Police in Seodaemun-gu arrested two unqualified English teachers, including a 38-year-old Canadian, for assaulting and hospitalizing a Seoul resident on March 12. The two were dead drunk when they got into a 4:00 a.m. street fight with a 30-year-old Mr. Lee in Changcheong-dong. Mr. Lee was hospitalized with a broken jaw and knocked-out teeth.
A police investigation revealed that the two came to Korea on tourist visas and had been illegally working as English conversation teachers from 2003. Accordingly, police also booked (without detention) the hagwon owner and another individual for illegally hiring the pair.
158 Comments
violent canadians beating up innocent koreans. This is just like how the angry japanese try and steal takashima. And the chinese try and steal history. and the americans started the korean war…
june, ever been to a college party? a frat house or even a sorority house? parties there can spill over into the street and you have… ta dah! … people heavily drunk on the street in north america. sometimes harassing people walking by.
and in vegas, it happens all over the place.
the big dif, sis, is that ‘entertainment’ places are sparsely located in the u.s., but in korea they’re tucked into so many areas.
that plus korean penchant for icha, samcha, sacha, ocha, which makes them go outside for a bit.
whoops… that previous comment was supposed to be from me. i was using bo’s desktop and didn’t realise he was logged in. didn’t realise he ever logged in here.
‘violent canadians beating up innocent koreans. This is just like how the angry japanese try and steal takashima. And the chinese try and steal history. and the americans started the korean war?? ‘
welcome to dude’s sushi bar. only thing on the menu: red herring.
Sounds like the police did the right thing (although there’s no mention above whether charges were brought against the two for working illegally in the ROK).
But is this news? It’s information, of course, but one wonders why, out of all the street brawls that occur, was this one chosen to be reported on? After all, it’s doubtful that the reporter from NoCut News actually observed it firsthand, so why does this one stand out? Is it perhaps simply because they were ?????? ?????? It appears that way.
‘News’pieces such as this merely cloud the picture. We are in no great danger from these fellows, or from ‘foreigner teachers’, as much as news hacks might try to stir the pot.
If you’d like something more substantive, the Korean National Statistical Office operates an excellent website (http://www.nso.go.kr/eng/), and one may request information from them easily; n my experience, they are really helpul. Their data indicate that non-Koreans are less likely to commit crimes than are Koreans. Why isn’t that being reported? Isn’t that news?
BTW, we’ve all learned that foreigner teachers (and maybe a few other people0 like sexy pictures posted on websites, but there haven’t been any around here for a while. What’s up with that?
I think this further represents a paradigm shift on behalf of the Korean authorities–a testament to the power of popular media on influencing policy, whether it is actual or perceived. Rather than focusing on crime of USFK, they seem to be focusing on Japanese tourists and English teachers.
teachers… illegal?! and… canadian?! and… drinking?! and… fighting?!
i am so shocked i cannot typ
Jeez, just when I thought the Japanese had finally taken the heat off of us!
Now the momentum swings the other way… back and forth we go..
No doubt our incarcerated heros meant no harm, just up to a little fun and this is all a big missunderstanding. Considering the fights in itaewon that do not make it into the news the only thing newsworthy about this is the fact that they were not qualified to teach English here-not that they busted Mr Lee’s jaw in a fight-that could have been excused on the grounds of being druken. The forged qualifications has caused such a stir that at the company I work for the HR dept is using an American company to verify degrees earned from American and Canadian universities for people they hired years ago in an effort to weed them out and avoid any embarassing headlines in the paper. I guess Korean HR practices don’t iinclude due dilligence…
Due diligence? They were employed by a hagwon. Have you had your coffee yet this morning, James?
Stupid is as stupid does. Newsworthy, probably not. But they do deserve some sort of punishment for assault and then to get deported for illegal teaching.
I??ve never seen anyone heavily drunk on the street in North America. When foreigners came to Korea, they seemed to pick up and learn bad habit from Koreans. But most Koreans don??t think that drinking heavily (and fist fighting) is a cool thing to do, although it is somewhat accepted in society (i.e. no police arrest for heavily drinking).
Despite what you think of us Canadians not being violent or opposing war, you are just missing out on our master plan. Have you looked around to see how many Canadians are amongst you. We are lurking, waiting… Watch out.
gumbi’s right! i just looked at a map and i saw that ontario, ca, has infiltrated southern california!
Don’t be a fool all your life nora sumi park; the Americans did not start the korean war. The koreans started it long ago by not fighting and letting the Japanese take over. One thing led to another, etc. but don’t blame the Americans for koreans problems.
Hey Ben,
Looks like someone needs to read more carefully–and by that I mean the entire thread of comments. LOL.
I’m appalled to hear about it. As a Canadian, it pisses me off that this happened at a time like this. Am I angry it was reported? Does this inspire me to come up with some smart remark about Dokdo? No. My first reaction is that I’d like to bitch slap the two retards who did it. They sound like real winners! Real quality people whom as a parent I would just love to have teaching my children. ESL in Korea truly is and has become SLEAZY. Korean hogwan directors knew it first, waygooks found out second, and now, finally, the parents know. So why is everyone so shocked that it has finally hit news stands? I’m surprised it has taken this long. Korea is utopia afterall, and I guess it amazes me that the corruption and lack of professionalism in the ESL market wasn’t pinpointed sooner. It’s not like Korean’s have many other problems to distract themselves with. So many scapegoats, so little time. None the less, the fewer asshole foreignors drunk on the streets of Seoul the better. I’ve been one myself, but I’ve never beaten anyone within inches of their lives and I try hard not to pee on stuff.
just a question…….is there any mention of who actually started the fight?
It shouldn’t have reported. But let’s put this into perspective. It was a 10 line news blurb on the back of the Internet news, not a major headline blaring. Not even close. After all the things that have been happening around here, I think a lot of poeple are on the edge and are paranoid at every little small things.
The jaw breaking is not how the stories usually go. I would think that gave the item more news worthyness. A broken jaw is pretty bad.
