A sign marks the border between N. Korea and China at the Tumen River border post in Tumen, China/OhMyNews
Korea has for all intents and purposes placed on territorial claim on China. This is either incredibly bold or incredibly insane — I haven’t decided which yet, but I’m heavily favoring the latter. Anyway, from the Chosun Ilbo:
It has been revealed that the Korean government is taking the position that the 1909 Gando Convention, signed between China and Japan, is null and void.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade revealed this government position in parliamentary inspection materials distributed to lawmakers on Tuesday, sparking concerns of diplomatic friction with China. This is the first time the government has revealed its official position on the matter.
The Gando Convention was a treaty in which Japan handed over the Gando region, which was virtually Korean territory, to China in return for certain privileges in Manchuria, including railway concessions. If the Gando Convention were considered null and void, the government would be adopting a position that the region north of Mt. Baekdu and Tumen River was Korean territory.
What was interesting about this all — aside from the fact that the Republic of Korea has apparently adopted as its official position that a fairly sizable chunk of Manchurian territory belong to Korea — is the way the story was broke:
On page 186 of volume 7 of the Foreign Ministry’s “National Assembly Inspection Materials,” a copy of which was obtained by the Chosun Ilbo, the contents of the 1909 Gando Convention were explained, after which it said the agreement was null and void. In this section, it said, “Our government takes the position that the 1909 Gando Convention, signed by Japan without concern for Korea’s position, is null and void, to the extent that the Eulsa Treaty, which deprived Korea of its diplomatic rights in 1905, is a null-and-void treaty obtained through duress.”
The Foreign Ministry distributed the materials during parliamentary inspections on Oct. 5. Out of concern that the materials might cause diplomatic friction with China, however, the ministry decided to collect all the material packets on the same day, sending ministry staff to the National Assembly with new material packets in which the section on the Gando Convention had been deleted.
About this, a government official said, “It is our firm position that the Gando Convention is null and void, but taking into account how China has been reacting sensitively to the Gando Convention issue, even in relation to the Koguryo history issue, we’ve decided not to reveal that position to the outside.”
Well, guess what. It’s been revealed to the outside, courtesy the Chosun Ilbo. If you didn’t want it to get out, you should never have put it in your parliamentary material packet in the first place. For what it’s worth, the Chosun has pictures of the relevant section of the material, just in case you didn’t take their word for it. And even if China is still blocking the Chinese-language edition of the Chosun, you could rest assured that Beijing will hear about this. Especially if you combine it with this little snippet from OhMyNews, which says that many scholars in Korea consider much of Liaoning Province south of Shenyang as “West Gando,” so one could interpret the government’s official position as meaning that the whole of what is now southern Manchuria is, in fact, Korean territory. The 18th century French map at the top of OhMy’s piece gives you a pretty good idea of what we’re talking about.
OhMyNews went on to say that attention was focusing on how the Chinese might respond. When Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei came to Korea in August, he reportedly tried to get the Koreans to promise — in writing — that they would not mention the Gando issue, even after unification. Wu was promptly told to fuck off, albeit politely. Of course, the official position is that the Gando issue was never discussed (which you could read about in one of my previous posts on the Gando matter), but the talk persists. Anyway, to get a little taste of what we might be in for, OhMyNews recounted a meeting with a Chinese scholar that took place in September. He said:
When talk of voiding the Gando Convention was raised in the [Korean] National Assembly in the mid-1990s, inside the Chinese government, it was like a beehive shaken up. In particular, the military greatly protested, asking, “Is Korea talking of war?”
I don’t know what to say, other than this is a very dangerous game the government’s playing, especially at a time when Seoul’s relations with Pyongyang, Washington and Tokyo are not the best they’ve ever been. Now is probably not the time to poke Beijing in the eye, especially if one holds any hope at all that the Chinese might be helpful in the re-unification process should North Korea appear on the verge of collapse. And if one day, Korean tourists in Shenyang should find Pyongyang included on Liaoning Provincial maps, they’ll understand why.
54 Comments
Make no mistake, Korean irrdentists aren’t merely content with Gando, they want all of what was Manchuria including Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang. Maybe Shandong province to boot.
It would amuse me to see the PRC play tit for tat by claiming all of the land north of the Han river. Afterall, parts of present day North Korea was at one time or another part of the Li commanderie under the Han dynasty.
