The WaPo ran a piece Monday by David Cho on the Korean community of Annandale, Virginia and the multiplicity of issues at play as the Koreans gain economic and social clout in the town. Terrific piece that those with an interest in the matter would do well to check out. Here’s a snippet:
The Giant Directory — one of four Korean telephone books in the region — lists 929 businesses in Annandale that cater to Koreans, nine times as many as in 1990 and about one-third of all Korean businesses in the Washington area.
Still, the term Koreatown offends some members of the area’s civic associations who are mostly non-Asian and who protest whenever their hometown is referred to as a Korean enclave, especially because relatively few Koreans live there.
“Koreatown is a divisive word,” said Eileen Garnett, a civic leader who has lived in the neighborhood for more than three decades. “We can be more than that, and we don’t want to become that. . . . We like to see this as an inclusive place.”
Yet many Koreans who work in the Village Centre and who run more than half its businesses said they feel slighted by such comments and ask: Why shouldn’t the area be known as Koreatown? After all, many Korean business owners said, the downtown was faltering before they came along. Today, it is thriving.
“Many Korean Americans will say Annandale is Koreatown, but I don’t think that should make anyone upset,” said Young Kim, president of the Korean American Association of Greater Washington. “I understand why [non-Koreans] don’t like that. I just hope they understand what Koreans have done for Annandale.”
Adamu over at Mutant Frog (whose post led me to the piece) talks about the neighborhood, and asks why Koreans continue to go to the U.S. of A. Well, I’m not really in a position to say. BJ Lee of Newsweek wrote a piece last year on why he believed wealthy Koreans were leaving the country. In a contribution to OhMyNews, however, Uri Party lawmaker Choi Jae-chun said, to write bluntly, that BJ Lee was full of shit, and quoted these figures on Korean emigration to the U.S.:
According to Foreign Ministry records, the number of emigrants from Korea has been gradually decreasing in 1986, when 37,097 people left the country. In particular, those heading to the United States fell off dramatically from 30,548 in 1986 to 4,200 in 2003 and 3,304 as of August 2004. In the case of those moving for business or investment purposes, the number has decreased from 4,057 in 1992, the year when people could begin freely leaving, to roughly 37 percent of that total with 1,496 in 2003.
So, with development and democratization, the numbers would seem to be coming down. As for why people continue to move to the States, a major motivator I keep hearing is a desire on the part of Korean parents to keep their kids out of the Korean education system. As a product of the American public education system, I’m always amazed that their are people who would actually choose to put their kids in an American school prior to college, but hey, to each their own. I’d guess others might go to the U.S. for the same reason other people from developed countries go to the U.S. Koreans or Korean-Americans reading this, of course, could give you a better explanation as to why Koreans immigrate to the States than I could.
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What’s missing in those stats: the number of those Koreans who return to Korea. Not all of them are success stories. I read somewhere that as much as 30% of K-immigrants can’t hack it in Canada. They end up going back someday. I think many of them wake up to the fact that there are no streets paved in gold and that you have to start all over from scratch with not many choices other than convenience stores and laundro mats . I’ve seen typical immigrants on the average, bring in half a million dollars after they sell their apartments in Korea. But that’s not too much money after they buy a car and a house with nothing else to do. Why do they still want to immigrate out of Korea? Simple: to escape the rat race, or in my parent’s case, escape from bankruptsy and creditors.
As a resident of Annandale, I was surprised that in describing the breakdown of the local population, the story pretty much ignores the large latino community that has moved into the area in the past ten years. When driving through A-Dale you’re probably twice as likely to see Latino residents walking around as you will Koreans.
As for the sign issue, maybe its because I’ve lived in Korea, but I really don’t see all the hangul in the area as drowning out English signage. Most signs and menus I see are bilingual. Other than the outstanding displays of Korean driving etiquitte I see here on a daily basis, Annandale has very little to make whitey think twice before entering.
As for those who see “Koreatown” as a divisive word, most of the people who have lived in the area for decades (i.e, moneyed older white folks) have seen the values of their homes quadruple along with the flood of relatively affluent newcomers. As far as I see, no one who bought a house in Annandale before 1995 should be complaining. Any discomfort with the word “Koreatown” probably stems from other issues that have nothing to do with economics.