Usually when you read about a story like this, you also hear how the victim has to be hospitalized for “two weeks” or something like that. It was always the same amount of time. So I finally got around to asking, and a Korean was able to tell me that it has legal ramifications — I think for pain and suffering purposes, but possibly for criminal court too.
This time, however, it sounds like the guy got hurt seriously.
The only other thing that pops to mind is that I don’t think any of the Irish expats in the brawl near Chusok last year or the year before, some of whom were shot in the head with gas guns by the the rent a cops, were taken to the hospital and treated or held when they did go themselves. But I could have missed that one. Somehow a group of some 15 or so Irish expats in a brawl with perhaps a dozen over zealous security people and a manager with a bad attitude didn’t find its way into the big print media.
Sorta gotta agree with Spiffy, about smacking the two ‘tards that did it. I do think it’s a good sign that the hagwon owner is getting punished for hiring illegals though.
Lets wait a while before drawing conclusions about this. Although undoubtedly guilty of breaking visa regulations about working in Korea, they still havent had their day in court. There may be mitigating circumstances.
First things first, many Canadians, especially on the West Coast, are violent. My home town of Port Coquitlam felt far less safe to me than downtown Toronto–despite the fact that many people were incredibly drunk in public in both places.
I’ve posted before on the prejudice against English teachers, but this is indeed reportable news. First, it was apparently a two-on-one. It was an assault, not a fair fight. Second, the man suffered a broken jaw, and who knows what else. They injured him. Third, both were working in the country illegally. They’ve gone and made things hard on the rest of us just when things were seeming to smooth out a bit. I say throw the book at the two Canadian ****ers.
usinkorea, you mean the one with the irish people in the bar at closing time who were all calmly and peacefully leaving the place when they were suddenly attacked by the dozen or so weapons-wielding ganster-turned-security-guards?
yeah, I got the email. at first i thought it was ghost-written by someone from ohmynews.
Did this happen on St. Patrick’s day? You know, when all the fake Irishmen vomit up green beer?
I remember riding around Ottawa on my bicycle when all the bars were closing after the big green party day about 15 years ago (yipes) and there were fights outside of all the bars.
There is a redneck, I’ll punch you out culture going strong across most of Canada. It seems that it gets imported into Seoul from time to time.
I always wonder about the words unqualified English teachers… were these men doing their job everyday? Did their students learn anything..?
Sure a degree is needed to work in this country but a degree doesn’t make you a qualified conversation teacher… I believe that the schools and this country should be more worried about the teacher’s work history… and references.
Hogwans will have to worry about the quality of their teachers as long as they pay them the same wage as a convention clerk back home.
They want a white collar worker for the price of a blue collar worker… and then try to work them to death.
you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
a college degree doesn’t make you unqualified, but at least from a legal perspective, a lack of a degree makes you unqualified.
and that’s what we’ve been calling them.
maybe we can call them what we would in california: undocumented workers. or, if wetback sounds too derisive, whitebacks.
of course it took two white guys to take one korean, those koreans dudes are tough stuff. after watching korean men kick the crap out of whiteys on all the korean dramas, i’d never mess with one of them without backup…and maybe a baseball bat. or maybe its just korean actors who we ????????? should fear.
hahahaha
i like the ad where the dude is getting his ass kicked by a huge black dude
and by teh power of his cell phone
he digs down deep and then pummels the black guy with his taekwon do kicks
dae han minguk!!!!
A police investigation revealed that the two came to Korea on tourist visas and had been illegally working as English conversation teachers from 2003. Accordingly, police also booked (without detention) the hagwon owner and another individual for illegally hiring the pair.
This is significant in that it shows that the incident is not so much an act of racism or xenophobia, but it is a message to Korean employers and pimps (for lack of a better term) of foreign workers that they will be held accountable for their actions.
Japan just passed a law requiring foriegners have two years’ experience or schooling prior to working in Japan. Tourist visas won’t cut it anymore. Originally meant to fight prostitution and human trafficking, the law also applies to teachers and other professionals. Could Korea use a similar law?
Here is a link to the review of the Irish Incident.
http://www.areastudies.org/usi.....index2.htm
It really is one of the unavoidable instances Korea can’t get away from when it comes to a discussion of standards and practices.
In the current story, we have two foreign illegal language instructors who broke a guy’s jaw and put him in the hospital (for real), it is news material for the papers.
Fine. The broken jaw is the key element for me. But about every 8 months or so, you also find a story or two involving a GI in a regular street confrontation, and the stories are always the same. Some of them are almost generic in nature — 2 soldiers, Korean man, fight, good citizens rescue, fleeing, good citizens catching, hold for police, Korean man in hospital “for 2 weeks,” GIs must go to jail.
News worthy? Fine it is.
But, then you get an event like the Irish story. A large number of expats out drinking in entertainment section. Clash with large group of Korean security guards. Gas gun being used. People bleeding from the head. Street fight with batons.
No news.
Only covered on (I believe) the internet source that doesn’t reach the kind of people the Herald or Times news groups do.
Even though a gas gun was used which isn’t too common in Korea. But…
No Irish arrested. No Koreans arrested. End of story nobody but the expat community hears about.
Korea gets to have its cake and eat it too……
It’s pretty shameful to hear about this crap being a Canadian myself and all. I do agree with the various posters asking for revamping the requirements for working in Korea teaching English. This whole problem has been caused from top down.
Unfortunately the whole system — from the pay structure, to hagwans willing to hire illegally, lack of regulations on hagwans, etc. — does attract its share of undesirable types to Korea to teach English…illegally or legally.
btw…about the story at the Irish pub…excuse my ignorance, but what’s a “gas gun?”
Here is a link I found on google for a type of gas gun in Korea, but it isn’t the kind I remember seeing apartment security people carrying -
http://global.kita.net/marketi.....d=C080709#
Here is the one of the quotes from the review I did — “The bouncers started hitting the Irish with clubs, spraying the area with pepper spray and shooting the Irish with a canister gun of some sort. About twenty of us hit the ground when we heard the first wave of gun fire. One of the Irish was shot in the head. ”
This is from another source which interviewed a waitress at the clud –
Our eyewitness wisely chose to stay inside, but was able to see a little of what happened next. ?橫I went over to the balcony, and saw two or three groups of people fighting, and the security men shooting their gas guns,?? she said.”
