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	<title>Comments on: Noooooooorbert&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 02:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Sugar Shin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8021</link>
		<dc:creator>Sugar Shin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8021</guid>
		<description>Marmot, I'm sorry for the "jizz on your chin"...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marmot, I&#8217;m sorry for the &#8220;jizz on your chin&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: virtual wonderer</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8020</link>
		<dc:creator>virtual wonderer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:02:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8020</guid>
		<description>Again, I think a vicious ad hominem attack on Dr. Vollertsen by association is horribly unfair.  Of course, you can say that he cast the first stone by association claim on No Moo Hyun and Kim Jong Il.  But more importantly, the truth of the matter is, is that left leaning NGOs have utterly failed in addressing NK issues.  The only people I see who have given cash to feed NK refugees have been predominantly evangelical christians.  Evangelical Christians, that is, of radically right political persuation.  I cannot imagine Dr.Vollertsen would be of this stock.  How can anyone blame Dr.Vollertsen for "siding" with the loonies when no left leaning activist is joining his cause?  In South Korea, even groups like Doctors without Borders or Amnesty International are considered to be a condescending white men's tool to humiliate Koreans and to perpetuate the right-wing lies.  Do you really think that Hanchongryun kids or labor unions will start sending representatives to Yanbian to make sure NK kids have enough blankets?

So that noone accuse me of being a right-winger, I voted all Democrats this year in the US elections.  When Kim Dae Jung started his Sunshine Policy, I thought that perhaps Korea had a future--a gesture of good will might go a long way.  Now we are in No Moo Hyun administration and we have to face the fact that the Sunshine Policy was an abject failure.  Not only was it an abject failure, that Kim Dae Jung made a collasal lie on the scale of president Bush's lie about weapons of mass destructions--on the scale of half a billion dollars.  What did these two politicians have in common?  They both made big lies in order to promote their cause.  No Moo Hyun is an inheritor of Kim Dae Jung's lie.  Is he better than anyone in the GNP?  Yes.  I too would have voted for No Moo Hyun-what are the options?  That doesn't change the fact that he is not only a liar but utterly incompetent.  And yet, his supporters still claim that Sunshine policy-a policy of perpetual and unconditional appeasement, is the way for Korea's unification.  Dr. Vollertsen challenges this proposition.  

Is what Dr. Vollertsen doing truly self-defeating?  Let us say there was no Vollertsen.  Would that really make anything better in South Korea?  No.  What Korea needs MORE of, is MORE left leaning progressive humanitarians working hand in hand with right leaning christian evangelicals in order to discredit the xenophobic, jingoistic, marxist South Korean student activists.

The issue here isn't simply about North Korean kids, but also about the very nature of South Korean society.  Will South Korea remain a bigoted self-centered frenzied mass, or will it emerge out of the well?  

