One of the last Underwoods remaining alive in Korea, Horace H. Underwood - who is shortly to leave Korea with his family for good, gave a farewell speech to a class of businessmen at Yonsei University. Although I have not been able to find the full text of the speech on the net, the story was covered by almost all Korean newspapers , except for OhMyNews as far as I can see . Those who can should check the Korean reports, since the lecture was apparently delivered in fluent Korean by Dr Underwood, who has taught English literature at Yonsei University since 1971.
Horace H. Underwood is the fourth generation of Underwoods to work in Korea since his great-grandfather, Horace G. Underwood, came to Korea as a Presbyterian missionary in the latter years of the 19th century, and founded Yonsei University in 1915.
What was so interesting about his farewell lecture? I’ll quote from the Korea Times, but please read the whole article:
The professor implied that the insular nature of the Korean people serves as a stumbling block to globalization, urging them to open their minds to foreigners who are interested in the nation.
“A lot of naturalized foreigners in Korea are still regarded as foreigners, not as Koreans. This shows how narrow-minded Koreans are,” he said.
Referring to Koreans as “frogs” attempting to jump out of a well, the professor said, “Koreans should accommodate foreign cultures as well as foreigners who would come to the country.”
Now this is not just a FOB ESL teacher/migrant labourer/US GI saying this, but someone with a long family and personal history in this country, and one who calls himself “an American who loves Korea”.
He also made the point that globalisation is about more than sending Korean students overseas to study (160,000 a year); Korea should welcome and attract more overseas students to its shores (currently around 8,000).
Now, a good friend of mine - a man I respect very much and who has been here a long time, has argued that Koreans actually do accept outsiders if they see them making an effort to do their best to work hard and contribute to society. I must respectfully disagree with my friend, and agree with Dr Underwood that Koreans have a long way to go to opening their society to outsiders.
Many of us foreigners here in Korea come from countries with large segments of the population that are no more than 1 or 2 generations removed from a personal immigration story. Korea as yet does not have a culture of immigration. In fact there is no Ministry of Immigration: all issues of visa and citizenship are dealt with by the Ministry of Justice, suggesting that these are issues relating to criminal law rather than multiculturalism.
I will know for sure that Korea has opened its heart to foreigners when, for example, foreign singing competitions, speech contests, writing contests disappear disappear, when taxes and tariffs on foreign food items are eliminated or greatly reduced, and when Korean people are not afraid or guilty to speak to a foreigner in Korean first, rather than speaking to them in English (or avoiding speaking to them altogether).
Do these seem like unusual criteria? To me, coming from a land of immigrants, they are a sign of ‘normalisation’ of foreign nationals or immigrants in a country; a sign of the removal of any kind of ’special’ status attached to foreigners. Of course there would be many other such signs - forcing male children of naturalised Koreans to do military service, for one. (I would go further than Dr Underwood and suggest that all long-term residents, and not only naturalised citizens, should no longer be thought of as simply ‘foreigners’.) What does all this mean? That ultimately, nationality will no longer be something dictated by one’s race or bloodline.
I invite your comments.
80 Comments
Korean people need to think carefully before they embrace “globalisation”. I agree with most of what you have written here. This insular attitude is perhaps fed by fear and a certain inferiority; a siege mentality accompanies. I hope that when Korea eases this attitude it’s people have the sense to try and pick and choose which aspects it adopts, instead of rushing headlong and quite blindly to become a card carrying member of the “global village”.
Perhaps this can work out when Koreans can view foreigners in a different light, and stop seeing everything through the prism of Korean Culture.
I see great parallels between my on country’s (Ireland) experience and that of Korea. We were the poorest, most insular and conservative nation in Western Europe. Our economic boom brought us from a net exporter of people, to an importer of immigrants : the process hasn’t been easy and many problems remain. My country spent decades feeling inferior to and resenting our colonial neighbour, however now that we have, more or less, put away the resentment and see ourselves as equals in a European context we can now envision a more inclusive and open society for the future.
Perhaps Korea can learn from Ireland’s experience.
The rats are leaving the ship.
If even the Underwoods don’t want to be in Korea any longer, is it any wonder that so many other foreignors here feel the way they do?
