Controversy brews after more ill-advised comments, this time by President Roh and the presidential secretary for public information pertaining to “Koreans who are more pro-American than Americans” and “English-speaking Koreans” — particularly journalists and academics — misleading the U.S. as to how Koreans think (see also here and here).
If I might weigh in with a couple of comments, I should say in the president’s defense that the crux of his statement — the Koreans should promote their own national interests over that of foreign countries, including blood allies — is not entirely unreasonable. Moreover, the comments made by his PR secretary are not uncommon ones. One can hear similar remarks made about officials in the U.S. State Department, who are on occassion accused of having the interests of their areas of specialization at heart rather than those of Washington. Moreover, I could certainly understand how Cheong Wa Dae might be less than pleased with opposition lawmakers going to the Unifed States and openly bashing Korean foreign policy. Even if I happened to agree with much of the criticism made, it could leave a very bad taste in ones mouth to see a serving lawmaker bashing the foreign policy perogatives of the elected head of state in a foreign capital.
Having said that, I wonder why the critism had to be made in the manner in which it was, i.e., accusations of servile attitudes toward the United States. Criticism of Cheong Wa Dae’s politicies vis-a-vis the United States does not automatically denote pro-Washington flunkeyism. Let’s take the Foreign Minister for example. We know that there has been friction between Cheong Wa Dae and the Foreign Ministry over a number of issues, including policy toward the U.S. I’ll even grant that the Foreign Ministry has a duty to carry out the policies of the elected policy makers — if certain officials in the ministry feel they are unable to do so, they need to get the hell out of the ministry. That being said, criticism within the ministry of some of the foreign policy pronouncements made by Cheong Wa Dae — the “Northeast Asian balancer” initiative for starters — may be derived from very real concerns that said pronouncements may not be in Korea’s national interests, and that it will be left to the Foreign Ministry to pick up the pieces when things fall apart. The same goes for the press. I’ll be the first to acknowledge that some of the press attacks on President Roh concerning his handling of the Korea-U.S. alliance have not have been entirely fair, even if the president hasn’t helped matters much by stubbornly insisting that there are no major problems in the relationship. But again, does this indicate that the conservative press is composed of a bunch of pro-American flunkeyists? Some of the criticism may be made out of real concern over the future of the Korea-U.S. relationship, especially at a time when Cheong Wa Dae has yet to give a definitive explanation of its vision for the future of the alliance. Moreover, it could be said that the media itself has its own political agenda vis-a-vis the current administration, and that criticism — fair or unfair — of the president’s foreign policy decisions might be derived more from a dislike of President Roh and the people around him rather than feelings of uber-loyalty towards the United States.
NOTE: This is a continuing post. I’m about to start work, so I’ll put this up for now and add more later tonight. Feel free to comment in the meantime.
91 Comments
The medias only concern is how to sell more media. Politics is not something they care too much about. I believe they have a vested interest in claiming the President is making mistakes because people want to know why and how-those are things they can only learn by accessing the media (success media). As for the pres, I think he is trying to milk the anti Japanese sentiment that has been brewing and use it to brow-beat his critics into at least being a little less vocal. I doubt there are very many Koreans anywhere that are truly pro American. There are plenty that have opinions about the policies of the current and past administrations but that is, I think, as far as it goes. The general public would like maybe to see some aspects such as education adopted here but still I do not think that makes anyone pro-American by any stretch of the imagination. Last of all, Roh, like little Bush, has brought the criticizim on himself just by being himself. Policies like the balancer of NE Asia (why would you want to be the balancer-all that does it put yourself in the middle of two larger powers with no controll, being used by both (stood on might be better)) are just dumb.
You hit it–”Cheong Wa Dae has yet to give a definitive explanation of its vision for the future of the alliance,” and Roh just sounds like the Ultimate Ajossi with his anti-U.S. rhetoric and readiness to grovel before China. Also, as others have pointed out, time and again his pronouncemnts, however they’re spun later, are very divisive and contentious. Somebody in another comment here said he is trying to settle scores and shows resentment of the wealthy because of his own background, and this latest comment shows his disdain for those educated abroad.
I really don’t understand how you can tell people how to think. “Koreans should think like Koreans.” What the crap does that mean? Does he think everybody should have the same opinions? The more I think about it, the more this is statement scares me. It is as undemocratic, unenlightened, and unprogressive as it gets.
It is also bothering me that he is upset that others who have different opinions want to be heard. Is he upset because he can’t just state his opinion and it becomes the way of the land like the old Chosun Kings? Doesn’t he understand that he has to work to win people over to his side with good arguements? He is sounding a bit like a cry baby.
It’s not in the US’s national interest to see the Communist regime in North Korea continue to exist, and even thrive, into the indefinite future. And this is now urgently and especially true with the arrival of NorK nuclear weapons (I think they have them since they’ve admitted it openly).
This fact about the US’s perception of its own interest tends to get hidden from view from Koreans IMO, because for the vast majority of Americans — even those who are politically active, vote regularly, and take an interest in foreign policy — Korean affairs just aren’t something they pay much attention to.
The reality of the actual national interests of the two peoples (ROK and USA) is independent of the internal politics of either country. NorK nukes are bad for US and its interests in greater Asia, no matter if the US govt is Democratic or Republican. And a potential war with NorK is a bad deal for the ROK in the 21st century, no matter which party (or coalition of parties) controls the ROK government.
Haven’t the majority of ROK citizens now come to accept (explicitly or implicitly) that the DPRK will, indeed must, continue to exist into the indefinite future? Isn’t this symbolized by the free election of the last two ROK administrations, as compared to the earlier conservative ones (and compared to the situation before that, during the period of authoritarian rule in ROK)?
Didn’t the conservative ROK politicians and military generals burn with desire to end the Communist regime up north, just as much as the DPRK burned(and still burns) to end the ROK regime down south? This meant that during this earlier time period, the ROK and US national interests, as regards the future of the peninsula, were almost identical.
(Anticipating future answers here, let me say that I’m not attempting to characterize such perceptions, and changes in perceptions, as either “good” or “bad” — just as what “IS”. Reality is reality, no matter how badly anyone here may want to “spin” it).
If I’m right that the majority of ROK citizens accept the long-term existence of DPRK, and indeed want the DPRK to continue — then this means that there is now a real (and growing) split between the two countries’ perception of their own separate interests.
Again, this split is a real one, and is independent of whatever government is in power in either country. If I’m right about this “big picture”, it’s ultimately irrelevant who says what to whom.
Many (most?) ROK citizens may long for the return of a Democratic administration in Washington in 2008, in the hopes that such an administration’s policy will be the same as the second-term Bill Clinton administration. But even if President Hillary Clinton is elected in 2008, I don’t think such a policy will return. The open announcement by NorK of its nukes has changed everything.
And an American “short attention span” toward Korea will change in a hurry if there is ever an incident involving American lives.
This is in the hands of DPRK which could act at any time. I don’t think DPRK will allow ROK to be a “balancer” between the US and DPRK, especially if there is a crisis in the north and the US public’s attention is suddenly riveted on the two Koreas (in the same way it is now on Iraq).
Korean peninsula is one of the most dangerous places on earth, for the possibility of a future war. An armistice that has lasted for 52 years has lulled people in both ROK and USA into not seeing that, but it nevertheless remains true.