However, my amusement isn’t neccessarily sound diplomatic reasoning and I don’t think China should inflame the situation anymore than it already is. Though come to think of it, the South Koreans practically started the entire affair singlehandedly in the early 90’s. The best bet for the CCP is to simply flat out ignore every statement over Gando that the South makes. South Korea does not have enough influence to make a genuine issue out of it, nor would they have a chance in hell of getting Washington to go along with their mad plan. It’s the best thing China can do because South Korea’s demands won’t gain any international traction.
I don’t see what logical reason South Korea has chosen to make an issue out of this. There is almost no way in hell they will get Gando or any part of what once was Manchuria with their present tactics. The most likely outcome is a detioration in Sino-Korean relations with no benefit to be gained. Even worse, if China decides to get back at the South, the end of North Korea may not see the creation of a unified Korean state, but rather a new Bei ChaoXian special autonomous region of the People’s republic of China.
A fascinating post on a totally unknown area of diplomatic history (I mean unknown to me of course).
Puts a possible whole new light on the November 1950 Chinese intervention in the Korean War, as the American forces approached the Yalu. I never knew that this border had been an issue (should have surmised it of course from my very general knowledge of Chinese history and the ground campaigns of the Russo-Japanese war).
Do members of the ROK Foreign Ministry reprise that scene from the Charlie Chaplin movie (The Great Dictator I think) — the one where he contemplates the globe dreamily and bounces it up in the air?
Maybe some of them look forward to American diplomatic support for this idea (when they’re not otherwise engaged in kicking the Americans in the shin — diplomatically speaking).
Well, it’s a relatively short distance to the area concerned — but a long long way there in practicality, before such a claim can be pressed.
Hmmm, it occurs to me on further reflection that discussion (private) of this claim is a way for the Foreign Ministry to “make nice” and have an area of mutual interest with their normally stony-faced and unsympathetic counterparts in the DPRK Foreign Ministry.
Ah yes, there’s a spectacle to excite the masses — North and South reuniting triumphantly in order to press their claim to the lost lands. Good lord I hope we’re out of there before that happens.
Have you seen the movie 2009: Lost Memories Paul H?
It was an interesting movie about Korea in the year 2009 still being a part of Japan. The movie was really good and could have been spectacular had the director not thrown everything totally to the wind by introducing a sci-fi plot halfway into the movie and making it entirely predictable. A major Deus Ex Machina leading to the liberation of Korea (and unification of course). What amused me most was one scene in the latter half of the movie where an older Korean gentlemen claims that all of Manchuria belongs to Korea and that a united Korea would press for its return in 2009. Now of course in light of present political realities, all of this is merely wishful thinking at best. Yet it just goes to show that the idea has traction within South Korean society that it was bothered to be incorporated into a mainstream movie.
No, don’t speak Korean and have never been there — but I like history and have always taken an interest in the place, as I might have been assigned there while I was active duty.
You’d think the ROK Foreign Ministry would be working day and night to diplomatically engage the Chinese about the plight of North Korea. They should explore financial incentives for China to provide assistance for North Korean refugees there, and to prepare for the inevitable day when the NorK regime collapses. One imagines that such an effort would engender American diplomatic sympathy and support — even substantial promises of US financial assistance for such an effort. Oh well…
“Make no mistake, Korean irrdentists aren?€™t merely content with Gando, they want all of what was Manchuria including Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang. Maybe Shandong province to boot.”
Yeah right Jing. I’m surprised you stopped at all of Manchuria and Shandong, why not all of China and even Tibet? Korea historically has never had interest in such blatant territorial ambitions like China has presently and in the past, so get off your high horse. Come on, what’s issue at here is what China started in the early 1990’s - claiming Koguryo as its provincial state, puposely having an eye on North Korea after its fall. That’s what the real issue here is.
I’m betting the Gando issue will be dropped once the Chinese government stops the the North East Asia Lies (oops I mean history) project. Perhaps it’s not really smart to anger China right now, but we’re not talking about trying to take back Gando by force here. Korea can play the same tactic that the Chinese are playing. Be stubborn on staking a claim on something, watch all the comotion and irritation coming out of the effected country, but don’t try to violate the current border lines.