A gas gun can be of different types - givnig different amounts of velocity to different sized projectiles. The basic idea is that they are powered from pressurized gas containers rather than black powder. They can be as simple as pellet guns a young kid might use to much more serious types. Paintball guns use large gas canisters. In fact, police and other security agencies for things like the G8 conference in the US this year use paintball type gas guns to fire different types of balls from very hard ones to break car windshields to different types of pepper spray balls that hurt like hell but explode on contact and keep you hurting longer as you suck up pepper gas into your nose, mouth and eyes. I think pepper spray canisters are better, but you have to be in close contact to use them and they have a significant blow back factor causing you to gas yourself as well as the intended victim. Those high veolocity paintball guns used for crowd control work well from a distance and close range. They hurt like hell. But in the US, you are warned not to use them too close and not to use them aimed above the chest, because they can seriously injure someone.
I found an article that came to mind on the subject of gas guns — It is about a retired military leader who was connected to the Chosun Ilbo who was roughed up by a pro-Roh group after they ran a negative cartoon about him –
“A scuffle ensued, and Seo reportedly emerged with injuries that will take three weeks to heal completely.”
So maybe it was 3 weeks instead of 2 to reach whatever legal threshold…But these sentences are very common in assault reports.
“According to police reports, at 12:15 p.m. Seo was rushed and then surrounded by about 50 demonstrators on the road next to the Koreana Hotel, including the actor Myeong Gye-nam, and then grabbed by the collar. Seo said later that he felt threatened when the protesters were coming at him and cursing, so he fired a blank shot into the air with his gas pistol.”
Jake it is a pellet gun… with a CO2 CARTRIDGES ….you may of had one when you were a young boy… but it shoots a kind of rubber bullet.
If I were a Korean I’d learn English on my own and I would be fluent in three years.
I am almost disappointed that Uljrio Marzipan hasn’t popped in to say a few choice words:
angry expat
useless white trailer park trash (do they have trailer parks in Canada?)
etc etc.
All grist for his mill, and those of his ilk, I’m afraid.
I almost agree with Blinger in that I think the newsworthiness of the story was in the assault. If they had just been caught working illegally it would not have been much of a story at all - happens all the time. Those guys deserve what’s coming to them for both crimes, however, if they are guilty of them.
Anti-Foreignorism, so to speak, is a real subject that the Republic needs to tackle for its own interest and for other reasons because the R.O.K. is known for being more xenephobic than almost all other countries and for its still unsolved human rights abuses.
The country is getting better at being down with the Waegooks. So, we should not let this example of Traditional Korean Xenephobia (no copyright on this one) cause us to forget that a lot of Koreans have changed their attitudes for the better towards we blacks and whites.
Rock on, R.O.K.!
I failed to include in my previous post that the possibility that the Canadian people in question were somehow goaded into the fight.
I’ve seen lots of English teachers here attacked by locals and, out of sheer self respect, go nutsoid on their attackers.
Anyway, thought that I’d qualify that post of mine.
PH
I am sure that I speak not for a few foreigners here, but at least similarly to them, when I say that although I have been here over 4 years, and I am *prominently* visible (6′4″, white, bearded) wherever I go, no one has yet attempted to ever goad me into a fight, or physically attack me in any way. Which is good because I am crap at fighting….
good thing these 2 werent American!!!!!
If you don’t go looking for street-fighting sort of trouble, you are rarely going to find any in this country. In 20 years, through many waves of anti-Westerner campaigns, it has never happened to me once. The very worst atmosphere of these, by the way, was 1989 — far worse than the present or the two-girls-run-over-by-GIs era, in my own humble opinion.
The apparent facts remain:
1) these were illegal workers. Again, it is not hard to work legally in this country. The onus is on the worker to find the correct avenue to come here. All that takes is one Google search.
2) Koreans love getting drunk. Yet in half a year here I’ve still rarely seen drunk Koreans acting violently. On the other hand, I have seen many drunk westerners acting violently.
3) according to Beej in the EFL Law thread, an eyewitness to the scene, one of these Canadians sucker punched a Korean while still in the bar, with no apparent provocation. I would guess that a Korean uttered some xenophobic remark, but that doesn’t justify a shot in the face.
4) in a foreign country, especially, you can’t give in to your animal instincts and attack “when (verbally) provoked.” That’s a Canadian American mentality, and it won’t fly in this country, fortunately. These men have made things harder on all the rest of us here, and I think some of us are justifiably angry with them.
“I think some of us are justifiably angry with them”
So who cares if you’re a little angry. That’s pretty easy to say while sitting in front of a computer. Imagine sitting in a korean prison not knowing what will happen to you. Not being told what the charges are. Who cares if you’re a little angry. Imagine the families of these guys in Canada being asked to pay ridiculous amounts of money in order to free their sons. Who cares if you’re a little angry…..you people need to get over yourselves.
Not my real name (scared to use real name I guess), I bet you were the kind of kid who ratted on his friends.
I was about to commend you for your loyalty to your friends until I came to the last sentence. Let’s just get one thing straight: these men will live with the consequences of their actions. So will we. You won’t–you’re in China.
I would agree with David with some qualification. Both from personal experience and watching the Koreans among Koreans, it was rare I saw two men go at each other in a full fight. I lived above an old bar district where the middle aged Koreans went, and I saw serious drunken arguments and physical confrontations on a weekly basis, but the only ones who regularly came to blows were the women or a woman slapping a man. I was always amazed to see how much one Korean man would allow another to push and pull and tug on his shirt or coat and they yell at each other as red faced as could be, but nobody threw a punch.
It was alien to an American where we have such a sense of personal space.
