Hey, all the media has talked about today is Dokdo. Why should I be any different?
- As you know, Shimane Prefectural Assembly approved an ordinance today designating Feb. 22 “Takeshima Day.” 33 of 36 representatives voted in favor of the bill, with two DPJ reps voting against and a Communist Party rep abstaining. This made the right-wingers sitting in the bleacher seats very happy, as the photo would suggest.
The Korean side, however, wasn’t entirely pleased. The Foreign Ministry immediately demanded that the ordinance be annulled, and the president will unveil his new “doctrine” for dealing with Japan tomorrow. According to the linked Chosun Ilbo report and this Korean-language report in the Segye Ilbo, Cheong Wa Dae plans to take a hard line on territorial issues and historical issues, while at the same time pushing forward (don’t laugh) with “Korea-Japan Friendship Year 2005″ and other exchanges. The Segye Ilbo suggested, however, that the tone of tomorrow’s announcement might be ascertained by the fact that among themselves, officials were using such terms as “an outrage that tramples on the pride of the Korean people” and “a second invasion that denies the independence of Korea.”
MonseigneurPrime Minister Lee Hae-chan called on Japan to “repent.” His money quote:
“Japanese society has not yet fully matured because it has failed to foster an atmosphere of reflection.”
I’ll let you ponder that for a while.
- Ruling party lawmakers were livid, of course. Uri Party lawmaker Lim Chae-jung called the passage of the “Takeshima Day” ordinance an “act of violence against the Korean people and a violation of our sovereignty.” Uri Party floor leader Rep. Chung Sye-kyun called for a joint response with surrounding countries, including North Korea. Yes, this North Korea. Uri Party spokesman Im Jong-seok said Japan’s claims, namely, that Korea is illegally occupying the Dokdo islets, would be regarded as an aggressive intention on the part of Tokyo against Korea and its people. It goes without saying that Korea’s other parties are pissed as well.
- No National Assemblyman went quite the distance as one Seoul councilman, however, who attempted to cut off his finger in front of Shimane Prefectural Assembly Hall.
- Need I say that the Japanese embassy was under siege for much of the day? OhMyNews photographer Kwon U-seong can always be counted on for some outstanding camera work at scenes such as these, and he doesn’t disappoint this time around. You got former “Silmido” types, Japanese flag burnings, threats to blow up the Yasukuni Shrine, some dude trying to eviscerate himself, the ubiquitous riot cops, and more. Something odd I noticed as I was doing a piece for the Chosun — the groups doing the protesting are, by and large, not the anti-American lefty loons you usually see protesting in front of embassies. No, this is a crew of an entirely different sort. The Korea Freedom League, Pan-Citizen Alliance to Defend Dokdo, Citizens’ Alliance to Stop North Korean Nuclear Weapons, Hwalbindan… these are some real, hardcore rightists. The kind of guys who’d normally be spending the day burning Kim Jong-il in effigy.
Looks fun. Pic stolen from the Korea Times.
- Daily Surprise (Korean) stacks up the Korean and Japanese navies. The conclusion? Korea couldn’t do a thing in the world to stop a Japanese invasion of the islets. Oh, and Hanyang University professor Shin Yong-ha told Yonhap that Japan would likely take the Dokdo islets in the event of an emergency on the Korean Peninsula. Always a possibility, of course, although me thinks that in the event of an emergency on the Korean Peninsula, Dokdo is going to be the last thing either Seoul or Tokyo will be concerned about.
- Dokdo getting a new pier and a snazzy K-6 machine gun.
- Hey, who said Japanese rightwing nutjobs can’t be linguistically sensitive? (Old picture, but I saw something similar to it on YTN today).
- The U.S. embassy in Seoul refuted claims by local press that Washington favored Japan’s claims to the isles, explaining that “U.S. policy on the Dokdo/Takeshima Island issue has been and continues to be that the United States does not take a position on either Korea’s claim or Japan’s claim to the island.” Those Canadians, on the other hand, are up to no good, as usual:
A Canadian world map distributor was found to mark Ullungdo, a South Korean island in the East Sea, as part of the Japanese prefecture of Shimane.
The Voluntary Agency Network of Korea (VANK) on Wednesday said they found out that Geocortex labels the island, which controls the rocky islets of Tokto, as a territory of the Japanese prefecture. The Shimane Prefecture passed an ordinance on Wednesday to designate Feb. 22 as “Takeshima Day.”
Tokto is referred to as Takeshima in Japanese.
Geocortex is a geographic information provider based in Canada which delivers its products, such as world maps, to North America and the rest of the world on its Web site.
The civil group also discovered Prentice Hall, a world-renowned education publisher, is distributing a textbook to Canadian schools that say the southern island of Cheju, which has always been Korean territory, was ruled by the Japanese government until 1890.
Yeah, that’s right. Don’t let the quiet and self-depreciating ways of the Canuck race fool you. Underneath it all, they’re stone-cold Japanophiles.
- Best headline so far goes to The Australian for “Koreans give Japan the finger in island row.”
113 Comments
Yeah, Japan’s navy is actually quite strong, for all that they call it a Self-Defense Force. Oh, for fun I might as well include what my Japanese-Japanese dictionary says when you look up Takeshima:
1???????????????”???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????1849??????橡?2?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????1905????????38???”?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????0.2?????????????????????
Ooh, that’s fun. (There’s a second island which has sometimes had the name, definition two omitted.)
1. An island in the sea of Japan, north west of the Oki Islands/Archipelago (Oki shotou.) Known in Japan since long along, it also became known to Europe in 1849 (Kaei 2) due to the French ship Liancourt discovering it and naming it the Liancourt Rocks. In 1905 (Meiji 38) incoporated into Shimane Prefecture. Since the Republic of Korea’s independence, there is a pending dispute about claiming its territorial rights. Area 0.2 square kilometers.
The next-to-last sentence is intentionally vague.
Err, “since long ago,” obviously.
Catherine
Sorry for my being bit sarcastic.
What you wrote seem to be too biased.
You are free to believe from what you learn.
I truely wish you would look at other opinions and studies so that “you don’t have to be for one side or the other. ”
Every human could be “capable” of doing what you wrote, I guess, and you did not say Japan is the only one. So I am sure you are well aware what Koreans did in Vietnam during Vietnam war, didn’t you?