If US troops are gone from Korean peninsula, then the future danger to the US will be greatly lessened. This is a brutal fact and nothing can change it. If (when?) US voters come to perceive it…
roh has put the us on notice that korea will no longer be treated like some third world nation. us could resolve quite a bit of tension by simply learning how to show respect for the tenth largest economy in the world. would that be so hard?
for instance, clinton was about to attack north korea without ever consulting seoul. in other words, he contemplated startintg a war on the korean peninsula w/o ever seeing if the people who would be doing the dying would mind doing the dying.
i suppose a bit of respect is out of the question. and don’t bother with your ‘korea gotta earn respect’ line. if the us can’t respect a nation that has grown from poverty to relative wealth in just fifty years, then, it’s the us that has a problem here.
‘using anti japanese sentiment to raise popularity.’
maybe, but it’s been relatively quite in korea, wouldn’t you say? and btw, roh was given the opportunity to use such superficial sentiment courtesy of the japanese.
******
japan can do itself a favor and withdraw the permit given to this book used by ‘just .00000000000000007%’ of the people. if the authors want to publish this book, fine, but does japan have to allow it into their schools. the expat’s stock answer often times is simply to turn the tables and point out the distortions in korean history books. fair to point it out but, then, those distortions in korean history books don’t piss off entire nations, do they?
the japanese are shooting themsleves in the foot here and had better wake up and understand that their destiny is with the two countries beside it. it’s not a good idea to piss off two of the three countries that most matter to you. and just in case you say the koreans are doing the same thing, let’s remember the koreans don’t piss the japanese off because, as most of you say, they couldn’t care less.
***
‘let’s just drop a nuclear bomb on north korea just to show what we can do to the world.’ ann coulter, immensly popular demigod on the right, loved by millions and millions of american patriots.
‘koreans don’t care anything about the north koreans. don’t they know they’re starving?’ american patriot
noooolji the clueless says: “if the us can?€™t respect a nation that has grown from poverty to relative wealth in just fifty years, then, it?€™s the us that has a problem here.” Reality says: “Foreign economic assistance was essential to the country’s recovery from the Korean War in the 1950s and to economic growth in the 1960s because it saved Seoul from having to devote scarce foreign exchange to the import of food and other necessary goods, such as cement. It also freed South Korea from the burden of heavy international debts during the initial phase of growth and enabled the government to allocate credit in accordance with planning goals. From 1953 to 1974, when grant assistance dwindled to a negligible amount, the nation received some US$4 billion of grant aid. About US$3 billion was received before 1968, forming an average of 60 percent of all investment in South Korea. As Park’s policies took effect, however, the dependence on foreign grant assistance lessened. During the 1966-74 period, foreign assistance constituted about 4.5 percent of GNP and less than 20 percent of all investment. Before 1965 the United States was the largest single aid contributor, but thereafter Japan and other international sponsors played an increasingly important role.
Apart from grant assistance, other forms of aid were offered; after 1963 South Korea received foreign capital mainly in the form of loans at concessionary rates of interest. According to government sources, between 1964 and 1974 such loans averaged about 6.5 percent of all foreign borrowing. Other data suggested a much higher figure; it seemed that most loans to the government were concessional, at least through the early 1970s. International Monetary Fund (IMF) data showed that imports financed through such means as foreign export-import loans with reduced rates of interest totaled 11.6 percent of all imports from 1975 to 1979. The aid component of these loans was only a fraction of their total value.” So Korea deserves respect for accepting foreign aid and loans, and in your tiny mind this also correlates as Korea does not need to be thankful for it in any way. You are consistent at least, always a tool.
[roh has put the us on notice that korea will no longer be treated like some third world nation.]
doesn’t putting someone “on notice” require that the intended target of such notice 1) actually hears the notice and 2) cares about said notice?
[us could resolve quite a bit of tension by simply learning how to show respect for the tenth largest economy in the world. would that be so hard?]
ask yourself which side of the alliance has more to gain by the resolution of the current tension. for a clue to the answer, compare the number of editorials in the newspapers of each country which fret and worry about the tension with gloom and doom predictions about the future of the country based upon the existence of tension.
one side lives and dies by the alliance, the other could care less. you figure out which is which and what it means about who’s responsible for resolving tension.
[for instance, clinton was about to attack north korea without ever consulting seoul. in other words, he contemplated startintg a war on the korean peninsula w/o ever seeing if the people who would be doing the dying would mind doing the dying.]
just to refresh our memories, did truman consult seoul before preventing the complete annihilation of what has grown to become present-day seoul?
[if the us can?€™t respect a nation that has grown from poverty to relative wealth in just fifty years, then, it?€™s the us that has a problem here.]
as if economic development is the sole basis by which respect is earned. i can hear you now: “We’re a bonafide Asian Tiger! Bow before us and show your respect!”
[btw, roh was given the opportunity to use such superficial sentiment courtesy of the japanese.]
yes, the japanese supplied the rope. and now you’re praising roh for hanging himself with it.
[those distortions in korean history books don?€™t piss off entire nations, do they?]
ah, if only the japanese were as irrelevant and ignored like the koreans…then their distortions would be acceptable. nice argument.
[it?€™s not a good idea to piss off two of the three countries that most matter to you.]
it’s all relative to economic strength. korea and china still beg for japanese customers to keep their exporters afloat. korea has limited options due to economic dependence. japan isn’t shackled by the same restrictions, and this drives their unforgiving attitude.
the reason you hear so much bluster out of korea regarding japan is because they lack the balls to do anything but yell. screaming is the only arrow in the korean quiver, and japan knows this.
Some of the arguments presented here are interesting. The idea that SK has, in effect, accepted NK as a political entity is a tendable argument and the fact that SK provides financial aid (regardless of what it is called) means they are not following the model of Eastern Europe where communism collapsed essentially because it could no longer afford to compete with capitalism. As far as not being able to clearly define, let alone articulate the ROKs relationship with the US, that is not something that Roh has a monopoly on by any means. The US still has yet to define its policy goals toward the North, let alone effectively act towards reducing their ability to deliver trafic or other wise use WMD that most people believe they posses. Whether or not the US forces are maintained on the Korean peninsula has little bearing on their safety given the fact that NK also has missiles that could probably hit with questionable degrees of accuracy our bases on Okinawa so that argument doesn’t seem to hold water. Moving the troops home will not spare them any danger nor will it deal with the NK situation. The questions as to whether or not NK would attack Sk and whether or not SK could defend its self without US involvement and whether or not China would become involved like they did last time are questions to which there are no sure answers. It is certain, however that the carnage would be great and it would be a tragedy unparralleled this century. As for SK, they want to be superpowers just like the US but are not to that point. In order to give the impression that they can be superpowers, they want to seem as independant as possible. That doesn’t mean they want to get rid of the benefits they enjoy as a result of their relationship with the US but they want to at least seem like they are their own masters. In much the same way, they claim they need special priviledge in the WTO because their economy is less developed but also want more respect because they have a sizeable economy (never mind the fact that it is still very far behind the economy of California assuming California were its own country).
My impression of President Roh is that he is a boneheaded, thin-skinned, self-centered, shallow-thinking, two-dimensional, tactless, spur-of-the-moment, seat-of-the-pants politician whose smile, facial expression, and attitude remind me of Alfred E. Neuman and his What-me-worry? view of life.
