Stock up on instant noodles. Horde the bottled water.
Because the balloon has gone up.
Yep, the shit has hit the fan.
I’m going to head up to the top of the Chosun Ilbo building in a couple of minutes to see if I can chuck coffee cans at low-flying Mitsubishi Zeros.
47 Comments
Awww… What the BEEP!
I am currently in class. (Logic)
Marmot you have just livened up my boring day, in a rather bad way
A Korean-American professor of mine said back in the mid-90’s (when the World Cup furor over naming and finals and splitting the event was in full force) that the day the Korean public, press, and politicians ignore a provocation from the Japanese will be the day that Korea will finally gain the upper hand on Japan.
It’s obvious to anyone that’s observed both countries that we will likely never, ever see that day come to pass.
And I’m starting to believe that Koreans actually prefer it that way. They’ve become so comfortable with the devilish oppression of the Japanese (and the Americans) that they would have no idea how to function without them.
Does this mean that we should change our PATRIOT Primary Target Lines to the east and southeast?
Damn it Marmot, you had me shocked for a minute there. When I immediately saw the headline while responding to another post, I actually thought you meant a real war had begun. At least on the bright side for the Chinese, no one is complaining about Koguryo/Gando anymore and the issue seems to have died in the face of “Japanese irridentist aggression on sovereign Korean territory”.
A day that will live in infamy……..or something like that
I see more rational reactions of Korean posters here than other sites.
Anyway, I wonder if there is any rational or reasonable ways to solve the issue instead of name calling or burning flags.
Either side has its own reason. I mean c’mon! who really can prove right or wrong on maps or docments 100 years or more old?
As a Japanese I really don’t care about small rocks. And I wish Koreans know Japan is a democratic country as Korea so everyone can express his opinion and that does not represent an opinion of All Japanese. Shimane is a poor tiny province depending on fishery. They just want to share some part of fish rights. Basically they have no legal right on diplomacy.
It bit bothers me, though, Korean seems to be totally unified in this issue, no room for a Korean to express some other opinion, that reminds me of its brother in North.
Mae, while I agree with the Korean opinion that Tokdo belongs to Korea, I think you have pointed out how little this means to most Japanese as opposed to seemingly everyone in Korea. People are extremely emotional about the issue right now; whatever logic there may have been surrounding the debate has gone out the window. Take care of yourself!
Am I the only one who sees the inconsistency in the Korean government’s statements?
First: “The government declares that such a reckless act by Shimane Prefecture carries no effect in terms of international law and does not have any effect on the current status of Dokdo.”
Then: “Lee demanded the abolition of the legislation, condemning it as an attempt with ‘impure motives’ aimed at damaging South Korea’s sovereignty.”
Gerry: If it has “no effect,” then why bother demanding its abolition?
First: “Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon declared earlier that Dokdo can never be a subject of territorial dispute and negotiation.”
Then: “While lodging a formal protest with Tokyo through diplomatic channels, South Korea planned to hold a National Security Council meeting on Thursday to review the situation, Ban said before Shimane adopted the motion.”
Gerry: It sounds like a “territorial dispute” to me. In fact, Yonhap described it as “The dispute” in the next paragraph.
Gerry: So if there is “no dispute” and the legislation has “no effect,” then why all the fuss?
candu. Yeah, I know.
Now living in Seoul, I try my best to be careful.
But I wish there would be more rational approach from Korean people someday.
Some people in Japan thinks Dokdo belongs to Japan but some are not.
We have 6 history textbooks, and the government can not enforce the contents.
The text book which is now in big issue is used only 0.04% of schools in Japan.
Isn’t it too much for a government to make pressure on another government to control the contents of the text book which the government can not legally control?
BTW it was quite a shock to me that Prof. Han at Koryo Univ. practially expell from the academic world in Korea. Does everyone have to have perfectly the same opinion on the evil Japanese colonization era? I do admit we caused suffer of Korean people in the past but still not sure if it was only the evil deed.
This headline is great…
Forget the Zeros - I’d like to see those F-15’s with the sakura paintings.
Jing — sorry about that, but someone needs to maintain a modicum of a sense of humor about this whole mess. The Chosun Ilbo sure as hell ain’t — the piece isn’t posted yet, but the article I had to translate on the story ealier was downright grim. YTN, too, has talked about nothing else since I walked into the office. You’d think the Japanese had landed in Busan and were making their way to the Mungyeong Sae Jae. Some great footage, though.