That’s the same with Palisades Park, NJ…there are tons of latino workers employed by korean businesses, but white folks don’t complain about them becuz latinos are not the ones transforming the business district to look the opposite of what in their minds an “american” town ought to look like. To some extent I understand the white frustration but it has to be remembered that ethnic enclaves are also partly the result of foreigners having to deal with frustrations in dealing with white folks.
Of course Latinos have to be there - who’d deal with all the hot coals at the kalbi jib if they weren’t around? At least in the midwest US, you don’t often see anyone but Latinos doing the dirty work in Korean sikdangs.
As for Marmot wondering why on earth they’d want to put their kids in American schools, i think he is missing something. American public shools are like the American health system - if you have what it takes, you’ll thrive in their system. Of course, in the case of the private health system, money is what it takes. For schools, you certainly still need money enough to be in the right district, but if you do, if your child works hard, they’ll do very well. From personal experience as an educator and anecdotes from fellow teachers around the U.S., Korean immigrant children, especially those with parents who have the time/money to participate in the whole realms of activities available, can become different people than they would have become back in Korea. And how very much more so for girls, whose number of new opportunities in the United States could even double those of their male counterparts (a sometimes sad and tragic tale, actually).
I’ve been to Annandale; Doraville (Atlanta); Lincolnwood (Chicago); Columbia, Missouri; as well as a host of other “Koreatowns,” mostly around US bases. A frequent observation is that Koreans marry GIs, come to the States, bring their families over from Korea, then divorce the GI. If the GI catches on to the scheme early on, the divorce comes early, and the wife ends up working in an “Oriental” or “Asian” massage parlor or restaurant, never to return to Korea because she is disowned by her family.
Another trend relating to the educational sytem was explained to me by a retired Korean colonel last December. He said that wealthy Koreans are sending their kids to school in the States because that is their “out” when the Korean economy collapses. These Korean students are apparently sitting on vast sums of capital which will be used to start a new life once Korea goes belly-up due to unification or burst of the credit bubble.
Truths in all these posts. But Jung, the major “frustration” you note of people having to “deal with white folks” tends to arise from the language barrier. Add to this the desire of most people in foreign lands to surround themselves with something familiar, and you have ethnic enclaves. Don’t overlook the class issue. Some ethnic communities are cross-sections of their own nations, some tend to consist of their countries’ middle class, and some consist primarily of those who could not make it in their own countries for political, ethnic, or class reasons. These differences are quite visible within the various latin communities, i.e. Cubans vis-a-vis Puerto Ricans, and often a bellweather as to how well that group will succeed (or not) in the United States. Illiterate latin farmworkers who get across the border generally end up living better than they did in their home countries, but often remain at the bottom of the U.S. socio-economic ladder. Middle class groups succeed. The Greeks, Lebanese, Syrians, and Armenians move up and become business owners or professonals, and I would expect no less of the Koreans. Thus the class cross-section of each community belief influences their probability of success. Understand that by “class”, I refer to their socio-economic position within their home countries, a factor which lays the basis of their attitudes towards education, work ethic, the role of women in society, business, government, etc., in the United States.
Exactly, the language and cultural barrier is the main source of frustration for both sides…and its the main reason why Koreans group together in business districts. But who do you fault for the existence of that barrier? And why do these white folks act as if immigrant minorites are the ones that must first reach out to them? Why can’t THEY frikken learn Korean if they want so much for Annandale to be one big all inclusive loving family? Haha, please cut out with all the crap I beg of you…
One final question: which is more exclusivist and narrowminded, recognizing the thriving vibrant reality of korean businesses in the area by calling it Koreatown, or deliberately ignoring that reality in such acts as not mentioning them in the official town advertisements?
“A frequent observation is that Koreans marry GIs, come to the States, bring their families over from Korea, then divorce the GI. If the GI catches on to the scheme early on, the divorce comes early, and the wife ends up working in an ?橫Oriental?? or ??Asian?? massage parlor or restaurant, never to return to Korea because she is disowned by her family.” - Mark
Could it be possible that it’s the company that you keep? If all you’re
going to do is meet and marry drinky girls in Itaewon bars, it’s a good chance what you described above is what you’re going to run into later on when you bring the girl over to the States. Bad habits die hard. Before someone accuses me of saying that any Korean girls who marry GI’s are whores, that’s not what I’m saying. What I mean is that it’s the factor of GI’s choosing this particular demographics due to no other opportunity (other than meeting girls in clubs), that ensures that GI’s mostly marry drinky girls.
