According to OhMyNews, Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform vice chairman and master Nanjing Massacre denier Fujioka Nobukatsu said Tuesday, “In Korea, the comfort women are now regularly putting on a performance in front of the Japanese embassy. I’ve heard, however, that they aren’t really comfort women, but North Korean agents. I think this is really the case.”
Asshole. More on this later.
159 Comments
Comfort women thing never happened so he must be right, those old bitches should shut up. I can see all the replies now.
You’re telepathetic
Well, I don’t like Roh nor his antagonistic speeches, and Korea shouldn’t make such a big issue out of Japan not because Japan has done enough but because it’s counterproductive and destructive to do so. But I also can’t stand misrepresentations. This is exactly what Roh meant when he said “Japan apolgized a few times, but they keep invalidating them”. If you’re really sorry, then say so and shut up, but don’t cross your fingers and later say, “but..nya nya nya “. Time in and time again, each “apologies” followed up by remarks or strange behaviours to “invalidate” them. I suppose Japan has free speech, but in the West, idiots like this get fired and get publicly hounded out of office. In Japan, they thrive. Just look at the Tokyo Mayor.
Did this guy study the Iraqi Minister of Information or Joseph Goebbels?
Sa Hwa Dong, the West has its “idiots” like this–does the name Jorg Heider ring a bell? But they’re a sideshow, like this freak. I’m like others who post here, I don’t know why Japan can’t make a bit more effort to be conciliatory toward Korea and China–on the other hand, the way these countries scapegoat Japan to deflect from domestic failings. So maybe I’ve just answered my own question–the demands on Japan are bottomless, and they know it.
Michael,
The ex-chairman of nationalist Austrian Freedom Party, Jorg Haider, known for his criticism of Jews, has decided to completely leave the political arena. In his time, Haider caused much sensation. When his party came to power, newspapers wrote that black sheep had appeared in the EU, while the EU threatened Austria by separating it from united Europe, diplomatic isolation, and breaking-off bilateral relations. Jorg Haider was the cause for all this sensation; to be more precise, his glib tongue was the cause.
Now, can we and could we see the same indignant reactions with this guy in Japan? Nope, I don’t think so. Maybe we’ll see a headline or two before it fades into another grudge match which solidifies the belief that Japan is not really serious when they say they are sorry.
If they say they are sorry, then
a) it must mean they did something wrong.
or
b) they don’t really mean it.
Which one is it?
In another related news, Roh is in Germany. Coincidence? Think not. I bet my last dime that he’s looking towards Germany and EU to replace Japan as the major parts supplier to S.Korea. There will probably a fundalmental change in relationship between S.Korea and Japan. Roh is also looking to take S.Korea towards a more European style governance. If he is, then I just can’t agree with that move.
Sa Hwa Dong, first, the Japanese aren’t all rabid Massacre deniers, many would find this guy odious. And I’m curious what “parts” Germany and the EU can supply to replace Japan (serious question, not taking a shot at you). It will also be interesting is to see whether Roh can be coherent for once as he is in Germany and stick to his new “tougher line” against N.K., or if he’ll go off in another seemingly random direction tomorrow.
“Sa Hwa Dong, first, the Japanese aren??t all rabid Massacre deniers, many would find this guy odious.”
I never said that all Japanese are “rabid massacre deniers”. The majority of the Japanese people are apathetic at best. They’re probably just sick and tired of comfort women. The Japanese government(s) on the other hand… is another story. Why does always some Japanese government official say things that they know will cause anger across the sea? Why can’t they control their motor functions? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they’re just being honest about how they feel and can’t help blurting out their true thought process which they can’t disguise.
“And I??m curious what ?橫parts?? Germany and the EU can supply to replace Japan (serious question, not taking a shot at you).”
Beats me, all I’m saying is that, that’s what Roh is probably thinking to do. As I’ve already said, this is a folly.
“It will also be interesting is to see whether Roh can be coherent for once as he is in Germany and stick to his new ??tougher line?? against N.K., or if he??ll go off in another seemingly random direction tomorrow.”
I don’t believe anything what this guys says anymore. He talks out of his emotion, not logic.
Is anyone besides OhMyNews reporting this?
This guy is a disgrace to history and to his country, but accordingly almost no Japanese schools have adopted his shitty textbooks. A lot of Japanese might be pretty apathetic about the past, but very few would fall into the kind of “hater” category this turd belongs in. Fortunately, there are a lot of teachers, civic groups, etc in Japan who are against these morons too, and rightfully so.
There are nutbars in Japan, just like in the west. that’s democracy. The funny thing I find about Korea, is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone voicing a different opinion about dokto, the textbooks and such. In the West, there are dissenters to every issue, reasonable or otherwise, why don’t we hear this from Koreans (maybe it’s cause I cant speak or read Korean well, and that’s my fault).
I can see that any dissenters from the common line or the party line keep their heads down, but even in the US, there certainly is plenty of dissent, some reasonable and some freaky, on every issue. It sounds like Japan has some of this, too, so why not South Korea (China I can understand, as dissent will get you clamped in a cell or a work camp)?
Interesting observation snow, what I would add to that observation is, how is it that Kyopos also fall right in line with the rest of the korean team. I think Mizrov is the only Korean I have ever read that has a differnt opinion (to any great degree). Naturally other koreans are espcially angry twards him.
I also wonder why is it that when Koreans see that other nations have dissent and varous opinios about a subject, the koreans dont wonder about how people can have differnt opinions?
Korean dissent works like this.
Korean 1: japan is bad
Korean 2: Japan is very evil
Korean 3: Japan is devil, Koreans 1 2 are you japanese?
Koreans 123: JAPAN IS DEVIL, LETS EAT THE JAPANESE FLAG. THEN THE EVIL JAPANESE WILL BE SORRY.
Foreigner expat 1: Japan seems ok to me.
Foreigner expat 2: Japan did some bad things 60 years ago etc..
Foreigner expat 1: Good point, but they seem ok nowaday.
