UPDATE II:
According to NoCut News (Korean), Masan City Council is telling Seoul to screw itself, i.e., it has no intention of withdrawing its “Daema Island Day” ordinance. The speaker of the council said that the central government has its job it do and Masan City its job to do, and the two should keep out of each other’s business.
UPDATE:
In a statement made in the name of the Foreign Ministry spokesman, the government has asked that Masan City repeal its “Daema Island Day” ordinance, explaining that while the patriotism behind the act was understandable, the ordinance itself was inappropriate and of no help in protecting Korean sovereignty over the Dokdo islets. What’s more, Seoul explained, it could cause unnecessary controversies, so restraint was the better part of valor.
The Foreign Minister also plans to send an official document to Masan City Council containing its request that the ordinance be repealed.
The ministry said a cool-headed, well-researched approach was required to defend Korea’s possession of the Dokdo islets, and that it would work hard to get the support of not only sensible Japanese citizens and intellectuals, but also that of the international community.
About this, a government official expressed concern that the grounds for declaring a “Daema Island Day” were still quite week, and the enactment of such an ordinance might lead to a drop in international trust in Korea. He called on Masan City to make a wise judgment.
The government measure also appears to have been taken in order to differentiate the attitude of Seoul from the of Tokyo, which sat by and watched as Shimane Prefecture enacted its “Takeshima Day” ordinance, claiming that as the work of a regional government, there was little it could do.
The government is also expressing concern about the anti-Japanese demonstrations and boycotts popping up around the country. The government understands the outrage, but worries that if such an atmosphere were to be conveyed in an unfiltered way to the Japanese public, it might provoke Japanese rightists and result in unnecessarily emotional responses on the parts of the two nations’ citizenry.
Prior to this, the Korean National Security Council released a statement Thursday calling for Korea’s position to be conveyed to Japan in a dignified and measured way as to not damage “the future of peace and coexistence” with Japan. In particular, the NSC called on Koreans to avoid excessive insults directed at Japan and to stick to proper etiquette.
A quick note on Daema-do/Tsushima: According to Mark S. Lovmo’s excellent site on the Dokdo issue, the question of sovereignty over Tsushima was apparently settled in the San Francisco Treaty:
The Japanese efforts to regain Dokdo during the negotiations of the peace treaty eventually failed. Although the 1952 San Francisco Peace Treaty between Japan and the allied powers settled sovereignty over Ullungdo (to Korea), Tsushima Island (to Japan), and Chejudo (to Korea), the ownership of Dokdo was not settled in the treaty.
However, I didn’t notice mention of Tsushima in the actual text of the San Francisco Treaty (although I’m willing to bet the issue is dealt with in associated maps and documents). It might also be worth mentioning that even if it were, neither South nor North Korea were party to the San Francisco Treaty, and for what some suggest as seriously shady reasons.
ORIGINAL POST:
The city council of the port town of Masan, South Gyeongsang Province just passed — by a vote of 29 to 1 — an ordinace declaring June. 19 “Daema Island Day.” June 19, as everyone knows, is the day in 1419 (1st year of the reign of King Sejong) when Gen. Lee Jong-mu left Masan Harbor to launch his expedition to conquer Daema Island, known to those cretins on the other side of the East Sea as Tsushima. I don’t have time at the moment to translate the ordinance or go into the history, but suffice it to say it appears the crafty city councilmen borrowed the language of Shimane Prefecture’s “Takeshima Day” ordinance.
{ 275 comments… read them below or add one }
I think we all knew that this was inevitable.
Watch the Japanese reaction to this. Or shall I say, lack thereof.
The only thing more painful than insulting a Korean’s nationa pride, is ignoring it.
This is like watching a chess match between Kasparov and a rabid monkey.
I’m most impressed by this imaginative implementation of tit-for-tat diplomacy. Subtle, yet sure to be effective.
I can’t help but think of all the arguments I’ve gotten in over the last couple of years with Korean friends over the Iraq war and conflict in general. How many times I’ve had to listen to the same dribble from drunk students who endlessly repeat worn out phrases like, “???????? ????????, ??????????? ??????????.” What are they saying now? Screaming ridiculously nationalistic crap like “??????? ????? ???????!!!” It seems they’re willing to sacrifice the benefits of good relations with a powerful neighbor over what should be a non-issue. Watching something as petty as this exand into a real crisis is disheartening and also kind of satisfying. At least America’s wars and battles are fought in the name great causes, be it freedom, democracy or national liberation. The next time one of those friends tells me that he’s willing to go to war over Dokdo at least I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing all the word vomit about peace and the senselessness of war that was dribbling out of his/her mouth a few weeks ago was the bullsh*t I knew it to be. Hypocrisy’s alive and well in North East Asia.
…that was a lot harsher than I had intended it to sound. It’s just frustrating to hear so few reasonable voices in the Korean media or public. Nationalism’s a scary thing…
All wars are fought for self-interest, including Americas. The only difference between one nation’s war and anothers is in what manner they legitimize the use of force.
Granted, of course wars are fought to advance the interest’s of the nations that fight them. It just so happens that peace, stability and liberalism are in America’s interest, and the argument that war can be used to promote those values isn’t just a fig leaf.
The value of Dokdo is of an entirely different order. What great national interest of Korea’s does conflict over those two tiny islands advance?
Corpy Carly — OK, I tend to have strong reservations about the rhetoric being employed by the Korean side about this issue, but I want to make it clear that there ARE very real issues at stake. Territorial issues are always a sensitive matter, and wars have been fought over much less significant territorial squabbles. Yes, the rocks themselves, pretty enough as they are, are not particularly important, but the territorial waters that the rocks give its owner control of are economically significant in terms of fish and potential mineral reserves on and under the sea bed. This is, so to speak, a big deal. Is it big enough for Japan and Korea to trash their bilateral relationship over? No. A major conflict over these rocks would be as big a diplomatic failure as the Cod War between Iceland and Great Britain during the mid 1970s. But just because I tend to be more than slightly irreverential when it comes to the flag waiving/flag burning is in no way meant to belittle what is at stake here. I just hope even more significant bilateral interests aren’t sacrificed to “protect” its interests in this particular issue, especially when all Korea needs to do to protect its interests in this matter is simply sit on the isles and wait.
I don’t want to take this conversation off topic, but suffice it to say America has engaged in a number of military involvements with neither the end result nor the motivation being peace, stability, or liberalism. I generally don’t believe in any sort of socio-cultural-political exceptionalism that marks America as somehow unique.
That ordinance would have looked brilliant if there weren’t all these silly whinings coming out of the asses of lot of folks in the ROK. Now that the cow’s out of the barn, it just looks petty and childish. It is obvious ROK has no interest in fighting over Daemado (unless the Tokdo/Takeshima dispute esclates). It’s really a bargaining chip of argument, just like the territorial claims over Gando in Northern China. As for the statement what real interest there is over couple of rocks… it looks like someone hasn’t been following all the posts in here. The answer is, it is worth billions, potentially hundreds of billions.
Let me first say that I haven’t followed all the posts here either, so if I’m repeating something a point someone already made, apologies. That said, I would like to append something onto Kimbob’s take on the real interest over a copule of rocks. As I think most readers are aware, Japan has still has not normalized relations with Russia over the issue of the Northern Territories, and continues to argue with the Chinese over the Senkaku (Diaoyu) Islands. Whatever the potential direct economic benefits from any of these three disputes, concession on any of the three by Japan, and the remaining two governments are going to smell blood in the water. (I don’t feel qualified enough to consider this from the perspective of the Koreans or the Russians, so perhaps a better informed reader can contribute more here?) I seem to recall reading in the comments section in one of the previous posts that someone had remarked that Japan will cave on this, but I would expect the issue will fade away sometime in the next few weeks because in spite of the rhetoric, it doesn’t appear worth permanantly damaging bi-lateral relations over this.
Well, this is an inauspicious beginning for me. I didn’t even realize I’d dropped the bar of soap for a couple of hours after first commenting. I would just like to point out that my original comment was directed more toward the insincerity of some who love to take the U.S. to task on any issue because it’s a fashionable thing to do, and use the language of peace to do it, yet when an issue pops up in their own backyard they resort to extremely provocative measures; the split between rhetoric and reality.
And yes, Dokdo could prove to be very valuable but what’s Japan going to do about it, seriously? Korea has had troops on those rocks for 50 years and last time I checked posession is 9/10 of the law. There’s no invasion being staged and I honestly think most Japanese are generally indifferent to the entire issue. Korea is responsible for making this crisis, when keeping their mouths shut would have done them much more good. To quote the authority on the subject, “all Korea needs to do to protect its interests in this matter is simply sit on the isles and wait.”
I call Tsushima an islet.
Sorry if I seemed I jumped on you. Actually, i go the meaning of your post, and I generally agree. Actually, one of the more ammusing aspects of this whole mess is contrasting the rhetoric coming out of Seoul with its advice given to Tokyo concerning the abduction issue or to the U.S. concerning the N. Korean nuke issue. Dokdo comes around, and all of a sudden, the graduate school peace studies curriculum (to borrow Nick Eberstadt’s line) doesn’t look so appealing anymore.
I really like the way Japan government is handling this – with calm and dignity (even if I think they are wrong to make the Takeshima claim) – in direct contrast to the way Korean government and her people are behaving. As an ethnic Korean, it is an embarassment to me. It’s not surprising but it’s still fearsome to see how the ideal of one nation, one people, one mind can manifest itself into a nation wide xenophobia. Before Noolji accuses everyone of taking sides with Japan, I urge the people of Korea to try to look at this from the outside, you may not like what you see. Fury without thought, and reason is only counter productive and will not persuade Japan nor any other countries that are watching this from the side. It only strengthens Japan’s case in the end.
I’m also extremely disappointed (but not surprised) by the amaturish emotional outburts by the Korean government in charge. Who do they think they are? They should be dealing with cold calculated analysis and base their foreign policies on that. They should not give into emotions expressed by the masses by pouring oil over the fire.
There’s a good reason why I don’t think this will turn into a big international problem. It’s because mature democracies like the US and Japan look upon immature democracies like S.Korea as children with temper tantrums. They don’t give S.Korea the attention (which also seems to contribute to the Korean frustration). Major advanced industrialized countries do not take S.Korea that seriously. Otherwise, can you imagine if something like this had happened in France? There’d be international condemnations of French immaturity, editorials in major international papers ridicules of how the French are acting like big babies, so on and so forth. S.Korea is lucky that they don’t get the attention. But maybe that is the problem here. S.Korea needs to be forced from the outside to look at itself critically.
I have to remind everyone that this is not the first time something like this has happened. There is a long history of this sort of outburts of temper tantrums in Korea. I’m sure that this issue too will die down after a while. As one Japanese official recently said, “Koreans get angry easy but they settle down and forget easily”. That is until the next time.
Another Japanese minister once again apologizes to the Asian population for the war time agressions. Koreans react with don’t just parrot out words, show us actions. Case in point this story today:
Two Chinese sex slaves lose appeal
Friday, March 18, 2005 at 13:51 JST
TOKYO ?? The Tokyo High Court on Friday rejected an appeal filed by two Chinese women who have sought 46 million yen in compensation from the Japanese government for being forced to serve as sex slaves for Japanese forces during World War II.
Presiding Judge Hiromu Emi said the wartime sex slavery gave the plaintiffs major physical and mental damage but they cannot claim wartime compensation under a treaty signed after the war and also due to the statute of limitations. (Kyodo News)
I don’t recall any case where a foreign victim has won a war time case against Japan. Not one. Can anybody recall?
Japan has every reason to stay quiet. Russia, China, Korea(both) all have territorial disputes with Japan, and the denizens of those countries don’t have much sympathies about Japan’s claim on those islands. Everytime Korea says “Imperial Japan,” international sentiments generally sway in favor of the past victim. A lot of people in Japan and the United States think that S Korea is the ONLY country with an axe to grind, but that is an idea that is powerful only in the echo chamber–it is just that the S Koreans, having learned fascism from the Japanese themselves, are the masters of this type of politics.
S Korea on the otherhand, the political party in power gains a lot of political capital by fussing up on the Dokdo issue. If I went on national TV in Korea, chopped off my middle finger and chuck it over the Japanese Embassy and yelled, “that’s my middle finger to YOU Hiro-fukn’-hito,” I would become a very popular person, perhaps even eligible for public office in Korea. All for my middle finger!
Rabid Monkey politics? Don’t be naive. Those SKorean politicians know exactly what they are doing, even when they are burning American flags. Uri party is doing an awful job at running SKorea, but they are indeed the masters of manipulating public sentiments to consolidate their power. It’s unfortunate that US really doesn’t understnad local politics whether it be Korea or Iraq (remember our understanding of Vietnam or worse yet Cambodia?) and it gets us every time. I think the first time it really happened was back in 1950 when they put an arbitrary line on the 38th parallel.
U.S. abandon Korea in favor of Japan? This is a conspiracy theory that is hillarious at best. As long as Kim Jong Il is around, even an anti-American S Korea is more important than Japan. The reason should be obvious, but I’ll give a hint for the newbies–shiites in Iraq.
“I would just like to point out that my original comment was directed more toward the insincerity of some who love to take the U.S. to task on any issue because it??s a fashionable thing to do, and use the language of peace to do it, yet when an issue pops up in their own backyard they resort to extremely provocative measures; the split between rhetoric and reality.”
Heh, this gave me a good laugh. How do you compare the 2 years long Iraqi war with Dokdo islands that is supposedly ‘disputed’. And please explain me why its wrong to call peace. Do you not like peace? Look at that Abu Ghraib scandal and the Marine exectution scandal, why on earth is it so wrong to say what you think, which is US involvoment in Iraq is total bullsh!t. US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country. There is definately a sharp difference between bloody war against insurgents and terrorism, with proposing to respond firmly against Japan’s claim to the isles.
As somebody pointed out above, its not so much the value of the rocks themselves thats stirring the relations of the two countries. Its about pride and belief. Also, as we shall see soon, the thousands of gallons of underwater energy resources.
Im just very *disappointed* at Americans there in Korea who seem to have little understanding of Korean mentality or culture. Heck, there are thousands in America that are crying for peace in Iraq, why cant there be in Korea?
And btw, when Koreans say Japanese invasion, it doesnt really have to be a military invasion. Cultural invasions are just as dangerous and their damages last even longer.
The old “they just don’t understand us” and cultural excuses just doesn’t wash anymore, Tarion. While that might have been the case when the country was a poor insignificant third world country. That is no longer the case. The world doesn’t have to understand Korea. Korea has to understand the world if she wants to be a global player. Koreans must broaden their views beyond Korea if they want to achieve their dreams of being a globalized nation. Globalization means much more than parroting out grand visions, that’s easy to do. Selfishness to put only Korean interests in the minds while ignoring everyone else’s is no way to go up, but down.
US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country.
Wow, democratic puppet government? Okay…
Ha ha ha ha…I live in masan,
Suppressing any desire to celebrate a rare issue for which Koreans aren’t blaming Uncle Sam (or are they?), I can’t see any good coming from this –except maybe to North Korea, which has new fissures to exploit among the 5 parties it faces in nuclear talks. Any diversion of public attention away from Uri Party incompetence will be brief. And in a country in which jingoism is the norm and moderates are extremely thin on the ground, no political party can really capitalize on this issue. They can probably try to outjingo each other, but this can have only have disastrous effects.
‘before nulji starts accusing everybody of being on japan’s side…’ kimbob
‘i agree with nulji.’ kimbob in reference to nulji’s advise to koreans on how to handle the japanese and their subtle ways of influencing the world about who they are but really aren’t.
‘everbody’, kimbob, is not on japan’s side but a good portion here most certainly are.
‘the koreans are always causing problems-koguryo, tokdo, all problems created by korea!’ dr lankova
yeah, korea’s ‘trouble making’ is reactive. that means they’re reacting to actions commited by others. i chide the koreans on the way they react not on the fact that they do react. man! who in the hell could read your book, lankova, when you’re so biased against the people you profess to care for.
slim
you really believe that? you said, “Any diversion of public attention away from Uri Party incompetence will be brief. And in a country in which jingoism is the norm and moderates are extremely thin on the ground, no political party can really capitalize on this issue.”
Fact remains that GNP sounds like hypocrites when they hackle the Japanese, and any attack on Japan is a reminder that Uri stands on the “moral high ground.” As far as Dokdo issue is concerned, I think that Uri has trounced the GNP. Think about it. I mean let’s be frank… Next Korean presidential elections, what do Korean people have as their choice? A communist or a fascist. And it’s hard to tell which is which! Lee Hoi Chang and No Moo Hyun is bad enough, but I shutter at the future of Korean politics. American people have absolutely no idea how good they got it, when our choice is Bush Jr and Kerry–and I don’t say this to praise these scoundrels. Who are they going to vote for? The incompetent lefties or the incompentent righties? No Moo Hyun doesn’t have to talk about his non-existent successes for Uri to do well. All he has to do is talk about how awful GNP is. Let’s put this terms to US politics. What has our president Bush done for us? What were his successes? But I see a lot of people scared and waving flags and thinking stuff like Patriot Act really protects them. Jingoism won!! And No Moo Hyun’s jingoism is much more powerful than Ms. Park. I agree with you on one thing–this is completely and utterly disastrous for Korea.
Declaring Daemado Day was such a bad idea that Shimane now has no reason to back off from Takeshima day regulation. Nobody outside of the peninsula would buy this.
Korea fears the rebirth of Japanese Militalism, but they don’t realized that their own totalitarianistic/social movement is as close to the pre-nati germany as it gets.
Admiral Tojo, you must be a Korea-newbie. Why do you think SK government WANTS Shimane prefecture to backoff? Every time the Anti-Japan horn blows, Uri popularity soars! If Koreans are like frogs in a well, you are like a frog outside the well thinking inside the well is a dimensional portal to Wonderland.
And of course the South Korean youths are as fascist as they get. They learned it from the best–Emperor Hirohito himself.
“The old ?橫they just don??t understand us?? and cultural excuses just doesn??t wash anymore, Tarion. ”
Indeed, sharp to the point and truth. But my comments were an answer to people’s previous comments accusing Koreans of hypocrisy. I wanted to point out that if waht they described is hypocrisy, then there is plenty more in the US and other nations. I was just very frustrated because it felt as they were accusing something which they did not have understanding of. For example, just look at this sentence:
‘Screaming ridiculously nationalistic crap like ????????? ????? ???????!!!??? It seems they??re willing to sacrifice the benefits of good relations with a powerful neighbor over what should be a non-issue.’
Lol, where is the crap? There is something that should be a non-issue?
But I like your point very much. Sometimes I even see myself partly closed to Americans or Germans, and anyother people I contact with. It seems that I like to keep something closed and different from them, soemthing that makes me Korean. But Im not sure how to change that…
“US is really just putting a democratic puppet government in an oil rich country.
Wow, democratic puppet government? Okay?? ”
Yup, an oxymoron in itself, but it is indeed very possible (and easy) to set up a democratic government as a puppet. U.S. could easily pressure Iraqi officials, given their security dependecy and support from US etc. in years to come, to do this and do that, give us a headstart on this oil field and that….
“Selfishness to put only Korean interests in the minds while ignoring everyone else??s is no way to go up, but down.”
Erm, where is the Korean interest? In fact, both parties exactly know that this dispute is against their interest.
“And of course the South Korean youths are as fascist as they get. They learned it from the best??Emperor Hirohito himself.”
Erm, dont really get the Hirohito part… But you must realize part of fascim’s definition is authoriatian rule, often right wing, and implement/supports totalitarian govt.
Tarion:
Imperial Japan molded Korea into its own image, and I’m not just talking about making Korean people talk in Japanese. And I’m not just talking about how they made us wear those hideous Prussian army clothes for boy students. Japan, indeed has many reasons to atone for, speaketh Andre Kim.
What I’m trying to say is that Park Chung Hee was a lieutenent in the Imperial Japanese Army. This is pretty representative of the Korean conservative experience.
But of course, Korean liberals are just as fascist. What I’m trying to say is that South Korean hoi polloi learned a different lesson from Japan during WWII.
Hirohito learned: don’t fight with USA. Hirohito=sun-monkey(son oh gong) and America=Buddha’s palm.
Korea learned: Hirohito is like a deranged Son Oh Gong. But Son Oh Gong kicks ass. Korea must learn the secret monkey kung fu.
And indeed, Korea learned the secret Hirohito Monkey techniques.
Pre-Japan, Koreans always looked own on “warriors” except for maybe Lee Soon Shin and my ancestor Gang Gam Chan. Post-Japan, the spirits of Nobunaga, Tokugawa, and Hideyoshi rose from Japan and possessed 3 south koreans by the name of Park Chung Hee, Chun Doo Hwan, and Roh Tae Woo. The irony of the thriving spirit of Bushido exists elsewhere in korean society. Like Shaku mentions in a different comment section, we call Kendo, Kumdo and Karate, Tae Kwon Do. But of course, it’s just as ironic that the Japanese insist Karate is Japanese, but as Professor Lankov says, that’s another story.
meant to say koreans looked down on warriors
back to the original post: i’m down here in busan, not far from masan and lots of my co-workers live in masan. let me say that it is a *huge* deal down here to the koreans. just on the car ride to work there was a lot of discussion about it. mainly, as the marmot mentioned earlier, it’s a huge source of seafood (among other things). but interestingly enough, my co-workers mentioned the seafood aspect over all other theories i have heard tossed around in regards to this. needless to say, it surprised me to hear such importance put on the abundance of fish located around these rocks.
“Virtual Wonderer” makes an important distinction, I think. One can only notice the Ouridang’s move from focusing upon the belligerence of North Korea towards focusing all attention upon Japan and placing that *ass* from the Ministry of Unification into a leading role in handling this issue, all for the purpose of furthering the Ouridang’s aims. It is sadly obvious that the leadership in the Ouridang wants to promote the image of this *ass* so as to run him for president.
Meanwhile, I hear almost nothing in the media about the North Korean execution videos. I guess they are not sexy enough for the TV PDs since they involve real-life killing of North Koreans . . .
Despite Japan being ignorantly wrong, this is movement in the wrong direction and sets the stage for more incompetence.
Oh ok, I see what you mean
hehe, you anology of the monky and buddha is amusing indeed. But I must kinda disagree on some points.
