I’ve had a night to sit on President Roh’s “letter to the people” in which he all but declared war on Japan. And I’m still at a loss as to what to say. From the Korea Times:
Declaring a virtual war of diplomacy, President Roh Moo-hyun criticized Japan on Wednesday for attempting to justify its 1910-45 colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula and claim territorial sovereignty over the Tokto (Dokdo) islets in the East Sea.
Issuing a statement to the people, Roh said, “Now the government cannot but squarely address the matter. We can no longer sit idle as Japan’s imperial move will (adversely) determine the future of the Korean Peninsula and Northeast Asia.”
He said the government will take all diplomatic steps to tackle the matter and the “core of such measures will be urging the Japanese government to backtrack.”
“Although there is concern that the Japanese government will fail to come up with a sincere response to our request, we will persistently call for it,” Roh said. Roh himself wrote the strongly-worded statement, aides said.
Regarding Japan’s misdeeds, Roh cited Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi’s visit to a shrine dedicated to those killed while fighting in World War II, declaration of Takeshima Day by a Japanese local council and distortion of history in school textbooks.
“Such behaviors nullify all the remorse and apologies of the past. We cannot but judge that such acts were committed with the consent of the Japanese central government. They were not done by only a certain prefecture and some chauvinists,” Roh said.
If you read Korean, be sure to look at the original linked above. If not, read some of the translated sections via the Korea Times or Chosun Ilbo.
Interestingly enough, it appears the Foreign Ministry was exactly cut into the loop, according to the Chosun Ilbo and JoongAng Ilbo. From the Chosun:
Despite the fact that the president has virtually declared “diplomatic war” on Japan, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the body nominally responsible for these of things, has not released a single statement or explanation for two days.
Word is that the ministry is not so much refusing as unable to comment, because President Roh Moo-hyun released his letter slamming Japan without first consulting it. The only remark that has been made so far came from Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon, who said the ministry would make concrete plans to implement the president’s will. Other questions have been met with responses of, “We’re busy.”
Since the president’s declaration of war on Japan, Foreign Ministry staff look lost. Asked about for the precise meaning and background to the president’s statement, they will only say, “Ask Cheong Wa Dae.” One official said the Foreign Ministry was no longer a place where policy is made, merely executed.
The ministry has been busy all day trying to “support the president,” saying officials have been in meetings all day to work out measures in tune with President’s Roh anger.
Well, I hope to God the Foreign Ministry wasn’t involved in that letter.
The GNP, meanwhile, took some pot shots at the president’s less-than-subtle diplomatic approach to the Dokdo issue:
The main opposition Grand National Party (GNP) on Thursday expressed concern over President Roh Moo-hyun’s declaration of “diplomatic war” on Japan, saying a more “refined” approach is required.
“I cannot but wonder whether President Roh’s remarks are appropriate,” Rep. Park Geun-hye, chairwoman of the GNP, said during a meeting of party officeholders.
Park thinks Japan should be criticized for its “shameless” attempts to distort history, but she considers it inappropriate for the President to get embroiled in the diplomatic disputes, a party official told The Korea Times.
“It used to be the GNP had to urge the government to assert more active measures against Japan,” the official said on condition of anonymity. “But the ruling Uri Party and the government is now overreacting, forcing us ask them to calm down.”
OhMyNews (Korean) ran a run-down on the positions taken by various party representatives during a brunch hosted by Cheong Wa Dae on Thursday. Nothing particularly interesting.
The Japanese, meanwhile, seem to be responding to Roh’s declaration with public coolness and private indignation:
Japan has shrugged off an inflammatory “letter to the people” in which Korean President Roh Moo-hyun warned of a “diplomatic war” with the island country on Wednesday over renewed Japanese claims to Korea’s Dokdo Islets.
Avoiding direct mention of Roh’s comments, Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi Junichiro told a press conference that even if there were issues of conflict, other nations knew that the Japanese government and people had the wisdom and skills to overcome them. Reiterating language from earlier government statements responding to Korean anger, he said Tokyo and Seoul were unwavering in their commitment to developing a friendly, cooperative relationship in a future-oriented manner.
Now the anger:
But the Nikkei Shimbun reported Thursday that some Japanese government officials said the letter revealed President Roh’s weak point, namely that he is easily swayed by public opinion. It added Roh’s emotional language was “just like North Korea.” One Japanese Foreign Ministry official said he was “dumbfounded” by the president’s letter, and that it would be best to avoid a point-by-point response to it.
Some Japanese politicians were furious. In a morning joint session of the Liberal Democratic Party’s committee on foreign relations, some called for Japan to issue a strong message of its own. Democratic Party of Japan lawmaker Nishimura Shingo said Roh’s letter was tantamount to “ditching the Korea-Japan relationship.”
The Japanese also broke out the “ICJ question.” Yeah, right. Good luck with that.
Dokdo — where the fun never stops!
UPDATE: Curzon over at Coming Anarchy talks about Roh’s letter as well.
79 Comments
Found an English hagwon advertisement yesterday that read “Tokdo is Korean territory.” What the heck does this issue have to do with English education in Korea? It all comes down to childish and dangerous ultranationalism. All the childish untranaionalists will suddenly enroll their kids at this hagwon to somehow show support on this issue (nevermind the quality of the hagwon, it doesn’t matter if they learn English).And the hagwon will get more popular and rich.
Roh is doing the same as this advertisement. All Roh is doing is gaining popularity points from the childish ultranationalists in Korea ( a sizable voting block) at the expense of relations with Japan and looking like a North Korean wannabe to the rest of the world. The speech was so off the cuff he didn’t have time to communicate and align the speech with real policy with the Foreign Ministry. Even North Korea and its wacked out speeches are communicated and aligned with the Foriegn ministry showing the utter lack of forthought, and inexperience of Roh and his administration.
Korea would never support a Japanese security counsil seat so why should Japan pander to Korea when Korea (only one country of mid level power) will never vote yes on the issue?
Noolji
First I doubt Koizumi goes to the shrine to pay homage to class A war criminals. He has stated many times he goes there not as the Prime minister but as a private citizen for private reasons. I think it is much more likely he goes there to pay homage to a long lost relative or to the 100,000s of war dead that are not class A war criminals and who gave their lives for Japan in an honerable way.
“the anger that large parts of asia feels for japan really doesn??t matter to american folks. but then, asians aren??t jews, are they?”
The US was at war with BOTH countries during WWII and somehow let go of the hate and anger towards BOTH Germany and Japan. Most people in Europe have let go of their hate and anger towards Germany and have moved on to forge new and better relationships. Hopefully China and Korea will let go of their childish hate and anger to do the same. But you are right, American folks do not care about the hate mongerers in Asia, the few that do have concerns about Asia care about the Asians that want to forge a new and better future.
Roh is pandering to emotions of the public. It makes me sick. This is so irresponsible I don’t know how long Korea can get away with this kind of crap without some kind of major repercussion. This government is driving everybody away and is diplomatically isolating Korea without any friends left. The sad thing is, most of Koreans do not realize this. What a pity.
Unbelievable. They start making some cell phones and start acting all important. The South exhibiting the same delusional, strident self-important gene that makes the North so laughable - and pitiful.
Kimbob: “This government is driving everybody away and is diplomatically isolating Korea without any friends left. ”
Well, since when was Japan Korea’s friend?
Kimbob: “diplomatically isolating Korea without any friends left.”