Maybe one Vollertsen is bad for Korea.  But if there was 40 million Vollertsens in South Korea, I wonder if that would be also true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, I think a vicious ad hominem attack on Dr. Vollertsen by association is horribly unfair.  Of course, you can say that he cast the first stone by association claim on No Moo Hyun and Kim Jong Il.  But more importantly, the truth of the matter is, is that left leaning NGOs have utterly failed in addressing NK issues.  The only people I see who have given cash to feed NK refugees have been predominantly evangelical christians.  Evangelical Christians, that is, of radically right political persuation.  I cannot imagine Dr.Vollertsen would be of this stock.  How can anyone blame Dr.Vollertsen for &#8220;siding&#8221; with the loonies when no left leaning activist is joining his cause?  In South Korea, even groups like Doctors without Borders or Amnesty International are considered to be a condescending white men&#8217;s tool to humiliate Koreans and to perpetuate the right-wing lies.  Do you really think that Hanchongryun kids or labor unions will start sending representatives to Yanbian to make sure NK kids have enough blankets?</p>
<p>So that noone accuse me of being a right-winger, I voted all Democrats this year in the US elections.  When Kim Dae Jung started his Sunshine Policy, I thought that perhaps Korea had a future&#8211;a gesture of good will might go a long way.  Now we are in No Moo Hyun administration and we have to face the fact that the Sunshine Policy was an abject failure.  Not only was it an abject failure, that Kim Dae Jung made a collasal lie on the scale of president Bush&#8217;s lie about weapons of mass destructions&#8211;on the scale of half a billion dollars.  What did these two politicians have in common?  They both made big lies in order to promote their cause.  No Moo Hyun is an inheritor of Kim Dae Jung&#8217;s lie.  Is he better than anyone in the GNP?  Yes.  I too would have voted for No Moo Hyun-what are the options?  That doesn&#8217;t change the fact that he is not only a liar but utterly incompetent.  And yet, his supporters still claim that Sunshine policy-a policy of perpetual and unconditional appeasement, is the way for Korea&#8217;s unification.  Dr. Vollertsen challenges this proposition.  </p>
<p>Is what Dr. Vollertsen doing truly self-defeating?  Let us say there was no Vollertsen.  Would that really make anything better in South Korea?  No.  What Korea needs MORE of, is MORE left leaning progressive humanitarians working hand in hand with right leaning christian evangelicals in order to discredit the xenophobic, jingoistic, marxist South Korean student activists.</p>
<p>The issue here isn&#8217;t simply about North Korean kids, but also about the very nature of South Korean society.  Will South Korea remain a bigoted self-centered frenzied mass, or will it emerge out of the well?  </p>
<p>Maybe one Vollertsen is bad for Korea.  But if there was 40 million Vollertsens in South Korea, I wonder if that would be also true.</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8019</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8019</guid>
		<description>Uh, that's for the imagery there...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, that&#8217;s for the imagery there&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kim Jong Il</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8018</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Jong Il</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 09:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8018</guid>
		<description>Actually Sugar Sham is a toady of mine. I find supporting nutty "lefties" a terrible thing unless its korean lefties like Nom Hyun. Supporting him is ok. Also Mr Marmot, i notice a little of Sugars Shams jizz on your chin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Sugar Sham is a toady of mine. I find supporting nutty &#8220;lefties&#8221; a terrible thing unless its korean lefties like Nom Hyun. Supporting him is ok. Also Mr Marmot, i notice a little of Sugars Shams jizz on your chin.</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8017</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8017</guid>
		<description>I'd hardly characterize Sugar Shin as a Kim Jong-il toady, and I think our problems with Norbert are threefold:

a) some question his motives.  I don't personally, but some have have their doubts, nonetheless;

b) Norbert may indeed be bringing attention to NK human rights abuses, but he's doing so in a way that are counterproductive and in some ways discredit what he has to say, i.e., even if Koreans are ignorant of the abuses that take place in North Korea, they aren't so ignorant of the ones that took place under the 5th Republic, and by associating himself with some of the unsavory members of the far right, he's doing his cause a great diservice;

c) his comments about S. Korea's politics are simply silly, and by making them, it makes people wonder if his comments about N. Korea aren't just as silly.  I don't think they are, but surely, you can see how someone who goes out and calls Roh Moo-hyun a puppet of Kim Jong-il -- and few people among even those who dislike both Roh and his North Korea policies would venture such a claim -- and appears at pro-impeachment rallies might be viewed with a great deal of skepticism by a great many citizens, even if what he says about North Korea is 100% correct.  Again, I direct you to Dr. Lankov's comment (#4) -- regardless of whether Norbert speaks the truth about North Korea, his behavior simply turns a great many people off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d hardly characterize Sugar Shin as a Kim Jong-il toady, and I think our problems with Norbert are threefold:</p>
<p>a) some question his motives.  I don&#8217;t personally, but some have have their doubts, nonetheless;</p>
<p>b) Norbert may indeed be bringing attention to NK human rights abuses, but he&#8217;s doing so in a way that are counterproductive and in some ways discredit what he has to say, i.e., even if Koreans are ignorant of the abuses that take place in North Korea, they aren&#8217;t so ignorant of the ones that took place under the 5th Republic, and by associating himself with some of the unsavory members of the far right, he&#8217;s doing his cause a great diservice;</p>
<p>c) his comments about S. Korea&#8217;s politics are simply silly, and by making them, it makes people wonder if his comments about N. Korea aren&#8217;t just as silly.  I don&#8217;t think they are, but surely, you can see how someone who goes out and calls Roh Moo-hyun a puppet of Kim Jong-il &#8212; and few people among even those who dislike both Roh and his North Korea policies would venture such a claim &#8212; and appears at pro-impeachment rallies might be viewed with a great deal of skepticism by a great many citizens, even if what he says about North Korea is 100% correct.  Again, I direct you to Dr. Lankov&#8217;s comment (#4) &#8212; regardless of whether Norbert speaks the truth about North Korea, his behavior simply turns a great many people off.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8016</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2004 04:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8016</guid>
		<description>Sugar Shill, You're a fine one to talk about teaming up with unsavory characters.  You have got to be the most shameless, obsequieous Kim Jong-Il toady on the entire net.  Your real problem with Norbert is that he's bringing up facts that distract more objective readers from your pathological hatred of America.  The fact that Daddy never loved you isn't an analytical framework for the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sugar Shill, You&#8217;re a fine one to talk about teaming up with unsavory characters.  You have got to be the most shameless, obsequieous Kim Jong-Il toady on the entire net.  Your real problem with Norbert is that he&#8217;s bringing up facts that distract more objective readers from your pathological hatred of America.  The fact that Daddy never loved you isn&#8217;t an analytical framework for the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Sugar Shin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8015</link>
		<dc:creator>Sugar Shin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2004 23:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8015</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Norbert teams up with the fervently anti-communist, old-guard "human rights activists" - supporters of previous military dictatorships. Good choice, German fellow!