First off, Im guessing you guys mean fascists as ‘people who put their nation/ethnic identity over personal identity’ or something like that. While thats true, fascism also involvs gruesome totalitarianism and an authoritarian government. It also has left ugly histories in Germany (Nazism) and Italy (Mussolini). That is not to be found in Korea. I think ‘nationalists’ is a better term than fascists’.
And about the warriors, in fact, many war heros of Korea were officers (?????) rather than generals (?????), indeed confirming the lowly status of military in Korea (????????, ??????, ??????, ?????, ?? etc).
But to compare Park, Chun and Roh with Nobunaga, Tokugawa and Hideyoshi is quite another thing. Nobunaga was a warlord, who by deploying guns and other revolutionary tactics, succeeded in unifying the many fiefdoms (or whatever you say) into a single Japan. Hideyoshi is the very guy who invaded Korea and boasted he would conquer China and attack India. After Hideyoshi’s death, Tokugawa kicked out his young son and erected the Edo Shogunate. I don’t exactly see the correspondence of these Japanese with the Koreans you mentioned, not to mention their difference in time is about 300 years (perhaps you can explain more). While Park I respect as the very one that brought about the Miracle of Han, I dont quite see Chun and Roh as respectable characters.
I also dont see Bushido existing in Korean society. Korea today carries still its strong roots of Confuscism (?????). The respecting to elders, honoring of ancestors and showing loyalty to the country (all this, relative to other countries as Korea has also changed) are traces of it. Perhaps you can explain this as well.
And Im not sure about Tae Kwon Do, but I always knew Tae Kwon Do and Karate as seperate things (with Tae Kwon Do kicking @$$ of Karate). Do you have the link to Professor Lankov’s story? Thank you.
I just realized the true significance of this issue. At first, like everyone else I thought it was just a lot of unecessary hoopla about a ‘bunch of rocks’. Why would these fanatical koreans go to such riduculous lengths protesting land that’s not even habitable? Then someone rightly pointed out that the dispute was over the great source of resources and economic potential that surrounded the islets. But even so at this point, I thought, “So what?, why can’t they just share the wealth than risk the last 50 years of good relations? ” I wasn’t convinced.
Then I began looking at different sites that argue for both sides of the debate.
And here’s the jist of each side of the argument : The Japanese say the islets are theirs because of a ‘legal’ Treaty made in 1905. Their main argument lies in legal precedence and procedure.
The Koreans uses history to make their argument. Without going into any detail, the Koreans say they have historical records that claim Tokdo as their territory.
At this point, I would still say it may be a toss-up. What I didn’t realize was the significance of what the Japanese DIDN’T put into context. By making their ‘treaty’ legal, it in effect would legitimize Imperialist Japan (c . 1905-45) or in other words it would legitimize Japan’s past. Now THAT, is something to be alarmed about. And maybe Koreans percieved this as a reflection of Japan’s unrepentant attitude towards that part of its history.
Given this context, then I can see why one would want to cut off their fingers.
To me, its like the Germans denying the Holocaust had ever existed but using a legal facade to do so. How can the Japanese be so obtuse?
taegwondoe is about 40 years old too. naturally Koreans claim its thousands of years old. But prior to 1900, korean only used chinese martial arts. Nothing unique. That pretty much stayed the same until the 60′s when one of the first incartion of taekwando; Taesundo (chinese) was renamed taegwando. Just like most things that koreans claim is from Korea and origional, the first type of taegwando was just the renamed tasundo. This was started by a gen hong-hi choi. Naturally he got support from the korean govt, and built and developed it.
Koreans base their “1000′s of years of history with teaqwondo” with some flimisy evidence.
One piece is goguro murals. But there same murrals are found outisde of goguros realm in other parts of china.
needless to say, this is more of korean “history stealing” but no sence in going into more of that.
Elgin. Once I saw the *ass* on T.V. heading up this issue, I told my wife this will be the next President of Korea. He scores big time popularity points for this by looking like a patriot. It is obvious he is the choice of the uri party to be the next president. Maybe once he gets elected he can stop all those darn old people from voting.
will,
even in japan there is acknowledgement that korea may have had a ‘legal’ claim on tokto in 1900, five years before the shimane incorporation.
something i wrote on my blog has a link to japan times saying this.
In a conv ersation I came up that in or around the Tokto Islets there is a large deposit of natural gas. If this is true then it would be wise for either side of the Sea to make claim on the drilling rights to this gas. Both countries are oil dependent but dont have the military might to take it from other countries. So they have to take it from each other.
Still it is a perfect example of the ????,???? philosphy that is so prevalent in all aspects of society in Korea. Knee Jerk-Shoe Throwing politics has always been the standard in the ROK.
Stupid ass Koreans… man these people have all the wrong priorities. Sure, North Korea and that chubby madman in charge up there could invade at any point and turn the “Miracle on the Han” to ashes and sure the Chinese would prefer to see all the East Asian countries as colonies of the Middle Kingdom, but the ignorant South Korean are pissed and angry because some provincial Japanese politicians are laying claim to a worthless rock.
The Japanese and the US are the best things going for South Korea, without them the whole penninsula would be ruled from Pyongyang. World War 2 has been over for 60 freaking years and the worst thing Japan has done since then is send crappy music to South Korea… Japan is in no way a military threat to S. Korea but I can think of some other countries that are— its about time the South Koreans figure that out, before its too damn late.
The problem is the South Koreans are similar to the Poles. Serious I know those two countries well and what Japan is to Korea as Germany or the idea of Germany is to the Poles. The whole victim mentality and memories of suffering are so fundamental to the identity of post-war South Korea that people are willing to flip out over some minor sh-t like this for fear of being offended by the eternal enemy Japan. Something very similar happened in Poland last year when a small group of old geezers in Germany decided to sue the German and Polish governments for compensation for having been kicked out the of the one-fourth of former German territory that was turned over th Poland after WW2. The Poles went apesh-t, the Polish Parliament passed an anti-German resolution, the stupid mayor of Warsaw presented the German Embassy with a bill for 30 billion dollars for the wartime damage to Warsaw (60 years ago). And all the time in Germany nobody gave a sh!t or really even realized what was going on … why, because this original group at the start of the controversy was just a bunch of old right winged men of no importance.
But the idea of victimhood at the hands of an “evil” enemy or whatever you call it is so fundamental to the Polish (and South Korean) identity that minor issues can turn normal citizens of somewhat civilized societies into psychopaths..
This crap is insane and South Korea isn’t located in the this best neighborhood, so they really to wake up and move on and realize that as the one of the richest nations in the world they are not anyone’s victim (not yet anyway) and that partnership with Japan is probably its best hope against Chinese domination.
I still call Tsushima an islet.
Oh yeah, Marmot I don’t see you anymore on my beer runs. Did you move?
Will, you’ve nailed it.
1905 is the key word here. Japanese base their claims based on that year. I and others have pointed this out before in recent posts, not many people understood, while some here still took the side of Japan because they believe Japanese colonization of Korea was perfectly legal because the king of Korea at that time, signed the papers(of course they don’t mention that he had a gun pointed to his head). If they and the Japanese are correct, then why won’t they abide by the 1952 Sanfransico treaty that took away all Japanese colonial gained territories. Of course the Japanese say that the islets were not included in the treaty so it is still theirs legally. In other words, they took something that it wasn’t theirs in the first place, but because of technicality, it should be still theirs. You’ll also be interested that in 1947, Japan also claimed the island of Ullungdo along with Tokdo as theirs by petitioning the US occupation government. If Japan is allowed to reclaim Tokdo, they also have the legal means to reclaim Ullungdo as well.
So why the Koreans won’t take this to the international courts to solve this? Would you go to the courts to prove that your face is yours? More importantly, read this link which suggest that the International courts have a history of not taking into consideration, past imperialist agressions (any chance that’s because the judges are mostly made up from countries that were past colonial powers themeselves?). This is based on past similiar cases as mentioned here.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page10.html
Koreans are furious and many are convinced that Japan is up to no good again. In my opinion there is no real ulterior cynister motive of Japan (with the recent rise of the extreme nationalist rightwing in Japan), but it does show how unrepentant Japan is towards their past aggressions in Asia.
Wes from Germany,
Comparing/equating Germany with Japan? PLEASE.
Can I say something about that?
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page4.html
“…The ministry said a cool-headed, well-researched approach was required to defend Korea??s possession of the Dokdo islets, and that it would work hard to get the support of not only sensible Japanese citizens and intellectuals, but also that of the international community.”
Reason descends on the land of the morning calm. What changed their minds?
Kimbob, what’s wrong with Wes’ analogy? Please explain.
I am pleasantly surprised by the Foreign Ministry’s level-headed handling of the Daemado thing in Masan. Well done! Taking the moral high ground and cleverly done at that. That is exactly how Korea should be going about this. Make Japan look bad by comparison and no need to lose any fingers!
koreans should show as much interest into the plight of starving NK’s and the gulag labor camps which their brethren are in
similar to the 2002 hatefest towards americans after the girls were killed
all blind emotional nationalism
period
i mean for god sake setting yourself on fire over a rock???
Kimbob,
What the hell are talking about??
Actually I was not equating Germany and Japan, I was comparing Poland and Korea or did you miss that some how. But I would be very interested to know why you can’t equate Japan and Germany’s actions in WW2- let me guess the holocaust, hmm well I think the millions of Chinese murdered by the Japanese army might disagree if they hadn’t been butchered. Both countries, Nazi Germany and Japan during WW2 were agressive, expansionist states ruled by dicatorships with grand ideas of building vast empires and scant regard for human rights and both were responsible for the murder of millions of innocent people- or don’t Asian lives count quite as much as Western ones.
So Kimbob, not that this is the actually subject of this thread or anything that I wanted to discuss, but why can’t you “dare” equate the two countries.
Corpy Carly, or Wes,
in Germany, people aren’t sitting around reminicing how the good old days were with Hitler, writing up books on how it achieved great acomplishments for the overall good of Europe, shouting Zieg Heil as they pass bills reclaiming past colonial territories which did not belong to them before they stole it, and in all essence, rubbing it in. Has Koizumi ever come out and say “shut up” to all his right wing nutcases, like the German Chancellors have in the past and present whenever their right wing make noise? Has any foreigner war victim ever won a case in Japan, as have in the German courts, in a country where they have accomodated and modified the laws so that the victims who sue, stand half a chance? Or do they hide behind unflexible unyielding Japanese law that says statue of limitation? They can’t even get righful backwages for heavens sake! How many memorials do you see for the victims of the biological Unit of 731, as in Germany where you see memorials for the victims of Nazi Germany? Most Japanese don’t even know that such experiments existed even, let alone have memorials! Any memorials for 20,000+ Koreans who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Oh yeah, there’s one, it’s full of cob webs, weeds, and hidden well away from the Japanese public. Any memorials of Koreans who were massacred for causing the 1923 Tokyo earthquake?
Of course not, it’s a country where politicians who claim Koreans/foreigners will riot in the streets if there’s another earthquake, not only gets elected time in and time again, but is highly popular. For instance do they have in Germany, hate trucks going around the neighborhood shouting thru megaphones “get out dirty Jews!”, as there are in Japan who shout “get out dirty Koreans!”?? Of course not, because Germany outlawed these nutcases and most Germans are genuinely ashamed of them. In Japan they get elected.
In Germany, many many war criminals were found and were punished. In Japan, only 12 were ever found to be war criminals. They are buried in a national war shrine honoring the Nazis.. oops I mean those Japanese war criminals.
Need I go on? I better stop here before I get a heart attack. But please tell me why you think Japan is as nearly repentant as Germany because I just don’t see it.
mcnut,
I very much agree with you that “koreans should show as much interest into the plight of starving NK??s and the gulag labor camps which their brethren are in”. You’re absolutely right that S.kOrea should be worrying more about NK than history and being angry against a country that will never change and is not a military threat.
But I can’t just sit by and say nothing when people are excusing Japan. What am I supposed to do, agree with them? For sure, overreactions in Korea are just as bad and I do not agree, and I wish this whole mess never got started. But that also doesn’t make what Japan is doing right as well. They can’t get scott free.
Kimbob,
I see your point but the fact remains, and this is the important thing here, Japan is NOT an expansionist militarist empire or a military threat to Korea. I agree the Japanese need to work on coming to terms with their actions WW2 and before and sure, they could learn a lot from Germany but seriously that aside the Japan of 2005 really does not have much in common with the Japan of pre-war and wartime era.
All I am saying is yes the Korean have a right to be a little pissed that Japan has not fully atoned or better said apoligized for its WW2 crimes but the outcry in Korea is totally over the top, considering Japan is in no position to bully South Korea around anymore, much less reoccupy the country. And this unhealthy fixation and hate of Imperial pre-war Japan is totally ridiculous considering that that state has not existed for 60 years. Modern Japan’s failure to apoligize or compensate is certainly not behind this fanaticism, like I said the Koreans can be pissed by that but the reactions to this Dokdo issue go beyond pissed- THIS madness is about the Colonial period and WW2, which the Koreans, who have convinced themselves that they are a nation of victims, still “fetishize” (and I use that word specifically) just like the Poles in Europe.
No, Japan may not be as repentant as Germany, but just like Germany, modern Japan is a wealthy comfortable middle class democratic society that has not invaded anything in 60 years and poses no military threat to its immediate neighbors – and nobody, especially the Koreans should forget that.
Don’t get me wrong Wes, I agree with you maybe about 95% of what you say. But as to this:
“No, Japan may not be as repentant as Germany, but just like Germany, modern Japan is a wealthy comfortable middle class democratic society that has not invaded anything in 60 years and poses no military threat to its immediate neighbors – and nobody, especially the Koreans should forget that. ”
Are you sure about that? For now, yeah you’re right. But what about in the future? After all, Japan has whitewashed their history. People don’t remember nor care – a nation that has never learned from history. How can we be sure what will start to happen if let’s say China starts moving in? What will happen NK increasingly becomes more aggressive? What will happen if the Right wing take over the government, as they are about to do? Japan is also as a nation tired of all the raggings about pre-WWII, it’s ripe for a nationalist revival. This is a boon to the right wingers who are gaining momentum. How do we know the scenes of Shimane prefecture politicians shouting the war time cry of “Banzai!” isn’t going to be more frequent? Japan already has a powerful military, with the influence of US starting to wane in the region. How do you know for sure that what you say will be continued?
I wouldn’t worry so much about Japan, except for the fact that
1) they have been attacking and killing Koreans throughout the millenia either through invasions or through too many to count pillagings of the coastal areas.
2) they have not learned nor repented their roles in WWII so there’s still a chance they will repeat their mistakes.
From the Japan Times (pay particular attention to the paragraph to the stars):
Shimane touts ‘Takeshima Day’
MATSUE, Shimane Pref. (Kyodo) The Shimane Prefectural Assembly on Wednesday designated Feb. 22 as “Takeshima Day” in a bid to exert Japan’s sovereignty over the South Korea-controlled group of islets.
News photo
Spectators shout “banzai” Wednesday in the gallery of the Shimane Prefectural Assembly after an ordinance designating Feb. 22 as “Takeshima Day” was passed.
The move has cast a pall on warming bilateral relations as the two countries mark the 40th anniversary of the restoration of diplomatic ties.
Sponsors of the “Takeshima Day” bill said the ordinance is aimed at raising public awareness that the uninhabited islets between Shimane and South Korea belong to Japan.
The move has prompted strong protests and a public outcry in South Korea, which calls the islets Tok-do.
***********************************************************
The islets were placed under Korean sovereignty in 1900. Shimane incorporated the islands into the prefecture in 1905, after Japan seized them during the Russo-Japanese war.
***********************************************************
Shimane Gov. Nobuyoshi Sumita said in a statement, “I would like the central government to use this opportunity to actively work to establish (Japan’s) territorial rights over Takeshima.”
The two small islets have a total area of 0.23 sq. km.
South Korea has had a coast guard garrison on the larger islet since 1954, according to the Foreign Ministry. Tokyo claims Takeshima is historically Japanese territory.
The Shimane ordinance states that South Korea has “illegally occupied Takeshima for half a century and has pushed forward with moves to strengthen its effective control over them.”
In Seoul, the South Korean government condemned Shimane’s move, saying it will “take every measure possible” unless the ordinance is scrapped.
The Foreign Affairs and Trade Ministry said in a statement that Japan “would be held fully responsible for any incident that may occur.”
Ministry spokesman Lee Kyu Hyung said the ordinance has an “impure intention to impair our sovereignty over Tok-do, which is part of our territory historically, geographically and according to international law.”
South Korea also said it lifted travel restrictions on its nationals to the islets effective the same day in what was seen as a retaliatory measure. North Kyungsang Province said it would sever sister-city relations with Shimane Prefecture.
The bill was submitted by 35 of the assembly’s 38 members. Of the 37, excluding the chairman, who voted Wednesday, 33 supported the bill and two opposed. One Japanese Communist Party member abstained and another member was absent due to illness.
When those in favor stood to show their support for the bill, people in the gallery, believed to be members of nationalist groups, applauded and shouted, “banzai!”
Before the vote, a Seoul assemblyman visiting the Shimane assembly hall was seized by police. Choi Jae Ik, who leads a South Korean group asserting South Korea’s territorial rights over the islets, was seen holding a box cutter and a sheet of white paper just before 9 a.m. near the entrance of the assembly hall.
He later told police he had been planning to cut his finger and write a statement in blood.
The assembly decided to deny entry to the assembly building by Choi and another member of his group following the incident.
Choi was holding a banner that read in Korean, “Tok-do is our territory.” He said he requested a meeting with Hajime Miyazumi, chairman of the prefectural assembly, but was denied.
Choi said, “An act of aggression is being decided in a closed chamber.”
South Korea has protested the move by canceling a visit to Japan by foreign minister Ban, and South Koreans have protested outside the Japanese Embassy in Seoul for days.
While the government claims that it is concerned by the diplomatic row with South Korea, it says it has no power to intervene in the Shimane assembly because the vote falls under the jurisdiction of a local government.
The “Takeshima Day” ordinance calls for promoting public activities to raise the nation’s awareness of the islets. It calls for the “early establishment” of Japan’s territorial rights over the South Korea-controlled islets.
The prefectural government says that Feb. 22 this year marked the 100th anniversary of the issuance of a prefectural notice that declared the islets part of Shimane in line with a Cabinet decision. Also in 1905, the signing of the Korean-Japanese Convention gave Japan full administrative control over Korea’s foreign affairs.
Kajitani heads the secretariat of a group calling for the “protection” of Takeshima.
Yoji Nozu, 64, questioned the move. “What’s the point in designating such a day in this unilateral fashion?” he asked. “We should also listen to South Korea’s opinions.”
The Japan Times: March 17, 2005
And the Japanese people would be foolish to isolate Korea, a nation which punches far above its weight class militarily, from whatever multilateral alliance develops in East Asia to counter China’s “soft rise”. It’s just that except for a group of morons in a backwater regional assembly, the Japanese have done very little to isolate anybody. Do you really see hordes of Japanese invading Korea on the horizon, whatever their history? Also, it seems to me the last invading force seen in South Korea wore Chinese uniforms and also happen to be responsible for the continued separation of the Korean state (and subsequent death of upward of at least 2 million Koreans). Where’s the trademark Korean grudge against their gigantic neighbor? Come to think of it, I haven’t heard too many apologies out of Beijing for that crime against the Korean people either. I wonder what their textbooks say about it all…
thanks kimbob,
now maybe people will start paying attention to _my_ blog, too!
if i write it out, my message will be rejected as spam, but it’s norapark and then a dot, followed by blogspot, then another dot, and then com.
it’s _that_ simple!
Corpy Carly, no question there’s the hypocrisy favouring China, and I’ve said in the past on many occasions, my frustrations with this. In my opinion, China is a much greater threat than Japan. All I’m saying is that there is still a chance Japan can evolve into a right wing military country flexing its muscles because they never learned their lessons, plus they have a bad habit of attacking Korea throuought their history – only minus the last 60 years. It can start with Tokdo – that will eslcate into a full blown war (which is no longer unfathomable as once thought). If they want to take it, there’s not much stopping them because they have a far stronger navy. Japan’s defense budget is second highest in the world, militarily they can quickly build up a super-power tanker, as they already have a very formidable military. The chances are remote that the right wingers like Ishihara Shintara and minister Abe, who are slowly taking over Japan, will go to that length. All I’m trying to say is that it’s still a possiblity, not likely but still possible. Of course I agree Korea’s immediate enemies are North Korea and China.
The reason why Korea is hypocritical toward Japan and China is this. Korea is increasingly dependent on China economically. Not just exports from Korea to China, but also many made-in China products are in fact are made by Korean companies which moved to China. Korea is the second highest investor in China. There is an economic synergy that is making both countries prosperous. For that reason, of course all the nutcases in Korea won’t dare to jeapordize the goose that lays the golden egg. On the other hand, Japan is an important trading country for Korea, but not as critical as China. Korea buys far more from Japan, than Japan buys from Korea.
I love the way koreans or kyopos like norapark or kimbob will clinig on any piece “evidence” to support their postion.
Kimbob: Look everyone the Japan times says takashima belongs to Korea because…..
Norapark: ohhohhohh daehan min gook daehan mingook look look what the japan times said.. ohhhohhh
Dude: The japan times also says the body of water between japan and korea is called Sea of Japan.
Dimbob norapark: The japan times is lie. The japan times just wants to steal hisotry.
Anyway, if you read the article, you will notice that japanese people are not all of the same opinion on the issue of takashima. Koreans and kyopos are all of one opinion.
norapark/Kimbob:
I cannot comment on what the one of many Japanese sites is telling you. I suggest you to read the Edict no.41 itself.
The edict describes two islands besides Ullungdo, Chukdo and Sekdo. It’s obvious that they are today’s Chukdo and KwanYindo, both right by Ullungdo. Daehan Shinjishi, a book written by a Korean intellectual Zhang ShiYuen with much more modern-day scientific knowledge in 1907, notes the Ullung area is between 130’35″ and 130’45″. Dokdo is not a part of it.
I was born a Korean. Now, I am a KoreanAmerican. Why do you ask? You think I may be a North Korean commie? Well, I like to hack off Kim Jongil’s head if I have chance. I do not believe that to be a sin. I don’t think that will fit the catergory of “murder”; it will be more like “disinfection”.