). Korea, China and Russia all have said ‘No, no’ in some form when asked about Japan’s leadership position in UN.
Flagrantly wrong, and there are two reasons:
(1) It seems like you think this conflict only hurts Korea but puts Japan in an uncomfy spot as well. In dealing with North Korean abductees and its recent try out for a leadership position in UN all require support from neighbors such as Korea. As Roh said, there are some good times and there are some bad times in a diplomatic relationship, and that is inevitable (especially between Korea and Japan, whose ties have been interestingly twisted and turned throughout history). Both parties need and will come back for another try of friendship.
(2) If somebody gets isolated from its neighbors it is Japan. This time the Nipponese pissed of China by bringing up a Senkaku Day(http://news.joins.com/internat.....04011.html) (I wonder whose really the trouble here
(3)Kore a might be experiencing the start of a new role in North East Asian. The Korea-US relationship has clearly weakened, and Roh has declared Korea as a ‘balancer’ in NE Asian Politics. That means that Korea won’t be necessary Japan’s ally in certain issues in certain times. Korea, it seems, will try to balance Japan and rising China. Obviously that will rquire some extra steps from Korea.
In the end, I want you to ask what do you suggest Roh do? Do you want him to quietly accept Takeshima Day, Historic distortions and insolent comments? The rising of China and crumbling of North Korea call for changes in Korea’s position; and Roh, perhaps, is trying Korea to adapt into the newly emerging environment. You know, Im not really a proponent of Roh, but frankly there is something in that guy (who sometimes looks really dumb or ignorant) that keeps me from hating him, and that probly would be him pushing and ramming through these issues. Changes are always controversial, thats the way they are. For me, I want to sit back and watch a little more before I really take a stand.
There’s nothing more amusing than watching Korea play a pair of 3’s like it’s a straight flush.
Rule #1 in poker is never bluff beyond your bankroll. Japan is sitting on the fat stack and Korea is down to its last nickel, still going all in on every hand as if they have anything to gain or Japan has anything to lose.
And I absolutely LOVES the fact that Japanese government officials were comparing Roh’s tantrum to the similar illogical, meaningless emotional rants from North Koreans. HIGHFUCKINGLARIOUS and spot on.
The sad fact is, Roh will take it as a compliment to be compared with his brothers up North rather than the obvious slap in the face that it was.
they start making some cell phones and suddenly they’re important.’
your comment shows your ignorance. korea not important because of cell phones; it’s important because of the number 10. got it?
‘korea isolating itself…’ sa hwa dong aka kimbob
actually, japan is isolating itself in ne asia. first, piss the koreans off, then the chinese, and then, the russians. your point of view starts from sa hwa dong, baby.
‘*^%*%(^!’ hanminjok
why hasn’t he been banned?
Tarion — Your points are well taken. However, a couple of things to note. As for Japan needing regional support for the North Korea and UN issues, it would seem that Tokyo has written off getting support from either Seoul or Beijing, and if they haven’t, they should have. Regardless of whether you think such an attitude on the part of Seoul is justified or not, it does reduce Korea’s leverage over Japan.
As for “what Roh should do,” one thing he should definitely have done is discuss the matter with the Foreign Ministry before writing his letter. Or, for that matter, before giving his little speech on the East Asian alliance system. He’s making bombshell statements and nobody knows how to interpret them, because nobody except Roh knows that the hell they mean.
He also needs to realize that “having to do something” does not mean, well, you read the letter, didn’t you? I’m sorry, but there is no way you can define that letter as appropriate, especially for a head of state. And doubly so after the Unification Minister ripped Prime Minister Koizumi for being “rude” by referring to President Roh’s March 1 address as “???????.” Doing something means taking measures to strengthen your control of the territory in question, not doing your best as head of state to sound like the KCNA.
‘japan already written off seoul and beijing in it’s attempt for security council seat..’
but we know the us supports japan, a country whose leader pays homage to class a war criminals, a country that whitewashes its history, and a country that portrays itself as a victim of ww2. in other words, the anger that large parts of asia feels for japan really doesn’t matter to american folks. but then, asians aren’t jews, are they?
??*^%*%(^!?? hanminjok
why hasn??t he been banned?
Have an application in with the MIC do you? Ah the Korean way. Dealing with painful truths involves burying them or calling them racist. Such is the way to enlightenment for the narrow-minded.
Let me guess noolji, you fully support the MIC’s efforts to block pro-Japan sites, supported the blockage of pro-North sites, and supported the blockage of dangerous blogs during the beheading fiasco.
Old Korean proverb: If you close your eyes to the truth, it just might go away.
What else can the president of country to do when 99% of his constituents are anti-Japanese? Yes, no and absolutely no Korean loves Japanese Emperialists. And, in small part, he is also atoning for his role in 1990’s Fisherman Treaty with Japan which did not say anything about Dokdo.
He will get more anti-Japanese as he sees his popularity soars. He is back on the trail seeing his anti-Japanese songs and pushing the right buttons. He is the number one in the hit music chart.
“In the end, I want you to ask what do you suggest Roh do? Do you want him to quietly accept Takeshima Day, Historic distortions and insolent comments?”
Well that’s a start, and a good ideal. Shut his big mouth for a change. Roh is a leader of a country, not a man on the street who gives out personal opinions. He should act like one. Leader of a country has to weigh all the diplomatic costs/benefits, not pander to the public emotions. That’s the job of governments. What benefits does his actions bring Korea? Zippo, maybe other than satisfying the Korean public (for how long?).
Marmot: “it would seem that Tokyo has written off getting support from either Seoul or Beijing, and if they haven??t, they should have.”
I am not familiar with the idion ‘written off’. Could you (or somebody else) explain this to me?
Kimbob: “Well that??s a start, and a good ideal. Shut his big mouth for a change.”
Perhaps, about Dokdo/Takeshima. But not historic distortions. Not insolence. Don’t you realize that Japan is breeding a whole new generation who will venerate Imperial Japan? You will think Im overreacting, probably. But it is true that Japan is seeking a leadership position in UN/NE Asia and preparing to legalizing an expansion of its army. No, I’m not a hysterical person that thinks Japan will colonialize Korea again. But this new generation will be the one that will pass laws legalizing a Japanese military force under the pretext of rising China. After that, I dont think it is really science fiction to say Japanese will use military power to pressure Korea, and perhaps force us out of Dokdo. Same thing happened in the Faulkland Islands between Argentina and Great Britain. Military action might not always be so distant as you think.
Kimbob: “Roh is a leader of a country, not a man on the street who gives out personal opinions.”
Now, lets understand the facts before we discuss. Those opinions were NOT Roh’s personal beliefs. In fact, they respresent the opinion of majority in Korea.
And Kimbob, those remarks were not mere opinions. Roh has called for a new very strong diplomatic stand against Japan. The President has the right to have the final say in these kinds of issues; no matter what the Ministry of Foreign Relations says, or if it is right or wrong.
Kimbob: “What benefits does his actions bring Korea?”
It has a clear lucid benfit to Roh and his party: soaring popularity. Did his actions mirror only such benefits, or is he for real bringing another revolution? That is what I wait and see. Roh commented that this ‘war’ will be a ’sitzkrieg (????????)’. If he keeps his words, makes tangible and intelligant plans, and raises Korean diplomacy to a higher independancy, I will respect him. If he merely used this issue to increase his popularity, while bringing about economic consequences to companies/everyday people, I would feel justified to call him a ??????.