I had a friend in high school from Iksan, who was talking to another friend about to join the USAF. “If you go to Korea,” she said in a chirpy fobbish accent, “you’re gonna find lots of hoes. Stay away from the hoes!” I suppose that’s good advice.
have to chime in about the hoes for a sec.
no reason to stay away from the hoes necessarily. they certainly ain’t all bad. they might have much to teach, and perhaps have something to learn from you as well. the great sage wonhyo made his mark by hanging with the hoes. it just depends on what kind of relationship you want. wonhyo knew something that made this whole process easier of course, he knew there’s a little bit of ho in all of us. Indeed, soldiers sell their bodies too.
I am tired of both, Korean and American, sterotyping Korean women marrying US. military personnel. I happen to be married to USAF medical officer and, myslf have B.A. from a Korean univesity, quite good one, I might add, and also have master’s from U.S. university. I came to U.S. as a graduate student and married my husband here in U.S. While we have moved around in the military community, I met many Korean ladies who were nurses, teachers, secretaries, etc.in Korea married to U.S. military members. I haven’t seen any single divorce among Korean wife-military husband family last 9 years we have been in service. I have met many happy and hard working families. What if they worked at Itaewon bars. If they can make better lives in U.S., good for them.
I can tell you why I wanted leave Korea. It was the people who think like Mark and Bob.
You guys didn’t think that some poor GI’s wife will be reading your intelligent dialogues about drinky girl from Itaewon. Shame on you!
All this talk of Korean women who hang out with and marry GIs reminds me of the whole EnglishSpectrum affair. Korean women who hang out with, date, or marry non-Koreans–whether they’re GIs or not–are obviously not all whores, alcoholics, women with loose morals, etc. Korean women who hook up with non-Korean men have various socioeconomic backgrounds, personalities, dreams and plans. Isn’t that obvious? A woman who divorces a GI–or any non-Korean–is probably not a whore, etc. That word, “whore,” should simply not be used. It’s so judgmental and mean-spirited (something akin to the way non-GIs often talk about GIs, by the way). Also, let’s not forget the men involved. It takes two to have a successful marriage or relationship. Enough stereotyping already.
Mark certainly did say something astonishingly stupid.
But his stupidity is rooted, in the end, in a recognizable and recognized phenomenon — the “anchor whore” who latches onto a GI (usually no prize himself) as a means to lever her family out of Korean society and an arduous game which they have already lost. (Frankly, I don’t blame them and, in fact, admire them — it’s quite similar to the classic American immigrant experience.) These people do exist and in certain circles (mainly enlisted GI’s of lower intelligence and aspirations) this is the dominant trope. But the Pvt. Snuffy Smith experience is by no means typical of Korea and of cross-cultural marriages.
Just like “real life” things go better with education, class, and similarity of aspirations.
The moral of the story? If you’re stupid and low, have loose morals yourself and make bad choices, and marry someone equally stupid and low as yourself, don’t be surprised if it doesn’t work out all roses.
For the stupid and low divorced immigrant woman to end up giving “special massages” outside Ft. Drum seems to be the analogue of the stupid and low divorced man ending up as a migrant carnival barker or a chain-smoking alcoholic living in a seedy Southern California rooming house — which examples, I am taken to understand, were the occupation of my paternal grandfather and the end-state of my maternal grandfather.
And yet, through the struggles and disappointments of their lives, their children were advanced and things have turned out more than all right for me. God bless them.
And John Goranson is right, that word is mean and I am sorry to have gotten sucked into mimicking the judgmental and mean-spirited views of others by copying that language.
“When you want to fool the world, tell the truth.” –Otto von Bismarck
I apologize for my astonishingly stupid observations, but after all, I am an astonishingly stupid person…or so they tell me….