Goes to show…you and your family can live here your entire life, for three or four generations even, but you can never be thought of as a “Korean”, or hardly even as a resident alien in the “green card” sense of the word.
You will always be an outsider, and if American, an increasingly unwelcome outsider.
Message from the Blue House to the Underwoods: “Yankees go home.”
Hi Hamel!
I believe I am the friend referred to here:
“Now, a good friend of mine - a man I respect very much and who has been here a long time, has argued that Koreans actually do accept outsiders if they see them making an effort to do their best to work hard and contribute to society.”
I guess that’s close enough to what I said but either way you’ve missed the point.
Furthermore I fail to see what all your comments about immigration in some other countries has to do with anything… countries have different histories and one cannot apply some uniform standard for judging what “accepting” is. And lets remember that most countries with “large segments of the population that are no more than 1 or 2 generations removed from a personal immigration story” completely slaughtered or displaced the pre-immigrant population, and that the people doing the welcoming of newcomers are descendents of other immigrants.
Korea needs to be thought of as a collection of tribes, and, given the clan system, it sorta is. It has only begun to change.
An example of a different style of “accepting” might be the film Dances With Wolves. It would be just as laughable to expect the Sioux tribe to have a Ministry of Immigration. But they took the orphaned white girl in and raised her as their own and later are similarly “welcoming” of the character “Dunbar” (and the Sioux have given actor Kevin Costner tribal membership as well). Note they do so entirely on their terms (!!!!), and you don’t see the white members of the tribe talking about multiculturalism or insisting on being called by their English names, for example, to assert their ethnic heritage as might be customary in communities filled with immigrants. They have to submit to a very uniform culture, one that lacks diversity, but are part of the community in a way that would not have been possible for a Sioux in white (immigrant) society at the time.
Korea is accepting of foreigners in that way. On its own terms, not based on standards set by countries that wiped out everything that existed previously and built strip malls on top (and I mean that metaphorically). The kind of foreigner I was talking about will speak close to excellent Korean and live his life as a regular member of the community, for example. Horace H. Underwood can’t even read Korean, which means he can’t write it either, and frankly when I saw him interviewed on television the other day the state of his spoken Korean was at various points painful to watch. It should be noted that the state of his Korean can only be the result of choice. He says what he has to and communicates, but one might call it “business Korean” for academics and for the most part it stops there, suggestion, perhaps, that in the course of his life it has not been spoken in his closest and most treasured relationships. (He has given the speech you are talking about dozens of times over the years, and he does it well.)
Everything he says about Korea is correct, of course, but he talks mostly about legal and structural issues, things that have improved rapidly over the last 15+ years and will continue to see improvement in the future. He’s especially right about how Koreans talk say “globalization” without it occurring to them that it’s a two way street, not just an export of Korean people, products, culture, and power. I myself am confident that it will become more of a two-way exchange naturally and by necessity, without there even needing to be a conscious change of thinking on the part of average Koreans.
“Message from the Blue House to the Underwoods: ?€œYankees go home.?€?”
Boy talk about insecurity…
So do you all want to be treated just like Koreans?
I bet the number of complaints would triple if that ever happened.
RE COMMENT: “Message from the Blue House to the Underwoods: ?€œYankees go home.?€? ”
Another fine example of the poorly placed comments coming from the foreign peanut gallery that are aimed at Roh.
I have known the Underwoods personally for many years and can tell you they have planned their retirement (”in a warm place where there is no snow,” to quote his wife) for over a decade.
?€œKoreans should accommodate foreign cultures as well as foreigners who would come to the country.”
Having lived in Korea, and now having Korean friends here in London, I have often found myself politely telling Koreans that they are fussy, intolerant or narrow-minded. Whether about people, food or music many Koreans do have a cultural arrogance that is a bit off-putting.
There are aspects of Korean culture that I love to bits, and I wouldn?€™t trade my experience in Korea for all the riches in the world. That is what is so great about the human experience. We can pick and choose things from different cultures, or when nothing suits just make our path. Ultimately, it is Koreans who stand to lose by shutting themselves away. They would do well to read this: http://www.solohq.com/Articles.....vism.shtml
Dear Friend,
thanks so much for your comments. I always look forward to them and they always make me reconsider my words. I like your analogy of Dances With Wolves (a movie I have not seen) and the Sioux indians acceptance of a white man entirely on their terms, as you put it.
