UPDATE II:
According to NoCut News (Korean), Masan City Council is telling Seoul to screw itself, i.e., it has no intention of withdrawing its “Daema Island Day” ordinance. The speaker of the council said that the central government has its job it do and Masan City its job to do, and the two should keep out of each other’s business.
UPDATE:
In a statement made in the name of the Foreign Ministry spokesman, the government has asked that Masan City repeal its “Daema Island Day” ordinance, explaining that while the patriotism behind the act was understandable, the ordinance itself was inappropriate and of no help in protecting Korean sovereignty over the Dokdo islets. What’s more, Seoul explained, it could cause unnecessary controversies, so restraint was the better part of valor.
The Foreign Minister also plans to send an official document to Masan City Council containing its request that the ordinance be repealed.
The ministry said a cool-headed, well-researched approach was required to defend Korea’s possession of the Dokdo islets, and that it would work hard to get the support of not only sensible Japanese citizens and intellectuals, but also that of the international community.
About this, a government official expressed concern that the grounds for declaring a “Daema Island Day” were still quite week, and the enactment of such an ordinance might lead to a drop in international trust in Korea. He called on Masan City to make a wise judgment.
The government measure also appears to have been taken in order to differentiate the attitude of Seoul from the of Tokyo, which sat by and watched as Shimane Prefecture enacted its “Takeshima Day” ordinance, claiming that as the work of a regional government, there was little it could do.
The government is also expressing concern about the anti-Japanese demonstrations and boycotts popping up around the country. The government understands the outrage, but worries that if such an atmosphere were to be conveyed in an unfiltered way to the Japanese public, it might provoke Japanese rightists and result in unnecessarily emotional responses on the parts of the two nations’ citizenry.
Prior to this, the Korean National Security Council released a statement Thursday calling for Korea’s position to be conveyed to Japan in a dignified and measured way as to not damage “the future of peace and coexistence” with Japan. In particular, the NSC called on Koreans to avoid excessive insults directed at Japan and to stick to proper etiquette.
A quick note on Daema-do/Tsushima: According to Mark S. Lovmo’s excellent site on the Dokdo issue, the question of sovereignty over Tsushima was apparently settled in the San Francisco Treaty:
The Japanese efforts to regain Dokdo during the negotiations of the peace treaty eventually failed. Although the 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty between Japan and the allied powers settled sovereignty over Ullungdo (to Korea), Tsushima Island (to Japan), and Chejudo (to Korea), the ownership of Dokdo was not settled in the treaty.
However, I didn’t notice mention of Tsushima in the actual text of the San Francisco Treaty (although I’m willing to bet the issue is dealt with in associated maps and documents). It might also be worth mentioning that even if it were, neither South nor North Korea were party to the San Francisco Treaty, and for what some suggest as seriously shady reasons.
ORIGINAL POST:
The city council of the port town of Masan, South Gyeongsang Province just passed — by a vote of 29 to 1 — an ordinace declaring June. 19 “Daema Island Day.” June 19, as everyone knows, is the day in 1419 (1st year of the reign of King Sejong) when Gen. Lee Jong-mu left Masan Harbor to launch his expedition to conquer Daema Island, known to those cretins on the other side of the East Sea as Tsushima. I don’t have time at the moment to translate the ordinance or go into the history, but suffice it to say it appears the crafty city councilmen borrowed the language of Shimane Prefecture’s “Takeshima Day” ordinance.
275 Comments
I think we all knew that this was inevitable.
Watch the Japanese reaction to this. Or shall I say, lack thereof.
The only thing more painful than insulting a Korean’s nationa pride, is ignoring it.
This is like watching a chess match between Kasparov and a rabid monkey.
I’m most impressed by this imaginative implementation of tit-for-tat diplomacy. Subtle, yet sure to be effective.
I can’t help but think of all the arguments I’ve gotten in over the last couple of years with Korean friends over the Iraq war and conflict in general. How many times I’ve had to listen to the same dribble from drunk students who endlessly repeat worn out phrases like, “???????? ????????, ??????????? ??????????.” What are they saying now? Screaming ridiculously nationalistic crap like “??????? ????? ???????!!!” It seems they’re willing to sacrifice the benefits of good relations with a powerful neighbor over what should be a non-issue. Watching something as petty as this exand into a real crisis is disheartening and also kind of satisfying. At least America’s wars and battles are fought in the name great causes, be it freedom, democracy or national liberation. The next time one of those friends tells me that he’s willing to go to war over Dokdo at least I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing all the word vomit about peace and the senselessness of war that was dribbling out of his/her mouth a few weeks ago was the bullsh*t I knew it to be. Hypocrisy’s alive and well in North East Asia.
…that was a lot harsher than I had intended it to sound. It’s just frustrating to hear so few reasonable voices in the Korean media or public. Nationalism’s a scary thing…
All wars are fought for self-interest, including Americas. The only difference between one nation’s war and anothers is in what manner they legitimize the use of force.
Granted, of course wars are fought to advance the interest’s of the nations that fight them. It just so happens that peace, stability and liberalism are in America’s interest, and the argument that war can be used to promote those values isn’t just a fig leaf.
The value of Dokdo is of an entirely different order. What great national interest of Korea’s does conflict over those two tiny islands advance?
Corpy Carly — OK, I tend to have strong reservations about the rhetoric being employed by the Korean side about this issue, but I want to make it clear that there ARE very real issues at stake. Territorial issues are always a sensitive matter, and wars have been fought over much less significant territorial squabbles. Yes, the rocks themselves, pretty enough as they are, are not particularly important, but the territorial waters that the rocks give its owner control of are economically significant in terms of fish and potential mineral reserves on and under the sea bed. This is, so to speak, a big deal. Is it big enough for Japan and Korea to trash their bilateral relationship over? No. A major conflict over these rocks would be as big a diplomatic failure as the Cod War between Iceland and Great Britain during the mid 1970s. But just because I tend to be more than slightly irreverential when it comes to the flag waiving/flag burning is in no way meant to belittle what is at stake here. I just hope even more significant bilateral interests aren’t sacrificed to “protect” its interests in this particular issue, especially when all Korea needs to do to protect its interests in this matter is simply sit on the isles and wait.
I don’t want to take this conversation off topic, but suffice it to say America has engaged in a number of military involvements with neither the end result nor the motivation being peace, stability, or liberalism. I generally don’t believe in any sort of socio-cultural-political exceptionalism that marks America as somehow unique.
That ordinance would have looked brilliant if there weren’t all these silly whinings coming out of the asses of lot of folks in the ROK. Now that the cow’s out of the barn, it just looks petty and childish. It is obvious ROK has no interest in fighting over Daemado (unless the Tokdo/Takeshima dispute esclates). It’s really a bargaining chip of argument, just like the territorial claims over Gando in Northern China. As for the statement what real interest there is over couple of rocks… it looks like someone hasn’t been following all the posts in here. The answer is, it is worth billions, potentially hundreds of billions.