In my personal expeirence, I often travelled alone in Korea sight-seeing and doing other things or coming back or going to the PC bang in the wee hours of the night. And I had about 2 or 3 “confrontations” a year - where someone would end up wanting to express their rage by trying to get me to go at them. Since I knew I would be the one thrown in jail and if I started doing well in the fight (which wouldn’t have been hard in most cases since the person was usually dead drunk) other Korean good citizens would have jumped in and not to help me, I simply “endured” - like I saw those other Korean men do outside my window when I lived in that apartment. So, the worst I ever got was my sleeves and shirt pushed and pulled on until I could simply walk away. I sometimes wished I had been back in the US in such occasions, but when in Rome…..
I have lived here for a number of years and have had Koreans try to provoke a fight, but in all fairness, I have had just as many, if not more, drunk Westerners try to start fights. I live across the street from a Police Station (sub) and see Koreans arguing and fighting with one another almost every night and I agree with USinKorea that most of them are just pushing and shoving contest - each trying to call each other the dirtiest word with the most conviction.
The one thing that I do remember that I always thought was funny - when I went to Sogang (language training) I attended class with a member of the American Special Forces in Korea - he was a huge man, the expression on his face did not invite conversation, let alone confrontation. However, it never failed to happen, at least once a week, while we were walking on campus we (he) would be confronted by a Korean male - the profile was almost always the same - the smallest guy you could imagine. We were convinced that it was a rite of passage or an initiation into one of the circles on campus.
I really don’t think everything that happens in Korea is related to race/nationality - I think it is just males being males. It is the same formula all over the world, several drinks, a male in a foul mood, and you have trouble.
I am from the same town as the two men in question here, and I will be the first to say that these men are very good people who would give all they could to anyone in need, I have to comment on the thread posted by Spiffy who obviously has met these men and knows them so well, I would like to know what events you wittnessed that night at the bar that can lead you to judge these two men as you so rudley did in your post and as I am almost sure YOU WERE NOT THERE keep your stupid comments about the character of these two men to your self and the rest of us Canadian citizens will keep our fingers crossed that your not on the jury when these men go to court on monday
I don’t believe there is a jury in Korea unless things have changed.
If this goes the way I’ve seen a few others, these guys will get about 6 months in jail and a fine. On appeal, the 6 months will be dropped down. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is dropped down to time served. Then they will be deported and probably fined.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they are simply deported if they can come up with some money for the man through or outside the court. If they “show some contrition (sp?)” by giving some money, it will help them.
It will depend on how much the victim wants to press the issue. I’ve seen US soldiers in similar cases get the 6 months verdict as I’ve described - even when all hell was raging against them in the media and society outside the court room (1994-95 subway case being an example). The Canadians might get away with just a fine and deportation.
caper34,
you know these two men personally? care to enlighten us as to why they decided to live in korea illegally for almost two years? you talk so glowingly about their character, but here they are a couple of people breaking the laws of another country on a daily basis.
oh, and have you ever been with them when they’re drunk?
also, there are no juries in korea. not yet. i would not want to be them in a jury trial.
Just thought Id post what was written on another messageboard (by someone who was there)
http://www.efl-law.org/forums/.....ascstart=0
Two of my friends are in detention at the Police Staion, serious charges pending, here’s why:
Late Friday night/Saturday morning, about 4 am, two of my friends, both Canadian citizens were involved in a fight with 3 Korean men. THey had exchanged words with the men in THE BAR (name of establishment in Sinchon) and we left the establish ment. While one of my friends, Jason, was relieving himself in an alley, two men attacked my other friend Scott. Both Jason and Scott are very big men, and the fight that ensued was not very pretty. We began by trying to push the Korean men away, as did one other Korean man who was a friend of those who began the violence. After dodging punches repeatedly, Scott lsot his temper and punched one of the men a single time, which was enough to break his jaw and put him in the hospital. Jayson, who was enraged at being suckerpunched with his pants around his ankles hit one of the other men a few times after that, though no serious injuries occured. Meanwhile, myself and one of the Korean men were trying our best to break up the fight, but we didn’t have any luck. Once it started, neither side wanted to walk away.
That was a very long description, as accuracte as I can manage.
The police arrived and took all of us to the police office (minus the one man who was taken to hospital). While in police custody, the Korean men were given MUCH different treatment than ourselves. They gave their statements and left. They claimed that we attacked them (by we, I mean my friends Jayson and Scott). This is absolutley NOT TRUE. The translator who claimed to be working for us constantly eveaded direct questions such as “Have we been charged with a crime. If so, what crime?” and “Do we need a lawyer?” There was no communication barrier here, he understood, and he stonewalled us.
Jayson was asked to sign what we assume was an admission of guilt, though we were never told what it was he was to sign. I calle the Canadian Embassy and used the Emergency line to Canada, on which I explained our situation but could not recieve immediate help or advice because I couldn’t answer her questions like “Have you been charged with a crime? If so, what crime?”
After several hours I was told to leave, and Jayson and Scott had to stay. They are now in police custody, and a different translator has called me on Scott’s behalf to tell me that they are in SERIOUS trouble, and have been charged with a crime, but he couldn’t way what. I can see them again during visiting hours tommorow 9am to 6pm, I hope to know more then. If you have any advice, or a good lawyer to reccomend, my friends need it badly.
This was a long post, and exhausting to read, if anyone got to the end and can help, please reply, I will be checking this post frequently. My phone number is 010-3148-8887.
isnt that funny,AN EYEWITNESS REPORT NOT A BIASED OPINION FROM A BIGOT EX.NORA SUMI PARK.
Hamel,
In Canada, we have more than mere trailer parks, we have the ‘Trailer Park Boys’! I have seen only one episode of the TV show but my friends back home love it.
If the two are guilty of one or both crimes, I hope they get deported. I don’t say that out of meanness of spirit; deportation sounds much better than jail time.
WELL SAID BRIAN ,SEND THEM HOME.