Dear sdgzz: All I know about Koreans in the Vietnam war is that the regime in power in Korea (former president park) got paid by the American government to help them fight their dirty war for them. I don’t know of any collective disdain or atrocities by the Korean soldier against the Vietnamese people. If it is true, I would side with apology and compensation for the Vietnamese…
that’s what they say to themsleves, miss catherine. that’s not what they say to the world. it’s their ‘dirty’ little secret. the japanese have been very successful in erasing the large hand of korea in shaping their culture. the other day i saw a book on japanese history showing half of korea being controlled by yamato japan. and this was from some harvard ’scholar’ . it’s time to turn the tables and move to the shadows as the japanese have done. let me give you an example:
i found a website that’s associated with columbia or some other elite u that had some kind of name like
‘the history of ne asia project’. the site is funded a japan inc. there you’ll find history on the chinese, the japanese and the mongols. no mention of korea at all. korea would be wise to adopt the same tactics. it certainly has the money to do so.
ask major corporations like samsung to ‘pay’ for major worldwide events like rock concerts and sports events. funnel money to them for that purpose. have a stand at said events, give away free goodies that also contain a free map of the world with the sea of japan named the east sea. no brouhaha. no tantrums. no mention of korea. you do these things for years and not months. you do them often.
time to get creative, korea.
and btw, the last thing about the stamps, as soon as the japanese start crying, the central directs the province to stop issuing the stops. you also offer them something that contains the word ‘regret’. regret that it happened and regret you can do nothing about the two million already in the marketplace now being flown all over the world.
This is the funniest serious news post I’ve read in a while. Kudos, Marmot.
Now, I think there’s only one equitable way to resolve this situation. Japan and Korea should jointly give Dokdo to Taiwan.
sorry i didn’t look over my post with all those typos but i think you understand.
This fingers thing is totally wierd, and is unbecoming for a developed country. Capital bits of humor, there, Marmot!
I think it’s silly for some to speculate on the likelihood of a military confrontation. Japan is not going to involve itself in a military battle. All the ROK has to do is to stuff the waters around with Korean military vessels, and to maintain scrambable fighters in the vicinity. Then, (and it’s a shame), open the islands for some kind of development. I still think that the ROK is right to draw the line here; the Japanese will know they can’t cross this line, and they will be less likely to do so again in other similar situations.
i meant to put this on the last post as a minor but fun question to all of you who are interesed in korean culture and have learned to speak their language:
you know in the upper classes of korean society, the women grew their hair very long so that they could braid it and wrap it around their heads. you see this style all the time in korean historical dramas. i think it’s beautiful but anyway, what do they call that style? lots of koreans don’t even know. free samgyosal for a year for anyone who knows.
By the way, I love the Japanese speaker truck (third bullet from the bottom). Note how the message is not just written in hangul and kanji… it’s also written in Korean, but phonetically spelled out in Japanese katakana, apparently for those people who speak but don’t read Korean, yet read Japanese just fine.
Hardcore Japanese nationalists are so awesomely insane. If they were in charge, Japan would have already sent in ninjas to fight the pirates in the Strait of Malacca, and the greatest question of all time would finally be settled.
The Japanese have given the Koreans plenty of rope to hang themselves, and our friends on the peninsula are not prone to disappoint those looking for a public suicide.
once again, i see you taking the japanese side, mr marmot even though it’s the japanese who provoked this whole affair. and while you may want to portray the japanese side as just a bunch of ‘right wing nuts’, i wonder if shimane’s assembly is run entirely by them.
please don’t let your admiration for japanese arrogance get in the way of seeing clearly.
Hey noolji. If you’re sitting on a park bench, and a 3-year old approaches you and starts pulling on your pant-leg, what would you do?
Would you punch the little boy? Start yelling and screaming at him at the top of your lungs? Kick him in the face?
Would you then blame the little boy for provoking the whole affair when another adult tells you that you’re overreacting and its ridiculous to react to something so minor?
Think about it. High-level Korean government officials have elevated some petty little local prefectural morons to their own level. They’ve given them the status of equals and given weight to a stupid, meaningless resolution that doesn’t deserve a single sentence of press.
If you’re looking for who provoked the whole affair, look at the simpletons who gave legitimacy, press, and loads of attention to people who are otherwise completely irrelevant and unknown.
The comment from the Korean fella about Japanese Society not being “mature”, that kinda made me think of this old girlfriend I had once. She always complained about everything (she called this “being honest”), she was unfailingly pessimistic (she called this “being realistic”), and she was usually rude to people for no reason at all (I think she called this “getting them before they get me”). With all of this, you can see why she wasn`t around for very long in my life…*l*. Anyway, whenever I would call her on this stuff, ask her why she was doing it, or disagree with it in any way, she`d jump all in my sh*t, attacking my “maturity”. Hmm.
Funny thing is, in HER mind, she was being reasonable and a friendly little forest creature, kind of like Thumper, the lovable rascal bunny from “Bambi”. To everyone else, she was one step short of a raving, raging hell-cat. And she wasn`t even Korean….*l*
I suppose chopping your finger off in public is construed as “mature” in Korea.
I can’t remember the exact date, but didn’t this hub-bub over the island start during the Korean Independence day? What I remember was thinking wow, what timing for the Japanese to take this stance on Korea’s Independence day celebration, when feelings towards the Japanese wouldn’t have been the most pleasant.
Wonder what would happen if mother earth swallowed up the island, like the supposed Atlantis…
Thanks for the headline from The Australian–made my day. They also summed it all the antics up rather eloquently: “The dispute seems all the more remarkable given the prize over which the countries are squabbling, a few square kilometres of low, wind-blasted rock.”
The latest overreaction is that the the S.K. gov’t ordered Daum to block some Korean-language “pro-Japanese” Web sites that argue that Dokdo belongs to Japan. Sheesh–I never want to hear another Korean criticize Bushie for trampling on people’s freedoms….
didn’t write korea was mature, did i? i wrote that japn wasn’t. do you understand the difference? perhaps when you grow up, you will.
what korea should do:
1. stop the emotion with all the finger cutting and demonstations.