Let me first say that I haven’t followed all the posts here either, so if I’m repeating something a point someone already made, apologies. That said, I would like to append something onto Kimbob’s take on the real interest over a copule of rocks. As I think most readers are aware, Japan has still has not normalized relations with Russia over the issue of the Northern Territories, and continues to argue with the Chinese over the Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands. Whatever the potential direct economic benefits from any of these three disputes, concession on any of the three by Japan, and the remaining two governments are going to smell blood in the water. (I don’t feel qualified enough to consider this from the perspective of the Koreans or the Russians, so perhaps a better informed reader can contribute more here?) I seem to recall reading in the comments section in one of the previous posts that someone had remarked that Japan will cave on this, but I would expect the issue will fade away sometime in the next few weeks because in spite of the rhetoric, it doesn’t appear worth permanantly damaging bi-lateral relations over this.
Well, this is an inauspicious beginning for me. I didn’t even realize I’d dropped the bar of soap for a couple of hours after first commenting. I would just like to point out that my original comment was directed more toward the insincerity of some who love to take the U.S. to task on any issue because it’s a fashionable thing to do, and use the language of peace to do it, yet when an issue pops up in their own backyard they resort to extremely provocative measures; the split between rhetoric and reality.
And yes, Dokdo could prove to be very valuable but what’s Japan going to do about it, seriously? Korea has had troops on those rocks for 50 years and last time I checked posession is 9/10 of the law. There’s no invasion being staged and I honestly think most Japanese are generally indifferent to the entire issue. Korea is responsible for making this crisis, when keeping their mouths shut would have done them much more good. To quote the authority on the subject, “all Korea needs to do to protect its interests in this matter is simply sit on the isles and wait.”
I call Tsushima an islet.
Sorry if I seemed I jumped on you. Actually, i go the meaning of your post, and I generally agree. Actually, one of the more ammusing aspects of this whole mess is contrasting the rhetoric coming out of Seoul with its advice given to Tokyo concerning the abduction issue or to the U.S. concerning the N. Korean nuke issue. Dokdo comes around, and all of a sudden, the graduate school peace studies curriculum (to borrow Nick Eberstadt’s line) doesn’t look so appealing anymore.
I really like the way Japan government is handling this - with calm and dignity (even if I think they are wrong to make the Takeshima claim) - in direct contrast to the way Korean government and her people are behaving. As an ethnic Korean, it is an embarassment to me. It’s not surprising but it’s still fearsome to see how the ideal of one nation, one people, one mind can manifest itself into a nation wide xenophobia. Before Noolji accuses everyone of taking sides with Japan, I urge the people of Korea to try to look at this from the outside, you may not like what you see. Fury without thought, and reason is only counter productive and will not persuade Japan nor any other countries that are watching this from the side. It only strengthens Japan’s case in the end.
I’m also extremely disappointed (but not surprised) by the amaturish emotional outburts by the Korean government in charge. Who do they think they are? They should be dealing with cold calculated analysis and base their foreign policies on that. They should not give into emotions expressed by the masses by pouring oil over the fire.
There’s a good reason why I don’t think this will turn into a big international problem. It’s because mature democracies like the US and Japan look upon immature democracies like S.Korea as children with temper tantrums. They don’t give S.Korea the attention (which also seems to contribute to the Korean frustration). Major advanced industrialized countries do not take S.Korea that seriously. Otherwise, can you imagine if something like this had happened in France? There’d be international condemnations of French immaturity, editorials in major international papers ridicules of how the French are acting like big babies, so on and so forth. S.Korea is lucky that they don’t get the attention. But maybe that is the problem here. S.Korea needs to be forced from the outside to look at itself critically.
I have to remind everyone that this is not the first time something like this has happened. There is a long history of this sort of outburts of temper tantrums in Korea. I’m sure that this issue too will die down after a while. As one Japanese official recently said, “Koreans get angry easy but they settle down and forget easily”. That is until the next time.
Another Japanese minister once again apologizes to the Asian population for the war time agressions. Koreans react with don’t just parrot out words, show us actions. Case in point this story today:
Two Chinese sex slaves lose appeal
Friday, March 18, 2005 at 13:51 JST
TOKYO ?? The Tokyo High Court on Friday rejected an appeal filed by two Chinese women who have sought 46 million yen in compensation from the Japanese government for being forced to serve as sex slaves for Japanese forces during World War II.
Presiding Judge Hiromu Emi said the wartime sex slavery gave the plaintiffs major physical and mental damage but they cannot claim wartime compensation under a treaty signed after the war and also due to the statute of limitations. (Kyodo News)
I don’t recall any case where a foreign victim has won a war time case against Japan. Not one. Can anybody recall?
Japan has every reason to stay quiet. Russia, China, Korea(both) all have territorial disputes with Japan, and the denizens of those countries don’t have much sympathies about Japan’s claim on those islands. Everytime Korea says “Imperial Japan,” international sentiments generally sway in favor of the past victim. A lot of people in Japan and the United States think that S Korea is the ONLY country with an axe to grind, but that is an idea that is powerful only in the echo chamber–it is just that the S Koreans, having learned fascism from the Japanese themselves, are the masters of this type of politics.
S Korea on the otherhand, the political party in power gains a lot of political capital by fussing up on the Dokdo issue. If I went on national TV in Korea, chopped off my middle finger and chuck it over the Japanese Embassy and yelled, “that’s my middle finger to YOU Hiro-fukn’-hito,” I would become a very popular person, perhaps even eligible for public office in Korea. All for my middle finger!
Rabid Monkey politics? Don’t be naive. Those SKorean politicians know exactly what they are doing, even when they are burning American flags. Uri party is doing an awful job at running SKorea, but they are indeed the masters of manipulating public sentiments to consolidate their power. It’s unfortunate that US really doesn’t understnad local politics whether it be Korea or Iraq (remember our understanding of Vietnam or worse yet Cambodia?) and it gets us every time. I think the first time it really happened was back in 1950 when they put an arbitrary line on the 38th parallel.
U.S. abandon Korea in favor of Japan? This is a conspiracy theory that is hillarious at best. As long as Kim Jong Il is around, even an anti-American S Korea is more important than Japan. The reason should be obvious, but I’ll give a hint for the newbies–shiites in Iraq.
“I would just like to point out that my original comment was directed more toward the insincerity of some who love to take the U.S. to task on any issue because it??s a fashionable thing to do, and use the language of peace to do it, yet when an issue pops up in their own backyard they resort to extremely provocative measures; the split between rhetoric and reality.”
Heh, this gave me a good laugh. How do you compare the 2 years long Iraqi war with Dokdo islands that is supposedly ‘disputed’. And please explain me why its wrong to call peace. Do you not like peace? Look at that Abu Ghraib scandal and the Marine exectution scandal, why on earth is it so wrong to say what you think, which is US involvoment in Iraq is total bullsh!t. US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country. There is definately a sharp difference between bloody war against insurgents and terrorism, with proposing to respond firmly against Japan’s claim to the isles.
As somebody pointed out above, its not so much the value of the rocks themselves thats stirring the relations of the two countries. Its about pride and belief. Also, as we shall see soon, the thousands of gallons of underwater energy resources.