I think a strong answer towards Japan’s rude behavior was in need and inevitable. But Roh’s new letter is controversial to me. I hoped that Japan would apoligize in some way and issues will quiet down. But as Roh made this aggressive remarks, it would be even harder for the Japanese to ‘bow’.
Is this just an ephemeral low point of Korea-Japan’s diplomatic relationship? Or is it one of the early signs of Korea breaking off from Japan and the United States? We shall see.
Is there anything wrong with satisfying the Korean public? Should he satisfy the Japanese?
Rho is doing fine. He is representing the PEOPLE OF KOREA!
BTW, Kimbob, you are a broken record (keep repeating puny thoughts over and over and over and over…)
Shut the f** up! - Your words, not mine.
First, the shrine the Japanese leaders go to is for all Japan’s warriors throughout history. It is not a shrine just for the WWII figures. So, it seems stupid to me for Korea and China to use the shrine visits as one of the key reasons to hate Japan or believe it wants to return to the colonial past. The textbook issue is also not something that should be used to damage potential benefits today. NGOs should spearhead the textbook issue. Making it a central factor governmental policy making is just —- I don’t know how to describe it….
Basically, the continual focus on the past and using it as a contemporary geopolitical factor only makes sense if Japan really is heading toward becoming a renewed military threat to Korea, China, and others in Asian — if Japan is remilitarizing. I simply can’t see that as the case enough to warrant shoving Japan more fimly into the arms of the United States, but as an American, I say, “Thanks.”
Next, for some reason, I don’t see Roh as pandering to the people. I get the feeling he is a true believer. I’ve said this before in relation to the US-SK relationship, but it seems to me Roh is locked in a time warp. Or, probably better stated, he is fixated on the past.
And what sets him apart from the Korean people is that he seems willing to put his money where his mouth (or brain) is.
Look at some of the articles against him today. They are like, “Yes. Pres. Roh is absolutely correct about Japan trying to being x, y, and z, but should our government really be doing something about it?!”
Whether it is on the US bullying and semi-colonizing Korea, Japan remilitarizing, pro-Japanese collaborators, or even ‘North Korea ain’t so bad its just our right-winger’s propaganda’, Roh and his support party are actually putting into practice things I heard Korean adults say not too infrequently. That is a change, and it seems to be shaking Korea up. They aren’t used to moving on these ideas — not on the executive head of state level.
It’s kind of interesting to me to see how this plays out. It seems kind of hard to me for the public and social institutions like the press to really cut Roh up when they are saying, “Yes. We agree, but……..we just can’t afford to do that right now…..”
In some ways, Roh seems like President Bush. Both have shown a willingness to act, to act against significant pressure at home and abroad, based on certain core beliefs that they don’t allow themselves to get knocked off of.
I’m not sure if I should feed the trolls, but…
In response to Hanminjoke,
“There??s nothing more amusing than watching Korea play a pair of 3??s like it??s a straight flush. Rule #1 in poker is never bluff beyond your bankroll. Japan is sitting on the fat stack and Korea is down to its last nickel, still going all in on every hand as if they have anything to gain or Japan has anything to lose.”
My advice to you, if you ever find yourself playing Poker with No Moo Hyun and Kim Jong Il, don’t bring a lot of money. The old Poker proverb goes, “If you can’t recognize the biggest sucker at the table then…”
Whereas I can agree with you that there are indeed a lot of dumb people in Korea (if you sift through your crazy rants, yes there are some kernals of truths mixed in there) but if you think this is poor strategy to claim Dokdo… then truly you shouldn’t play Godori with Koreans.
Rho is doing fine. He is representing the PEOPLE OF KOREA!
He’s representing a segment of the population, but others were horrified by his letter.
“but others were horrified by his letter. ” - Plunge
Others? Be specific when you write next time. You don’t mean Koreans?
Both the Uri party and the Hannara are 100% behind in this effort to stop the Japanese from taking the island. If Japan takes Dokdo, Korean people will be so mad at both parties that they may elect Labor party(Korean communists) to lead the government. The U.S. will surely lose Korea then.
Do not worry about Rho. When a politician tough-talks, he is just bluffing. He is just ALL TALK. When a politician is silent, then you have to worry; He may be building the BOMB.
Tarion:
“But as Roh made this aggressive remarks, it would be even harder for the Japanese to ??bow??.”
Exactly. Which is exactly why he shouldn’t have made them. It’s called diplomacy, something I had hoped Roh would learn about as he’s been in office several years, but which, sadly, he still knows nothing about. I mean, real diplomacy, the kind that actually works, not the kind that the brothers up north use.
Kimbob:
“This government is driving everybody away and is diplomatically isolating Korea without any friends left.”
Tarion disputed this, and I dispute his dispute. Kimbob’s statement was not only talking about Dokdo. It was talking about a general trend, which is quite correct. Korea is alienating it’s old friends (read elsewhere of the new diplomat to the US’s, Hong Seok-hyun, surprise at the animosity to the ROK in the USA), and pulling closer and closer to it’s new “friends”, NK and China. Funny how it’s new friends were the ones who tried to annihilate it a mere 50 or so years ago. China is economically trying to overtake Korea. Cuturally, it’s trying to say it was never really it’s own people, just a subset of China. The North? What needs to be said about that relationship? “With friends like these…”
Tarion:
“Well, since when was Japan Korea??s friend?”
Didn’t you know? 2005 is the year of Korea-Japan friendship.
hyundai: I’m saying Koreans were horrified by the letter. This isn’t saying they don’t support defending Tokdo, they just think it was unpresidential. Of course, being unpresidential seems to be common with Roh.
Tarion I cannot believe that we’ve come to the point when we’re discussing if it will be a good ideal for Korea to go it all alone. Few years back, I would never have guessed we would be discussing this today. I would give Roh credit if he can back it up. Unfortunately S.Korea is not in the position to backup the president’s..shall we say, aspirations. Korea has to choose sides, so which side? Once again unfortunately Roh is taking S.Korea closer to China and N.Korea while slowly breaking off ties with the traditional allies. Tarion, Korea’s future lies with the US and Japan, not China and North Korea. Just look at all the free, democratic, prosperous nations of the OECD. They all have strong alliance ties with the democracies of US and Japan. Is this coincidence? I don’t think so. Why? Because S.Korea enjoyed the greatest peace and prosperity under the US tutalage. It’s stupid for Koreans to throw this all away. China’s current successes are a bubble built on sinking sand, it won’t last forever as it will sink under its own corruption. N.Korea will never reunify under S.Korean terms. If S.Korea values democracy, she cannot be standing side by side with undemocratic countries of China and N.Korea while distancing herself from the US.
Leadership in Korea has been a miserable failure. A good leadership has to be in control of the situations and do what is best for the country. It’s not always best to act on what’s popular with the public. The people who are in the position to influence ordinary Koreans have failed the people. Watching Korean TV news stations broadcasting “Tokdo’s our land” songs, I don’t know whether to shudder at the thought of propaganda, or to laugh and shake my head at such silly, cheesy, childish displays by what are supposed to be major news stations in a major country. It’s really sad to see how S,Korea still can’t get past the banana republic stage. Last time I looked, we’re in year 2005.
UsinKorea,
Roh is no Bush. Bush went to war because America was attacked, not because a prefectual government of a friendly country commemorated a event that happened 100 years ago.