If you understand, just eavesdrop on some conversations of women working on post at the PX, commissary, etc., or better yet, check out the G.I. wives club on daum.net (sorry, I don’t have the URL at the time) to see the true intentions of this supposed minority.
jung says americans must learn korean to deal with korean immigrants!!!!
hahaha
get the f outta here……
typical asinine comment from an ignoramus
yes come to america and demand we learn your language!!
fuck off
mark isnt totally off base especially years ago when the escape was to marry and leave korea many of those women were whores looking to get out of here
now a days this is less the case as many chics are meeting foreigners
college chics
professional working class women
divorcees also are looking to meet foreigners after failed marriages to korean guys
yo nut boy, read the post a bit more carefully, i don’t expect nor do i think people like you ought to learn korean… but that cuts both ways and if koreans can get along fine without learning english, they don’t friggin have to learn it and kiss your ass like you expect them to. Ya’ll are always so proud of the freedom and liberty this country is suppose to represent, what happened to all that fervor now?
How stupid a guy do you have to be to marry a “working girl” you meet at a club? What is your IQ in the single digits? Whether you are in Itaewon or Vegas, here’s some advice: DON’T HAVE LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIPS WITH “WORKING GIRLS” (nevermind marrying one). If you are dense enough to do something that stupid, you deserve what you get. Again whether you are in Itaewon or Vegas, these women are not going to most emotionally well-adjusted people in the world or women you can trust. Women who work in the industry WILL have ISSUES almost guranteed. Bottom line: Don’t be moron.
You know, the article was kinda interesting. Not to take anything away from the debate on the pros and cons of marrying “working girls,” but…
The article focuses on an issue that has existed in the U.S. since Americans from jolly old England starting feeling threatened by immigrants from Ireland. They’re Catholic after all. Since then, Germans, Italians, Jews from Eastern Europe, Puerto Ricans, Cubans and so on have all formed ethnic enclave in the U.S. and for each enclave there was a “nativist” group that felt threatened by or at least uncomfortable with the immigants.
I think demographically 2nd generation Koreans are fairly high achievers academically (meaning they take professional jobs and integrate into American society), inter-marry at a decently high rate (though I bet not extremely high) and many don’t speak Korean. In 50 years, these enclaves are going to be alot smaller (like little Italy in N.Y.).
Mark,
I don’t know what kinds of problem you have had with Korean women, you need to get over it because you don’t make any sense at all.
By the way, why are you eavesdrpping on other peole’s conversation?
What language do you speak anyway that you can understand the minorities working at the commisaries and BX’s because I know they tend to speak their native language among themselves?
What ARE their intentions? Are they concocting a conspiracy to take over the country by bringing their families? We must know. It could be a national security issue. We must be vigilant!!!!
Mark, No need to be paranoid. What I heard were words like weather, kids, work,etc. Unless it is encoded!!
Marmot - As a product of the American public education system, I??m always amazed that their are people who would actually choose to put their kids in an American school prior to college
As a product of both the American and Korean public education system (both before and after college entrance), I think there are pros and cons on both sides. Too complicated to sort them out here, but if I had to make a hard decision between the two, I would probably go for American.
I believe the compulsary military service is what motivate many parents to get their kids to America. Not for its public education system, but there is no military services.
I’m gonna digress from the GI-whore conversation and go back to sending kids to US education system topic. I know, I know, you guys probably all know about Korea enough that I am being a broken record. Why do Korean parents want to send their kids to American schools? Because it’s easy here. That’s why. It’s plain and simple. Even a dumbass like myself who spent his childhood years perfecting ways to destroy Bowser and Mother Brain(for you old people who don’t understand my allusions, I’m talking about Nintendo 8-bit) instead of studying, I graduated *ahem* from an IVY university. *ahem* *ahem* And yes, isn’t dreams of sending your kids to the Ivies the American dream? (Too bad there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between my salary and said Ivyness) The other kids at my school, they didn’t study. Heck, I knew my Korean American peers whose parents bitch-slapped them silly for watching TV or listening to Rock ‘n Roll music. How many “American” parents get to bitch-slap their kids for not doing their homework? Over here parents would go to jail for that! Korean kids over yonder in motherland have it incredibly bad. Many posters here, might have been a bit too quaint to have lost their virginity during highschool, but alas, a significant chunk of my “american” friends lost that big V-badge of courage during those youthful years. What about the average Korean kid? You know what they talk about? They talk about how much “fun” they had sneaking out of the library to play videogames every blue moon. Your neighbor, Mrs. Kim tells you that she is making her son play the violin, your neighbor Mrs. Lee tells you that she is making her daughter paint, your neighbor Mrs. Park says that she has enrolled her daughter in the “Young-Jae” program–heck, pretty soon YOU too will start to whip your kid into shape! This is why Korean parents flee that country. But it’s not just education, it’s very much Korean culture. You want a raise? You better hangout at the Hostess bar with your boss, kiss his ass, drink 10 shots of scotch, come back home and explain to your wife that there is NO SEX in the champagne room, and no, you won’t get scariosis, so you promise. Why do you see so many Korean kids driving BMWs at US community schools? Because they couldn’t get accepted to school in Korea! They were too dumb! But over here, they roll out a red carpet and welcome them in as long as they come with a fistful of cash! An easy degree if you have the cash. Isn’t America great? You, “American,” reading this better thank your lucky stars that you are an American, because if you were so unlucky as to be born elsewhere, you would have been considered too stupid to go to college.
