but this review by the New York Observer’s Rex Reed is, simply put, outrageous:
For sewage in a cocktail shaker, there is Oldboy, a noxious helping of Korean Grand Guignol as pointless as it is shocking. What else can you expect from a nation weaned on kimchi, a mixture of raw garlic and cabbage buried underground until it rots, dug up from the grave and then served in earthenware pots sold at the Seoul airport as souvenirs? Directed by Chan-wook Park, a film-festival “comer” in this nation of emerging cinematic schlock, a cheerful drunk named Dae-su Oh disappears from the phone book and is sealed in a room for 15 years. Injected with drugs and forced to sleep every night with Valium gas that hisses through vents in the walls, he has no idea where he is, who put him there, or what he did to deserve such a fate in the first place. He keeps track of the time he’s imprisoned in this hole by etching a tattoo on his body for every year. Suddenly, he’s released in a field from the inside of a steamer trunk, more confused than ever. What follows is an extended two-hour nightmare in which he tries to track down his captors by tracing the takeout food they fed him in his cell, while the voices of his torturers contact him on cell phones and computer chat-room Web sites. What is going on here? Nobody knows. Meanwhile, he defeats an entire gang of killers with a knife sticking out of his back. He eats a live eel. A severed hand rips out a man???s teeth, one by one, with a hammer. Blood flows, there is much vomiting and incest, and more screams than Japanese kabuki. Part kung fu, part revenge-theme Charlie Chan murder mystery, part metaphysical Oriental mumbo-jumbo, all of it incomprehensible. Dae-su Oh is played by Min-sik Choi. I walked out at the point where he grabbed a pair of sharp scissors and cut his tongue off in blood-splattering close-ups. Obviously the actor is still in one piece, but I????d be willing to bet there????s some poor cow somewhere in Pusan who can no longer moo. Oldboy makes strange music, but it’s like a three-hour concerto played on a theremin.
Hey, look, I have no problem with people ripping the film — just because I liked it doesn’t mean Mr. Reed has to, too. I also understand that the critic in question is something of a wise ass. Fine. Rip the film in a wise-ass fashion. But why break out the racist tripe? Anyway, I won’t bother fisking this, especially since Q over at Purifying Flames has done such a good job already.
(Thanks go to the reader who gave me the heads up on this)
103 Comments
actually, nora park, reed doesn’t write about “rotting kimchi”, he writes “cabbage buried underground until it rots”. if you don’t want to deconstruct, then at least get your rant straight.
Rex Reed,
Unless you have lived in the Far East and have become accustomed to seeing daily occurrences that would be considered “shocking” to westerners, you cannot understand the exceptional means Oriental cinema must take to affect the audience.
Go review some anime or hentai manga.
gwang, rex reed’s flaminess has little to do with his abilities as a critic, but it does have everything to do with someone’s suggestion that he was jilted by a kyopo or korean woman.
bs and michael,
make sure to give me credit for coining ‘getting all tokto (over something’. even if marmot retains copyright.
norin nae, my evil twin, wrote:
actually, nora park, reed doesn??t write about ?橫rotting kimchi??, he writes ??cabbage buried underground until it rots??. if you don??t want to deconstruct, then at least get your rant straight.
you are right. but i didn’t write ‘rotting’ kimchi, either. i wrote ‘rotten kimchi’ and i also wrote ‘rotting’ but without ‘kimchi.’
i do agree that hair-splitting can be fun, necessary, and useful at times, but in this case i was only addressing his use of ‘rot’ (including its various forms) when a much more accurate word would be ‘ferment’ (in its various forms).
thanks for keeping me on my toes.
Marmot! Sshhhhhhhhh….
You don’t want the Korean netizens to get a hold of this….
We have enough problems here, without adding to the growing list.
Ignore Rex Reed, he’s been a clown for decades. Two rather grand reviews appeared last week… the Wall St Journal (Morgenstern) said (subscription required)
Shakespearean in its violence, “Oldboy” also calls up nightmare images of spiritual and physical isolation that are worthy of Samuel Beckett or Dostoyevsky. Does that suggest a thoroughly off-putting pretentiousness? I hope not, because Park Chan-wook’s dark, shocking drama, in Korean with English subtitles, is astonishing as well as punishing to behold.
A surreal thriller combined with a convoluted tale of revenge, it’s the story of a Seoul businessman, Oh Dae-su, who wakes up, after a drunken night around town, in a prison that could pass for a tawdry motel. Why is he there? What has he done? Dae-su collects clues from watching TV, but 15 years pass before he makes his way out and begins to discover the identity of the enemy who put him there. (He gets his first lead when a homeless man hands him a cellphone and a wallet full of cash.) “Oldboy” is a showcase for exceptional acting: Choi Min-sik as Dae-su, Lee Woo-jin as his old high-school classmate (thus the title), Gang Hye-jung as a sushi waitress who befriends him. The real star, though, is the filmmaker, Park Chan-wook. His film is not for the weak of stomach or heart, but it’s a stunner all the same.
Roger Ebert gave it 4 stars:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com.....S/50310001
How can two reviews of the same movie, so completely opposite polar different?
F*ck… it’s like Korea. You either hate it or you love it. No in betweens.
PS: I didn’t like the movie. I thought it was too strange.
Rex Reed, is he still alive? He wrote movie review back in the 70’s.
Movie reviewers, including the venerable Roger Ebert, take money and fringe benefits from the movie studios and directors. Think about it. Each film costs at least 20 mils to 100 mils. If you are willing to put out such money, would you let someone bad mouth your product?
Hollywood is run by “families”. Some actors disappear from screen because they lost favor with bosses. The movie, “Get Shorty”, shows some truths about Tinsel town.
What is Sa Hwa Dong? I can understand Kimbob. You are crazy about Kimbob. ??? ????????? ????????롱 ?????..?????sang ?????? two years ago.
” We are stuck to each other like rice to seaweed. We’ll never part…”
But Sa Hwa Dong? I donno. Is it a name of an area? Pusan?
Maybe i should mention this on Darcy Paquet’s site, but ever wonder if non-koreans understand why O Dae Su eats a live octopus? I mean, yes yes, i was harping about not being essentialist, but if say an “average” american wanted something that was not “nuggihae” he might choose to eat salad or fruit. Sushi might not come to mind. I just thought that this scene was over-hyped by foreign press, considering Korean people typically eat “sal-nakji.” Roger Ebert picks up on the symbolism, but I wonder if he understands the cultural context.
This along with “Save the Green Planet” were the only korean films i enjoyed lately. Hey kimbob, I love OB, but if you haen’t seen it, you should check out “Jigooreul Jee kyu rah”. That movie is my all time favorite Korean movie.
Rex must have had a Korean girlfriend who did him wrong. Nobody gets this racist without some history. And, this much emotion usually has to do with a member of an opposite sex.
Unless he is a Jew and he is really mad about NK selling nuke to MiddleEastern countries that are hostile to Israel.
Hmm…I must also figure out why Bevers turned pro-Jap as well. Is it just money or something else?
YoMo, please tell me you aren’t a KA. I hope to God that you are just a troll posing as a KA.