Yep, it had to be “Banzai!”. What else? “Banzai!” to kill the U.S. marines. And, “Banzai!” kill and subjugate Koreans once more. The Japanese believe they have weapons to do it. But, what about the personnel? People who are willing to shed their blood and fight on even when their buddies die off.
Does Japan have those soldiers? Korea does.
dude (in reference to above):
i am not “clinging to any piece of ‘evidence’ to support my position.” what i was trying to point out is that the 1905 shimane decision is not the only “modern” claim to the island by a country. the fact that korea’s 1900 claim is mentioned (without criticism) in the japan times does lend legitimacy to it to some degree.
dude, you also have me saying, “ohhohhohh daehan min gook daehan mingook look look what the japan times said.. ohhhohhh.”
silly dude, i would never say “daehan.” maybe “taehan.” i do say “ohhohhohh,” but only when i’m talking about the chemical composition of water molecules.
dude, you’re not doing yourself any good by lumping all kyopo together or by dismissing us all as some sort of hive. there are a lot of things i don’t like about this issue and a lot of things i disagree with. things that may surprise you, given that you seem to think our brains all look alike.
Stop! Reading back the last several posts, I’m starting to almost sound like the Japan haters ripping up Japanese flags in Korea. OK that’s it. You won’t get anymore defensive posts from me on this subject.
“needless to say, this is more of korean ?橫history stealing?? but no sence in going into more of that.”
If you want to say something ridiculous, please state some detail in your reasoning. IMO, you are one of those who still have the colonial mindset of a small tiny Korea that was always and will always be weak and helpless.
“but the ignorant South Korean are pissed and angry because some provincial Japanese politicians are laying claim to a worthless rock.”
Urg, please, why dont you just understand why SK government is making a big deal out of this. First off, these rocks, according to an article has tons of oil buried deep in the ocean that will be able to use with future technology (they are planning on searching the area, so we will get details sometime). Second, as some poeple have said, the Uri party is using this issue to increase their popularity. Yup, just politics. And Japan does, too, risk relations with Korea (perhaps not as much), and this dispute works against both parties. -_-
“but seriously that aside the Japan of 2005 really does not have much in common with the Japan of pre-war and wartime era.”
Exactly, and thats why people are trying to stop Japan from going to a pre-war state. See, if you let these textbooks that teach Koreans are inferior and Japanese rule has benefited them, in the next few decades we will have a whole generation of people who think colonization was OK. Indeed, Japanese right wing idiots have been working the crap out of them to justify colonization and war crimes. No, I dont think Japan is going to bring its army and colonize Korea. But there are plenty other ways to show imperialism.
Kimbob, Tarion.
I am glad that there are people like yourselves who know about Korea so much. You guys 100% correct. I am much older and my English writing isn’t great. So I will summarize my views. This may be what Korean nationals feel about this issure.
The Japanese are not quiet and cultured people as they seem to portray themselves to Europeans. They do fantasize frequently about their “glorious past”. The case in point is this “Dokdo” case. It is a clear attempt(they started it) to grab some land if they can. While NK is still threatening and America is looking the other way, these people wants to grab some momento of their former glory. And, Koisumi government is supporting it 100%. Their ambassador in Korea said it is Japan’s. Can you believe this people?
Wes, from Germay, do you know any ambassador stationed in a foreign country declaring blatantly that any part of the territory that he is stationed in actually belong to his native country? How tactless! What audacity! This is typical Japanese mindset. They are taught to be overtly aggressive against any Asian people while kowtowing to Caucasians.
Japan’s game plan is to take Dokdo case to the world court. And, while the court takes up the case, Japan will request for Korea to vacate the island and Japan will use force if necessary. In the court, having better legal skills and paying under the table money, they will get the island.
What evil schemers and land grabbers, they are!
Yes, I am a Japanese hater like anybody who suffered their tyranny which is ongoing looking at this Dokdo case. Sometimes, you have to stand up against your neighbor if the neighbor wants to rob your possession. And, Korea being a weak person compared to three powerful neighbors, she must act unpredictable and crazy sometimes just to survive. If a physically-weak person is in the middle of thug land, the only way to survive is to act crazy. In some neighborhood, reasonable talk doesn’t cut it. He does not have a negotiating power.
The case in point is this Dokdo case.
I’m a little late on this, but I just can’t let something this glaring go by without comment…
“Like Shaku mentions in a different comment section, we call Kendo, Kumdo and Karate, Tae Kwon Do. But of course, it??s just as ironic that the Japanese insist Karate is Japanese”
Karate originated from Okinawan kempo. Okinawan kempo, in turn, has its origins in kung fu. e.g. shiyoryuin = shaolin. (Those Ralph Macchio movies actually got something right.)
Is this like that “saulabi” thing? Those people probably think hwatoh is Korean too…
It’s always made me sad seeing stuff like that. It only serves to delegitimize the valid grievances Koreans have against the Japanese. e.g. Dokdo is a legitimate grievance, but Tsushima?
(Do you like how I sort of brought that back on topic?)
No, I dont think Japan is going to bring its army and colonize Korea.- Tarion
Never be too sure. History has a funny way of repeating itself.
Have you seen the movie, Hotel Rwanda? The reasonable people in Rwanda were waiting for “THE CIVILIZED COUNTRIES” such as France, Germany and the U.S. to come and stop the street killing. Damn it, it is near the end of 20th century and people are all civilized. How can peple can hack a person in broad daylight in the middle of street and nobody comes to stop it?
Nobody came. The world can be cold and cruel place. Quite different from textbook world.
Japan can invade Korea. And, nobody may stop it.
Do not worry about how the other countries look at Koreans. After all is said and done, every country must fend for itself. When your neighbor wants to take your radio, you must shout like a crazy man. It is no time to reason and talk. If he is a reasonable person, would he want your radio in the first place?
So Koreans are shouting. Cutting off fingers and burning flags. This has to be done.
Some may say “How crude and uncivilized!”. But it depends on your neighborhood. If you live in the middle of harlem, you must act this way. Believe me, it is the only way to fend off some crazy people in the world.
YoMo, no we don’t agree 100%. Hate is a strong word. I don’t hate anybody. I also believe in equally proportion measured reaction. The hate fest in Korea currently is not an equally proportioned reaction. It’s an extremely emotional overreaction, particularly at a wrong time. Burning flags no matter what country nor any reasons are justified in my book. What’s happened in Japan is dissapointing but what’s happening in Korea is down right shameful. If I had to pick from China, N.Korea and Japan as a partner, I’d rather work with Japan without even thinking about it. Instead Korea is turning away from the US/Japan camp, walking into China/N.Korea camp. Japan is strengthning their friendship with the US, while S.Korea is weakening it. This is downright sad. Don’t think I’m trying to defend Japan’s actions, I’m not. Nor should you think I hate Japan because what was written in a brief heat of emotions. I just don’t buy that the Japanese are some kind of evil green men out to take over the world.
I do not like the present psedo-liberal government in SK. Nor do I share their dream of becoming a part of upcoming Chinese Empire.
However, do not mince word. Hating the right person to hate is a good thing. It is inherent protective mechanism; even the One turned ove moneychangers’ table and beat them. Would it be funny when Koreans oversea go “la-di-da” when Japan takes a part of Korean territory?
Burn *flags! Shout slogans! Write with blood! Show emotion! After all, we are not robots. We have emotion. Japan wants to take my country’s, hmm..my birth country’s, land. Should I applaud Japan’s reasonable approach to “land robbing”?
Of course, I will not suggest to lob a missle to Japan. However, if Japan sends a landing force to Dokdo (Don’t ever think this cannot happen- if you do, you are naive), I must think different.
The Korea’s game plan has been, “just act mean and get the first one who challenges with you – be it China, Japan, Russia (or, even the U.S.)”, which I think may work in Korea’s situation
marmot, “the rocks themselves, pretty enough as they are, are not particularly important, but the territorial waters that the rocks give its owner control of are economically significant in terms of fish and potential mineral reserves on and under the sea bed.”
Marmot, you’re a little off the mark here. The benefits of these rocks are insignificant. A normal Korea-Japan bilateral relationship would result in economic benefits for Korea about 100,000 times greater than anything these rocks could provide.
I don’t have a problem with Korea’s claim to the island, but the government and the people are raising this dispute to such a fever pitch, that REAL negative economic consequences are certain to follow. But in Korea, to hell with common sense and the economy, it’s all about pride.
Marmot, “A major conflict over these rocks would be as big a diplomatic failure as the Cod War between Iceland and Great Britain during the mid 1970s.”
And nobody seems to have learned anything from this ridiculous dispute.
I had to change my id. I am still Y*o*M*o. Forgive me for the confusion.
Paul Webb, how would you react if Japan lay claim on Guam Island saying that it once belong to Japan? And, Japan wants to take the case to the World Court? Would you laugh it off?
And, to counter that, some young people in Boston burned Japanese flag. Would you say it is too much? Would tell them America is making wrong decision based on pride?
Things feel different when it happens to you.
Japan is doing to Korea and you are telling Koreans just to take it. I disagree.
if korea had a ‘normal’ relationship with japan, the economic benefits would be 100,000 times greater than it is now.’
really? could you tell me how? how will the 2nd largest economy benefit the tenth by 100,000 times? wanna know why korea can get away with it’s actions and reactions toward japan? cause japan can’t do shit specially in the economic sense. korea buys more from a 15 year sick japan than japan does from a robust korea. you don’t know what you’re talking about here, apul.
‘real negative economic impact wii follow…’
again, could you be specific? you’re problem is you think that a country that’s become the tenth largest doesn’t have any power of it’s own. japan can’t do shit to korea economically without cutting off it’s own nose. 15 years of no growth, anyone?
‘korea is becoming economically dependet on china.’
yes, so is japan though it pretends it can somehow do business with china and antagonize her at the same time. who’s really being foolish? and don’t think the us isn’t becoming dependent either, just look who has all those t bills.
It is like a Dracula movie. Korea, the South Korea(NK is already bitten by Russia and China and it has turned into a half-life), has to fight off three devils, China, Russia and Japan. The U.S. will not bite but it is not helping Korea to fend off Japan (nor China?) either.
SK must stand like a man with a torch. Whichever one lashes its tongue and gnarls its teeth at him, he must first fight. While he is fighting the other two will bite and he will become a zombie too.
But, heck, he cannot just lie down and play dead! He must get at least one. And, who knows the U.S. may suddenly come in a white horse to save SK, just like it has done in the Korean War.
All Koreans want to do is to die fighting. At least, they will get the first one who messed with them.
Scientist,
Wow, what can I say to that..
You’re not by any chance the one who chopped off his finger, are you? Can you tell me how these kinds of insane acts by an entire nation in convulsion, be productive? Let’s be pragmatic here. How is this going to make the Japanese change their minds other than confirming their suspicions of Koreans being nutty people? Don’t underestimate the Japanese when they get angry after they get wise to what’s going on in Korea. Koreans are mistaking if they think Japanese and Americans are courteous to Koreans so therefore they are weak. Korea tends to fold up like a cheap suit case when countries like China don’t give in one inch. Would you rather have that?
All Korea has to do is to shut the fuck up, hold onto the island, and strengthen the national defense. Japan can’t dare to do anything. But as long as Korea keeps yapping away from the side, there will be rising anti-Korean feelings in Japan, strengthening the Japanese nationalists who might then really attack the island. No, I’m not advocating weak Korea policy. What I’m saying is Korea should be strengthening their position quietly, not through intimidations, threats, and demonstrations. This childish behaviour impresses nobody, it’s not a sign of strength but weakness, it’s counterproductive and drives a permanent wedge in the alliance. North Korea must be laughing behind the scenes because it looks like the weak link in the alliance is S.Korea.
As frustrating it is for Japan’s intransigency towards their colonial aggressions, we have to face the reality that we can’t force them to come clean. They have to do it themselves (which I think is unlikely). Let’s take the high moral road. Korea shouldn’t forget, but forgive them. Korea and Japan can be friends, they have much in common. It’s best to be friends then enemies. This is beneficial for both sides. It’s insanity to even think about throwing away this partnership for pride.
“No, I dont think Japan is going to bring its army and colonize Korea.- Tarion
Never be too sure. History has a funny way of repeating itself. ”
According to treaties and documents (dont ask me which ones), US is responsible to kick Japan’s a$$ if it attacks first. Heh, actually amusing thing to think about, isnt it?
Heh, if they do Ill welcome it.
“It is like a Dracula movie.”
“All Korea has to do is to shut the fuck up, hold onto the island, and strengthen the national defense. Japan can??t dare to do anything. But as long as Korea keeps yapping away from the side, there will be rising anti-Korean feelings in Japan, strengthening the Japanese nationalists who might then really attack the island.”
Let me ask you this: do you think the current government is loud and crazy? Sure, there are some nutty civilians out their chopping their fingers off, but what did the government do? All it did was loosen the restrictions to Dokdo, say Japanese are trying to justify colonization and take the stand that Korea will not tolerate such thing. In fact, it has asked Masan to stop its Daemado Day (I dont give a sh!t about wehn Japanese government says Takeshima Day is a local thing, something they cant do anything about, lol) and discouraged Anti-Japanese provements. Nor did it send Ban to shout ‘Dokdo is Korean territory’ in Tokyo. Although what the media reports or the surroundings in Korea may suggest Koreans are again overacting, I think its only the everyday people. Koreans arent stupid idiots. Their government has pleased the people by taking some tangible actions, yet has remained quiet and calm (more quiet and calm than most people here think and believe).
Tarion
scientist, “Paul Webb, how would you react if Japan lay claim on Guam Island saying that it once belong to Japan? And, Japan wants to take the case to the World Court? Would you laugh it off?”
I would laugh it off. There’s a squadron of B-2 bombers in Guam. Japan can claim all of Alaska for all I care. It isn’t about who “claims” what, but who “controls.” Now if Japan would be willing to use military force to “restore her rights to Alaska,” then I’d have a problem.
Which is one reason why I don’t understand why Koreans are getting so excited about this. Korea already controls Tokdo, like the U.S. controls Alaska. So relax, Japan is not going to use military force to take the islands. Just ignore ‘em. Most Japanese have never even heard of “Takeshima.” And no, I don’t think the World Court should get involved in this. I don’t see why Korea should lose Tokdo on a “50/50 coin flip.”
noolji, “if korea had a ??normal?? relationship with japan, the economic benefits would be 100,000 times greater than it is now. really? could you tell me how?”
Annual trade betwen Korea and Japan is about $45 billion. My guess is that the annual revenues from Tokdo is about half a million dollars. That comes to 100,000 times.
noolji, “you??re problem is you think that a country that??s become the tenth largest doesn??t have any power of it??s own. japan can??t do shit to korea economically”
No trade between Korea and Japan would hurt both countries, but it would hurt Korea more. Japan’s GDP is seven times larger than Korea’s. It would be easier for Japan to sustain the loss of Korea than Korea of Japan.
Japan losing Korea’s trade would be like Korea losing Singapore’s trade.
Japan can??t dare to do anything -Kimbob
They are doing it already. The next step is the Japanese assembly to vote on the resolution and it will go to the International Court.
I wouldn’t say Koreans to shut “the fuck off”. They are as smart as you. You were brought up in the West and think all Koreans are savages. Maybe some Koreans you knew were. I think you have some issues here.
Koreans know just enough loudness. After the next week’s soccer match, things may die down a bit. However, in the near future when the Japs land on Dokdo, all bets are off.
I disagree. Who were the one that went to Tokyo to chop off their fingers in protest? They were representives within the Korean government. The Korean government has done everything it can to protest to the Japanese government after the Takeshima bill went through, including calling in the Japanese ambassador to Korea. Why ask him the question who does the island belong to? Of course he’ll say it belongs to Korea. NOT. The media picked up the cue of course and now we have a run away freight train. The Korean government made this into a crisis, the media followed the Korean government. The Korean government is not really known currently to be shall we say, experienced with diplomacy. From the President on down, it has opened its mouth at the wrong times, gagging, offending the US on numerous occasions, now they’re doing it again with Japan. Roh’s government can’t control their running motor mouth, it’s jeopardizing Korea’s security. Good governments check their emotions at bay when they make foreign policies. Not in Korea, which is getting to be a very bad habit that one day it’s going to blow up in their face.
Paul Webb, Koreans do not have squadron of B-2 bombers so take off clothes, lie down and enjoy what comes next? Is that it?
Koreans will do anything including self-destruction to fight off the Japanese. Once is enough. Never to be a slave again. You must value this Korean resolve. I think you are a military man like myself and you must respect this will of Korean people to determine their future even if the future looks insurmountable. Dokdo could be Korea’s Alamo.
And, do not take SK’s military so lightly. Japan will have hard time taking SK. Who knows China may jump in and take a whip at Japan as well. So, Japan Beware!
YoMo,
here we go again, someone attacking my background, instead of arguing the points. Now I’m getting this from all sides.
Yes I was brought up in the West, but I also was brought up in Korea. Eventhough I live in the West, I still have a large stake in what’s happening in Korea. And I am concerned. Living overseas has given me a broader perspective than what I would have been afforded if I had to live in Korea all my life. Koreans in Korea are not so lucky. They can only depend on what their media feed them.
Now what about you YoMo, your flag seems to suggest similiar circumstances as you accuse me of.
Hello from Japan, let me say something about San Francisco Treaty, Tsushima and Takeshima/Dokdo, especially about the quote from another site that says, “The Japanese efforts to regain Dokdo during the negotiations of the peace treaty eventually failed.”
As you found out, the treaty does not mention Tsushima and Takeshima/Dokdo as Japan’s. What the treaty says is what Japan gave up. They are Chejudo, Ullungdo and Kommundo. In my interpretation, these islands are the borders of the two countries. I think this method of picking up the outermost area is natural to define the area of something, in this case a country. Therefore, I think that in the treaty Takeshima/Dokdo is treated as Japan’s.
I want to point out as well that Japan didn’t fail to include Takeshima/Dokdo in Japanese territories in the treaty. Rather I think South Korea failed to negotiate to include Takeshima/Dokdo in what Japan gave up.
In the first several drafts of the treaty, Takeshima/Dokdo was included in the area where Japan had to abandon. So Japan tried to reverse the situation and succeeded. In the sixth draft, Takeshima/Dokdo was excluded from the abandoned area. So South Korea negotiated with the allied nations to include Takeshima/Dokdo in the area where Japan had to give up.
This effort failed. The situation of Takeshima/Dokdo in the succeeding drafts remained the same, and the Peace Treaty was signed in 1952.
orgrecrest, I didn’t think I’d actually see it but you just proved to me that you used nothing but a legal basis to support the Japanese argument.
If you didn’t know already, the Koreans didn’t have the sovereign power to conduct nor approve of the 1905 Treaty. So the contract is null and void. Unless… Hmmm….unless you’re saying the events and actions leading to WORLD WAR 2 and Imperialistic Japan’s hold over Korea had legality!!?????
YoMo
Japan can??t dare to do anything -Kimbob
They are doing it already. The next step is the Japanese assembly to vote on the resolution and it will go to the International Court.
That isn’t quite true. Both parties have to agree before an issue can be taken before the International Court.
“Koreans will do anything including self-destruction to fight off the Japanese.”
Such as tatooing their bodies and obtaining US citizenship to avoid military service? Make no mistake about the well-established fact that what we Koreans do best is run our mouths and pretend to act brave in large, reassuring crowds.
In fact when push comes to shove, the established pattern is that we just roll over, as we did with the Chinese and then the Japanese and now North Korea. In the final analysis, our national interests are just not as important as our personal interests.
“Once is enough. Never to be a slave again. You must value this Korean resolve. I think you are a military man like myself and you must respect this will of Korean people to determine their future even if the future looks insurmountable.”
What does Dokdo have to do with detemining our own future? It is a rhetorical issue in the ongoing war of words and perceptions that we are always involved in. The basic Korean approach to proving a case consists in outshouting an opponant rather than outreasoning him. Korean means of self assertion – which pervades our society at all levels from the educational to the diplomatic is a technique which is sometimes referred to as Hitler’s “big lie”.
Dokdo could be Korea??s Alamo.”
Yes, it could be. As could almost any other of our popular responses to international issues. What I mean is, the more we shout the less convincing our case becomes. Our judgment has already been tarnished by our inappropriate and hysterical popular reactions on numerous issues involving to international relations, upon our foolish tendency to take credit for cultural things we obtained from other natiopns, such as martial arts, written language, etc.
Observe that the almost universal stated media reaction of non-Koreans about Dokdo is skepticism about the way that we are handling the issue, which opens the door to doubting the veracity of our claims when a calm official response would have been more than sufficient.
So, yes, Dok Do is another way for us to shoot ourselves in the foot by demonstrating that we favor venting our spleen over measured analysis of the facts.
Just as we ignored, glossed over and misrepresented the US position in the schoolgirl incident, we are simply disregarding Japan’s claims on Dok Do out of hand as though this somehow amounts to an objective defence. The more compelling, authoritative and fair way would be to calmly air and acknowledge the Japanese claims while presenting our own side by side and then rely upon the international community to weigh in on one side or the other.
There are two reasons we fail to respond in our own national interests in this manner. The first has somethig to do with the Korean personality, and the second is the tendency of our polititical partisans to seize upon emotion-laden issues to advance their own agenda, and Dok Do is a convenient distraction.
“Never to be a slave again”? We are slaves because we suffer from slave mentality. We are slaves to foreign brand names (???), slaves to our dependence on the largesse of the US, slaves to our desire to kiss up to China, and slaves to our need to vent our sleens at the expense of our own national interests. In the final analysis we rely on the opinions of others and their reactions toward us for our own self esteem and this is not the psychology of self-detemination.
Ogrecrest, I guess it’s a very nice position to be in the position where Japan was, when they had to “give up” Chejudo, Ullungdo and Kommundo in 1952 – three islands that Japan took over (Koreans say Japan stole) in 1906 with the rest of Korea. I guess it was all legal and done deal, when all the colonial powers were divying up the world in nice little signature agreements of “you stay out of my back yard and I’ll stay out of yours”.
One questions (and this is the crux of the Korean fury), does Japan feel any kind of moral question to reclaim their once colonial posessions? Another question, would Japan today be claiming Chejudo, Ullungdo, and Kommundo too if Japan hadn’t been nice and kind enough to “give up” in 1952? What you’re telling me in essence, is that Japan would have a legal right to all of Korea, if it wasn’t for 1952.