Im just very *disappointed* at Americans there in Korea who seem to have little understanding of Korean mentality or culture. Heck, there are thousands in America that are crying for peace in Iraq, why cant there be in Korea?
And btw, when Koreans say Japanese invasion, it doesnt really have to be a military invasion. Cultural invasions are just as dangerous and their damages last even longer.
The old “they just don’t understand us” and cultural excuses just doesn’t wash anymore, Tarion. While that might have been the case when the country was a poor insignificant third world country. That is no longer the case. The world doesn’t have to understand Korea. Korea has to understand the world if she wants to be a global player. Koreans must broaden their views beyond Korea if they want to achieve their dreams of being a globalized nation. Globalization means much more than parroting out grand visions, that’s easy to do. Selfishness to put only Korean interests in the minds while ignoring everyone else’s is no way to go up, but down.
US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country.
Wow, democratic puppet government? Okay…
Ha ha ha ha…I live in masan,
Suppressing any desire to celebrate a rare issue for which Koreans aren’t blaming Uncle Sam (or are they?), I can’t see any good coming from this –except maybe to North Korea, which has new fissures to exploit among the 5 parties it faces in nuclear talks. Any diversion of public attention away from Uri Party incompetence will be brief. And in a country in which jingoism is the norm and moderates are extremely thin on the ground, no political party can really capitalize on this issue. They can probably try to outjingo each other, but this can have only have disastrous effects.
‘before nulji starts accusing everybody of being on japan’s side…’ kimbob
‘i agree with nulji.’ kimbob in reference to nulji’s advise to koreans on how to handle the japanese and their subtle ways of influencing the world about who they are but really aren’t.
‘everbody’, kimbob, is not on japan’s side but a good portion here most certainly are.
‘the koreans are always causing problems-koguryo, tokdo, all problems created by korea!’ dr lankova
yeah, korea’s ‘trouble making’ is reactive. that means they’re reacting to actions commited by others. i chide the koreans on the way they react not on the fact that they do react. man! who in the hell could read your book, lankova, when you’re so biased against the people you profess to care for.
slim
you really believe that? you said, “Any diversion of public attention away from Uri Party incompetence will be brief. And in a country in which jingoism is the norm and moderates are extremely thin on the ground, no political party can really capitalize on this issue.”
Fact remains that GNP sounds like hypocrites when they hackle the Japanese, and any attack on Japan is a reminder that Uri stands on the “moral high ground.” As far as Dokdo issue is concerned, I think that Uri has trounced the GNP. Think about it. I mean let’s be frank… Next Korean presidential elections, what do Korean people have as their choice? A communist or a fascist. And it’s hard to tell which is which! Lee Hoi Chang and No Moo Hyun is bad enough, but I shutter at the future of Korean politics. American people have absolutely no idea how good they got it, when our choice is Bush Jr and Kerry–and I don’t say this to praise these scoundrels. Who are they going to vote for? The incompetent lefties or the incompentent righties? No Moo Hyun doesn’t have to talk about his non-existent successes for Uri to do well. All he has to do is talk about how awful GNP is. Let’s put this terms to US politics. What has our president Bush done for us? What were his successes? But I see a lot of people scared and waving flags and thinking stuff like Patriot Act really protects them. Jingoism won!! And No Moo Hyun’s jingoism is much more powerful than Ms. Park. I agree with you on one thing–this is completely and utterly disastrous for Korea.
Declaring Daemado Day was such a bad idea that Shimane now has no reason to back off from Takeshima day regulation. Nobody outside of the peninsula would buy this.
Korea fears the rebirth of Japanese Militalism, but they don’t realized that their own totalitarianistic/social movement is as close to the pre-nati germany as it gets.
Admiral Tojo, you must be a Korea-newbie. Why do you think SK government WANTS Shimane prefecture to backoff? Every time the Anti-Japan horn blows, Uri popularity soars! If Koreans are like frogs in a well, you are like a frog outside the well thinking inside the well is a dimensional portal to Wonderland.
And of course the South Korean youths are as fascist as they get. They learned it from the best–Emperor Hirohito himself.
“The old ?橫they just don??t understand us?? and cultural excuses just doesn??t wash anymore, Tarion. ”
Indeed, sharp to the point and truth. But my comments were an answer to people’s previous comments accusing Koreans of hypocrisy. I wanted to point out that if waht they described is hypocrisy, then there is plenty more in the US and other nations. I was just very frustrated because it felt as they were accusing something which they did not have understanding of. For example, just look at this sentence:
‘Screaming ridiculously nationalistic crap like ????????? ????? ???????!!!??? It seems they??re willing to sacrifice the benefits of good relations with a powerful neighbor over what should be a non-issue.’
Lol, where is the crap? There is something that should be a non-issue?
But I like your point very much. Sometimes I even see myself partly closed to Americans or Germans, and anyother people I contact with. It seems that I like to keep something closed and different from them, soemthing that makes me Korean. But Im not sure how to change that…
“US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country.
Wow, democratic puppet government? Okay?? ”
Yup, an oxymoron in itself, but it is indeed very possible (and easy) to set up a democratic government as a puppet. U.S. could easily pressure Iraqi officials, given their security dependecy and support from US etc. in years to come, to do this and do that, give us a headstart on this oil field and that….
“Selfishness to put only Korean interests in the minds while ignoring everyone else??s is no way to go up, but down.”
Erm, where is the Korean interest? In fact, both parties exactly know that this dispute is against their interest.
“And of course the South Korean youths are as fascist as they get. They learned it from the best??Emperor Hirohito himself.”
Erm, dont really get the Hirohito part… But you must realize part of fascim’s definition is authoriatian rule, often right wing, and implement/supports totalitarian govt.
Tarion:
Imperial Japan molded Korea into its own image, and I’m not just talking about making Korean people talk in Japanese. And I’m not just talking about how they made us wear those hideous Prussian army clothes for boy students. Japan, indeed has many reasons to atone for, speaketh Andre Kim.
What I’m trying to say is that Park Chung Hee was a lieutenent in the Imperial Japanese Army. This is pretty representative of the Korean conservative experience.
But of course, Korean liberals are just as fascist. What I’m trying to say is that South Korean hoi polloi learned a different lesson from Japan during WWII.
Hirohito learned: don’t fight with USA. Hirohito=sun-monkey(son oh gong) and America=Buddha’s palm.
Korea learned: Hirohito is like a deranged Son Oh Gong. But Son Oh Gong kicks ass. Korea must learn the secret monkey kung fu.
And indeed, Korea learned the secret Hirohito Monkey techniques.