Just because Koreans happen to agree with the US view on North Korea, instead of Roh’s view, does not mean they are pro-American.
By the way, has anyone been keeping track of the dumb comments Roh has made during his term in office? I think there may have been enough for a book, and I know there have been enough for a David Lettermen’s “Top Ten” list. Here is my latest nomination for that list:
Roh: “Koreans should think and make judgments in a way like Koreans.”
yikes, in a similar vein to this article, i just read one in the herald about how the Roh-bots (as he wishes everyone in SK were)are dead set against taking the norks to the security council and against cutting off economic aid. So at this point, what options do the americans really have? How can they put any pressure on the Norks if SK and China won’t cooperate? One thing I would love to see would be for Bush to start pulling troops out of SK by the thousands and say they’re not coming back. Considering how limited the USs options are with SK now playing on KJIs team, maybe this would be something to consider, in order to have some kind of leverage in the situation.
At this point, the Norks must realize that they can do whatever they want cause the South is going to do its best to keep the pressure off. Why should they give up their nukes? They have nothing to gain, since they’ll be continually helped out by SK and China no matter what behavior they exhibit. My opinion is that this is definitely not a promising situation for the US and therefore, a quick and graceful exit should be something to be considered.
noolji or however you spell it is a brainwashed fruit crack pot korean
10th largest economy in the world
one simple question
how did you get there????
“Considering how limited the USs options are with SK now playing on KJIs team, maybe this would be something to consider, in order to have some kind of leverage in the situation”
Roh is not playing with KJI’s team because he wants to, but because he’s a coward. He’s afraid that the NK collapse will ruin S.Korea economically and he’s trying to serve after S.Korea’s interests. People are dying in the North, it’s wrong to put S.Korea’s economic interests above the moral question. It’s wrong to put money above lives. That is my criticism of Roh’s S.Korean policy, not that he’s intentionally helping Kim Jong Il. He’s doing it unwittingly - a stooge.
nulji is an amazingly bottomless source of ignorant or useless comments — kind of like President Roh!
It struck me that many of Roh’s crew are “more pro-North Korean than the North Koreans”.
There is truth, however, to the assertion that by talking to foreign-educated Korean analysts and pundits, Western media are getting rational, well-reasoned views from people trained to a certain professional standard. But Roh and his nativist crew are emotional, anti-rational, not well-educated and far from professional.
We laugh and get good fisking material at the stubborn naivete and reactionary emotionalism of the Hankyoreh crowd, but perhaps that is what Koreans really feel?
Slim I loved your line “It struck me that many of Roh?€™s crew are ?€œmore pro-North Korean than the North Koreans?€?.” My thoughts exactly.
“Koreans should think like Koreans”. In other words Koreans should think like me (Roh). Oh what a perfect utopia it would be.
Noolji. It seems you think economic power should be equated with respect. So a bigger economy should get more respect? So it is OK for Koreans to show more respect to America and Japan because they have bigger economies? But really I do have a sincere question ( for you or any other Korean born and raised in Korea). I always hear from Koreans that America ( and a dozen other countries) does not respect or ignores Korea. What specifically do Koreans mean by that? I always hear it but I never get any specific examples.
Nonkorean…you’ve just potentially opened Noolji’s Flood Gates….
Sa Hwa Dong…I agree with you…it’s pretty shitty to put protecting (the short term) economy over the moral issue of saving North Korean lives by letting NK simply collapse in on itself.
I wouldn’t say he’s unwittingly doing it. He knows he’s doing it. As I said before though, I’ve had a lot of business men in Korea tell me that it should be that way. SKoreans are extremely proud of being #11…#10…or whatever they currently are. They don’t want to backslide…not for anything….even reunification. The politicians can’t be as blunt and just say that the way a business men can while eating Sam-gyup-sal and polishing off a few bottles of soju each. Politians have to be more subtle.
To receive respect, you must give respect.
The US poured billions of dollars into Korea over the decades.
They even took in tens of thousands of Korean orphans that Koreans didn’t want during that period, and they still do now. Even during the 1997 financial crisis, the US poured billions in the form of IMF aid that allowed S.Korea to get back on its feet.
What does the US get for this? A back stabbing betrayal. I can imagine how that is much more hurtful since it’s coming from a country that has been friends with the US for so long. Korea has received so much benefits from the US. I don’t blame the vitrol of anti-Koreanism found here in this blog and others. The negative feelings toward Korea are understandable. I only hope that Koreans soon wake up to this fact before it’s too late.
Gerry - I disagree with you most of the time, but I think your impression of Roh is pretty much spot-on.
If Korea wants respect and balance on the peninsula, it is pretty easy — ask the US to leave and take responsiblity for its own defense. Or at least increase its portion of the defense budget. Complaining that the US is unfair while cutting defense spending and contemplating reducing the manditory military service is not the best way to go.
As for Marmot - The Foreign Ministry should enact Roh’s policies or get out? Some guy who has put in 20 years or so into a respectible career should end it because of a singular loon in the Blue House? Ordinarily, I might agree, but Roh is such a terrible leader that, in this case, I think it might be better for most civil servants to try to limit his damage and wait him out until his time is done. Watch re-runs of “Yes Prime Minister” if they need ideas.
Where are the ??œ????´ versions of these articles? URLs anyone?
(As always) Nulji is widely off-base on his main “respect” point, too. (To be fair, I don’t think he lives in or even visits Korea much or follows the issues that carefully.) He mainly just speaks from a reactionary jingoistic gut, although he might be deliberately writing unsupportable crap, merely to pull the chains of “expats who don’t respect the country whose women they sleep with” — the targets of his well-known fantasy obsession.
I’ve lost count of how many speeches I’ve heard by the past several US ambassadors in Seoul, the USFK commanders and countless others, none of whom ever fail to give South Korea its due for fast economic and political progress. I have heard (and agree with) those people say that Korea should stop trying to cling to developing country status under world trade rules and be a more open economy as one of the world’s 10 biggest. That famous slip by Bush notwithstanding, these same U.S. figures also unfailingly — even excessively, given Zayitun’s non-role in Iraq — credit Roh for contributing troops to Iraq.
Few responsible or informed Americans treat South Korea as a “third world country” — even though one could argue Roh’s rhetoric increasingly seems more appropriate for a Pyongyang, Harare or Havana audience.
I reckon this bogus “respect” criterion functions a lot like the “sincerity” gauge of a USFK traffic accident apology, a moveable goalpost and a convenient tool to divert attention away from uncomfortable subjects or keep the US on the back foot.
Sorry–the above is from Derek Anderson, not Andersib. DAMNED NEW KEYBOARD.
Agreed on all points. It pains me to see how South Koreans have fallen hard for the Japanese ploy, like a clumsy bear falling into a trap that was set before it. It’s worked magnificently for Japan.
I support Roh on this one. THere are pro americans and Korean Americans KyoPo fuckheads who are the true enemy of our nation. These Korean American so disire to become true caucasian AMerican that they are even more right towarded than Bush’s Neocon and Maccarthy combined.
James said:
“The US still has yet to define its policy goals toward the North, let alone effectively act towards reducing their ability to deliver trafic or other wise use WMD that most people believe they posses. Whether or not the US forces are maintained on the Korean peninsula has little bearing on their safety given the fact that NK also has missiles that could probably hit with questionable degrees of accuracy our bases on Okinawa so that argument doesn?€™t seem to hold water. Moving the troops home will not spare them any danger nor will it deal with the NK situation.”
