It is always good to see that the tit-for-tat over Dokto is escalating and thus it will provide Marmot’s Hole with a lot of good material for some time. The Korea Times - which is nice enough to print my horrible articles, surprised me again with another amazing story related to Dokto.
The newest twist in this drama is that the Korean navy is considering naming their newest KDX II destroyer after a fisherman, Ahn Yong Bok, who is the pure symbol of national defense. Ahn Yong Bok, with a group of fellow Korean fishermen, forced the Japanese to admit that Ullong-do and Tokdo are Korean territory. Naturally one is forced to question this - for if he forced the Japanese to admit it in the 17th century, why are we still arguing about it?
The Korean navy is also considering having the ship stationed in the waters around Tokdo - a constant reminder to the Japanese island usurpers that Tokdo is clearly Korea’s land. Are we to assume that the Destroyer Ahn Yong Bok will pursue any stray Japanese fishermen, protesting intellectuals or lost Japanese tourists seeking the mythical island of Takeshima back to Japan and force them to acknowledge that Tokdo is Korea’s? What happens if Japan decides to name a few of their ships in a tit-for-tat response?
I started searching around the net for more information on this great man and these are some of the sites I encountered. Understand there are a great many, but every writer has a slant to his story and this is mine.
Kimsoft - while raising the cry to arms to help defend Tokdo from the Japanese, basically had this to say about our hero in 200o.
“In the 17th century, Ahn Yong Bok, a fisherman, went to Japan all by himself and risking his life to force the Japanese to accept that Dok-do belonged to Korea.”
Notice that the story of our Hero and his role has increased in Kimsoft’s version of history. Ahn did it by himself. Of course accurately protraying history might not be Kimsoft’s cup of tea, but martialist poetry does seem to be:
“Today, we stand together at the eastern edge of our territory Dok-do - in shame and anger. Our land should always welcome us, but the ice-cold winds of the East Sea surrounding Dok-do fill us with sadness and resentments.”
Still not satisfied that I had received the education that I needed on this great man - I sought the wise pages of the Joong Ahn Daily’s Herald Tribune. This is what they offered -
“In 1696, the 22nd year under King Sukjong’s reign, 16 fishermen, including An Yong-bok of Dongrae, went to Ulleungdo island. When Mr. An saw Japanese fishermen and fishing boats, he rebuked them as to why they were on Korean soil. The Japanese responded that they were residents of Takeshima and came to Ulleungdo island for fishing. They claimed that Tokto was a part of Japanese territory.”
Notice that they didn’t claim that our hero single-handedly caused the Japanese to denounce their claims on the islands. Perhaps the writer hasn’t read Kimsoft.
I noticed that there are a couple of German posters logged on, and not wanting to leave them out I also sought information for them on the web. Unfortunately it is in German - wait a second - that is what I wanted, but I won’t post the translation because our Hero is translated as Mr. Ancestor using the Yahoo translation program. Somehow that doesn’t seem fitting.
30 Comments
I bought a ??????? ????? ???! shirt. It’s great. I wonder if I can start up my own sovereign state. According to Int’l law it should be a cinch.
I’d vote myself to govern the place (the buddies I bring hopefully wouldn’t have too much of a problem with this… (can’t leave any window for a possible coup detat), the territory is well defined and well I haven’t had too many problems conducting international affairs lately.
Ha ha - what would the flag look like? Perhaps you could claim independence but as a protectorate of Korea? Maybe you could borrow the Destroyer Ahn Yong Bok
“Die Japaner landeten auf der unbewohnten Insel, f?llten B?ume und fingen Fisch. Sie behaupteten sogar, dass Ulleungdo zu ihrem Territorium geh?re und gaben der Insel den Namen Takeshima. 1693 schlie??lich f??hrte der Zusammensto?? zwischen einer Gruppe koreanischer Fischer unter Ahn Yong-bok und japanischen Fischern zu einem diplomatischen Streit um die Insel zwischen der Joseon-Dynastie und Japan. Der Streit wurde beigelegt, nachdem Ahn Yong-bok nach Japan reiste und die Best?tigung des Shogunats erhielt, dass Ulleungdo und Dokdo koreanisches Territorium seien. ”
The Japanese landed on the uninhabitated island, cutting down trees and fishing. They even claimed, that Ulleungdo belonged to their territory and named the island Takeshima. In 1693 an encounter of a group of Korean fishermen under Ahn Yong-bok with Japaense fishermen led to a diplomatic dispute between the Joseon Dynasty and Japan about the island. The controversy was settled, after Ahn Yong-bok had travelled to Japan and received an acknowledgement of the Shogunate, that Ulleungdo and Dokdo were Korean territories.”