Please, I’m trying to understand where Japan is coming from, without my thin head going off and explode in disgust.
YoMo, “Koreans do not have squadron of B-2 bombers so take off clothes, lie down and enjoy what comes next? Is that it?”
What is coming next, exactly? Nothing?
YoMo, “Koreans will do anything including self-destruction to fight off the Japanese. Once is enough. Never to be a slave again.”
I wouldn’t want to be a slave either. My guess is that if the U.S. was invaded, 80% of us would fight to the death. At the Alamo, it was a 100%.
YoMo, “do not take SK??s military so lightly. Japan will have hard time taking SK.”
SK has one of the finest militaries in the world. One of the benefits of living next to the North Koreans is that South Korea can’t be invaded again.
YoMo, “Who knows China may jump in and take a whip at Japan as well. So, Japan Beware! ”
China still can’t cross Taiwan’s moat, much less Japan’s.
This Tokdo episode is good lesson for all the anti-war people in Korea though. You don’t go looking for war, but sometimes war comes looking for you.
Hi, will.
I am a bit at a loss. First two lines of your comment seems to be saying that I am a rera speices with a hideous idea or what.
Mizarv,
If Korea takes this to international court, she will lose it for sure. That is because the treaty that handed Korea over to Japan is internationally recognized by all great powers of that time, including US, G.Britain, and Russia. As the above poster said, Japan succeeded in petitioning the US to leave out Tokdo from the 1952 treaty that gave back all of Japan’s gains in Korea. Korea at that time was engaged in a devastating war with North Korea, and was too distracted to notice what was happening. Japan once again took the opportunity of Korea’s weakness. Of course the International court will say it’s too bad, that’s your problem if you were too weak to put a stake in it (this has been the pattern for all the other similiar circumstances involving colonial subjects/masters). Japan has the international law, in this case their colonial era papers to flash, Korea has the upper hand morally because the islands were Korea since days of Shilla. But in a court of law, legal documents win hands down over any morality. That’s the only thing I don’t agree with you above. Korea should just hold onto the island and ignore the unrepenting former fraudster who’s now flashing his signed legal document deeds to the island.
The mentality like YoMo has been the norm in Korea for centuries. This is the very reason why Korea has never been able to achieve what it is capable of. Can Korea ever be able to shake this monkey off the back? Is there any hope? All I know is this, Koreans are really good at it when it comes to running off the mouth. The book is empty.
Bob Webb wrote:
“Annual trade betwen Korea and Japan is about $45 billion. My guess is that the annual revenues from Tokdo is about half a million dollars. That comes to 100,000 times.”
half a million dollars? even now with the fishing, it is probably considerably more than that, but with the gas deposits, which supposedly could yield $150 billion over ten years, your ’100,000 times’ comment looks ridiculously silly.
Kimbob
OK, sorry, “give up” is not a good term. “Abandon” is correct?
Answer to the First Q:
Colonial posession or not is mute point.
Korea says in 1900 they legally obtained Dokdo.
Japan says in 1905 Japan legally obtained takeshima.
I think this is very legal, and Japan and Korea are on the same rule.
We can investigate which country obtained the island more legally.
Oh, forced acknoledgment is null. I agree completely.
Answer to the second Q:
No. Japan is not claiming Cheju and others.
And, I am not saying that Japan has a legal right of entire Korea.
ogrecast,
okay, go ahead.
well, that’s one retroactive opinion, but it’s not really supported in the text. if that were the case, it would have said something like korean territory goes no further than chejudo, ull?ngdo, and Kommundo. and the statements made were about defining japan, not defining korea.
you’re making a retroactive argument of convenience.
except that that’s not what it was about. it was about japan relinquishing claim over a number of things it wanted to keep, since it could not keep all of korea anymore. the fact remains, the tokto/takeshima issue was ducked.
and which korean government signed this san francisco treaty that determined this?
the same south korea that was not allowed to attend the peace treaty talks?
south korea was in no position to negotiate anything.
not by south korea it wasn’t.
if this were japan’s unchallangeable position, it would have been made clear in the 1965 treaty between seoul and tokyo.
japan’s modern claim came in 1905. korea’s modern claim (according to the japan times — there’s a link on my blog) came in 1900.
korea could not challenge japan taking it in 1905 because japan controlled korea’s foreign affairs then. korea could not do anything about it in 1952 because they weren’t signatories. 1965 they essentially agreed to disagree, but korea held on to the islands.
so it goes back to 1900. which comes before 1905. i got an ‘a’ in math.
the international community – Mizarv
You mean the U.S.? UN? EU?
EU sells fighter planes to China so that China can bomb the heck out of Taiwan. Do you think they will join Korea’s cause if Korea Beehaved in European and cultured manner?
UN has no military and US will not be involved in a regional conflict. The U.S. will not die in Japan’s war.
Mizarv, if you are a Korean, your writing describe you. “Lying down and spit into air”. Things you deride other Koreans will be someday used against you. So, grow up from your “I am better than most Koreans” rhetoric. You are not an elite to the rest of the world, you are just a savage you so aptly described.
And, other posts suggest somehow Koreans were more refined the rest of the world will join Korea’s cause and defend against possible Japanese invasion. Fat chance! They never have and they never will.
Phew, the bottom line is money. There in NO international community and NO justice. Read what I wrote about Rwanda.
I am impressed with the Korean government to asking Masan to calm down. The cat is already out of the bag, however: In Sokcho, Gangwondo, I just saw a sign,
“Dokdo is ours, Daemado is ours, too!”.
It’s not a municipal government sign, it’s an advertising sign for a hairstylist. Is this a ‘meme’, a novel idea that spreads through a population?
Mizarv,
There are too many Koreans like you saying ” I may look like a Korean but I am not like a typical Korean(=I am not a Korean)”. Well, to the rest of the world you are the Korean you described. Any bad things you spew out will come back directly to you once you step outside Korea.
So, why help the enemy? Why kick youself in the buttocks?
Think about good things about yourself and write about them. The rest of Korean people share the quality. After all, you came from the same gene pool.
“One questions (and this is the crux of the Korean fury), does Japan feel any kind of moral question to reclaim their once colonial posessions?”
Japanese children are learning right now colonial rule was beneficiary to Koreans. What the heck do you expect?
“UN has no military and US will not be involved in a regional conflict. The U.S. will not die in Japan??s war.” -YoMo
Correct me if Im wrong, but according to treaties, US HAS to help Korea when Japan attacks Korea first militarily.
“Is there any hope? All I know is this, Koreans are really good at it when it comes to running off the mouth. The book is empty.”
Kimbob, I again dont quite get what you mean by mouth and empty books. Ive never heard this phrases or sayings in Korea nor in US…
“The mentality like YoMo has been the norm in Korea for centuries. This is the very reason why Korea has never been able to achieve what it is capable of.” -Kimbob
Interesting comment! Explain me more! What exact mentality and capability?
“What does Dokdo have to do with detemining our own future?” -Mi
zarv
Well, in the year of friendship between Korea and Japan, I see the issues of Dokdo and History books as issues that both need to get over before getting closer. Also his issue, in a way, symbolizes a start of stronger diplomatic, independant Korea to people. Dont underestimate symbols. Infact they have a profound impact on the general consensus or mindset of the population, something untangible, though its effects huge.
Oh, and do you know about the tons of oil underwater near Dokdo? In near future, when technology is ripe, Koreans get harvest gallons of rich oil for energy use. Thats future isnt it?
Brian,
Don’t be impressed. Actually, it could be a damage control.
The pro-North faction in Korea love to stir up the anti-Japan fervor in Korea. They may have played a strong part in this “Hate Japan!” movement even though the Japanese started the Dokdo thing and keeps it going.
However, when the people get excited about a war against Japan, they started questioning the war fighting capability of Korea. And, they voiced the increasing the defense budget. This comes in direct contrast to the pro-North appeaser’s policy of weakening military so that NK, led by the infamous Chinese puppet, can absorb SK.
Sometimes, things go exactly opposite of what you wanted.
Kimbob
You pointed out the phrase which sounds that Japan is nice and kind enough to give up Chejudo and others. Which I apologized, because it was my mistake of choosing word, and because I think we should not use phrases which make one party look unfairly bad or good.
Because of the above reason, I want to point out that the phrase you used is making Japan unfairly bad, and if possible, would you please explain why you used such a phrase.
The phrase is ” Japan once again took the opportunity of Korea??s weakness.”
For Korea, the timing was not good for sure. But it does not mean Japan took the opportunity of Korea’s weakness. It was just a coincidence when drafting the treaty and the war were happening at the same time. Don’t you think so?
Anyhow, what happened after WW2 is on Japan’s side. Korea drew a line on the water illegally, captured Japanese fishermen, and used military to get the island.
If any of you wants to say that the 1905′s bill was not legitimate because of the use of the force, you have to admit that the above activities are also illegal, and that the current possession of the island is due to illegal action.
Therefore, if you don’t like imperialism or decision by force, you have to agree on the withdrawal of Korean force from the island, and seek the other way to solve the issue.
As a way to solve the issue, I think the ICJ is good. There we can investigate the legitimacies of the bills of 1900 of Korea’s and 1905′s of Japan’s.
What is bad for this solution?
norapark:
This is another false claim done by Koreans. The Edict no.41 in 1900 recognizes Ullungdo and its surrounding rocks: one of them is Chukdo (the direct translation in Japanese is “Takeshima”), only few miles off shore to the east from Ullungdo. The Ullungdo area WAS the hotspot between Chosun and Japan, and Dokdo (Takeshima) was nothing but the pass way for Japanese fishermen and merchants. There is no single map which suggests that Korea actually knew the existence of today’s Dokdo.
We have to understand that the Eastern Asian prior to 20th century didn’t have the concept of “national border” probably with exception of Great Wall. It was more like “cultural boundary”. Because of Dokdo’s inhabitable environments, nobody had claimed legally until 1905. It has nothing to do with Japanese Imperialism, but the defence against Russian Southward aggression.
orgrecrest, I didn??t think I??d actually see it but you just proved to me that you used nothing but a legal basis to support the Japanese argument.
If you didn??t know already, the Koreans didn??t have the sovereign power to conduct nor approve of the 1905 Treaty. So the contract is null and void. Unless?? Hmmm???.unless you??re saying the events and actions leading to WORLD WAR 2 and Imperialistic Japan??s hold over Korea had legality!!?????
Will, you are repeating the lastest lie coming from the Korean side. Infact, Japans sovereignty over Takeshima was reaffirmed
by Japan on January 28, 1905. This is many, many months before the conclusion of the protectorate treaty in November 17, 1905. The diposition of Takeshima was not discussed, nor did Korea object when the Japanese reaffirmed their sovereignty over the island.
Now that I that you have been disabused of that notion, will you change your position?
But why now? Korea had a police stationed in Dokdo from 1960′s. It has been the Korean soil almost fifty years.
Why this sudden interest in Dokdo? Greed, maybe. Opportunity to land-grab while the U.S. look the other way?
If Korea had it for fifty+ years, wouldn’t it be a de-facto territory? How far should the territory dispute has to go back?
Koreans showed the strong resolve even to the range of extreme madness. Japan should back off.
“This is many, many months before the conclusion of the protectorate treaty in November 17, 1905. ”
Technically true, but only half true. This has been pointed out before but with Japan’s victory over China in 1895, and victory over Russia in 1905, Japan was in defacto full control over Korea at this period, with the Korean king being a king of Korea in name only. Sure, the documents were signed and became official in 1910 to make all of Korea part of Japan, but nobody except you and some others are fooling themselves into parroting out Japan’s claims that Korea was a soveriegn nation in 1905, able to express any sort of self-interest with Japanese troops nearby. Talking about lies..come on. Your credibilty goes completely out the window when you defend Japan’s colonialism. Maybe Japan should have “annexed” Australia too, then let’s see if you feel the same.
orgrecrest said:
–
For Korea, the timing was not good for sure. But it does not mean Japan took the opportunity of Korea??s weakness. It was just a coincidence when drafting the treaty and the war were happening at the same time. Don??t you think so?
–
You know,this is the very reason why other countries in the region raise an alarm when ever a new Japanese history book is put out.
Colonialism and Empirialism is by default about TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE WEAKNESSES OF OTHER PEOPLES. Are you so DEVOID OF ANY SENSE OF MORALITY that you cannot understand how wrong this is?
Since your FEEBLE LITTLE MIND don’t seem to be able to grasp this simply human issue let me put it in a way that the likes of you may understand. Just because you can bench press 300 lbs DOESN’T mean it’s okay for you to go around beating up on guys who can only bench press 100 lbs. That would make you an ASSHOLE. I guess we know what that makes YOU don’t we?
It takes true character to understand that STRENGTH IS IMPORTANT BUT NOT EVERYTHING. Ignoring the wrongs of the past and teaching your children that it was okay for your grandpa to beat up on your neighbor’s grandpa is NOT WHAT GOOD PEOPLE TEACH THEIR CHILDREN.
But then againhow would you know that? They never taught you right in the first place anyways. Low class indeed.
Many people on this board is telling Koreans to back down and just take it. Or, it won’t happen so calm down.
Well, you cannot tell that to a victim who just saw her *rapist around the corner once more. Yes, Korea had been the Japan’s slave for almost fourty years. Yes, Korea was only freed as the by-product of WWII. Yes, all Koreans spoke Japanese and used Japanese last names. Yes, Koreans were forced to participate in Shinto worship and recite the pledge to the Emperor of Japan. Some Christians refused and put to death.
What do you want? Just fall backward and play dead? Koreans will fight. I cannot guarantee they will fight to the extent of the Japanese’ example during WWII, but it would be very difficult for Japan to win easily.
We will fight them in the air. We will fight them in the sea. And, many years later, people will say this was the Korea’s finest hour.
Hey Shak, you better read your own Encyclopedia link, it doesn’t look too good for Japan’s argument. What is this?
YoMa, are you really Korean, or you just pretending to be Korean?
YoMa
are you really koren?
legallybrown,
even the japan times refers to the 1900 claim as taking effective control of the island. hardly mere korean propaganda when it’s acknowledged in japan as possibly having validity. there’s a link on my site to the japan times article, but if i cite it here, this post won’t go through (some anti-spam control).
Damn you guys need a forum, I cant read all this shit all the time.
Taehanminkuk cha cha cha Taehan minkuk cha cha cha. Once again folks, just to piss off the Dude, Taehanminkuk cha cha cha cha!
Let’s gather up the Kyopo power and unify in one mind and drive out all the evil whities and their evil Japanese running dogs from our motherland! Heil Kim Jong Il! Heil Corea! No dude, I’m not being serious. At least give me half a credit despite my handicap of being a crazy Kyopo.
I’m done here for now. You guys believe what you want, frankly it’s a waste of time trying to change anybody’s mind once their minds are already set. I just realized I’ve spent and wasted the entire day in this blog. And that is really pathetic. I hope Marmot post other topics soon so that we can move on.
The penny-wise and pound-foolish Japanese are at it again. They are risking the whole Korea-Japan relationship over a small island. They may get what they want but never again will be able to gain the trust of Koreans.
This puts the U.S. in a very, very awkward situation. If the war happens, it will be great for American economy and for California(this is where I live). America can sell more fighter planes and other weapons to Japan at high premium. The U.S. will be able to pay off the Treasury Bills held by the Japanese. That amounts to more than 30% of U.S. national debt.
However, the alliance of the U.S.-Japan-Korea will no longer exists(some say Korea has already left the alliance, but that is not true). And, Korea may have no other option but to join the Chinese camp.
A great loss. An irreparable loss.
Japan’s greed will mess up the U.S. plans. Shortly thereafter, China will attack Japan using Korean soldiers as its front troops. Should the U.S. defend Japan, if this happens? What do you think?
What do I think? I think you’re a troll.
Good night.
Some of you do not understand how the real world operates. If you show to a Japanese or a Korean an document and say “Look here, this document says…”, you think that will end the argument? A snowball in hell.
If Japanese troop ships show up at Dokdo, cry out to the imaginary world community and tell them about Korea’s situation and some country will come and help? Which country? Congo? Poland? Argentina?
There is no world community. And, there is no proper way to behave.
Some say Korean hype about Dokdo will only give the opportunity for right-wing Japanese groups to drum up more support. I think the opposit is the true. If Koreans just keep hush-hush, the right wing groups in Japan will try to more. If you give a foot, they will take a mile. They always do.
Cutting off the fingers may have been too radical, but burning flag of the Emperior Japan..Why not! Show them we are mad. Mad as heck and will not take this c*rap from an evil neighbor.
for god’s sake, marmot, please post something new! we’ve reached meltdown here.
in the meantime, you’re all invited to my blog. we’re having pepsi and kosomi crackers and we’re talking about anal sex.
If the fishermen from Shimane are right-wingers, that makes all Koreans hard-core right-wingers. No wonder Koreans ban Japanese from restaurants, taxis, and golf courses, on top of the crazy nationwide activities like flag-burning, finger-cutting, and chicken-beheading demos. You guys are a scary bunch
kimcity2000 (great name),
i agree wholeheartedly that any attempt to ban people on the basis of their ethnicity is wrong. even the dirty, stinkin’, imperialistic, no-good, pig-hoof toed japs.
i’m just kidding about the last sentence. it does bother me in korea how we read about ‘no japanese’ or ‘no foreigners’ or ‘foreigners only’ signs.
it’s scary, yes, and extremely counter-productive.
This whole island spat has devolved into a battle of wits, in which both sides appear to be hopelessly unarmed.
mark, you were itching to use that, weren’t you?
As posted time and time again, most Japanese don’t give a rat’s a$$ about Tokdo. (Contrary to what the newspapers here seem to imply, most of them couldn’t give a hoot about the “Korean Wave” or whatever else is happening here.) The fishermen and right-wing morons on the coast – who hardly represent the Japanese majority – are getting so much publicity – undeserved publicity. Don’t take the bait – ignore them like the insignificant/annoying mosquitoes they are. Please stop cutting off your fingers and roasting yourselves outside the Japanese embassy. Tokdo is Korean – probably as it should be – and that isn’t going to change anytime soon.
i used to think that the so-called ‘korean wave’ might be a hoax generated by the korean media until i was in a bookstore at narita airport and saw all the japanese-language magazines with ‘winter sonata’ actors and other stuff on them.
Norapark,
D-d-d-did you say anal sex?
I’m there, dude….
I don’t think its a smart move by Masan. Hopefully they will realize their folly.
YoMo:
“Mizarv, if you are a Korean, your writing describe you. ?橫Lying down and spit into air??. Things you deride other Koreans will be someday used against you. So, grow up from your ??I am better than most Koreans?? rhetoric. You are not an elite to the rest of the world, you are just a savage you so aptly described.”
Yes, YoMo, I am not any bette” than others and am mostl likely a savage. Despite all my personal failings, I am still not cynical enough to suggest that the attempt to be fair and truthful is spitting in one’s own face. But your point is well taken: we Koreans have indeed refined spitting in our own faces to a fine art.
“And, other posts suggest somehow Koreans were more refined the rest of the world will join Korea??s cause and defend against possible Japanese invasion. Fat chance! They never have and they never will.”
Ahem, I thought the US liberated Korea twice – once from Japan and subsequently from the joint North Korean and Chinese invasion.
“Phew, the bottom line is money. There in NO international community and NO justice.”
Yes, the bottom line is money and influence. And if Korea intends to become wealthy and influential, we need to learn to control ourselves and act more intelligently to further our own self interests. You put it so well when you described our orgies of hatred as spitting in our own faces. The day we grow up is the day that we get the respect we deserve. Until then, we should expect to be treated like children.
YoMo: “Mizarv,There are too many Koreans like you saying ??? I may look like a Korean but I am not like a typical Korean(=I am not a Korean)??. Well, to the rest of the world you are the Korean you described. Any bad things you spew out will come back directly to you once you step outside Korea.”
OK, YoMo, let me get this straight. You want me to whitewash the truth about ourselves in order to look good to others lest they speak badly of us?
Well here’s my response to that. If you simply profess to be better than you are, you will eventually be found out. It is much more respectrul to admit one’s flaws and work on correcting them. We Koreans continually brag about ourselves to the world, sending out messages like “Wonderful Korea” and so forth, but that has had no impact whatsoever because our actions continue to betray us, and actions speak louder than words.
“So, why help the enemy? Why kick youself in the buttocks?”
The best way to help the enemy is to ignore the truth about yourself. Now then, who is this enemy of whom you speak? Surely you don’t mean North Korea, because we are being inculcated to no longer concern ourselves with the imminent threat it poses. Apparently, you are referring to Japan as the enemy? Well, that is surely a good way to kick yourself in the buttocks -harbor hostility toward your neighbors and allies.
“Think about good things about yourself and write about them. The rest of Korean people share the quality. After all, you came from the same gene pool.”
Does one’s gene pool determine your worth, or does your humanity? We Koreans are inately no better or worse than any other gene pool on the planet, so the gene pool is not an issue. The issue is culture. Where we have a cultural advantage that we need to build on, I write about it. And where we have a cultural handicap we need to reform, I write about that too. After all, it’s not being right that matters, but being the best you can be. When you stop challenging yourself and become complascent, you begin to decline. This is precisely what I observe happening in Korea today – it is falling behind as the rest of the world continues to advance. Go ahead and write about how good this phenomenon is. I’m all ears.
YoMo: “The penny-wise and pound-foolish Japanese are at it again. They are risking the whole Korea-Japan relationship over a small island. They may get what they want but never again will be able to gain the trust of Koreans.”
May I remind you that it is twe Koreans who instigated the current crisis by provoking the Shimane Prefecture to enacte its ??Takeshima Day?? ordinance. It is we who turned away Japanese fishing boats in direct violation of our treaty of 1999.
“This puts the U.S. in a very, very awkward situation. If the war happens, it will be great for American economy and for California(this is where I live). America can sell more fighter planes and other weapons to Japan at high premium. The U.S. will be able to pay off the Treasury Bills held by the Japanese. That amounts to more than 30% of U.S. national debt.”