Couldn’t disagree more. Whether or not it’s “defined” on some piece of formal paper somewhere, the policy goals of the US are abundantly clear, if one thinks in terms of history and common sense. It’s simply that the nations of NE Asia finally finish the political and industrial modernization process begun in the late 19th century, and live and trade with each other (and the US and the rest of the world) as peaceful, democratic nations.
This can’t happen as long as Nork continues to exist as the current malevolent entity it is now. And Koreans can’t escape their destiny to be eventually reunified, particularly if they proclaim such a destiny to the rest of the world (and then act in an opposite manner).
Withdrawal of US troops gets the problem of NorK essentially off the US “plate”, and onto the ROK’s (and the PRC’s too). With US troops gone, even some lunatic faction in NorK with control of the missiles would have a hard time justifying to itself a strike on Okinawa (or any US territory), when such an action would bring US retaliation, even possibly nuclear retaliation (if the Nork attack is nuclear).
For all their intensity, NorK has yet to pose the threat to US territory that Al Queda has.
“Withdrawal of US troops gets the problem of NorK essentially off the US ?€œplate?€?, and onto the ROK?€™s (and the PRC?€™s too).”
And with that, NK would be handsomely rewarded for their bad behaviours. So the next time some terrorist state wants to spread nuclear weapons, they’ll just have to bully, bluster, and blackmail to get what they want. Because it worked before, and NK was able to cleverly kick out the Americans from Korea without firing a single shot. Good strategy.
“The negative feelings toward Korea are understandable.”
I mostly feel the same way, and really do feel sorry about whatever bad experiences some people have had here to make them so embittered, even if it makes them believe patently wacko ideas.
Sa Hwa Dong…South Korea has been rewarding them for years. I’ve tried explaining the whole school yard bully thing to so many Korean friends and how each time NK pushes SK off the swing at the playground…or says, “Give me your lunch money…” SK does.
The last time the two militaries met…in 2002, the NKoreans killed 4 or 5 South Korean sailors…yet look at how much South Korea has done for them even after that. And then finding out about KDJ’s rather large pay off to the North. It’s clear the US military doesn’t belong here anymore. It does no good for the US to stand up to NK when South Korea refuses to. It just leaves those soldiers in a very vulnerable and ultimately useless position.
slim, you’re intersting. you say i’m ignorant and then proceed to write not one but two posts to me. hmmmm….
‘the women they sleep with…’
i’ve never written a comment like that. i’ve written this:
korea bashers who marry and have children with koreans. i understand the need for you to interpret such things along lines comfortable with your own view but my focus is on you not the woman. you’re one of the biggest korean bashers here, slim. why would you marry a korean? gerry talks about his korean mother-in-law, i contemplate him in the same manner i contemplate you.
‘LOANS! LOANS! GRANTS! GRANTS!’
every country has recieved loans and grants. the western world has poured billions into the third word with scant results. korea is the exception to the rule. why? well, because they’re koreans of course. koreans are responsible for their success not you or your relatives, expat. sorry.
‘respect begets respect.’ wise sage
‘i’m soooooo special.’ expat
‘hi, we’re the bank of america and responsible for the success of bill gates. you see, we gave him his first loans!’ b of a president
‘california’s economy would be the sixth largest in the world if it were a country, larger than italy’s or canada’s.’ statistic
‘korea in good company, ain’t that right, cali asshole?’ noolji
Dae Han,
As one of those “Korean Americans KyoPo fuckheads,” go fuck yourself. Seriously. I’m an American citizen - do you really expect that my primary loyalties should _not_ be to the United States?
“So the next time some terrorist state wants to spread nuclear weapons, they?€™ll just have to bully, bluster, and blackmail to get what they want. Because it worked before, and NK was able to cleverly kick out the Americans from Korea without firing a single shot. Good strategy.”
The ardent “nationalists” in smaller countries all over the world see their own nations as equal in every way to that of the larger powers. Nuclear weapons are the ultimate expression of this.
We’re now up to 9 countries with nukes, pretty soon with Iran it’s going to be 10. At some point the upward trend is going to “break out”; the knowledge of how to make them is out there now, it’s just a matter of acquiring the precise engineering skills and the raw materials (to include the fissile material) needed. There will be more AQ Khans to assist this process IMO, for any nation with the resources to fund it.
And besides that motivation, guys like Khan see it as their holy mission to enable countries everywhere to stand up to their adversarial neighbors (and the US) with nukes. If US can have them, why can’t they? A simple argument, one that’s hard to rebut with any sort of “come let us reason together” approach …
Just how many risks is the US supposed to keep assuming in protecting its allies, as time goes on into the indefinite future? As long as the peaceful nations of the West are the only ones honoring the non-proliferation treaty, there will be no reason for the rogue states of the world to show any restraint.
Especially if they are rewarded for their proliferation with respectful deference and offer of “carrots” by the West! I can’t believe you have the effrontery to accuse me of proposing to “handsomely reward” NorK by my proposal for US troops to leave, Sa Hwa Dong. Just what do you think the ROK has been doing for the last few years since the DPRK withdrew from the NPT, expelled the IAEA inspectors and cameras, and now has openly announced its acquisition of nuclear weapons?
You can’t seem to accept that this has fundamentally changed things. It just isn’t another gradual “step-up” in the arms race, comparable to NorK acquiring more tanks, or aircraft, or targeting more conventional artillery and tactical free-flight HE rockets on Seoul, etc etc. Or even acquiring chemical and biological weapons, as these are extremely difficult to use effectively.
Not so nukes, once the extreme difficulty of acquiring them is overcome. Response of the ROK to the DPRK acquistion of them can be basically summarized as “no change to current situation” — or, even more appropriately, as “urging everyone to remain calm, while stepping up the flow of aid to the north”.
That’s not a “handsome reward” in your book? Is only the US capable of bestowing rewards? I thought all ROK citizens want to see themselves treated as equals by the US, a reasonable enough proposition but equality has to cut both ways.
Ultimate answer, as Marmot says, is for ROK and Japan to acquire their own nuclear deterrents (if they want to do so, they won’t as long as US is providing a free insurance policy and assuming the nuclear risk for them). Then — they get to decide for themselves what actions to take if they come under attack by DPRK.
If DPRK can’t be bothered to adhere to non-proliferation treaty then why should they? Maybe if all parties concerned in NE Asia (not just the the Communist ones) have their own nukes, it will improve the atmosphere.
Sort of like being in a mean saloon in the old west (good analogy since Bush is such a “cowboy” in the eyes of much of the world). As long as everyone is carrying a really big gun and knows how to use it, all the patrons will be highly motivated to maintain their best behavior
(until perhaps they get drunk, but then prohibition of liquor never was a workable proposition for the mass of US citizenry. Maybe world political leaders with nukes will be able to see the need for imposing it on themselves, though).