Thanks for the detailed eyewitness report, (Anon) — it’s refreshing amidst all the prejudiced ignorant blather. Sounds like a very typical case, a cookie-cutter template for Korean-foreigner fights. Wish i could offer help, but all i know is that Brendon Carr is a good lawyer here, and a helpful guy. Don’t have his number, but he’s often been on this blog, so maybe he’ll respond…
The fact that the police didn’t tell them if they were arrested or for what isn’t that unusual - at least in the US. This kind of event happens all the time. The police would have the right to hold the people while they investigate, because they know a crime has taken place — broken jaw and two groups saying the other assaulted them. But, until the police could determine who the primary aggressor was, they wouldn’t know who they would arrest if they’d arrest anybody.
Usually, in the US, what happens is both parties are turned loose, and both are informed that if they want to file charges, they can go to court and take out an arrest warrant. Taking out warrants is the way the US system prefers to handle such cases.
The police usually arrest only when the guilty party is obvious and the crime took place either in the presence of the officers or within a short period of time before the police arrived.
The primary aggressor also doesn’t have to be the person who started the fight. I can punch you in the nose and run away. If you chase me down and kick the shit out of me, you go to jail. How the jury feels about it can go either way.
In this case, the two Canadians would be arrested anyway for being illegal aliens. That being the case, the chances they would have the assault charges tacked on in the US are probably high. Why? Because the police aren’t the final judges to begin with. It all goes to court, and the evidence is supposed to be weighed.
Also, in the US, I believe the Canadians would have the right to file for a warrant against the Koreans even if the police arrested them for the fight. It would depend on the judge who signs the warrants.
The penalties for first time offenders in such a case wouldn’t be much either. I don’t think they are a whole lot even if you have had trouble before….
I checked out the first several pages of that thread. In it, one can read a purported eyewitness account by another foreiger. This foreigner says that while still in the bar, a Canadian sucker punched a Korean for no apparent reason. Upon the revelation of this claim, one Canadian resdident “smitty,” who apparently knows Jason and Scott as fine, upstanding citizens, unleashes a string of prejudiced, unreasoned, and bullying prose against the witness. Others join in: “you’re not helping,” they say to the witness. Frankly, if these are the character witnesses of Scott and Jason, they don’t have much hope. Reminds me of my old neighbours somewhere back home; no matter how drunk or violent they got, they were always “good, upstanding citizens.” Finally, it is very easy to get a job legally here, Scott and Jason had little excuse for teaching illegally since 2003, and that does not bode well for their “character.”
Hmm, just to clear up my grammar in that last post: the foreign witness, “beej” stated that one of the Canadians in question was the one who had suckerpunched a Korean while still in the bar. Scott and Jason don’t have much hope if their character witnesses [not including the poster just above in this thread on the Marmot's site] (1), can’t write English, and (2) exhibit the herd mentality of a group of animals with that particular verbal venom only humans can produce.
I am friends with both these guys. I have been drunk with them. They are not violent unless provoked. Like most human beings they will defend themselves when attacked.
Nora Sumi Park, I think you should get your head out of your ass. Do you think these are the only illegally working english teachers in Korea? Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
First of all these guys both have Bachelors Degrees from the number 1 ranked undergraduate school in Canada. Saint Francis Xavier University, in Antigonish, Nova Scotia.. Here is the contact information for the registrar at St. F.X. so you (or anyone) can call or email in order to confirm the educational background of these two men.
registrar@stfx.ca
ph: 001-902-867-2160
fax: 001-902-867-5458
Oh wait, it just occured to me that you probably don’t know their names. I find it odd that you can sit there passing judgement on two men you don’t know based on only the fact that they are being labelled “illegal workers”….while you sit in front of your computer creating your own little world rather than going out into the real world to see how things actually work.
I also find it odd that all these asian countries (I am currently in mainland China) are importing foreign experts at such a high rate in order to learn OUR language. Then you people complain when some are found to be in the country illegally. I’m sure these guys could have work visas, if their employers weren’t corrupt and wanting to save money by paying them under the table. The system in Korea is badly in need of examination by higher officials, blaming the workers is the wrong end to start. As I said before, don’t hate the players….hate the game. In this case the game is being refereed by corrupt politicians, govt. officials, and police.
These guys need our help. They are real people and deserve a fair chance. I find it appauling that there are some of you who speak negatively on their situation in order to make your post seem more whitty or enlightened than the previous bozo. Grow up people. These are men’s lives we’re talking about. Get over your own little dramas and say something useful, or shut the hell up.
I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Korea from 1974 to 1976 and it is interesting how little some things have changed in the course of the last 30 years. Booze, race, nationalism, and testosterone made for a nasty cocktail then, as well as now. There is certainly a streak of xenophobia in Korean society, but without it I doubt that Korea would have survived over the centuries. Some koreans resent certain foreign presences and its a good bet that if you are in a bar late at night you’re gonna attract some of these folks. And it is not unusual anywhere in the world that the out-of-towner gets the short end of the legal stick when there is a fight. It is not right, but that’s the way it is.
I should also say that I experienced far more friendly interaction with locals in korean bars than hostility (maybe things have changed?) and I’ve also seen foreigners act like jerks and invite hostile reactions from local folks. It is not all that easy, but try looking at the situation from the Korean point of view - some of these situations are pretty humilating. At least in Korea you are not likely to get shot as a consequence.
pusan in canada,
what makes me a bigot?
i did make a value judgment that their character may be in question when they willingly worked illegally for nearly two years. how does that make me a bigot?
i also asked, legimitately not rhetorically, if the person who said he/she knew them had ever seen them when they’re drunk. i asked this because i know quite a few people whose innocent, upstanding character flies out the window when they’ve had a few.
the only thing that might have looked out of line was saying that “i would not want to be them in a jury trial,” but what i meant was that i don’t think a korean jury would be too lenient with two ‘foreigners’ who broke some guy’s jaw, regardless who started it. if i’m being ‘bigoted’ against anyone, it’s the koreans for thinking that a jury of koreans might not be fair and objective when judging two foreigners.