The weakness I see with that comparison is that the Sioux during the 1860s were (to my limited knowledge) not remotely interested in trade with the outside world, globalisation, making the Sioux territories a hub of North America, branding a capital city with some daft logo to attract foreign tourists, enticing investors, exporting its culture to the world through movies and music, sending hundreds of thousands of students overseas for study each year and so on.
So while I readily concede the point that the situation for foreigners seeking to adapt and be accepted in Korea may have been quite similar to the Dances With Wolves movie in Korea up to the Park Jung-hee era, I really have to question whether that comparison has any relevance in this day and age.
Yes I take the point that many countries with histories of large immigration also involved a slaughter of their native populations, but I also find it odd that Korea can seek to be a member of the club of ‘developed countries’ without coming to grips with the fact that that means immigration from ‘less developed countries’. Japan is starting to think about that possiblity with an ageing population and a very poor birth rate. Even European countries which did not experience a wholesale wiping out of indigenous populations (or at least none within the historic era) experienced immigration and continue to.
Maybe Horace H. Underwood’s Korean ain’t too flash after all, but again, part of my argument was that when Koreans stop feeling a need to speak a foreign language (ie English) to every foreign-looking person they see, then perhaps it will no longer be so easy for foreigners to get by here so comfortably in this society without learning Korean.
Marmot–
I recommend this PBS documentary to all who wonder about the essence of discrimination:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...../view.html
Discrimination is in the eye of the beholder. While I empathize, I can’t agree with Horace’s point of view. This is Korea, take it or leave it.
aletheia — I didn’t write this post. You’ll notice the name of the author underneath the post title. When you see “Robert,” that’s mine. When you see “Hamel,” that’s the guest blogger.
Frankly, I’m not sure how far I’m willing to go with HHU. While I’m not quite sure what you mean by “discrimination is in the eye of the beholder,” I don’t believe Korea has to necessarily “accommodate foreign cultures.” In the end, it may very well do that, as economic realities require Korea to open itself up more and more to immigration, both of the skilled and unskilled varieties. Unless Korea is remarkably successful in assimilating those immigrants, the society will most likely end up at least tolerating some degree of multi-culturalism, although the degree of diversity and level to which that diversity is embraced by the society at large would most likely end up being determined by economic factors largely outside Korea’s (or any state’s ) control. Still, at the very least, you’d hope that immigrants conform to the basic social and cultural norms of the host nation, e.g. language.
My knowledge of Korean language may be minimal, but I do know Dr. Underwood well enough to know that he has no trouble whatsoever reading hangeul ~ I believe that it’s hanja that he doesn’t read fluently. There’s a world of difference there. And while *my* Korean might sound “painful”, as far as I can tell his is considered excellent. At Fulbright Korea/KAEC he communicated with all his staff and the faculty in Korean. . . hardly a man who can’t communicate well with the natives^^
This is a man who has spent virtually his entire life in Korea (less than a dozen years of his life were spent in the States, and never more than four years at a stretch), speaks Korean with a fair level of fluency, and has extensive family history in Korea. If anyone was in a position to be accpeted “on [Korean's] own terms” it would be him. So what’s your beef with Dr. U?
The following is something I wrote for the Gyeongsang University (Chinju) newspaper about five years ago. It is not great English, but it does seem relevant to the topic.
How to Become a Global-oriented University
My name is Gerry Bevers. I am an American that came to Gyeongsang National University (GSNU) five months ago to work in the Research Support Division, under the Office of Planning & Research in the University Administration Building. I think I was hired as part of a strategy to make GSNU a more global-oriented school. What I do for the university is write English correspondence and translate promotional brochures and other material. Right now I’m working on writing and translating the university’s Web site into English. But is being a global-oriented university just writing letters and translating your school’s promotional material into English? Many of you may think so, but I do not. Translating your material into English is just the start; to be a truly global-oriented university, you need to open up your university to foreign students and professors. Just sending GSNU students abroad is not enough.