Pre-Japan, Koreans always looked own on “warriors” except for maybe Lee Soon Shin and my ancestor Gang Gam Chan. Post-Japan, the spirits of Nobunaga, Tokugawa, and Hideyoshi rose from Japan and possessed 3 south koreans by the name of Park Chung Hee, Chun Doo Hwan, and Roh Tae Woo. The irony of the thriving spirit of Bushido exists elsewhere in korean society. Like Shaku mentions in a different comment section, we call Kendo, Kumdo and Karate, Tae Kwon Do. But of course, it’s just as ironic that the Japanese insist Karate is Japanese, but as Professor Lankov says, that’s another story.
meant to say koreans looked down on warriors
back to the original post: i’m down here in busan, not far from masan and lots of my co-workers live in masan. let me say that it is a *huge* deal down here to the koreans. just on the car ride to work there was a lot of discussion about it. mainly, as the marmot mentioned earlier, it’s a huge source of seafood (among other things). but interestingly enough, my co-workers mentioned the seafood aspect over all other theories i have heard tossed around in regards to this. needless to say, it surprised me to hear such importance put on the abundance of fish located around these rocks.
“Virtual Wonderer” makes an important distinction, I think. One can only notice the Ouridang’s move from focusing upon the belligerence of North Korea towards focusing all attention upon Japan and placing that *ass* from the Ministry of Unification into a leading role in handling this issue, all for the purpose of furthering the Ouridang’s aims. It is sadly obvious that the leadership in the Ouridang wants to promote the image of this *ass* so as to run him for president.
Meanwhile, I hear almost nothing in the media about the North Korean execution videos. I guess they are not sexy enough for the TV PDs since they involve real-life killing of North Koreans . . .
Despite Japan being ignorantly wrong, this is movement in the wrong direction and sets the stage for more incompetence.
Oh ok, I see what you mean
hehe, you anology of the monky and buddha is amusing indeed. But I must kinda disagree on some points.
First off, Im guessing you guys mean fascists as ‘people who put their nation/ethnic identity over personal identity’ or something like that. While thats true, fascism also involvs gruesome totalitarianism and an authoritarian government. It also has left ugly histories in Germany (Nazism) and Italy (Mussolini). That is not to be found in Korea. I think ‘nationalists’ is a better term than fascists’.
And about the warriors, in fact, many war heros of Korea were officers (?????) rather than generals (?????), indeed confirming the lowly status of military in Korea (????????, ??????, ??????, ?????, ?? etc).
But to compare Park, Chun and Roh with Nobunaga, Tokugawa and Hideyoshi is quite another thing. Nobunaga was a warlord, who by deploying guns and other revolutionary tactics, succeeded in unifying the many fiefdoms (or whatever you say) into a single Japan. Hideyoshi is the very guy who invaded Korea and boasted he would conquer China and attack India. After Hideyoshi’s death, Tokugawa kicked out his young son and erected the Edo Shogunate. I don’t exactly see the correspondence of these Japanese with the Koreans you mentioned, not to mention their difference in time is about 300 years (perhaps you can explain more). While Park I respect as the very one that brought about the Miracle of Han, I dont quite see Chun and Roh as respectable characters.
I also dont see Bushido existing in Korean society. Korea today carries still its strong roots of Confuscism (?????). The respecting to elders, honoring of ancestors and showing loyalty to the country (all this, relative to other countries as Korea has also changed) are traces of it. Perhaps you can explain this as well.
And Im not sure about Tae Kwon Do, but I always knew Tae Kwon Do and Karate as seperate things (with Tae Kwon Do kicking @$$ of Karate). Do you have the link to Professor Lankov’s story? Thank you.
I just realized the true significance of this issue. At first, like everyone else I thought it was just a lot of unecessary hoopla about a ‘bunch of rocks’. Why would these fanatical koreans go to such riduculous lengths protesting land that’s not even habitable? Then someone rightly pointed out that the dispute was over the great source of resources and economic potential that surrounded the islets. But even so at this point, I thought, “So what?, why can’t they just share the wealth than risk the last 50 years of good relations? ” I wasn’t convinced.
Then I began looking at different sites that argue for both sides of the debate.
And here’s the jist of each side of the argument : The Japanese say the islets are theirs because of a ‘legal’ Treaty made in 1905. Their main argument lies in legal precedence and procedure.
The Koreans uses history to make their argument. Without going into any detail, the Koreans say they have historical records that claim Tokdo as their territory.
At this point, I would still say it may be a toss-up. What I didn’t realize was the significance of what the Japanese DIDN’T put into context. By making their ‘treaty’ legal, it in effect would legitimize Imperialist Japan (c . 1905-45) or in other words it would legitimize Japan’s past. Now THAT, is something to be alarmed about. And maybe Koreans percieved this as a reflection of Japan’s unrepentant attitude towards that part of its history.
Given this context, then I can see why one would want to cut off their fingers.
To me, its like the Germans denying the Holocaust had ever existed but using a legal facade to do so. How can the Japanese be so obtuse?
taegwondoe is about 40 years old too. naturally Koreans claim its thousands of years old. But prior to 1900, korean only used chinese martial arts. Nothing unique. That pretty much stayed the same until the 60’s when one of the first incartion of taekwando; Taesundo (chinese) was renamed taegwando. Just like most things that koreans claim is from Korea and origional, the first type of taegwando was just the renamed tasundo. This was started by a gen hong-hi choi. Naturally he got support from the korean govt, and built and developed it.
Koreans base their “1000’s of years of history with teaqwondo” with some flimisy evidence.
One piece is goguro murals. But there same murrals are found outisde of goguros realm in other parts of china.
needless to say, this is more of korean “history stealing” but no sence in going into more of that.
Elgin. Once I saw the *ass* on T.V. heading up this issue, I told my wife this will be the next President of Korea. He scores big time popularity points for this by looking like a patriot. It is obvious he is the choice of the uri party to be the next president. Maybe once he gets elected he can stop all those darn old people from voting.
will,
even in japan there is acknowledgement that korea may have had a ‘legal’ claim on tokto in 1900, five years before the shimane incorporation.
something i wrote on my blog has a link to japan times saying this.
In a conv ersation I came up that in or around the Tokto Islets there is a large deposit of natural gas. If this is true then it would be wise for either side of the Sea to make claim on the drilling rights to this gas. Both countries are oil dependent but dont have the military might to take it from other countries. So they have to take it from each other.
Still it is a perfect example of the ????,???? philosphy that is so prevalent in all aspects of society in Korea. Knee Jerk-Shoe Throwing politics has always been the standard in the ROK.
Stupid ass Koreans… man these people have all the wrong priorities. Sure, North Korea and that chubby madman in charge up there could invade at any point and turn the “Miracle on the Han” to ashes and sure the Chinese would prefer to see all the East Asian countries as colonies of the Middle Kingdom, but the ignorant South Korean are pissed and angry because some provincial Japanese politicians are laying claim to a worthless rock.
The Japanese and the US are the best things going for South Korea, without them the whole penninsula would be ruled from Pyongyang. World War 2 has been over for 60 freaking years and the worst thing Japan has done since then is send crappy music to South Korea… Japan is in no way a military threat to S. Korea but I can think of some other countries that are— its about time the South Koreans figure that out, before its too damn late.
