songdo, I think the municipal government should keep the walls up around Yongsan and only allow English speakers to live there when the Americans leave. That would be much more convenient, allow everyone access to Seoul, and let us live in a green place with our own traffic and parking laws.”
I can’t help but scratch my head. Why should people in a foreign country have to speak English? Do other countries have English only zones for the benefit of English speaking foreigners living there (as opposed to decisions by Koreans to make English only areas to force themselves to learn/practice English)? As for keeping the prime real estate that will be Yongsan (once the base is abandoned )an English only (foreign only?) area, it seems akin to developing part of NY’s Central Park and turning it into an Spanish only zone. And the idea of ‘keep[ing] the walls up’ has rather elitist connotations, if not outright colonial ones.
jk: You’ve made the mistake of assuming that I know what I’m talking about with regard to Korea and architecture.
As a layman, I take a look at that rendering of Songdo and it looks like a familiar dystopia. There are lots of places like that in the US. Here in the Washington area, that picture reminds me of Crystal City, a black hole for the soul.
I’ve never known a pleasing city that is so heavily planned, because among other things, the way we live changes from time to time. The way businesses operate changes pretty regularly too — at least in these parts. Given these opinions, if I were king for a day, I would tend to work with what I have with the resources I have, rather than build something that is so straightjacketed right out of the gate.
Wow, the Crystal City underground complex is really is a modern-day pit I had forgotten about. It is very uninviting indeed.
i’m completely unfamiliar with the washington area. what is crystal city and what is wrong with it?
much of housing in korea is unnecessarily lacking in open spaces and aesthetically unappealing. if songdo city or some other development offers aesthetically appealing and open green spaces and walkways, plus all the convenience (and more) of living within Seoul, plus access to what Songdo is missing (by subway), then people will flock there.
but a wonderfully aesthetically appealing place near an established modern city in the united states would have far less appeal, and thus far less success.
i guess what i’m saying is that something that might fail in north america or europe might succeed in korea and some other places in east asia. that doesn’t mean that koreans and non-koreans are so different they don’t think the same way… none of that appeal to the inscrutable oriental arechetype… just that circumstances are different here. i wouldn’t want to live in such a place in california, but if they have an english-language school for my (as yet unborn and unplanned) child, i’m in! if they’ve got a coffee bean tea leaf in my building and a taco bell nearby, i’m in! if i can take a water taxi to work, i’m in! it’s just a different place and different incentives will appeal.
High-rise condo complexes are successful in Korea, but haven’t always been elsewhere. Individual responses to stressors are of course variable, but it’s realistic to say that cultural responses differ as well, and this type of design hasn’t faired well in Europe or the US because those people have been acculturated to accept certain types of stress, but not others.
Since the development is intended for non-Koreans, it’s reasonable to consider all their views, not just the ones that fit in with a developer’s budget. Most non-Koreans tend to reside here for only 1-2 years. Those folks want the comforts of their home culture, but usually make only small adjustments to Korean life, or don’t adjust at all.
In other words, they’ll live in those buildings, but some won’t like them especially, even if some of us would. I saw that townhouses are also being planned for Songdo, and this might be one reason why.
Another problem I have with Songdo and its ilk is that I don’t see it as a legitimate attempt to solve a problem as much as more real estate speculation and building graft. Again, the money going into Songdo could have been put into Seoul and the surrounding area, to much greater effect.
I would give up all the Songdos and FEZs in Korea is we could get some garbage collection, decent buses and a general higher level of maintainence. As impressive as a lot of these big projects (Chungcheon, etc.) are, I think Korea really needs to spend some time on the small things… Attention to detail is desperately needed here.
Again, the money going into Songdo could have been put into Seoul and the surrounding area, to much greater effect.
I think while this is true, resistance to change and NIMBYism in already built up areas might make this impossible. It’s no different from suburban North America, where zoning regulations make it very difficult, and often actually illegal, to build anything except more subdivisions, outlet malls, office parks, and Taco Bells. Building on some no man’s land might work as a proof of concept that could spread outside Songdo.
I failed to notice any barber’s poles in the illustrations. We can’t have a new city in Korea without at least four per block now, can we?
bulgasari: Regarding English speaking environments–I agree with you but here’s why English-speaking law enforcement, etc. is necessary for something like Songdu. No multi-million dollar foreign company is going to stick its employees in an area that can’t serve their needs and being that Songdu is a Free Economic Zone that has been designed to attract incoming FDI, businesses are going to put the needs of their employees first and foremost before establishing themselves in a new area. That means having English speaking cops, etc. Providing an English-speaking environment is just one way to entice more businesses to come (or so the thinking goes).
Based on surveys Korea has done with foreign companies and employees in regards to how they designed these FEZs, foreigner CEOs said they were less concerned about tax breaks, etc. and more concerned about the living environement (English-speaking schools, hospitals, law enforcement, etc.) for their employees.
Songdo being what it is, it’s important that the govermment listens to foreigners’ POV in this respect or else it has no chance of being a success.
every year seoul has a meeting with foreign residents and asks for suggestions
every year the foreigners say the same things, have more signs in english, more parks, pick up the garbage, teach Koreans how to drive, etc
every year nothing is changed
hub of asia
Could there be any more signs in English?! Sheesh.
The ever-present signs in English are the biggest reason half the English speakers I know here never feel a need to learn Korean.