As I commented before at previous posts of Mr. Marmot: Norbert's image neurosis seems to be a more important motivation that powers his refractory activities, than anything else.

As a typical radical ex-leftie he's driven by an unrealistic sense of idealism, vision and mission, not giving a dime for feasibility and practicability of overthrowing Kim Jong-Il and his ilk with a surreal tool of PR-demonstrations in Seoul... an habitual attitude that is also often found in the far right camp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Norbert teams up with the fervently anti-communist, old-guard &#8220;human rights activists&#8221; - supporters of previous military dictatorships. Good choice, German fellow!</p>
<p>As I commented before at previous posts of Mr. Marmot: Norbert&#8217;s image neurosis seems to be a more important motivation that powers his refractory activities, than anything else.</p>
<p>As a typical radical ex-leftie he&#8217;s driven by an unrealistic sense of idealism, vision and mission, not giving a dime for feasibility and practicability of overthrowing Kim Jong-Il and his ilk with a surreal tool of PR-demonstrations in Seoul&#8230; an habitual attitude that is also often found in the far right camp.</p>
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		<title>By: www.freekorea.blogspot.com</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8014</link>
		<dc:creator>www.freekorea.blogspot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8014</guid>
		<description>The fact that Norbert is often over the top is greatly outweighed by the fact that he's the only person bringing attention to this issue--attention that most media and human rights organizations aren't bringing to it.  Given the fact that only Darfur rivals the scale of the humanitarian tragedy in North Korea today, who's really more out of whack here?  I concede that Norbert may have let the madness of North Korea's reality infect him.  Are our heads so cool as to chill our hearts, too?

Those who are doing something to improve the lives of North Koreans have a right to criticize some of Norbert's goofier statements.  I have on occasion done so privately.  I'd be the first to agree that no person should call for the violent overthrow of an elected government.  On the other hand, I respectfully submit that none of the Marmot's quotes quite persuades me that Norbert is calling for that.  Perhaps I'm missing something here; it seems equally plausible that he's calling for Roh to be brought down by protest marches and votes, albeit with some language that fits South Korea's heated rhetorical sensibilties better than our own.  

Or maybe not.  Having just lived through an American election, I had to put up with John Kerry calling for "regime change" in the United States, Al Gore calling the entire Pentagon a bunch of war criminals, Howard Dean and Michael Moore suggesting that Bush and the Saudis cooked up 9/11, and plenty of calls to "export" and "re-defeat" Bush.  Kerry's opponents have done everything but call him a traitor, saying he's "unfit for command."  Those statements were criticized for hurting our discourse--as they should have been--but none were interpreted as calls to violence.  And of course, the Canadians aren't testing Sarin on political prisoners.

Sadly, many of Norbert's critics, such as the Pressian gang, would rather not discuss Kim Jong-Il's atrocities at all.  They have no alternative to help the North Koreans except to sew Samsung badges onto their prison garb and put them to work soldering microchips for $58 a month.  