I have a bachelor’s degree in Korean Language & Literature and a master’s degree in Business Admistration (MBA). I received my bachelor’s degree from the University of Hawaii at Manoa (UH), where the ethnic makeup of the student body is very diverse. Only 19% of the of the university’s 17,000 students are Caucasian. Of the remaining students 19% are Japanese, 15% are Filipino, 14% are Hawaiian or Part-Hawaiian, and 30% are of other ethnic groups, including Korean. The university faculty is 58% Caucasian, 19% Japanese, 10% Chinese/Korean, 4% Hawaiian or Part-Hawaiian, 2% Filipino, and 7% of other ethnic groups. The University of Hawaii is very proud of its ethnic diversity, as are a lot of other universities in the United States. They are proud because they know that an ethnically diverse university means that their students are exposed to a wider range of views and opinions and have a greater opportunity to expand their understanding of other countries and cultures.
Though the University of Hawaii is quite unique in its ethnic diversity, many American universities have a fairly good ethnic mix and a fair percentage of international students and visiting professors. I received my MBA from West Texas A&M University, which is a relatively small school with only 5,457 students. Nevertheless, that small Texas school has 138 international students, which is more than 2 % of the student body. By contrast, Gyeongsang National University, has more than 23,000 students, but only 7 international students. Many Koreans may not see that as a problem, but it would be an almost shameful statistic in the United States because it would imply that the students at GSNU are given only a very narrow view of the world.
What do you, as GSNU students, really know about people from other countries? Do you just know what you read in books or newspapers or see on TV? Or do you know about them from taking foreign language conversation classes with foreign instructors? Or maybe you know about them because one of your friends told you about his or her experience overseas. If you think you can know about foreigners in these ways, then ask yourselves these questions: “Can a foreigner really understand how we or other Koreans think or feel by reading about us in a book or watching a program on TV?” “Would we want foreigners to judge us or Koreans by what they read in Korean newspapers or see on American TV shows like ‘MASH’?” “Can a foreigner understand how we think and feel by simply studying our language?” “Would we want a foreigner to judge us or other Koreans based on a rude Korean taxi driver or a drunk Korean businessman they meet on the street?”
The fact is that the only way a foreigner can really understand you and other Koreans is to talk with you, study with you, and share the same problems and experiences with you. Likewise, that is the only way that you can really understand foreigners. American college students have more opportunities to meet, talk with, and hear the ideas and opinions of people from other countries because there are more international students in the US. It is hard to take a college course in the US without having at least one foreign student in the classroom. American students get a chance to hear foreign students’ opinions on different issues, which may be different from theirs and the professor’s.
No matter how neutral Korean college professors may try to be, they are still Korean and have, at the very least, an unconscious loyalty to their mother country. Even if they have lived and studied in other countries, they will still see and judge that country from a Korean’s point of view. They may think they are being neutral or even favorable to the foreign country, but their views may still be different from those of the natives of that country. Would you completely trust a foreign student studying in Korea to go back to his or her country and tell the people there what Korea and Koreans are really like? Is Korea that easy to understand?
Just sending GSNU students abroad as exchange students is not enough. If GSNU sends ten students abroad to study at one of its foreign exchange universities and the foreign exchange university sends only one student to GSNU, who do you think benefits more? I think the foreign university benefits more because the students at that university have ten GSNU students to talk with and learn about Korea from. If each of the GSNU exchange students makes ten friends at the foreign university, then 100 foreign students will learn about Korea and Koreans. But if the foreign exchange student at GSNU makes ten friends, than only ten GSNU students will learn about the foreign country. Of course, the exchange students will be talking to more people than just their friends, but so will the ten GSNU students that go to the the foreign university. If one frog leaves the well, then only that one frog learns about the outside world, but it one frog from the outside world jumps into the well, than many of the frogs in the well learn about the outside world.
The GSNU administration needs to develop, and the faculty needs to support, programs to encourage more foreign students and professors to come to the university. Until then, GSNU cannot call itself a truly global-oriented university, and you, as GSNU students, cannot truly call yourselves true Kaechukians because you are only talking to other frogs in your own little well.