The problem is the South Koreans are similar to the Poles. Serious I know those two countries well and what Japan is to Korea as Germany or the idea of Germany is to the Poles. The whole victim mentality and memories of suffering are so fundamental to the identity of post-war South Korea that people are willing to flip out over some minor sh-t like this for fear of being offended by the eternal enemy Japan. Something very similar happened in Poland last year when a small group of old geezers in Germany decided to sue the German and Polish governments for compensation for having been kicked out the of the one-fourth of former German territory that was turned over th Poland after WW2. The Poles went apesh-t, the Polish Parliament passed an anti-German resolution, the stupid mayor of Warsaw presented the German Embassy with a bill for 30 billion dollars for the wartime damage to Warsaw (60 years ago). And all the time in Germany nobody gave a sh!t or really even realized what was going on … why, because this original group at the start of the controversy was just a bunch of old right winged men of no importance.
But the idea of victimhood at the hands of an “evil” enemy or whatever you call it is so fundamental to the Polish (and South Korean) identity that minor issues can turn normal citizens of somewhat civilized societies into psychopaths..
This crap is insane and South Korea isn’t located in the this best neighborhood, so they really to wake up and move on and realize that as the one of the richest nations in the world they are not anyone’s victim (not yet anyway) and that partnership with Japan is probably its best hope against Chinese domination.
I still call Tsushima an islet.
Oh yeah, Marmot I don’t see you anymore on my beer runs. Did you move?
Will, you’ve nailed it.
1905 is the key word here. Japanese base their claims based on that year. I and others have pointed this out before in recent posts, not many people understood, while some here still took the side of Japan because they believe Japanese colonization of Korea was perfectly legal because the king of Korea at that time, signed the papers(of course they don’t mention that he had a gun pointed to his head). If they and the Japanese are correct, then why won’t they abide by the 1952 Sanfransico treaty that took away all Japanese colonial gained territories. Of course the Japanese say that the islets were not included in the treaty so it is still theirs legally. In other words, they took something that it wasn’t theirs in the first place, but because of technicality, it should be still theirs. You’ll also be interested that in 1947, Japan also claimed the island of Ullungdo along with Tokdo as theirs by petitioning the US occupation government. If Japan is allowed to reclaim Tokdo, they also have the legal means to reclaim Ullungdo as well.
So why the Koreans won’t take this to the international courts to solve this? Would you go to the courts to prove that your face is yours? More importantly, read this link which suggest that the International courts have a history of not taking into consideration, past imperialist agressions (any chance that’s because the judges are mostly made up from countries that were past colonial powers themeselves?). This is based on past similiar cases as mentioned here.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page10.html
Koreans are furious and many are convinced that Japan is up to no good again. In my opinion there is no real ulterior cynister motive of Japan (with the recent rise of the extreme nationalist rightwing in Japan), but it does show how unrepentant Japan is towards their past aggressions in Asia.
Wes from Germany,
Comparing/equating Germany with Japan? PLEASE.
Can I say something about that?
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html
“…The ministry said a cool-headed, well-researched approach was required to defend Korea??s possession of the Dokdo islets, and that it would work hard to get the support of not only sensible Japanese citizens and intellectuals, but also that of the international community.”
Reason descends on the land of the morning calm. What changed their minds?
Kimbob, what’s wrong with Wes’ analogy? Please explain.
I am pleasantly surprised by the Foreign Ministry’s level-headed handling of the Daemado thing in Masan. Well done! Taking the moral high ground and cleverly done at that. That is exactly how Korea should be going about this. Make Japan look bad by comparison and no need to lose any fingers!
koreans should show as much interest into the plight of starving NK’s and the gulag labor camps which their brethren are in
similar to the 2002 hatefest towards americans after the girls were killed
all blind emotional nationalism
period
i mean for god sake setting yourself on fire over a rock???
Kimbob,
What the hell are talking about??
Actually I was not equating Germany and Japan, I was comparing Poland and Korea or did you miss that some how. But I would be very interested to know why you can’t equate Japan and Germany’s actions in WW2- let me guess the holocaust, hmm well I think the millions of Chinese murdered by the Japanese army might disagree if they hadn’t been butchered. Both countries, Nazi Germany and Japan during WW2 were agressive, expansionist states ruled by dicatorships with grand ideas of building vast empires and scant regard for human rights and both were responsible for the murder of millions of innocent people- or don’t Asian lives count quite as much as Western ones.
So Kimbob, not that this is the actually subject of this thread or anything that I wanted to discuss, but why can’t you “dare” equate the two countries.
Corpy Carly, or Wes,
in Germany, people aren’t sitting around reminicing how the good old days were with Hitler, writing up books on how it achieved great acomplishments for the overall good of Europe, shouting Zieg Heil as they pass bills reclaiming past colonial territories which did not belong to them before they stole it, and in all essence, rubbing it in. Has Koizumi ever come out and say “shut up” to all his right wing nutcases, like the German Chancellors have in the past and present whenever their right wing make noise? Has any foreigner war victim ever won a case in Japan, as have in the German courts, in a country where they have accomodated and modified the laws so that the victims who sue, stand half a chance? Or do they hide behind unflexible unyielding Japanese law that says statue of limitation? They can’t even get righful backwages for heavens sake! How many memorials do you see for the victims of the biological Unit of 731, as in Germany where you see memorials for the victims of Nazi Germany? Most Japanese don’t even know that such experiments existed even, let alone have memorials! Any memorials for 20,000+ Koreans who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Oh yeah, there’s one, it’s full of cob webs, weeds, and hidden well away from the Japanese public. Any memorials of Koreans who were massacred for causing the 1923 Tokyo earthquake?
Of course not, it’s a country where politicians who claim Koreans/foreigners will riot in the streets if there’s another earthquake, not only gets elected time in and time again, but is highly popular. For instance do they have in Germany, hate trucks going around the neighborhood shouting thru megaphones “get out dirty Jews!”, as there are in Japan who shout “get out dirty Koreans!”?? Of course not, because Germany outlawed these nutcases and most Germans are genuinely ashamed of them. In Japan they get elected.
In Germany, many many war criminals were found and were punished. In Japan, only 12 were ever found to be war criminals. They are buried in a national war shrine honoring the Nazis.. oops I mean those Japanese war criminals.
Need I go on? I better stop here before I get a heart attack. But please tell me why you think Japan is as nearly repentant as Germany because I just don’t see it.
mcnut,
I very much agree with you that “koreans should show as much interest into the plight of starving NK??s and the gulag labor camps which their brethren are in”. You’re absolutely right that S.kOrea should be worrying more about NK than history and being angry against a country that will never change and is not a military threat.
But I can’t just sit by and say nothing when people are excusing Japan. What am I supposed to do, agree with them? For sure, overreactions in Korea are just as bad and I do not agree, and I wish this whole mess never got started. But that also doesn’t make what Japan is doing right as well. They can’t get scott free.
Kimbob,
I see your point but the fact remains, and this is the important thing here, Japan is NOT an expansionist militarist empire or a military threat to Korea. I agree the Japanese need to work on coming to terms with their actions WW2 and before and sure, they could learn a lot from Germany but seriously that aside the Japan of 2005 really does not have much in common with the Japan of pre-war and wartime era.