Korean 12345: JAPAN IS DEVIL. SHATTUP YOU UNQUALIFIED ENGLISH TEACHER.
ah.. i am an average innocent japanese, and i did not even know this fujioka-san. so check through the web, he is a prof. of takushoku univ.(one of ultra-right college in japan)and was a communist until his late 40’s, then turned into ultra-conservative….he is one of founder of “that” textbook which is used 0.04%in japan. but he has nothing to do with current japanese government.
as i say repeatedly, japan is a free country, anyone can express his opinion. the us has michael moor, and there is a few pro-jap professor even in ROK, isnt there?
should japs make an apology even having this kind of person in our race?
Well said Mae.
I wish Koreans would realize that in a democracy, one has the right to be as stupid as they want to be.
No Mae, the you missed the point. Why does people like that still have a job in Japan? Not only that, they get to become high ranking officials who make policies that anger the neighbors? Is it apathy or it’s because Japanese public (minus the few minority in the left), still support people like this?
Excellent comment Mae. You have an excellent point. The only thing I would add is that these textbooks that are used by less than 1% of the middle schools, aren’t they the official history books officially approved by the LDP? Isn’t that why China and the Koreas are angery, that the views in these history books reflects the views of the ruling party of Japan?
Nanjing, if you run a publishing company, you aren’t an elected official or anything like that so you can’t always get fired for saying things or printing things that other people disagree with, even if it offends some. I’ve been offended by things I’ve heard and read in Korea - some of it related to history, race, etc - and I don’t expect people to get fired. I hope this guy keeps on making an idiot of himself and sells even less books than before.
Personally, when it comes to this publishing company in Japan, I’d rather have the crazy minority out where I can see them instead of them being pushed underground. Censorship also has risks; why make these idiots out to be anything more than the fringe element they are? When the Korean government addressed the issue of Takeshima Day, that’s exactly what they did - They elevated an insignificant local Japanese prefectural government and some right-wing idiots to a higher level than they deserved instead of ignoring them.
The point about the books - one that too many people are missing - is that people - and in this case Japanese schools - have the freedom not to buy the crap this publisher produces, and can choose better books instead. Almost 100% of Japanese schools aren’t using the book - I think that the majority has spoken, even if it isn’t loud in the way a street protest is.
The only thing I would add is that these textbooks that are used by less than 1% of the middle schools…
Yet the 2001 edition became a national bestseller on the open market in all categories.
Besides that, you have the wonderful manja books, “On War” and “On Taiwan”, both glorifying the military past of Japan and calling the atrocities committed by Japan myths. These books sold a combined over 1,000,000 copies.
Saying this is confined to one nimrod is disingenuous.
Does he have his freedom of speech? Sure. And afterwards people have the freedom to soundly condemn what he says. Where are those voices?
If .0x% (who knows the exact percentage) of textbooks in Japan whitewash their wartime history… what do the rest (like 99%) of the textbooks say?? That’s not a rhetorical question either, I’m actually curious.
“…right wing nuts…”
I always find it amusing how often, and how well, this set of words work together.
I don’t deny this at all. Just see this guy for who he is: a nutcase, not as a representative of average Japanese people.
http://www.cominganarchy.com/a.....-reloaded/
[...] the merits. You will never get me to deny that Japan has its nutjobs, as recently noted by Marmot here. Yup, that guy is clearly a hea [...]
I second the “what do the rest (like 99%) of the textbooks say??” question. So, what do they say?
Obviously this Fujioka guy is a nut and yes that is what you sometimes get in a society that allows freedom of speech. You sometimes gotta take the good with the bad…this guy is the bad. And he’s not a government employee…
Plunge…is it a fact that it (the history book put out by this Fujioka) was a national best seller? I’ve never heard this before. Would it have been if the media didn’t make such a spectacle of it’s twisted take on history? Of course, we’ll never know.
Geronimo: Mostly likely, it was media driven. Unfortunately, the other books mentioned were not.
One book I haven’t finished yet is called “Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes in World War II” by Yuki Tanaka. Actually, I read parts when I first came to Korea because I was told so many bad things…this book doesn’t cover any of it up or whitewash anything…in fact it told me worse things than any Korean ever did…very specific things…Unit 731, etc.
I can’t believe this is the only book like it coming out of Japan. But I don’t know of any other specific books.
Apparently Sa Hwa Dong, the rest of the 99% textbooks seem to be slowly falling in line with the one put out by the kooks. ESNW has written a very compelling arguement here which links the textbook issue in Japan to one in the United States. The goal isn’t neccessarily to make the one questionable textbook common in all Japanese schools, it is to change the entire paradigm of the Japanese education system to fit with their political objectives. Seems like its working so far.
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050412_1.htm
Well, the truth of the matter is that a significant chunk of research concerning Imperial Japan was done and is being done by Japanese scholars. In fact, I am so impressed by the Japanese teachers who refuse to salute to the flag and sing anthems—this in complete contrast to jingo-nazi Korean Teachers Union.
It’s as if Korea is in a 30 year time lag. First the Japanese came and taught us fascism. We became eager students and practiced this to the extreme forms just as we took confucianism to the extreme. Then the Americans came, who impressed us with the “mighty” nuclear bomb, democracy, etc etc. Koreans saw how the whites treated blacks and said, “Oh geez, these ‘advanced’ Yankees really know their stuff. They MUST be correct when they say that these dark skinned fellows are just spear-chucking ignoramus.” Koreans are still using these old tethered yellowing pages of American anthropology books in their heads. Notice how Korean protestants are often far more right winged than the 700 club? Or Kim Jong Il managed to out Stalin, Stalin? I make a bold prediction that may offend many people. In 30 years time, the world may discover that there is no Global Warming. At that time, Korea will be a leader in promoting cutting Green House gases.
It’s just too bad that most people including myself included, rather not sit through reading scholarly journals that really gets nitty gritty-but rather read apologist/revisionist drivel, because, heck, I am sado-masochistic and love to jam my finger in my car door.
As a man of Korean heritage, I would like to apologize to all Japanese people for exporting SES and other noxious “musicians,” which should really be constituted as unconventional warfare, and hence should be considered illegal under the Geneva Convention.
all countries have their nutjobs and some stay very popular for a very long time. i’m from louisiana - home of david duke. david duke was formerly the grand wizard of the kkk and then he went on to hold several public offices and came within a gnat’s eyelash of becoming the governor. he wasn’t chased out of the public spotlight, rather he just slowly disappeared. but that’s one of the beauties of democracy - anyone can come forward and speak their mind and another beauty is that everyone can ignore them.