It seems almost ironic that only two weeks ago I was at “The Bar” and had a couple of drinks with some of the French embassy staff. After they (the French) left an American military member (who should not have been there - violating curfew - asked me if I wanted all my teeth knocked down my throat. I still am unsure what that is about. I personally found that the staff at “The Bar” friendly, and for the most part the Korean customers tend to like foreigners and do not seem to cause much trouble. Understand that I don’t go there often, but the two incidents that I have witnessed all involved foreigners and not Koreans.
Hard to believe that I am a “native” English speaker with that many errors!
I agree with Nora’s observation about trial by jury in Korea. These guys are far more likely to receive leniency from a judge than from a jury which is unlikely to be composed of their peers. They should try to pay some monetary compensation and settle out of court, if possible. Then get the heck out of the country, if they still retain their passports.
i still am not sure why i am being called a bigot, unless it is because as a _kyopo_ i have been expressing disapproval about some _foreigners_ here. if that is the case, then i would like to mention that i would be just as critical about illegally working kyopos (not all kyopos get f-4 visas) and i am making no assumptions about the racial background of the two canadians involved. for the record, i know more than a few kyopos here who are a-holes with chips on their shoulder and that gets them in trouble a lot.
i suppose i can be accused of being insensitive to these two poor guys in jail, but that might be because i don’t see them as two poor guys. it seems their own actions got them into the mess they’re in.
first, they’re here illegally, which is probably one of the reasons they are in such hot water (and perhaps why they’ll be deported rather than be imprisoned). i don’t buy the idea that craig said that “these guys could have work visas, if their employers weren??t corrupt and wanting to save money by paying them under the table.”
why don’t i buty that? because there are plenty of half-decent places willing to legally hire someone, so there is no need to stay at a place that is illegal. they certainly aren’t contracted to stay there.
if they were two people who had been under a legal contract but had to leave the place and go underground because of some problem, i’d be more sympathetic. but after almost two years of working illegally (if the report is correct, which it might not be), that just seems very unlikely.
some people like the freedom of not being tied down to one place and they go that route. so while other people are trying to play by the rules, these people work the system illegally. i just don’t see how they can be ‘innocent’ in such a case. if i’m wrong, then enlighten me, please.
craig also says that “The system in Korea is badly in need of examination by higher officials, blaming the workers is the wrong end to start.” i don’t agree. i think all three factors are to blame: the hagwons looking for illegal teachers (so they can manipulate them and/or the system or screw the competition), the teachers who are willing participants in that kind of shady side of the business, and the government that is unwilling or incapable of doing something to curb it. all three are to blame, and i’ll start blaming all of them at the same time.
craig said i should hate the game instead of the players, and he said that “the game is being refereed by corrupt politicians, govt. officials, and police.” yeah, well it’s also being continued illegals who willingly participate.
hey, how about the honest people (hagwon owners and teachers)who are getting screwed by people who don’t follow the rules? sorry, but i just tend to take their side a little more.
from the outset, it looks like these two guys think the rules shouldn’t apply to them. maybe i’m a little too law-and-order, but the problem in korea is that too many people, koreans and foreigners, think that rules are for other people.
so if they’re getting charged or deported for working here illegally, i’m not going to cry in my latte over it.
then there’s the assault. somebody has claimed that one of them sucker punched one of the koreans who jumped them later outside. if that is really what happens, they deserve whatever reasonable jail time they get for assault.
but i’m not going to assume that is the case. i’m going to assume that they were ambushed by three koreans with a chip on their shoulder. yeah, it does happen. sometimes the koreans are the ones with the chip on their shoulder, sometimes it’s the foreigners, sometimes it’s both. but for the sake of discussion, i’m going to assume the least amount of blame for these two canadians.
korea has laws and rules, and people are expected to follow them. when koreans come to blows, generally (from what i’ve heard) the person who ends up severely injuring the other is the one who gets blamed for the fight. even if he (or she) is not the one who started it.
that’s the way it goes, and it applies to foreigners, too. i guess a lot of foreigners are bigger than a lot of koreans they encounter, and so when they take a swing, they end up doing a lot of damage.
supposedly, these three drunk korean guys were swinging and missing, and one canadian finally got fed up and swung and broke one guy’s jaw. in north america, the jawbreaker would be justified in using force to fight back, but this ain’t north america. he used excessive force and put someone in the hospital. since the koreans weren’t even hitting their target (supposedly), then the excess force was unnecessary, according to korean law (i think).
this same standard would be applied to a korean. there are fighting rules in korean law, and that seems to be one of them. another one is (so i’ve heard) the difference in criminal degree between hitting with an open hand versus a closed fist. the latter will get you in a lot more trouble.
when there’s a korean and a foreigner, it’s not always that simple, though. one very big problem is that the police here are too easly swayed by the person they can understand, which often isn’t the foreigner. i know of cases where someone who was in the right got in trouble or nearly got in trouble because the police were influenced by having heard the korean instigator’s made-up side of the story first without ever hearing the foreigner’s side. too often they make up their minds too quickly. it’s a big problem, yes.
but the fact remains, they wouldn’t be in the mess they’re in if they had let it go (which from what i’ve read, they could have) and if they hadn’t been here illegally. if one of them really sucker punched one of the koreans in the bar in an unprovoked attack, then the first thing is all the more true.
you’re in korea, you go by korea’s laws. it’s like the idiots that come here and smoke pot, get arrested when their friends rat them out to save their own skin, and then complain about how bad they’re being treated, often complaining that doing whatever they did wouldn’t be a big deal back in canada or in the u.s. you’re not in the u.s. or canada, you’re in korea. if you can’t live in korea without smoking pot, breaking people’s jaws, or working illegally, then maybe you should be somewhere else.
not everything bad that happens is because of being a foreigner. we know for a fact that one of the laws had been broken for close to two years, and the physical assault seems to be another one.
