Comments on: Kim Dae-jung and anti-Americanism in S. Korea http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/ Korea... in Blog Format Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:41:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: coming anarchy Blog Archive A big FU to Greece http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7213 coming anarchy Blog Archive A big FU to Greece Sat, 06 Nov 2004 02:49:10 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7213 [...] ess toward stability in the region. Riiiiiiiiiiigght. But considering the recent South Korea-esque anti-Americanism in Greece and Powell&# [...] [...] ess toward stability in the region. Riiiiiiiiiiigght. But considering the recent South Korea-esque anti-Americanism in Greece and Powell&# [...]

]]> By: Jerry http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7212 Jerry Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:10:21 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7212 For what it's worth, I lived in the heart of Jong-no Jonggak from Nov 2002 - Jan 2004. Right above the Holly's copy (heh 'coffee' I mean). Pretty much every night I would walk by hundreds of drunk Koreans. I also had a Korean girlfriend for most of the time. Probably the worst thing that happened to me is that a restaurant I was interested in, Peppers and Garlic, had a sign banning Americans. Also, a guy at Popeyes told me he didn't like Americans but then later apologized for his rude comment. Maybe I was lucky or low-key but I felt absolutly no danger or threat at all. For what it’s worth, I lived in the heart of Jong-no Jonggak from Nov 2002 - Jan 2004. Right above the Holly’s copy (heh ‘coffee’ I mean). Pretty much every night I would walk by hundreds of drunk Koreans. I also had a Korean girlfriend for most of the time. Probably the worst thing that happened to me is that a restaurant I was interested in, Peppers and Garlic, had a sign banning Americans. Also, a guy at Popeyes told me he didn’t like Americans but then later apologized for his rude comment. Maybe I was lucky or low-key but I felt absolutly no danger or threat at all.