Also, the textbook controversy is another ridiculous reason for Korea to risk friendly relations with Japan. One of the so-called distortions pointed out in the Japanese textbook is a statement that says that Japan’s claim on Takeshima (Tokdo) is disputed by Korea. Is that distortion or simple fact?
Korea and Japan have a fishing treaty which essentially makes Tokdo a non-issue since it allows the two countries to share the fishing grounds in the area without giving up their claims on the islets. It even states that Japanese fishing boats will not go within 12 miles of Tokdo. Japan has seemed satisfied with this negotiated stalement, but recently Korea has shown signs that she is not.
By making Tokdo a national park and printing Tokdo stamps, Korea forced Japan to remind the world that she also claims the islets. Japan had no choice in the matter since not protesting Korea’s moves would have allowed Korea to strengthen her claim on the islets. However, Japan did not go beyond verbal protests since that was all that was needed to maintain her claim. The fact that Korea is now trying to make an issue out of Japan’s 100-year-old claim to the islets shows that Korea is not satisfied with just having a fishing treaty. Maybe, it is Korea that is coveting the potential gas deposits in the area, not Japan?
++My advice to you, if you ever find yourself playing Poker with No Moo Hyun and Kim Jong Il, don??t bring a lot of money. The old Poker proverb goes, ?橫If you can??t recognize the biggest sucker at the table then?????++
If your premise starts with putting Roh and KJI on equal footing as far as poker prowess goes, you’re not even in the ballpark. KJI has proven time and time again that he knows how to bluff, manipulate, play opponents against each other, and remain unpredicatable and dangerous enough that the western world continues its failure of calling him on it. He may be a lunatic, but he knows how to play the game and for that any poker player (and every politician he’s encountered in the last 10 years) respects those abilities no matter what they think of him morally.
Roh is the complete opposite. Completely clueless strategically, even worse diplomatically, unable to see short-term v long-term interests and act accordingly, and absolutely ignorant of his own weaknesses. He IS the sucker at the Asian table but he just hasn’t realized it yet.
Christ, name me a single solid move he’s made since he’s been in office. It’s been 2 years of blunder after miscalculation after mixup after drawback after impeachment. He’s a political mess with no tact and less diplomatic skill or foresight.
++Whereas I can agree with you that there are indeed a lot of dumb people in Korea (if you sift through your crazy rants, yes there are some kernals of truths mixed in there)++
Wow, thanks for the compliment. I’d make a similar claim about your crazy rants, but they’re not memorable enough for me to make a judgment either way.
++but if you think this is poor strategy to claim Dokdo?? then truly you shouldn??t play Godori with Koreans.++
Claim Dokdo? That’s what you think Roh’s doing? They already claimed Dokdo 50 years ago, and there’s absolutely no benefit to reclaiming them in the froth-at-the-mouth manor they’ve chosen outside of getting on the good side of drooling, finger-slicing nationalists…and that’s not worth shit in comparison to their economic relationship with Japan.
I’ll let you in on a little secret: They already have Dokdo, and they’re not about to lose them because of a bill passed by overzealous morons looking for attention.
What he’s doing now, is letting his mouth write checks his ass can’t cash. He’s taking media-induced, overhyped, bullshit from a glorified city council and turning into the defining moment in a very valuable and very necessary relationship with the world’s second largest economic power a stone’s throw away.
There are a veritable buffet of negative consequences that could arise from damaging their relationship with Japan, but please enlighten me about what good can come of “claiming” something they already own and which is under absolutely no real threat from being taken?
Give me your best crazy rant about the positive strategic benefits. I’m waiting.
I have to agree with Hanminjoke and Kimbob. Roh and backers need to have in mind what is best for South Korea, and it doesn’t seem like they are doing so.
The fight to keep North Korea from collapsing has at least some foundation as in the national interest though I would choose a different route.
The Dokdo and textbooks and such as basis for foreign policy decision making is not so defendable.
It only makes sense if Japan really is moving to return to a pre-1945 mind-set. If South Korea is really convinced that is happening or is likely to happen in the next 50 years, then what Roh is doing makes sense.
That is what I’m afraid of for South Korea. That Roh and perhaps a good number of others growing into power in South Korea are true believers in the thoughts that Roh has put into practice —- pushing the US away because it is detrimental to South Korea and pushing Japan away because it looks like it is trying to become a hegemon again.
In short, it does Roh really believe it is in the nation’s best interest to do these things?
It is one thing to have a president who is pandering to the public or just says things without thinking.
It is a different thing if what we are seeing out of Roh and parts of the party that supports him is a sign of deep convictions and forethought.
And Bevers, that is what I meant. I’m not talking about justification in the Bush comparison. I am talking about both of them seeming to have the will to take a position based on conviction and sticking to it or acting on it despite how others might react.
I find this really sad. I support the Korean claim and continued possession of Tokdo, but the hysteria surrounding the issue is disturbing. When Foreign Minister Ban was still allowed to do his job, I felt that the Koreans were in the position to take the high ground - for example, opposing Masan’s claim to “Daemado” and calling for a measured response in general - but the President’s letter is excessively inflamatory and extremely undiplomatic.
The President, in spite of his so-called progressive image, is exploiting a dangerous brand of nationalism as recklessly as anyone who held the office before him. I suppose he hasn’t thought about - or doesn’t care about - the next wave of Koreans who will be fired up enough to chop off their fingers or set themselves on fire. Or the foreigners - Japanese or otherwise - who might find themselves getting stomped one night on the street. Or lost tourism revenue. Or CNN, BBC World, and others broadcasting clips that will likely horrify international viewers more than making them sympathetic to Korea’s position.
Of course taking advantage of Korean sentiment about Japan (also the US, and recently China too) is not only popular, but distracts folks from the economy, education (where the curriculum is not exactly bias free either), capital relocation, social welfare (specifically the lack of it), and other areas that the government could/should focus on. Easier to play up to the mob than do something constructive, I guess.
Anyway, a real disappointment overall. Whether it is fair or not, the Japanese leadership - and people - will still appear to be more diplomatic, sophisticated, and mature than Korea’s. I don’t think it has to be this way.
Speaking of Hakwons - my landlady came to show me a beautiful picture that her grand-daughter had colored. It depicted the island of Tokdo and a dragonfly. Evidently the children in pre-school listened to some song about a Tokdo Island Dragonfly and his life on a Korean island.
Evidently the children in pre-school listened to some song about a Tokdo Island Dragonfly and his life on a Korean island.
Political indoctrination of the young. Sounds like that little girl is being trained to be a finger mutilator.
I agree with Snow that Roh could be an alright guy - though obviously in way over his head - but this drumming up of nationalist fervor is both irresponsible and deliberate, in addition to being a diversion for the administration’s shortcomings. He should leave diplomacy to Ban Ki-moon and at least pretend to concentrate on domestic issues (preferably those other than elevating communist spies to sainthood and demonizing real and supposed Japanese collaborators and their families.)
i have a feeling he deliberately does this in order to divert peoples’ economic frustration. at least people feel happy and regain their pride with his statement for a while.
in my opinion, the economy here seems no way get better. only samsung and very few companies are doing relatively well, but due to won appreciation against dollar exports are declining or losing profit. (by the way, approx. 60% components of samsung cell phones are from japan, and majority of export models of hyundae cars are using japanese steel)
further, growing competition from china puts mid-small size business in difficulties. many people say it is as worse than the imf period. growth ratio is declining, unemployment rate is rising etc. etc.
what is a diplomat war anyway? It seems to me that the korean side wants to scare the jpnese by freaking out. I hope japan continuees to be the adult. Koera cant seem to stop being a child.