It's unfortunate that it takes the kind of fulmination Norbert is shouting to overcome South Korea's conspiracy of silence, but you can't argue that he's not getting results.  This week, he and his cohorts are holding a "Holocaust Exhibition" at the National Assembly.  It obviously took some political pull and savvy somewhere to make that happen.  The media will come for Norbert, but when they get there, they will meet calmer voices like Tim Peters of Helping Hands Korea, as well as North Korean defectors like Kang Chol-Hwan of the Chosun Ilbo.  If those voices are more persuasive than Norbert's, it will only be thanks to Norbert and his intemperate words that their words were heard in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that Norbert is often over the top is greatly outweighed by the fact that he&#8217;s the only person bringing attention to this issue&#8211;attention that most media and human rights organizations aren&#8217;t bringing to it.  Given the fact that only Darfur rivals the scale of the humanitarian tragedy in North Korea today, who&#8217;s really more out of whack here?  I concede that Norbert may have let the madness of North Korea&#8217;s reality infect him.  Are our heads so cool as to chill our hearts, too?</p>
<p>Those who are doing something to improve the lives of North Koreans have a right to criticize some of Norbert&#8217;s goofier statements.  I have on occasion done so privately.  I&#8217;d be the first to agree that no person should call for the violent overthrow of an elected government.  On the other hand, I respectfully submit that none of the Marmot&#8217;s quotes quite persuades me that Norbert is calling for that.  Perhaps I&#8217;m missing something here; it seems equally plausible that he&#8217;s calling for Roh to be brought down by protest marches and votes, albeit with some language that fits South Korea&#8217;s heated rhetorical sensibilties better than our own.  </p>
<p>Or maybe not.  Having just lived through an American election, I had to put up with John Kerry calling for &#8220;regime change&#8221; in the United States, Al Gore calling the entire Pentagon a bunch of war criminals, Howard Dean and Michael Moore suggesting that Bush and the Saudis cooked up 9/11, and plenty of calls to &#8220;export&#8221; and &#8220;re-defeat&#8221; Bush.  Kerry&#8217;s opponents have done everything but call him a traitor, saying he&#8217;s &#8220;unfit for command.&#8221;  Those statements were criticized for hurting our discourse&#8211;as they should have been&#8211;but none were interpreted as calls to violence.  And of course, the Canadians aren&#8217;t testing Sarin on political prisoners.</p>
<p>Sadly, many of Norbert&#8217;s critics, such as the Pressian gang, would rather not discuss Kim Jong-Il&#8217;s atrocities at all.  They have no alternative to help the North Koreans except to sew Samsung badges onto their prison garb and put them to work soldering microchips for $58 a month.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s unfortunate that it takes the kind of fulmination Norbert is shouting to overcome South Korea&#8217;s conspiracy of silence, but you can&#8217;t argue that he&#8217;s not getting results.  This week, he and his cohorts are holding a &#8220;Holocaust Exhibition&#8221; at the National Assembly.  It obviously took some political pull and savvy somewhere to make that happen.  The media will come for Norbert, but when they get there, they will meet calmer voices like Tim Peters of Helping Hands Korea, as well as North Korean defectors like Kang Chol-Hwan of the Chosun Ilbo.  If those voices are more persuasive than Norbert&#8217;s, it will only be thanks to Norbert and his intemperate words that their words were heard in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: virtual wonderer</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8013</link>
		<dc:creator>virtual wonderer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8013</guid>
		<description>I think you guys are being horribly unfair to the good doctor.  First of all, 99.9% of humanity, doesn't care about North Korean refugees.  In fact, that number is probably fairly accurate of the South Korean sentiments.  

It's like watching conservative weirdos on John Stewart's Daily Show---why do they go on at all??  Because they figure negative public appearances are better than NONE at all.  

I mean, isn't it better for Dr.Vollertsen(sp??) to go into hysteria, foaming at the mouth, tantarum, than a questionable NGOs encouraging NK refugees to scale walls to an American school in Shanghai, only to be deported to NK to meet their end in a grim death camp?  Just to capture public sentiment?

We talk about Vollertsen today, because he did something crazy.  But most South Koreans live their daily lives not thinking about those people living above the 38th parallel on a daily basis.  Vollertsen FORCES those people to think about these issues.