But I agree that this is a bad idea from the Roh government. The Uri could have used the Gando card more wisely by biding its time but they’re blowing it big time. This won’t lead to war (not even close), but it will irritate the hell out of China and I can see what China may do. They’ll probably slap on trade sanctions on South Korean imports under some other false pretexts (remember the garlic war?) and we’ll end up with a full blown trade war that South Korea can’t win.
Obviouslly you don’t have a thorough understanding of cause and effect Kimbob or you’d realize that practically everything you said was bullshit. China didn’t start the Koguryo issue, it had no reason to. There are no ethnic Koreans in China pressing for the parts of Manchuria to be ceeded to South Korea. Chinese Nationalism, as much as everyone focuses on it these days, is focused on Taiwan. Hardly any Chinese besides those living in the Northeast have ever heard of Koguryo. Koguryo was hardly an issue on the CCP agenda, unless of course you happen to believe they all of a sudden decided, jee wizz, lets be evil today.
No, The Koguryo/Gando issue was begun by the South Koreans a while ago. It is South Korean nationalism, which almost all western commentators have failed to pick up on, that is at the heart of it. Some authors will focus on Chinese nationalism or CCP policy but anyone with half a brain would realize that this is a complete canard. Frankly speaking, the CCP nor the Chinese public gave a rats ass about Gando or Koguryo while these are important issues to both the South Korean public and politicians.
While western and korean commentators have harped continuously about Chinese scholarship on this issue. They turn a blind eye to the fact that South Korea has been pulling this irridentist crap for the past decade. Gando to one degree or another has been on the table since the 90’s when it was Korean nationalism that chose to make an issue of it. It was only within the last year or two that China got fed up with stunts south Korea was pulling (such as sending evangelical nationalist missionaries into northeast China) and chose to fire back. The Northeast Asia History Project only began in 2002 and despite some information stateing that 2 billion dollars has been issued for this case, the bulk of the funding is likely to go into actual renovation work and archaeological recovery, not propaganda. Marmot had an aerial picture of one of the Koguryo ruins under renovation from I believe the Chosunilbo. After following the link, there was a small discussion about the restoration with one added tin-foil hat response inserted that it feared China maybe restoring the ruins in a “Chinese” style. With some Koreans this paranoid about the issue, you are blaming the Chinese for starting it?
South Korea has been muttering about Gando for a while now, it was just that it generally flew under the radar. It only came into public awareness in the west when the Chinese finally decided to do something about it and the South Koreans cried foul.
Talking about bull shits, let’s talke about yours.
So South Korea all of a sudden decided to become evil and decided to claim Gando?
And your:
“No, The Koguryo/Gando issue was begun by the South Koreans a while ago. ”
B-S. Well let’s go back in time shall we? When did the Korean government pass the bill to claim Gando? Hardly has South Korea even mention Gando after WWII maybe other than few non-official mutterances - hardly enough justified reason for a complete revamp of Koguryo history. So China is wrecking Koguryo culture and replacing it with Chinese because of some nationalistic insecurity about Gando. Right, agreed.
I don’t think China’s ill gotten territory which China got through negotiating with then the Japanese Empire is in no danger of South Korean missionaries running rampant with the Bible, spreading, Christianity. Wow what terrible thing to do! Your solution? Revamp history and turn everything into Chinese. That will fix those christians from spreading their religion and false and dangerous ideals like free elections, freedom of religion, right of free speech, freedom to criticize the government, and other such nonsense ideals!
You now what Jing? We need more missionaries flooding that entire area because even if I’m not religious, I think it’s good that those folks are there to help those North Koreans who are being slaved, killed, abused and tortured by the North Korean and Chinese commie coalition of the satanic evil. Good for them!
Of course most Chinese could care less about Koguryo. That’s because it’s never been part of their identity so they don’t have a clue what it is other than what they are being told by the all free and democratic Communist party of China so it must be true.
Actually, Manchurian claims are quite old. Some statements to this effect can be traced back to Ch’oe Nam-son’s writings of the 1920s, and in 1990 An Ch’on’s ‘Manju uri tang’ (’Manchuria is our land’ a huge volume of few hundred pages) became a major national bestseller.