]]> By: The Marmot http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7211 The Marmot Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:38:28 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7211 Mr. Choe, frankly, I think you raised a lot of excellent points that often get left out of the mix. Anti-Americanism didn't start with Bush -- Bush simply made it fashionable. I agree that the Sunshine Policy led to a significant rise in anti-Americanism, especially as it began to fail and DJs people needed someone to pin the blame on. Likewise, DJs decision to let the 2002 protests fester made good sense politically in terms of getting Roh elected, but it came at a cost in terms of the alliance. It was at that point that one really started to hear U.S. politicians and columnists -- Republicans in particular -- calling for U.S. troops to be withdrawn and the alliance downgraded. That being said, I think what some may object to is that the tone might be considered, well, exagerated to some extent. I've been to Gangnam quite a bit, and the only danger I've ever felt there was to my bank account, especially if my wife is with me. Even in 2002, when the flag burning season was at its zenith, it wasn't exactly a bad day in Falluja. Yeah, it left a lot of bad feelings -- especially for those of us who were here at the time -- and probably caused considerable damage to the diplomatic relationship between the two countries, but the "hate" was of a completely different nature than what you might find in, say, major cities in the Muslim world. I mean, the worst incident that I recall was the one GI getting taken off the subway after an altercation with an agitator, taken by student radicals to Kyung Hee U. and forced to attend a remembrance ceremony/anti-American protest. Bad? Yes. But his mutilated corpse wasn't strung up from any of the Han River bridges, which is what might very well have happened in a similar circumstance in Baghdad or Cairo. Saying nasty things about the Americans in a Starbucks in Gangnam and plotting suicide bombings in Cairo are not the same thing, so to speak. Even things like "the U.S. is a bigger threat to S. Korea than N. Korea" survey results have to be read in their proper context. What that means is that many Koreans are concerned that the U.S. might launch a war on N. Korea, NOT that N. Korea doesn't represent a threat or that the alliance with the U.S. should be disbanded. Most Koreans still recognize that an alliance with the world's only superpower is, in the final account, probably a good thing (especially in this neighborhood), and most of the bitching (albeit loud bitching) that goes on seems to be over relatively minor issues. Actually, if anything is a real threat to the relationship, it's not so much anti-Americanism in its noxious but ultimately harmless street variety. It's that perceptions of national interests might differ to such an extent the alliance might rupture. For example, Seoul might decide it wasn't worth trying to stop N. Korea from exporting nuclear technology if that meant risking a North Korean attack, or the U.S. might decide its interests in the region would best be served by evacuating the premises and allowing a remilitarized Japan to take over beat. At that point, I think it might be useful in discussing who lost whom, but I'm not sure if we're quite there yet. Mr. Choe, frankly, I think you raised a lot of excellent points that often get left out of the mix. Anti-Americanism didn’t start with Bush — Bush simply made it fashionable. I agree that the Sunshine Policy led to a significant rise in anti-Americanism, especially as it began to fail and DJs people needed someone to pin the blame on. Likewise, DJs decision to let the 2002 protests fester made good sense politically in terms of getting Roh elected, but it came at a cost in terms of the alliance. It was at that point that one really started to hear U.S. politicians and columnists — Republicans in particular — calling for U.S. troops to be withdrawn and the alliance downgraded. That being said, I think what some may object to is that the tone might be considered, well, exagerated to some extent. I’ve been to Gangnam quite a bit, and the only danger I’ve ever felt there was to my bank account, especially if my wife is with me. Even in 2002, when the flag burning season was at its zenith, it wasn’t exactly a bad day in Falluja. Yeah, it left a lot of bad feelings — especially for those of us who were here at the time — and probably caused considerable damage to the diplomatic relationship between the two countries, but the “hate” was of a completely different nature than what you might find in, say, major cities in the Muslim world. I mean, the worst incident that I recall was the one GI getting taken off the subway after an altercation with an agitator, taken by student radicals to Kyung Hee U. and forced to attend a remembrance ceremony/anti-American protest. Bad? Yes. But his mutilated corpse wasn’t strung up from any of the Han River bridges, which is what might very well have happened in a similar circumstance in Baghdad or Cairo. Saying nasty things about the Americans in a Starbucks in Gangnam and plotting suicide bombings in Cairo are not the same thing, so to speak. Even things like “the U.S. is a bigger threat to S. Korea than N. Korea” survey results have to be read in their proper context. What that means is that many Koreans are concerned that the U.S. might launch a war on N. Korea, NOT that N. Korea doesn’t represent a threat or that the alliance with the U.S. should be disbanded. Most Koreans still recognize that an alliance with the world’s only superpower is, in the final account, probably a good thing (especially in this neighborhood), and most of the bitching (albeit loud bitching) that goes on seems to be over relatively minor issues.

Actually, if anything is a real threat to the relationship, it’s not so much anti-Americanism in its noxious but ultimately harmless street variety. It’s that perceptions of national interests might differ to such an extent the alliance might rupture. For example, Seoul might decide it wasn’t worth trying to stop N. Korea from exporting nuclear technology if that meant risking a North Korean attack, or the U.S. might decide its interests in the region would best be served by evacuating the premises and allowing a remilitarized Japan to take over beat. At that point, I think it might be useful in discussing who lost whom, but I’m not sure if we’re quite there yet.

]]> By: hardyandtiny http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7210 hardyandtiny Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:12:40 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7210 ?€œhardyandtiny, do you accept the fact that women can have flawed views? That is even if they are Korean women? I know it?€™s pretty hard to imagine that those purrrty dolled up Korean women deep down inside can harbor Anti-American sentiments. But you?€™ve got to stop defending the undefensible. From my personal experiences, I find that the more liberated ones that tend to lean more towards the left. It?€™s partially true that lower status of women in Korea do contribute toward some negative aspects of the Korean society (like plastic surgery craze). But that does not mean we should throw away all accountablity for Korean women.?€? This is not a game dependent on what I do or do not accept. I have stated my theory as to why there is anti-Americanism in Korea. Your reluctance to view my simplicity is typical. You are finding it difficult to realize that anti-Americanism in Korea is caused by the inevitable change that must happen between Korean men and women ?€œhardyandtiny, do you accept the fact that women can have flawed views? That is even if they are Korean women? I know it?€™s pretty hard to imagine that those purrrty dolled up Korean women deep down inside can harbor Anti-American sentiments. But you?€™ve got to stop defending the undefensible. From my personal experiences, I find that the more liberated ones that tend to lean more towards the left. It?€™s partially true that lower status of women in Korea do contribute toward some negative aspects of the Korean society (like plastic surgery craze). But that does not mean we should throw away all accountablity for Korean women.?€?