And, the truth of the matter is, No Moo Hyun, sees himself as a human rights champion, defending the bluecollar and the meek.  Guilt-tripping No Moo Hyun is better than nothing.

I think Dr. Vollertsen is an admirable, a very ethical man.  As a German, I am SURE that he looks at North Korean situation by the lens of the effect of nazism in Germany.  We know there are death camps in North Korea---we have no idea how many people are dead and to what degree.  But just because we don't know and we aren't sure, most of us lead our lives not thinking about this issue at all.  Vollertsen on the otherhand, has dedicated his LIFE to this cause.  Does he like the limelight?  Sure.  Maybe he has a Martyr-complex.  But the bottomline is that he spent his time healing the sick, and when he realized that he wasn't being allowed to heal the sick, he became political.  

Maybe Vollertsen is overly ambitious about what he wants to see in North Korea.  But I cannot question his methodology.  In fact, he is one of the very few who are doing anything about making a tangible difference on NK refugees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you guys are being horribly unfair to the good doctor.  First of all, 99.9% of humanity, doesn&#8217;t care about North Korean refugees.  In fact, that number is probably fairly accurate of the South Korean sentiments.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like watching conservative weirdos on John Stewart&#8217;s Daily Show&#8212;why do they go on at all??  Because they figure negative public appearances are better than NONE at all.  </p>
<p>I mean, isn&#8217;t it better for Dr.Vollertsen(sp??) to go into hysteria, foaming at the mouth, tantarum, than a questionable NGOs encouraging NK refugees to scale walls to an American school in Shanghai, only to be deported to NK to meet their end in a grim death camp?  Just to capture public sentiment?</p>
<p>We talk about Vollertsen today, because he did something crazy.  But most South Koreans live their daily lives not thinking about those people living above the 38th parallel on a daily basis.  Vollertsen FORCES those people to think about these issues.</p>
<p>And, the truth of the matter is, No Moo Hyun, sees himself as a human rights champion, defending the bluecollar and the meek.  Guilt-tripping No Moo Hyun is better than nothing.</p>
<p>I think Dr. Vollertsen is an admirable, a very ethical man.  As a German, I am SURE that he looks at North Korean situation by the lens of the effect of nazism in Germany.  We know there are death camps in North Korea&#8212;we have no idea how many people are dead and to what degree.  But just because we don&#8217;t know and we aren&#8217;t sure, most of us lead our lives not thinking about this issue at all.  Vollertsen on the otherhand, has dedicated his LIFE to this cause.  Does he like the limelight?  Sure.  Maybe he has a Martyr-complex.  But the bottomline is that he spent his time healing the sick, and when he realized that he wasn&#8217;t being allowed to heal the sick, he became political.  </p>
<p>Maybe Vollertsen is overly ambitious about what he wants to see in North Korea.  But I cannot question his methodology.  In fact, he is one of the very few who are doing anything about making a tangible difference on NK refugees.</p>
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		<title>By: Sugar Shin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/11/06/noooooooorbert/#comment-8012</link>
		<dc:creator>Sugar Shin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2004 00:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1230#comment-8012</guid>
		<description>Oh, Norbert again... Was f?¼r ein durchgedrehter Freak!

He was a leftie in Germany, but predominantly he's a pain in the ass, wherever he puts up his tents. A professional troublemaker at home and abroad.

?€œWe must rid our society of the ?€?Axis of Evil?€™ of Kim Jong-il and Roh Moo-hyun. Go out and march on Cheong Wa Dae. You are the only people who can save the Republic of Korea.?€?

Wow, this is high comedy. I'm clueless, how he was able to become a medical doctor with such a plain intellect...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Norbert again&#8230; Was f?¼r ein durchgedrehter Freak!</p>
<p>He was a leftie in Germany, but predominantly he&#8217;s a pain in the ass, wherever he puts up his tents. A professional troublemaker at home and abroad.</p>
<p>?€œWe must rid our society of the ?€?Axis of Evil?€™ of Kim Jong-il and Roh Moo-hyun. Go out and march on Cheong Wa Dae. You are the only people who can save the Republic of Korea.?€?</p>
<p>Wow, this is high comedy. I&#8217;m clueless, how he was able to become a medical doctor with such a plain intellect&#8230;</p>
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