Yes, it’s true that the first edition of this right wing textbook was a best seller in Japan, but this is an entirely a result of the media attention. The public wanted to read the book for themselves and see whether the controversy had any merit to it.
Even if there were such a huge market for right-wing revisionist history books (and I don’t know how large that market is in Japan) remember that this is a MIDDLE SCHOOL textbook! It’s not remotely the sort of thing that adults normally buy.
It’s also worth pointing out that school textbooks are not normally made avaliable for sale to the public in Japan- putting this one on the market was an unusual and deliberate ploy for publicity.
Mutantfrog: Before that, you had another bestselling revisionist history book called, History Not Taught In Textbooks which came out in 1997 (Ky??kasho ga oshienai rekishi). You also then have the bestselling mangas.
I don’t know if there are any other specific to history that have been bestsellers in Japan.
Geronimo: Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes in World War II is an excellent book. I read it a few months ago, learned a lot.
Because we hear such a diversity of opinion about Korea from ex-pats on these boards. You??re dealing with a Internet message board, the views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of all Koreans. Don??t mistake yahoos on message boards with the vast majority of Koreans who are too busy to post on message boards because they working hard and making a better life for themselves. As far as the Korean reaction to Tokdo, perhaps you missed the statement of the main Korean opposition political party Keun Hye Park who stated the Koreans were overreacting and being too emotional about the issue. As far as I know she has not been lynched for expressing opinions critical of Koreans.
As far as the Tokdo issue itself I think 99% of Koreans believe that Tokdo is rightfully Korea??s. But that??s not surprising given that as far as I can tell Japan??s claim to the islands are based on their annexation of the islands shortly before Japan took control of all of Korea.
There are idiots everywhere and people like Korea??s netizens exist in the U.S. It??s mainly that Americans are apathetic about politics. Their passions are directed elsewhere. You want to see Americans acting like Korean netizens and all you have to do is check out the message boards at ESPN.com. Lots of vitriol, testosterone and partisanship in the name of the greater glory of the Red Sox, Patriots or Pistons. Same type of behavior. Just different topic.
Well said ariwrong. Plus I may add, Korea has a very high percentage of high speed internet use. You’re bound to see lot more and very vibrant internet acitivities (more than average), including both positive and negative, good and bad, all very diverse forms of opinions on everything and anything.
I applaud Park Geun Hye for taking a rational approach to these issues and pleading for calm and reasonableness. Was her approach a critism of Koreans? It sounds more like a plea to stop overreacting. That’s what I wish the vocal minority in Korea would do, just calm down, deal with this sensibly and watch who’s pulling the strings.
At the same time, I just wonder if there are any Koreans who believe the Japanese side, or who have some other whacked out take on the whole issue? If there are, I haven’t heard a peep out of any of them, though, like I said, I don’t know about in Korean.
Japan/China tensions
Previous coverage of the anti-Japan riots: April 11th and April 12th. My own thoughts: There is a clear disconnect in understanding on both sides. Many Japanese cannot understand the depth of feeling by China. Most Chinese cannot understand why Japan c…
Having now lived in Japan a few years, I think it is highly unlikely that Japan would ever return to its militaristic past. However, I would not dismiss the possibility as completely ridiculous for a couple of reasons. One, the Japanese are not the kind of folks who question authority. Although this is less and less true among younger people, a large part of the population still follow rules and order from higher ups pretty much without question. Two, the Japanese on an individual level hate I mean hate confrontation. Therefore, if you have a bully or someone that is overtly demanding, a lot of Japanese will meekly go along to avoid the embarrassment of a confrontation or incident. Therefore, if at some point in the future and under the ?橫right?? circumstances, the right wing fringe here makes a play for power it??s not at all clear to me that the majority of decent Japanese people would have the backbone to oppose them.
If you want an example of what I??m talking about here you go. Arguably, people in Japam have less ??freedom?? to talk about certain ??sensitive?? topics then Koreans have to express unpopular political views. It??s different though in Korea, it??s peer pressure and emotionalism that keep people saying the party line. In Japan, it is intimidation from certain segments of the population.
Personally I think the Koreans and Chinese are overreacting but you have to wonder how sincere Japan??s apologies are when you read about the events described below. I think it??s pretty hard to deny that Japan still has ???issues?? when it comes to dealing with its wartime past.
http://www.japanesestudies.org.....Neill.html
You should read the whole thing. A side of Japan most gaijin never see or experience. A snippet:
My wife Keiko and I host a weekly talk show on local radio in Western Tokyo ?? just before Christmas 2000 we talked briefly about a trip we had made a year earlier to Nanjing[i] in China ??? walking through the museum in Nanjing that commemorates the incident, reading the testimony of hundreds of Chinese and non-Chinese survivors, looking at countless photographs of corpses and indeed their bones, some of which lie beneath the museum site, it’s impossible to deny what happened. And we said so, adding that those who do should pay a visit there themselves.
Thirty minutes after the show was broadcast, three members of a local “political group” arrived at the studio and asked to see the management. The station director, Sato-san, said he spoke for the station and, after exchanging name cards, everyone sat down.[ii] The only member of the group who spoke was the sempai (senior member) who softly and politely explained his displeasure. The Nanjing Massacre had not been “officially announced” (koshiki happyo) by the government, so we shouldn’t have mentioned it, he said ?? Why, he wanted to know, were we going on about China? Was our radio station communist? Sato-san carefully noted these points, including the last, on a writing pad before escorting the visitors to the elevator, bowing and thanking them for their visit.
Two days later the senior station manager called a meeting. He apologized for taking our time and explained that from now on he would be very grateful if we would not discuss political issues on the radio ??? He said we would need to apologize over the air for the Nanjing comment. If we didn’t, the men and their friends would drive their gaisensha, or black sound trucks, outside our sponsors (two ramen, or Chinese noodle, restaurants, a bar, and a couple of real estate agents) and harass them until they withdrew their support. Violence was unlikely, but he couldn’t rule it out. He apologized again for asking us to apologize. He handed us a sheet of paper the station had prepared for us to read on the next show. It said that we humbly apologized for the “inappropriate comments” (futekisetsu na hyogen ) we had made the previous week.