Man, really a rough and speedy translation. The link leads to an article of a site published by the ROK embassy in Germany. It’s only in German, but interesting stuff for our Korean proficient readers. They have a section with translated German press articles about Korean matters in Hangeul.
Terrible.
This topic is getting tiresome. Tokdo is ours, no it’s Japanese, no it’s Korean, not it’s Japanese. Can we discuss something else?
Let’s talk about the URI party for a minute here. How stupid and childish they are. They’re interpeting the latest cozying up of the US and Japan (US backing of Japan in the UN security seat), as US taking the Japanese side on the Tokdo issue. According to some sources, Roh and his party are deeply offended. I just don’t know what these clut heads are thinking, surely they can’t be this dull.
The US is getting closer to Japan, not because they care about this issue at all, but Japan is putting up an blitz of support and strengthning of their alliance with the US. Korea, on the other hand, we know about Korea..
Some in the ROK are suggesting pulling the troops out of Iraq. But this will not have any kind of effect on the US because the ROK troops aren’t doing much other than sitting in the desert playing computer games. Instead, all this will do is deeply insult the US and it will be another nail in the coffin for the US-ROK alliance. Of course, the URI party and most of the Korean population will not be able to understand the implications of this rash emotional burst of decision. They’re not just willing to risk the relationship with Japan, but also with the US, over this damn island.
All I can do is throw my hands up in the air and scream “idiots!”.
PS. I’ve changed my ID to Sa Hwa Dong, used to be Kimbob.
I have several students in Song Nae (all 11 years old) who asked me about the current U.S.-Korea, U.S.-Japan relationship because their elementary school teacher (all 6 of them go to the same school) told them that America wants Japan to invade Korea again and that America wants Japan to make all of Korea a colony again. She told them that Tokto is the first move in the the American-Japanese strategy.
Needless to say, I was pretty shocked and outraged that an Elementary School teacher was putting this stuff in their young and impressionable minds. Despite my assurances that wasn’t true, they couldn’t believe their teacher was wrong. “My teacher said!”
Personally, I am hoping the final nail in the coffin for the U.S.-Korea Alliance comes sooner rather than later. There is no more need for Americans taxpayers to spend money on defending Korea and no more need for American soldiers to be in Korea. Doesn’t need to be a rude exit, but an exit all the same.
As for other topics, did anyone catch the article in the Korea Herald about the 6 women who died in the brothel fire. It said the likely cause was a cigarette from ‘a drunken prostitute’ and the reason they probably died was because they were ‘probably drunk’. Yes, blame the dead. Great bit of journalism there. Don’t ask if they were locked in like the previous fire in Gunsan. Don’t put the police in the hot spot by asking why the brothel was still operating months after the much publicized ‘crackdown’. If they hadn’t been able to blame the dead, who do you think they would have blamed first? (1) The Japanese (2) The U.S. Military (3) foreign English teachers or (4) all of the above?
how do I change the flag next to my name? I’m not Korean…don’t want to mislead anyone….I’m an Iowan. (and proud of it!)
In the meantime, our great Korean media the Chosun Ilbo prints a glowing report of China taking sides with Korea on the Tokdo fiasco. The article proudly banters out the repeated propaganda of Tokdo being a Korean territory. In their simple cut and dry black and white Korean minds, it’s Korea + China to counter the evil Japanese plans to take over Asia. As if China really cares about Tokdo (my eyes rolling). Only if that was so simple. The media as usual fails to look at this in the viewpoint of China. What must they be thinking? Let’s see..