—-
that said, i don’t think they deserve to be railroaded. craig also said, “these guys need our help. They are real people and deserve a fair chance.”
yeah, i do agree. like i said, i don’t think it’s fair if the police automatically take the side of the korean guys just because they were able to communicate their point of view better.
but breaking someone’s jaw is serious, and jail time might be inevitable. like someone else said, they should hope for deportation. if you want to hear something useful, that’s what you should plea bargain for.
if there is a lawyer here, please verify or refute what i’m saying, but my understanding also is that courts are much more lenient on people who express remorse. if you’re not guilty, that’s a hard thing to do, but sometimes it’s wise.
if they express remorse at what they did (breaking some guy’s jaw, even if he was a prick, plus working illegally, they might just get deported. but if they cop an attitude, they are going to be in for a world of hurt.
craig also said, “I find it appauling that there are some of you who speak negatively on their situation in order to make your post seem more whitty or enlightened than the previous bozo. These are men??s lives we??re talking about.”
if that is addressed to me, then i’m sorry if i came across that way. yeah, this is someone’s life and that is serious. but i guess i’m just tired of people coming along, acting like the rules don’t apply to them, and then expecting us to feel sympathy when it blows up in their face. i guess lately i’ve been involved in too many other people’s dramas as i’m asked to find
“Get over your own little dramas and say something useful, or shut the hell up.”
well, i hope this wasn’t unuseful.
We’re all clear that there are no juries in Korea, right?
Back and Forth.. on and on it goes.
No juries yet, but I think I read somewhere in the papers that Korea will try them out soon. (Pilot test)
Notmyreal name,
When you go out to the entertainment sections, who are you with and what type of bars do you go to — ones with some foreigners or all Korean?
I am asking not to make a point but for information.
It is curious when experiences in generally the same place come up somewhat different. You say you have seen a good number of incidents between foreigners drinking but none with Koreans in the 6 months in Korea. How much of that could be related to who you hang around with and where you go at night?
For myself, I can’t really say I saw a whole lot of Korean on Korean violence - if we limit violence to punches being thrown. Maybe if I had not lived above an older bar area where only middle aged Koreans went, I might have written something similar to what you did. But having lived above that area, I saw major arguments a few times a week and occasional “fighting.” I was always amazed at how much a Korean male will allow a friend to man-handle him without fighting back!
But, I didn’t see the frequency of foreign fights you have. I didn’t go out to areas frequented by foreigners that much. When I went out to drink, it was usually with Korean adult students, and we went to places where I was the only white guy. When I went out with foreigners, it was most often just the 3 or 4 people from work, and we got drunk together, and there was never a fight.
And to close, if you want to see Korean on Korean violence, go to E-Mart and stand near the down escalator or stand near the mandarian orange stand when they put on a blue light special on the weekend. I saw a good number of Korean women slap each other silly and pull hair out at both locations during the crowded weekend shopping.
Korea will start a pilot jury system in 2007, end the program in 2012 and then institute an American-style jury system.
Hmm, I should probably say that “violent behavior” was an overstatement–I most certainly did not mean fights. Rather, I meant threatening behavior. People looking for a fight, and such. Perhaps that was best taken with a large grain of salt, usinKorea. I have seen this on the streets in Sinchon, and in Itaewon. I have been to Itaewon only once, and I don’t like it, although I won’t elaborate on my feelings. Once, I did see a drunk Korean in City Hall subway station who had to be restrained by his younger colleagues from going after another drunk middle aged man.
When I do go for entertainment, I am always in the company of Korean adults, and am usually the only white guy in the room. But I am not a huge entertainment buff.
My bottom line is that I find Itaewon intimidating. I have sometimes seen bad foreign behavior on the streets of Sinchon, where I often go. I rarely see definite violent Korean behavior, and can recall only this one example. I admit that I don’t frequent the party scene anywhere near as often as, probably, most people on this thread.
Thankyou for the information KoreaLegalExpert.
Not sure if I put this down before or maybe was just talking with some of the members in person. A friend of mine was Dutch - he is Korean now, and we were talking about the Netherlands. We had just read something in the paper about pot (sorry Nori - you brought it up) and how some of the Koreans were trying to get it legalized. It seems that in the past everyone was being busted for smoking it several years ago, and then (I don’t know why this was such a comment occurence) they had “group sex.”
My question - in a country with legalized pot - what happens if one of those nationals comes to Korea and gets stopped by the Korean police. I think I read not to long ago that the Korean police were giving urine test in some of the clubs (I could be wrong - and I think they are using hair samples now). What happens if the person tests positive? Even though he partook of the controlled substance in his own country where it was legal would he be guilty of a crime here - especially if he wasn’t Korean?
Sorry - not sure this posts makes sense - any ideas?
I keep reading on this thread that these two canucks are in Korea “illegally”. Is this to say that they overstayed the six month tourist visa Canadians are given without leaving, re-entering, and starting all over again? Or is it that they were working at a hakwon without the requisite visa; a visa they would be eligible for if they have undergraduate degrees they are purported to have? Then again, if they were studying in Korea they’d be entitled to work; as I recall, 20 hours or less per week - the relevant legislation was changed while I was student at Yonsei in 2000. So let’s be a bit nuanced here shall we. Let’s not condemn these guys with no evidence they instigated the incident based soley on the inference that they must be guilty as they are in Korea “illegally”. Afterall, the Korean government estimates there are around 350,000 Koreans in the US illegally…ahem, in the US without correct documentation. Using the logic of some on this thread (nora sumi park - “they??re here illegally, which is probably one of the reasons they are in such hot water”) we should assume whenever one of the 350,000 is involved in an altercation they probably deserve whatever they get as, afterall, they are illegal.
The fact that they are working in Korea illegally is immaterial to the case of assault. It does prey prejudiciously, however, on the minds of those who consider that assault.
Nora Park is right about many things here. Significantly for these two individuals, she is right that expressions of remorse are useful in a courtroom, particularly if the accused are guilty, and they should consider their feelings in this regard.
She is also quite right in contemplating the educational problem as a whole, rather than focusing on one aspect only. Institue owners, teachers, and the government combine to create a maelstrom of problems - economic, educational and social. Until all three elements are effectively controlled, some or all of these problems will continue.