On the popular level, where nationalism of different colours (largely anti-American on the Left and anti-Japanese on the Right) reigns supreme, these bold/insane claims obviously enjoy significant support. But now it seems that they are becoming sort of official…
Personally, I believe that these games are very, very dangerous - like any territorial claims. It is not quite clear why the Korean side began these deadly games right now. I believe that professional diplomats should be cynical and clever enough not to mistake nationalist chants for practical programs (even if my personal experiences with Russian diplomats sometimes makes me think otherwise). Still, I hope that there is (should be) some reason for all this madness - otherwise this is, well, pure madness.
I hope that the (largely American and right-leaning) audience of this blog will not feel offended by the following speculation. May be, by provoking China, some pro-US people inside the ROK Foreign Ministry want to prevent the further deterioration of the relations with the US? If China reacts strongly, this will probably damage its newly acquired (and completely undeserved) rosy image in the eyes of the Korean youth. Just a speculation…
To through a tid bit into the historical mix, there was a movement by Korean intellectuals and historians - or at least historian want-a-bees — in the late 1800s that sought to counter Korean society’s obvious weakness compared to Japan (and Russia, or France and the UK) by trying to boost Korean strength by calling for Korea to reclaim Korguryo.
I don’t have the time right now, but look at the U. of Hawaii’s Korean Center’s excellent biblography site for articles (in English) about Shin Jae-Ho. Shin ended his life after the Japanese did take over Korea advocating anarchy, but before all that, he was a very strong advocate of taking over Manchuria.
I think the best thing that can be said about the South Korean government officially taking up claims of parts of contemporary China is
A little more….
Korea could be thinking the way it brought this up is a measured response to the government in China backing historians that lay claim potentially to parts of North Korea.
That could be right.
It is a dangerous game to play, however, when China has a government that can do as it wishes with trade and other issues much more so than the US government can.
I can’t say and don’t care who started the issue. What I am about to right is not an attempt at such.
But, one item to remember from the recent past was South Korean society moving to allow “ethnic Koreans” residing abroad to vote in South Korean elections. By “residing abroad” they meant ANY ethnic Koreans, even those born, bread, and raised in other nations. I’m not sure if 100% pure blood was necessary or not, but it was “ethnic Koreans” being enfranchised beyond their own official nationality to vote for the elections in the Korean “motherland.”
A plan to move back and make a life in Korea didn’t matter. Never having set foot in Korea didn’t matter.
It was supposed to be a measure to encourage the global Korean society to be interested in the motherland.
But, I thought it was mind-boggling
usinkorea, Koea has to balance between not pissing off China and satisfying ethnic Korean background from China who want the same rights (F4 visas) as the Gyopos from the US, Canada and Australia, that allow them to work legally in Korea. It wasn’t long ago 5000 Chinese nationals of ethnic Koreans demonstrated and refused to go home, demanding that they receive South Korean citizenship or permanant residency. South Korean government was roundly criticized for discriminating against Chinese and Russian Gyopos in favor of North American Gyopos. I think that’s why the government tried to come up with a token compromise to satisfy everyone without allowing massive immigration from Korean automous regions. Maybe this is what you’re talking about. I don’t think ethnic Koreans from China can vote in the national elections nor do I think that will ever happen, so practically nothing has changed other than that more ethnic Koreans are being deported during the illegal immigrant crackdown.
The reason that the government gave for this discrimination was that they didn’t want to offend China. In fact, Korea has bent backwards including doing the somersaults to NOT offend China on ANY issues. And China has done a hell of a lot which rightfully deserves Korean hostility. They are so numerous that I may end up writing all day so I won’t get into it now. Traditionally, in the eyes of Korea, China can’t do no wrong and China has gotten away with lot of things that they should have been criticized for.
My point being is, there comes a time when you break the last straw just before you get that first unpleasant reaction.
Like I said, it’s bad move to deal the Gando card now. It’s too much based on emotionalism rather than logic. But I certainly can understand what’s behind it.
If anybody thinks there will be a war soon with China and Korea over Gando, you’re in the la la land.
First, it won’t happen because it’s impossible. Second, even if everyone wants war, Gando is out of reach of South Korea geographically. It would be pretty difficult if not impossible to invade it. So not to worry and I say that sarcastically.
“Wrecking Korguryo culture”?? But…but… if it’s not living culture, how does one go around wrecking something that doesn’t really exist?
“Sending more missionaries”. Definitely. Otherwise, they might add to the unemployment problem in Korea.
As you can see, Koreans are currently more interested in the new `religion’ of pornography! So there’s no work in Korea for them, unless they want to join the anti-US protestors.