But I can’t be too hard on American education system, because whereas primary and secondary education is butt easy, college and graduate level education is the best in the world. And yes, I don’t care if you are a Euro-snob and insist that Oxford or some 400 year old university in Germany is just as good as Harvard or MIT, but I say to you Bullshit. Admit it. Your Euro or Japanese school just suck. Koreans don’t flock to those countries for education. This is how you can tell who has the best educational facilities–by watching Korean emigrating patterns. All those exceptional Europeans LEAVE their country for the US!! Who can blame them? If you happen to be European and happened to be smart or hardworking–not only do you have no job in research fields in Europe, they will also tax you so you might as well be a taxi driver.
This is all very obvious to all. Nowadys, if you are a Korean and you did your post-doc in Korea, then people will assume you are a loser. They will assume that you did too much drinking in college and didn’t study, so a valid US university rejected you. And if you have poor english skills, it’s proof of said loserness. Go check out the educational credentials of Korean professors, if you don’t believe me. All those who are “somebody” did some amount of work in the U.S.
Why do Korean people flood into America? Because America has no tradition of confucian exam system. My “american” friends parents say all the time that college is a waste of time and money!!! You will never hear a Korean parent saying that, even if the child is majoring a bullshit major.
And THAT is also a reason why said “whores” flock the GIs. Let’s be frank here. If you were an ambitious person, you would have gone to at least a community school on the generous Federal Perkins Loan and done ROTC and had become at least an officer in the US army. Your typical “whoring” GIs, are not said ambitious individual. I will stop my ranting about the disparity of ambitiousness between the average GI and the average “whore” as my comment is becoming too long.
-essay over-
Marmot, sorry about dewelling on this subject. This post should put a stop to Mark’s ranting about Korean wives in the U.S. military.
I went to the website that Mark mentioned in his last post.
http://www.DAUM.net.
It is in Korean, so for some of you don’t understand Korean, these are the list of things that posted ;
*Free gift for your children
*Lose 10kg with Chinese herbs - Humm….I need to go back and get further info.
*Home mortgage rate
*Home owner’s insurance
*Improve your English - Good language schools
*Million Dollar Baby- Be prepared to cry!!!
I don’t know how to connect the dots to find the”true intentions of the supposed minorities” from almost mundane stuffs like this.
Enlighten me, Mark!
Sorry, Ms. Kunbae, but your URL incorrect. There are chat clubs on Daum, just as there are on Google, Yahoo, MSN, etc.. They are called “cafes.” Not only is there one for GI wives and girlfriends, where women can ask questions about pay rates for various grades, immigration procedures for family members, and the like, but there is also a cafe for KATUSAs, where they make fun of American GIs, brag about their sexual exploits with female American Soldiers in the barracks, or how important and secret their jobs are.
I do not understand why you are making personal attacks on me. Have I touched a nerve? Please re-read Marmot’s original post, and then my comments. I’m not making personal attacks on anyone; I am merely giving some observations to answer Marmot’s question.
I know you are trying to save face, but I must also save face.
Surprise! My wife is Korean. She did not go to a university, but she was no juicy girl, or “whore” as some other commenters like to say. We were married in the US. She is disgusted and humiliated to read these stories online or hear about them from her Korean friends in the States, and she goes absolutely berserk when a fellow Korean woman assumes that she married me with those intentions.
My family in the States has found it difficult to accept her, due largely to our ignorance. After all, I am just stupid white trailer trash–a bastard son of a single mom (my mother and aunt told me not to play with the Asian kids I met in the playground one day because they eat cats and dogs). We’re seeing the world through different lenses, so please do not judge me with your stereotypes. Thank you.