You mean signs like “Sand Presso”? (Translation: sandwich and expresso) Or how about the Chongno district office’s english motto: “Hopefully to 21C with Chongno”? Or traffic signs that say things like “Shinchon Rot”? (Translation: Shinchon Rotary)Sure, there’s lots of signs in englishee in Korea…
do they really write ‘chongno’ in ??…?¡œ and not ‘jongno’?
um… anyway, korea does have a lot of romanized signs and stuff. i can’t see how someone who could not read hangul would have difficulty getting around, unless intra-city bus service were required.
Shit, dogbert, that there is finance for New Songdo City is no surprise at all. With sovereign guarantees and fat fees, I would imagine that the investment wankers fell all over themselves to get a place at the trough.
I can state the following with 100% certainty:
There is absolutely no sovereign guarantee for this financing, Brendon.
The fees are not at all fat, especially in comparison with similarly-sized fundings.
Anyone been here long enough to remember the “Dog Rib Moon” Independence Gate signs?
Yeah, there’s lots of English signs in Seoul. Fat lot of good they do. Yer lucky if half the English signs you come across each day convey anything of value.
My personal favorite is “Hi Seoul”, but it’s really hard to choose, epseically when the Romanization changes from block to block.
Chong-no, Chong-ro, Chongno, Chongro, Jong-ro, Jong-no, Jonro, Jongno, Jong-roh, Jong-noh, Chongroh, Jongroh……Are these all the same location?
C’mon, Mayor Yi, make up yer mind.
And yeah, whatever happened to “Cool Piss” and “2% Human Water”?
Calpis Water is, I think, Japanese in origin, though maybe it’s from Lotte.
Since the development is intended for non-Koreans, it?€™s reasonable to consider all their views, not just the ones that fit in with a developer?€™s budget.
This is not actually true. The development is actually intended for Koreans as well, which is why you see it advertised in Korean on Korean television and why also the bunyang marketing effort is directed to Koreans also.
Seen on a menu in a Kangnam restaurant:
Beverages
Cock Lg. Sm. Diet
I chose water.
Ch’eonggye Ch’eon, like the area known as Mok-dong can be classified as a successful environmental project. I have heard from Koreans that grew up in the area that Mok-dong used to be a foul smelling place with factories and landfill that now is a desireable place to live. The Ch’eonggye Ch’eon has fish in it other than the sewer trout of the finless brown variety that used to be its only wildlife-you still can’t eat the fish but people do catch them for fun I am told. As for the amount of greenery in Seoul and its liveability-in some ways it is very livelable. I can walk or take public transit to almost any area of the city very comfortably (at least reasonably so even if it requires a little pushing and shoving on my part but when in Rome…). The parks that do exist and they do exist are for the most part jokes because they are not maintianed leading to safety hazzards (playgrounds where the chains that hang the swings are rusted through, wooden see-saws and jungle gyms that are falling apart from dry rot, termites and just being used and not maintained-just to name a few). Nora mentioned the fact that Seoul has many national parks with in its borders and at the risk of sounding deranged, that is not something that I would brag about. Most countries, where possible, would designate an area a national park AND leave area around it as a buffer against development. Before you go and point out that even in the National Parks in the US where there are some pockets that are privately owned and developed because they were owned before the area was designated a national park and were not bought out that I did say “where possible” and that those cases are also in ethics text books as cases of questionable ethics that Republicans have typically suppported. I think what most people would like is to be able to enjoy what exists and not have to be told that everything is off limits except the sidewalk that passes through a park or to go to enjoy a park only to spend more time having to worry about safety hazzards and the fifth that exists. When I climb a mountain, I cannot understate the amount that the idiots at the top selling dried squid and ice cream and the other idiots up there smoking and yelling ‘yahoo’ detract from the beauty that exists. The rubbish they leave behind is a secondary eyesore. Aside from what Repuclicans and Koreans think, the very fact that a park exists is not the end of the commitment to livelability or urban beauty. It must be taken care up. The grass needs to be watered and cut, flowers and trees need to be planted, cared for, trimmed and groomed and repairs must be made to fences, benches and the facilities in general. On top of this, the park must be cleaned and policed to keep it a desireable place to visit. As for the underground cross walks, they are nice in that you never have to waite for a light but the overpowering smell of urine and occasional pile of feces is always a disapointment to say the least. The bums that tend to hang out there at night make things even more unattractive. As far as changing the busses to gas but encouraging people to buy diesel autos (through cheaper fuel costs and relative economy of oppperation that diesels enjoy) makes as much sense as a fat person trying to loose weight by giving up hamburgers but allowing himself to eat an unlimited amount of ice cream-the net result is more weight (or polution) not less. The CRDI (Common Rail Direct Injection) technology that comes from Europe has more to do with efficiency of opperation than it does with polution. Further reduction of sulfur from diesel fuel will also help but doesn’t solve the problem. Biodeiesel would help even more (I would think Korea would have been a fast mover to adopt) but again, not a solution. Also, why can’t we do something about the noise polution? Regardless of what fuel they use, cars, busses and trucks are still rediculously noisy. Hong Kong, San Francisco, London, Paris and Los Angeles all have much traffic that seems to be much quieter, better managed and cleaner and I can’t believe that it is because Korea doesn’t have the technology.
iceberg wrote:
Seen on a menu in a Kangnam restaurant:
Cock Lg. Sm.
me, too. at a ??¼?³???? place.