2. change the point of view: move away from the question ‘what’s important to us?’ and move towards the question ‘what’s important for them?’
3. engage in movements that will anger the japanese and make them look foolish while at the same time making koreans look innocent of any wrongdoing.
example:
somewhere in the last two years, a member of the japanese royal family secretly visited the tomb of of some baekche king. her reason? ‘i wanted to pay tribute to my baekche ancestors.’
what’s important to your average japanese? well, not having their origins associated with korea in any way. that’s very important to them regarless of secret trip by japanese royal member.
start issuing international stamps with the pciture of the dwarf hirohito right next to a portrait of a baekche king. print the simple caption: ‘celebrating japan’s baekche origins’ and watch the japanese just go ape shit. and so that the japanese government cannot accuse the central geovernment of anything, transfer stamp making and the like to a province so that you can say it’s a provincial affair even though you know it’s not. ypu say nothing more than that.
psychology, korea, psychology.
The comment that the lefty loons aren’t protesting doesn’t surprise me one bit. Obvious! They aren’t concerned about the transgressions of any Asian country (North Korea, China, Japan) but America. I’m surprised Marmot was surprised they haven’t been doing any of the protesting their so infamous for.
There is no denying a cultural difference between Japanese and Korean, much similar to comparing the Germans to Italians. You don’t have to be for one side or the other. Just because the Koreans are passionate about their reaction to recents events in Japan, does not make them immature, ignorant, or irrational; every culture has different styles of emotional expression. I think that Japan’s history bespeaks what it’s people are capable of: chopping of body parts (especially women’s genitalia) for public display, mutilation of hundreds of thousands of innocent people from many nations, outright denial of their own misdeeds and regional history…. Japan is arguing with the Russians and Chinese, as well as Koreans over small, insignificant pieces of “rock.” It was this type of claim that began Japan’s reign of terror in Asia 100 years ago.
Catherine,
Hasn’t Korean been claiming they are the one who teaches things to Japan in the past? In response to your comment, I would say we, a little brother of Korea, just immitate what the big brother taught us.
What do you mean by “we?” And what did “big brother taught you?” In any region of the world, the balance of power was not always as it is now. This is also true in Asia. It is true that Korean was a much bigger player in the region. Its biggest sin was to become a “hermit” while the Japanese build up arms through Okinawan harbors, bartering precious earthenware built from skills of Korean artisans who were forcefully taken to Japan in the 15th century. Much as silk was a precious trade commodity to China, earthenware was what brought Japan wealth and power in the region.
noolji, you’re suddenly a rational and reasonable fellow? welcome to adulthood…
For noolji: When the baekje rulers lost to shilla, they fled to Japan and started the royal household there. For the time, they posed as the “makeshift” government to the baekje land/people they returned to when they returned to power. It is think intimate connection that the Japanese and Koreans have that has been used by the Japanese to expand their claims to korea. During their occupation of korea, the Japanese forced Koreans to take on Japanese names, speak japanese, and encouraged Japanese women to marry korean men. The Japanese have never denied these close ties with Korea, but they have used them against the Koreans!!!
I think we need more of Joe’s humor to put all things into perspective. There is only so much you can do, even in this age of IT. The earnest and truth-seeking should listen to all sides, but learn to fine tune the skills of discernment to rise above all the non-sense and political maneuverings.
Noolji— You mean this? ??? ?????
???????
Say, maybe the Australian is reading Marmot’s hole for inspiration, because two days ago on these very pages (about the original story of the woman cutting off here finger) I wrote.
JP from Says:
March 15th, 2005 at 12:15 am
Wow?? Talk about giving someone the finger???
Best Marmot post so far this year. Outstanding story synopsis and reader replies. I may read again this coming Sat night instead of watching SNL on AFNK. I’m now convinced the reason I like living in Korea is the entertainment value.
The Yomiuri has a different take on all this, not surprisingly:
The prefectural assembly has demanded on about 20 occasions between 1953 and 2004 that the central government establish sovereignty over the island and take measures to secure the safety of fishing vessels operating around it.
But the central government has failed to act on the requests.
According to the two countries’ agreement concerning fisheries that went into effect in 1999, neither country is to establish an exclusive economic zone around the island, and they are to jointly administer the area surrounding the island by designating it as a provisional area.
But Japanese fishing vessels have been all but excluded from the area, leading frustrated fishermen in the prefecture to back the ordinance.
Just so Marmotphiles get a sense of the background and context. It’s under the “politics” heading at: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/index-e.htm
Japan has a very bad habit claiming territories that do not belong to them. They have territorial squabblings with not Korea, but also with China and Russia. The dispute with China is particularly outrageous. The island is nowhere near Japan geographically, but very near to Taiwan and China. Their basis of their claims are similiar with Tokdo - that they declared the island their own when they colonized Taiwan so tough shit. If they accept this fallacy, then they should accept that it’s tough shit if Russia takes over the Kuriles after Japan’s defeat. After all they are Russian islands that Japan lost.
Noolji makes a good point. Japan for decades have carefully and meticulously prepared their positions to win everyone over to their side, while Korea has only reacted with foaming in the mouth convulsions each time something happens to offend them - making them look like the fools. It’s a mark of two different cultures I guess. It’s not Korea’s character to patiently, quietly and meticulously work and lay down the foundations. That’s what Japan does so well.
The next person who wonders what is all this fuss is about over few rocks, take a look at this article. Like I have said all along and this ariticle supports my views, this dispute involves huge Won/Yen. It’s a fight over natural resources, it’s not just a nationalism issue.
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....70025.html
I had noticed this from the BBC, no less (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi.....357183.stm):
“Unification Minister Chung Dong-young vowed to defend South Korea’s sovereignty and said Japan was trying to justify its colonial past.”
Since when does *this* fool speak for Korea in international matters!?
I really hope this guy gets run over by a truck full of dung.