Shak -
I guess I will have to go back and examine her picture and see if it was “finger-painted”.
Sleeping Beauty, Tom Thumb, and Quasimodo were all talking one day. Sleeping Beauty said, “I believe myself to be the most beautiful girl in the world.”
Tom Thumb said, “I must be the smallest person in the world.”
Quasimodo said, “I absolutely have to be the ugliest person in the world.”
They decided to go to the Guinness Book of World Records to have their claims verified.
Sleeping Beauty went first and came out looking deliriously happy.
“It’s official, I am the most beautiful girl in the world.”
Tom Thumb went next and emerged triumphant, “I am officially the smallest person in the world.”
Sometime later, Quasimodo came out looking confused and simply stated, “Who the bloody hell is Roh Moo Hyun?”
Shak -
I guess I will have to go back and examine her picture and see if it was ?橫finger-painted??.
That was funny.
nooji: “but we know the us supports japan, a country whose leader pays homage to class a war criminals, a country that whitewashes its history, and a country that portrays itself as a victim of ww2. in other words, the anger that large parts of asia feels for japan really doesn??t matter to american folks. but then, asians aren??t jews, are they?”
Instead of whining about how well the Japanese look, we Koreans need to benchmark them to discover what we’re doing so wrong to continuosly come off looking like idiots!
So many of you guys talk about Roh pushing Japan away and so what? the number 2 economy in the world and blah, blah, blah. So what? How is Korea currently dependent upon Japan? What can Japan do for Korea?
There’s the talk of Korea shifting alliance towards NK and China, and guess what? that is the future for Korea. Ask any Korean, there’s no question on their mind whether the two koreas will unify in the future. It will happen. It’s only a matter of time. So getting closer to NK is actually the necessary step in accomplishing their goal.
For South Korea China is now the number one trading partner, yet diplomatically China has, thus far, played a very distant role in comparison to the current number two trading partner for Korea, USA. I think Roh has come to realize that Korea needs to rebalance the relative roles of each country. Consider China’s economy will continue to grow two, three, even four times the rate of US or other developed nations. And with the economic growth, her geopolitical powers will grow in tandem.
Geopolitical stuggle is coming to NE Asia and the world. Korea so happens to be the geographical center of that and Roh realizes that Korea is the center piece in which the greater powers needs to woo. Yes woo! because as he stated Korea will play the balacing role in NE Asia.
So Yes, he’s acting a bit like KJI up North, but that’s because he realized as KJI can get away it, so can he if he play his cards carefully.
Call it what you want about Roh being “in way over his head” but thus far he hasn’t lost his game. Follow his political career. he has bluffed, he has gambled, and he has managed to come out ahead, although he was the underdog every single time.
Further reason why Korea can make stronger demands to Japan is that the trade balance between the two counties have been such that Korea has always run a deficit. Which basically means that they have been net buyers, not sellers.
Japanese don’t buy korean, their banks and companies, in proportion to their economy and geological proximity, do not invest much in Korea. Japan is far more eager to open a FTA with korea then the other way around. So, Roh gave Japan the bird, which so happened to be what much of the koreans wanted.
Hanminjoke: You said about Roh “It??s been 2 years of blunder after miscalculation after mixup after drawback after impeachment. He??s a political mess with no tact and less diplomatic skill or foresight.”
I agree with you partially, but consider in the bigger picture of things his impeachment was actually what he needed in order to get his Uri party the majority in the parliament, a political base necessary for him to get some of his reform measures in place. Without it he would have been the lamest president that ever took office in Korea.
Another thing people need to consider is that Roh has brought democracy further than any other korean president thus far. Roh is the first Korean president to not use prosecution in order to threaten or coerce people to follow his measures.
Saying that to say what? I’m just saying that although Roh may often look “..clueless strategically, even worse diplomatically, unable to see short-term v long-term interests and act accordingly, and absolutely ignorant of his own weaknesses…” he actually is managing to do some good for Korea at the cost of how he may appear. Although I loathe Bush and his policies, I must say Roh shares much with Bush in that they both don’t care much for how others may feel about them, if they have a conviction of what needs to be done. They try to get it done. Even if they may look like a fool doing it. But look at KJI, only now is he starting to get some respect for his political acumen. In the 90’s he was not thought of seriously.
Watching nonesense from afar is very amusing and pehpaps puts a different spin on things. All readers should recall that Comrade Rho got elected on a populist-xenophobic mob pandering platform. That got him the votes he needed to get elected. Since then, he has tried to distance himself from his mob which has now largely turned against him.
Comrade Roh’s economic and diplomatic policies have been a disaster for Korea, leading to declining standards of living for the mob that elected him. It is pretty obvious that the mob is not going to stay quiet for long when they see their oppurtunities waning. I am sure the mob would prefer a hate big nose campaign but that really is not in the cards for now. Japan is a convenient target that can be used as a political scapegoat for Korea’s declining economic situation.
I presently have a Japanese friend visiting me and he is perplexed but what Korea is doing to itself. I explained to him that there is probably not a single person in Korea who would question what Comrade Roh is doing right now and that not one person in Korea could link Korea’s declining standard of living to the actions of any Korean. Nor will it ever change.
It is sad to see Korea declining to the position of an “also ran.” When I first went there in 1993 I loved the the optimism and “can do” attitude of the place. That has now degenerated into finger-pointing (and chopping) and blaming.
Korea as the pivotal hub of East Asia isn’t something I expect to see anytime soon, and unification is the reason why.
Koreans like to talk about how if they were one nation they’d be stronger than Japan, but they don’t actually believe it. If they did, they would not be looking to prevent unification with North Korea — and prevent unification is what they are more about today than unification. The driving force behind unification thought today is to avoid unification with a weak NK at all costs. Maybe strengthening NK will prolong the division forever, maybe it will some how win the hearts and minds of the Kim Jong Il regime and they’ll give up their power and the system that gives it to them. Right… But, that doesn’t matter, because what they want to do today is prevent unification.
And why not? Because unification as it is likely to happen, through a collapse of NK, will knock South Korea far down the economic ladder.
Which is exactly why South Korea needs Japan (and others). What can Japan do for Korea? Economic investment #1. #2 it can help rebuild NK and stabilize the Korean peninsula when NK collapses.
As for moving toward China, perhaps South Korea can triangulate between the US and China, but I doubt it. For one, it will take better efforts than what we see out of SK right now, that’s for sure!
It is more likely as China grows stronger (if it can fullfill anything like predicted) it will see less and less need to listen to South Korea. North Korea is already an albatross around its neck. SK can’t be the biggest invester in China. As China grows, it will compete in more and more in industries with SK.
What does SK have the China needs?
I admit it isn’t a clear cut case. China might decide it needs a strong relationship with South Korea. Maybe China will decide to square off against the US and its allies and demand allies of its own. I doubt it. I don’t think China is going to decide to buck the system that is leading to its prosperity even if it gets as big as some argue it will, and that is a big if.
Are all these factors what South Korea wants to bank on? It wants to burn bridges with Japan and the US and count on a “new lone super power China” as the savior?
There are way too many factors involved for SK to believe it can stand out and go it alone and grab a friend when necessary.
Excellent analysis from usainkorea, kimchipig and others. As for JdigK, here is my response. He wrote:
“Further reason why Korea can make stronger demands to Japan is that the trade balance between the two counties have been such that Korea has always run a deficit.”