Mae — I’m not sure if you’ll find many “Korean” posters at this site, per say.
QUOTE Mae, while I agree with the Korean opinion that Tokdo belongs to Korea, I think you have pointed out how little this means to most Japanese as opposed to seemingly everyone in Korea. UNQUOTE
I personally agree with the Korean opinion that these two rocks are Korean. Due to very different views about territorial sovereignty in pre-modern times, all historical arguments are very thin, but the actual long-term occupation matters. But I feel very annoyed by this outbreak of hysteria. It once again shows the tremendous power of nationalism here, and nationalism has a very sad tendency: it creates troubles for its bearers, not only for their neighbours.
Is it going to be one outburst of hysterics a year? Koguryo, Tokto, what’s next? Kando? Posiet? Does the Korean elite (left-leaning this time, right-leaning some other times) understand that they are damaging their relations with virtuall all their neigbours, getting nothing in return? After all, the ‘Takeshima day’ was indeed a mild provocation by the Japanese side, but this is still just a minor decision by a local government. Well, Koreans could easily retaliate on a similar level - level of a provincial government, that is, and then move on to deal with more urgent matters.
Marmot, Woops, well, by reading the method of discussion and express its argument by some of posters here makes me think they are Koreans….
New to this site. Odd to know that all the “Digital Chosunilbo” aricles I’ve been reading are from Marmot.
As a KA, I find this a non-issue relative to international relations. Let a province in Japan complain, it doesn’t change anything in Korea. Let Koreans steam and get angry, it doesn’t change where the rocks are or the arguments on either side.
I find the revisionist textbooks issue to be a far more salient intrusion into the Korean psyche.
Still, I must say, it’d be fun to see a small action over the two rocks with a flag sitting on it. I can imagine Japanse troops setting up shop on the rocks, and Korean fishermen coming by and pushing them into the sea with water cannon. Would it be ironic if a war over the islets ended up destroying them?
I begin to see a pattern to it all: yesterday, my neighbor — an older, uneducated woman — had the local gu chop up the beautiful ginko trees in back because: a) they made the air “stuffy”, b) they blocked the light from the south and last year she thought someone was trying to climb them to get into her window, even though the branches are (were) too small. Forget the fact that a) trees *make* oxygen and b) the sun is not in the south, the gu people chopped off every branch since the woman kept irratating them with her phone calls and because they had no ability to say “no” to an obviously irrational person. None of us can enjoy the trees because of my crazy neighbor.
Then, there is Dokdo . . .
“frogs in a well”
So can we get a vote on a “main enemy” designation yet?
Goreans are of one opinion on everything. They are the BORG.
I say the U.S. should have the damn rocks. If you must squabble over them then we’ll take the toys away.
[grump]Kids.[/grump]
A Korean-American professor of mine said back in the mid-90??s (when the World Cup furor over naming and finals and splitting the event was in full force) that the day the Korean public, press, and politicians ignore a provocation from the Japanese will be the day that Korea will finally gain the upper hand on Japan
But does that apply to all countries or only to the Korea - Japan relationship? Can all countries ignore provocation from other countries and gain the the “upper hand”? What do you mean by “upper hand”? Are there other countries that are beyond such events? Did the Koreans suddenly develop a new form of argument?
b) the sun is not in the south
slight correction: the sun is in the south in south korea for about 90% of the year.
I heard a story that in the 1965 negotiations over the normalization of relations between Japan and Korea that Kim Jong Pil offered to blow them up as target practice for the Korean navy, thereby solving the problem. I’m not sure that it’s true, but maybe a similar solution should be advanced.
“Shimane is a poor tiny province depending on fishery. They just want to share some part of fish rights. Basically they have no legal right on diplomacy.” - Mae
Korea’s reaction is a typical emotionalism whipped up by the media and the government. It’s result is a whipping up of the anti-Japan feelings. But in my opinion, based on past conflicts, I don’t think Japanese in Korea have to worry too much about physical attacks. Korea’s not like China where Japanese soccer fans were attacked in mass. This is just another storm, it will blow over in few weeks and everything will be forgotten until another switch goes on. One thing I disagree with you is that this is just a small Japanese province’s passing of the bill. Although Koizumi is asking for calm, behind the scenes, Japanese governement for the most part approves the passing of the Takeshima bill. Otherwise why have we not seen any Japanese government or media opposition to the move, unless they quietly agree with them. They should know full well that this move will hurt Japan-Korea relationship - yet no real opposition but subtle hints of approval. Just because Japan is playing this game quietly, it doesn’t mean they aren’t in the game. Perhaps ordinary Japanese citizens don’t care too much because it’s never been Japanese - so there is less attachment to it.