Does this bit of far-fetched fantasy pass for “logic” in some part of the world? First, how logical is it that a war could ensue over so minor an issue? Second, why do you espouse two contradictory and equally ludicrous views in succession? First you maintain that your hypotetical war would place the US in an awkard position but you immediately contradict yourself by proposing that it would actually be good for the US economy. But most illogical of all, what is your point in your apparently gratuitous attempt to demean the US?
“However, the alliance of the U.S.-Japan-Korea will no longer exists(some say Korea has already left the alliance, but that is not true). And, Korea may have no other option but to join the Chinese camp.”
What Chinese camp? Is there a Chinese camp? Whatever are you talking about?
“A great loss. An irreparable loss.”
A loss of what, precisely?
“Japan??s greed will mess up the U.S. plans.”
How so? You formerly insisted that the US would benefit economially from a war. And what are these “US plans” that “Japan’s greed will mess up? Are you privy to information that is not yet public?
“Shortly thereafter, China will attack Japan using Korean soldiers as its front troops. Should the U.S. defend Japan, if this happens? What do you think?”
I think you’ve been smoking something, and it ain’t ginsaeng. What you’re saying is that China will attack Japan over a war that Japan starts over a couple of rocks? You are also suggesting the US would side with Japan aggressors in this hypothetical war when they attack Korea, even though this would mean damage to US military installations in Korea?
You want to know what I think. I think there is no need for anyone to bother disputing such dubious logic on a scenario that is the sheerest of fantasies? I think that such irresponsible rhetoric is precisely what I have been decrying, and we should all thank you for such a precious demonstration.
Went to the old local department store today. They have a stage where they have “acts/singers” perform. Today one group sang (drumbeat please…….you guessed it…..F*cking Japan. Well at least it is not F*cking USA (Yes I am a selfish American). Kids of all ages and even adults were there to listen and even get a bit of a groove on (Well not groove more of a head bob thing). Sad to see such utter immaturity. Expect more ugliness in the following days and weeks.
International politics aside, this is now interesting from the stand point of local politics too. Central government control used to be pretty total not even 10 years ago. It is good too see some local government standing up to the mob bosses in Seoul. Of course, I predict Masan will fold ‘em.
EmpirialismSucks
One more thing,
But crazy bible thumpers suck more since they??re the lap dogs of empirialists. :p
Well, if you like to dismiss the whole theology which is built upon thoughts and experiences of millions of people over thousands years with one-liner like this, go ahead. The loss is yours.
To me, you are very savvy in many things but totally ignorant of this God’s good news. However, something are not meant to be known to everyone. It takes a special “power wind” from the “Force”. ( I made up these terms.)
When playing with toy dinosaurs in kindergarten, I learned that the kid who threw the biggest tantrum got to have the Tyrannosaurus Rex; unless of course he hit one of the other kids, in which case he would have to sit in the corner.
I am pleasantly surprised to see someone like you, a very logical thinker, to be a Korean. Are you a scientist or an engineer? Your mind is very logical. I like that.
However, I do not think you were anywhere close to military. Military people are war experts. We know about a war, we smell a war and we predict (sometimes!) the outcome. War can happen over something smaller than Dokdo. War is an expression of pent-up feeling. Dokdo can be a convenient excuse for the feelings that are ready to be released.
This is Sunday in the U.S. and let me tell you what I think America is.
There is a “Force” in the universe. This “Force” claims that it made the Universe, the earth, all living creatures and the human beings. This “Force” walked with a particular race of people called Jews. However, soon these people abandoned the “Force”.
This “Force” worked with Spain, Germany Britain and is now working with America. President Bush was “allegedly” told by this Force to attack Iraqi dictator and liberate people. He followed this “Force”‘s command.
Americans voted President Bush for the second term. Either these Americans are stupid or misled? Many people think so. I know many who voted for Pres. Bush believes this “Force”.
Yes, I do. You can say that I am naive or stupid. But I have some experiences that led me to the conclusion that this “Force” is real and true. Do you like to know about this “Force”? The name is “Jesus”.
Recently, this Force departed from Europe and He reside exclusively in the U.S. However, strangely this Force is strong in one other country. Where? In Korea. Yes, the savage and uncoothe people. This Force is very strong in Korea. Wonderful, Amazing!
If you like to know more about this Force, just get a Bible and start reading. It will tell you all about the history of mankind from the beginning and it will tell you about the ending as well.
However, for those who follow this “Jesus” will have a different place (different dimension?) to live called Heaven. Wierd? Crazy? If you think that, isn’t human life crazy? We do not know why we are here. We do not know where we come from and we do not know where we are going after death. Weird trip, huh?
I found the answer in the Bible and in Jesus. You can laugh. But, I believe my answer has 50-50 chance of working out. I think it is better than no answer. How about you?
My last post was to Mizarv. Others are welcome to read and think about my comment as well.
Rather than sideline coach the Korean government and their handling thus far of the Tok-do issue, I think I will address those who seem somehow finaly feel some sense of justice for all the times they have had to defend the actions of the US. I am not going to argue that all the wars the US has been involved in have been purely for its own profit but I certainly would argue that is the case with Iraq. Of the reasons given to invade, (WMD, Al Qaeda link, planning on developing WMD, etc.) none have been achieved. The cost of oil has not even gone down and now, thanks at least in part to the policies of the Bush administration including the unofficial support of the weak dollar the world is not a better place. For those that would argue that Saddam was bad, no argument. If that is the best that the US can do, that is nothing to be proud of-it is pretty embarrassing really. At the same time, the inability to deal with NK, nuclear proliferation and a whole host of other issues leaves Americans on the whole with not much of a leg to stand on when critiquing the Tok-do issue. The initial election of Bush may have be forgivable but the reelection-absolutely without excuse. For Americans to argue about how Tok-do is being handled is akin to a kid with a soiled diaper complaining that his fried has a piece of rice stuck to his shirt. The bottom line that I think most of us would agree on is that A) Korea should do what it takes to maintain control and possession of Tok-do and B) it is comical to watch how they handle the situation, particularly so the more animated and unrestrained they become.
But crazy bible thumpers suck more since they’re the lap dogs of empirialists. :p
HOWEVER!, Mizarv misses the point on YoMo’s hyperbole completely. Mizarv looks at the now but YoMo looks out at the horizon.
The thing about the status quo is that it ALWAY CHANGES. If you cannot accept the possibility of the “unimaginable” happening then you probably won’t LIVE to see what happen after it happens to you.
Believe it or not the U.S. has a very important choice to make. Pride or Pragmatism. Pride, one of the seven deadly sins as a matter of fact, would mean the U.S. deploy a defensive line against the “Chinese Camp”. Yes, one exists eventhough the status quo America’s always gonna be number one neo-conservative brain washed non-american foreign stuffed puppets like Mizarv might not be able to recognize it. This would mean a remilitarized Japan and the 7th fleet deployed to protect Taiwan at all costs. Why? Because god damn it the U.S. can’t let those slant eyed red c***ks become number one again even if the same assholes that bombed Pearl Harbor wants to bomb all of asia once more!
I don’t know about you but I hope that instead of Pride America will choose Pragmatism. China will regain much of it’s historically traditional role as the engine of the world economy pre-colonial era once again no matter what anybody would like to think, especially Japan. With a quarter of the population of the world starved for modern conveniences and on the brink of “making it”, it behooves the U.S. to realize that one day soon the world may once again have two superpowers instead of one.
The problem is, unlike the cold war era, believe it or not the economic idealogy of the two superpowers are strikingly similar. Why is this a problem? Because latent emperialist elements in Japan and even closet Japanophiles like Mizarv would rather die then see a day when their dreams of the “Great Empire of the East” led by who else but Japan is maginalized by a revitalized China. With the world deviding it self in to several massive markets, U.S., E.U., China ONE ALL BY IT SELF, Japan WILL become a SECOND RATE PLAYER at best give or take a couple of decades unless it can somehow create this pipe dream of an empire.
This is why the right wing in Japan is freaking out. They’re looking at death’s door and the glorious future their misguided forefathers promised them is slipping away day by day. The only way to recapture this dream again is to GO TO WAR! Expand Japanese territory by force even if it means getting two superpowers to collide and cause massive destruction to other peoples. What do they care! They never did anyway and they never will. And THIS MUST BE DONE ASAP! Why? Because once the idiot right wingers running the U.S. realize Japan is actually quite expendable, the game is over.
Crazy you say? I hope not for the sake of lives of millions of people living in the far east, like youself for instance Mizarv, if you are indeed from Korea. People don’t have to die if things get decided along economic lines the way it did when the Soviet Union fell. This is what Sun Tsu meant when he said a truely great general is one who can win without fighting. (Yeah, America! Yeah, capitalism! :p)
Unfortunately for Japan it’s looking less and less like they will be able to win without some blood getting shed. That’s a pity. I remember a little story from one of Kim Yong Ok’s books where he shares a drink with a Japanese history teacher who tells him in his drunken stupor, probably one of the few times when a Japanese will actually tell you what they REALLY think, that if the Japanese were to go three meals without food they’d all pickup guns and head for Korea. (Okay, I embellish a little but you get what I mean.)
You say Mizarv that most Japanese don’t care about the whole island issue? Ohhh, how wrong you are. You must not know the Japanese very well. Do you really think there will be a Japanese on that island that wouldn’t pick up a gun and blow you away without a thought if push came to shove? They will, and you know what? They’ll do it with a smile too. Enjoy.
Craig, I don’t agree about the city council standing up to Seoul. Landclaims, territorial disputes and the like are issues for bilateral or multilateral agreements. Federal governments settle these issues. Municipal governments and provincial governments exist for other things. I remember the city council in the suburb next to mine back at home in BC was so busy grandstanding on federal issues (relations with the US, nuclear energy and weapons, Iraq), that they were actually dealing very little with the day-to-day issues that required their attention (like rezoning applications, noise complaints, transportation studies etc.)
This whole thing could have been averted if the little governments would have left the federal issues to the federal governments. I do fault the Japanese government for not asking, as the federal government here has just done, the local government to back down.
This whole thing could have been averted if the little governments would have left the federal issues to the federal governments. I do fault the Japanese government for not asking, as the federal government here has just done, the local government to back down. — Nathan Bauman
HOORAY! Finally a voice of reason!
One can’t help but ask MAYBE THE JAPANESE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOESN’T WANT THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO BACK DOWN?
God, I do really miss the days when there was some opposition left in Japanese politics.
Norapark, I never said the Korean Wave was a hoax – I implied that it was overblown, not unlike this excessive hype – also largely generated by the Korean media – about an islet that is Korean and is going to remain Korean.
EmpirialismSucks
You are great! I admire your knowledge and eloquence. And, I am again surprised that you read Kim Yong Ok’s books (this means you can read Korean) and at the same time have incredible grasp of English usage.
Totally Bilingual! How do you do it? Amazing.
Just like to add one thing. America may choose neither Pride nor Pragmatism. America may just sit this one out. The Chinese and the Japanese combined account for more than 80% of the U.S. national debt.
Just let them fight. The upcoming China-Japan war will be fantastic for the U.S. and the EU. If Koreans were smarter, they would know how to weather the storm and make some money on the side. But, that could be asking too much.
EmpirialismSucks
I am reading and re-reading your post. It is so…tasty. You have some profound insight into this situation and I am flabbergasted to see my equal (I think you may be better) in sizing up the situation in the Far East.
Your writing should be translated into Korean and be a required reading in Junior high school and be written into a college entrance exam.
Here are my humble additions and thoughts.
1) Like you, I suspect Mizarv being a non-Korean. Her writing is missing something…Hmm, may be smell of Kimchi. No emotion. No kick and the sour smell of rotten cabbage mixed with peppers. Nothing like that in her writing. Actually, I taste a little bit of left over Dikon.
2)” Japan WILL become a SECOND RATE PLAYER” – I think Japan is already a second level player. The Japanese boost up their currency value and play exchange game to give the impression that they are first level but they have no staying power if a war happens.
3) “Because once the idiot right wingers running the U.S. realize Japan is actually quite expendable”. The U.S. already count Japan to be disposable. Anti-Japan fervor is still strong in the U.S. Maybe not as strong as the 80′s ( In Detroit bar patrons beat a Chinese to death thinking he is a Japanese). But, still strong.
Hey, you should go to Havard or some place like that to let your thoughts known. Or, run for the presidency of Korea if you still can. You are one hundred times better than Pres. Rho.
Well the annual March Hate is on yet again, nothing much new there. I have lived at length in both Korea and Japan. Koreans crave attention and it is practically impossible for them to get a rise out of Japan because the Japanese really don’t give a shit about Korea or anything Korean. The Japanese I know respond to the kind of antics that are going on in Seoul now with mild disinterest and amusment. Escapades like chopping fingers off only reinforces the Japanese view of Koreans being their retarded third cousins from the Ozarks.
Soon it will all die down until the next March Hate. America hating is not in the cards for now and Japan is a convenient target. The Japanese laugh thier asses off because they know the elite that really rules Korea was installed but them and that they have a huge trade surplus is Korea.
And for Masan: Masan is a shithole, a place devoid of any redeeming qualities. Hell, there isn’t even a decent park to take the kids to. Instead of going on a Japan hate, the city fathers might find some way to improve the lot of Masan residents.
EmpirialismSucks
your posts are quite amusing. they remind me of books i read when i was in highschool that every international incident were caused by consipiracy of jews….
i am back in tokyo now and talk to friends and co-workers on the issue. some of them said it is more like a domestic issue between the shimane local office frustrated by the central government’s indifference of suffering fishermen there. i watched tv program interviewing people at shimane, many of them commented local government should be more considerate…(i dont know they deliberately chose moderate comments to the air or not)
meantime. in osaka thousands of mid aged housewives make a long line to see yeon-sama pictures at an exhibition.
and i dont think i would pick up a gun over dokudo issue. sorry EmpirialismSucks.
politicians here spent almost 2 month to decide what kind of firearms japanese self-defense force could bring over to iraq. majority of them at the beginning insisted just a pistol was enough. no rifle, no machineguns to intimidate good iraqi people….
mae,
Yeah, sure, sure, sure. You guys think you are so refined and so cultured that a war is out of the question.
But if you watch the movie, “Fog of War”, Mr. McNamara who served as the Defense minister during the Vietnam War tells you that a war will suck you in. It is a form of madness that has a power of its own.
It may be like a sexual encounter with a whore. You may not like to do it. And, you do not want to get a VD, but you end up doing it anyway. A war may have that kind of power.
Koizumi and other right winger are not just brow-beaters. They have some plans, definite plans to take Japan into a war. They are pretty good at it seeing that you living in Japan have no idea yet.
Within this decade, if I am correct, you will be on some ship and drinking sake and shouting “Banzai” to kill some Koreans or the Chinese. Just wait and see.
yomo
thanks for your advice. i would start working on getting a canadian citizenship as many hongkongnese have done before 1997, for possible war agains korea or china.
and koizumi and other right wingers dont not seem to be that smart at politics as you pointed out.
if they want to have “fairst class player” status, and make another invasion, they would first target to be a permanent member of un so that they can have veto power in order to make some vicious move.
and in order to be the member, they would kill the shimane bill to make korean believe they were friends, stop visiting yasukuni to avoid any chinese accusasion, spend more money for starving africans to buy african votes etc. but fact of the matter is they just make everyone angry even if they have own reasons which i dont understand fully…
mae
Koizumi and his followers love to do the whole thing in the dark. However, they do not have means to send the message out to every right-wingers in Japan that ” Hey, I am still red-blooded right wing. However, to hide my true intentions, I will skip this year trip to Yasukuni”. If this message can be spread to all the right-wings in Japan through some medium fast enough, they will do it.
The fact is no such medium exists yet. If Koizumi skips Yasukuni, then some right-wing nationalists will read that action to mean Ko is giving in. Then, Ko will lose his supporters. Therefore, fully knowing that it might expose his plans, he still has to go. Or, some of his party members have to go.
The same thing is true about Korean issue. He has to show that he is Korean-hater so as to keep “his people” happy.
Politics is a difficult business. There are enemies inside(those who like to take Ko’s place) and outside(those who oppose what he stands for).
Pres.Rho is going through the same difficulty. He like to weaken the Korean military silently but if he does it too silently than he loses the pro-North sympathizers. So, he has to skip the graduation ceremony for Korean Army Academy to show that he is junking military. He has to show that he leans to the left to “his people” just to keep his voting block.
candu,
i know you didn’t say korean wave was a hoax. that’s the word i used to describe what _i_ thought it might be. yeah, i thought the korean media might be exaggerating it a bit. but then i went to japan and saw all the winter sonata stuff on a lot of japanese magazines. japanese stuff for japanese people. and then i figured i was wrong about the korean media making it overblown.
that’s what i was trying to say.
‘impossible for them (koreans) to get a rise out of the japanese..because the japanese don’t care about koreans.’ pig
well, yes, they do, they care so much that they’ve spent a lot of energy trying to erase the hand of korea in the shaping of their culture. koreans just haven’t used the right type of salt yet because the angle of their reaction is wrong.
sun tzu said you gotta know your enemy and understand what’s important to him. the koreans don’t seem to have figured out that the one thing that will get a rise out of the japanese is to associate them with koreans.
LegallyBrown,
I have also read that the Seok-do mentioned in the 1900 edit is not referring to Tokdo. It is more than a little suspicious that the islets went from being called Seokdo in 1900 and then Tokdo in 1906. Also, were the islets ever referred to as Seokdo before 1900?
By the way, I do not buy the Cholla dialect explanation. Regardly of what the Cholla people call “rock,” it would require a change in Chinese characters to go from being “the rocky island” to being “the lonely island.”
If the islets were so well established as Korean territory, why do Koreans have so many different names for them?
In my above post, “Regardly” should be “Regardless.” Also, it should have been “from … to” instead of “from … then.”
heollo,,,those comments seem to read worthy.. so would you mid if i ask to make the size of the texts larger???
I gave up reading the comments about a third of the way through, but “Korea must learn the secret monkey kung fu” from virtual wanderer made me laugh my ass off! By the way, socks with a picture of “Yongsama” on them are for sale at Namdaemun, and a lot of Japanese tourists were there yesterday…life goes on.
Mizarv, are you still pretending you’re Korean?
mae,
I checked the original Korean versions of three papers. No, I am not accusing you of anything. I believe your words.
Maybe there was an error. Or, Japanese.chosun.com have some advance information which will be printed in Korean version later.
Yes, I did see the article about international marriage you decribe.
I trust you. You seem to be good person. It is your right-wing government that I do not like. I wish it were more apologetic, kind and loving toward other countries, especially to Korea.
Koreans will LOVE the Japanese then. But, at the present time, your government is making all the wrong moves.
i just found that korean politicians are trying to pass a law that any opinion taking a side of pro-japanese in the past should be illigal such as prof. han did the other day.
is such a government called a democratic? it is so sad…. if it is passed, then next thing koreans know is anything anti-north korea would be illegal…
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/03/20/20050320000034.html
it is in japanese, and for some reason i cannot find the same article in the english version of chosun, strange.
mae??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????謨???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
i just found that korean politicians are trying to pass a law that any opinion taking a side of pro-japanese in the past should be illigal such as prof. han did the other day.
is such a government called a democratic? it is so sad??. if it is passed, then next thing koreans know is anything anti-north korea would be illegal???
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/03/20/20050320000034.html
it is in japanese, and for some reason i cannot find the same article in the english version of chosun, strange.
Korea will not accept any opinion less than the one that causes people to cut their fingers off.
mae: Is there a Korean version of it available?
You know, you had one woman and her son hack off a digit. It isn’t like an entire phalanx of folks followed suit. It was an aberration. Are we now going to judge an entire people and culture from a few aberrations? Each and every country and people have their nut jobs. If everyone wants to turn this into a pissing match I can come up with plenty from both Japan and Korea. If not, why don’t we try having a civilized discussion, okay?
Gerry Bevers:
“I have also read that the Seok-do mentioned in the 1900 edit is not referring to Tokdo. It is more than a little suspicious that the islets went from being called Seokdo in 1900 and then Tokdo in 1906.”
Would you mind telling us where you read this?
Shakuhachi, mae.
I checked all three major Korean papers(Chosun, JoongAng, DongA). No mention of anything close to what you described.
plunge
sorry i can not read korean. so please kindly check on the web or actual paper.
the article seems to be written on 5pm on mar 20.
yomo
have you checked originals (i mean actual papers) or english versions on the web?
if the latter is the case, you often dont find some articles which are in the japanese version.
please dont attack me for making faulse and twisting the facts. i just copy whats on the page.
this morning there is an article about phillippinno wife crying for her misery after beaten by her korean husband, under the title of “asian brides are crying-era of international marriage goes up to 10%-”
http://japanese.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/03/22/20050322000006.html
it again is not on the english version.
i guess i know the reason….
Wahh,
I read it in a book by Kim Byeong-ryeol (?????), entitled, “Japanese Claims Concerning Tokdo” (????????? ???? ???? ????????? ?????).
If you can read Korean and are interested in reading the other side of the story, I recommend it. However, if you are like many on this forum who have shallowed hook, line, and sinker the Korean version of events, then I would advise you to stay clear of it since it will very likely cause you anxiety and may even cause you eat a flag, chop off a finger, or jump off a bridge.
What I found interesting about the book was that Kim Byeong-ryeol seems to have felt it necessary to state on the cover, and on the inside, that, even though he is presenting the Japanese argument, he absolutely does not agree with it and that he had previously defended Korea’s position in debates with his Japanese counterpart, whose version of events he is relating. It seems obvious to me that Mr. Kim felt such a statement was necessary to protect himself from being labeled “traitor” or “anti-Korean” by the Korean public.
It is very difficult to get the Japanese version of events here in Korea, so Mr. Kim’s book is a valuable resource. The Korean government and the media have done a great job of filtering, slanting, and failing to report Japanese views on the disputes and have even tried to silence Koreans. For example, a respected Korean professor was recently forced to resign for his, so-called, “pro-Japanese” comments. That was followed by the Korean government’s move to block so-called Korean, “pro-Japanese” Web sites, using the excuse that they were unsuitable for minors. They used that same excuse a couple of years ago to put plastic wrapping on Kim Wan-seop’ book, “Reasons for the Pro-Japanese.” They were afraid that innocent eyes might be corrupted by Mr. Kim’s views.
It is hard to believe that the Korean government would go so far as to make it illegal to disaggree the the Korean position on Tokdo, but, from what I have witnessed in the past few years, I would not put it past them.