Pretty interesting how newpapers claim all the “whitewashing” of history in .01% of middle school books. They claim its worse because last time they bitch about 15 phrases or words they wanted changed and this time they want 25 changed. I would love kyopos or koreans to tell me what specific changes that they want in those .01% of japanese middle school books. Can you name the 25 things that are stealing histrory Kim? I didnt think so…
yes, dude, they can claim twenty-five things.
they have some specific things. in fact, they are simply pushing the japanese government to follow its own ‘asian neighbors’ guidelines.
http://www.asahi.com/english/H.....00126.html
the newspaper articles from 2001 are probably still around somewhere on line. go take a look.
it’s not quantity, dude, it’s quality. you may say 0.01%, but if you omitted, say, pearl harbor from a u.s. textbook, it would only be about 0.01%, but it would be a very, very important 0.01%.
the real slim sumi
Korean and Japanese history prove that Dokdo is korean irealnd.That’s why our goverment ignore when japan insist thir right because there is no value to talk about that, for instance, Jap insist that Hawai is their’s.
Moreover, they also had shameful history about world war 2nd; however, they don’t want to apologize about that, they igonre their shameful histort.
The history textbool which will release next year omit this part;in addition, they write that their terrible history was pride.
Dokdo problem also starts from same thinking way. They insist that when they controlled our country at that time, they forced our goverment to make unfair agreement. This agreement include Dokdo is their territory,in fact, at that time, all of our country was their territory. However, when we met with independence all of this agreement lost its effects and also our goverment recovered our country’s right and territory.
That is why.in these day, this stupid action ,which insist that Dokdo is japnese ireland, means that they want to go back to their shamful period of history because their evidences which assist their stupid opinions come from at that time. In addition, their stupid opinions means that they igonre our independence from them 60 years ago.
I strongly say to Japanese. You should reflect on ur shamful history and apologize to people who suffer from ur country at that time, also if u should reward to them, you must do that. Germany try to apologize and reward to Judish who suffer from world war 2nd, and German president visited Auswitz memorial park to express their feelings to Judish. However ur minister usually visit temple which obey the crimial of world war 2nd instead of visitin korea or china’s memorial park. Is it real apologize?
Is it real partnership? Is it real peace for North-east Asia?
Mr. Kim
i understand yours is typical korean condemnation.
please kindly check past media report that how many times prime ministers and even the emperor express regret in their official speech in the past at the summit meetings of two countries.
yes, some stupid ministers or civilians have made and express stupid remarks in the past, but sorry to say japan is free country and people are free to express their opinions. (and most cases those stupid ministers were fired after the remarks though)
so ordinary japanese recently wonder how should we do. each time things like this happen we are told we didnt apologize. getting fed up with it.
ah, mr. kim
one more thing. i agree that it is shameful to colonize other countries. and personally i apologize to you (if u are korean)
btw i would like to know your opinion why taiwanese people have not complained or condemn as korea has been, and why 2 countries did not work together to condemn japan in historical issue. ex-taiwanese president lee even published books praising some of good deed japan has done at colonial era. (saying this does not mean i am saying or justifying the occupation. i just want emphasize though it was no all bad, but some good deed)
japan coloneze these 2 countries around the same time aroud the same period, and to my knowledge japanese colonial policies on 2 countries were about the same.
mr. kim
i would say it is not fair for japanese to compare german.
germany had clear policy to extinct jewish people.
polish population has decreased by 4mil. before and after german occupation.
japan had peace treaties after w.w.2 with allied countries, countries in asia including korea and have paid certain compensation. we even gave up all japanese assets in korea worth $800billion and paid $500mil. in cash (500mil seems small but it was 1/3 of japanese dollar reserve at that time)
korea-japan has agreed that korean government was responsible to compensate individual koreans based on these compensation.
(by the way, many korean say japanese bribed a korean negotiator at that time to conclude unfaire treaty at 1965… i dont really know what to say to this)
yasukuni thing. personally i think it stupid of prime minister to do so.
but you should understand it is more of a cultural difference. japanese treat a dead man is all forgiven. i know chinese culture is different and history says many occasion they dug out a grave to embarrase dead body. so sin is sin even after his death in chinese value.
yasukuni is just like earlington in usa. we bury all soldiers fight for the country there for respect. there are few korean soldiers fought as japanese at the occupation time also buried. (personally i think it is one of tiny examples that we did not treat korean that bad in the past as koreans think. because buried in yasukuni means treating as national hero, whether a dead man likes it or not)
I’m not Mr.Kim Hyung Chul, but I’ll reply to you mae.
Mr. Kim
i understand yours is typical korean condemnation.
please kindly check past media report that how many times prime ministers and even the emperor express regret in their official speech in the past at the summit meetings of two countries.
.. followed up by white washed text books (each year getting worse), and occasional accidental gawfs by high ranking ministers of how Japan was great, and worshipping of war criminals, and glorifying Japanese empire at Yasukuni, throwing out court cases of Korean forced labourers who want to get back their back wages due from rich Zaibatsus. It would be really nice for a change (that is if Japan is really sorry), to back their statements up with actions, instead of meaningless mumble jumble said grudgingly.
yes, some stupid ministers or civilians have made and express stupid remarks in the past, but sorry to say japan is free country and people are free to express their opinions. (and most cases those stupid ministers were fired after the remarks though)
Unfortunately how true. In a democracy, freedom of speech must be honored. But isn’t it funny how Japanese obasans like Shintaro Ishihara who have been quoted as saying if there’s another earth quake in Japan, the foreigners (meaning Koreans and Chinese) will be rioting again, gets elected not just once, or twice, but every time? I doubt that Ishirara remembers 1923 Tokyo earthquake when it was the Japanese who went on a bloody riot, killing thousands of Koreans for causing the earth quake. Nor the Kobe earth quake when there were no foreigners rampaging on the streets. Why aren’t the Japanese voting out this racist clown if it’s just few opinions? Instead his hands are stronger than ever, almost ready to be the next PM. Have you ever heard the term voters get what they wish for?
“so ordinary japanese recently wonder how should we do. each time things like this happen we are told we didnt apologize. getting fed up with it. ”
I can appreciate your frustration, but I think I would understand what Japan is saying if only they would apologize. They never did in a lot of peoples’ books. The ordinary Japanese don’t owe anybody any apologies. It’s up to the country’s leaders to be brave enough to do what is right - stop being such stuck up assholes.