“What is Sa Hwa Dong? I can understand Kimbob.”
Ask Noolji Maripkan what that means. He’s the one who gave me the name. I thought I’d use it cause I like the sound of it. I could have used Benedict Arnold but that wouldn’t be right cause I’m not American.
Awwwwwww! A film too complex for Mr. Movie Critic’s puny brain that he has to blame the movie instead. What the hell was so confusing to him? You need half a brain to realize what’s going on.
Oh Daesu eats a live eel? Shows how serious he is about the attention he gives to movies he “reviews”. I don’t know of a species of eel that resembles a damn octopus.
Of course, it’s quite possible that Rex is actually a very sensitive nice guy. But of course, the New York Observer isn’t exactly the New York Times or even New York Daily News or New York Sun or even the dang silly New York Post. In a city where there is so much better FREE newspapers including but not limited to the Village Voice, NY Metro, NY AM news, hacks must write stuff that gets attention. Even bad publicity is good publicity. Or than again, maybe Rex is like the scumbags at HOT 97… Ahh.. you none New York people have no idea what I’m talking about do you?
come to think of it… actually what the heck is the New York Observer? Is that a daily or a zine??? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it at the Newstands… maybe it’s the orange paper beneath The Chief…
virtual wonderer,
Sorry to pop your bubble. I am a proud KA living in the best part of the U.S.A - Los Angeles, the city of Angels. But, some angels are of avenging kind.
The land of eternal sunshine where people are mellow…. till somebody crosses them on the freeway then they pull out guns to do driveby shooting.
All in a day’s work.
A huge KA community exists in LA and nobody messes with Koreans here. Even a mayor drops in to a Korean church and says in sheepish voice, ????????????? It is a heaven for KAs. You should come and live here. 24hr Korean channel. Numerous cafes and restaurants. And, everyone speaks Korean only.
Sometimes you will think you are in Seoul.
KoMo:
Rex must have had a Korean girlfriend who did him wrong.
I take it you’re in your 20s still and have never seen Rex Reed on television. There may be a bigger flamer in the world but if so, Rex would be first runner-up.
Anyway, he’s right on about how disgusting kimchi is in concept. Actually, to this day I still can’t stomach “classic” cabbage kimchi. It’s horrid. But when you think about it, so are butter and cheese, my own two favorites. Koreans say we Westerners reek of butter and cheese wafting from our pores, and when they say so it’s not altogether complimentary.
i’m sorry, but i read that review three times and i can’t find racist comments anywhere. reed talks about kimchi, kung fu and charlie chan movies. do allusions to other asian movies qualify as racism nowadays. sheeesh!
“A huge KA community exists in LA and nobody messes with Koreans here. that’s a good one! you’d have me almost believing you if i hadn’t live in long beach for five years. ??????
Rex Reed? Man, he’s a dinosaur! I can barely remember him on TV, and I’m an Old Boy myself. But the movie has gotten pretty good reviews in the Village Voice, New Yorker and so on, so his take can be discounted.
quoting rex reed:
“What else can you expect from a nation weaned on kimchi, a mixture of raw garlic and cabbage buried underground until it rots, dug up from the grave and then served in earthenware pots sold at the Seoul airport as souvenirs?”
rex reed is an old fart and i am usually forgiving of old farts for having old fart logic. if an 82-year-old guy used words like ‘chinaman’ or ‘jap’ it’s coming from a different place than if a 28-year-old does the same.
although i’ll let this one slide, that doesn’t negate that this is still a bit on the racist side, even without drawing in the charlie chan comment (does rex reed see asians on screen and automatically think ‘charlie chan’? man, that is pathetic). he doesn’t like a movie, and he turns around and says, what do you expect from a country like that?
if he doesn’t like a spike lee flick and starts saying, ‘well what do you expect from those people?’ if he doesn’t like a tarantino film and he goes, ‘how can you expect an italian to make a good film?’ he doesn’t like a luc besson movie, so he says, ‘what do you expect from a bunch of frog-eaters?’ would this be so different?
he’s an old fart. he comes from an old school where gratuitous potshots at minorities or foreigners didn’t raise an eyebrow.
look at the mickey rooney character in ‘breakfast at tiffany’s.’ a lot of people look at that and it doesn’t bother them, but most asian americans (and a lot of non-asians, too) see that and for them it ruins a perfectly good movie (no one likes to be constantly depicted as a ridiculous stereotype). it took hollywood a while to figure that out.
rex reed is not worth getting all tokto over. he’s an old fart. someone should point out to that paper that his comments are offensive, not funny. but other than that, just don’t pay it no mind.
hey, come to think of it, things like this appear in the korean press a lot, too. not just in hankyoreh, but the others, too. we need a vank for foreigners. maybe a vana (volunteer action network america). or maybe for whites. yeah… vana-white.
Hyindai
What are you trying to say? That all movies that receive good review do so because of kickbacks? Ebert gave OB 4 stars, and I don’t think he got any kickbacks . . . they wouldn’t bother, since the movie is not exactly shooting to be a blockbuster here. Although Ebert has been somewhat overgenerous with his stars lately.
It is not N.K. that sold nukes to Libya. It was Pakistan. Check the news here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7245019/
Rex needs to be shot
“not worth getting all tokto”–that’s brilliant! Like “going postal” Korean style…
i thought oldboy was just a so so movie. i personally cannot understand the hype.
****
rotting is juat another word for fermenting and everyone in the world eats something that could be classified as ‘rotten’. pickles, cheese, youghurt, kimchi, twoenjang/miso, ect. believe it or not, that cheese the italians love to eat with maggots running around within is something i’d like to try. there’s something very tasty produced when you have decay in food, the maggots must speed up the process. i’ll try it if i ever make it to sardinia and that’s not a slam but the truth on my part. i wanna know what it might taste like.
****
‘westerners smell like butter and stuff….’
i’m not giving up butter and cream for anyone!
****
’save the green planet…’
i made a few copies of ’stgp’ for some of my friends. now they keep bugging me for more korean flicks.
excellent movie.
though i have decided to always use ‘noolji maripkan’ as my pen name, i will now start to sign off my posts using the name ‘yo hae’. please be advised.
yo hae
If you’re Noolji Maripkan, then I’m Chabi Maripkan
Or maybe I want to be Pak Hykkose Kosogun. Any reason why you would pick a Silla Dynasty king as your pen name? Just curious
I don’t want to be Sa Hwa Dong anymore.
That so wasn’t an eel. What a fool.
no, i changed my mind, i will be known as “carrot top” from now on
Good choice.
Actually, I rememer precisely when noolji maripkan chose to use noolji maripkan as a name. I think he used to use Shin Jong Il, but at the dusk of the whole China-Koguryo spat(which seems to have completly dissappeared off the radar now) he declared that in order to protest Chinese “aggression” he would no longer use a three syllable sino-influenced name. Hence we now know him as Noolji Maripkan!
I think you made a mistake in spelling. It’s not “Shin Jong Il”, it’s “Kim Jong Il”.
No no, it was Shin Jong Il. Unless of course your response was a joke?
i want to be park hyokkose kosogun!
noolji, while in some sense fermentation can be the same as rotting, the two words have different meanings and different functions. there is a difference between rotten kimchi and fermeted kimchi.
rex reed chose that word for derogatory effect, nothing else.
if we deconstruct everything, where will we live?