My wife and I were stunned. Far from being angry at a crude, thuggish attempt to shut down a public discussion, the station’s management had gone along with the rightist’s suggestions and upped the ante, out-censoring the censors by requesting an end to all political discussion.
ariwrong,
Thank you. I have been telling everyone that Japan is run by Yakuza and nobody believed me. Now we have somewhat of proof.
Japan will rise up and fight China. Koreans should stay out of this coming war. But stupid SKs are joining their brothers in NK to fight on the side of China.
Wrong war. And, maybe one the wrong side as well.
Japan isn??t run by Yakuza. But they are allowed to have an influence that most gaijin never see. I find the whole thing bizarre.
Nobody is fighting anybody at least in the short term. There is too much economic interest involved among all concerned.
About Fujioka Nobukatsu..
He could be a nutjob today but may be the Japan’s prime minister someday. A nutcase in the right time can become a success story.
Look at Hitler.
baduk,
yeah, sounds nice. could be a good japanese dream example, an ex-commi ultra-right becomes a p.m.
and i heard many yakuza factions are run by kyoppo. so basically japan is run by koreans now.
He could be a nutjob today but may be the Japan???s prime minister someday. A nutcase in the right time can become a success story.
Look at Hitler.
Finally - someone mentions Hitler. I was wondering when this discussion would die out.
mae, I wouldn’t rule it out. Japanese government is full of guys like the mayor of Tokyo. He has extreme rightist views and he hates all foreigners, especially Chinese and Koreans. And he’s one of the candidates to be a PM one day. The Japanese government is full of people like that. Can you deny that the right wing and their views are slowly taking over Japan’s thought process right now? Couple that with the fact that the young Japanese don’t fully understand what their country did in the past.What will happen if some foreign policy crisis, let’s say China, arises? Rightists could sieze the moment to take Japan to a new confrontational military nation. They may not be another colonial military power like we saw pre WWII, but what will happend if they decide to go for broke and seize Tokdo/Takeshima with their navy to satisfy their nationalistic yearnings? This may not turn out like this, but all the seeds are there in place to make us wonder if that will happen.
I think the United States is making a big mistake by awaking a sleeping dog, pushing Japan to remilitarize with offensive weapons so that they can counter China and North Korea. Japan has never learned from their history, they’re set to repeat it.
I applaud Park Geun Hye for taking a rational approach to these issues and pleading for calm and reasonableness. Was her approach a critism of Koreans? It sounds more like a plea to stop overreacting. That??s what I wish the vocal minority in Korea would do, just calm down, deal with this sensibly and watch who??s pulling the strings.
Park Geun Hye’s principal claim to fame is that she is the daughter of a pretty bad guy, and she’s managed to turn that into a stellar career. I think her plea for calm is probably not all that altruistic and i would hold on the applause just yet.
As far as dissent goes on the Dokdo/Takeshima issue, you will find some modest hand wringing in a few articles questioning whether people have really overreacted and are being irrational about the issue. Korea’s political culture, however, is still woefully juvenile and hasn’t risen above the tribal level yet, you’d have to wait a long time for people here to tolerate diversity of opinion. People like to resolve disputes in the National Assembly by fistfights here.
Virtually no Koreans believe the Japanese side, and really I think few Japanese do too. I doubt that too many worry about Takeshima or care enough to go out of their way to educate their children with neo-militarist fairy tales. Territorial disputes with your neighbor, anyway, pose nothing like the moral quandry involved in assisting the US occupation of Iraq, where there has actually been some diversity of opinion here.
You want to see Americans acting like Korean netizens and all you have to do is check out the message boards at ESPN.com. Lots of vitriol, testosterone and partisanship in the name of the greater glory of the Red Sox, Patriots or Pistons. Same type of behavior. Just different topic.
A book came out a few years back that chided America for continually treating Vietnam as simply a “war” and not a country with actual people. I can’t help feeling that the white guy mujahidin on behalf of Japan, who realistically shouldn’t care that passionately about the issue, likewise treat Japan as something like their favorite football team rather than a country with actual people getting into disputes with others. Hence the vitriol and partisanship on their side.
Yonhap says Japan’s foreign minister apologized to Korea (again): “(We) repent for giving South Koreans tremendous suffering until 1945,” Nobutaka Machimura was quoted as telling a group of South Korean lawmakers. And S. Korea’s response: “Machimura’s apology is seen as part of Tokyo’s faithful efforts (to repent its past crimes), but is not sufficient,” said a Seoul government official, asking to remain anonymous. I think they’ve discovered perpetual motion….
What we are seeing in China and Korea is very similar to that of Imperial Japan just before WW2. Japanese hyper nationalism gave military a free hand.
It is China or Korea who is more likely to commit the next Pearl Harbor.
“Yonhap says Japan??s foreign minister apologized to Korea (again):”
You have to understand Asian. Its importance is form and outer appearance, not substance.
Sa Hwa Dong, I live in Seoul, I see “form and outer appearance, not substance” every day
It’s just sad that the “woefully juvenile” (as jyc aptly put it) response of the S.K. government to an issue that they themselves set off last year by issuing the Dokdo stamps has gone beyond farce and into antics that might hurt people I care about far more than Japan’s stubbornness.
I think this is a Japanese thing mre than an Asian thing. The Japanese are a real repressed people. There are alot of things about the Japanese mind that are real weird to Westerners (just like Korea). But the Japanese are usually so polite about things to your face that you don’t usually notice. Anyway they actually have terms for what Sa Hwa Dong is trying to refer to …
I suppose in this case the Koreans and Chinese feel the Japanese apologies are merely “tatemae” and not “honne.” Japanese concepts not Korean or Chinese ones …
http://www.japan-101.com/cultu....._honne.htm
Tatemae and Honne refer to one of the main facets of Japanese culture, the public persona and real feelings.
Tatemae (sometimes translated as Front) is a face that japanese shows in public. They may have a specific role due to their social status or position in the specific group (such as corporation or company). They behave as they are expected to behave in the specific situation, regardless of their personal opinions about the matter. Core of tatemae is politeness to avoid confrontation. To the westerner, this may sound dishonest.