Anymore questions? Hopefully, you are not going to ask something like, “Why do you hate Korea?” or some other silliness because I tend to ignore such questions.
Sorry, Wahh, but I am a little suspicious of strangers asking me where I have read something regarding an issue related to Korea and Japan.
Gerry Bevers
There are books, books and more books about any topic.
And, instead of beating-around-the-bush, how about writing something that you read. Can you read Korean? Really? The book you mentioned probably have some chinese characters embedded. I can read them but even some Koreans difficult time deciphering those characters.
If you can really read them, very good. However, I sincerely doubt your ability to read and understand Korean books well enough. Even to understand full meaning of Chinese characters and their Korean counterpart.
If you can really read them, very good. However, I sincerely doubt your ability to read and understand Korean books well enough.
Is there a particular reason you doubt Mr. Bevers’s ability to read Korean books? Is there a chance I might actually get a coherent answer?
YoMo,
I was planning to give you only a taste of Mr. Kim’s book, but, in spite of your silly assumptions, I decided to go ahead and type out the section dealing with “Edict 41.” If you want to read anything else, l recommend you go out and buy the book.
The following section is definitely worth a translation, but I am too busy with other things and am not sufficiently pissed off enough to do it. If would be nice if Marmot could translate it and post it on his site, but that might be asking too much since it would take a little and might even get his site blocked or something. Also, if anyone else wants to give it a stab, you are welcome.
What follows is the section concerning Korea’s “Edict 41.”
11. ??? ??41?????? ??????? ???????? ????????????????
??????? ?????( ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??41?????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????????? ?????. (???? is the Japanese scholar whose views are being quoted.)
??????? 1953??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ??????? ??????????? ?????????????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ??????????? ?? ?橫??? 41??????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????????.
??????? ??????????? ?橫??? 41???????? ??????????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????(????????? ????? ??)?????? ????????????, ?橫??? 41??????? ?????? ?? 5??? ?????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ?????????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ?????????.
??????? ? ???????? ?橫???? 41?????????? ???????? ???????? ????????? ????????????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????(?????, ??????? ??????????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ????????????? ??????? ????? ?樣?????? ???????. ?????????? ?橫??? 41??????????? ????????? ?????? ?먣??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???????? ????????????? ?????????? ??????? ????????? ????? ????? ?????????.
?????? ????졩???? ??????? ???????? ?????????????, ???? 19(1888)??? 6?? 5?? ???????? ???? ??????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ? ????? ???????(????????)??? ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????.
???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ?橫???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????, ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ???좥?? ????????????? ???????? ?????????. ? ???? ????????? ??????? ???????? ??????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ???????.
?????? ?????, ???????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ????????? ???? 19(1882)??? 4?? 7??, ??????? ?橫????????? ??????????? ??????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????????????? ?????????? ? ???????? ????????????? ???? ??????????? ????????, ???????? ?橫??????????? ??? ????????????? ??橫????????? ????? ????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????????(?? 12-3km)?? ?????. ??????????? ?????(???)?( ?????(?????)??????????? ??????????? ????????? ?? ??? ?????.
????? ???????? ???????? ????? ????????? ?? ????????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????? ????? ???????? ?????????. ??????? ????????????? ?? 92km??? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????? ????? ????? ?????????.
??? ????????? ????????? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ?? ???????? ?????????. ????????? ?????????? ???? ????? ??????? ??????(?????)??? ????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ??????? ????????? ????????????? ?????????.
? ?????? ???????? ?橫????, ???????? ????? ???? ?????? ???????, ? ?)??? ?????????? ??????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ????? ??????????? ???(?? ??? ??? ????????.
19????????? ??????????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ????????????? ??????????????, ?? ???????? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ?????????.
? ???? ?????????????? ?? ????????? ?橫????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ? ????? ?????????, ?? ??????? ???????????, ??? ????? ??, ?? ???? ????? ????????????? ??????????, ?橫???????? ????????? ??????? ?????, ?! ???????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ???????, ?????????? ??????? ??????? ???????????????? ???????? ????? ??????? ?????????.
? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???????????? ? ????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???????????? ?????????.
?????????? ???????? ??????(???, ?????? ????????? ??????)?? ???????? ?????? ????? 41??????? ???????? ?????, ??????? ? ????? ?????????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ???????????? ????????? 18??? ?????? ??????????.
?????? ???????????????? ?????? ??????????????? ????????? ?????????? ?????????????, 1900??? 4??, ???멫???? ???????? ????????(???????)??? ????????????? ???????????. ????? ???????????? 6????? ?????? ???????? ????, ??????? ??????? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ????? ?????? ???? ????????. ?????????? 1900?? 10?? 25??, ?????????? ???????????? ????????? ?????????????? ???????橫 ?橫??? 41???????? ??????????? ????????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????????.
??????? ? ????, ?????????? ?橫??????? ? ???????????? ???????????? ?橫??????????梡 ????????? ???? ???????? ?????????????? ?????? ?????????. ?????? 1899????? ??????? ?????(?????)??? ??橫?????????(?????????)?????? ??????? ???????????? ?????? ????? 124??? 30???????? 130??? 35????? ??????? ???????????? ????????? ????? ???????, ?????????? ???????????? ????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? 131??? 55???????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ????????????.
?????? 1907????? ??????? ??????????? ?橫?????????(?????????)???????? ???????? ??????? ?橫130??? 35???????? 45???뢩??????????? ?????? ???????. ?? ??????? ????? 41??????????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ????????? ?橫???? 130??? 35???????? 45?? ????????? ??????????? ???????????? ????? ?????????? ?????.
????? ???? ??????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????? ???? 130??? 45??????? ????? ????? 1905??? ?????? ???????? ????????????? ????????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ??????????, ?????? ???????? ???? ??????? ???????. ?????? ??????? ???????? ????????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???????? ?橫????????????? ??????? 1899????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ??????????? ??????? ?????????? ????? 130??? 35??????? ???????? ????????.
?????? ????????????? ?????????????????? ? ??? ? ?????????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?橫??? 41???????? ????????? ????????????? ?????????? ????????????橫 ??????? ???????????? ?????????? ? ????? ????????.
??????? ????????? ????? ??? ?橫?????????????? ?橫????????????????? ?????? ??????????? ??????? ?????? ???? 130??? 3, 40??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ???????. ??????? ???????? ?????? ?橫???? 131??? 55???????? ??????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???????. ?????? 1905?????? ?????? ??梨?????? ??????????? ?????? ???????????? ?橫??? 41???????? ????? ????????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????????? ????????? ????? ??????? ???????.
Marmot, Dogbert
Korean is a very complex language. Actually, it is two-language-in-one. Chinese characters came into Korean language in major way and when somebody writes about politics or any academic subjects he is accustomed to throwing big words. College-level Chinese words.
I will give you some examples.
1)??????????
2)??????????
3)?????
4)???????????
Words like these need considerable study in Chinese literature such as The Three Kingdom(??????) to understand. Even KoreanAmericans cannot understand. Nor Highschool graduates in Korea.
I applaud your efforts in learning Korean and maybe I underestimate foreigner’s ability to learn Korean but there are limits. Even I have difficulty understanding some particular jargons in Chinese.
About fingers, cutting of finger to bleed so as to write with blood has the meaning of extreme anger and promise of revenge. Just cutting of finger and not writing means repentance or acknowledgement of failure or guilt.
To Gary Bevers,
?????, ???,????,????,????,?????(not clock, but eyesight),?????(even I don’t know this), ???,??????..
The book is written in old language and is almost Chinese than Korean. Mr.Bevers, comm’on. You did not read and understand this; even Korean college students will miss the meaning of some words I listed.
Only Korean law students who study many years of Chinese characters to pass Korean Bar exam will get 90% of words.
Similarly, a proper understanding of English and the ability to properly use scientific and technical, etc. terminology requires a good grounding in both Latin and Classical Greek. Perhaps we can say that English is three languages in one.
As far as Korean-Americans and their knowledge of Korean, unless you are one who buys into the not uncommon belief among many that one’s ethnicity plays an innate role in one’s ability to master a language, Korean Americans have no easier time mastering Korean than those of us who are not ethnically Korean. In any event, they would have to make the same effort as we, as would Korean high school students, for that matter, in regard to gaining the level of knowledge you describe in regard to Chinese characters (having presumably not been taught them extensively in high school).
Notwithstanding, I read the passage Gerry Bevers cut and pasted and see nothing there that is not readily understandable.
Perhaps we sound a bit frustrated, but if so that is only from having heard ad nauseum (from Koreans) that “Foreigners can’t learn Korean”. If there are Koreans clever enough to master English, there certainly are those non-Koreans able to master Korean — it is largely a matter of motivation.
Thank you for explaining the significance of the two styles of self-mutilation. Still though, I wonder what it will take to spur similar displays by Japanese who must feel an irredeemably bitter sense of “han” at having not been able to reclaim such lost possessions as Dokdo and the Northern Territories.
Mr. Bevers,
I seriously doubt your identity. You read this and typed in Chinese characters as well? Hah!
You had a helper.
Let’s be honest for once. I don’t want to waste my time reading your lies. (And, you were pissed?)
Dogbert
I applaud your effort. Your level of understanding daily newspaper is considerable achievement. I was just pointing out these type of college-level readings are very, very difficult even for 80% of native Koreans.
Especially the book Mr. Bevers quoted is extremely difficult. I am now 100% sure that he did not read and understand the book as he claims.
And, then he typed those Chinese characters into computer. Heck, even I cannot do that easily.
If he copied that document from an website, then he must give us the website. He pretended that he read the book and understood it. But, now he is copying (or had his helper type in) the passage from some website.
What is his job?
Mr. YoMo, thank you. But I still wonder if it is as difficult to understand as you are claiming.
Here is one paragraph I randomly snatched from the above posting:
“???????? ??????????? ???????? ?????????? ?橫???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????, ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ???????? ?????????. ? ???? ????????? ??????? ???????? ??????????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ???????.”
Is that Korean so difficult to understand? I really don’t think it is.
maybe I underestimate foreigner??s ability to learn Korean but there are limits. Even I have difficulty understanding some particular jargons in Chinese.
[...]
And, then he typed those Chinese characters into computer. Heck, even I cannot do that easily.
That’s of course assuming that you are not a complete idiot (The last part of the quote shows that you’re really an idiot on top of a ????…). Is it that hard to imagine and accept that non-Koreans can actually read/write stuff you don’t even understand? My major was Linguistics, and more precisely Phonetics (???????) and Phonology (???????). I bet you can’t even read these words. How about the concept of ?????????? Do you know what it is? I betcha you don’t… And even if you could read the sinograms, do you know what it means, beyond looking it up in a Kor-Eng dictionary (don’t look it up: it means “palatalization”).
Maybe part of the problem is that young twats like you were *not* schooled in sinograms and Chinese classics — as opposed to some foreigners, as I was. Ever read ???????? in the original Chinese? I did — I had to take (and friggin’ *pass*) an exam on this subject in order to graduate… Of course, being based in the US shows that you are just a clueless ????? having difficulties being himself every day. Sucks, I know, but beats being back “home”, eh?
dda
Before you get so mad, I did write that even 80% of Koreans have difficult in reading college-level or higher Chinese characters. Since you believe you can read college-level Chinese characters, I applaud your efforts.
I am just pointing out that Korean language is much more difficult than you think. You wrote some characters you are familiar with. Is that sufficient evidence that you can read college-level chinese characters?
Have you read entire ????????? I doubt it. Maybe a few pages.
What I am saying is that your efforts are appreciated and valued. I may add that I am not a twat nor am I so young( I wish I were). I have studied some Chinese characters, but not enough to match Korean law students.
Geez, I thought only Koreans could get this hot around the collar. Calm down, Mr.dda. And, welcome.
Dogbert,
Do you know exact meaning of these words without looking at dictionary?
???????
?????
?????
????
Can you translate the passage you quoted? I mean you, without help. I know you may understand the general meaning, but the words I quoted are not heard very often. One has to know underlying Chinese characters to get the real meaning.
I really appreciate foreigners learning Korean. I will help Koreans to know that they are not much different from the rest of the world. And, I really applaud your efforts.
However, when it come to deciding what level of proficiency, I have to be little more conservative than others. You may be pampered by other Korean into believing the exaggerated level of proficiency (After all, you paid tution. They have to give you a passing score.)
Again, do not be discouraged. Korean is a very difficult language due to Chinese characters.
YoMo, is “highest peak” really a difficult concept in ANY language?
As far as pampered goes, I paid tuition to the University of California for the study of Korean as well as many other subjects. That institution is known for failing students more often than pampering them. You must remember that most U.S. universities differ from Korean colleges in that regard.
In any event, as my current ability to make a living requires the knowledge of Korean, I’ll leave it to my employers to decide whether they are pampering me or not rather than perform quizzes for you. If they were, it certainly would be expensive pampering.
Dogbert
You are doing fine. These are extreme examples.
I am very sure that no foreigners can have better understanding of Korean than me. Can they know, ????????????. ??????????, ??????????,???????? , ??????????,??????????,??????????
Having sufficient knowledge of Korean-Chinese, even I was having difficulty in deciphering exact meaning and nuances of the literature Mr. Bevers brought. That is why I think he is a Jap spy.
Do you believe honestly Mr.Bevers can understand those old style writing and get the meaning? A snowball in hell.
No one is saying they have a better understanding than you. This is not about you.
What it is about is the ability to read, understand, and evaluate primary sources in foreign languages, including Korean. Westerners have been doing this for centuries. I don’t hold myself up to be an academic, but I can certainly read Gerry Bevers’ reference (as can he) and relate its contents to the current controversy over Takeshima.
Your examples are just the equivalent of ??????????…in fact, talking to you, I feel like “???????? “.
If you are going to go off now about us being spies, I think we are all on different pages. I am sad to admit that I fear your style of thought here is shared by all too many of your countrymen.
YoMo=?? ?
Very good. You did learn those Korean-Chinese. I should have given much more difficult example! Darn! (I am kicking my bootie).
You are not a spy. I have no reason to suspect.
However, Mr. Bevers….I used to work in Intelligence arena. My assessment is not that of a civilian. And, he did behave weird. First, he claimed he read and understood a very difficult book. Then, he posted one page claiming he typed it. As I wrote, these two things he did, even most Koreans will have difficult time doing. Typing in correct Chinese character and all.
Don’t think I am paranoid. I know a rat when I see one.
And, knowing present situation in Korea, it would be naive to think that there are no spies and “inciters” working in Korea. Heck, SK probably have NK spies, Chinese spies, Japanese spies, U.S. spies and various other free-lancers.
Do you know any job like that?
YoMo,
I did not copy and paste any of it. Try searching for it on the Web. I doubt if you find it. I typed it all out after reading your message. No helper was needed. I have been studying Korean since 1976 and have been typing Korean since 1978.
The book was fairly easy to read. If you need help with parts of it, just ask. The words you seem to be having trouble with can be translated as follows:
??????? = the highest peak
????? = the name of the highest peak on Ullung Island
????? = another name for “island”
????(?????) = field of vision
I have read several Korean books, and the language in this book was fairly easy. Are you sure you are not just playing dumb here?
However, Mr. Bevers???.I used to work in Intelligence arena. My assessment is not that of a civilian. And, he did behave weird. First, he claimed he read and understood a very difficult book. Then, he posted one page claiming he typed it. As I wrote, these two things he did, even most Koreans will have difficult time doing. Typing in correct Chinese character and all.
Don??t think I am paranoid. I know a rat when I see one.
And, knowing present situation in Korea, it would be naive to think that there are no spies and ?橫inciters?? working in Korea. Heck, SK probably have NK spies, Chinese spies, Japanese spies, U.S. spies and various other free-lancers.
Do you know any job like that?
Sounds like its time for you to put your tin-foil cap back on heh?
Gerry Bevers has the book. It was right in front of him when he was typing it out. Even if he couldnt read the Chinese characters themselves, he could see them in the book and easily select the correct characters as he typed them.
Koreans dont need ‘inciters’ (which we call ‘Agent Provocateur’, by the way) because they are perfectly willing to chop their fingers off all by themselves. If you are really worried about Gerry Bevers, then it is your duty as a Korean to report him to the police, or better yet, your old colleagues in in the intelligence agency!
If Edict 41 of 1900 is valid enough to make the Japan’s incorporaion of Takeshima in 1905 meaningless, Korea is sure to win, isn’t it?
And if Korea’s victory is made this way, ie on the law basis, Korean would be happier than ever, as Korea clashes one of Japan’s storongest point.
But, as you know, Korea won’t come out before the Court, as they know Edict 41 is just a trash. I even want to use Edict 41 to defend Japan’s stance, saying that in 1900 Korea wes very confused even about Ulungdo. Why did Sokto appear suddenly? And what is sokto?
Anyway, in the point of International law which started coming into Asia shortly before that time, Korea cannot win.
So, what is left to Korea? It is historic point, right?
But, again Korea cannot win. Because Korean history books don’t mention Takeshima at all. As said above, Korean didn’t have clear knowledge even about Ulungdo for years. Ulungdo was mentioned in different names again and again. And Ulungdo was mentioned as two islands sometimes and one island another time. So, obtaining Ulungdo in 1900 is lucky enough for Korea.
Fairly easy? My foot! Just ask any Korean if that book is easy. Just ask any Korean.
You look those vocabulary up in the dictionary. Those are not a typical Korean words. Did you look at the dictionary every time you encountered these big words?
You have a helper! Now, you try to wiggle your way out. I gotcha! Your cover is blown.
Tell me about yourself! What is your native land and where did you study Korean? I will report you to the Korean authority.
Gerry Bevers has the book. It was right in front of him when he was typing it out. Even if he couldnt read the Chinese characters themselves, he could see them in the book and easily select the correct characters as he typed them. – Shakuhachi
Hmm… this gets more interesting by the minute!
I know you’re talking to Netizen Bevers, but look at the time between your post of ??????????? and my reply….I did not have time to look them up. I KNOW those.
I mean, come on. Laying in my foyer is an advertisement for a children’s ????? printed up with a few dozen of those…they’re no big deal. Hell, I have a comic book tutorial of ??????????? that shows the stories behind them…in funny pictures!
I know it was hard to learn English and I feel your pain, I really do, but you just have to accept that some of us have a gift for learning languages.
Twatty YoMo
Apparently, you are making such a big deal out of Chinese characters, one has to wonder about your education level. In phonetics (I am still waiting for your reading of the words I mentionned in sinograms. No cheating! Don’t use an ????!), we used to say “It’s not because you can’t hear sound XXX that it’s not there!”. Same goes for your knowledge of sino-korean words: it’s not because you find it hard, prolly due to poor schooling in that field, that it is the case for everybody. Actually, I am much more comfortable with a text that has lots of sinograms than a plain-??? one. If I have to do speed-reading, a 橡???-laced text will be much easier for me…
Regarding old Korean (for me, old Korean is something altogether different, about which I’d be happy to digress another time, but whatever qualifies as “old” to you will do), you’d be happy at how many academics around the world are able to read (and understand) “old stuff” while being barely able to order food and drinks in Seoul. While I made it out of this world in time to learn “real” Korean, I am still able to read stuff written in Korean (???????? doesn’t count, it’s Chinese) that is so old that these documents have have three digit-dates. Needless to say, no law student (I still don’t get this awe for law students, but anyway) can read these. Heck, at last count, were were less than 50, anyway
If you have a copy of HWP, the word-processor, check out the character mappings. I think it’s in the 3000 range (haven’t used HWP for many years). You’ll find weird little characters that look like maybe half-Japanese kana, half-????. Ask yourself what they are (answer is, but won’t help, ??????????).
Now, be nice and take your trollish comemnts on VANK or OhMyNews. There you may find a receptive audience.
I like you Yoma, You are smarter then a lot of people that post here. Yes there are perhaps lots of spies on this blog. One, who works for JIA (Japanese intelligence Agency),. He pretends to be a half-retarded 12 year old Korean American. His name is Noolji. AKA Shin-Jong Il. He is very crafty and tricky. His Japanese crafty words are an enigma. They are a riddle, wrapped in bacon put in a shoe box behind Korean squat shtter.
There are other spies??.too. Yes Yoma!!!
Mr. Bevers,
Would you care to let us know a little bit more about yourself? Your website contain absolutely no information about yourself. I mean absolutely none.
This is your oppoturnity to share your life story. It must be fascinating life. What led you to such impressive study of Korean language? What is your job? Where are you from originally? You will make a fascinating human life story. Mormot can put you in the Chosun newspaper writing about how you came from a far-off land and achieved the Korean proficiency that exceeds that of average Koreans.
“One of great Korean scholars from far, far away”.
Enquiring mind wants to know!
You may be onto something YoYo…I understand that Robert Kim speaks English quite well and look what he wound up doing!
Good point Dogbert. Robert Kim knew people in the intelligence community too. Maybe Mr Yoma and Robert Kim have some common friends.
YoMo,
I am starting to like you because you are turning out to be quite amusing. That is why I will answer some of your questions
I am from Bush country (Texas), and I started learning Korean in the US Navy. After I got out of the navy, I went to the Univ. of Hawaii and studied Korean Language and Literature. I did not learn much there, but I did teach myself about 1,300 Chinese characters from a book called “Myongdo Korean Chinese Characters,” at least I think that was the title. I then came to Korea and finished the Korean language program at Yonsei Korean Language Institute. Since then I have been on my own.
The fact that you think the words you listed are difficult makes me believe that you do not know as many Chinese characters as you claim. Anyone with a thousand character vocabulary would have been able to dicipher the meanings fairly easily, just by looking at the context. There would be no need for a dictionary.
I am not that good with languages, but I have put a lot of time in learning Korean. And I probably type Korean as well as you do or maybe better. I first starting typing Korean in 1978 on a manual English typewriter, whose keys I had replaced with “hangeul.” A Korean guy in Anjeong-ni soldered them on for me.
YoMo, get out your dictionary and read the Korean I posted. Do not close your eyes to other views. You may learn something that may help keep you from taking that foot you mentioned and putting it in YoMouth again.
Bevers,
You got your back covered,huh? Every good operative in a foreign soil should.
But, I know Korean and Chinese-Korean letters and counterparts. You are telling me a fiction. Even some Mormon preachers who lived in Korea more than 30 years cannot read as well as you.
And, they learn the language with fervor. You didn’t.
You are on your own? Free-lancing? If you have nothing to hide, write something about yourself on the website.