Kim Jong IL, Shin Jong Il, same sh*t.
I will no longer use Sa Hwa Dong, Chosun Sino-influenced Sinicized name. I don’t like the Chinese (or anybody else for that matter). So I will from now on be known as
Yuri Isagum. Another Shilla king.
Hi Noolji, how ya doing?
wait, i decided to be known as “julia roberts” from now on
I’m just curious Bren, what exactly is the relevance of Rex Reed’s flaminess to his value as a movie critic, or is this just some random bigotry? I don’t see how your opinions are in any way less prejudiced or narrow minded than Mr. Reed’s.
“rex reed is not worth getting all tokto over…”
Norapark, I like your newly coined English word. Well done!
In case you were wondering, one of the last films Rex Reed did was “Inchon” in 1981. The movie was backed by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, and they sunk ~$50,000,000 into the whole boondoggle. It made a return of 0.3%, which may very well make it one of the biggest flops in history. But here’s the kicker, not only was the movie a complete and total failure, they decided to CUT ALL OF REX REED’s SCENES from the film! Now do you see where this is coming from?
“What else can you expect from a nation weaned on kimchi, a mixture of raw garlic and cabbage buried underground until it rots, dug up from the grave and then served in earthenware pots sold at the Seoul airport as souvenirs?”
Mini-skirts, go-go boots and pony rides ’til sunrise?
Rex Reed, what a queen. Reed and Rip Taylor were always good for a laugh.
Hahaha, KrZ lays down the smack on the dinosaur’s rant–well done.
mm yeah I still remember Rex Reed’s review of “Sid and Nancy”, where he referred to Gary Oldman as a cretin or something like that, and the lead actress as something equally derogatory - referring to the *actors*, not the character they played!!! Incredible. Rex Reed is a piece of dog shit, he should have his anus ripped out with a garden trowel while being slowly lowered foot first into a wood chipper.
Many restaurants in Korea has been punished by the Korean FDA for not knowing the difference between “rotten” kimchi, and “fermented” kimchi.
“Fermented” food is perfectly edible, and often delicious if you acquire a taste for it. “Rotten” food on the other hand…… If you’ve acquired a taste for “rotten” food, please seek psychiatric assistance.
From Merriam-Webster OnLine:
Main Entry: fer?men?ta?tion
Pronunciation: “fr-mn-’tA-shn, -”men-
Function: noun
1 a : a chemical change with effervescence b : an enzymatically controlled anaerobic breakdown of an energy-rich compound (as a carbohydrate to carbon dioxide and alcohol or to an organic acid); broadly : an enzymatically controlled transformation of an organic compound
Main Entry: 1rot
Pronunciation: ‘r?t
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): rot?ted; rot?ting
Etymology: Middle English roten, from Old English rotian; akin to Old High German rOzzEn to rot
intransitive senses
1 a : to undergo decomposition from the action of bacteria or fungi b : to become unsound or weak (as from use or chemical action)
2 a : to go to ruin : DETERIORATE b : to become morally corrupt : DEGENERATE
transitive senses : to cause to decompose or deteriorate with or as if with rot
synonym see DECAY
It sounds like Mr. Reed doesn??t like kimchee, or maybe Koreans. But he sounds like he knows how it??s made. Perhaps, he has met some Koreans and that led him to form a negative opinion. I wish he could meet some Koreans that post on this blog. There are so many open minded Koreans that so full of love and acceptance.
However, one thing does strike me as odd. Koreans tout movies like old boy as ?橫Korean films?? part of the Korean wave. Yet when Mr Reed refers to this film coming from Korea somehow this is called a racist remark. In other words Korans are always saying ??we Koreans, we Koreans ?? but once somebody says ??you Koreans?? then the Korans line up and starts shouting racism.
Somehow, I am reminded of that 007 movie a couple of year ago. I remember watching KBS and an interview with a KA in LA who was talking about all of the ??inaccuracies?? in the movie. Lots and lots of petty little things. Things that if it had been a Korean film, Korean would have lauded the film for its authenticity.
“But he sounds like he knows how it??s made. ”
Actually buried kimchi practice isn’t used that much these days with advent of the kimchi fridge. But I’ve tried buried kimchi before and I must say it’s extremely delicious. The chemical and fermenting process goes much better than anything.
“Yet when Mr Reed refers to this film coming from Korea somehow this is called a racist remark.”
And how open minded are you? Right, you couldn’t find anything in there that would be construed as racist, even a tiny little. Charlie Chan, kung fu fu manchu what kind of movie do you expect from nation of rotted cabbage eaters.
Part kung fu, part revenge-theme Charlie Chan murder mystery, part metaphysical Oriental mumbo-jumbo
again, how exactly is this racist? he’s comparing old boy to other films in the genre to which he feels it has similiarities. i don’t tend to agree with his take on the movie, but i just can’t see how this is racist.
furthermore, i hadn’t realized “korean” was a race. hard to figure considering koreans are genotypically and phenotypically identical to the japanese.
Rotting cabbage eaters? Someone obviouslly hasn’t discovered the joys of sauerkraut. I don’t know about you knew, but the Chinese LOVE sauerkraut! Seriously its true!
norin nae,
i agree that the kung-fu, charlie chan murder mystery sentence is not particularly racist (though i think it sad that seeing asians on screen automatically makes him think of charlie chan movies.
it is the intrinsic attitude of the second sentence that comes across as racist.
you also make a good point about using the word ‘racist’ to describe discrimination against a particular ethnic group. but i’ve always understood it this way: while we would cringe to hear such phrases as ‘the german race’ and we might even edit out ‘the korean race’ if given the option in a piece of text, that was common, accepted usage a few decades back, when the words ‘racism’ and ‘racist’ also were commonly used.
please go forward with your truth-telling that korean and japanese are genotypically and phenotypically identical. both countries need to be thrown into a new mental orbit.
You know he’s just pissed because the last real work he ever got was on a Korean project. They probably said something like, “You’re getting a part in the film with the biggest budget in history! This could be a launching board to amazing things!” Then they edited him out for the American release, the film was the biggest flop in history, and he was branded an ass-clown for being in it. His statements are undeniably motivated by anger and we all know exactly why he is angry at Koreans; he sees them as having sabotaged his career! Although, he should be clever enough to make a distinction between the Moonies and the general Korean populace…. Man I hate Moonies…
i vaguely remember something about the movie ‘inchon.’ was it really that bad?
the airport is nice.
That was back in 1981! So what went wrong with that Inchon movie? Did it even show?
I also hjated that movie. Thought it was completely stupid and over the top.
maybe it will make a huge comeback on its 25th anniversary next year.
why does the korean war inspire so few good movies? it’s like they forgot the whole war.
I think we can justifiably tag Reed as racist given that, in the span of that paragraph, he brings in stereotypical references to three very different cultures that all happen to be, racially speaking, Asian, for the sake of bashing Oldboy. (There’s a strong whiff of “Those people are all alike to me.”) His ripping on kimchi is not racist per se but it is bigoted and elitist.