All I am saying is yes the Korean have a right to be a little pissed that Japan has not fully atoned or better said apoligized for its WW2 crimes but the outcry in Korea is totally over the top, considering Japan is in no position to bully South Korea around anymore, much less reoccupy the country. And this unhealthy fixation and hate of Imperial pre-war Japan is totally ridiculous considering that that state has not existed for 60 years. Modern Japan’s failure to apoligize or compensate is certainly not behind this fanaticism, like I said the Koreans can be pissed by that but the reactions to this Dokdo issue go beyond pissed- THIS madness is about the Colonial period and WW2, which the Koreans, who have convinced themselves that they are a nation of victims, still “fetishize” (and I use that word specifically) just like the Poles in Europe.
No, Japan may not be as repentant as Germany, but just like Germany, modern Japan is a wealthy comfortable middle class democratic society that has not invaded anything in 60 years and poses no military threat to its immediate neighbors - and nobody, especially the Koreans should forget that.
Don’t get me wrong Wes, I agree with you maybe about 95% of what you say. But as to this:
“No, Japan may not be as repentant as Germany, but just like Germany, modern Japan is a wealthy comfortable middle class democratic society that has not invaded anything in 60 years and poses no military threat to its immediate neighbors - and nobody, especially the Koreans should forget that. ”
Are you sure about that? For now, yeah you’re right. But what about in the future? After all, Japan has whitewashed their history. People don’t remember nor care - a nation that has never learned from history. How can we be sure what will start to happen if let’s say China starts moving in? What will happen NK increasingly becomes more aggressive? What will happen if the Right wing take over the government, as they are about to do? Japan is also as a nation tired of all the raggings about pre-WWII, it’s ripe for a nationalist revival. This is a boon to the right wingers who are gaining momentum. How do we know the scenes of Shimane prefecture politicians shouting the war time cry of “Banzai!” isn’t going to be more frequent? Japan already has a powerful military, with the influence of US starting to wane in the region. How do you know for sure that what you say will be continued?
I wouldn’t worry so much about Japan, except for the fact that
1) they have been attacking and killing Koreans throughout the millenia either through invasions or through too many to count pillagings of the coastal areas.
2) they have not learned nor repented their roles in WWII so there’s still a chance they will repeat their mistakes.
From the Japan Times (pay particular attention to the paragraph to the stars):
Shimane touts ‘Takeshima Day’
MATSUE, Shimane Pref. (Kyodo) The Shimane Prefectural Assembly on Wednesday designated Feb. 22 as “Takeshima Day” in a bid to exert Japan’s sovereignty over the South Korea-controlled group of islets.
News photo
Spectators shout “banzai” Wednesday in the gallery of the Shimane Prefectural Assembly after an ordinance designating Feb. 22 as “Takeshima Day” was passed.
The move has cast a pall on warming bilateral relations as the two countries mark the 40th anniversary of the restoration of diplomatic ties.
Sponsors of the “Takeshima Day” bill said the ordinance is aimed at raising public awareness that the uninhabited islets between Shimane and South Korea belong to Japan.
The move has prompted strong protests and a public outcry in South Korea, which calls the islets Tok-do.
***********************************************************
The islets were placed under Korean sovereignty in 1900. Shimane incorporated the islands into the prefecture in 1905, after Japan seized them during the Russo-Japanese war.
***********************************************************
Shimane Gov. Nobuyoshi Sumita said in a statement, “I would like the central government to use this opportunity to actively work to establish (Japan’s) territorial rights over Takeshima.”
The two small islets have a total area of 0.23 sq. km.
South Korea has had a coast guard garrison on the larger islet since 1954, according to the Foreign Ministry. Tokyo claims Takeshima is historically Japanese territory.
The Shimane ordinance states that South Korea has “illegally occupied Takeshima for half a century and has pushed forward with moves to strengthen its effective control over them.”
In Seoul, the South Korean government condemned Shimane’s move, saying it will “take every measure possible” unless the ordinance is scrapped.
The Foreign Affairs and Trade Ministry said in a statement that Japan “would be held fully responsible for any incident that may occur.”
Ministry spokesman Lee Kyu Hyung said the ordinance has an “impure intention to impair our sovereignty over Tok-do, which is part of our territory historically, geographically and according to international law.”
South Korea also said it lifted travel restrictions on its nationals to the islets effective the same day in what was seen as a retaliatory measure. North Kyungsang Province said it would sever sister-city relations with Shimane Prefecture.
The bill was submitted by 35 of the assembly’s 38 members. Of the 37, excluding the chairman, who voted Wednesday, 33 supported the bill and two opposed. One Japanese Communist Party member abstained and another member was absent due to illness.
When those in favor stood to show their support for the bill, people in the gallery, believed to be members of nationalist groups, applauded and shouted, “banzai!”
Before the vote, a Seoul assemblyman visiting the Shimane assembly hall was seized by police. Choi Jae Ik, who leads a South Korean group asserting South Korea’s territorial rights over the islets, was seen holding a box cutter and a sheet of white paper just before 9 a.m. near the entrance of the assembly hall.
He later told police he had been planning to cut his finger and write a statement in blood.
The assembly decided to deny entry to the assembly building by Choi and another member of his group following the incident.
Choi was holding a banner that read in Korean, “Tok-do is our territory.” He said he requested a meeting with Hajime Miyazumi, chairman of the prefectural assembly, but was denied.
Choi said, “An act of aggression is being decided in a closed chamber.”
South Korea has protested the move by canceling a visit to Japan by foreign minister Ban, and South Koreans have protested outside the Japanese Embassy in Seoul for days.
While the government claims that it is concerned by the diplomatic row with South Korea, it says it has no power to intervene in the Shimane assembly because the vote falls under the jurisdiction of a local government.
The “Takeshima Day” ordinance calls for promoting public activities to raise the nation’s awareness of the islets. It calls for the “early establishment” of Japan’s territorial rights over the South Korea-controlled islets.
The prefectural government says that Feb. 22 this year marked the 100th anniversary of the issuance of a prefectural notice that declared the islets part of Shimane in line with a Cabinet decision. Also in 1905, the signing of the Korean-Japanese Convention gave Japan full administrative control over Korea’s foreign affairs.
Kajitani heads the secretariat of a group calling for the “protection” of Takeshima.
Yoji Nozu, 64, questioned the move. “What’s the point in designating such a day in this unilateral fashion?” he asked. “We should also listen to South Korea’s opinions.”
The Japan Times: March 17, 2005
And the Japanese people would be foolish to isolate Korea, a nation which punches far above its weight class militarily, from whatever multilateral alliance develops in East Asia to counter China’s “soft rise”. It’s just that except for a group of morons in a backwater regional assembly, the Japanese have done very little to isolate anybody. Do you really see hordes of Japanese invading Korea on the horizon, whatever their history? Also, it seems to me the last invading force seen in South Korea wore Chinese uniforms and also happen to be responsible for the continued separation of the Korean state (and subsequent death of upward of at least 2 million Koreans). Where’s the trademark Korean grudge against their gigantic neighbor? Come to think of it, I haven’t heard too many apologies out of Beijing for that crime against the Korean people either. I wonder what their textbooks say about it all…
thanks kimbob,
now maybe people will start paying attention to _my_ blog, too!
if i write it out, my message will be rejected as spam, but it’s norapark and then a dot, followed by blogspot, then another dot, and then com.
it’s _that_ simple!