One thing I notice, however, is that threads involving individual incidents often take that incident as evidence of another problem as a whole. There are a good many people in the world residing in countries illegally, but this does not by itself motivate them to commit other crimes.
If these Canadians broke laws, let them be held accountable for their actions. But lets not widen the debate to include all illegal residents - that’s really stepping off the pier.
In Korea 2004 it was finally realized that when vehicular traffic stops pedestrians can safely cross the street without going underground.
USinKorea, there’s a good reason why Koreans don’t punch each others out when they get into fights. That is because If they cause enough damage (no matter who’s right or wrong), they’ll end up having to pay up or go to jail - (again no matter right or wrong). Wrong is always whoever caused the most damage. This is the crucial thing that Westerners continually misunderstand. The “right of defense” is not necessarily hold true. If you make somebody go to a hospital you go to jail or agree with the victim to pay the victim the hospital bills plus pain and suffering - simple as that. The victim has to agree to the amount. It doesn’t matter if he suckered punched you or not, or whether you suckered punched him or not - doesn’t matter. You caused the most damage, you are guilty. That is the law.
The laws are different in Korea. Another example: traffick accidents. If you kill somebody with your car, you must go to the police and arrange to compensate the victim or go to jail - again no matter if the dead victim was at fault or not. Korean statistics adds such traffick deaths to manslaughter statistics - it is considered a serious crime of murder. To Westerners, this sounds all screwed up, but it’s true. Foreigners should know what the law is in Korea instead they continually get surprised and mistakenly think this is about racism when they get into trouble. I shake my head because somebody should be informing these English teachers of what the laws are. Maybe the employers should be informing their hired teachers, I don’t know.
To the guys who know the Jason Beaton involved in this story:
Is it the same “notorious” Jason Beaton who was a hockey player/scrapper. Ended up playing in the OHL but was I believe permanently banned for his behaviour (or so the story goes).
My sister knows the hockey player Jason Beaton and he is quite famous for fighting. He played on the same “AAA” midget team as a couple of my cousins.
If it is the same guy, I am not surprised at this story. He is well known as a VERY good scrapper AND HE likes it
not my name..
Yeah, I haven’t seen much violence, K-on-K either. Oh, except for the regular Kdude kicking his wife/girlfriends ass in public. This is without a doubt the most violent place I have ever been. Have you seen the punching games on the streets? Do you see how violent the kids are? Which Korean, exacly, do you live in?
“My bottom line is that I find Itaewon intimidating.”
grow a pair
*korea*
I don’t know what the fuss is all about. Those two guys will be out of jail as soon as you can speak the words let my people go. I predict they won’t serve a single day in prison. Usually deportation follows though.
By reading all the eyewithness accounts and putting the puzzles together, here’s what I think happened. One of the Canadian walked up to a Korean and suckered punched a Korean for no reason other than he was minding his own business. Then proceeded to invite the Koreans to have it out outside. The three Canadians walked out, a group of Koreans followed after 5 minutes. One of the Canadians was taking a leak when he was sucker punched by one of the Koreans in the bar who by this time is mad as hell. The other Canadians saw what was happening and tried to help. In the following melee, the Canadian punched out one of the Koreans, crushing his jaws which requires months of reconstructive treatment. Now we have one more twist to the story where a person has just come out and said he knows this Canadian as a former hockey player who likes to fight. A drunken brawl has turned out to be another international incident. Just another day in the ROK.
“My question - in a country with legalized pot - what happens if one of those nationals comes to Korea and gets stopped by the Korean police. I”
Sure, they spend few days in jail, pay a little fine, then get deported. No biggie. Overall Korea is very lax in punshment and law enforcement. Also Korea’s very afraid of hurting its international image by punishing foreigners, deserved or not.
Kimbob mentioned that ‘(w)rong is always whoever caused the most damage’ - so true. Even if you’ve never been in this situation yourself, you can see this on TV, as it’s a sometimes-used plot development on Korean dramas: the ‘good guy’ does the right thing in beating up the ‘bad guy’, but the bad guy ends up in the hospital, so the good guy has to pay the bad guy or his family for expenses.
(By posting this, I may have incriminated myself; it’s true that I watch the dramas with my wife. Purely for cultural reasons
Regarding informing foreign employees of the local law, this is so difficult as to be unrealistic, unfortunately. For example, which laws should they learn? If the answer is ‘all’ (and any society’s answer is ‘all’), how much burden ought to be placed on the employer? How much burden rests with the employee?
To give an example, how much education of Canadian laws should Canadian employers give Korean-national employees? Labor laws only? Health laws (and which ones)? Local statutes or national (is ‘federal’ correct for Canada?) law? Where do you start, and where do you stop and pass responsibility to the individual?
Typically, whether a citizen or not, residents (illegal or otherwise) are personally responsible for learning and abiding by the law. I agree with Kimbob that Westerners run into trouble due to ignorance of Korean laws (although I’d say that’s not the only reason - some are knowingly commiting infractions), but the onus is on them.
gbnhj those soaps can be quite addictive at times
)
Yep, as they say, “ignorance of the law is no excuse.”
(BTW I still like it where the law allows people to defend themselves. In Korea all I have in arsenal for self-defense is a mean face, and some armlocks
Boy Nora you sure do hate foreigners. Don’t you. I have read lots of your posts where you take any position as long as it??s trashing on foreigners. What is your beef with them? If I was noolji I guess I would ask if you got dumped by a foreigner and that is why you don??t like them. Anyway, I have read, tried to read, your endless rants and justifications. But in the end, you just don??t like foreigner??s right? I mean don??t tell me that you are upset that two foreigners are working in Korea illegally right? Is that really an issue with you? I bet you know quite a few KA that you like that are doing the same. Does that really get you all upset? I doubt it.
Anyway, someday you may choose to go to USA or Canada and travel, or live as so many other Koreans have done. I doubt they will hate you as much. I doubt they will be bothered by your presence in ?橫their?? country.