I read and re-read the paragraph a couple times before deciding that someone in the US must be staging the First Annual Gay Archie Bunker Impersonation Contest and Reed’s review of Oldboy is his entry.
I still catch some re-runs of “All in the family” from TVLAND cable channel and episodes are still funny and relevant. I guess nothing really changes in human nature.
I couldn’t agree less with Rex Reed’s opinion of Old Boy. But I couldn’t possibly have enjoyed his review any more! I hope he reviews every Korean film that comes down the pike.
Mightve been a complete publicity stunt given that almost every accredited reviewer out there gave Oldboy 4 stars.
New York Observer? Rex Reed? Pulese….
But I will remember the two. What a flamer.
Thanks for the review, Rex. That’s one less um “fermented” Korean film I have to suffer through now.
Personally, I don’t mind light fare in Korean films, but when it comes to trying to outdo Hollywood, we are just over our heads. Witness the Barber of Hyo Ja Dong (did you notice its prejudiced stereotyping of Americans by the way?), Shilmi Do, Tae Guk Gi…pretty grim fare.
Norin Nae,
Oh come ON! MAN!
“Part kung fu, part revenge-theme Charlie Chan murder mystery, part metaphysical Oriental mumbo-jumbo”
“part metaphysical Oriental mumbo-jumbo” if you are trully non-racist, I hope you also classify Chrisitanity, Judaism and Islam as “part metaphysical Oriental mumbo-jumbo.” But please also include in the list of mumbo-jumbo philosophies of Western mumbo-jumbo artists like Nietche, Plato, Kant, etc.
Here you might say, “VW are you on CRACK? Oldboy is a MOVIE, not a RELIGION/PHILOSOPHY.”
And my response to you is that the very fact that he claims “Oriental mumbo-jumbo” he has already made a subjective opinion on Asian philosophy as a WHOLE. OH? Should I go on my open-minded friend? Oh WAIT, he ISN’T being racist, because ORIENTAL philosophies ARE Mumbo JUMO! Oh yes, how could I let my sensitivities cloud my objective reasoning. Because afterall, we all know that Plato wasn’t on crack when he was talking about the Philosopher King and how a Utopian society would be constructed, but that old Confusing Confucious, he’s been freebasing a bit too much. I guess I shouldn’t be so harsh on Rex Reed, because few reviews later he is bound to say, after reviewing “Alexander,” that it was full of Western Mumbo Jumbo.
CHARLIE CHAN MURDER MYSTERY???? Please don’t tell me you think Emperor Ming in Flash Gordon was just a “character” in a movie. Because I can show you a whole slew of North Korean films where the evil guy is a Korean man wearing a blond wig, sporting pilot sunglasses, and swaggering around. But of course using your own ruler, KJI’s directors are perfectly objective. Hell, it’s called “artistic liscence,” so don’t bugger out when you see these movies. And, also, if it was just a bad movie, why didn’t Rex say, “As bad as Joe vs. Volcano?” No it’s because it has Asians. AND, this is the big kicker my non-racist friend-they BEHAVE like Charlie Chan–so that is the conclusion you can come to. Who the heck is Charlie Chan you ask?
I guess you don’t know any Charlie Chan movies but it’s one of those stupid making fun of Asians where Charlie Chan says stupid crap like Confucious says, “XXXX.” Now, you put on my shoes for a second and let’s say Korean movies start to say, “Jesus says on the mount, XXX.” Oh?
Oh ok… I think you are right… Afterall, KimChee IS rotten cabbage, and NORIN NAE is just the natural biological odor that white people gives off. Sometimes, as a Korean American, I can’t distinguish racism with a valid biological traits of caucasions. Mea Culpa.
Ahh… I shouldn’t be so harsh on you, because you are the way you are because the world is the way it is. If you are the kind of person who recognizes that Koreans are racist towards YOU (afterall, your screen name is Norin Nae) , then you can use that knowledge to empathize with all people in similiar situation as you, regardless of color, creed, or gender. Which I hope you are doing as your claims of objectivity.
reed wrote about metaphysical oriental mumbo-jumbo, not oriental mumbo-jumbo, so get together with nora park and maybe with some help the two of you can read the review accurately. if he said metaphysical mumbo jumbo you wouldn’t be blowing a gasket? or should he have said metaphysical anglo-saxon mumbo-jumbo to make you feel better. maybe he thinks all metaphysics is mumbo-jumbo, and therefore sees oriental metaphysics as such. guess you wouldn’t care to look at it that way.
I can show you a whole slew of North Korean films where the evil guy is a Korean man wearing a blond wig, sporting pilot sunglasses, and swaggering around. But of course using your own ruler, KJI??s directors are perfectly objective. Hell, it??s called ?橫artistic liscence,?? so don??t bugger out when you see these movies.
not quite sure what you’re going on about here. did rex reed make a movie where white guys played villianous asians, OR did he compare the plot of old boy to the themes of charlie chan murder mysteries? perhaps this comparison was warranted. probably couldn’t see that with the blind rage though, huh?
and frankly i find the name norin nae amusing. that’s right, small-mindedness makes me laugh, it doesn’t make me angry. and yes, my stomach hurts from all the “hilarity” i read in your post.
btw, reed wrote that old boy was “like a three-hour concerto played on a theremin”. are concertos and theremins of asian origin? hmmm, he made an analogy that did refer to something asian. people must have missed that because it didn’t fit into the “facts” exposing reed as racist from what was otherwise a rather benign and unspectacular review.
And, also, if it was just a bad movie, why didn??t Rex say, ?橫As bad as Joe vs. Volcano?” No it??s because it has Asians.
where does reed call old boy “bad” like another asian movie?
Yomo, it’s more likely that Rex Reed had a Korean BOYfriend who done him wrong.
Norin Nae,
you focuse on the term “metaphyscial” but I can’t help but focus on the term “oriental.” What sort of stuff pops into your mind when you hear that word? Tell me honestely. “Oriental” whether you or I like it or not, has become a bloated term, sort of like “Tribalism.” What I mean to tell you is that when you turn to the back pages of *ahem* *ahem* such distinguished publications like Hustler, it used to be the case that the ads would say, “Oriental bitches wants to suck your xxx.” Oriental. Doesn’t necessarily just mean “Eastern” anymore. It means “exotic.” Or perhaps even “strange.” Or something “Foreign”. Or could be even “mysterious.” Oh?? I am over ANALizing? What I am getting at with the Hustler example, is that the term is used to convey a certain sense of exoticism/fetishism/ or to let’s plainly put–”asian mumbo jumbo”–a “mumbo jumbo” in this case, men would find intriguing and therefore willing to part there $3 dollars the first 5 minutes and $1 dollar each additional minutes. But I am just an overly sensitive KA. But the term is something westerners use to refer to a specific nebulous quality about Asians that they don’t know how to express, but to simply generalize as being something… “oriental.”