They must be looking across and be titilated full of joy, seeing Korea going coo coo over Japan. Good, now here’s China’s opportunity to score another victory for China’s dominance in Asia. Let’s use this opportunity to counter Japan/US influence, and not only that rally the Asian public opinon to garner support for the Daiyous or known as the Sankaiku, a disputed island between China, Taiwan, and Japan. Make the evil Japs look like they’re grabbing Asia again, and come out looking like the good guys with white hats. Perfect!
The Korean media is too enamoured with China, with their newfound obsession with Tokdo, and too dense to figure this one out. I think Korea needs somekind of a massive shock to make them snap out of this raving craze. An announcement that the USFK will be pulling out, could do that.
geronimo, the flag is determined by your ip address, i think.
can’t change it to the american flag, iowa flag, or a giant corn icon.
but maybe we can get marmot to change what the line says, from geronimo from korea to geronimo inkorea.
The Dokdo Waeran is quite depressing. Most Japanese and Koreans get along quite well on a personal level… Anyway, the use of “historical evidence” to claim any “rights” on Dokdo/Takeshima is quite childish: One simlply cannot assume that there have been concepts of “national territory” in East Asia prior to the 19th century.
On the contrary, the concept of national territory has existed in Asia (and the rest of the world last time I checked) for a very long time. You may be bored with it but it is a significant issue here. The first record of “visitors” to Korea was the Wei travelers. Even to this day in Northern China there are stones that show where the border used to be with China and Korea. I think that most people that post on this site are of the opinion that Tokdo is Korean property; what they argue about is the use of tactful diplomacy (or lack thereof) by the two sides. As for the future of US/Korean relations-that is an interesting topic that would bring out many opinions to be sure. Perhaps even more charged than that is the argument that any money spent on maintaining the relationship is going down the rathole. Senor Marmot, how about hooking us up with a related article to debate?
What I can’t understand is the U.S. has an official don’t get involved in this dispute policy/stance. How can this be Pro Japanese? It is totally neutral.
This is the ultimate Korean conspiracy theory Geronimo heard. Not just Japan or just America but to have a theory with BOTH Japan and America as the bad guys is the holy grail of Korean conspiracy theories. Another reason the Ohno hate fest lasted so long (An American with Japanese blood).
I also agree that the US/Korea alliance is coming to an end. Maybe in 5 years or 30 years but Korea will go back to China one way or another. Roh and Korea will try to play China and America for awhile to get the most benefits they can from both countries but at the end of the day Korea will be back in China’s sphere of influence. Why spend resources on such a relationship?
Does anybody in the US know or give a shit about the Dokto issue? The Japanese want to strengthen the alliance and that’s why the Yanks are working with them. I highly doubt that the Bush admin is taking sides on Dokto, I haven’t heard anything credible on this.
Anyway, if the Koreans pull out of Iraq, and like someone said, it won’t make any difference, then the US should pull out an equivalent number from SK. And heck, while they’re at it, pull them all out! I’m tired of the whining and lack of gratitude for the protection, free money and lives given by the Americans for SK. Let’s hope that the time for a divorce will come sooner rather than later.
I don’t see how the US could officially comment either way on this issue, since both Japan and South Korea are US allies, ofr now at least.
As for Ahn Yon bok, records from the Tokugawa period show that he was a 36-year-old low-ranking soldier, a little over 150 cm, with a red face, slightly bearded, and no identifiable scars on his body (this infomation coming from a wooden navy ID card he had on himself.) He was captured by Japanese fishermen and taken back to Japan to prove to the Shoguante that Japanese territories were being entered unlawfully. The ensuing diplomatic dispute ends by the Tokugawa Shonugate forbidding all passage to Takeshima (Ullungdo island - the present Takeshima was called Matushima back then, and only renamed to Takeshima in 1905), a move that infuriates a scholar Koryo Aoki who scold Shogun Tsunayoshi that land is not to be given away so easily. The fact that the Tokugawas never regarded as having given Matsushima (present Takeshima) to Chosun is evident in a 1836 ruling in which a Japanese fisherman, Aizu Yaezo is executed by the Shogunate for having lied to the authorities. He received permission to go fishing in Matsushima (present Takeshima), but instead went to Takeshima (Ullungdo, by then recognized as Chosun terriorty by the Tokugawas). Fishing in Matsushima was considered OK, because it was recognized as Japanese territory. As for Ahn Yon Bok, I don’t see how he could have truthfully admitted to the Chosun authorities that he went to Ullungdo to make quick money on aballone and seagrass - it would have meant a death sentence for him under the isolationist policy (Chosun regarded Ullungod as its territory, but still prohibited its people from going to it - this empty island policy probably let the Tokugawas believe that Ullungdo was unowned). If he really had intensions of getting any territorial concessions from Japan, he would have lead a band of soldiers and politicians/beaurocrats, not a band of fishermen.