You want Koguryo? Take it, take it! How is Korea going to pay for the maintenance of the World Heritage site? We’ll roll it on the plastic! Or pay more taxes. Plenty of disposable income, right?
China doesn’t care for the old kingdom? Natch. All those Koguryons were `sinicized’ and joined the Hans, along with Jews (in Kaifeng) Arabs, Persians, northern tribes,etc.
The other Koguryons were conned by Shilla into joining them, who then used an encompassing label called Korea to lord it over everyone else on the peninsula. And now, dreaming of Gando, Liaoning, etc.
Ever heard of loudmouthed Korean businessmen boasting that Shandong belongs to Korea?
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Not many Korean folks are really interested in the Gando territory. It’s a tit-for-tat-hammer to show the Chinese, that the ROK will never accept them Chinese Communists’ abduction of Koguryon history as an episode of Han-Chinese grand history.
The judgement, if this tool is a clever one or not, is up to the diplomatic experts. For now, I can see the preemptive nature of this move by the Foreign Ministry. The contra-Korean posts by many commentors at Marmot’s Koguryo posts speak for themselves: even the dumbest dyslexic idiot thought about being an ancient East Asian history expert and spouted nonsense accompaning and fitting in Chinese propaganda scheme.
Clear message to the Chinese: don’t touch Koguryo and therefore Korean history and you can keep all of rusting Manchuria.
Remember, even North Koreans fought it out with their Chinese counterparts at border conflicts involving the Paekdusan-area in the middle and late 60s.
Never trust a country’s leadership that has raped Tibet for half a century and telling the world continuously, how fucking happy the Tibetians are about their Chinese oppressors. Reminds me of Imperial Japan…
Ouch, ouch…a black eye! That’s what I like about Korean men, the way they handle the women…strong and assertive.
Never mind, I’ll just put on more black makeup on the other eye, and I’ll look like a Japanese `ganguro’ girl.
I likkeee Japan. I only hate that WW2 bit. Thanks for letting us keep Manchuria. Take Goguryo if you can afford its upkeep.
I’ll stay wired to Tibet, and post y’all on any complaints from those ex-serfs of the former Tibetan nobility.
Yes, they’re all certain to be grateful to their new CCP nobility.
“Take Goguryo if you can afford its upkeep.”
Has the CCP government given in and is offering this officially? Nope. It’s just yen jun being a smart ass. Offer not accepted.
>Clear message to the Chinese: don?€™t touch Koguryo
>and therefore Korean history and you can keep all of
>rusting Manchuria.
Does this mean that mighty Korean army is stating ready to invade China and drive the nototiously small Chinese forces away at any time?
Dangerous illusions… It’s OK for the masses to entertain such day dreams (nationalist cocktails might be quite stimulating), but I hope it will not influence the serious poeple.
Dr. Lankov — I think the reason Korea is playing these deadly games, so to speak, at this juncture is the Koguryo issue, which is ironic, because the Koguryo/Northeastern Project seemed to be sparked by concerns about the future of Gando. It’s possible that pro-U.S. elements in the Foreign Ministry have been trying to spark an issue with China in an effort to try to force Korea back towards the U.S., but it’s really hard to tell. This latest incident would seem to have backing from the top, and Foreign Minister Ban has been hinting for some time that the Gando issue was, in fact, a pending one. Like I said, it’s hard to tell, because Roh’s leadership style is such that its really tough to get a read on what the official position on anything really is. He tends to let the intra/inter-ministry battles play out, so to speak, with him there as a kind of referee. The Gando isn’t playing out along the usual left/right lines, either. The biggest booster seems to be the right-wing Chosun Ilbo, but at the same time, the guy who submitted that motion in the National Assembly that got 59 signatures was Uri Party, and even OhMyNews seems to like the idea. Like I said, who could guess what the motivations are with this? You’d know more than I would.
Fully agree that this is dangerous territory we’re moving into, though. Especially at this juncture. I mean, why in God’s good name would the Chinese be even remotely cooperative in helping Korea re-unify if they new a re-unified Korea was likely to advance territorial claims on the PRC? It makes no sense at all. Once could argue this was a way to make a “bargaining chip” for Koguryo, but given how the Koguryo issue was largely created out of fear that such a territorial claim might be lodged, I’m not quite certain how this will make the Chinese any more agreeable to discussion.