Gerry:
If the rocks are given to Japan, the entire Korean population on the island of Ullungdo will probably need to be evacuated. From Ullungdo, you can see Tokdo. With the loss of Tokdo, the islanders on Ullungdo will lose their rich fishing grounds. Fishing is their only livelihood, they will not be able to make a living - even worse, the island full of unemployed people will come under Japanese influence - which will virtually gaurantee a defacto loss of economic sovereignty to Japanese spherical control over Ullungdo.
I can understand why Korea will not take this to the courts, the benefits of a moral victory is fantastically outweighed by the effects of a possible loss in the international courts. Before you go to the courts, you need to calculate the benefits of a win versus effects of a possible loss. I just don’t see the math or a hard case to push for the international courts. If Japan goes to court and lose, they have nothing to lose other then their old claims - no economic loss really. If Korea loses - it will have a devastating effect on Korea economically. Too much to lose, not much to gain. Korea would be stupid if they do go to the courts.
In additioin, I really do not think you would want to open up a can of worms here. If Tokdo, then why not Tsushima and Gando to reclaim all the old historic lands through the courts? There will be no end. The best solution for everyone would be to just accept the current boundaries and whoever has been occupying for a while, gets to call their territory their own.
dont forget, the takeshima island dispute gives the Koerans a reason to be outraged and gives them more nonsence to belive in. And if Japan ever did give up on its territorial rights to takeshima, that would teach korea that bitching, flag eating, and finger cutting off will get results.
I think that the Koreans would be smart to offer joint fishing rights, and joint rights to natural resources. I guess they already agreed on the fishing rights, but then the Korean side didnt honor its end of the deal. Hmm… sound familiar?
Anyway, its really funny to see the hundreds of korean newspaper articles on this subject, and the 2-3 Japanese ones. The Korean ones promise to lynch all the japanese.. and the Japanese stories are about 50 words about the issue. Some of the Korean articles are truly funny. I think the Korean herald claims that because of the Takeshima issue, its understandable to hate japanese. Are we in korea talking about japan or Syria talking about the evil Jews.
kimbob,
I don’t know much about politics, and yes it is possible
that the central government of Japan could have kill the bill.
But typical sentiment of local government in recent days is
if the central government tried to intervene, they immediately
raise the issue and media would start screaming as typcal
media behavior in Japan is anti-central government.
Shawn Lee,
As in my previous post, the particular textbook is just one of 6.
I think (someone correct me if I’m wrong) it is unconstitutional
if the government put a pressure on a publisher of the textbook
what to write. (it is reflection from the past. Before WW II, it was
the one and only government written and approved textbook)
I really wish Korean media rationally explain these facts to the
public.
if what the media reported were really true, then maybe some of the outrage would be warranted.
but it’s not. the korean media tells half the story in order to push people’s buttons. when some people try to speak out to tell the other side, they are threatened with the loss of their job or worse.
i pity the average korean who looks at the leftist media and then at the rightist media and hopes that between the two she/he is getting the whole picture, because that ain’t happening.
the korean media is full of yellow journalists with an agenda. oh, my news whipping up anti-american or anti-japanese sentiment, right-wing agenda on the other side with their b.s.
a damn shame.
anyway, korea should respond in kind. kyongbuk province should declare all of ullung county, which includes tokto, as a provincial park. that’s a nice “local” reaction on par with shimane’s local action. it also strengthens korea’s position of strength (they occupy the freakin’ rocks!).
here’s part of the problem: korea is so used to playing the victim or the martyr, they don’t know how to act when they are actually in a position of strength. they’re over-reacting and overplaying their hand because of a few jingoists over in an obscure japanese prefecture (no offense, mae).
i think the right-wingers in shimane are probably enjoying the attention.