Corpy Carly, no question there’s the hypocrisy favouring China, and I’ve said in the past on many occasions, my frustrations with this. In my opinion, China is a much greater threat than Japan. All I’m saying is that there is still a chance Japan can evolve into a right wing military country flexing its muscles because they never learned their lessons, plus they have a bad habit of attacking Korea throuought their history - only minus the last 60 years. It can start with Tokdo - that will eslcate into a full blown war (which is no longer unfathomable as once thought). If they want to take it, there’s not much stopping them because they have a far stronger navy. Japan’s defense budget is second highest in the world, militarily they can quickly build up a super-power tanker, as they already have a very formidable military. The chances are remote that the right wingers like Ishihara Shintara and minister Abe, who are slowly taking over Japan, will go to that length. All I’m trying to say is that it’s still a possiblity, not likely but still possible. Of course I agree Korea’s immediate enemies are North Korea and China.
The reason why Korea is hypocritical toward Japan and China is this. Korea is increasingly dependent on China economically. Not just exports from Korea to China, but also many made-in China products are in fact are made by Korean companies which moved to China. Korea is the second highest investor in China. There is an economic synergy that is making both countries prosperous. For that reason, of course all the nutcases in Korea won’t dare to jeapordize the goose that lays the golden egg. On the other hand, Japan is an important trading country for Korea, but not as critical as China. Korea buys far more from Japan, than Japan buys from Korea.
I love the way koreans or kyopos like norapark or kimbob will clinig on any piece “evidence” to support their postion.
Kimbob: Look everyone the Japan times says takashima belongs to Korea because…..
Norapark: ohhohhohh daehan min gook daehan mingook look look what the japan times said.. ohhhohhh
Dude: The japan times also says the body of water between japan and korea is called Sea of Japan.
Dimbob norapark: The japan times is lie. The japan times just wants to steal hisotry.
Anyway, if you read the article, you will notice that japanese people are not all of the same opinion on the issue of takashima. Koreans and kyopos are all of one opinion.
norapark/Kimbob:
I cannot comment on what the one of many Japanese sites is telling you. I suggest you to read the Edict no.41 itself.
The edict describes two islands besides Ullungdo, Chukdo and Sekdo. It’s obvious that they are today’s Chukdo and KwanYindo, both right by Ullungdo. Daehan Shinjishi, a book written by a Korean intellectual Zhang ShiYuen with much more modern-day scientific knowledge in 1907, notes the Ullung area is between 130′35″ and 130′45″. Dokdo is not a part of it.
I was born a Korean. Now, I am a KoreanAmerican. Why do you ask? You think I may be a North Korean commie? Well, I like to hack off Kim Jongil’s head if I have chance. I do not believe that to be a sin. I don’t think that will fit the catergory of “murder”; it will be more like “disinfection”.
Yep, it had to be “Banzai!”. What else? “Banzai!” to kill the U.S. marines. And, “Banzai!” kill and subjugate Koreans once more. The Japanese believe they have weapons to do it. But, what about the personnel? People who are willing to shed their blood and fight on even when their buddies die off.
Does Japan have those soldiers? Korea does.
dude (in reference to above):
i am not “clinging to any piece of ‘evidence’ to support my position.” what i was trying to point out is that the 1905 shimane decision is not the only “modern” claim to the island by a country. the fact that korea’s 1900 claim is mentioned (without criticism) in the japan times does lend legitimacy to it to some degree.
dude, you also have me saying, “ohhohhohh daehan min gook daehan mingook look look what the japan times said.. ohhhohhh.”
silly dude, i would never say “daehan.” maybe “taehan.” i do say “ohhohhohh,” but only when i’m talking about the chemical composition of water molecules.
dude, you’re not doing yourself any good by lumping all kyopo together or by dismissing us all as some sort of hive. there are a lot of things i don’t like about this issue and a lot of things i disagree with. things that may surprise you, given that you seem to think our brains all look alike.
Stop! Reading back the last several posts, I’m starting to almost sound like the Japan haters ripping up Japanese flags in Korea. OK that’s it. You won’t get anymore defensive posts from me on this subject.
“needless to say, this is more of korean ?橫history stealing?? but no sence in going into more of that.”
If you want to say something ridiculous, please state some detail in your reasoning. IMO, you are one of those who still have the colonial mindset of a small tiny Korea that was always and will always be weak and helpless.
“but the ignorant South Korean are pissed and angry because some provincial Japanese politicians are laying claim to a worthless rock.”
Urg, please, why dont you just understand why SK government is making a big deal out of this. First off, these rocks, according to an article has tons of oil buried deep in the ocean that will be able to use with future technology (they are planning on searching the area, so we will get details sometime). Second, as some poeple have said, the Uri party is using this issue to increase their popularity. Yup, just politics. And Japan does, too, risk relations with Korea (perhaps not as much), and this dispute works against both parties. -_-
“but seriously that aside the Japan of 2005 really does not have much in common with the Japan of pre-war and wartime era.”
Exactly, and thats why people are trying to stop Japan from going to a pre-war state. See, if you let these textbooks that teach Koreans are inferior and Japanese rule has benefited them, in the next few decades we will have a whole generation of people who think colonization was OK. Indeed, Japanese right wing idiots have been working the crap out of them to justify colonization and war crimes. No, I dont think Japan is going to bring its army and colonize Korea. But there are plenty other ways to show imperialism.
Kimbob, Tarion.
I am glad that there are people like yourselves who know about Korea so much. You guys 100% correct. I am much older and my English writing isn’t great. So I will summarize my views. This may be what Korean nationals feel about this issure.
The Japanese are not quiet and cultured people as they seem to portray themselves to Europeans. They do fantasize frequently about their “glorious past”. The case in point is this “Dokdo” case. It is a clear attempt(they started it) to grab some land if they can. While NK is still threatening and America is looking the other way, these people wants to grab some momento of their former glory. And, Koisumi government is supporting it 100%. Their ambassador in Korea said it is Japan’s. Can you believe this people?
Wes, from Germay, do you know any ambassador stationed in a foreign country declaring blatantly that any part of the territory that he is stationed in actually belong to his native country? How tactless! What audacity! This is typical Japanese mindset. They are taught to be overtly aggressive against any Asian people while kowtowing to Caucasians.
Japan’s game plan is to take Dokdo case to the world court. And, while the court takes up the case, Japan will request for Korea to vacate the island and Japan will use force if necessary. In the court, having better legal skills and paying under the table money, they will get the island.
What evil schemers and land grabbers, they are!
Yes, I am a Japanese hater like anybody who suffered their tyranny which is ongoing looking at this Dokdo case. Sometimes, you have to stand up against your neighbor if the neighbor wants to rob your possession. And, Korea being a weak person compared to three powerful neighbors, she must act unpredictable and crazy sometimes just to survive. If a physically-weak person is in the middle of thug land, the only way to survive is to act crazy. In some neighborhood, reasonable talk doesn’t cut it. He does not have a negotiating power.