You insist that Reed’s statement should be interpreted as him QUALIFYING only those “mumbo jumboyish” metaphysical oriental philosophies. Like you said, metaphyscis by definition deals with philosophies in general. So, he is calling the philosophies in the movie as being mumbo jumbo. THen why is he using a qualifyer like “Oriental,” one must inquire. You wrote, “should he have said metaphysical anglo-saxon mumbo-jumbo to make you feel better.” That’s my exact point my friend. He WOULDN’T write stuff like “metaphysical anglo-saxon mumbo-jumbo” because from his perspective anglo-saxon mumbo jumbo is the norm, and therefore, by definition, cannot be mumbo jumbo. Tell me my friend. when is the last time YOU said “metaphysical Christian mumbo-jumbo.” Of course, “Christian” isn’t even a bloated term that Oriental is. When he watches Hollywood movies, does he write, “American” mumbo jumbo? Hell no. He probably writes stuff like, “New Age” mumbo jumbo. But you don’t see the difference in this. WHy? The term “new age” refers to a certain philosophy. The term “oriental” refers to those mumbo jumboish PAN-asian qualities. Hence, you will never see Rex Reed say stuff like “American” mumbo jumbo. If there is a stain on my face he would say that I am dirty. But if I say that he has stains on his face, he says, “I can’t see no stains, therefore you are an overly sensitive liar.”
As for my KJI film comparison, let me explain further. Back before I moved to this country, that is, 1980’s… There were two successful Korean comedians who called themselves “Shikkumunzzz.” I’m not sure if you understand Korean, but it’s a play on Korean word with english grammar to mean, “Blacks.” They would go on stage, with their faces PAINTED in BLACK with their lips made CONSPICUOUSLY enormous. They would then dress in all black attire and do their schtick. At the time I was 10 or so, and I thought it was so funny. But you tell me, my open-minded friend. Is that racism? I knew Korean people who insisted it’s not racism, and black people are getting overly sensitive–they can’t take a joke. Now. If Korean people start to create stereotyped “white men” characters on TV, don’t you think this is racism? Let us apply this logic one step farther: Don’t you think CHARLIE CHAN movies are racist? Don’t you think yellow peril Emperor MING is racist? I don’t know Norin Nae… I’m just Mr. Sensitive. I guess that means girls dig me, and since you aren’t sensitive… well… I feel pity for thee.
Norin Nae, you wrote, ” OR did he compare the plot of old boy to the themes of charlie chan murder mysteries?” PUHAHHAHHAA. As we Korean people say, KE KE KE KE KE. Oh???? REally? so then why didn’t he say, “it’s like a bad detective B movie?” No my friend who is the bastion of objectivity, he relates it to Charlie Chan, because Charlie Chan is an asian, and his movies were bad. That is ok. But somehow, my open-minded friend, the fact that those movies were completely racist, making fun of the “crazy nature” of asians is just something we all should be glossing over while reading Reed’s review. Because hell, me and Nora, you know, we are just dumb immigrants with low reading comprehension skills and we don’t really know when to ignore the nuances of his references.
Speaking of our stupidity as dumb foreigners, you wrote, “actually, nora park, reed doesn??t write about ?橫rotting kimchi??, he writes ??cabbage buried underground until it rots??. if you don??t want to deconstruct, then at least get your rant straight.”
!!! Again, let me apologize. Having spent only few years in ESL, I don’t really understand the finer points of English grammar and therefore, I do not understand the difference in saying, ??rotting kimchi?? and ??cabbage buried underground until it rots.?? Please educate me, because I need to learn english from you. I would appreciate it very much.
You keep missing my point Norin Nae. When I refer to Joe Versus Volcano, it’s because there are plenty of bad movies in Hollywood. But of ALL the movies in ALL of hollywood history, our Good Ol’ Mr. Reed chooses CHARLIE CHAN. WHY? Because CHARLIE CHAN IS ASIAN. 2+2=4. and if not, and if it is purely accidental/coincidental, well, urinate on my feet and tell me that the humidity level is high.
You wrote, “btw, reed wrote that old boy was ??like a three-hour concerto played on a theremin??. are concertos and theremins of asian origin?” Your logic is way off my friend. To be perfectly frank, I’m not even sure your logic process here. You seem to imply that we can’t claim Reed uses bloated terms and racist allusions, because he also uses non bloated terms and non-racist allusions. I am totally confused. Maybe it’s because I received American education… Damn those confusing ESL teachers!
And let me end my rant by answering your quote, “and frankly i find the name norin nae amusing. that??s right, small-mindedness makes me laugh, it doesn??t make me angry.” Small-mindedness shouldn’t make you laugh, but it should make you angry. ANgry enough to demand change. If black people call you a cracker or a honky, but you find those pejoritive terms funny, well, you will see that they don’t sound so funny if you live in a society where EVERYONE views you with those “occidental” norin-nae prone qualities. And maybe we should work together to combat such said human stupidity.
dogbert,
You are right. NewYork, Greenwich village, movie critic…
I saw him a couple of times on TV in seventies. He looked somewhat weird. Now I think about it, it could’ve been a gay look.
By now, he must be in his early seventies. It would be lucky for him just to get up from the bed every morning, let alone having sex with anyone, male or female.
For sewage in a cocktail shaker, there is Oldboy, a noxious
helping of Korean Grand Guignol as pointless as it is shocking. What else
can you expect from a nation weaned on kimchi, a mixture of raw garlic and cabbage buried underground until it rots, dug up from the grave and then served in earthenware pots sold at the Seoul airport as souvenirs?
i imagine you reading the above excerpt from rex reed’s review in the following manner: blah blah blah blah rotting kimchi blah blah blah. what
you, and others, apparently missed in rushing to condemn reed as a racists is that he is analogizing the process of making kimchi with the movie, both of which he finds “noxious” or horrifying (guignol). i don’t see how someone finding kimchi or old boy noxious or horrifying qualifies as being racist. perhaps your and my definitions of “racism” are rather different.
for the record, raw garlic and cabbage (and a few other ingredients reed
failed to mention) buried underground until it rots results in kimchi. rotting kimchi, like rotting saurkraut, or any other rotting food, is probably not palatable and should be discarded. did i clear that up for you? glad to help where i can, my friend (since i see from your post we’re friends now).
and again, why are you going on about charlie chan? were charlie chan movies from the ’30s and 40’s racist? probably. despite the fact that the
character was based on a real detective who was chinese-american and lived in hawaii, the stereotypes may have been offensive (#1 son, and so forth). but charlie chan wasn’t stupid, these were american movies - not asian movies - and reed didn’t make them or write them. what he did was try to give the reader a sense of what old boy had in store for the viewer (his job), and “kung fu”, “revenge-theme charlie chan murder mysteries”, and “metaphysical oriental mumbo-jumbo” was how he chose to describe it (not that i agree). reed never said charlie chan movies or kung fu were bad. you may have read into his statements too far an inferred that, but that’s your own doing. even had he said that kung fu and charlie chan suck, how is this racist? does he say that boxing and the rockford files are better? no. simply his observations and not an indictment of an entire race of people.
you find racist comments in what reed wrote because that’s what you want
to find. you, among others, picked parts of what he wrote (inaccurately, i
might add) out of context and without much thought, and decided that he
was slighting the “korean” race - whatever that is - because it fulfills your need to be the perpetual victim. open your eyes and mind a little and you might see it.
as far as “working together to combat” human stupidity, forget it. if dumbasses want to go around and whisper “norin nae”, “cracker”, “nigger” or “gook”, behind people’s backs, fighting it is futile. what i prefer to do is ridicule these displays of ignorance. if you ever listened to the howard stern show, you might have heard the “KKK guy”. he would come on and spout all kinds of racist crap and some people were offended. but what those people didn’t understand is that stern wasn’t endorsing what this nitwit had to say, he was laughing at him and his ignorance and the guy was too stupid to realize it. by using the name norin nae i’m diffusing the sting that this kind of language is meant to deliver as well as laughing at those senseless enought to use it. in the end this is bound to be far more effective a strategy in “combatting” this sort behavior than “getting angry”.