That well describes Korea’s trade balance with the US. The US allowed Korea to take advantage of it to lift themselves up by their bootstraps rathre than attempt to make a profit off Korea. But the stability of the region assures benefits for the entire world that also benefits the US strategically. Korea too needs to learn to think strategically.
Korea has in fact obtained immeasurable economic benefits from Japan in the form of technology transfer and can continue to do so. Korea has also always looked abroad for economic bailouts due to the vulnerable structure of our economy, and Japan fits the bill there as well.
“Which basically means that they have been net buyers, not sellers.Japanese don??t buy korean, their banks and companies, in proportion to their economy and geological proximity, do not invest much in Korea.”
Considering the high standards of Japanese consumers, there is no real reason to buy Korean. This is no ominous government conspiracy but a simple fact of life. We simply have little to offer or entice Japan and the onus is ours, not theirs to rectify the situation.
I would like to see the investment figures between the two countries.
JdigK
i want to add a few aspects to support mizarv’s comment
trade unbalance between korea and japan.
as you said that korea has had trade deficit against japan almost all the time.
then i want to state that only 2 years ago many of japanese final products (means tv’s, pc’s, automobiles etc) were officially allowed to be imported into korea. so before that you did not see any toyota or honda in seoul nor toshiba notebook pc’s except some rich korean imports personally. (but even now korean consumers have to pay $10thou. more to buy honda than japan or the us due to higher import duty)
“Japan is far more eager to open a FTA with korea “-JdigK
it is wrong. i dont know much about agricultural aspct but generally speaking both countries dont have much agricultural products to export anyway. important thing is as i stated in my earlier post, what japanese exports to korea are more on components and materials with which korea makes cell phones, tv’s, cars to export. by fta, many components can be zero import duty, means korea can export their tv’s to the us with less cost. (by the way even now japanese impose practically no import duty for electronics related items already)
then jdigK might say, so what? korea can import from germany or the us instead of japan. but reality is there are many components that can only be imported from japan.
in my opinion, strrength of japan is not toyota cars or sony tv, but it has unique components or materials or equipment.
now, ipod (designed in the us and made mainly in china) is the no.1 mp3 player sold in japan more than sony or panasonic. so japanese consumers will buy products with good design and right marketing, not to mention the good quality regardless of where they are made.
in the mid. 70’s to 80’s many japanese companies has made investment into korea, just like they do into china now. what happen? many of them just withdrew mainly because of ;
1. harsh and irrational labor problems made the operation cost higher
2. korean partner “learned” a technology in a few years and dump a japanese partner
it’s not political. just economical reasons that japanese dont invest.
Roh is the first Korean president to not use prosecution in order to threaten or coerce people to follow his measures.-JDIGK
What about Roh never ending struggle to root out all the people who collaborated 60-100 years ago? Park Geun Hye would disagree with you Jdigk, about Roh not abusing power to obtain his reforms. I think this whole letter thing is just a simple ploy to make sure anybody who doest support rohs political agenda will be seen as pro-Japanese.
I state again, I think Roh is not just blowing smoke to cover his ass. I get the feeling he is a true believer.
I also wanted to point out the Garlic War of a couple of years ago with China (in relation to the talk of South Korea using China to further its interests as opposed to the US).
In the Garlic War, China gave us a hint it probably won’t accept the kind of stuff the US has for decades. Since the US considered SK vital to our national interest, it was willing to spend resources to develop SK and give SK a very favorable balance of trade. That type of relationship was carried over pretty much into the period of South Korean wealth even though the US bitched sometimes about the trade imbalance. We still don’t twist South Korea’s arm too much on trade issues.
China does not have any long recent history of being close to South Korea, and China’s government also enjoys not being the center of world focus like the US, and can use its position to apply trade restrictions the US couldn’t get away with much —- like the steel tarrifs Bush imposed that sent even conservative free traders against him.
In short, China can and did whack South Korea upside the head when South Korea tried to apply the type of moves it has against the US successfully. SK cut a deal on agricultural products - especially seafood and garlic - but when word got out and Korean society started marching in the streets, the government tried to back off, and that pissed China off, and China did something about it. It told SK that they were making X hundreds of millions more off China in areas like chemical products and cell phones, but SK wanted to bitch about garlic and agricultural products it had already made a deal on. So it slapped heavy duties on Korean imports until South Korea backed down.
That is how I remember it.
It was a very heavy handed approach by China.
Why? Because China didn’t believe it had too much to lose to insult Korea by slapping it around. It might like South Korea as a trading partner, but how far does China want to make a special relationship with South Korea?
About Japan-Korean trade: Most of the products coming from Japan to Korea and re-exported anyway as components in Korean products, so slapping some sort of punitive tariff on Japanese goods would just reduce Korean competitiveness abroad.
takeshima: “What about Roh never ending struggle to root out all the people who collaborated 60-100 years ago? Park Geun Hye would disagree with you Jdigk, about Roh not abusing power to obtain his reforms.”
That is not prosecutorial abuse and coercion in order to get his way, he is using the democratic system and legislation to expose what he feels as unjust profiting by the japanese collabrators who now tries to hide their past and fabricate themselves as korean patriots, or worse korean freedon fighters. You might say what good can it do now, 60 to 100 years later? It brings a closure to the issue. Only after closure can Korea truly focus on its development.
koreans are not Chinese, and Koreans are not Japanese, they like most cultures have characteristics and traits that set them apart. You mights say why do Koreans act so emotional, and care so much about things of the past and textbook issues. Because they do. They care, and they are not ashamed to let people know they care. I’m not say that chopping digits off and immolation is the right way to go about venting frustrations, but it shows just how much they actually do care.
Often it’s very easy to write it off as just some lunatic in need of some prozac, but some how I don’t thinks so. They are aware, and care for their being; nevertheless, they feel that their need to rectify and vindicate an issue is so strong that they are even willing to lose a finger in order to bring attention to the issue.
I’m not saying that it’s the best or even a good method. However, I see it as a form of terroristic tactic, employed by the weaker party in a conflict. Moral issues aside, terrorism is an effective tactic when faced with an overwhelming opponent because it keeps the issue alive.
As for unification issue with NK. You’re right SK is doing all it can to prevent a sudden unification with a weak NK at all costs. That is the prudent thing to do for SK. SK needs to help NK so that the eventual unification is not so costly.
As for Japan Response for mizarv, usinkorea, and mae:
“Korea has in fact obtained immeasurable economic benefits from Japan in the form of technology transfer and can continue to do so.” -mizarv
Yes Korea is, so?!? Sk pays for for the technology and due to that SK trade deficit is created. Are you suggesting that if there’s political tensions between SK and Japan, Japanese firms will raise it’s prices on its licenses and intermediate goods? WTO specifically forbids any form of discrimination between its member states.
“Considering the high standards of Japanese consumers, there is no real reason to buy Korean.” -mizarv
Again you’re right. They don’t buy korean, and until Korea brings up the quality of its products, korea will not be able to make much headway in Japanese markets. Thus, again no need to hold back politically. Korea dosen’t have much to lose.