“btw i would like to know your opinion why taiwanese people have not complained or condemn as korea has been, and why 2 countries did not work together to condemn japan in historical issue. ex-taiwanese president lee even published books praising some of good deed japan has done at colonial era. (saying this does not mean i am saying or justifying the occupation. i just want emphasize though it was no all bad, but some good deed)
It does sound like you’re excusing your people’s history. Sure it wasn’t all bad. Japan did some good while doing some bad. But let’s be honest here, Japan’s good intentions weren’t all that honorable. Their goals were to eliminate and absorb the local cultures by making them submissive second class Japanese, and to train them to be obedient sub class people feeding the empire. All those nice factories, dams, machines.. who were they for? For the Japanese, and their collaborators.
As for Taiwan, the ex-president is a Chinese. The ruling class were the Chinese from the main land. Majority of Taiwanese are Chinese from the main land fleeing China after 1945. Most of them didn’t experience Japanese colonialism first hand. The ones who did, are the Taiwanese aboriginal natives who are in the distinct minority today.
Keep in mind I don’t hate the Japanese. My dad was born in Osaka in the 1930’s to Korean laborers who went to japan in search of work. He speaks fluent old Japanese. He was 11 years old when Japan bombed Pear Harbor. The radio blared “glorious victory for Japan” that day. He and his class sang the kimigayo. Did he belong to a chin-il-pa family? Maybe, depending how you define it. His family was just trying to survive anyway they could - not too different from the position that most Korean folks were in at that time. And to get ahead at that time, they had to cozy up to the Japanese enemy or starve to death. Does that mean they supported the Japanese occupation of Korea? No. The alternative would have been what hundreds of thousands did, flee the homeland for China or Russia.
“i would say it is not fair for japanese to compare german.”
Germany and Japan were allies during the war because they shared the same value of totalitarianism. Why is it not fair? Germany has come clean and they deal honestly with their history. They teach their kids about what Germany did during the war. Why is it not fair to expect the same from Japan?
“we even gave up all japanese assets in korea worth $800billion and paid $500mil. in cash (500mil seems small but it was 1/3 of japanese dollar reserve at that time)”
Correct. $500 million in grants and $300 million in loans in 1964. That is why the Korean government has never officially asked Japan for compensation at an official level. But then there are all these little guys who feel left out. Have you ever heard of the term money can’t buy you everything?
” yasukuni is just like earlington in usa. we bury all soldiers fight for the country there for respect. there are few korean soldiers fought as japanese at the occupation time also buried. ”
There was one Kamikaze fighter pilot who was Korean. He died when he slammed his plane somewhere in the Pacific.
You’re missing the point again. Every country has the right to honor their soldiers, no question about it. It’s not the war dead who are buried there that is the problem. It’s those dozen or so war criminals who are buried there, that are the problem. Plus the fact that the shrine glorifies Japan’s Empire - completely white washing history. That is the problem. Can you understand the difference?
“yasukuni is just like earlington in usa”
This is absolutely false. You are defending Imperial Japan before 1945.
nope no list.. thanks for the link. and the .01% refers to the percentage of students that USE the “history whitewashed” books. Now compare that with 100% of korean textbooks that are full of BS.
Anyway, when you can actually find the list that you are so offended about please let me know.
noolji maripkan wrote:
that cracked me up. noolji, you’re an evil genius! ^^
i think this would work. and oh, how so many japanese would go nuts. just be sure, out of courtesy, to warn the department stores so they can ban the sale of sushi knives ahead of time.
it got cut off, but i was talking about the stamps celebrating the paekche origins of the japanese imperial family.
i had read that only one or two schools end up approving the main offending textbook that was approved in 2001.
I have no idea how many schools approved it, but it was put into general circulation and hit #1.
Dude said:
Pretty interesting how newpapers claim all the ?橫whitewashing?? of history in .01% of middle school books. They claim its worse because last time they bitch about 15 phrases or words they wanted changed and this time they want 25 changed. I would love kyopos or koreans to tell me what specific changes that they want in those .01% of japanese middle school books. Can you name the 25 things that are stealing histrory Kim? I didnt think so???
Actually the text books Koreans are complaining about are only used in 0.04% of Schools. I would also like Kimbob to give some specific examples of whitewashing history (Although I know he cannot).
All I can say is that I agree with dude when he said:
nope no list.. thanks for the link. and the .01% refers to the percentage of students that USE the ?橫history whitewashed?? books. Now compare that with 100% of korean textbooks that are full of BS.
Which is absolutely true. Koreans have no right to complain to the Japanese on minor points when Korean history textbooks are full of distortions.
Fascinating posts.
Amazing that you feel the textbook will have so little impact considering the last version in 2001 became a national best seller in Japan.
It is also interesting to see people who think Japan doesn’t whitewash its history when even Japanese people themselves see the problem!
Read here. http://202.221.217.59/print/fe.....0223a1.htm
I find it unbelievable that anyone could condone the actions of those who would cover up the heinous crimes of Japan’s recent history.
I find it unbelievable that anyone could condone the actions of those who would cover up the heinous crimes of Japan??s recent history.
Plunge, point out specifically what henious crimes are being covered up.
plung is spreading his mindless progaganda, Norapark, has no list, not in korean japanese english, nothing. Why, the collective says there is a list and drone kyopos in unision claim repeat.
The korean collective says takashime is theirs. Kyopos from near and far claim its korean. If you ask them why, then the drone kyopo collective clame that the “sam gug sa ge” talks about silly dynasty owned it. Does the drone gyopo ask a question, do they challaneng the collective in any way. NOPE. Do the drone kyopo realize that takaehims is 94 kilometer away from ullongdo? and you must navigate to takeashima from ullongdo? Do the drone kyopo realize that you need to konw how to navigate the sea, you need a compass. Do the drone kyopos realize that the sillies didnt know how to navigate untill the 1800’s at the earliest. I guess along with sunghin Lee “iron boat” the koreans invented navigation methods.
Nope nope nope. All the drone kyopos care about is that they have orders from the hive and they alll must chant in unision that takeshima is korean.
Lesson number three: never question the hive. The collective is always right.