So, at Yonsei at when? You remember any of classmates’ name?
And, do not lie like that. Too amateur. You cannot read that book! Ask Yonsei professors. Even they will have difficult time fully comprehending the page.
OK, YoMo, I’ve seen enough.
It’s been real. It’s been fun. But no real fun.
I’ve banned three posters this week. Who the hell died and made it “Troll Robert’s Blog Week?”
I’ve stopped reading this thread since about 30 posts back. It’s useless.
Just curious, who were the three that got banned?
Well, Kimbob, since you ask, YoMo was the third. Dude was the second, and some other anonymous troll got the axe before that.
I really hate having to police my comments section, and hate even more banning commenters. But some stuff really leaves me little choice.
Marmot,
I hate to see YoMo banned. I had not really been paying attention to his posts until my name popped up in one of them, but I got the feeling that he was just a Korean awkwardly trying to express his surprise at foreigners reading and speaking English. Of course, I thought it was a little strange when he started talking about spies, but since Koreans are so passionate about this issue, maybe that is something he really believes?
Anyway, I do not fault you for banning him since you have probably paid closer attention to him than me and are probably have more experience at spotting “troll” droppings.
By the way, would you consider translating and posting for discussion the Japanese view of “Edict 41″? If you do not have time to translate it, would you post it if I translated it? Or do you think it might put your site at risk in some way? Or maybe it does not really fit with your format, which seems to focus more on tracking news stories.
Anyway, it is just a thought. I thought some of your Korean-challenged readers might be interested in getting some detail on Japan’s version of the dispute.
Correction: “reading and speaking Korean.”
Actually Mr. Bevers I am kind of curious as to who you are. You mentioned several things that are similar to my own career in Korea – including Yonsei, Anjeong-ni, – and I am assuming DLI. To be honest when I went through DLI we were supposed to learn 800 Chinese characters (recognize but not write), but it soon became apparent to all involved that they were not really needed (hind-sight tells me different). I think it is very impressive when a foreigner can speak and write Korean – regardless of what a lot of people on this blog thinks, I think it is a show of respect for and a desire to learn about the Korean culture.
Wishing you the best
Takeshima,
I don’t know why people don’t like me. I’m really a nice guy.
Hyundai,
I can translate the Korean I put up and probably will if someone else does not beat me to it. In fact, I may may decide to cancel my dates and waste a whole weekend writing about the Japanese view of Tokdo.
By the way, are you trying to get me to translate it by using psychology on me?
Nora Park,
I have no problem with Chinatowns or Koreatowns, as long as they form naturally, but I think it is more than a little silly to intentionally try to create one just because other countries have them and your does not. That is what Korea has tried to do. Korean officials said to themselves, “Other countries have Chinatowns, so we should have one, too. Let’s make one.”
Ethnic enclaves are not really something to be proud of. Most were formed by minority ethnic groups to try to avoid discrimination and harrassment from the majority group or groups. Korea’s attempts to intentionally separate foreigners into their own foreign communities is not only anachonistic, but can also be seen as discriminatory. Besides, it does not usually work. People come or go to a foreign country to blend in, not stick out. If you do not believe me, come to Incheon and look at the city’s pitiful attempt to create a Chinatown.
Seems like we have gotten a little off topic here.
Robert,
Yes, it does look like we have the same roots. I also went through DLI, but when I went through in 1976, the school was experimenting with a shortened version of the Korean language course that focused almost exclusively on listening. I do not remember learning much grammar or getting any practice speaking, and I certainly was not taught any Chinese characters. Our course was only 32 or 33 weeks. You cannot cut corners like that and expect people to learn a language as difficult as Korean. Luckily, though unlucky for us, my group and one other were the only ones forced to suffer through that ridiculous program.
I am also impressive when foreigners who learn to read, write, and speak Korean well. And I am particularly impressed with people like Marmot who have learned to do it in a lot shorter time than it took me.
I love the Korean language and most of the things about the Korean culture. I only wish Koreans would stop trying to embellish or exaggerate things about their culture and history just so they can oneup Japan or China in some area. For example, why intentionally try to create a Chinatown just because other countries have Chinese enclaves? Koreans seem to be trying to be engineer a culture instead of letting their own develop naturally.
I do not know how I got off on that tangent, but I feel a little better for having done it.
Anyway, thanks for your comments and best wishes to you, too.
Dude – gone ha ha ha. I stopped responding to him after a few posts. The guy was an utter agitator – he wasn’t here to contribute. No big loss there.
YoMo – I stopped responding to him after his silly tyrades of wiping out the Japanese. Whatever.. with my eyes rolled. No big loss there either.
While it *does* help to start young, nothing replaces practice (as in living in-country for listening/speaking, reading/writing for ???/????, etc…). In my University’s Chinese dept, students learned 25 new characters a week, and had to write pages and pages of them every day. Same went for pronounciation, grammar, etc… Needless to say, the first three years of Chinese did sound like boot camp!
While the regimen was far less strict in the Korean Dept (they didn’t want to lose the few students they had!), “normal” masters students probably had between 3 and 6,000 sinograms in their heads [but since we had to study concurrently either Japanese or Chinese, it was not really that big a feat]. Actually, we couldn’t start back then Korean studies until we had at least a term in Japanese or Chinese behind our belt (so that teaching the basics of sinograms was left to these departments — one hassle less!). Not that it did much good to our listening and speaking abilities, but at least we knew how to read…
“But, as you know, Korea won??t come out before the Court, as they know Edict 41 is just a trash. I even want to use Edict 41 to defend Japan??s stance, saying that in 1900 Korea wes very confused even about Ulungdo. Why did Sokto appear suddenly? And what is sokto?”
Heh, why would Koreans ever want to go to the Court if it has pratical ownership of it? And why dont you understand the issue first before you babble your point? Korea is intrepreting Sokdo, an island mentioned in the Edict 41, as today’s Dokdo, thereby claiming it as Korean territory. Saying ‘Edict41 is just a trash’ or ‘And what is sokto?’ just shows your shallow understanding and rash judgement.
“But, again Korea cannot win. Because Korean history books don??t mention Takeshima at all.”
well, first of all Takeshima is Japanese, so no we dont teach Takeshima. Second, schools do teach about dokdo, the arguments from both sides and why Korea’s claim is right. Third, your logic, IMHO, is total bullsh!t. Dokdo is just two rocky islands. Do Japanese history books mention every single rocky island it has? Why dont you worry about your history book’s disgusting distortion of history before you talk anything about Korea’s history books.
Gerry Bevers,
I agree with you that there are too many distortion of truth far as Korea’s history is concerned. But as for creating “Koreatowns” I’m not too sure if I understood you correctly, but creating ethnic enclaves is a very common thing. Doesn’t matter if that group is Irish, Polish, Jewish, Greek, Chinese, or Korean. You don’t seriously expect 1st generation immigrants to be fully integrated? This is the classic Nativist versus Immigrant infighting a la Gangs of New York.
” Koreans seem to be trying to be engineer a culture instead of letting their own develop naturally.”
I know exactly what aspect of Koreans you are describing here, and Im not too fond of it either. Rather than engineering culture, I describe it as blindly accepting or promoting outside culture without questionings.
And about Chinese towns, it is not the Koreans to decide that really, it is the immigrants or the Chinese.
“I only wish Koreans would stop trying to embellish or exaggerate things about their culture and history just so they can oneup Japan or China in some area.”
Japan has long described Korea as traditionally small, helpless and in need of foreign rule. Many Koreans subconsciouly have this in mind ‘We Koreans were always small, surrounded by giants’. Now, thank goodness, some other viewpoints in history and culture are coming forth. Some of them are so radical that they seem fabricated (i.e. ?????????, a able ruler of Goguryeo, was ???????? of Japan, and Baekje’s territories included todays phillipines). Yes, obviously people want to sell their books and make money. But you must not get the wrong impression of an ‘exodus from Colonailism movement’. By the way, thats what I mean by cultural invasion; remnants of colonialism in a prosperous Korea show that cultural damage last significantly longer than militarial/property damage.
Sokdo, Tokdo, so what? Names of places change all the time. And Bevers is beating a dead horse again. We’ve already answered his questions on numerous times, why Korea doesn’t want to take it to the international courts. And they are pretty darn good reasons why. Even if what he says is correct, year 1905 when Japan layed claimed to the island, that is also questionable. Japan made Korea a “protectorate” of Japan, was that legal? We can argue the Takeshima claim by Japan can’t be separated from the question of Japan’s move to swallow up Korea in the same year. As for Ogrecrest saying Korea was lucky to get back Cheju island and Ullungdo.. dream on bud. I know the Japanese in the past had laid claims to them as well (I’m surprised they didn’t claim the entire Korea – oops they already did once, with the kingdoms of Kaya and Paekchae in southern Korea). But those islands were Korean as kimchi is and has always been as such. FYI, my ancestors were Cheju natives, who were exhiled by the central government of Chosun because they fell out of favour. And this was way before any land grabbing Japanese laid any claims to them. Amusing.
Japan made Korea a ??protectorate?? of Japan, was that legal?
Good question.
I’ve been looking into that, the basic answer is, nobody knows for sure. It can be argued either way.
There is a good, short summary of the situation here.
Anyway…
Pretty good article from the NYT about Dokdo events.
Gasp! It was written by a Japanese journalist!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/international/asia/22korea.html
Plunge, I was talking about 1905′s Eulsa Treaty between Chosun and Japan, not 1910′s Annexation. But it’s the same question over again, was it legal. Of course the Bevers and others (nevermind the fact that they’ll take any positions that are anti-Korean for that matter), will say yes, it was a perfectly legal treaty between Korea and Japan, handing over Korea to Japan. That is the crux of their entire argument. I mean logically speaking who would in their right mind would hand over their country to another country, especially a country that has been a mortal enemy for centuries? Legally on the other hand, Japan as unrepentant and unsorry about the wars they caused, say it was perfectly legal when they notify the British, the Americans, French, Germans. So I think that’s the problem we’re having here fundalmentally.
If this case ever goes to the courts, Korea will undoubtedly end up arguing whether Japan’s colonial rule over Korea was legal or not. And based on similiar past cases in international courts where they do not take into consideration colonial power supremacy/subjugation factors nor do they take into consideration historical settlements, there is no 100% garantee that Japan’s rule over Korea will be found to be illegal, as unexpectable as this may sound. The courts may rule that if Korea didn’t speak up when Japan claimed Korean territories as being property of Japan, then that is tough shit (despite the fact that Japan was effectively in control of Korea’s foreign policy at this time). Coupled with the fact that this court is non-binding, why would Korea take a chance (when it has the rocks already), and take this to the courts? Even if Korea wins in the courts, what assurances are there that Japan will drop the claim? I’m sure they wouldn’t.
Koreans rightfully argue that Korea had not been able to effectively protest the Japanese action at the time because Japan had had already taken control of the foreign affairs of Korea via the Protectorate Treaty of 1905, also known as the “Eulsa Treaty” or the “Second Japan-Korea Agreement”. (The ratification of the treaty itself had been forced on Korea by the Japanese delegation to the treaty “negotiations” led by Ito Hirobumi and General Hasegawa Gonnosuke, with no signatures given by either the King or the Prime Minister of Korea.) The Korean side also points out that the Japanese did not inform the Korean Government of their claim until 1906, and then only indirectly. Upon learning of Japan?s decision, Korean officials in 1906, at both local and national levels, did in fact recognize and document the Japanese action as a violation of Korean sovereignty. However, due to the loss their nation?s independence and foreign affairs capability, no action was taken. Currently, the Japanese Foreign Ministry website states that it was not necessary for Japan to inform other countries of this territorial acquisition. This contrasts sharply with Japan’s action when it acquired the Bonin (Ogasawa) Islands in the Pacific. Then Japan contacted Great Britain and the U.S. several times, which were only remotely involved in them and it notified 12 European countries of its establishment of control over the islands.
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page10.html
Interesting article, thanks for posting the link.
Gerry Beavers wrote:
“For example, why intentionally try to create a Chinatown just because other countries have Chinese enclaves?”
without addressing whether or not i agree or disagree with other stuff you write, this bit of rhetoric struck me as very dense.
at the very least, it does not fit in with the southern california experience, where koreatowns popped up and became centers of first-, second-, and third-generation life long before they were ever officially _designated_ as such.
garden grove, for example, became a magnet for orange county’s k.a. population, and only when korean-language businesses became dominant on garden grove boulevard did efforts for an official designation come.
you may be right about the designation, but why shouldn’t korean businesses enhance their visibility by officially being recognized as a koreatown?
but this is for sure, the koreatown started developing on its own long before any official designation (which still doesn’t exist in garden grove, i think), and even before k.a. businesses started forming associations.
no one made these koreantowns in order to compete with the chinese (speaking about southern california, the home of quintessential kyopo-dom).
Gerry Bevers,
How come you can read Edict 41 but cannot translate? Am I missing something here?
People sure like to stick it to the Beav. Mr. Beav, what did you do to get all these people to dislike you? I have read what you have to say and it??s pretty reasonable. Is there a secret message that is ?橫anti Koran?? as Mr. Kimbob says?
Is it because you speak Korean? That seemed to upset a fellow. Or is it because you asked questions about Korean behavior like why they copy Chinese? Somebody called you ?橫dense?? for that. Do you notice this Mr. Beav?
“I don??t know why people don??t like me. I??m really a nice guy.” – Gerry Bevers
And I’m sure Noolji is a nice guy too in real life. And everyone hates him, gee I wonder why?
Kimbob stated: “FYI, my ancestors were Cheju natives, who were exhiled by the central government of Chosun because they fell out of favour.”
Interesting! So was my family from my mother’s side. Cool.
Juan, what is your last name and which clan were they?
My father’s entire family lineage is the Kobu-Yi. Last name, Yi, from Kobu.
What’s your mother’s side? Also interestingly, my father was born in Osaka before the WWII. He still speaks fluent old Japanese. His father died in the mines up somewhere in northern Japan. My father’s family went back to Cheju island – their homeland, when they were stripped of their Japanese citizenship.
wow, Kimbob
so not only are you a Canadian scumbag whose parents were either too stupid or poor to get into the US, but you’re also a Cholla scumbag? Hey, if your clan was just like you, maybe it’s not easy to figure out why they got kicked out.
My mother’s clan is the “OH” clan. (My father’s clan is the Milyang “Park”).
I heard my uncle tell me the story how they were kicked off the mainland a long time ago
kimbob, you think of me too much. why not get back to what you’re really good at?
a few more ‘mea culpas’ won’t hurt.
don’t be in such a hurry! the koreans are doing just fine. make some kimchi pokkoom with american bacon and for once feel satsified that you are connected to a people with such yummy food! i suggest paechoo kimchi, oy kimchi, mook, and k’ongja baht, as panchan. and don’t forget the koongmool and steamed mandoo. nooroongjee cha would also be nice. enjoy!
kimbob, forgot to give you your due. your associating me with gerry bevers was a stroke of stategic genius! good one, kimbob. good one!
“wow, Kimbob
so not only are you a Canadian scumbag whose parents were either too stupid or poor to get into the US, but you??re also a Cholla scumbag? Hey, if your clan was just like you, maybe it??s not easy to figure out why they got kicked out. ” – “kimbob_is_a_dork”
Hi Noolji, is that you? lol.
Ethnic enclaves are not really something to be proud of. Most were formed by minority ethnic groups to try to avoid discrimination and harrassment from the majority group or groups.
Sorry shipmate, but that’s crap. Ethnic enclaves mostly form because people like to be around their own kind. They like having friends to talk to, familiar food to eat, and a li’l bit of home even far away.
Look at today’s English Chosun. Roh vows to root out the Japanese problem. As if he doesn’t have enough to do! Holy moses! Starvation in North Korea, bad economy, tanking relationship with US, China rising, now he wants to take on Japan. Why make more problems to solve? Is this guy for real? Where is Korea’s priority?
C’mon, Kimbob, it’s the same in Korea as it is anywhere else….Roh rails against Japan, Roh’s approval numbers shoot up out of the basement. Roh tackles domestic problems, everyone hates him. It’s a no-brainer.
Brendon,
I think you may be talking about the modern benefits of living in “ethinic enclaves,” while I was referring to the historical reasons for many of them forming. Here is a link to the Wikipedia definition. The fact that the following sentence apppears in the definition should, at least,” mean that my comment was not total “crap.”
“Historically, the clustering may have been involuntary, due to housing discrimation which prevented members of ethnic or religious minorities from settling in more prosperous parts of town.
By the way, I think we do have common roots in the navy.
Kimbob–The Chosun’s editorial put it very well:
“Korea is placed on the most precarious geopolitical fault line in the world. It is a grim reality that any of the three forces surrounding us – the world’s sole super power America, the world’s second economic power Japan, and effectively the world’s No. 2 power China – is too powerful for us to cope with on our own. Brave though it may be to believe, on the merit of South Korea’s enormously increased national strength, that it could play a decisive role on a geopolitical volcano, it is also extremely dangerous.
South Korea’s declaration that it belongs to no side is nothing but a confession that it is isolated, that is has no reliable friend. The president’s remark that the power structure in Northeast Asia will change depending on our choice, if taken wrong, could sound extremely boastful. More prosaically, however, it amounts to telling the surrounding powers, “We don’t know what choice we will make in the future. Therefore you had better deal with South Korea as your potential enemy.”
In short, the Republic of Korea is seriously confused, and the country is forcing its neighbors to watch the security situation very closely.”
I think Roh is a political naif, unfortunately, and he’s letting Koizumi play him.
well, kimbob, no it isn’t me. in fact, i’ll ask mr marmot to ban me if i ever post under a different name other than nulji without making it clear it’s nulji.
seems you’re hated too. lol.
Gerry,
I’m not too sure if you are claiming that Korean government tried to create Koreatown abroad or create Chinatown within Korea, because I don’t understand the context of what you are saying. Could you elaborate? For example are you saying that the Korean government engineered the Chinatown in Inchon or are you saying that Korean government sponsored Koreatowns in LA and NY? If it’s former, then I can agree with you. But it’s latter, than I must disagree with you fully.
Takeshima(Dokdo), I responded to your short rebuke at me before. I’m not sure if you just wanted to get it off your chest, but if it was a dialogue you wanted, I have responded.
Virtual Wonder,
I was referring to the Chinatown campaign in Korea, that started a few years ago. Here is a link to a nice little article that talks about the Chinesetown in Incheon. I know hardly anything about the Chinatowns and Koreatowns in the US.
Gerry, thanks for the link.
Pretty interesting stuff. It’s kind of funny how it wasn’t so long ago when Park Chung Hee ran his Anti-Hwagyo pogroms. When the Japanese persecutes zainichi, every Korean seem to fume. But when we Koreans persecutes the Chinese, people have no idea such thing is happening or deny it. What goes around comes around I guess.
Say what you will about Mr. Bevers, you can’t outdo what he once admitted about himself, that he is “apologist for Japan’s colonial rule of Korea.” I like his honesty, and while I think some of the things he says are utter nonsense (“lots of factual knowledge lacking applicability and relevence,” I like to say) he surely thinks the same about me, he is usually polite and nice about what he says, even when being yelled at. Hope to meet him someday.
This time I agree with him. I agree just on principle about creating a whole new Chinatown, that it’s not something that can be done artificially. But in my view it is also something close to an insult and it comes way too late. The 3,4,5th generation Chinese in Korea that I know are almost offended, like “uh, now that most of us have left? Why didn’t they try that decades ago?”
Under the Japanese and under Park Chung Hee (who used a lot of the tricks he learned from the Japanese) the Chinese suffered from a great deal of discrimination and sometimes violence and most have moved elsewhere. Now Korea wants to bulldoze down a whole neighborhood and build a Chinatown to attract investment and tourism, a “project” largely initiated by Koreans?
http://www.seoulchinatown.com/eng/sangam_contents_eng.htm
Kinda nutso, I think. Even if the project is somehow a financial success, like if large Chinese companies move inffrom overseas to do business, it will not be a “Chinatown” in the traditional and cultural sense of the term.
kimbob,
being a japanese living in korea, i really like people here.
and yeah, there are some stupid politicians and intellectuals in japan, but still many ordinary, and could be innocent and naive japanese are big fan of winter sonata, and of yeon sama and korean people in general.
it has been lack of info in the past which was problem in japan. but now at least ordinary japs realize, like , hey korea is not that bad!
so i really wish pres. roh can lead the country properly.
sorry for my lousy english. i was quite drunk by soju with some of korean friends of mine….
Gerry -
Read the article you linked and do not agree with the:
“They created a Chinatown and expanded their business clout, but a series of measures by the Korean government, such as restrictions on foreign ownership of land and currency reform, prompted an exodus of Chinese from Korea. Bukseong district in Incheon, where Chinatown once existed, turned into a slum.”
There were a lot of issues that caused the Chinese to leave at one time or another – some of the key ones – Sino-Japanese War, Russo-Japanese War, probably the annexation of Korea by the Japanese. The Chinese tried were reasonably successful in Korea – but each time they started to do well it was the Japanese that came down on them – such as in Pusan in 1886 (?) notes aren’t with me so I am not sure on the date.
From a historical desire I would like to see Chemulpo (Inchon) rebuild or recreate the old city – Korea really lacks this charm – when I go to Yokohama along the British Consulate it still feels (sans the traffic and noise) that I am stepping back in time – to the colonial period.
Korea is an ancient country with a long history – but it doesn’t breathe the history – there is no place that I feel as if I am stepping back into time – everything here is so commercialized or just plain neglected.
I dunno about the Japanese stomping on the Chinese community in Korea and preventing them to succeed. Maybe in the past, but ???????? needed nobody to put huge clamps on Chinese entrepreneurs in Korea. The Chinese community in Korea is probably the only one is Asia — outside China of course
— that is not wealthy, or recognized as is. And if you ask around, you usually get a resounding “And That’s A Good Thing!”
“I stopped responding to him after his silly tyrades of wiping out the Japanese. Whatever.. with my eyes rolled. No big loss there either.” -Kimbob
I read all YoMo’s posts. There was nothing like what you wrote.
Trying to fit into the white bread world by killing one of your own blood. Very commendable effort! I hope someday someone will do it to you.
Come to think of it, YOU ARE A KOREAN! You cannot hide your ancestry.