Kimbob — I think it might be helpful at this point to make something clear. You’re partially correct in the sense that the Koguryo issue heightened awareness in Korea of the Gando issue. That much is true. However, politicians and scholars had been talking about the issue previously, even if the ROK never took an official stance on the matter. This is from that OhMyNews link above:
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I mean, that’s as clear a statement as you’re going to get. Granted, such talk probably didn’t arouse the general population, but you had to expect China to notice. In fact, most of the [Korean] scholars who I have read readily admit that the Koguryo/Northeast Asia issue was primarily a defense mechanism against possible separatism and/or irredentist claims being placed on parts of Manchuria by a re-unified Korea (and, one would imagine, the Republic of Mongolia, which had been accused in the late 1990s of supporting separatist groups in Inner Mongolia). That’s not an excuse for China to claim Koguryo history, BTW, which was simply dumb and potentially threatening, but making an open claim on Chinese territory is unlikely to help resolve that matter.
One thing is for sure: China’s intentions are not altruistic and are not to be trusted. Sooner or later, South Korea will have to deal with China and I’m afraid that the interchange will suprise more than disapoint, especially considering the ineptness of the politicians in SK.
That’s right Marmot.
“ROK never took an official stance on the matter”.
This is certainly very different from Chinese government actively sponsoring the roadmap to the North Korea takeover via the Koguryo history revisionism. Some ROK scholars may have talked about it, but it was mostly restricted to the academia - far different from sneaky China’s goverment meddlings in Koguryo history study. Gando has never really been in the high consciousness of most Koreans who could care less about that dump until the Chinese government broke their verbal promise not to medal in the academic research that they’ve sponsored. China’s recent past records with its neighbor countries show what they’re really up to. I don’t trust them one bit.
I think you missed my point. Regardless of whether there was an official stance or not, there have been persistent calls — including from political figures — for the territory to be handed to Korea, at least from the mid-1990s. As for Korea not taking an official stance, well, that can work both ways. Hey, for that matter, neither has China on Koguryo, per say — I believe Beijing’s line is that the Northeast Asia project is an academic one that has nothing to do with government. Of course, this is a crock of shit, but nonetheless, when you got policians in Korea submitting resolutions into the National Assembly calling for the nullification of the Gando Agreement — something that took place during both the 16th and 17th National Assemblies — certainly you could understand why Beijing might have been concerned, especially when you consider the history of Manchuria, rising Korean nationalism, impending unification, and China’s well documented sensitivity to potential separatist movements. It should be pointed out that Roh’s supposed request that ethnic Koreans in China be given “dual citizenship” and the discussion that took place during the previous administration about giving ethnic Koreans from China limited citizenship rights in Korea didn’t help the matter.
There’s a lot of silly stuff going on here. Of course, not all of it is coming from Korea, but that’s not to say Seoul has been completely without fault.
I hope it’s just hot air — and that it’s perceived as such in Beijing. There are few things more dangerous in the world than giving the leaders of a shaky and powerful country with a large chip on its shoulder reason to believe you want to muscle in on their territory.
The Chinese wouldn’t have to do all that much — just decide that they’re not all that invested in a peaceful or speedy resolution to matters on the Korean peninsula.
Oh,no, Kimbob, that means I’ll have to convert those dorky ruins into a Disney-style theme park!!
It’s the only way the poor Chinese can make Koguryo pay its own way, with warrior rides, water slides and all.
If you come visit, I’d even show you around myself, just to prove what a good job we Commies have done with Koguryo.
I’d even sing Arirang and the Do-Rae-chi harvest song for you - see, Koguryo is really Korean!!
And it sure isn’t Chinese.
yen jun, koguryo history is not the only thing that China tries to steal. Can you name them? China, a nation whose foundation is based on thievery.
China a nation whose foundation is based on thievery?
give it a rest already Kimbob.
Sorry Jing, I would have to agree with Kimbob. China has a long history of thievery and still does.
Here is an example: http://nytimes.com/2004/10/13/.....ising.html
I guess it’s the dark side of the force . . .
China should be split up into different countries so that it is never big enough to bully its neighbors again.
Schismatics such as yourself Tron piss me off. But then again, as they say, should and would builds no bridges. Such aspirations by rightists are inevitably hollow.