Dude, you did a deep hole for youself… Dokto is viewable from Ullongdo, which means its quite easy to get there from Ullongdo. Also please get your historic facts straight. And what do you mean by not know how to navigate until the 1800’s? Please do not show off your ignorance by making such posts.
resistance is futile. you will be asskicked.
dude, you’re just like one of those people i meet who still can’t believe korea had been working with moveable metal type two centuries before gutenberg still invented it. they were so mired in their loathing of korea that they wanted to believe korea couldn’t do anything.
so according to you korea couldn’t navigate boats. any reference for this? i’m not saying you’re wrong, but you’re really spewing a lot of nonsense.
and let’s say for the sake of argument that koreans hadn’t learned or developed the ability to navigate, then how the heck did they get to ull?ngdo (120 km from the mainland) in the first place, then?
okay, let’s say they somehow got to ull?ngdo. wouldn’t tokto be visible from ull?ngdo? i’m really asking, not saying.
my only reference for this is seeing catalina island from orange county beaches. it’s fifty kilometers away and you can clearly see the whole island, not just the 1000-meter highest point. tokto is only 1/3 of that height but twice as far away. i know that i can see the 1000-foot level (about tokto’s height) of catalina from the orange county shore, very clearly in fact, but would this be the case if it were nearly twice as far?
okay, let’s say for the sake of argument that you canNOT see tokto from there (although people say you can on a clear day, i’m not going to just swallow the rhetoric). it’s clear that the ull?ngdo people were engaged in fishing, and if they were engaged in fishing, they would probably feel at least safe enough to fish (despite their utter lack of navigational capabilities as alleged by dude) as long as they could see ull?ngdo.
ull?ngdo is also about 300 meters (1000 feet) in height, so they could probably get at least fifty kilometers and still see where they need to head back to. based on my own experience, then, i’m pretty sure you could be fifty kilometers off ull?ngdo and be able to see both islands at the same time.
and that means that, first, they would have known tokto exists long, long before the late chos?n period, and second, even without sophisticated navigation, it would have been possible to get to tokto by boat.
dude, you??re just like one of those people i meet who still can??t believe korea had been working with moveable metal type two centuries before gutenberg still invented it. they were so mired in their loathing of korea that they wanted to believe korea couldn??t do anything.
Nora, do not be so quick to claim credit for Koreans or compare what the Koreans were doing to Johannes Gutenberg’s invention of the printing press. Movable type printing was invented by 1041 AD by Bi Sheng in China. The metal type utilized by Korea in the 13th century represents and improvement on the chinese clay mixture, but not a revolutionary step forward. Nor can the use of metal in the Korean version of the Chinese movable type be described as an invention in anyway.
The Korean movable type cannot rightly be compared to Gutenbergs revolutionary invention of the printing press, which combined the press itself, type, paper and ink that made the invention a success.
shakuhachi, they have been enumerated time and time again, no need to rehash for a people who refuse to acknowledge or recognize past atrocities.
shakuhachi, they have been enumerated time and time again, no need to rehash for a people who refuse to acknowledge or recognize past atrocities.
No they havent been. And if they have, it should be easy to copy and paste them. Face it, you dont know what specific claims against Japanese textbooks Koreans are making.
shakuhachi,
you missed my point entirely. first, i never used the word ‘invention’ or ‘invent’ about korea and moveable metal type; i said that korea ‘had been working with moveable metal type two centuries before gutenberg’ invented it (i meant to say ’supposedly invented it’).
second, i made no claims about its importance or revolutionary effect relative to gutenberg’s ‘invention.’
way back when this first became an issue, non-korean types were insisting that no, this could not have happened. in the korean pride versus western textbooks, the western textbooks had to be right.
well when it turned out they were wrong, then the next stage came, grudging acknowledgement: okay, so koreans may have invented or developed the type, but they got the idea from the chinese and it didn’t have the same effect as gutenberg’s development.
so both the first claim (that korea didn’t develop it first) and the second claim (that korea’s ‘invention’ wasn’t really a big deal) both come from the same source: a loathing of korea and an unwillingness to grant even an inch on any korean claim.
there seems to be a lot of that here. by virtue of koreans making such a big deal out of this, they are likely wrong.
I’ve put this link on Marmot’s hole before, but I will put it up again.
http://cafe.naver.com/12131521.....ticleid=35
Yes Dokto is viewable from Ullongdo. Hey if I can see it I’m sure I can get to it. Different perspectives are great but please do some research so you don’t stick your foot in your mouth. (Okay okay I make the same mistakes by being lazy
)
shakuhachi,
the complaints about the 2001 textbook are a bit long and complicated for a mere cut-and-paste.
here’s a link on the nature of the errors:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/ce.....ppeal2.htm
here’s a link on japanese claims that the textbook was inaccurate:
http://english.enorth.com.cn/s.....1749.shtml
here’s a chosun ilbo editorial on the subject that goes into some specifics:
http://www.chosun.com/w21data/.....30399.html
you missed my point entirely.
Then what is the point of saying that Koreans were ‘working with movable type two centuries before gutenberg still invented it’, except to say that you think Koreans invented it first.
way back when this first became an issue, non-korean types were insisting that no, this could not have happened. in the korean pride versus western textbooks, the western textbooks had to be right.
No, people objected to the claim that Korea invented a priting press like the one invented by Gutenberg, along with his special inks, paper and type. What Koreans were doing was completely different.
so both the first claim (that korea didn??t develop it first) and the second claim (that korea??s ??invention?? wasn??t really a big deal) both come from the same source: a loathing of korea and an unwillingness to grant even an inch on any korean claim.
No Nora, the claim that Korea did not invent it first doesnt not come from a loathing of Korea. It comes from the fact that it was invented by China, not Korea.
Why dont you just say that Koreans were the first humans on the moon and everyone that disagress just has a loathing of Korea?
shakuhachi,
the complaints about the 2001 textbook are a bit long and complicated for a mere cut-and-paste.
here??s a link on the nature of the errors:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/ce.....ppeal2.htm
here??s a link on japanese claims that the textbook was inaccurate:
http://english.enorth.com.cn/s.....1749.shtml
here??s a chosun ilbo editorial on the subject that goes into some specifics:
“>http://www.chosun.com/w21data/.....30399.html
Only the first link goes into the specifics of the complaints, while the other two are totally worthless. Have you even read the first link? By the kind of things they are complaining about, there is very little whitewashing going on at all.