Somebody asked Korean URL, so this might be it: (All links are via Daum.net.)
http://news.media.daum.net/pol.....63552.html
Korean media wasn?€™t in favor of his comment either, when you could see editorials from Donga-ilbo and Moonhwa-ilbo (these are bi-partisans):
http://news.media.daum.net/pol.....81110.html
http://news.media.daum.net/edi.....66336.html
Even Moohhwa has Roh?€™s (idiotic) lists: http://news.media.daum.net/pol.....65744.html
But Roh?€™s PR secretary seemed to blame the media for misunderstanding Roh?€™s comment. PR secretary Cho Ki-Sook (BTW, I am not related to her except that we went to the same college in Korea in different times) got her Ph.D (Political Science) at Indiana University and was professor at Ewha, before she took her current job. (What did she get herself into?) According to Roh?€™s description, she should be pro-American (she admits that she is): http://news.media.daum.net/pol.....82211.html.
Even Foreign Minister Ban Ki-Moon tried to cover up for Roh?€™s ass. Apparently, Cho and Ban are smarter than Roh. What Roh needs are good writers for his speech.
Overall, nobody is happy about Roh?€™s comment.
“Ultimate answer, as Marmot says, is for ROK and Japan to acquire their own nuclear deterrents (if they want to do so, they won?€™t as long as US is providing a free insurance policy and assuming the nuclear risk for them). Then ?€” they get to decide for themselves what actions to take if they come under attack by DPRK.”
You needn’t lecture me on how S.Korea has been rewarding N.Korea under the Sunshine policy guidance. I’m well aware of that.
Your “Korea should get their own nukes” statement is true.. in theory. But the US currently opposes anymore nuclear proliferations anywhere, not in North Korea and not in South Korea. If the US is going to wash all its hands off of the nuclear crisis in Korea, then it’s only fair and makes sense that the US should not oppose S.Korea going nuclear. Then I don’t see why Japan nor Taiwan not doing the same. They have just the right just as anyone to be able to defend themselves.
What will be needed is that the US will have to do a 180 degrees turn on their nuclear proliferation position. They will now have to say certain countries can have nukes, while others can’t, instead of saying all countries shouldn’t have them.
East Asia is going through significant turmoil just now with countries, in essence, choosing sides. Japan has hitched its wagon to the US, Taiwan wagon train. China is none to pleased with Japan for doing this. This explains the huffing and puffing emanating from Beijing. South Korea is getting squeezed real hard by the Chinese and Americans over whose side she’ll be on. Roh I think is under more diplomatic pressure than any Korean president since the Korean War. I doubt that South Korea can hold off making a firm decision for much longer. There are clues about her directions though. South Korea seems to be taking the Norks side more often than not in support of Chinese foreign policy. She also seems to be pushing American-South Korean defense co-operation further apart. The way East Asia is moving, I expect South Korea has very little time before casting her lot. Visas to the US from South Korea might be nearly impossible to get this year, in case anyone cares.
Dae-Han -
“the true enemy of our nation”
Which nation? Canada? Or North Korea?
“These Korean American so disire to become true caucasian AMerican…”
cough cough racist cough cough
The point you are missing, which is the same point Roh is missing, is that a large number of people in the world, including most Americans, Canadians, and several South Koreans (you know, folks from democratic countries) beleive that people have the right, even the duty, to have their own opinions, based on their own thoughts, and not be forced or bullied or pushed into marching arm-in-arm with the government’s point of view.
But I guess that’s hard for someone in thrall with the ways of their communist brothers up north to understand.
ps - the previous sentence wasn’t about you.
pps - Tony is right.
ppss - the previous sentence was about you.
“What will be needed is that the US will have to do a 180 degrees turn on their nuclear proliferation position. They will now have to say certain countries can have nukes, while others can?€™t, instead of saying all countries shouldn?€™t have them.”
Well of course I’m speaking for myself, not for US government. But just why do you think the ROK has to wait for US permission to start making its own nukes? Did DPRK wait for PRC or Russian permission before starting their nuclear weapons program?
(An interesting question as to what PRC or USSR intelligence knew about DPRK nuclear weapons programs back in the 80’s, and whether they could have “stopped” it, or if they even wanted to).
Even if the ROK chooses not to start a major “Manhattan project” of its own immediately, why shouldn’t the ROK just go ahead and publicly announce right now that they are withdrawing from the NPT, as a result of the DPRK’s so doing? Seems fair to me.
Holy smokes, that would set the fox loose in the henhouse. Mabye even shake those glacial-paced six party talks loose like a spring thaw in the frozen Canadian north. Plus President Roh would get full marks for “not kowtowing” to the US (as he promised).
Nulji - You are no dummy, but you are certainly one of the dumbest and sloppiest debaters in cyberspace. I take extra care when writing for you so that you won’t misunderstand or twist my words — always in vain.
The only time you appear to rebut someone is when (as usual) you make up quotes for your adversary and then attempt to refute them. But even then, your inability to draw distinctions or discern apples from oranges fails you, every time. There is a huge archive of posts that show your obsession with people who marry/date/sleep with Koreans and hold critical views of some aspect of Korea. Most of these criticisms you wrongly take as hatred for Korea or Korea bashing. You have offered many (mostly knee-jerk) criticisms of the U.S., but not once has anyone here questioned whether you would/should marry an American or why.
I quite clearly and incontrovertibly demonstrated the fallacy and irrelevency of your “respect” argument. Noone who has ever spent one newspaper-reading hour in the ROK could possibly be unaware of the country’s comparative rank in the world economy, steel output, Internet connectivity, car production, tungsten processing, toothbrush use …
You seem to think that these impressive stats should let President Roh get a free pass for all his domestic and foreign buffoonery. You’re dead wrong.
But keep it up, because you will hands down win my Asia Blog Awards vote for the “Most Fiskable” poster of the young century.
DaeHan,
I am writing this not as a Kyopo, but as a true Korean patriot. Contrary to what you and Rho-Commie may be thinking, Korea is not a strong country, economically as well as militarily. On top of that, Korea is surrounded by three goons.
In a situation like this, Korea needs a protector. America has been a true protector of Korea for last fifty some years. I am not saying Americans are angels and did this out of goodness of their heart. For whatever reason, the U.S. troops protected Korean and Koreans had it so good.
However, some Koreans like yourself and Rho-Commie believe that it is time to sever ties with the U.S. And, you guys believe you are the true patriots.
Don’t you ever fall into the delusion that being anti-American is patriotic. Actually, you are helping the Chinese to take over the rest of Korean peninsula; they already own NK, you just don’t know it. Always Remember anti-Americanism is pro-Chinese-ism! You are helping the Chinese to take over SK.
What is the difference, you may ask, given that America owns SK right now as you presume(this is totally false but that is another subject)?
A lot of difference. The U.S.’s per capita income is about $30,000. That of Korea is about $18,000. China’s per capita income is about $1,000. What does it mean? It means the U.S. is a rich master who may not take much from Korea. Things will be very different once Korea belong to the Chinese. They will take, take and take Korea’s rich to their country, just like the Japanese had done while they ruled Korea.
The effect does include other things as well. Lack of personal freedom in China and NK will become norm in Korea as well. No internet. Police state. Back to 1960s.
However, I do understand why Korean communists want to set the clock back about fifty years. You guys are shocked by the “Western” influences such as internet, prostitution, divorce rate and the widening chasm of the rich and the poor.
Well, these things are happening all over the world as the world advances. Nobody can stop progress. Definitely not Korean Commies.
So either stay with the U.S. or serve Commie China. But don’t you ever believe the lie about Korea being its own master. That is a lie spread by Chinese communists. The more you believe it, the more you are helping China to take over SK.