Mr. Elgin, I’ve already read that NYT article. Care to explain how it is indicative that China has a long history of thievery? I’ts about three individuals and their struggles in contemporary China.
To be contradictory, I could more persuasively argue that America was founded on thievery. Simple murder of native Indian inhabitants and the theft of their land. Even now, Native American history has “stolen” and incorporated into European-American history. Isn’t this the cultural imperialism that so many accuse the Chinese of commiting?
Im not a rightist Im a realist - China WILL be less dangerous to its neighbors as a group of counter-balancing nations, split along cultural-linguisic lines that already exist. Heck, it WILL prolly be easier than the Germany-Austria split! All it WILL take is an international catastrophe!
This seems to me to fit hand in glove with the rising chuavenism coming out of ROK in the last 5-10 years, which is Korea trying to beat Japan and China in the east Asian game of we-are-the-smartest-and-most-capable-people-in-the-world pissing contest.
And how exactly will China fracturing benefit the Chinese? Oh yeah, lets see, it won’t.
Sure it would benefit them! They will be rid of the lumbering, inefficient central govt… central govt for 1.3 billion people, you must admit, is not a useful idea. Second, they will have more cultural/linguistic autonomy in particular regions! Some might say such an arrangement would recognize the reality of China today anyway. It would benefit China greatly to be reduced to a few friendly nation states!
Well, Kimbob, I’ve been beaten to it again.
I would say “honour among thieves” - except America, unfortunately, is the bigger one.
China break-up? Yes, you read and hear no end of it. Look at how some “free” countries put down their own secessionists.
Less dangerous to its neighbours? Some friendly neighbours have been far more dangerous and ruthless.
And we don’t even have to talk about neighbours….
The reality of China today? What about the reality of US of A?? Hahah…
Nice country - but California itself acconts for probably the biggest chunk of the American economy. By some reckoning, it is the world’s fifth largest economy…
But of course it will take an earthquake before Washington lets the state split away…
By recognizing this treaty both China and Korea are actually accepting that Japan legally ruled Korea rather than it was an ocupying force. Surly the treaty would have been wiped out by Japanese unconditional surender and post war admissions.
I think that this is rather comical. China is actually backing a treaty forced on Korea by Japan, and if it is then China must also recognize the legitimacy of all treaties forced on it by Japan. Including the one where Taiwan was signed over to the emporer.
I know that China likes distorting history against Japan, but now its using Japanese treaties for its own ends.
Its rather sad isn’t it.
True to an extent ACB, but the Chinese position isn’t solely based on the Gando conventions. You seem to have mistaken the Chinese claim for the Korean claim, it is the Koreans who singularly claim that since the Gando treaty is unfair because of Japan and that they should get territory back. There is a fairly strong case to be made that the Gando territory is in fact Chinese and the Japanese simply supported the Korean claim in the first place so that they could extract concessions from China to begin with. In any case, the border as it presently exists was dilineated between the PRC and DPRK in 1962, not between Imperial China and Japan. Not much the South can really do about this. East Germany lost a sizeable portion of Prussia to Poland after the end of WW2 and although some Germans were a bit miffed, generally it hasn’t generated much of an issue and they haven’t tried to recover it. The South Koreans on the other hand, seem to be hell bent on Gando while ignoring the glaring problem of the territory in question belonging to North Korea, which had of course already signed it away. In any case, present demographics in the Gando region are not favourable to Korean claims since the overwhelming majority of people living there now are Chinese. Even in the concentrated Korean areas such as Yangbian, the population is only 40% or so Korean. It’s truely a Quixotic moment in South Korean politics.
I think Dr.Lankov really got to the crux of the matter. As we Korean people say, we are but shrimp caught between clashing of whales. Most Korean people, although pining at the lost territories of Uljimunduk, has never advocated the invasion of present day Chinese territories–Gando or whereever. (except for the occassional nutjobs) However, virtually all Korean youths do believe that the Chinese have unfairly subjugated Korea in the past, including but obviously not limited to the annexation of “Baekdu” or “Changbai” area. In this respect, a lot of Korean people do look at the Chinese in the same light they look at the Japanese, Russians, and even Americans—a long line of Imperialist powers trying to annex Korea. (As Korean American, I object to the idea that America is an imperialist power; however that is how America is clearly viewed.)