“what japanese exports to korea are more on components and materials with which korea makes cell phones, tv??s, cars to export. by fta, many components can be zero import duty, means korea can export their tv??s to the us with less cost. (by the way even now japanese impose practically no import duty for electronics related items already)” -mae
Mae, as you stated above Korea applies the import duties not Japan. It’s the action of the Korean gov’t, they have the control to apply or reduce the tariffs. The tariffs are applied on purpose by the Korean gov’t in order to protect the Korean domestic firms and give the domestic firms a price edge. What a FTA will do is that it will eliminate the tarrifs so that Japanese products will come into korea at a cheaper rate, thereby sell more.
Japan on the otherhand, already applies near no tariffs, so it doesn’t change the price competitiveness of korean products. Thus, Japan stands to gain more initially from an FTA. Although I must add that I personally favor the FTA, and that it will lead to greater long term benefits for Korea and foster faster development for the Korean firms, it does not mean Japan sees it that way. To them FTA will lead to greater revenue for its firms.
On the agricultural sector Korea can possibly benefit initially; however, I doubt that too. Frankly, I think the Japanese are more concerned with quality than price. They opened the market for rice yet the imports which are much cheaper cannot make headway because its quality is not as good as the japanese rice. Japan produces excellent quality goods. Even its agricultural products. Rice , beef, Yes even beef. Korea boasts about quality of “han-woo” their Korean beef. but frankly, it’s no where near as good as the steaks I’ve had in Japan. Yes, it costs more, but its that much better.
So saying that to say what? Because of the current price and quality factors Japan stands to gain more through free trade. Thus, more eager to pursue an FTA. And with that in mind, try to squeeze more concessions from Japan. Especially if Japan wants to establish hegemony in Asia, which basically means contention with growing power of China, Japan stands a better shot if it had the third biggest economy, i.e. korea, on its side. Rho realizes this and the value of it. So he wants a bigger payoff.
“What can Japan do for Korea? Economic investment #1. #2 it can help rebuild NK and stabilize the Korean peninsula when NK collapses. “-usinkorea
As to your first: Economic investment #1, mae above stated about the investment conditions. I agree with her its purely economical reasons and not political for lack of investment in Korea. And I don’t see Japan having a change of views on that considering the geographical proximity and the availability of cheap labor in China.
As for your your #2 reason, I agree that Japan can help to rebuild and stabilize the Korean peninsula, but according to the Korean time schedule that’s way way down the line. To Korea that’s far off in the future if they could help it. So until then Korea has time to work on Japan, and establish itself more as a legitimate partner to be treated with respect and not as a struggling third world country that it once occupied and abused.
Mae, I want to add a comment
(but even now korean consumers have to pay $10thou. more to buy honda than japan or the us due to higher import duty)- Mae
korea’s tariff on automobiles is only 8% and has been for quite a while. the reason for Hondas and Toyotas costing so much in Korea is not so much due to import duties but rather because of the marketing strategy of the japanese firms and for that matter most imported cars in Korea. They feel that they can benefit more by maintaining brand value and high mark ups. And it’s succeeding, the import sales are growing at double digits. why should the importers sell their cars at a low cost when it still sells well at a higher price?
Maybe it’s another reason for the Korean gov’t to ratchet up the anti-japanese sentiments. this could stem the japanese import sales… but I don’t really see it to be so shortsighted as that.
As for some of the economical comments made by otheres before about how since Roh took office the korean economy has done so poorly. Much of it was due to the korean consumer credit fiasco, a very short sighted policy put into effect by Roh’s predecessor. With some many people having credit problems the domestic economy has no choice but to slow down. another element I want to add is that the economy tends to be cyclical and regardless of governmental measures it will go up and down, albeit with the right policies it cycle can be a little smoother; nevertheless, still up and down.
jdigk,
let me state that (i did before but anyway) i am a japanese currently work in a trading business in korea for a few years.
then i respect some of your analysis on my very vague comments on some of the aspects i see in korea.
a fta between korea and japan. granted your comment is right, but still, lets face it. korea has only 48 mil. people. considering wider gap between rich and poor in recent years here, japanse products are not so well sold even if a fta is in effect because they are expensive.
correct me if i am wrong that i thought there was a luxury product tax of some kind in korea too in addtion to 8% that drives price of expensive cars or golf clubs so much expensive here.
in terms of quantity, japan rather has a fta with china asap than korea;
because japanese only thinks samsung, lg or hyundae are potential marketing target, but in china there are sooooo many more.
shakuhachi,
Who said slap some punitive tariff on japanese goods? There’s no one pushing for punitive or otherwise taxes. Furthermore, Roh’s focus is not on economical confrontation, it’s political. Roh just wants Korea to be respected and acknowledged for its importance in the NE Asia.
Even now people are deriding Roh for his comments, why? Because Korea does not get the recognition as it deserves as the 14th(according to GDP)economy in the world. Korea is surrounded by major super powers on all sides and it grew incredibly, so its easy for others to maintain the image of the past korea. Nevertheless, Roh more akin to the average Korean, is showing the korean fighting spirit, by letting the rest of the world know that it will not sit by and let the super powers do as they wish with korea.
Many of you guys will argue that what Roh is doing is not prudent, and I agree. But Korea’s current breakneck speed rise and development was not through prudent actions. According to the classical economists in the 60’s the prudent thing for korea to do was develop is agriculture and not the high tech industries. Korea’s strong point is not prudency, it has too much energy. So even with diplomacy, it appears Korea is not prudent.
Many guys mention about Geopolitical strategy, and it’s just that. Roh is re-evaluating korea’s worth in this NE Asian Chess board. US being US wants to maintain its strong influence in all parts of the globe. China is growing, and no one knows how big they will grow, Japan the once ecomomic super power of the East is waning due to China’s explosive growth. And what’s dead smack in the center of all this? Korea. Thus, Korea’s worth goes up even higher than their economic or historical worth. Korea is the pivot that balances the powers. Roh sees this and he is letting the players know that he knows its worth. Especially Japan, because she is the one that’s waning in light of China’s growth. Japan can have a strong alley in Korea, but it’s got to do the right thing. Don’t play with korea’s emotions, cause it’s very volitile.
mae: “japanse products are not so well sold even if a fta is in effect because they are expensive.”
If that’s the case for Korea then more so for China. The reason why Korea is able to export so much to China is not so much because the korean products are better than Japan’s but rather because they are cheaper, and represent more of a value for the money.
Mae
“correct me if i am wrong that i thought there was a luxury product tax of some kind in korea too in addtion to 8% that drives price of expensive cars or golf clubs so much expensive here” -Mae
Any additional charges there are must be applied evenly through all products domestic and imports. Otherwise, again its a violation of the WTO agreement. So yes, there probably are additional taxes on luxury goods, but they cannot single out the imports, they must also apply it to the domestic products.
Hey JdigK, it’s an 8 percent tariff, not tax, so it’s not applied to domestic goods. Also, your point about Korea’s rise being caused by “imprudence” is a bit of a simplification, the chaebol carefully patterned themselves on Japanese and US corporate models, but definitely, S. Koreans can be proud of the nation’s amazing growth. The reason some posters are concerned about Roh’s recent comments is that he’s made a mountain out of an islet, because a “diplomatic war” with Japan (or any other country) does not serve Korea’s interests. As for being a “stabilizer” in the region (Roh’s term), what, with all due respect, does Korea have to offer that makes it so central to the future of all the other countries? Japan is hardly “waning” as you put it, China’s growth in many ways threatens Korea, and the US, it’s not a good idea to blow off the US. In fact Korea needs the support of its neighbors more than they need Korea’s support. I don’t envy Roh in trying to juggle all this, and I wish the best for Korea, but he’s dropping the ball every time. Korea really could use some leadership that IS prudent.