This is not a game dependent on what I do or do not accept. I have stated my theory as to why there is anti-Americanism in Korea. Your reluctance to view my simplicity is typical. You are finding it difficult to realize that anti-Americanism in Korea is caused by the inevitable change that must happen between Korean men and women

]]> By: kimbob http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7209 kimbob Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:33:30 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7209 hardyandtiny, do you accept the fact that women can have flawed views? That is even if they are Korean women? I know it's pretty hard to imagine that those purrrty dolled up Korean women deep down inside can harbor Anti-American sentiments. But you've got to stop defending the undefensible. From my personal experiences, I find that the more liberated ones that tend to lean more towards the left. It's partially true that lower status of women in Korea do contribute toward some negative aspects of the Korean society (like plastic surgery craze). But that does not mean we should throw away all accountablity for Korean women. hardyandtiny, do you accept the fact that women can have flawed views? That is even if they are Korean women? I know it’s pretty hard to imagine that those purrrty dolled up Korean women deep down inside can harbor Anti-American sentiments. But you’ve got to stop defending the undefensible. From my personal experiences, I find that the more liberated ones that tend to lean more towards the left. It’s partially true that lower status of women in Korea do contribute toward some negative aspects of the Korean society (like plastic surgery craze). But that does not mean we should throw away all accountablity for Korean women.

]]> By: hardyandtiny http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7208 hardyandtiny Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:04:47 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7208 "I haven?€™t seen the show but I may find couple of problems though. This is just from reading the aricles but one: Korean women don?€™t have plastic surgery to look like caucasions - fallacy." True, but Korean men DO convert to Islam to seem more like Muslims. “I haven?€™t seen the show but I may find couple of problems though. This is just from reading the aricles but one: Korean women don?€™t have plastic surgery to look like caucasions - fallacy.”

True, but Korean men DO convert to Islam to seem more like Muslims.

]]> By: The Marmot http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7207 The Marmot Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:35:40 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7207 God damn it, Kimbob, I was about to blog that :) Actually, I had to do the Chosun translation, which was thankfully aided by a commenter over at Yahoo! Korea who posted the original English version. Nothing I hate more than than re-translating English quotes from Korean back into English. God damn it, Kimbob, I was about to blog that :)
Actually, I had to do the Chosun translation, which was thankfully aided by a commenter over at Yahoo! Korea who posted the original English version. Nothing I hate more than than re-translating English quotes from Korean back into English.