Honne (can be translated as True Sound) refers to real feelings and opinions. It is not something one is encouraged to show in public, especially during business dealings. It is something a Japanese shows only to his closest friends (or sometimes when very drunk).
Michael, I’m not disagreeing with you on SK’s juvenile reactions. I’ve said it many times and I say it again.
But can you disagree with anything what I said about form and appearance over substance in Japan’s apology? Frankly and personally I do not care if Japan apologizes or not. On the contrary I think it would be better if they just stopped issuing such meaningless apologies without substance. Based on recent record, Japan is just going to follow that up with actions that totally contradict their apologies. It will only exasperate the climate of animosity, not help. I think it would be better if Japan just remain quiet if it really doesn’t feel it did anything wrong. Saying one thing then actually doing the complete opposite, is what drives the anger in animosity of Korea toward Japan, and give rise to nutcases in Korea. I really wish for Korea’s sake, Japan too stop playing this tiresome game.
Sa Hwa Dong, the S.K. gov’t should take the Japanese FM seriously, say we accept the apology, now let’s work together to rectify the situation, but instead you just get more hysterics. Even if the apology is “hypocritical” or “insufficient” or whatever, why not use this as an opportunity to get to the substance you’re talking about? By blowing it off, you get the sense some parts of Korean society really want this to go on and on. So I’m just saying the game playing is going both ways right now.
Thanks Ariwrong for the anecdote and link. It is very disquieting and educational at the same time.
It seems I will have to read more and consider what I thought I knew about Japan. Though there are many nice people there, the society has serious problems indeed.
That’s some neat social determinism, reducing Japanese people to “Tatemae and Honne.” It’s as bogus as saying Koreans are simply “kibun and han,” and about as insightful.
shazzam, maybe you should stop talking and replying to yourself.
Young Koreans are more like Dodo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo). They have no fears of North Korean military or the Chinese takeover of Korea. Just like those birds which had no fears about humans, these young simpletons ask “Why would NK attack us?”
Sa Hwa Dong: “They (Japan) may not be another colonial military power like we saw pre WWII, but what will happen if they decide to go for broke and seize Tokdo/Takeshima with their navy to satisfy their nationalistic yearnings?”
It’s my understanding that the islets in question are basically just rocks, with no people (?)
You should know that any island (or even a mainland location) without a sizable, sheltered harbor, or enough flat ground for an airstrip for landing fixed wing aircraft, is essentially useless for practical naval/military purposes, in terms of cost-effectiveness.
Placing any garrison there, and having to supply them logistically would have to be done by helicopter. Regular attempts to land supplies by small boat from larger ones offshore is very weather dependent. And a unit of soldiers/sailors having to stay on a small rock or isolated location, for no reason and with nothing important to do, will drive down morale; you’d have to relieve them with others frequently to keep them from going nuts.
Keeping troops in an isolated place of no importance, merely for reasons of national prestige, is an enormous burden on scarce military budgets, which are needed for the maintenance of substantial military bases that have an actual current and practical need in any national plan of self-defense.
Blustering politicians who come up with self-serving schemes such as this are soon brought back to earth IMO, after being educated by their military staffs (in democratic countires anyway).
michael,
what you say about han has hurt my kibun. i demand an apology. tell me what you’re selling so i can boycott it.
I don’t really buy the honne/tatame explanation of this either. It’s just politics, that’s how it works everywhere. Diplomats are generally expected to act politely to each others faces regardless of what they think so that they don’t start a war.
Plunge: Actually, the author of that book seems to be involved in the ‘new textbook committee’ that drafted this textbook causing all the controversy. But I very much doubt that right wing revisionist history is dominating the charts. Don’t forget that Japan has the 2nd largest publishing industry in the world, and I believe sells more books per capita than any other country. Out of 120 million people you do get a very wide range, and plenty of non-wackos do buy the wacko-books out of curiosity. I’ll try to look up some best sellers list later and see how it actually looks.
ariwrong,
It is so nice to have “our” agent in the enemy territory. And, you are so knowledgeable about Japan and Japanese society. Your writings are reinforcing many things I have heard about Japan from my mother, who was educated under the Japanese rule. She is ardent pro-Japanese, so we argue a lot.
About honne/tatame explanation, I totally agree. Even in Korea, this still has a hugh influence. Some young people marry because of tatame; their parents want them to marry. However, they may hate each other in honne. This contributes to high divorce rate in Korea; people are marrying someone they do not like!
Can I safely say that the Japanese are two-faced people? They may be polite to you out of tatame, but may hate your guts in honne? I think this may be the Japanese attitude now toward Koreans.
This tataeme/honne is somewhat shared by Koreans; I think we learned it from the Japanese even though the Chinese do have something like this as well.
I think the main thing that differentiate the Japanese from Koreans or the Chinese is their strong tendency to conform, which was pointed out the article you quoted. In place like Nanjing, there was no one who raised an objection to daily brutalities. Everybody was doing it, so everybody did. It was the norm there. The Japanese are quick to recognize an accepted behavior pattern and follow it without thinking. They are trained from birth to do this. This typical follow-the-leader behavior is very dangerous to neighboring countries when a dictor like Tojo is allowed by Hirohito to attack them. Entire Japan will follow this living-god’s will without reservation. Very dangerous people!
baduk wrote:
Your writings are reinforcing many things I have heard about Japan from my mother, who was educated under the Japanese rule. She is ardent pro-Japanese, so we argue a lot.
she was just there, but you read about it, so of course you know better.
About honne/tatame explanation, I totally agree. Even in Korea, this still has a hugh influence. Some young people marry because of tatame; their parents want them to marry. However, they may hate each other in honne. This contributes to high divorce rate in Korea; people are marrying someone they do not like!
damn japanese forcing koreans to divorce.
wow! this is like ’six degrees of kevin bacon’: how many degrees do you need to blame the japanese for things in korea. (i’m just kidding, baduk).
Can I safely say that the Japanese are two-faced people? They may be polite to you out of tatame, but may hate your guts in honne?
which would make them just like koreans. except for koreans on blogs.