Koreans are a funny people. They love getting whipped into a frenzy about something/anything. It’s all about getting all emotional and rational thought usually goes right out the window (course most Koreans don’t have many rational thoughts to begin with). If feelings are hurt in the process, sharing a few shots of soju after things have calmed down usually results in all being forgiven and forgotten. It’s an endearing if extremely irritating quality.
Problem is that this approach doesn’t work too well when it comes to diplomacy between nations. Also neither Westerners or Japanese operate like this so even on an individual level they rarely bother to have the soju shot session with Koreans after the flare-up has settled down.
Yes, frustrating and damn shame that Korea has the upper hand here and they don’t even realize it. About the media, can’t agree more. They’re doing it again whipping the public into a frenzy, as if all of Japan cares at all. Imagine the average Korean who reads, watches this all day in the news. They’re going to think they’re about to be invaded. Then multiply that by how many times they’ve been indoctrinated over their lifetime and you see the result. Talk about overreaction..
Why can’t the media be passionate about seeing North Koreans getting executed? Something is terribly out of balance here. S.Korea is completely stuck on history and the past while there are pressing needs that need to be immediately addressed like North Korea, the economy, and the rapidly dissolving relationship with the US. At this rate, Korea will have absolutely no friends left in the world. S.Korean politicians are bunch of inexperienced amatures who keep sticking their feet into their mouths to the detriment of the country. They should be the ones who should be keeping a cool head and who should be in control instead of giving in (and whipping up) to public sentiments. What bunch of clowns and simpletons. And these are supposed to be the guys who are going to lead Korea into a “global hub”?? Good lord.
Bluejeans: The story about Kim Jong-pil’s offer to blow up Tokto is true. I can find a reference if you like.
Somehow don’t think this would solve anything (the fish probably wouldn’t like it either). Largely because nationalism is a neccessary ideological prop for ruling elites in Korea and Japan (well, just about anywhere truth be told). The Tokto issue is meaningless in itself, just a convenient trigger point.
“But does that apply to all countries or only to the Korea - Japan relationship?”
It applies to all formerly occupied countries which are incapable of dealing rationally or reasonably with their former occupiers. Make your own list for all I care.
“Can all countries ignore provocation from other countries and gain the the ?橫upper hand???”
Yes, they can.
“What do you mean by ??upper hand???”
I mean the psychological (and increasingly diplomatic) advantage of being above meaningless provocation, as opposed to being a dog that salivates every time the tuning fork is hit.
“Are there other countries that are beyond such events?”
There are. They’re known as the advanced world.
“Did the Koreans suddenly develop a new form of argument?”
No they did not. There is nothing new under the sun in Korea. They rally around their so-called pride at every opportunity available. They jump every time Japan or China or America says so, and exert all their energy screaming, cutting off fingers, and chanting bullshit slogans instead of tackling actual problems that have real effects on their everyday lives.
In fact the Koreans believe that every criticism or insult from every idiot out there is worthy of a response, and that is why you see right-wing Japanese poking sticks at the Korean monkey. They love to watch it jump around and make a lot of noise, and the monkey never disappoints. All the while the monkey’s too busy jumping to notice the piles of shit and piss accumulating all over its cage.
I would like to take this moment to thank the good people of Shimane prefecture. They have succeeded in uniting the Korean population behind unpopular Uri Party. (A staggering feat, considering how unpopular No Moo Hyun is) Please continue to claim that Dokdo is Takeshima and while you are at it, please convince Shintaro over at Tokyo to print more textbooks. In this way, No Moo Hyun can finally confidently proclaim that he is Kim Jong Il’s vassal, firmly united to stand against Japanese imperialism.
(sarcasm off)
One of these days Dr. NO will just cede control of Dokdo to his master in Pyong Yang. It will be somewhat funny to see what the Japanese think when they start seeing NK “fishing boats” by Shimane prefecture.
From the Chosun: “At a time when the two countries have proclaimed a friendship year marking the 40th anniversary of the normalization of ties, Japan has committed a hostile act not far from a declaration of war.”
Anyone else see a distinct shade of North Korea in this statement? This could easily come straight out of the KCNA, where every statement by Condi Rice or quote by Koizumi is a “declaration of war.” The next time you hear a South Korean editorial dismiss the “emotional rhetoric” of their brothers in the North, you go ahead and point them in the direction of this issue.