]]> By: Kimbob http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7206 Kimbob Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:27:05 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7206 Talking about Korean women. Here's something a bit unrelated to the current topic at hand. It's Oprah Winfrey's show concerning women of the world. <a href="http://ucc.media.daum.net/uccmix/news/entertain/broadcast/200410/13/SpoHankook/v7523819.html?u_b1.valuecate=4&u_b1.svcid=02y&u_b1.objid1=16602&u_b1.targetcate=4&u_b1.targetkey1=17142&u_b1.targetkey2=7523819&nil_profile=g&nil_NewsImg=4" rel="nofollow">http://ucc.media.daum.net/uccmix/news/entertain/broadcast/200410/13/SpoHankook/v7523819.html?u_b1.valuecate=4&u_b1.svcid=02y&u_b1.objid1=16602&u_b1.targetcate=4&u_b1.targetkey1=17142&u_b1.targetkey2=7523819&nil_profile=g&nil_NewsImg=4</a> and here's the English version <a href="http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410130018.html" rel="nofollow">http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410130018.html</a> I don't see where the fuss is. It is the truth that South Korea does a lot of plastic surgery. It is the truth, right? So why does this make the national news? I haven't seen the show but I may find couple of problems though. This is just from reading the aricles but one: Korean women don't have plastic surgery to look like caucasions - fallacy. Two: Why would you have of all choices, a Chinese woman up there and no Korean woman? She's the one to point and talk. China has now the largest growth rate of plastic surgery in the world (with plastic surgery hospitals going up fast and with it, illegal malpractices) and if they had the same disposable income as South Korea, they would be just as if nor more enthusiastic as the South Korean women to go under the knife. Third, they're talking about positive contributions/aspirations women make in each country (I think), for Korea only, why would you focus on negative aspects like plastic surgery craze while all the other country women are portrayed positively? Bizzare. Talking about Korean women. Here’s something a bit unrelated to the current topic at hand. It’s Oprah Winfrey’s show concerning women of the world.

http://ucc.media.daum.net/uccm....._NewsImg=4

and here’s the English version

http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....30018.html

I don’t see where the fuss is. It is the truth that South Korea does a lot of plastic surgery. It is the truth, right? So why does this make the national news?

I haven’t seen the show but I may find couple of problems though. This is just from reading the aricles but one: Korean women don’t have plastic surgery to look like caucasions - fallacy. Two: Why would you have of all choices, a Chinese woman up there and no Korean woman? She’s the one to point and talk. China has now the largest growth rate of plastic surgery in the world (with plastic surgery hospitals going up fast and with it, illegal malpractices) and if they had the same disposable income as South Korea, they would be just as if nor more enthusiastic as the South Korean women to go under the knife. Third, they’re talking about positive contributions/aspirations women make in each country (I think), for Korea only, why would you focus on negative aspects like plastic surgery craze while all the other country women are portrayed positively? Bizzare.

]]> By: hardyandtiny http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7205 hardyandtiny Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:25:10 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7205 "hardyandtiny, no offense, but I think you had too much weed today. Better stop while you still have some logic left. Nobody is holding a gun to these women to participate in expressing their mmm.. opinions." You just don't get it. Korean women in Korea are encouraged to join in anti-American protests. And the more they protest about things that are not supposedly related to Korean domestic problems the more likely they will find in those anti-American/western protests a way to solve their domestic issues without challenging Korean men. Do you get it? “hardyandtiny, no offense, but I think you had too much weed today. Better stop while you still have some logic left. Nobody is holding a gun to these women to participate in expressing their mmm.. opinions.”

You just don’t get it. Korean women in Korea are encouraged to join in anti-American protests. And the more they protest about things that are not supposedly related to Korean domestic problems the more likely they will find in those anti-American/western protests a way to solve their domestic issues without challenging Korean men.
Do you get it?

]]> By: Won Joon Choe http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/10/13/kim-dae-jung-and-anti-americanism-in-s-korea/#comment-7204 Won Joon Choe Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:14:29 +0000 http://rjkoehler.com/?p=1151#comment-7204 Marmot, Thanks for the link! But does "seconding" Oranckay here mean that you agree with his observation that I say "some of the wildest things I've ever heard someone say about Korean society & politics"? :) Kimbob, I didn't mean to imply that 100,000 protesters flood the streets literally every day to chant "Yankee, go home." I meant to say that that was the case during the height of the protests concerning the military vehicle accident. I realize that my language was not so clear--mea culpa. Marmot,

Thanks for the link! But does “seconding” Oranckay here mean that you agree with his observation that I say “some of the wildest things I’ve ever heard someone say about Korean society & politics”? :)
Kimbob,

I didn’t mean to imply that 100,000 protesters flood the streets literally every day to chant “Yankee, go home.” I meant to say that that was the case during the height of the protests concerning the military vehicle accident. I realize that my language was not so clear–mea culpa.

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