I think this may be the Japanese attitude now toward Koreans.
and the atttitude of koreans when they meet japanese, thinking inside to themselves, you’re okay but i hate your people with a white-hot passion.
This tataeme/honne is somewhat shared by Koreans; I think we learned it from the Japanese even though the Chinese do have something like this as well.
oh, my god, baduk, i was kidding about blaming japan, but you actually did! couldn’t it be just possible that the japanese got it from korea centuries ago. like when those paekche people were escapting the evil shilla people?
I think the main thing that differentiate the Japanese from Koreans or the Chinese is
where they’re located on the map, and nothing else?
their strong tendency to conform, which was pointed out the article you quoted.
thank you for making my morning, baduk. lord knows that koreans never get into a herd mentality. so when my cousin called korea ‘the land of the lemmings’ he actually meant the opposite.
In place like Nanjing, there was no one who raised an objection to daily brutalities. Everybody was doing it, so everybody did.
not true. japan had some people speaking out. look at sugihara. look at the jewish ghetto the japanese set up. those might be different because we’re talking about protecting jews, not chinese, but still, there were japanese dissenters who spoke with their actions. you can’t blame everything on group-think.
It was the norm there. The Japanese are quick to recognize an accepted behavior pattern and follow it without thinking.
not at all like koreans and their emotional response to tokto.
They are trained from birth to do this. This typical follow-the-leader behavior is very dangerous to neighboring countries when a dictor like Tojo is allowed by Hirohito to attack them. Entire Japan will follow this living-god??s will without reservation. Very dangerous people!
japan? oh, i thought we were talking about north korea.
This guy should get out of Japan and come over to the US where conservative/revisionist history textbooks are cutting edge.
-s.e.
http://www.samernesto.blogspot.com
to my korean brothas…do what i do…fuck as many japanese chicks as you can…this should be easy since japanese women are known to jizz standing just hearing the word “yonsama”…all you brothas stuck in the korean military itching to get laid not getting any since the korean gov’t crackdown on the red light district need to just hop on a ship from busan during your days off…i mean really, these bukkake-loving, 2″-weener losers are no match for us. even better if you’re 1.5 or 2nd gen ko-am like me then just utter a little “engrish” see those kimonos come off in seconds, ironically this is exactly the reason why kimono was even invented in the first place…
in the meantime, i’m on my way to burn down the goddamn shinto shrine myself…i’d like to see how they treat an american citizen…it sure would be an int’l dilemma for king george his whore condi “i don’t eat” rice. everyone follow after me, “Da-Han Min-gook Man-se!” 10k Yrs Glory Baby-fuck the rising sun!
Sang, you are a TRUE K-PLAYER. My Korean friends often go to japan with Yonsama t-shirts on and tell stories of J-Women flocking to them. But dont tell all K-PLAYER homies in Korea about it. Its a secret SHHHHH. Most Koreans dont know that all the japanese women are wild and go bezerk for anything Korean because of Yonsama. So far Yonsams power (and soon all korean men) to swoon japanese hearts is a secret in Korea. My question to you is when you were nailing all those women with your Yonsama smile didnt the fact that they were 60 years old bother you?
Anyway, keep up the good work. Hey Sang, dont forget that tokdo is our land. Make sure you bring that up to the japanese women that you are pleasing with your yonsama charm.
Nora,
I agree that Koreans are “lemmings” too. However, Koreans are “substandard lemmings”, while the Japanese are “thoroughbred lemmings”^^.
People really make far, far too much of honne and tatemae (or “face” or “guanxi” for that matter), as if we have nothing at all like that at home. It veers awful close to the “inscrutable oriental” twaddle that has made a living for countless Japan and Asia commentators like, unfortunately, most of the Japan bloggers cited here.
paul h wrote:
You should know that any island (or even a mainland location) without a sizable, sheltered harbor, or enough flat ground for an airstrip for landing fixed wing aircraft, is essentially useless for practical naval/military purposes, in terms of cost-effectiveness.
Placing any garrison there, and having to supply them logistically would have to be done by helicopter. Regular attempts to land supplies by small boat from larger ones offshore is very weather dependent. And a unit of soldiers/sailors having to stay on a small rock or isolated location, for no reason and with nothing important to do, will drive down morale; you??d have to relieve them with others frequently to keep them from going nuts.
Keeping troops in an isolated place of no importance, merely for reasons of national prestige, is an enormous burden on scarce military budgets, which are needed for the maintenance of substantial military bases that have an actual current and practical need in any national plan of self-defense.
you do realize that south korea has been doing this very thing for fifty years, right?
i think, though, that given what they are taught about the nationalistic importance of tokto, their morale is kinda high. and when they’re lonely, they’ve got each other (not that that would ever happen anywhere in the rok military).
No I don’t, I thought I read here that the islets were uninhabited.
I stand corrected, though my reasoning is still “sensible”. Hell of a waste of resources, but if ROK military and government has been diverting extra resources for so long to guard against Japanese “conquest”, then it only reinforces my view that we (US) should stop subsidizing ROK ground defense against DPRK and withdraw our own ground forces.
People (and countries) always seem to be able to find the funds for what they consider really “important”, but sometimes they have to be helped to face reality, I suppose. Maybe a US withdrawal would provide a new impetus for ROK and Japan to sit down and come to some mutual agreement over Dokto, so neither has to put soldiers in a militarily pointless location while the big threat still looms from NorK.
Now don’t you ever get confused between DoDo and Dido. Totally different animal, totally different sound.
“There will be no white flag above Dokdo”.(Dido, “White flag”)
Though I am what you all call a Japanese right-winger, I find this statement totally absurd.
Funny I haven’t seen it reported in Japanese media.
Asahi or Mainichi would have had a ball.
But then, I’m curious. What is your image or definition of a comfort woman or “sex slave” as the western mainstream media like to call them?
Girls abducted or kidnapped and forced into slavery?
What if the parents of a girl sold her into prostitution?
Does a government have to compensate for permitting the operations of brothels when such practices were still the norm?
What about the hiring of kiseangs?
Must the Korean government, for example, pay compensations to the prostitutes that were rioting last year in Seoul?