Whatever the case may be, PRC will not resist the idea that Goguryo is Chinese in order to pre-empt any irredentalist ideals. Let’s face reality-despite what any Korean nationalist claims about Gando, there is NOTHING they can do about it, regardless of “moral” justification before or after eventual reunification. Moreover, as Thucidydes wrote, the strong does whatever it wants and the weak becomes the biach.
This is pretty simple enough and points to the obvious conclusion that Korea without the United States is but a province of China. Hanchongryun kids do not get this out of pride, and will never accept this idea. I hope that if the Hanchongryun kids ever “win” in their idealogical debates with the general Korean pubic, the Chinese will treat us better than they treat the Tibetans.
One thing is clear: When the Chinese youths launch their bravado at the Japanese for past grievances, they will wage war on Korea. Any conflict between Japan and China does not mean mushroom clouds over Beijing or Tokyo, it means mushroom cloud over Seoul or PyongYang.
Koreans like many other people in the world, believe that they have an inalienable rights to nuclear weapons for defensive purposes–and I do not mean ONLY the Koreans above the 38th parallel. The United States has been working furiously to keep the Korean peninsula nuclear free–as well as it’s ally Japan and Taiwan.
I question the wisdom of today’s South Korean kids. They are digging their own graves. They should consider learning mandarin if they continue with their present actions.
Eyes on Korea: 2004-10-26
Eberstadt’s article; China plans annexation?; NK defectors making “big push”; Chinese humanitarianism; Reactions to the NK Human Rights Act; The information war; NK prison camps; Various diplomatic military strategies; ROK in Iraq; Anti-Americanis…
Simon’s E. Asia Briefing: 2004-10-27
The following is a digest of highlights from the past month’s Asia by Blog series over at simonworld.mu.nu. The round-up has four key areas of focus: China, Taiwan Hong Kong (Politics, Economy lifestyle, History sport culture, Information), Kore…
I am an Corean and not an American Korean or whatever
even though i have lived in Corea for only 1 year.
I love Corea with all my heart and i will gladly die for it
I hate all you hypocrites like kimbob and virtual wanderer
no wonder our nation has so much traitors
I am also not an idiot and know considerable amount of world history slash geography
you betrayers are the shame of our country and I cannot believe you guys are humans.
Lets face the facts
Corea is the ninth biggest economy in the world with close to a trillion dollars in GDP and with a national GNP of $19,000.(japan=$23,000)(usa=$28,000)(china=$4,000)
We also have the third most mightiest army, navy, air force in the whole dang world
nobody can beat us except china and the usa, militarywise, which means without nukes
also Corea has over 55 nuclear power plants (Japan=80) (usa=230)
(north Corea=1) which means if, i said if we started to produce nuclear weapons, we would produce over 3 nukes a day, about a hundred nuclear weapons a month, over a thousand in a year
we have nuclear capability, army, economy, and a few people who are proud to have Corean blood like me
I dont care about what you chinks, americans, “KorAmericans(who betrayed their own blood and ancestors), and other people think but it is true that korea is from koryo which is from kogoryo
u see it?
u cant take koguryo or its history, it is our national identity korea which derives from koguryo
we descend from the ancient horse riding ancestors
who roamed the plains of manchuria and died for their country and why cant u guys get it
korea is the only nation in the world which fought for its life against aggressors such as China and japan
and we were successful how do i know that?
cuz im here and Corea is here
God bless Corea, my beloved homeland even though my body has left the land for 16 years. I shall never betray you
China is the evil and we have to defend our selves
why dont people know that
ill bet all of you my tennis racket and my xbox that china is going to rise in power by 2020 which is less than 15 years from now
i will be over 30 yrs by then
I know most Corean people outside of Corea and some even in korea dont give a dang about Corea
If Corea was in a war against china they would choose china
and i am so sad to say it is true
if anybody agrees with me send me an email @ flycrazy88@hanmail.net
if you love Corea tell me about it
oh yeah i forgot it doesnt matter if Gods of your side
cuz we are on God’s side
49% of Coreans are christian and we are on God’s side
and Jesus wont just stand there
all you christians pray for our country
and pray for our land including Gando and Dokdo, especially the ancient land of the Koguryo and its history, which our ancestors have died by the millions to protect for us
God bless Corea and long lived the soon to be unified (even though china is trying to take north Corea) Corea
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