Norin Nae
I think you miss the point about Charlie Chan. Charlie Chan is offensive to Asians, not because of the “Numbuh wun”-type stereotypes it propagates; it is offensive because the so-called Chinaman was played by a white man with his eyes taped, affecting a ludicrous accent. He may have been portrayed as clever enough as you point out (”not stupid”), but defending Charlie Chan on that basis is a bit like defending white guys smearing their faces in shoe polish and fattening their lips with garish lipstick, singing and dancing as “Negroes,” on the basis of their “talent.”
Norin Nae,
From your nonchalant-ness about racism and any hint of racism that seepingly was exuded by Dino-Rex Reed’s comments, it is obvious to anyone that you never experience or ever remotely encountered any sort of racism and ethnic persecution in your life. Who are you to tell people how they should feel? You??re pretty much are like a spectator looking into a fish tank and commenting on how you ?橫think?? the fishes swimming should feel (and no I am not comparing Koreans or any race to fishes in a fish tank, just finding an example of what you are doing when you write things you have no clue about, which is exactly what Dino-Rex is doing). So if a Jewish person sees a swastika as an arm band on someone??s shirt, they should just laugh at that person??s ignorance? If a black person, sees a burning cross on someone??s lawn, then they should just chuckle and say man that was pretty funny? So let??s equate this to another situation, if Rex wrote about the movie ??Motorcycle Diaries?? and said that ??the movie stunk like beans cooked and squeezed into a burrito, but what do you expect from a country of bean eating people??? So that is not racist? If he mentions collard greens and chicken when reviewing the movie ??Barber Shop?? and comparing it to movies like ??Birth of a Nation??, that is not racist? I believe your answer would be no since you are either immune from this or never experience being called or treated like crap by another race. If the comments I mentioned above were made by Rex, the NAACP or any other organizations would be asking for Reed??s resignation and whatever. But because us Asians need to keep or mouths shut and never complain like good Orientals, so to keep people like you happy.
You are missing the point because you believe in that little brain of yours that racism needs to be blatant or obvious. You don??t understand that the worst kind of racism is the one muttered under people??s breaths and intrinsically and carefully hidden and buried in words. Give us a break on trying to tell us what is racism and what is not.
Norin Nae…
*sigh* Ok, first let me apologize for being nasty to you. I’ll STRIVE to be as succinct and polite as I can be. (even though it will undoubtly become an essay) Let’s go to your quote, “What else can you expect from a nation weaned on kimchi, a mixture of raw garlic and cabbage buried underground until it rots, dug up from the grave and then served in earthenware pots sold at the Seoul airport as souvenirs?”
Norin Nae, please don’t think I am so stupid I don’t see that Reed is trying to connect the “rotten” nature of kimchee and the “rotten” nature of the film. But your claim is he is MERELY connecting the rotten nature. If you were right that would be FINE. Heck, you must think that I am some sort of uber-nationalist Korean, whose eyes gleam in tears everytime I watch that stupid “Korean Kimchee” commercial on ArirangTV. No. Let me be perfectly be frank with you. I don’t like “shin” kimchee either. And, TONS of Korean people HATED Old Boy. So the fact that both kimchee and Old Boy are Korean doesn’t mean that “we-koreans” are defending the “honor” of our “national treasures” number 2 and 3. (number 1 being one of the Seoul Gate.) So why does Reed say, “What else do you expect from a nation that is…”
Now someone mentions that “Korean” isn’t a race. Which is true, I agree wholeheartedly. But If someone calls me a chink, and I call it racism, then don’t respond to me by saying that it ain’t racism because chinky-chink-chink is an ethnic slur reserved only for Chinese people. Why do I say this? Because it’s clear that Reed isn’t referring to Old Boy as strictly an “Korean film” per se, but as a mumbo-jumbo “Oriental” film, which looks so much like a Kung Fu(Chinese origin) Charlie Chan(bastardized portrayal of Chinese) films.
Let me go back to this quote, “What else do you expect from a nation that is…” Norin Nae, it’s almost as if, you are simply playing devil’s advocate so that I write these long posts so that more people can understand the folly of racist logic.
Now let us do some examples again. What if a Korean American were to say, “Oh that white guy is dumb. He only got a 1100 on his SATs. But what can you expect from a lazy race?” Now. You tell me, is the person who says this a racist? I would hope that you do. But you are probably thinking, “VW, the TWO has NO correlation.” I hope I am wrong, because if you do think that way, you trully use a better set of rulers for those people you love and an entirely different set for people whom you hate.
You say that Kimchi rotting, old boy rotting statement has nothing to do with the “inherent” rotting quality of Koreans. And I am too sensitive to read it in that fashion.
In my example, using your OWN logic, we would have to say, “Yes the average KA probably has higher SAT score than the general white population” and “yes white americans on average study less for SATs” So is the statement then valid??? Now here is the big kicker–those two statements come to the conclusion that white guy is stupid BECAUSE he is WHITE. Why do I have to point out to you something that is so easy to see? Well, YOU don’t care that Westerners also have rotting vegetables including pickles and rotting dariy products. But you see Rex Reed singles out Korea as the nation that produces rotten crap, therefore, you can only expect rotten crap to come out of Korea. THAT is a BIGOTED conclusion. (If you don’t read it that way, then we trully have a different definition of logic) BUT what is racism? Racism is just bigotry applied to race. But so many people are “ok” if someone calls them a bigot, but throws a, as someone else says this, a shitstorm, if they are called a racist. Well, then what’s up with all this other Asian, Oriental, Kung fu references? Is Rex Reed a bigot? But from your argument, it is clear that he isn’t EVEN a bigot.
The phrase, “Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys” is BIGOTED. Just because it’s funny to you, doesn’t make it any less so. Just as if I said, “Martha Stuart is a cu-nt.” That would also be a sexist statement. You could say, “But VW, Martha IS a cu-nt.” well, what am I suppose to respond to that? It’s like my previous statement. Is Korean poeple’s accusation of a Norin Nae from white people racist? Or should I think like you and say, “oh but Korean people are also impressed by the achievements of the Western civilization. I shouldn’t read between the lines and pick out only what I ‘want’ to see. Obviously Norin Nae is not a racist attribute that Koreans put on whites. It is merely a biological phenomena. the fact that Korean people say all this other stuff about them is proof.”