If you do not hold the Korean government responsible for allowing women to provide sexual services to men, why do you think the Japanese governemnt is responsible for the same act 60 years ago?
And to any other Japanese that may be here, if the Japanese goverenment must compensate the Korean comfort women, do you think it must also make the same compensations to the Japanese comfort women, who consituted nearly 70% of the comfort women?
Please understand that I do not mean to insult Koreans or former comfort women. It’s only that I can come to my own conclusion only after understanding what the other side is claiming.
And ariwrong,
The Japanese claim to Takeshima is based both on the territorial claim made in 1905 as well as the historical records of the Edo period. (There are extensive literature available as the Japanese have traditionally been meticulous in terms of paperwork. There are also many Korean records that indicate that Takeshima was never Korean territory, but since their written in Chinese, the present Koreans can’t read them.) After the war, Korea urged the allies to include Dokto in the islands “taken by imperial Japanese conquest” of the San Francisco Treaty. To this, they received a reply in writing from the US Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs, Dean Rusk, that “Based on the information we have, the U.S. concludes that at no time in history has the Liancourt Rocks ever been a territory of Korea.” President Lee knew full well that the basis of Korean claim to the island had been found to be invalid by the allies and that the allies considered Takeshima to be Japanese territory when he invaded.
Sorry, only “dodo” I know is the extinct bird.
Perhaps a good “handle” for me, I’ve already been honored as a “chickenhawk”, though I suppose “dodo” is a step down from there. Still, “a man’s gotta know his limitations” (Dirty Harry in “Magnum Force”).
JYC: What are some of the examples of the Japan bloggers citing the ‘inscrutable East’? You’ve mentioned it a few times in this thread, but without pointing to anything in particular.
today i saw images of the anti-japanese riots that took place in china. really, is korea all that bad? i’ll bet that most japanese people in korea feel quite safe. that’s not true of the japanese in china. one woman said she feared for her safety and avoided going out. i feel sorry for the japanese there. i hope the chinese won’t hurt them. i hope the chinese can show restraint.
R-E-S-T-R-A-I-N-T
Dont worry noodles, when Korea gets a head of steam rolling, they will out do the chinese in stupidity. Do japanese feel safe. Well the govt sent out travel warning about korea. I also read that school trips have been cancled due to worry about violence.
JYC: What are some of the examples of the Japan bloggers citing the ??inscrutable East??? You??ve mentioned it a few times in this thread, but without pointing to anything in particular
I’ll write a comment on your blog when I get the chance; personal blog criticisms are probably not of great interest to people here.
Applejack:
“Does a government have to compensate for permitting the operations of brothels when such practices were still the norm?”
Japanese government’s operation of the brothels were unparalled. The women were not only dispersed everywhere in North and South East Asia, but they were also used in the front line battle fields. Many women and girls young as 13 have testified that they were forced to have sex with tens of soldiers per day, and many cruelly abused and tortured and some killed, while some committed suicide and some were killed in the battle fields. Was this a just a brothel?
“What about the hiring of kiseangs?
Must the Korean government, for example, pay compensations to the prostitutes that were rioting last year in Seoul?”
It is probably true that some comfort women may have been prostitutes but most were not. Some were forced, while some were volunteers who thought they were going to be working in factories so that they can support their poor families. Japanese imperial apologist right wing propaganda.
“If you do not hold the Korean government responsible for allowing women to provide sexual services to men, why do you think the Japanese governemnt is responsible for the same act 60 years ago?”
Personally, I view that Korean government should be responsible for allowing women to provide sexual services to men, but we are not talking about an issue of prostitution in Korea right now. The issue here is Japanese Imperialism and Japan’s refusal to accept what they have done.
“And to any other Japanese that may be here, if the Japanese goverenment must compensate the Korean comfort women, do you think it must also make the same compensations to the Japanese comfort women, who consituted nearly 70% of the comfort women?”
Yes, if any of the women were forced. As of now, I have not heard of any Japanese women who have come and said they were forced. Therefore many people presume most of the Japanese women were professional volunteered prostitutes.
I see that you are repeating the recurring theme that these comfort women were prostitutes - propaganda. You can’t explain away testimonials from many women from Korea, China, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, and even Netherlands. What did they all do, get together and conspire to make Japan look bad?
Applejack, back in 1990’s, your own government first denied, then faced with undeniable war time documents, have admitted and acknowledged that it’s true. Your government has apologized for the comfort women (although no compensation for these women). I want to ask you, why did they apologize? Was it because Japan really didn’t feel any “regret”, but just wanted to escape foreign attention and criticism? What’s your take on this?
shazzam wrote:
Answer Shazzam: Yes Geroinimo, all koreans/Kyopo think that Japan will ???invade\?? takeshima. Why else do you think that they are so freaked out. Look at what Sawangdong, Baduk, nulji and nora says. They belive it.
i would tell you to go to hell, but it would be more constructive to tell you to go back to school because…
you obviously can’t read, since just three posts above yours (#92, for those keeping score at home) i answered geronimo’s exact same question (”Nora, do you really believe??does ANYONE really believe Japan is going to break 60 years of peace with the world so they can invade Dokdo?”) with:
no, i don??t. as i have said, that idea is irrational.
To them, after years and years of takeshima songs, a litany of \???proof\?? that takeshima belongs to them, they are unable to think independently and logically about takeshima. They only respond in them most extreme ways.
shazzam, since you have proven yourself absolutely incompetent when it comes to understanding even the simplest statements i make, please stop characterizing my words with whatever anti-korean diatribe you choose at the moment and lumping me with people whose only real common thread is that they think differently from you.
let’s do this another way, just for clarity:
GERONIMO (post #89):
Nora, do you really believe???does ANYONE really believe Japan is going to break 60 years of peace with the world so they can invade Dokdo?
NORA (post #92):
no, i don??t. as i have said, that idea is irrational.