Jung,
The idea behind “emigrating” is that you leave behind your nation, and adopt another. Courtesy, at least, would imply that you do your best to learn the language, customs, and mores of the nation that has allowed you in. After all, you have no other inalienable right to be there. I therefore fail to see that it’s the “fault” of the “white” side, as you put it, for erecting barriers. Language is not a barrier, it is the key to every immigrant’s child’s future. The degree to which every citizen either obtains his nation’s benefits, or contributes to its development and social and political life, will be determined by their ability to understand and communicate in the national language. As for “faults” in the physical sense (as in fault lines),
“Koreatown” bothers the average American no more than “Little Canada”, “Little Lisbon”, “Little Athens”, or “Little Havana”. And all of those enclaves contributed to the social environment of the cities they existed in, some to the point of rendering some otherwise fairly small and drab cities (a la, yech, Lowell, Mass.), more urbane and cosmopolitan than they otherwise would have been.
You need to reappraise that chip, bro. It might be holding you back from some very interesting discoveries.
Ms. Kumbaeto … Enjoyed your comments. I noted many years ago that besides the bar and juicy girls, there were many Korean and Japanese girls marrying American GIs who were often their socio-economic inferiors. Some of these marriages intrigued me in that otherwise male, macho, he-men could reorder their lives to allow the wife some chance of using her own education and training.
ANd VW. Loved the “bitch-slap” comments. I had a Afro-Korean captain working for me once who attributed his whole higher education (an M.A.) to the fact that his mother would charge out of the house and bitchslap him every time he tried to play basketball with the neighborhood kids, screaming at him: “You not Black, You Korean! Get in that house and study!”
Lirelou,
Lemme ask you a simple question: Do these people have the right and freedom to live in the U.S. without being able to speak english as long as they are tax paying law abiding residents? Yes or No? Yeah, I thought so.
All the rest of it, including your talk about courtesy, are ornaments for discussion when people have the leisure and desire to talk about it.
By the way, I never blamed white folks for the cultural and language barrier. The whole point of it was that you can’t blame anybody for it.
Mark wrote,
“A frequent observation is that Koreans marry GIs, come to the States, bring their families over from Korea, then divorce the GI. If the GI catches on to the scheme early on, the divorce comes early, and the wife ends up working in an ?橫Oriental?? or ??Asian?? massage parlor or restaurant, never to return to Korea because she is disowned by her family”.
Again Mark wrote;
“If you understand, just eavesdrop on some conversations of women working on post at the PX, commissary, etc., or better yet, check out the G.I. wives club on daum.net (sorry, I don??t have the URL at the time) to see the true intentions of this supposed minority”.
Mark, does your wife know YOU wrote this?
You haven’t answer my question from previous posting.
My question is simple: What are the intentions of this supposed minority?
I might have been sarcastic but I was not attacking you personally. I want you to be resposible for what you wrote.
I think Mark is making the same mistake that Korea’s “outraged netizens” make — imputing the boorish comments and behavior of a minority to the majority. The Daum.net “Cafes” for KATUSAs, GI wives and Korean manipulators of the immigration laws do exist, just as English Spectrum exists and gives raw advice on where and how to score “HOT Korean Pussy!!!!” English Spectrum doesn’t speak for me (alas), and I would venture that the Daum.net forums aren’t representative of all Korean wives.
Ms. Kunbae,
1. Yes, she knows. In fact, most of my ideas were borrowed from her.
2. Their intentions are to improve their current socio-economic status and that of their families at all costs. Not necessarily a bad intention, albeit sometimes a very cruel intention.
Mr. Carr,
I would hold that you represent the minority of expatriates in Korea, just as Ms. Kunbae represents the minority of Korean wives of servicemembers.
Both of you should remember that 49% is still a “minority,” and I would hope that I am on the side with you, Mr. Carr and that my wife is on the side with you, Ms. Kunbae.
Thank you.
I would hope that I am on the side with you, Mr. Carr and that my wife is on the side with you, Ms. Kunbae.
But, my “side” is the one that says you’re a fool.
Mr. Carr, I myself have said that I am a fool on numerous occasions. Character assassination is futile; I commit character suicide daily.