As for Japan wanting to re-invade Korea, that’s simply absurd. Those who are remoreseful about the past Japanese agression (definitely the majority) won’t hear of it, and right-wing apologists will never again let Japan have anything to do with the ungrateful peninsula (it’s rather amusing that the US is starting to feel the same anger as the Japanese right-wingers - “we may not have done everything right, but hell,why can’t they be a little more grateful!”). Anyhow, most Japanese Korean-watchers agree that Korea is in the process of returning to the Chinese sphere of influence where it probably feels most comfortable, and that in the future, Japan will have to contend with having China right across the Strait of Korea. Whether or not Japan will be forced into the Chinese sphere will depend on how we maintain our alliance with the US. I seriously hope we don’t blow it.
south korea returning to the chinese sphere of influence?
i don’t think so. i think korea is jockeying for a better position within the rok-japan-usa triangle, but taking the plunge and joining the china camp is not going to happen.
korea looks down on china, while it feels it gets too little respect from the usa. all things considered, if korea were to ever be under another country (if that’s what it really is), it would rather be under the country from which it’s trying to get respect than the country upon which it looks down it nose.
and it’s not like south korea isn’t taking its us-rok alliance seriously. sending troops to iraq was a huge concession to the usa, something that wouldn’t have been done unless south korea were serious about its relationship with washington. it helps that the us (government and military) has finally realized that treating korea like a partner is better than its previous (apparent) attitude, though there’s a ways to go in this regard.
if politicos in japan are worried about having the chinese sphere just off tsushima, then they need to look at what kind of contrition south korea is demanding and then work on how to do it.
ultimately koreans know they are better off with japan and the usa, not china. all they want is respect from those two, and then they’ll feel much better continuing in that direction.
Applejack - that was one of the best posts I have seen so far on this subject. I am curious as to your source - naturally I can’t read Japanese but I would still appreciate knowing where it came from. Thanks
Nora, as I said on the other discussion thread, I don’t believe sending troops was in response to any ROK-U.S. alliance. They may have sold it to the public as that but as I said on the other posting, the government saw financial opportunities in Iraq. It was not a huge concession to the U.S. It was two birds with one stone…help the Korean economy and keep America from pulling U.S. troops out of Korea to send to Iraq.
The government may have wanted it to look like they were helping Americans or Iraqis but they were ultimately helping themselves and the Korean economy. The Korean economy gained from the Vietnam War and this looks to be like a similar minded decision.
That school teacher in Song Nae may have gotten her information from Kim Jong Il.
http://japundit.com/archives/2005/03/13/302/
rovertneff103
From a Japanese book titled “To Which Does Takeshima Belong - Japan or Korea?” by Masao Shimojo (publisher Bunshu Shunjyuu, 2004)
and two Internet sites
http://toron.pepper.jp/jp/take/index.htm
http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/takeshima/
The second site was the one Gerry Bevers said he wanted to know the contents of. Sadly, they are both in Japanese, but they have beautiful maps that are a site to look at.
Both sites extensively cite historic Korean literature (from Taejong, Seojong, etc, and written in ancient Chinese, naturally) and historic Japanese literature to prove historic Japanese ownership, which combined with the agreements made in the San Francisco Treaty would make Japan the rightful owner of Takeshima today.