I am somewhat weary, because it is obvious to me that the way our neurons polorize the sodium ions on our cellular membrane is somehow different. It doesn’t seem to be that I say Poe-tay-toe and you say Poe-tah-toe. It seems that one of us is saying that the triangle has 3 sides and 3 points and the other is saying it has 3 sides and 2 points…
I noticed that when you answer me, you tend to skip a lot of my arguments. I don’t know if that’s because you are busy or if you just don’t understand my argument (maybe I’m a poor writer?) or if you just don’t like to read what you don’t want to read.
Well, then I guess there really is no need for dialogue and I will stop harping at you now. Mea Culpa
Dave wrote:
You??re pretty much are like a spectator looking into a fish tank and commenting on how you ?橫think?? the fishes swimming should feel (and no I am not comparing Koreans or any race to fishes in a fish tank, just finding an example of what you are doing when you write things you have no clue about, which is exactly what Dino-Rex is doing).
Are you saying I’m a fish?! Are you suggesting I smell like a fish?! How dare you! Tell me what you’re selling so I can boycott it!
Hey Nora,
Pretty funny there. I guess if you use fish sauce as a perfume it’s hard to mask.
I sell the New York Observer.
boy, i guess i assumed that you guys ould at least read what i had to write. must have just been some more blah blah blah blah rotten kimchi blah blah blah to most of you.
first, oh dae-su, i didn’t defend charlie chan. go back and read what i wrote.
dave, i didn’t tell anyone how they should feel. what i said was that if you’re looking for racism you’re probably going to find it. it often seems to me that the minute someone non-korean mentions anything about korea or koreans, the racism complaints start to fly. the show “lost” was a prime example. i can’t tell people how they should feel, but i can point out their inconsistencies in applying those feelings.
and dave, before you started going on about my dealings with racism, you should have asked. until i was 26 i lived in a town that was about 60:40 black to white. the blacks lived on the “other side” of the tracks from me and most of my friends growing up were white. but i played a lot of sports and ended up having a lot of black friends by high school as well. in my high school the blacks and whites generally didn’t get along too well, and you might imagine the kind of experiences i had having friends on both sides of it. my girlfriend for 2 years during high school was black and this was in the early 1980s when it still wasn’t really looked positively on, at least not in my hometown.
i also lived and worked in long beach, california for 2 years. i was an electrician and i worked for a mexican-american electrical contractor. there were no other “white” employees and most of my co-workers didn’t speak english.
i now live and work in south korea and have been with my korean wife for almost 4 years. i’ve had to deal with some downright overt racism just walking down the street with my wife. we’re about to have a child and i don’t see that making things much better in terms of how some koreans view my family.
as i said, i prefer to deal with most of this by laughing at those people on the street. you see dave, i’ve been in the center of racial conflict since i was born and if i spent all my time and energy looking for the smallest racial slights and got angry everytime i read about ???????’s in the newspaper or discussion boards, i’d be pretty misearble. i think that ultimately only time can make people accept each other, not being told that i should by racial harmonizers “combatting” the problem. but don’t get me wrong, if someone decided to physically threaten me or my family i’d be throwing down. but, please don’t think i’m confused over the meaning of racism; i’ve seen, and continue to see, plenty of it.
now onto this:
please don???t think I am so stupid I don??t see that Reed is trying to connect the ?橫rotten?? nature of kimchee and the ??rotten?? nature of the film. But your claim is he is MERELY connecting the rotten nature.
i see the time i spent explaining what reed did was certainly wasted. go back and read it again. i didn’t say he was connecting “rotten natures”, i said he finds the process of making kimchi (burying and digging up) noxious and horrid, analogous to the violence in the the movie. he didn’t say koreans are noxious or horrid, he was commenting on a korean food. and i think reed was trying to be funny, but perhaps it was culturally insensitive. but then again, after reading his reviews of other movies, i don’t think reed is too concerned people’s feelings. however mean-spirited his remarks were, comparing the “noxious” process of making kimchi to a movie from the country that makes kimchi seems reasonable.
let me try to address your other comments quickly.
if child calls you a “chink” not knowing it’s a racial slur i’d say it was ignorance not racism. if an adult uses this word, knowing the meaning, that’s racist. if an adult, seeing that you’re asian and not knowing the difference between koreans and chinese, uses this word, he’s both racist and ignorant. did rex reed use this word? than what exactly is the point? you’re trying to twist reed’s statments into something they’re not for the purposes of calling him a racist. look at it again…
In my example, using your OWN logic, we would have to say, ?橫Yes the average KA probably has higher SAT score than the general white population?? and ??yes white americans on average study less for SATs?? So is the statement then valid??? Now here is the big kicker??those two statements come to the conclusion that white guy is stupid BECAUSE he is WHITE.
i think you’re confusing yourself here. the statement that koreans score better than whites on SATs and that whites study less for the SATs should not lead you to the conclusion that whites are stupid because they’re white. based on those 2 statements alone (of course we know there are many more factors to consider) you should come to the conclusion that koreans score better on the SAT because the study more. i see logic is not your strong point.
moreover, what do your comments about white/korean scores on the SAT have to do with what reed wrote. he wasn’t making sweeping generalizations about koreans, korean movies, or korean culture and he’s not a sociologist publishing the results of a detailed study on some social phenomena. he’s a movie reviewer. he didn’t single out korea as the nation that produces “rotten crap”. again your changing his comments to fit your argument. and i don’t know if reed is a bigot or not. he might be. but from reading his reviews i’d just say he’s mean in general. go read some of his other reviews.
your reasoning on the use of norin nae is also wildy convoluted. norin nae is racially-charged term. what racially-charged terms did reed use?
finally, i thought i did answer all of your arguments. if you made some that i didn’t answer, perhaps i didn’t realize there was an agrument being made. afterall, i’m not as smart as one of you KA’s, right?
and by the way dave, if you want to make snide comments about me, i say we have a face to face and you can tell me about my little brain and see if i laugh.
just email me and we can arrange it.
my email address: norinnae@gmail.com
No one is going to email you. You have to have some sort of site where you can express your opinions and people can comment on it. What’s that called? Something starting with a B— hmmmm
thanks krz. so your saying i need to set up a b-hmmmm just so people can arrange to meet me. seems rather circuitous don’t ya think?
norin nae wrote:
boy, i guess i assumed that you guys ould at least read what i had to write. must have just been some more blah blah blah blah rotten kimchi blah blah blah to most of you.
this is the second time i’ve read you saying this. i’ll just say that i think you’re being a bit of a jerk if you think my (am i part of ‘and others’ you mentioned the first time you said that?) whole beef can be simplified into something like this. just because i don’t agree with everything you say doesn’t mean i don’t understand what your point or what else is going on.
later you wrote:
what i said was that if you??re looking for racism you??re probably going to find it. it often seems to me that the minute someone non-korean mentions anything about korea or koreans, the racism complaints start to fly.
i think you are on to something there when describing some asian american groups, korean americans included. the war can be lost when people are trying to fight every single battle.
i think the same sentence also applies to a lot of non-koreans in korea (although lots of bad things certainly are the result of racism).
you also wrote:
the show ?橫lost?? was a prime example. i can??t tell people how they should feel, but i can point out their inconsistencies in applying those feelings.