DaeHan and Nulji- thank you both for your posts- its comments like these that help to disprove Roh’s concern that English speaking Koreans raised and educated overseas are less capable of blithering xenophopic racism and blind obedience to the party line.
Wow Marmot, you used “Moreover” 3 times in your post. Just an observation because the only time I’ve seen that word used a lot was on military performance reports.
I feel sorry for those poor guys in the foreign ministry, batting cleanup after Roh time and time again. The man (Roh) is doing a fine job of making himself look like the truly inexperienced fool that he is every time he opens his mouth.
In my view, Roh is a hero. (I’m a caucasian from europe by the way)
He is trying to make South Korea more independent from an overbearing big brother, the US, who is trying to enlist South Korea as a junior member in the anti-China containment alliance.
SK’s relations with Japan and the US are deteriorating because of an increasing divergence in views on how to deal with NK and China.
At the same time, SK’s relations with china and to a lesser extent, russia and NK, are improving. SK is also gaining national pride.
In light of these events and changes in SK’s society, Roh’s policies and comments make absolute sense. The younger generations support Roh while the conservative cold warriors who oppose him are dying off.
South Korea’s future lies in reconciliation with NK and engagement with china. When it comes to reunification, SK’s views are nearly identical to those of china and russia.
For asia in general integration is the way forward. A new cold war, promoted by neocons in the pentagon and japan, is good only for the US, while harming everyone is asia, ultimately even japan
In light of Roh’s remark’s I think I can see what he’s trying to do but the meaning gets lost in the delivery and translation. However at the root of it all, he sounds like he wants to get away from a foreign policy that is too dependant on any one nation which we all know is unusual in Korean politics. South Korea has enjoyed more than 50 years of relations both good and bad with the US and historically China has been a father nation. Even Japan had Korean advocates in the past and not to mention there were even pro-Russian supporters before the Korean war. And because of this pattern of competing foriegn dependancy, Korea, perhaps it can be argued has not really emerged on its own enough for its own sake. Maybe that’s what Roh wants to promote: a spirit of true Korean independence. So what I question is why some people think pro-unification = pro-north korea = pro-communist = anti-america. Can there be a clear balance of pure “Korean” interests for the entire penninsula ? American troops will certainly be a deterrent from North Korean aggression but would it also be a deterrent for unification as well? If anything, in an ideal world South Korea would want both safety and unification. But for Japan, China, Russia and the US, Korean unification is probably not as important as stability in the region. So I guess, this is where the dilemna arises.
Heres a simply solution, Korea for Koreans. Time for the US to leave Korea and let them make their own kimchi
mikado, you’re nearly as clueless as nooooolji. pretty fly for a white guy, tho
Did 300,000 US troops in West Germnay hinder German Reunification? The US has only 30K(plus or minus) GI’s in SOK, can so few hinder what 300K couldn’t?
The problem with so many of Korean firsters is they think the US is evil and somehow “hurts” “Korean” interests. Korea was busted after 1953, barely above eating dirt. Now Korea is one of the leading countries on the globe. Only the US gave them breathing room to do that. When their economy went to crap in the late 90’s it was the USA that bailed them out. Time in, time out, it was the US that gave them crucial aid when really needed.
Korea is deeply benighted to walk away from such a helpful partner. The US will get along just fine without SOK, I’m confident that the world will get the opportunity to see if SOK thrives and prospers without the US partnership.
Isn’t France one of the EU members who want to lift the EU arms embargo on European arms sales to PRC? An excellent business opportunity with no downside for France, as there’s certainly no danger that the French military would ever be used to oppose any military adventure by the PRC under any circumstances.
“For asia in general integration is the way forward.”
I anticipate modern French weapons technology may soon play an “integral” part in any future PRC effort to retake Taiwan. But if it’s all part of a noble worldwide effort to stop that overbearing big brother the US, any implied aspersion of French motives by me are undoubtedly the last gasps of a dying cold warrior.
The Mikado has spoken; maybe ROK better take heed. He’s got you on his list ROK!
Will, I slag on Roh all the time here, but I understand where you’re coming from, you summed up the Korean “dilemma” very well (maybe you should run the country ;)). But the problem with Roh’s (and somewhat Kim Dae-jung’s) approach to N.K. is that it looks, smells, walks and talks like appeasement, not the actions of an independent nation–more like one being bullied. Also, the overtures toward China, including military meetings and Uri Party visits, are only going to be interpreted as groveling, because S.K. consistently gives in to China on trade and other issues, and did not protest when China invaded the S.K. embassy in Beijing to get N.K. defectors. It’s just too difficult to see “independence” in any of this.
From “Changehappens”:
East Asia is going through significant turmoil just now with countries, in essence, choosing sides. Japan has hitched its wagon to the US, Taiwan wagon train. China is none to pleased with Japan for doing this. This explains the huffing and puffing emanating from Beijing. South Korea is getting squeezed real hard by the Chinese and Americans over whose side she?€™ll be on. Roh I think is under more diplomatic pressure than any Korean president since the Korean War. This is an interesting thought and I wonder what Mr. Roh would say about such. It certainly sounds right.
I also suspect that “Mikado” is more pro-Korean than most Koreans and just as myopic . . . I’m afraid that so many leftist Frenchmen have given France a foul reputation as being loons. Ah, I miss Colette too much . . .
“At the same time, SK?€™s relations with china and to a lesser extent, russia and NK, are improving. SK is also gaining national pride.” — Mikado
It is like a beautiful married woman living in the gangland. The neighborhood chums tell her that she should be independent and go out with any guy she likes. They tell her husband is too restrictive and she is wasting her time with him. She could make lots of money dating other men, they say.
As soon as she divorces her husband, she becomes a local sex toy. She is independent for sure, but being alone describe her situation better. With nobody to protect her, local boys take turns at her.
She was a fool in letting those lies go to her head. She was never a “balancer”; She was more of a local “Ho”.
R. Elgin, funny that the pro-Korean “mikado” has named himself after a Japanese emperor….
James:
“As for your argument that every country should have its own nuclear arsenal…”
Not what I said at all, I referred only to ROK and Japan. I do expect that in the coming decades many states are likely to be acquiring nukes, “if” they decide that they need to follow the example set in succession, by Israel, India, Pakistan, North Korea, and soon the big coming attraction Iran (all non-signatories or withdrawals from the 1968 NPT, except Iran isn’t yet “officially” a withdrawal).
First two of these are stable democracies, third an unstable former democracy, last two are “rogue states” who are avowed enemies of US. Hmm, no wonder the US is becoming “overbearing”; this is a disturbing trend wouldn’t you say?
Given such a trend and the animosity of the fanatics up north, it seems pointless for a stable democracy such as ROK to deny itself nukes. Soon the US may find itself facing Iranian nuclear missiles pointed at its Middle East forces and allies, in the same way that it now faces them vs NorK.
What might happen to the US defense shield over ROK if Iran and China both threaten aggressive military invasions of neighbors, simultaneously with a move by NorK against the South?
US might have to make some hard choices as to priorities; it’s possible the US might not be able to be as “overbearing” everywhere at once in this case, though evidently much of the world thinks we can do so easily (the Kuwaitis were disdainful of the US prior to 1990, but suddenly found that US “overbearing” qualities sometimes could be quite useful. Took us a while to get there though, meanwhile they had to pay a price).