Okay let’s sum it up. (How did we get to printing press from Dokto? Wow.)
My source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
History of Korea — In Korean
Now if a Korean claims they invented a printing press, I would say, sorry but you’re wrong.
1. Block Printing: Assumed to be of Chinese origin.
2. Developed to moveable print press: Credit given to Bi Shen of China 1041 A.D.
3. Further refined to metal type moveable print press:
Credit given to Goryeo (Korea).
4. Furter refined (more like invented since Gutenberg was probably not aware of the previous moveable print press of China and Goryeo) to a very similar form of movable type of the modern day: Credit given to Gutenberg of Germany. (Other candidate as inventor: Laurents Janszoon Coster of Netherland)
I believe most knowledgeable Koreans (who actually read their history books) make the claim to having developed (invented) the first “metal” moveable type press. The history books and various information sites of Korea (official comments) also claim to have developed (invented the first “metal” type.
If a Korean claims that Korea developed the first press, or even the first moveable press, by all means feel free to criticize him/her on his lack of research, but please do not carry it further by downplaying korea’s role as a whole. Burst the bubble, but don’t trample and downplay actual facts. Are you the person who decides what developments (inventions) actually matter to be noticed or not? Innovations come in all shapes and sizes.
Well let’s get back to the Dokto issue (that was the original thread wasn’t it?). Marmot I think people are getting tired of the whole Dokto issue
Wow Plunge, great job. I will bookmark your sources for careful reading later on.
oh, this is too long and boring to go into. why am i doing this? i’ve got crap to do!
shakuhachi, in my first mention of this, i deliberately avoided saying ‘invent’ because i didn’t want to get into a discussion of whether it was china or korea that did it. many international academic sources i’ve seen lately describe movable metal type as a korean invention, an improvement over woodblocks and movable clay type used in china and korea (and probably elsewhere).
i avoided saying ‘invent’ because my whole point was that so many westerners were so used to learning things like “in 15th century Europe, Johann Gutenberg invented movable metal type which revolutionized Western printing, making mass-reproducing type and images practical,” that they couldn’t imagine koreans were already working with movable metal type two centuries earlier.
and when some westerners heard things like this, they reacted with typical superioristic swagger: no that must be wrong. you’re making it up or exaggerating something.
so here you are saying that was really said was not that he invented movable metal type, but the printing press (although that is in dispute). and anyway, it was the chinese who did it, not the koreans.
but there is evidence all over that westerners used to learn that gutenberg was the first to create metal movable type. even now, the american heritage dictionary lists him as the “German printer who is traditionally considered the inventor of movable type.” it doesn’t mention the printing press as his big claim to fame (although it is important), and neither did i.
as for koreans inventing the korean press, i didn’t say that at all. east asians did have a printing process using pressing, but i don’t know whether it would be called a printing press or not. some sites i’ve seen attribute such an invention to korea in 1403, some 150 years after the metal movable type.
but that’s not the issue. this is just an example of something you have illustrated so beautifully yourself: a lack of faith in significant accomplishment in korea, a criticism of claims to the contrary, an attack on the evidence of such claims to the contrary, and then, when such claims are shown to be likely correct, an evasive maneuver where you claim that’s not what was really being said all along.
or something like that.
i really like your question about why not just claim that koreans were the first human on the moon. what a great diversionary tactic. i wouldn’t say that because i know it’s not true. i am not going to claim something controversial like this is true or not true until i look into it first and satisfy myself.
i don’t buy everything that’s said about korea. i think a few too many koreans grasp on things that may or may not be true, or may or may not be important, out of knee-jerk nationalism. i think korea is too past oriented and not enough future oriented. i don’t think korea any longer has legitimate claim to taemado/tsushima. i do think the comfort women deserve compensation from japan, but i also think the korean government should be ponying up some of the money, too. i think korea needs to take a more objective look at its pre-1945 history. i think koreans should recognize that not all ‘collaborators’ were the evil, vile people the mass media has made them think the are.
lots of things do i believe that don’t fit into any agenda. but one thing i never fail to run into is the korea-loathing bashers who can’t stand to think postive thoughts about this country. it’s like they love to hate it.
so about this loathing. where does such sentiment come from? certainly not all westerners have it. certainly a few kyopo i know also have it. i think more ‘foreigner’ men have it than women.
in some cases i think it comes from cultural superiority, but that’s not all there is to it. i think that some people have had some seriously bad experiences here, often through little or no fault of their own, but they are diffusing their anger to the entire country.
welcome to being a minority. enjoy your stay. try to keep your chin up.
shakuhachi,
you or someone else seemed to be of the opinion that there were no specifics, so i gave some links that addressed some of the specifics. even the second links talk about the specific themes involved.
yes, i read the first one. that’s how i found the stuff.
Wow Plunge, great job. I will bookmark your sources for careful reading later on.
Here is another link for you that is similar to the ones posted by Plunge
Juan: It would have been a lot shorter with more links if Marmots spam software hadn’t kept eating it. *sigh*
Thanks for the link shakuhachi, but it doesn’t lead anywhere. Maybe its just my internet problem. Please recheck to see if the site works, or the link is correct.
shakuhachi: Wow, now it is North Korean propaganda eh? So, when people come up with what you ask for, ignore it and call it false. Reminds me of Japan’s rhetoric on Tokdo. If we yell enough and say that it is ours maybe they will begin to believe us.
Pretty pathetic shakuhachi.
shakuhachi wrote: “nor can the use of metal in the Korean version of the Chinese movable type be described as an invention in anyway.”
wait a minute, didn’t gutenberg go from wooden blocks to metal characters and thus end up considered the ‘inventor’ of that metal type?
if so (and i could be wrong about that), why wouldn’t going from clay type to developing movable metal type not also be an invention?
juan and shakuhachi,
links to the kcna website aren’t supposed to work from within korea.
the democratic government of the people is trying to protect us from ourselves.
f so (and i could be wrong about that), why wouldn??t going from clay type to developing movable metal type not also be an invention?