The case in point is this Dokdo case.
I’m a little late on this, but I just can’t let something this glaring go by without comment…
“Like Shaku mentions in a different comment section, we call Kendo, Kumdo and Karate, Tae Kwon Do. But of course, it??s just as ironic that the Japanese insist Karate is Japanese”
Karate originated from Okinawan kempo. Okinawan kempo, in turn, has its origins in kung fu. e.g. shiyoryuin = shaolin. (Those Ralph Macchio movies actually got something right.)
Is this like that “saulabi” thing? Those people probably think hwatoh is Korean too…
It’s always made me sad seeing stuff like that. It only serves to delegitimize the valid grievances Koreans have against the Japanese. e.g. Dokdo is a legitimate grievance, but Tsushima?
(Do you like how I sort of brought that back on topic?)
No, I dont think Japan is going to bring its army and colonize Korea.- Tarion
Never be too sure. History has a funny way of repeating itself.
Have you seen the movie, Hotel Rwanda? The reasonable people in Rwanda were waiting for “THE CIVILIZED COUNTRIES” such as France, Germany and the U.S. to come and stop the street killing. Damn it, it is near the end of 20th century and people are all civilized. How can peple can hack a person in broad daylight in the middle of street and nobody comes to stop it?
Nobody came. The world can be cold and cruel place. Quite different from textbook world.
Japan can invade Korea. And, nobody may stop it.
Do not worry about how the other countries look at Koreans. After all is said and done, every country must fend for itself. When your neighbor wants to take your radio, you must shout like a crazy man. It is no time to reason and talk. If he is a reasonable person, would he want your radio in the first place?
So Koreans are shouting. Cutting off fingers and burning flags. This has to be done.
Some may say “How crude and uncivilized!”. But it depends on your neighborhood. If you live in the middle of harlem, you must act this way. Believe me, it is the only way to fend off some crazy people in the world.
YoMo, no we don’t agree 100%. Hate is a strong word. I don’t hate anybody. I also believe in equally proportion measured reaction. The hate fest in Korea currently is not an equally proportioned reaction. It’s an extremely emotional overreaction, particularly at a wrong time. Burning flags no matter what country nor any reasons are justified in my book. What’s happened in Japan is dissapointing but what’s happening in Korea is down right shameful. If I had to pick from China, N.Korea and Japan as a partner, I’d rather work with Japan without even thinking about it. Instead Korea is turning away from the US/Japan camp, walking into China/N.Korea camp. Japan is strengthning their friendship with the US, while S.Korea is weakening it. This is downright sad. Don’t think I’m trying to defend Japan’s actions, I’m not. Nor should you think I hate Japan because what was written in a brief heat of emotions. I just don’t buy that the Japanese are some kind of evil green men out to take over the world.
I do not like the present psedo-liberal government in SK. Nor do I share their dream of becoming a part of upcoming Chinese Empire.
However, do not mince word. Hating the right person to hate is a good thing. It is inherent protective mechanism; even the One turned ove moneychangers’ table and beat them. Would it be funny when Koreans oversea go “la-di-da” when Japan takes a part of Korean territory?
Burn *flags! Shout slogans! Write with blood! Show emotion! After all, we are not robots. We have emotion. Japan wants to take my country’s, hmm..my birth country’s, land. Should I applaud Japan’s reasonable approach to “land robbing”?
Of course, I will not suggest to lob a missle to Japan. However, if Japan sends a landing force to Dokdo (Don’t ever think this cannot happen- if you do, you are naive), I must think different.
The Korea’s game plan has been, “just act mean and get the first one who challenges with you - be it China, Japan, Russia (or, even the U.S.)”, which I think may work in Korea’s situation
marmot, “the rocks themselves, pretty enough as they are, are not particularly important, but the territorial waters that the rocks give its owner control of are economically significant in terms of fish and potential mineral reserves on and under the sea bed.”
Marmot, you’re a little off the mark here. The benefits of these rocks are insignificant. A normal Korea-Japan bilateral relationship would result in economic benefits for Korea about 100,000 times greater than anything these rocks could provide.
I don’t have a problem with Korea’s claim to the island, but the government and the people are raising this dispute to such a fever pitch, that REAL negative economic consequences are certain to follow. But in Korea, to hell with common sense and the economy, it’s all about pride.
Marmot, “A major conflict over these rocks would be as big a diplomatic failure as the Cod War between Iceland and Great Britain during the mid 1970s.”
And nobody seems to have learned anything from this ridiculous dispute.
I had to change my id. I am still Y*o*M*o. Forgive me for the confusion.
Paul Webb, how would you react if Japan lay claim on Guam Island saying that it once belong to Japan? And, Japan wants to take the case to the World Court? Would you laugh it off?
And, to counter that, some young people in Boston burned Japanese flag. Would you say it is too much? Would tell them America is making wrong decision based on pride?
Things feel different when it happens to you.
Japan is doing to Korea and you are telling Koreans just to take it. I disagree.
if korea had a ‘normal’ relationship with japan, the economic benefits would be 100,000 times greater than it is now.’
really? could you tell me how? how will the 2nd largest economy benefit the tenth by 100,000 times? wanna know why korea can get away with it’s actions and reactions toward japan? cause japan can’t do shit specially in the economic sense. korea buys more from a 15 year sick japan than japan does from a robust korea. you don’t know what you’re talking about here, apul.
‘real negative economic impact wii follow…’
again, could you be specific? you’re problem is you think that a country that’s become the tenth largest doesn’t have any power of it’s own. japan can’t do shit to korea economically without cutting off it’s own nose. 15 years of no growth, anyone?
‘korea is becoming economically dependet on china.’
yes, so is japan though it pretends it can somehow do business with china and antagonize her at the same time. who’s really being foolish? and don’t think the us isn’t becoming dependent either, just look who has all those t bills.
It is like a Dracula movie. Korea, the South Korea(NK is already bitten by Russia and China and it has turned into a half-life), has to fight off three devils, China, Russia and Japan. The U.S. will not bite but it is not helping Korea to fend off Japan (nor China?) either.
SK must stand like a man with a torch. Whichever one lashes its tongue and gnarls its teeth at him, he must first fight. While he is fighting the other two will bite and he will become a zombie too.
But, heck, he cannot just lie down and play dead! He must get at least one. And, who knows the U.S. may suddenly come in a white horse to save SK, just like it has done in the Korean War.
All Koreans want to do is to die fighting. At least, they will get the first one who messed with them.
Scientist,
Wow, what can I say to that..
You’re not by any chance the one who chopped off his finger, are you? Can you tell me how these kinds of insane acts by an entire nation in convulsion, be productive? Let’s be pragmatic here. How is this going to make the Japanese change their minds other than confirming their suspicions of Koreans being nutty people? Don’t underestimate the Japanese when they get angry after they get wise to what’s going on in Korea. Koreans are mistaking if they think Japanese and Americans are courteous to Koreans so therefore they are weak. Korea tends to fold up like a cheap suit case when countries like China don’t give in one inch. Would you rather have that?
A