But if ROK doesn’t want its own nukes, indeed if it persists in seeing the US as the “problem” (as the Mikado says they should) — so be it, let’s solve the problem by getting the US out of ROK and letting the two Koreas get on with the Mikado’s process of “integration” under benevolent Chinese guidance. I can live with that.
I can do “no nukes” just as readily as I can do “nukes for you, nukes for me, but no nukes for that rogue behind that tree”.
Side note: OK, James, I officially withdraw the “saloon” analogy. I admit I included it only because I secretly enjoy living up to the stereotype of those who see the US as a dangerous cowboy.
I know it’s wrong and I should be more diplomatic. But it’s an almost irresistable temptation, because I know that what they really want is for me to acknowledge that the US is a blundering giant, one that should spend all of its time humbly beseeching arrogant foreigners to “please like us, let us defend you, oh and here is lots of money for your corrupt bureaucracies to spend as you see fit”.
ROFLMAO.
Baduk, that was a very funny [and sadly accurate] allegory. I’ve never heard Korea’s situation expressed quite that way before, but it certainly sounds about right. I think she needs to look at the consequences carefully before hooking up with the Chinese thugs down the block.
ChangeHappens wrote:
“Did 300,000 US troops in West Germnay hinder German Reunification? The US has only 30K(plus or minus) GI?€™s in SOK, can so few hinder what 300K couldn?€™t?”
Well, you have to understand that Germany never had a major war against itself that created their division. So I would argue the “trust” factor was greater between them than what we see between the two Koreas. Remember, Korea waged a war that’s presently not technically over. And that’s pretty significant.
One could also argue that greater and longer economic dependence on the US would create greater indebtedness on Korea’s part. Not that I’m thinking S.Korea will eventually become another Guam or Puerto Rico. God forbid.
Baduk you have some valid point therefore I believe it is worth my time to rebutt your Korean patritic thought as you insisted.
I’m glad that unlike other kyopo fuckheads in this blog like that tony fuckhead at least you worry about current Korea’s situation. you and i may have different perspective but we both hope for the greatness of our fatherland.
I do agree with you that Korea is weak and Roh’s crazy future plans for Korea to become power balancer of North East Asia is something that can’t happen.
Also I agree with you and thank American people(excluding Korean AMerican fuckheads) for protecting our nation especially those American troops who fought and died in Korean War.
But because you have saved us it doesn’t mean that we have to be your slave.
I’m not an anti american i may be anti Korean American Kyopo fuckheads(?°œ??¸?°€?§€?“¤) but calling commie and anti american is just heart breaking.
Also my father and my mother voted for Lee hoi Chang(??´??Œ?°½) of Grand National Party during the last election.
My entire family votes for only #1 when comes to election unfortunately GNP now became #2.
I do hate both Kim dae Joong and Roh mu hyun and i fight with many Koreans in Naver or Dcinside’s political forum criticizing Roh for his crazy ideas and those pro Roh and anti roh like myself fight exchaning inappropriate words.
However he is still our president and when foreigners criticize our president i just don’t know why but it just pisses me off.
I don’t agree with Roh on most of his policies including that sunshine policy but i agree that there are some crazy fuck heads like that tony up there and yourself believe that Korea should be a slave of USA.
And what is up with you about USA being a master and Korea being what??? a servant wow this is exactly what roh was talking about of course you are not a Korean but there must be someone like yourself live in Korea with passport that says “republic of Korea”
You see Koreans used to be very pro american, when i was in elementary school everyone’s favorite country was US of A and NK and Kim Jung Il was the hated by everone. But since President Bush was elected United States became so arrogant that they openly claimed they are the master of Korea and we Koreans started to get pissed off at America.
You must be really naive to actually think that Roh is trying to sever ties with U.S. and become allies of China.
China is like our customer we just want to sell our cars and electronics in that huge market that is all.
But you see the problems of Americans and Kyopo like yourself is that Korea always have to listen to what United States orders us to do. No, the time has changed and China is becoming more powerful. We are not going to be allies of China of course not and Americans will always be our friends but not a master anymore. China is much more closer to us geographically than U.s. so we must maintain good realation ship with China and try not to provoke future super power. It seems like Americans try hard not to provoke Chinese and when we do the same you guys are pissed off and accusing us of being leaning to China’s side.
We may not be the balancer of powers in Asia but we can certain try to be more independent and try to protect ourselves rather than always hide behind U.S.’ umbrella. Since Korea doesn’t have any stretegical value after Cold War I don’t understand why U.S. army is not leaving Korea since it must cost billions of dolors spent to be stationed in Korea.What is keeping American troops in Korea leaving???? eventhough Roh is continue to give hints to washington that U.S. troops can leave now.I believe Korean American realation ship will improve so much when useless Amercian infantries actually leave Korean peninsula.
Somebody asked for the Korean versions of the stories. Well, here’s a whole list of stuff concerning CWD press secretary Cho Mi-sook (Ph.D, political science, Indiana University
) ’s statement:
http://newssearch.naver.com/se.....C%F7frm=mr
Here’s a Yonhap piece on President Roh’s original comment:
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=100
And here’s one by No Cut News:
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=100
Hope you find them of use.
Dae Han you are nuts. Just because someone critisizes Roh, you think they’re anti-Korean? Or that Korea is America’s slave? What the hell are you smoking?
If Roh and his cronies would act like leaders instead of children, maybe others, the US included, would listen and respond. But if he’s going to act like KJI, the best thing is for everybody to just ignore his stupidity.
And it sounds like you have a serious hate-on for kyopos. Give it a rest, please.
Neither Dae Han nor nooooolji, the two most deluded Korean trash talkers, actually live in Korea. So even though they are very dense, even they have abandoned the “fatherland” like rats off a sinking ship.
why should i debate you, slim? every post you’ve written to me starts with an insult. you don’t write those posts to debate, you write them simply to insult me. and lest you say i insult you too: my posts are responses to yours.
anti-american or anti-bush? please don’t make the mistake of thinking that bush equals america because he doesn’t. and your comment really is racist since this is the country of my birth and i can talk about it’s mishandling of korean affairs if i want to. you gonna tell me i talk about my own country in the same way many of you talk about korea? no, i don’t, and you know it.
****
‘the west follows npt while the world does not.’
the five declared nuclear states have all agreed to get rid of nuclear weapons under the npt. don’t know what the euros and the changs are doing but i know bush has ordered up some mini nukes.
seems like everyone is ignoring the treaty, paul.
***
‘i quote as accurately as i can.’ fox news reporter, noolji
Noolji, I would like to intorduce you to a woman named Nora park. I think you two would make a fine pair. She is lacking in the looks department, but when you have the soju goggles on and if you turn out the lights, she aint half shabby. I think she is also looking for a green card, so she probally will stick around for at least two years.
Are you open to this?
happy tiger, weren’t you the one telling me about how civilized you are just a whle back? it was you who chided me on slurs, wasn’t it? you seem to have fallen into the mud. this is all you’ll get:
know that i am glad that you are my fellow american.
dingles — Was that absolutely necessary?
It’s your blog — just delete it.
I should note that I as I am a Kyopo, I should get to say what I please. Its only fair that the non-koreans should get censored.
Hey snow are you stupid or something??? read my post and find any word or sentence suggesting whoever critisizes Roh is an anti Korean. No I just said when foreigners who don’t have much knowledge of Korean history and Korean American relationaship like yourself and Baduk criticizes roh somehow it just pisses me off because eventhough I also hate roh he is still our president. If i say bush is an evil stupid fucked up hitler would you feel good as an american?? even though you are a democrat?. Maybe if you are drug abusing hippie or that fatass clown Micheal Moore.