As Michael mentionned, the 8% tax rate is a tariff (????), calculated on the CIF price (item value + transportation fee). On top of that, other taxes apply (each apply to the accrued amount). I don’t have the strength to make the research now for automobiles, but I can tell you that for wine, the import tax is 30%, but other taxes apply (education tax, another I forget, and then VAT), building up the tax burden to 60% +/-.
Not to mention it was just 3 years ago that Japanese cars were illegal. Because of a lot of arm twisting Korea is getting better but it needs to do a whole lot better than it is now. It just blows my mind that I can buy many Korean products cheaper in the U.S. than in Korea. The tariffs allow Korean companies to jack up domestic prices and rip of the consumers. Lets not even get into agricultural products like rice.
Lets not even get into agricultural products like rice.
Or, closer to my wallet heart, wines and spirits: Chile has an FTA with Korea, allowing them to export their goods at reduced tax rates (10% for wine), or even no tax. Sigh!
The markup on wine in Seoul is far worse than in my former hood, L.A.–and when I was in Paris last year, the wine you could buy for just a few euros…I could cry just thinking about it…
Michael,
I agree with much of what you said including the oversimplifications, but in this forum it seems unavoidable, I certainly cannot mention all relevent facts.
The reason why I see Korea as central is the historical and geogrphical location of korea. Korea is a buffer state between China and Japan. We’ve not much dwelled on the military aspects of all this, but in terms of security it’s good to have another state between you and the opposing state. For US, it’s in their interest to maintain a military base in Korea to check not so much NK’s aggression but rather the growing China’s. As for Japan and her security, Korea is a buffer and has been for as long as the three countries existed. I believe one of the main reason why Japan has never come under China’s rule is because korea has always been there as a buffer. The only time that I could recall when Japan was threatened by China was when the Mongolians where in power in China. And in that case korea was the launching pad for invasion. Japan survived it only due to a severe storm wiping out the invading forces.
As for the other way around, korea is the gateway into China. When Japan invaded China again it was through Korea. During all military aggressions between the three countries, Korea was the buffer they had to go through in order get to the other.
I’m not suggesting that a war between states are imminent, but I believe for security purposes Korea does play a central role in NE Asia due to its geographical location.
As for your comment about Korean leadership, I wouldn’t agree with you more when you said, “Korea really could use some leadership that IS prudent. ” But alas, it is not so. I wonder when Korea will mature enough for it to start electing leaders that are prudent. But Korea is not there yet, politically. A prudent person does not get elected in Korea, and I suspect it’s due to Korea’s too sudden development. Democracy and Liberty requires corresponding level of maturity and responsibility, and korea just did not have that time to develop in that area.
So why do I defend Roh? Because considering the shitty hand that he’s got, and the level of his constituents. I think I could understand his position. Plus, the people on this board did nothing but blast the guy, so I thought I might play the Devil’s advocate raise some issues.
By the way dda,
tax on wines were at 80% before (1999). It’s down to 30% only after the issue went to WTO for Korea charging soju, a korean rice wine, at a much cheaper rate.
And yes to all you other guys, Korea sucks in that the general prices are higher for much of the same products else where.
JdigK- soju, a korean rice wine
Wine is fermented
soju is distilled then water is added.
Soju is a spirit and it was challenged at the WTO as a spirit.
“andong soju” and tradition soju can be fermented. But about 99% of soju that people drink is dilluted soju.
I believe Korea’s strategic security value is much less than people consider. If China can’t invade and take over Taiwan because of the difficults in taking an island and the nature of the technology of defense today, what are the chances they’re going to take on Japan in the foreseeable future?
I also can’t imagine the US being stupid enough to get into a land war with China. I really don’t see South Korea as being a better place for the US to base operations for any theoretically military action against China. Politics can’t be ignored. South Korea has shown clearly it is virtually impossible to imagine they would allow the US to use its bases in Korea against China. Troops in Korea seem to me more vulnerable to attack by China either directly or through North Korea.
But based soely in Japan, the US can use its superior air and naval forces and defend itself much better while striking at China in any theoretical military clash.
I would think this is even more true given today’s mlitary. But, it was what our military planners decided way back in the late 1940s when they drew the line of defense to include Japan but exclude South Korea. Truman changed that.
JdigK–good point about the “buffer state” role, but if I can figure out what Roh means by regional “stabilizer” (or “balancer” as Yonhap has it) it sounds more active or even proactive than just being “the nation in the middle.” I also give Roh a hard time, but only because I think S. Korea deserves better–I hear you on the “too sudden development.” With China and the US tugging on it, S. Korea will have to mature quickly, though….
By the way dda,
tax on wines were at 80% before (1999). It??s down to 30% only after the issue went to WTO for Korea charging soju, a korean rice wine, at a much cheaper rate.
Please, when you don’t know what you are talking about, check valid sources first… ???, as the Chinese characters tell us, is a distilled alcoholic beverage (a process that involves boiling grain or other yucky stuff in water), whereas wine is a fermented beverage. Wine has an HS-code of 2204xxxx, whereas soju, like whiskeys, brandies and other cognacs fall under the 2208 HS-code.
It does happen that 2208-class beverages were taxed at 80%, and that tax was progressively harmonized down to 30%, like the one for wine. Actually, the tax rates for other alcoholic beverages (like beer, which used to be 120%) to have all been harmonized: HS codes 20020101 to 20051231 are all 30%. Of course, as I mentioned before, this is applied only to imported goods, and other taxes apply on top of that (Liquor Tax, Education Tax and VAT).
dda and takeshima,
yeah sure crucify me on semantics over ‘wine’ and ‘distilled alcoholic beverages’, but it still does not negate the fact that soju was the reason why the import duties on wine and other alcoholic beverages came down to 30% through WTO(final) rulings on 1999.
like i’m going to go out of my way to state: soju, a korean distilled alcoholic beverage which has been diluted by water.
“I also can??t imagine the US being stupid enough to get into a land war with China. ” -usinkorea
and after “..the US can use its superior air and naval forces..” US will just sit in Japan’s base and don’t try to occupy China. Like a whole lot of sense that does.
JdigK-like i??m going to go out of my way to state: soju, a korean distilled alcoholic beverage which has been diluted by water
You can do as you please, I was just correcting you because lots of people falsely think that Soju is Korean wine or Korean sake, and its not. Soju is most similar to dilluted vodka with aspetaine. So if you want to educate people what soju is you can say.
Soju: Korean grain alchol
Soju: dilluted vodka
Soju: A Korean spirit
Soju: Cheep bottle of shit
Soju: Cheep bottle of shit
Well, if you really want to educate then it’s “a cheap bottle of shit”
Yes Jdigk, I agree, soju is a cheap bottle of shit. Interesting how Koreans like it so much. Do you think they like it because it??s cheap or shit? Do you like soju jdigk? Personally I don??t like the stuff. I prefer wine or sake
Koreans like it because it has become an intrinsic part of their culture, acquired while rushing to develop their economy.
I can’t stand the stuff, but it appears to be a necessity in getting close to the koreans.
I actually like the history of the Westerners and Soju. Soju was pretty much ignored in Seoul during the Late Choson period (please note - this means the last thirty years of the Choson period 1880-1910) and was generally a drink of the people of the north especially Pyoungyang.
One British visitor noted that Koreans drank a lot and he wanted to determ