here is an example of what i was talking about when people take a vocal opinion and assume it to be the position of the majority (something i was criticized for saying on another subject)…
i’m not saying that you, norin nae, are doing this, but some do, and this would be a good example. yes, apparently there are some korean ‘netizens’ who have expressed their outrage at the depictions in ‘lost.’
but at the same time, korean cable is very actively promoting this show. the koreans i know who have seen this have no problem with the depiction of korean men (i only saw one glimpse of what they were talking about, when i saw one episode while in california in december).
so what is majority opinion? the vocal netizens? or others who haven’t made their thoughts known? can we assume that the vocal opinion is more valid because the netizens went to the trouble to organize, or is the nature of the net such that it’s easier for people with fringe opinions to make opinions seem mainstream just by shouting more often (the janet jackson nipplegate thing comes to mind)?
and dave, before you started going on about my dealings with racism, you should have asked. until i was 26 i lived in a town that was about 60:40 black to white. the blacks lived on the ??other side?? of the tracks from me and most of my friends growing up were white. but i played a lot of sports and ended up having a lot of black friends by high school as well. in my high school the blacks and whites generally didn??t get along too well, and you might imagine the kind of experiences i had having friends on both sides of it. my girlfriend for 2 years during high school was black and this was in the early 1980s when it still wasn??t really looked positively on, at least not in my hometown.
indeed you do seem like someone is comfortable around people of other race’s and probably doesn’t necessarily think he is superior to people on the basis of his ethnicity. however, in korea it seems you have adopted a pretty healthy attitude about letting things go, too. i say this because i am about to say something that might offend you…
i now live and work in south korea and have been with my korean wife for almost 4 years.
this doesn’t mean much. from my own experience — and just to be clear, i’m not saying this about you — some of the most vehemently anti-korean racist people i’ve met were married to or seriously involved with a korean woman. (that’s not to say that being married to a korean person automatically makes one a racist; in most cases i know this is not at all the case).
i’m just saying that for one to accept being married to a korean person as a sign that that non-korean is not racist toward koreans is making a whole bunch of assumptions that may not be true. thus, it means little to me.
i??ve had to deal with some downright overt racism just walking down the street with my wife. we??re about to have a child and i don??t see that making things much better in terms of how some koreans view my family.
as i said, i prefer to deal with most of this by laughing at those people on the street. you see dave, i??ve been in the center of racial conflict since i was born and if i spent all my time and energy looking for the smallest racial slights and got angry everytime i read about ?????????s in the newspaper or discussion boards, i??d be pretty misearble.
this is what i meant by your healthy attitude. i think others would be wise to emulate it.
i think that ultimately only time can make people accept each other, not being told that i should by racial harmonizers ?橫combatting?? the problem.
i think you’re right in general, but there are times where someone does need education on the matter. i’ll stop and tell a kid and his mom, why saying ??????? or ?????????? is offensive, even though those don’t relate to me directly. if i overhear it and don’t say anything, who will?
the only only other reason i’m writing is to question your statement when you said: he wasn??t making sweeping generalizations about koreans, korean movies, or korean culture
so when reed said, ‘what else [but noxious, pointless, shocking stuff that emphasizes the horrifying or the macabre] can you expect from a nation weaned on [noxious, rotting food]…” this was not a sweeping generalization of some kind? this was not saying a country like this can only produce something like this?
i think you make some valid points about over-reacting to racist slurs, which is something i agree happens among some korean or asian-american groups (and something i poked fun at earlier).
but i think that for much of this thread it seems you were trying to convince people that what he said was not really racist, rather than acknowledging it was racist, but to just let it go.
in my own earlier comments, i did let the charlie chan comment go, even though i suggested it was problematic. but if someone were to come along and tell me that ‘oh, that charlie chan comment’s not racist,’ i would step up to the plate and say something.
to extend your analogy (if a child calls you a ?橫chink?? not knowing it??s a racial slur i??d say it was ignorance not racism. if an adult uses this word, knowing the meaning, that??s racist(/i), i would say it’s like a child having called me a ‘chink,’ and then the adult next to that child excusing what the child said because ‘chink’ is not really racist. after all, ‘chink’ is only one letter off from ‘china.’
you wrote:
i don??t know if reed is a bigot or not. he might be. but from reading his reviews i??d just say he??s mean in general. go read some of his other reviews.
past obnoxious behavior doesn’t excuse racism. but i’ll say again, there’s no need to get all tokto over this guy. (you’d agree with that, right?)
this is the second time i??ve read you saying this. i??ll just say that i think you??re being a bit of a jerk if you think my (am i part of ???and others?? you mentioned the first time you said that?) whole beef can be simplified into something like this. just because i don??t agree with everything you say doesn??t mean i don??t understand what your point or what else is going on.
actually nora, i was referring to dave, vw, and oh dae su. just didn’t feel like writing all their names. i tried to explain the what i thought reed was trying to do with the “kimchi” comments, but couldn’t seem to get the point through.
i would also agree that other ethnicities are equally as sensitive to comments made by “outsiders”, but in the past 4 years my living in korea has made me more aware of the korean sensitivity.
in regards to the “lost” complaints, i didn’t say it was anywhere near a majority of people. what i meant to convey is that even when “outsiders” include something korean, regardless if it is positive, negative or benign reflection of korean culture, it is bound to make some koreans upset. i honestly think the 2 koreans on lost are coming across as genuinely “good” people, if a bit stereotypical. but i’m sure any korean person possesses some korean characteristics (not physical) that are stereotypically korean. therefore any korean character would be someways generalized.
i??m just saying that for one to accept being married to a korean person as a sign that that non-korean is not racist toward koreans is making a whole bunch of assumptions that may not be true. thus, it means little to me.
yes. and i didn’t bring up my wife as evidence of my racial tolerance. i brought her into this because being married to her (and dating her) in korea are experiences (in addition to the other experiences i noted) that help refute dave’s assertion that i’ve never witnessed racism in my life.
so when reed said, ??what else [but noxious, pointless, shocking stuff that emphasizes the horrifying or the macabre] can you expect from a nation weaned on [noxious, rotting food]????? this was not a sweeping generalization of some kind? this was not saying a country like this can only produce something like this?
again, my interpretation of what reed was trying to say is that in a country where a food (i.e. kimchi) is buried until it rots and dug up and later sold, people will be more prone to make movies of a noxious nature. i don’t think he was trying to say the movie was rotten like kimchi, but that it was virulent, like the act of burying and digging up something and then selling it would appear to be to many americans. i don’t know if this will clear it up or not.
and what i was trying to do is make people a little more conscious of the way they throw terms like “racism” around. reed seems to be an ass and his ideas a little dated, but i don’t think he was putting down koreans, i think he was putting down the movie. if he had liked the movie and said, “what else can you expect from a nation weaned on spicy food, and this movie had a lot of flavor”, i don’t think many people would have blinked an eye. but because he didn’t like old boy his review comes across as racist to many people. if reed had compared old boy ot other “good” asian movies and noted it’s deep confuscian morality in a positive manner, i doubt people would be uspet despite the generalizations inherent in these comparisons.
thanks for keeping a level head. i’ll try to do the same…