Also did you ever read Baduk’s post that openly claims America as master?? what the hell is that suggesting??? that is suggesting that Korea is a servant or maybe apprentice if i put in a good way but I stick with slave.
Thanks for the URLs, for some reason it sounds even more reactionary and illiberal in the original. I do wonder where the “English speakers are traitors” rumor originates from.
“What is keeping American troops in Korea leaving???? eventhough Roh is continue to give hints to washington that U.S. troops can leave now.I believe Korean American realation ship will improve so much when useless Amercian infantries actually leave Korean peninsula.”- DaeHan
The U.S. Forces have been withdrawing last five years. And, yes, they will be gone from the peninsula in a couple of years.
DaeHan, can’t you see the situation is EXACTLY like 1950? The U.S. troops are gone and Commies are running wild. Talks of Korean unification are in the air. Everyone is drunk with expectation of peace and harmony with North Korea.
What is different now, SK having more economic prosperity? With only ten days’ worth of ammo, how long do you think Korea can withstand NK’s all-out attack? How long?
How do the soldiers feel about fighting NK? Yes. With no U.S. assistance (you bet your jewel!), who will fight? During Korean War, SK troops just ran. It took only a week to go from 38th parallel line to Kyengsang provine. Where were the second and the third resistance lines? Troops just took off their uniform and ran. Wouldn’t some soldiers think this is one way to unite two Koreas?
The U.S. troops are leaving Korea because they do not want to get shot from behind by Korean soldiers who feel reunification is more important than the prosperity and freedom Koreans have enjoyed last fifty years.
And, do not misquote me. I did not say “America is the master and Korea the slave”. I wrote that Commies say this and I would debate the point in some other posts.
It all depends on the question whether Korea can defend itself against China, Russia or even against NK. With less than one-day worth of MLR (multiple launch rockets) and less than ten-days worth of ammo, Korea is weak, very weak. Meanwhile, just like Pres. SungMan Rhee, who trusted weak military and put entire nation under harm’s way, Pres. Rho talks loud and even wants to be a regional “balancer”.
Even street dogs would laugh.
Yes, Rho is the president of Korea. But, if I had been there in 1950 and I knew what I know now, I would have slapped Pres. Rhee. I feel the same about Pres. Rho. True patriots want to save Korea as is, safe and prosperous. You cannot respect a person who will plunge the whole country into a war and cause death of hundreds of thousands.
One of the greatest dangers to any society is that it allow it’s economic success to act as an opiate. Money has a way of inducing forgettfulness, and no matter how economically powerful a nation may become, it needs to keep up at least a modicum of historical conscientiousness not to repeat earlier mistakes. This, I think, applies to all of the major players in the Korean arena today, but I think we can see who (S. Korea, Japan, and China, primarily) have already forgotten even this lesson.
As an American, and a student of history, especially the violent sort, I am interested in the Korean world because I’ve never witnessed a country play poker the way South Korea is playing. They seem to be betting their very national existance in this game of diplomacy. Countries under threat of defeat play aggressive, play to win it all or lose it all. But SOK, hasn’t even gotten into a war, yet they are gambling with huge stakes. Why? They are making a bet that one of two alternatives guarantees their future. Do they keep the status quo with America or do they live independent of American without American troops? All the while facing a nuclear-armed foe. All the while facing a historically domineering China. All the while facing a ex-colonial Japan.
President Roh is an ambitious man to decide this question. Should he choose foolishly, he will live in a world where America cares less about the fate of SOK. Where Japan cares less. Where China is simply waiting to burp after dining on Korean companies and financial resources. Where NOK is co-opting SOK institutions of business and government. Wow! What a game to observe.
No you are wrong current situation is not exactly like 1950 but more like early 1900s in Korean we call it Gu Han Mal.
Skorea military is now powerful enough to defend ourselves from NK. War with Nk without US force will be certainly disastrous but we won’t be just crushed by NK like Korean war. I mean casuality will be catstrophe compare to having U.S. force helping us but at least we won?€™t lose.
Skorea can beat NK but problem is not NK it’s China that we can?€™t defend ourselves from powerful China that is the problem.
Also I just can’t believe you just said Rhee Sung Man our first president belived in weak military. Where do you get all this nonsense??? if you don?€™t know much about Korea?€™s history it?€™s okay because you are Korean Americans I don?€™t expect you to know this much and I?€™m certainly surprised that you know Korea?€™s history quiet well. I probably have no I?€™m sure that I have much much less knowledge about American history than you do.
But Baduk don?€™t make stuff up ok??.
Do you even know that Korea?€™s first first lady was actually American woman and Dr.Rhee went to U.S. to get help from Americans in order to lliberate Korea from Japan?€™s colonial rule. Do you even know that Rhee was probably the most pro American president among all the president we ever had until now???
Do you even see the difference between Roh and Rhee??
We had weak military because we were crap back then. SK had lesser economy than that of north and also we had no military do you know why?? Because Americans didn?€™t give us any thing except some rifle whereas NK was getting all those tanks and weapons from the Soviets.
President Yi Seung Man(Dr.Rhee) believed in strong military Baduk but what the hell is the point of believing in it when our country had no resource nor technology to have one.HE even insisted that SKorea should invade NKorea and unite Korea asked Americans to give some goddam tanks to us but U.S. turned down Rhee’s request and eventually allowing NK to invade us first. Also from 1945 to 1948 Americans controlled us under the rule of trusteeship(American occupation policy in Korea) and before Korean war Rhee Sung Man had been president for just 2 years. He was a puppet of Americans .
So it ain?€™t Rhee?€™s responsibility to have weak military when American directly controlled us for 3 years and set up puppet government of Rhee for 2years before the war.
It’s true that Skorea wasn’t prepare for the war but they never expected peace and harmony during that confusing period of our history.
But now we are prepared to defend our country if NK invade us the real problem however is U.S. invading NK Baduk. Kim Jung(it’s jung not jong) il may look fat and drunk but he isn’t stupid. He knows the consequences he weill have to face if NK invade SK.
Also SK troops ran from NK force because Americans didn’t give any weapons to us unlike soviet Union poured their tanks to NK.
Skorea during Korean war had no weapon no military(just small army formed by private organization) economy that is lesser than that of NK.
Situation is different US gave us lots of tank and now we are developing on our own.
But situation in North East Asia is more like early 1900s before we were colonized by japs. Rising militarism in Japan and deteriorating relation between two nations and China’s ambition to becom North East Asia’s super power all fits well with the situation of 1900s.
Yes we need U.S. and i don’t deny this but my qustion was simply why U.S. not leaving??? and eventhough you are insisting that U.s. will eventually leave it seems like Americans will send more high gadjet military hardware and their jets to Osan Military base. AMericans are pulling out their infantry but replacing them with Americas’ powerful air force. Why is that???
I?€™m very worried that Skorea and stupid roh is not increasing military budget eventhough China and Japan started arms race. If we caught between them and don?€™t want to get involved we must have more powerful economy and military . So I say increase the goddamn military budget 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So we can at least fuck japan and China(eventhough we can?€™t beat them) with as much damage(maximum civilian casualities) as we can so