Gerry,
That’s a great essay. Thanks for sharing.
wanna know why koreans hate you brothas? read gerry’s arrogant letter above.
i can just imagine how the posse would react if a korean sent such smug jibberish to harvard.
as if a prestigious school like snu is going to listen to an english ‘teacher’.
ps i like how gerry writes to a major korean university comparing koreans to frogs. that’ll get you points in korea! i do declare!
Marmot
“This is Korea, take it or leave it,” was not directed at you! It was meant as a general rhetorical point. I read the article yesterday in the paper. I know you didn’t write it.
I am a ??¸?? here in Korea, and I just think that in most cases discrimination is a personal judgement/feeling that can be sulked over and/or taken advantage of. When I first came to Korea someone gave me some good advice: “Sometimes xenophobia can work to your advantage.” Sometimes it hurts.
Good one, Gerry.
I would only add the advice given by Koreans to the allegedly ungrateful foreigners in Korea - If you don’t like it, Anon, why don’t you leave?
PS: Anon reminds me of the frisky Yen Jun.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of Gerry’s letter, the frog analogy is not an insult, just a reference to the Korean expression ??°??¼ ??? ?°œ??????, “frog in a well.” I believe it comes from a story in Zhuangzi (??????) about a frog who lives in a well and can’t fathom the wonders of the sea because he has never seen it. Koreans would not interpret this as a slight. Notice that Dr. Underwood used this expression as well.
I find this idea completely absurd. First of all, as a Korean American I face discrimination on almost a daily basis. ASIAN AMERICANS ARE NOT TREATED WELL AS A WHOLE. Unless you consider sexualized Female or Weak male media types as good and fair perception. Further most Americans DO NOT TRUST ASIANS in general, Asians are percieved as the perpetual foreigner. I support Koreans attempt to preserve their uniformity. This drive is what has preserved the Korean culture and identity througout the turmoil of the dynastic era. In any event, I don’t see much tolerance in Europe relative to Muslims. In fact most Europeans say they would much rather like to deport them. I think Europeans should be the least to talk about tolerance and multi-cultralism given the VAST history that shows how “tolerant” Europeans are to differnt peoples. I dare say that no other amalgam of peoples have comitted more crimes and have caused more suffering then those of European descent.
Further if you want to bitch about the lack of multi-cultralism go to Israel and spew your garbage. Israel even forbids certain relations (sexual or otherwise) with its foriegn workers (chinese for example) and the “indeginous” population.
And re the comment about the Underwoods being forced out by anti-Americanism, congratulations to jack sparrow for parroting the (North) Korean Central News Agency. One of their more humorous pieces from earlier this year:
KCNA Calls for End to U.S. History of Aggression on Korea
Pyongyang, May 25 (KCNA) — It is said that U.S. missionary Underwood
the Fourth whose Korean name is Won Kwang Han will leave south Korea this
fall. His great grandfather was dispatched to south Korea as a member of an
advance team for invading Korea under the cloak of U.S. missionary in 1885.
A member of the Underwood family which has left footsteps of crimes as a
stooge in executing the U.S. policy of aggression on Korea for four
generations is now going to be expelled from south Korea. This means that he
can no longer stay there in face of the sentiments of independence against
the U.S. rapidly growing among the south Koreans from all walks of life in
the wake of the publication of the historic June 15 North-South Joint
Declaration.
The Underwood family has acted guides and scouts in laying the foothold
of aggression under the mask of religion for nearly 120 years since it set
foot in Korea and it has been the chief criminal in spreading the idea of
worship towards and fear of the U.S. and disseminating the U.S.-style
culture among the south Koreans.
As well known, U.S. missionaries including the Underwood’s, till they
were expelled with the outbreak of the Pacific War, craftily defended the
Japanese imperialists’ policy of occupation of Korea and systematically
carried out preparations to put Korea under the U.S. control in the future.
This is evidenced by the fact that Underwood the Second held the post of an
adviser to the U.S. Military Government which the U.S. imperialists set up
to establish a colonial rule after occupying south Korea with the defeat of
the Japanese imperialists in 1945. To cap it all, this man took up the post
of an adviser to the U.S. side which led to the collapse of the Soviet-U.S.