SHAZZAM (post #95):
Yes Geroinimo, all koreans/Kyopo think that Japan will ??invade\??? takeshima. Why else do you think that they are so freaked out. Look at what Sawangdong, Baduk, nulji and nora says. They belive it. To them, after years and years of takeshima songs, a litany of \??proof\??? that takeshima belongs to them, they are unable to think independently and logically about takeshima. They only respond in them most extreme ways.
so in conclusion, (a) shazzam is either illiterate or simple-minded (or both), or (b) shazzam is actually a pro-korean poster thinking he/she is doing pro-koreans a favor by bombarding kyopos and koreans with an endless barrage of stupidity in an effort to make korea bashers look stupid.
your tendency to lump all koreans and kyopos together as part of some hive mentality is so overblown, it can only be a caricature of the traits of the worst korean bashers, so (b) is right, right?
i mean, there’s just no way that a normal person could be that simplistic and silly about their attitude, right?
unless you were jilted by a kyopo woman long ago, in which case all bets are off.
[watch your step, people, the floor is wet; looks like someone's words have been dripping with sarcasm. ]
paul h. wrote:
No I don??t, I thought I read here that the islets were uninhabited.
actually i’ve heard some complaints that the western media misleads people by saying the islands are ‘uninhabited.’ while there are no traditional residences there, there are people stationed there.
I stand corrected, though my reasoning is still ?橫sensible??. Hell of a waste of resources, but if ROK military and government has been diverting extra resources for so long to guard against Japanese ??conquest??, then it only reinforces my view that we (US) should stop subsidizing ROK ground defense against DPRK and withdraw our own ground forces.
something like 1/10,000th of the number of military people are there (and they’re not even military, they’re national police, i think), and that’s grounds for pulling out u.s. troops?
People (and countries) always seem to be able to find the funds for what they consider really ??important??, but sometimes they have to be helped to face reality, I suppose. Maybe a US withdrawal would provide a new impetus for ROK and Japan to sit down and come to some mutual agreement over Dokto, so neither has to put soldiers in a militarily pointless location while the big threat still looms from NorK.
korea already has them, so what is the incentive for some mutual agreement. what would the mutual agreement be (besides sharing or divvying up fishing grounds, which has already been done but the korean side needs to do a better job of abiding by it)?
when territory you control is claimed by another country, is it a waste of resources to have armed personnel to enforce your control? is it a waste of resources to man a lighthouse on an island in the middle of the ocean?
WOW nora you are really going apeshit. But I like what you have to say. I dont see the need to freak out. I was trying to help answer a question. I guess in your mind, the exception proves the rule. Hmmm interesting logic. Korean logic.
shazzam, it’s not going apeshit. it’s pointing out the same thing in several different ways so that there is no way possible even a feeble mind such as yours won’t get it.
and no, i am not an exception that proves some rule. nor did i say so, so don’t put words in my mouth or attribute such logic to me.
by the way, i know you’re upset about what you label ‘korean logic’ (’korean’ being some vague notion springing from your animosity toward korea, and ‘logic’ being the spawn of your inability to comprehend complex sentences), but if you just find another girl, shazzam, you can get over her.
she’s gone; she got married to that salaryman from seoul national university and she’s just not thinking about you anymore. you were just an ephemeral fling as a way to get back at her parents in her mind without her parents actually knowing about it and reacting to it. now that she’s gotten that out of her system, you don’t even occupy but a few cells of gray matter in her brain. you really need to get beyond this, shazzam, for the betterment of humanity.
unless ’she’ was a ‘he,’ in which case after he realizes he’s living a lie with this daughter of a chaebol manager, he will try to come back to you for a fling. wait by the phone, shazzam, he will call. overseas dialing is only 58 won per minute now.
How much of a wasted resources is to put up a lighthouse, a flag, and a coast guard.
Well, ummm….ok…I hear you Nora…and I understand you don’t personally believe Japan is going to try to take Dokdo by force…but I’m still curious to know what percentage of the population thinks it ‘might’ happen.
More to the subject of this string…I thought I had heard in the past that Japan had actually set up a compensation fund for comfort women victims (although clearly no amount of money could make up for girls having their lives shattered). I also thought I read that the fund was to be discontinued in the near future. Does anyone know what, if any, compensation was paid to any of the women from various countries? I ask because I don’t know and because several postings have said nothing was ever paid.
Um Nora, now you are scaring me. You are starting to obsess. But it is amusing to watch you go apeshit.
Noras Korean logic: Foreinger says somthing true about korea but because he is foreigner, it is bad thing, even though its true. It must be because of jilted lover???? that sounds just like noolji. He says the same thing. Ahhhh you are different from noolji. Tht I agree. Perhaps you are fatter. Kyopo women allways seem to be fat. Just like my ex gf that left me for seoul national uni cheobal son.. bwahh hahahah..
apeshit
Since there have been several slightly off topics comments about Dokdo…here’s an article about a planned wedding on Dokdo of an actress and some famous martial arts instructor.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....810510.htm
I don’t know about you but it screams of “Publicity Stunt!” to me. It quotes the woman as saying she wanted to ‘awaken’ Japan to the fact that Koreans could have a wedding there now, but Japanese cannot. Awaken is a nice way of saying ‘rub it in’.
“They also plan to have a performance there to denounce Japan??s claim over Tokto and console victims of Japan??s wartime atrocities, wearing traditional costumes and brandishing swords.” Yes, a little sword show…I’m sure that’s going to make the victims feel better.
No it’s not a waste of resources to put up a light house, and I think that under international law it assists in establishing a claim to ownership.
A coast guard unit in such a location is not a waste either, if such a unit can put out to sea at short notice, in boats big enough to go assist mariners of all countries in trouble in the area (and/or fly helicopters on the same type of mission).
But, back to original comment by Sa Hwa Dong:
“…but what will happen if they (Japan) decide to go for broke and seize Tokdo/Takeshima with their navy to satisfy their nationalistic yearnings?”
(A bit of perhaps unintentional irony here by Sa Hwa Dong, as I just remembered that “Go for Broke” was the motto of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team (Japanese-Americans who volunteered to join the US Army in WWII determined to prove their loyalty. http://www.homeofheroes.com/mo.....442nd.html )
If ROK is determined to hang on to the islets (looks like it from where I sit, I grant you) — and it seriously believes Japan is a threat to take them away by force — then a lighthouse and a coast guard unit is not enough. The islets need to be garrisoned and fortified as much as possible, and placed on “alert” status 24 hours a day, since a sizeable Japanese force could sail (and fly, don’t forget the fight