No more posts from me on this topic…you are all correct, and I am absolutely wrong, as usual. You can have your Dokdo.
“All things are subject to interpretation…whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.” –Friedrich Nietzsche
I have to disagree with Mark on his observation about Korean wives in U.S.military and their intention to marry U.S. service men. His observation is biased and inaccurate. I am not saying there has not been any case that he describes - Korean wemen using U.S. servicemen to improve thier socio-ecomonic status. I am sure there has been. Since most of the Korean wives in U.S. military have many different socio-economical and educational background, and legitimate intention, like any wives, Mark’s sterotyping of Korean wives as of those few is especially hurtful and mean.
Would it be a right statement if I say American men with Korean wives are pigs because I met a Korean woman kicked out of her own house because her American husband wanted to bring 18 year old pregnant girlfriend home. How about American men are very controlling because one of the Korean ladies in my English class can’t come anymore because her husband doesn’t want her to learn English, that way he will have better control over her. American men with Koeran wives are all sex addicts because I saw an American man abandoning his wife of 45 year for a younger woman. I know these are not accurate statements because I draw a conclusion based on small number of observations.
Another assumption of Mark’s sterotype was that Aemrican military men are not so bright. I noticed that way of thinking in other posting as well, but it is bunch of bull. I have noticed that there is a very large gap between civilian and military. That gap getting ever deeper since most of the new enlistee are from military families. Civilian’s lack of understanding about militay is mind boggling.
Young men are women get into military for many different reasons. Some for college money, some for sheer duty, and other reasons. I say, these are noble reasons. If they can be trained to become a submarine crews, airplane machanics, or computer technicians in a year or so period, they can’t be too dumb. If people think enlistee do not have ambitions, need to think again. My physian was enlisted before, my neighbor is a jag officer and he also was enlisted. One of my husband’s tech sergeant was recruited by Microsoft for his computer programming skill with 6 digit salary. List goes on.
This thread sidetracked a little bit but it was a worthy subject, I must say.
Mrs. Kunbae,
I hope you don’t get the wrong idea when I defend Mark, because I personally feel that you have every right and indeed, responsibility to say, “American men with Korean wives are pigs because I met a Korean woman…” Well, if you placed a qualifier like “some”. Mark of course, used the qualifier “frequently” therefore, he might have made the error of over-estimating. But let’s face fact. Mark’s friends are probably mostly army guys not Korean women. So he made an observation about the world, lacking, perhaps, peripheral vision. I think that it is very true that there are indeed really questionable GI’s who do crummy things to Korean women, which should be discussed. I think though, the argument we have to deal is with numbers. I for one, think, that more GIs should be more up front about some of these rather unscrupulous meatheads that have found themselves to be member of the armed services. And many are. But that doesn’t change the fact that, well, sometimes the abuser, isn’t always the GI. Sometimes, some Korean women do marry GIs for the wrong reasons–and sometimes downright nefarious ones. I think that Mark is an “older” person, since he doesn’t like to mince words. But I really didn’t see from his postings that he has low opinion of all Korean women who married U.S. GIs. Hey, maybe he is truly a racist chauvinist pig, but I really didn’t see it in his writing.
Also, I think it was me, not Mark who made those disparaging remarks about the intelliengence level of GIs. I didn’t mean to be too disrepectful of the armed services when I said that a lot of GIs lacked ambition, I was just trying to squeeze out some nyuk nyuks. Obviously, ALL the ROTC/officers have an incredible amount of ambition. (Heck, I saw ROTC guys jogging at 5 am in the morning at my university AND doing engineering–my school did not hand out As–and these guys were better students!) But I’m not too sure if I can really say the same is true for.. uh.. well… I will stop myself before I get a visitation from your Green Beret husband. nyuk nyuk~~
Let me give you an example of what I mean. A friend of mine, Frank, who was a hardcore Marine, age 80-ish, served in the war in the Pacific–enlisted at the tender age of 16, lied so that he could fight. He enlisted on the day of the Pearl Harbor bombing, he was all gung-ho, and wanted to “sock it to the japs.” Is he racist? No. He actually has a strange sino-fetish. He said to me, “oh, I joined the Marines, because I was young and stupid. if you are too old, then they kick you out, because you are too smart to do stupid things like go to wars.” Now, I don’t mean to be disrespectful of courageous men/women who are defending my yellow ass. Despite what Frank says, he is obviously a proud Semper Fi man, because you see all these Marines paraphernalia all over his house. His eyes get all dewey and youthful when I ask him about his military days. Of course, this story really doesn’t reflect present reality when most enlisted people are significantly older and so many hold regular jobs and only gets sent to places like Baghdad when the collective American IQ is so low as to vote for… well, I digress. But you must admit that there was time in America when the military was the only career opportunity for some people-heck even now. Now, some are ambitious officer types. And some… some just really like that 90 dollar check a week. Or scrubbing the decks of USS Enterprise. Or maybe they REALLY like their drill sargeant. I donno. I shouldn’t ask and I guess they won’t tell me. Well, actually my marine friend was pretty gung ho stars “n” stripes patriot. But my smarter gung ho marine friend was a ROTC. and you must admit… most of the military aren’t officers. And THAT is the reason why I am a cowardly civvy. I am too smart to eat stools in bootcamp and too stupid to be an officer. For bootcamp horror stories, please refer to the “stool” eating incident on Marmot archive.