I’ve seen some comments at this site saying that Koreans should not make such a hype over the issue since they control the island now. I think that the Korean hype is based on their uneasiness and uncertainty regarding their rightfulness. If they lose the historic justification, they lose the moral superiority they have over Japan because they then become the aggressors and not the victims. I could leave the Takeshima conflict alone if the Korean government would stick to the Korean-Japanese agreement that allows fishermen of both countries access to the area. At the present state, my support goes to the Shimane fishermen, who out of exasperation to the central government that shies away from reminding Korea of the agreement, have lobbied the local government into proclaiming the Takeshima Day. However, I hope they do not resort to extreme measures as to torch themselves to remind the Japanese of the toll on unarmed Japanese fishermen over the fishing rights around the rocks - 23 dead, 25 wounded, and nearly 4,000 captured.
Nora,
In the case where an alliance or when foreign countries are concerned, it??s not the Korean intentions that count, but how Korea’s actions are perceived by her allies (or her non-allies, for that matter). In the last Mid-East crisis, Japan refused to send troops, on grounds of our pacifist constitution. A former diplomat and scholar, Hisahiko Okazaki, now writes that all China had to do at that time to gain the favor of US was to send some troops to the Mid-East, and that the Japan-US alliance would have been over. During the Clinton years, the US tried to force trade concessions on Japan, hinting that the future of the military alliance would be at stake if Japan didn’t bend. If it were not for the pro-Japan diplomats of the Reagan period who strongly opposed jeopardizing a military alliance for economic ends, there may even have been a US-China alliance. In a span of 10 years, twice, Japan came close to losing the US alliance. We were lucky. Alliances between countries cannot be taken for granted. Of course, the US-Japan alliance gives the US leverage in the Far East, but that is not crucial to her existence. The US may suddenly decide that a non-intervention policy in Asia may just be profitable as the present policy. Thus, it is Japan who must continuously show her appreciation since we rely on the alliance for our security and economic well-being. Same with South Korea. Do you find that humiliating? I don’t.
What is important in this case, is that ROK is sending out the wrong messages to the US. While it’s perfectly understandable to mourn the death of two young girls, Koreans have to realize that it was an accident. Those flag-tearing anti-US riots were uncalled for, and probably incomprehensible behavior to Americans. Actions and speeches given by your president are also distancing the US government. When relationships are normal, a top-official will not ask an ally to “make clear who your enemies are.” Such signs indicate that, if Koreans are only intending to “jockey for a better position”, you may already have gone overboard. The Cold War has ended. The status of the Korean peninsula as a cushion against Communist forces may have become a thing of the past depending on how the US wants to deal with China. What worries me is that South Koreans don’t seem to be taking this situation seriously.
Apple Jack - “rovertneff103″
Are the “v”s and “b”s giving you problems? Just kidding -
That is why I enjoy history so much - there is always at least another side to a story - and what is hard to believe is that both are factual - just a matter of perspective and what kind of information the person had when he/she reported it. Thanks for giving part of the other side.
robertneff - Sorry, didn’ t realize my mistake. Thought I checked.
I used to hate history because of that. It seemed everyone was just selevtively choosing facts that suited their theory and not being truthful. But now, I’ve realized history is not like physics were experiments can be conducted to prove something one way or another. What humans do really can’t be explained from any single aspect, expecially when there are more than two sides involved. That’s probably what makes the world a difficult place and at the same time, interesting.
I agree with you
It seemed everyone was just selevtively choosing facts that suited their theory and not being truthful. But now, I??ve realized history is not like physics were experiments can be conducted to prove something one way or another. What humans do really can??t be explained from any single aspect, expecially when there are more than two sides involved. That??s probably what makes the world a difficult place and at the same time, interesting.
I also think the problem is that not enough people actually go back and check the sources - they rely on what someone else says.
Hey Geronimo get used to it. Anyway, it usually takes the dumbass english teachers years and years to figure out that everyone hates them. koreans, each and every one of them hate foreigners. Those smiling korean coworkers of yours hate you more then you can believe. Look at koreans like Nora and Noolji. Smile, joke, stab the foreigner in the back.
Frenchy, sounds like you’re still recovering from some serious rejection. What, did one or more Korean gals shoot you down? And if all the “dumbass english teachers” take years and years to figure things out…what does that make you? An all-knowing and wise GI? Or just someone who thinks he’s better than everyone else? Seems like you have the exact same xenophobia you’re accusing the entire Korean population of having.
no, frenchy. we only hate you.
have a nice day,
from frenchy’s smiling coworker
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