Marmot,
OK. I have learned my lessons. I will abide by your rule which is not to be mean to others. I just did not know how far I could go before I get axed.
I apologize to Mr. Bevers as well. I was paranoid at 2AM. I guess it is my old age that caused it.
Can you reinstate my membership? Release me from SPAM list? I will behave, I promise.
Awwwwwwww…..that’s so sweet!!!! Marmot, let him in!!!! This is just like an after-school special.
mr marmot, the guy’s apologized and given his word. give him the benefit of the doubt since everybody deserves a second chance.
This is a shameless plug. After thinking a little about the Chinatown “project” I rambled on and on about what little I know about the Chinese in Korea on a blog I happen to run, you can see it here, http://oranckay.net/blog/?theDate=200503241
Oranckay,
I do not remember ever admitting to being a “Japanese apologist,” especially concerning much of what they did during World War II. Whether, I might describe myself as an anti-Japanese-basher I have said that I am suspicious of the Korean versions of events that led up to and ocurred during Korea’s colonial period, but, actually, I am suspicious of any story that is told from only one viewpoint.
By the way, what do you think of the Japanese viewpoint in regard to Edict 41, which I posted in Korean above? Does it also seem lacking in “applicability and relevence”? I am curious because people have had surprisingly little to say about it, neither negative or positive. Maybe they are still absorbing it?
And thanks for the kind words.
Gerry Bevers,
1) The main issue still is about Dokdo.
2) Who gave you the book? That book is so old that it is not sold in the store for sure. Do you just go around collecting anti-Korean literature as a hobby?
3) Who is the author? Is he reliable person?
3) Why are you standing up for the Japanese? Do you feel that they have the rightful claim for the island? Is it just intellectual interest or you have an axe to grind against Koreans? What is in it for you?
Gerry Bevers,
Prof. Han got fired because he was justifying Japanese Emperialism. If some college professor in the U.S. announce Pearl Harbor attack was justified, he would be fired too.
In Tokyo, some teachers forgot to stand up when “Kimigayo” was playing at the graduation ceremony. They were fired.
Do not expect we Koreans are any better than the Japanese or Americans. Each country has to deal with its own traitors.
Koreans suffered much under Japanese masters. We were even dragged into WWII and died for Japanese Emperor Hirohito.
Now, the Japanese wants a part of Korean soil. If we give them what they want, would they stop? Did Hitler stop?
A Korean nationalist in the Middle East invokes Hitler.
This comments thread is officially dead.
Hyundai,
Yes, the main issue is Tokdo, so why don’t you deal with it? Do you have any comments regarding the section from the book I posted above?
If want to know about the book and the author, try doing a Google search. It will pop up.
If Korea returns Tokdo, I think it is safe to say that the Japanese will be satisfied and will allow Koreans to keep the rest of the pennisula, including Ullungdo and Chejudo.
As for your Hitler comment, I think it would be more appropriate if that were directed at North Korea.
??????? ?????? ??????!
Mr Bevers, you are an apologist of the Imperial Japanese, even if you didn’t say it outrightly. Be honest now, it’s OK.
Moving on, read today’s Chosun headline. “Amaturish” foreign policy of the Uri party is the word. You can’t force a country to change their minds about history with force and threats. This is a perfect example of that. Japan, instead of weakening, is awakening. Korea’s convulsions are giving big helping hands to Japan’s right wing nationalists. To think that if Korea had just remained quiet, this would not even have been an issue. Now this is becoming another big problem, manufactured by Roh and his gang of merry men.
Just when I would have given Roh the benefit of the doubt, that he’s taking a strong stand toward Japan and showing some cochones (“Whatever difficulties may arise, we shall neither retreat nor fudge,” he said about the Dokdo business) he turns around and we get: Roh dismissed the allegation Seoul will summon South Korea’s ambassador to Japan and cancel the so-called shuttle diplomacy between heads of the two neighbors.
“I am not doing that kind of thing,” he said. “We will concurrently do exchanges and say what we should say.” (from Yonhap). So much for his ?橫merciless diplomatic war with Japan?? from a couple of days ago. Kimbob’s right, silence would have been golden here.
It seems that Japan’s ruling party of LDP is once again going to demand Korea to come before the Court.
This is good move.
Personally, I hope the process of the trail goes very slowly so that Korean newspapers follow all the movement and put all the details of Japan’s claims on the paper. This would be devastating to Korean goverment.
And Kinbob.
Japanese impeialism is irreravant. Even if Korea protested in 1905 against Japanese incorporation of Takeshima, Japan win.
As I said earlier, Korea did not recognize Takeshima at that time. Many books and maps written at that time indicate so.
And Kimbob, if you support Korea’s current illegal ocupation of Takeshima, You are the imperialist. You cannot blame Imperial Japan as you always do.
If you do, you are a hipocrat.
“If Korea returns Tokdo, I think it is safe to say that the Japanese will be satisfied and will allow Koreans to keep the rest of the pennisula, including Ullungdo and Chejudo.”
WHAT? Outrageous! Why on EARTH would we ever give up land that is practically in our possession? In a situation where we theoretically could claim even Tsushima, WHY would we give up something we have, something we fought for? And what do you mean, it will ‘allow’ to keep the rest of the pennisula? Japanese rule ended 50 years ago, you know. I didnt read throughly all posts above, but I would like you to explain your logic behind your claim.
“??????? ?????? ??????! ”
Gah, hit chicken Toyota (:P cant type Korean in school). If you are going to shout such a (retarded) claim without any reason/explanation whatsoever, you are not being very helpful to the discussion. In fact, I think you are doing exactly what Japanese always accuse Koreans of; illogical, overly emotional, a bit nuts, irrational… -_- Pah, Nipponese…
Kimbob: “Korea??s convulsions are giving big helping hands to Japan??s right wing nationalists. To think that if Korea had just remained quiet, this would not even have been an issue.”
I see you dont live in Korea, or you would have understood the strong demand by the people for a ‘independant’ and ‘firm’ diplomacy.
And it is not entirely true that Korea’s stand has been beneficiary to Japan. Japan needs the support from Korea and other neighbors concerning issues such as North Korea and UN Leadership position. Truth is that this conflict is harmful to both sides. IMHO, some kind of conflict between Korea and Japan about Dokdo/Textbooks etc was inevitable before a friendly tie.
This also might be the start of a new diplomacy order in North East Asia, but I dont have the time to type this here. I might later
Yep, this Takeshima/Dokto issue has to dissapear for ever.
Then what can we do?
1. War over the islands.
2. One party retreat.
3. Go to Court.
4. Nothing.
1 is unconsidrable in this era.
2 leaves a grudge on one side which retreated.
3 will not leave any bad feeling againt another party, as the judge is made by other countries’ person.
4 does not let the issue dissapear.
Any opinioin.
I blame the Imperial Japan. I’m a hypocrite.Shrug. I support Korea’s Tokdo claims. That makes me an Imperialist.
And we fundalmentally disagree, Japanese Imperialism IS relevant. Because it was Japanese Imperialism in 1905 with the signing of the Eulsa Treaty, that incorporated the islands into Japan’s at the same time it put Japan in charge of Korea’s foreign policies. Of course Korea could not protest, because effectively Japan was in charge. You cannot possibly deny that fact.
I think you’re right though, Japan probably would win in the international courts simply based on past historic cases that recognized Imperial colonial decrees and takeovers of weaker nations. It would have been as if the US puts in a puppet government in Iraq, then the puppet government declaring Iraq as the 53rd state of the United States. Then the US turning around and saying “hey, they want it that way so we are going to be generous and grant them this favour”. Most of the Iraqi people and the world would be outraged today as it would be unacceptable. But in those days (1905), treaties between big colonial powers were perfectly legal and acceptable. And I think the courts will take that into consideration and rule that Japan’s rule over all of Korea as perfectly legal.
To sum it up, morally the islands belong to Korea, legally Japan wins on technicality. After all, periodically murderers do tend to get off from being punished in the courts because of some legal technicalities.
Ogrecrest, there is no point in going to the courts.
The courts are non-binding. The parties involved does not have to follow the rulings. It’s basically a court show with no teeth. What will end up happening instead is that this will hurt Japan’s image. Why? Because Korea will inevitably end up arguing the legality of Japan’s colonial rule over Korea. All of Asia will be outraged at Japan when they see the courts where Japan is defending their colonialism.
Furthermore, Korea will never accept nor give up Tokdo even if they lose in the courts. Nor will Japan accept the rulings if they lose. All it will end up happening is there’d be lot of hard feelings hurt and will only intensify the fighting. This is a long history of conflicts over thousands of years that won’t simply dissappear with a toothless court ruling. It’s best both countries just try to remain quiet.
Kimbob,
If people want to bash the Japanese using good, unbiased evidence, then I have no problem with it; however, much of the evidence we get on Japan from Korea is very biased.
Just consider how the Korean public and media have exagerated, twisted, filtered, and slanted facts related to incidents involving the US military. Now, multiply that by, maybe, ten, and you might get an idea of how Koreans deal with facts related to issues involving Japan. Take for example the following Korean argument presented here:
Futhermore, the claim that Dokdo was not (is not) visible to Korean eyes on Ullungdo is also a falsehood, since Dokdo is visible at a height of 120 meters or higher in elevation from Ullungdo, an island with a maximum elevation of 985 meters.
According to the Japanese argument I posted in a previous post, the Japanese are referring to a report made by Lee Kyu-won, a Korean sent by King Kojong to survey Ullungdo in 1888. In the report, Lee climbed to the top of the highest peak on the island and reported that he looked at the sea in all directions and could not see any sign of an island. Here is the specific quote: “???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????, ?? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ????????.”
As far as I know, the Japanese are not saying that Tokdo cannot be seen from Ullungdo, they are saying that the Korean surveyor sent to Ullungdo in 1882 said “he” could not see it. The fact that Tokdo can be seen from Ullungdo today does not negate the fact that the Korean sent to survey Ullungdo in 1882 reported not seeing any other island. Then in 1899, another Korean document appears to confirm the 1882 survey by defining Korea’s eastern most boundary at a longitude that includes Ullungdo, but not Tokdo. In fact, even in a 1908 report, Koreans still failed to include Tokdo within their national boundary.
So, you can see from the above example how Koreans can twist the facts to support their argument. Koreans say, “Japanese say we cannot see Tokdo from Ullungdo, but look at this picture: There it is.” If you ask me, that is pretty dishonest.
“Please, please stay in Canada and don??t ever ever pollute our fine land by coming here. ”
Actually I intend to be there shortly to finish up some of my business over there. I don’t know what your problem with me is. If you don’t agree with any of my opinions, you’re more than welcome to refute me with reason. Otherwise, you’re in my kill file. plonk.
Gerry Bevers, why don’t you just shut that thing you call a mouth and listen to common sense (which will happen in the not-so-near future). Unless you haven’t been listening properly, the Japanese distort information even more than Koreans. Look at the Nanjing Massacre (China), March 1st Independence Movement (Korea), Pacific War (Asia), Assassination of Empress Myeungsong (Korea), Transmission of Cultural Assets from Korea (Korea), Biological Tests of Unit 731 (Asia (Mostly China)), Harassment of Comfort Women (Asia), Torture and Execution of POWs (Europe and U.S.), and you’ll get my point. And please, for the sake of truth, do not give me the usual crap that all of the events above are figments of the imagination. They happened, so let’s move on.
You did not finish the paragraph, Shak. It??s nice enough of you to conveniently cut out the last part of the paragraph which may give you problems. Look who??s the one deliberately distorting. This is what it says:
You say I am distorting because I didnt include the irrelevent last sentence (not paragraph). This is what that last sentence says.
Advisory opinions do not have to concern particular controversies between states, though they often do.
In what way does the last sentence negate the rest of the paragraph? It does not as this sentence refers to an advisory ruling, which Japan has not asked for. It has called for the case to be taken by both parties to ICJ for a binding ruling. The above sentence has nothing to do with binding rulings.
Again, there is no clearity on what will be considered ?橫contentuous issues between states?? and would be considered ??advisory opinions which provide reasoned, but non-binding ruling??.
Doesnt it bother you that above makes absolutely no sense? I will answer as best I can. You are claiming that it is not clear what a contentious issue means. A contentious issue is when there is a dispute between between countries like the one Between Japan and Korea. Indeed, the word contentious is defined as:
1. Given to contention; quarrelsome.
2. Involving or likely to cause contention; controversial
Next you talk about non binding advisory rulings. Again, Japan is seeking a binding ruling by trying to get the issue resolved by having the Koreans agree to take it to the court.
I would think the Tokdo issue will fall in the ladder case, since the situation is not serious to the point of war or destruction.
You mean the ‘latter’ case right? Since you have been wrong about the ICJ before, I dont think your opinion matters much. In anycase, you are wrong. The ICJ does not just deal in cases where there may be imminent conflict. The ICJ tries to defuse disputes long before it ever reaches that stage. In fact, the ICJ is handling another case over a few rocks in the sea in a contentious dispute between Singapore and Malaysia. No one is suggesting that dispute will lead to armed conflict. Kimbob wrong again.
I tell you, Korea will never abide by the ruling, nor Japan. Even if the case is considered a ??binding contentous case??, and even if the UN security gets involved (which is highly unlikely over couple of rocks), the rulings are toothless.
‘Toothless’? Hardly. Maybe Korea would not bide by the ruling but that would be a major diplomatic loss of face because the parties going to the ICJ have to agree in advance to abide by the ruling. If it goes to the ICJ, Japan will win the case (even Korean government knows this, because they know their claims are total bunk), and will gain a lot of moral strength from it. I dont think Korea would be able to hold on to the island without sacrificing a lot more than it is worth.
OK, ??non binding?? maybe poor choice of words from me – give you that one, but better choice of word would have been ??toothless??, especially in light of who we??re talking about here – the UN.
No, it wasnt a ‘poor choice of words’. You were ignorant of the functions of the ICJ and chose to comment on it anyway. Now you are trying to cover up your ignorance.
So what do we have here? Korea will never accept a loss. Japan will never accept a loss. The judges are toothless enforcing decisions involving border disputes. What is the best interest of Korea to agree to take this to the courts again?
You are wrong about the judges being toothless. The Korean government knows it will lose Takeshima to the judgement of the ‘toothless’ judges and that is why they wont seek to resolve the issue there.
To Kimbob_is_a_dork: First of all, I am not from Cholla, and I don??t know who Kimbob is (except that he is a Canadian gyopo). But the way you described Cholla is so disgusting. Please avoid using hateful words. The words never make your argument stronger but make it cheap and disturbing. It??s already enough to see some Koreans looking down on Cholla. Don??t join them. Leave Cholla alone. Enough is enough.
Shak, you got me beat on that one. I admit I wasn’t familiar with the procedures of ICJ. I gave it a try, but I know when my arguments aren’t going to be standing up to the court of law – unless someone else come back with something new which I’m not aware of. Although I think you are dead wrong when you say
” If it goes to the ICJ, Japan will win the case even Korean government knows this, because they know their claims are total bunk),”.
Do you honestly think the Korean government think their claim is bunk after you see their reactions over the decades? Let’s rephrase that, shall we? You should have said,
“If it goes to the ICJ, Japan will win the case. I know this, because Korea’s claims are total bunk”.
After reading Mark’s new web link, I’m bit more confident Korea can win this case. Still I wouldn’t risk it if there’s even 10% of chance of a loss. Again, I reiterate, if the tables are turned and Japan has the islands and Korea contesting it, it would be Korea wanting to take the case to the courts. Possession of the islands for 53 years changes the policies.
“I have no problem with it; however, much of the evidence we get on Japan from Korea is very biased.”
So let me get this.. much of historical evidence that Japan presents is unbiased, but Korea’s is? We all know where your biases lie, Gerry. Everyone’s biased somehow and there’s no such thing as unbiased opinion especially when it comes to history, but I think you take the cake when it comes to biasness for Japan over Korea.
THANKS FOR THE HEADS-UP, NOW I CAN LEAVE KOREA WITHOUT EVER HAVING TO SHARE THE SAME AIRSPACE WITH YOU. OH, BUT WAITAMINNIT, YOU PUT ME IN YOUR KILL FILE…WELL, THAT PUTS ME IN PLACE! WAY TO GIVE ME A TASTE OF MY OWN MEDICINE, NUMBNUTS
About WW2, If there were a Court of history, and countries were able to argue about historical issues and the third party historians made rulings, Japan would happily take Nanjing issue and Confort women issue into the court. And Chinese goverment and Korean goverment would again try to escape from going to court.
If you doubt, go to Japanese forum and ask.
I think 2ch.net is good forum, they generaly have right side views.
Hi Ogrecrest.
Talking about hypothetical history court cases which will never happen by the way, you give me a good ideal. Let’s all go to court to decide on thing once and for all. Was Japan a benevolent power in Asia who is an unfair victim of witch hunt, or were they power hungry brutes who committed war crimes. If you win, everybody leave you alone from now on. If we win, you have to compensate all the victims, give back the stolen goods, and stop the Takeshima nonsense. Deal? LOL. I don’t think Japan would be too eager to that.
Gerry(?) Beavers,
How did you get hold of such an esoteric book? Are you a collector of anti-Korean books? Did you find out about the book from the anti-Korean website(I am helping your team here, so that your team can survive next budget cut).
How did you actually get the possession of the book which is an out-of-print oldie? (Your team’d better shape up!)
You guys are so lazy. How about hiring some translators? Putting old Korean text right into English website. Who can read? Tsk, Tsk. Request more money. The situation in Korea deserves more funding.
Daniel Lee: Unless you haven??t been listening properly, the Japanese distort information even more than Koreans. Look at the Nanjing Massacre (China), March 1st Independence Movement (Korea), Pacific War (Asia), Assassination of Empress Myeungsong (Korea), Transmission of Cultural Assets from Korea (Korea), Biological Tests of Unit 731 (Asia (Mostly China)), Harassment of Comfort Women (Asia), Torture and Execution of POWs (Europe and U.S.), and you??ll get my point.
But your point is irrelevant, Daniel. The fact that Japan lies and distorts its shameful history does not mean that Korea’s own records 1888-1908 regarding title to Tokto should be disregarded. And it doesn’t entitle or justify counter-distortion by Korea.
The terra nullius argument by Japan is actually persuasive. If the Korean surveyor didn’t report seeing Tokto in 1888 and the territory wasn’t included in Chosun’s own administrative maps through 1908, then it can’t be said that Korea had maintained a claim to Tokto. A state cannot control territory it doesn’t know exists. In the 19th century — when nation-states were in full-on scramble to claim “unclaimed” territories through the doctrine of terra nullius, and also to annex populated areas through various colonial machinations — it may be that Tokto was legally available to be claimed by Japan.
It’s undeniable that Korean public discourse in respect of USFK is largely — almost entirely, actually — based on lies and distortion of facts. The lies are so blatantly false and easily recognized that it seems probable that similar hyperbole is floating around about Japan.
Brendon,
Actually, it should be 1882, not 1888. That was a typo on my part.
Ogrecrest, there is no point in going to the courts.
The courts are non-binding. The parties involved does not have to follow the rulings. It??s basically a court show with no teeth. What will end up happening instead is that this will hurt Japan??s image. Why? Because Korea will inevitably end up arguing the legality of Japan??s colonial rule over Korea. All of Asia will be outraged at Japan when they see the courts where Japan is defending their colonialism.
Kimbob, your claim that the International Court of Justice rulings are non binding have been refuted here at least twice before. Your continuing claim can only mean that you are being deliberately deceptive.
Here
is an outline of what the ICJ does.
There are two distinct types of cases upon which the court may rule: contentious issues between states in which the court produces binding rulings between states that agree, or have previously agreed, to submit to the ruling of the court, and advisory opinions, which provide reasoned, but non-binding, rulings on properly submitted questions of international law, usually at the request of the United Nations General Assembly.
Clearly if it went to the ICJ the ruling would be binding. Please stop making false claims (yes, you have made others but I dont have time to refute every distortion made by you).
You did not finish the paragraph, Shak. It’s nice enough of you to conveniently cut out the last part of the paragraph which may give you problems. Look who’s the one deliberately distorting. This is what it says:
“There are two distinct types of cases upon which the court may rule: contentious issues between states in which the court produces binding rulings between states that agree, or have previously agreed, to submit to the ruling of the court, and advisory opinions, which provide reasoned, but non-binding, rulings on properly submitted questions of international law, usually at the request of the United Nations General Assembly. Advisory opinions do not have to concern particular controversies between states, though they often do.”
Again, there is no clearity on what will be considered “contentuous issues between states” and would be considered “advisory opinions which provide reasoned, but non-binding ruling”. I would think the Tokdo issue will fall in the ladder case, since the situation is not serious to the point of war or destruction. Also read this:
“Should either party fail “to perform the obligations incumbent upon it under a judgment rendered by the Court”, the Security Council may be called upon to “make recommendations or decide upon measures” if the security council deems such actions necessary.”
I tell you, Korea will never abide by the ruling, nor Japan. Even if the case is considered a “binding contentous case”, and even if the UN security gets involved (which is highly unlikely over couple of rocks), the rulings are toothless.
The key words here are “if the security council deems such actions necessary”. Yes, that reads “if deemed such actions necessary”. Now do you honestly think the Security Council of the UN will meet to decide what to do about Japan or S.Korea if they decide not to go along with the IJC ruling on two little rocky islands that hardly anybody outside Korea and Japan care about? What is the UN court going to do? Slap military/economic sanctions over this?
OK, “non binding” maybe poor choice of words from me – give you that one, but better choice of word would have been “toothless”, especially in light of who we’re talking about here – the UN.
So what do we have here? Korea will never accept a loss. Japan will never accept a loss. The judges are toothless enforcing decisions involving border disputes. What is the best interest of Korea to agree to take this to the courts again?
Erased by Marmot and commentor banned.
Thanks for citing my website Marmot.
I have written up a new page on Nakai Yozaburo.
It’s at the website link on this post.
…or:
http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/page11.html
“everyone here hates you”–aww, you need a Time Out, little pretend Korean Who’s Not From Cholla. And Hyundai=YoMo=chock full of nuts. Boring, boring.
The strait between Tsushima and Korea is called Korea Strait.
Koreans say Sea of Japan was named forcibly by Imperial Japan.
Well then the name of Korea Strait remaining doesn’t make sense.
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