virtual wonderer,
I understand there have been some Korean women marry American service members for wrong reasons. I understand there are sterotypes against Korean wives in U.S. military. I am not naive. But I have to aruge that the strotypes are grossly biased and inaccurate because of couple of reasons; 1. Korean women didn’t speak out against it due to lack of English skills 2. rather isolated life in military facilities that civilians do not have much understanding. To illustrate; I know many American women want to marry docotors and lawyers to improve their socio-economical status. So is it accurate to say “I obserbed that doctors’ and lawyes’ wives are “gold diggers.” It is a sterotype that is negative and hurtful. And far from the truth.
I did not think Mark was a male chauvnist pig or racist. I do not know him so i can’t make a judgement on him. But I can say though, he was biased that his thought process was not sound. He is not alone in that regards. There are many people who will rather hold a streotypes against someone than exercise dilligence to really know who they are. Once I read an article written by a man who had a Korean wife, who also thought he knew all about Korea and Korean because he had a Korean wife. His article was about how Korean people were so out of control on effort to become like the westerners. He used an example of Korans’ desire to own cars although they couldn’t afford it. To prove that Korean couldn’t aford the cars he quoted “my wife saw it on Korean TV that high % of people drive without car insurance”. He didn’t have the dilligence to check the stats on how many % of drivers do not have insurace, instead he quoted his wife who happen to saw it on TV. Pretty dumb. It gets dumber, when it was considered newspaper worthy.
Regaring your opinion on U.S. military, if you think that you are not cut out for it, just leave it at that. No reason for disrespect. There are many people who do it gladly. If scrubbling the decks of USS Enterprise is only skill you have in the military, probably scrubbling the toilets in McDonalds is only choice you have outside.
Be dilligent.
On the issue of the the U.S. educational system as a motivating factor for Korean emigration—in comparision (even with all its attendant problems) the U.S. system–particularly post-secondary education—seems infinately more egalitarian than the Korean educational model.
“And some?? some just really like that 90 dollar check a week.”
You really should do a little research before making your remarks.
Let’s take a common rank - an E6 with 10 years service makes 2687.10
a month base pay (http://usmilitary.about.com/od.....asepay.htm). Now, if he/she is married (or living off base), add in separate rations (food allowance) at $267.18 per month (http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/pay/bas/). If married, living off base and stationed at Eglin AFB, Fort Walton Beach, Florida (just as an example), add in another $1071 per month for rent (https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/cgi-bin/bah/bahsrch.pl).
Now we’re up to $4025.28 per month, which is $48,303.36 per year.
We haven’t even added in the benefits of free medical care, college tuition, reenlistment bonuses, hazardous duty pay, cost of living allowance (COLA), family separation pay and on and on - some of the latter depend on duty location.
$48K per year - not too shabby, eh? Still not worth getting your ass shot at so that people like you can make smartass remarks while sitting behind the safety of your monitor, but it’s a long way from your $90 per week.
I am currently serving the US army as an aviation mechanic in Korea. You should think before you disrespect thousands of servicemen giving up many of their own rights to defend yours.
Also, the girls working in the clubs are mostly Filipinas. Their jobs don’t make them stupid or somehow bad. My own relations haven’t been able to secure the best of jobs either in countries outside the US.