When the largest and most influential paper in the country is comparing a absolutely meaningless gesture by a minor Japanese prefecture to a declaration of war….the level of delusional paranoia in the South is finally on par with that in the North.
And that’s not a compliment.
check out this crazy awesome post in Korean regarding this whole mess….its conspiracy theory seems a bit far fetched, but what do I know, I’m only a civilian…
http://kr.netizen.news.yahoo.c.....arch_form=
Some pretty wack stuff, Jung. But fun to read.
This is also good reading, although much less far-fetched:
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=101
Probably deserves a translation, as there is some pretty decent stuff in there.
Kimbob, Mae, Lankov, Nora, etc.
I think a lot you make good points, like on how the media is pushing this further than it should. Has anyone written to the Korea Times, Donga, etc. to express their views? I think we have to shake off the victim mentality and take measured responses to issues like this.
what the hell is up with these japanese planes repeatedly and deliberately getting near Korean airspace? Wat the hell is going on here?
My post is directed to those who dont understand why Koreans are raising such a fuss….
If an imperialistic country took over you country and basically bastardised it for a hundred years, came back at you and now said a couple of rocks with prime fishing grounds was theirs and that they were taking em’ back…..
How would you react???
Bluejeans, as Kotaji already answered, what you heard is true, although I did not learn it from mainstream Korean history textbook. According to Prof. Shin Yong Hwa, Kim Jong Pil took the money from Japan, and Korean netizens criticized former Korean presidents and politicians, if you check out this link:
http://news.hankooki.com/lpage.....121000.htm
It seems that Japanese fishers could go fishing around the island since 1999. If fishing rights is not the main reason, what??s the motivation for the Japanese current interest in the island? I think that the Japanese right wings bring this to gain their political ground and cool down so-called Hanryu or Yonsama thing. When I went to Lotte Busan duty free shop a week ago, I saw Japanese tourist women (both old and young) buying Yonsama photos and accessories at the special Yonsama shop. (Damn, many Koreans don??t even think that Yonsama is hot.) Anyway, what Japan and Korea should do is to execute (?) their corrupt politicians (regardless of right wing or left wing).
Steve, I would be pissed (I wouldn’t cut my finger though)…
Goodness, the way things are going now, I’d watch my back if I was DJ.
“They should know full well that this move will hurt Japan-Korea relationship - yet no real opposition but subtle hints of approval. Just because Japan is playing this game quietly, it doesn??t mean they aren??t in the game.”
I completely agree with Kimbob’s statement above. And the Japanese really know how to push Korean’s buttons, I must say. But I am also overly amazed by the clumsiness of the Korean government. A reasoned response to the matter would have been monumentally better than to start throwing all this rhetoric around knowing full well how the Korean people would react. Both countries are looking pretty stupid to the rest of the world (Korea moreso).
Someone should burn Bin Laden in effigy on Dokto, perhaps he’ll find a way to blow the islets up (sorry fishy’s). Then no islets for Korea and no fish for Japan…NO FISHY FOR YOU!!! Everybody will blame the islamic extremist (which will make Bush happy), Korea will have enough justification for having troops in Iraq, Shimane Prefecture will have to anull the whole “Takeshima Day” bill (which will bring Japan/Korea just that much more closer…new finger not included) and YONSAMA will be saved!!!
check out this crazy awesome post in Korean regarding this whole mess??.its conspiracy theory seems a bit far fetched, but what do I know, I??m only a civilian??? -Jung
I don’t know. It doesn’t sound all that far fetched to me. It’s looking more and more like latent empirialist elements from all sides are positioning their countries, whether their population wants it or not, in to another cold war type scenario.
As usual the Japanese seem to be planning on riding the back of a foreign gorilla to get what their neighbors will rightfully not give them. Typical.
Anyway, let’s hope this one works out more like the cold war and end over economic fallout rather then like WWII over nukes.
Sometimes Koreans love to be psyched about something. This Dokdo thing happened when nothing exciting was happening, i.e. no soccer matches. Fortunately there will be one next week when the Korean National Team plays Saudi Arabia for the Worldcup qualifying.
After that game, no Korean will remember Dokdo. They will say “Is that an island name?” Short attention span helped Koreans from going into deep depression.
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