I will reiterate again. Guttenbergs invention comprised of his printing press, special inks, paper and type. It is completely different to what the Koreans were using. Korean did not invent movable type. That was invented by the Chinese. The Koreans improved on it by replacing clay with metal, which does not break so easily. That is it. It was an ‘improvement’, not an invention.
The interesting thing about this thread is that I now know who on marmot are Koreans. Koreans are generally poor debaters and usually throw around insults or say you hate Korea when they are losing the debate. I find this aspect of the Korean ?????? fascinating. Surely it must be rooted in ultra-nationalism and ?????????? persecution complex.
shakuhachi,
for years, gutenberg was considered the inventor of movable metal type. look it up. that was his claim to fame.
so when it was pointed out that, no, koreans had invented this, there was disbelief and resistance.
here you say that the development was a mere improvement and not an ‘invention’ (why not the same for gutenberg, then?). fine, but that does not negate my point: that people used to believing one thing about the west had difficulty believing the idea that it had been developed/invented/improved up/whatever-ed in korea first.
so now you shift it, to gutenberg actually inventing the printing press, which hey may or may not have done first, the inks, and the paper (which came to him from china, via the arab world and spain).
i’m not knocking gutenberg. he deserves credit for what he developed and the revolution in europe that came afterward. i’m not knocking the guy.
i’m using the illustration from high school textbooks from throughout the 20th century which suggested the first to invent something that in fact was developed/created/invented/improved up in korea, and the reaction to the korean _and_ chinese developments was much as you have illustrated: denial, resistance, and backtracking.
as for your comment that you know who the koreans are because they’re poor debaters and through around insults or say you hate korea when they are losing the debate, well, i think you have trouble telling the difference between someone losing an argument with you and someone merely disagreeing with you.
look at what i’ve written here. there are a lot of people i don’t agree with that i’m not callling a korea loather or a korea basher. i reserve that for people who do what you do because it does seem as if your motivation is not finding out what’s really going on but just bringing korean down a peg.
i just wonder what motivates that.
Koreans are generally poor debaters and usually throw around insults or say you hate Korea when they are losing the debate. I find this aspect of the Korean ?????? fascinating. Surely it must be rooted in ultra-nationalism and ?????????? persecution complex.
And with that shakuhachi, you paint yourself with the brush you try and paint others with.
Comeback again sometime.
Next!
through around insults — throw around insults
bringing korean down a peg — bringing korea down a peg
god, i must seem like such a fob.
Umm… Shakuhachi, was that another post where only I see contempt? Another example of knee jerk post by you peppered with half-truth. Now I’m sure you can form a post into a constructive criticism with the same content.
(For readers wondering what this is about read the tit-for-tat between me and shakuhachi on “Dokdo a’ go-go”. I’m actually beginning to enjoy this
Won you are on to one thing, if you repete something enought it becomes truth. I guess gobbles said that. You learn from the hive very well.
Won… You can see that 94 kilometers, with your bare
eyes? did you know the world is round and not flat. I
know a brilliant man such as yourself won realizes
that even wiht the curvature of the earth, if you are
up really really high you can see farther. But guess
what. Korean boats didnt have a 50 meter crow tower.
Hey norapark, why don??t you ask your kyopo buddy Jodi at asia pages if she can see Tsushima island from the higest point in Busan. Nope she cant,, and its closer to korea then takeashima is to ullongdong isalnd
YoMa, I like what you have to say. koreans should
fight for what they belive it. If past korean kings
had that idea then korean history would look diferent.
If current koreans felt that way then, maybe less
people would cut their fingers off and set them self
on fire and then bitch and moan about how japan
“stole” their fingers.
if you are willing to fight for somthing that says a
lot more about your character then crying about how
weak you are. Do koreans want to fight,
they have never been willing to fight. Look at what
Hamel said in 1655
“Tartarians came over the ice and occupied the
country, more soldiers hanged themselves in the wood,
than had been killed during the battle against the
invaders”
I also reccomemnd reading what horice underwood worte in the 1933 edition of the asiatic society titled” Korean boats and ships” it gives a lengthy discussion on korean navagtion or lack thereof.
for years, gutenberg was considered the inventor of movable metal type. look it up. that was his claim to fame
If he was considered the inventor of movable type, then it is because of his invention of the Gutenberg press which made the use of movable type practical.
Not that is has anything to do with koreans BECAUSE THEY DID NOT INVENT MOVABLE TYPE - movable type is a Chinese invention. Tae Kwon Do is a modified copy of Japanese Shotokan Karate, not an original Korean martial art. Yudo is Japanese Judo, not Korean. Kumdo is Japanese Kendo, not Korean. Samurai are not decended from the Hwarang because the flower boys (?????) were not warriors. Koreans
did not invent hanja, Chinese did. Hapkido is Japanese Aikido, not Korean. Tekkyon is Chinese Kenpo, not Korean.
Thats just some examples. I already gave Koreans credit for improving on the clay movable type, but you try to change the terms of the debate and just say the truth is ‘hate’. You are a slippery debater but any non-Korean here can see you were beaten long ago.
Nora instead of making up these imaginary foreigner that scoff when you tell them all the greatness of the great korean people. Why not just try and find out the truth yourself. I think the truth will set you free. If you take an neutral position, like mine, then look into koreas claims .. inventing this first, or the first to creating that.. or the first to discover takeshima.. etc. and just do the research instead of only looking at information that supports your established borg (hive) opinion then I think you may change your mind. Just because I dissagree with the progaganda doesnt mean that I must “hate korea”. No infact, lots and lots of nations look criticaly at their own histry and search for the truth. They do get critized by the nationalists but the truth is not so bad.
look at robert kim, a hero in the hearts of all koreans and kyopos alike. He claims that now he just wants to educate koreans about the evils of usa. Well, no doubt he can find some things that are wrong with the USA, hoever the yankees dont kick him out. Nope he is still a citizen of the country he betrayed. I am sure lots and lots of kyopos are critlcle of the USA. Infact, your blog is a great example.
shakuhachi,
you keep harping on this one sentence, so i will correct it: i did not say koreans invented movable type. i did, however, allude to them inventing movable _metal_ type, which you later describe as a mere improvement and not an i