Joint Committee when the issue of establishing a provisional democratic
government in Korea was laid before it soon after the liberation of Korea.
The Underwood family has resorted to sly tricks to create the
impressions that it has rendered a sort of service to the Koreans with
pretty phrases about religion and education, going around under such Korean
names as Won Tu U, Won Han Gyong and Won Kwang Han.
The pro-U.S. conservative forces in south Korea captive to the idea of
worship towards the U.S. have expressed sympathy with it and are now showing
regret at the expulsion of the Underwood the Fourth.
But this is nothing but fraud, hypocrisy and foolish self-deception of
the master and the servant for concealing their true colors. The ugly
records of the Underwood family are the epitome of the U.S. history of
aggression on Korea. The crimes committed by it against the Koreans
generation after generation can never be forgiven. They will remain as
disgraceful records.
It is time the U.S. imperialist aggression troops were made to leave
south Korea just as the Underwood family, the scout of aggression.
The south Korean people should force the U.S. troops to pull out at an
early date and drop the curtain on the U.S. history of aggression on Korea.
Aaron, if you are who I think you are I’m miffed that you’ve beat me to the punch with that article TWICE in a public forum. If you’re not my Aaron . . .well, then I suppose my feelings would run to mortification.
Anon,
First, you say, “as a Korean American I face discrimination on an almost a daily basis.” Then you say, “I support Koreans’ attempt to preserve their uniformity.”
Do you “support Koreans’ attempt to preserve their uniformity” because you enjoy being discriminated against in the United States and think that it is something that foreigners living in Korea should also be able to enjoy? Or do you support it because you feel remorse for your and your family’s attempt to infect US society with your foreignness and want to make sure Korea does not make the same mistake America did when she let you and your family immigrate?
“Do you ?€œsupport Koreans?€™ attempt to preserve their uniformity?€? because you enjoy being discriminated against in the United States and think that it is something that foreigners living in Korea should also be able to enjoy? Or do you support it because you feel remorse for your and your family?€™s attempt to infect US society with your foreignness and want to make sure Korea does not make the same mistake America did when she let you and your family immigrate?”
No I make no qualms that I think Eurpeans are the cancer of the world. I support my people becasue racism is a social reality, even if it may have no biological relevance. In terms of the United States, I hope your happy to know that I do utilize every resrouce I can in bettering myself. I aknowledge at this point in human development the West has more capital then any one permutation of coutnries in Asia. Thus it is a superior product at this point. Just as Europeans in in the not to distant past (prior to the supposed “rennaisance”) knew nothing of anything and digested technology and thought from Arabia and Asia, so are peoples today doing the same with the West. But I’m sure you already knew that…
“I support Koreans attempt to preserve their uniformity. This drive is what has preserved the Korean culture and identity througout the turmoil of the dynastic era.” Ah, yes–the uniformity of the Three Kingdoms era, when Shilla enlisted Tang China to destroy Paekche and Koguryo…or do you mean Chosun, which had a caste system of yangban, indentured peasant farmers and slaves? Or maybe you’re thinking of the pre-Korean War period, when Koreans killing Koreans led to full-scale civil war. This was certainly a history of “preserving” your culture… “I dare say that no other amalgam of peoples have comitted more crimes and have caused more suffering then those of European descent.” Umm, yeah, if you set aside the “amalgams” that produced Mao, Pol Pot and the father-and-son tag team killers in North Korea, to name only a few. You needs some book learnin’ there son!
Actaully Korean history was fairly uniform with respect to culture. It was uniform in the sense that the citizens had a identity based on a common history. Had they not had this will then Koreans would have been assimilated long ago. In any event, with respect to this,
“Umm, yeah, if you set aside the ?€œamalgams?€? that produced Mao, Pol Pot and the father-and-son tag team killers in North Korea, to name only a few. You needs some book learnin?€™ there son!”
I’m pretty sure quantitatively speaking, the Europeans have caused many many more times grief upon pretty much everyone in the world. Lets think for a moment, Europeans have
1. Extermainted virtually the entire population of North America
2. Wiped out many of the indeginous populations of South America and then bastardized maany more robbing them of any clear identity
3. Perpetuated the largest forced human emmigration (I.E. the African Slave Trade of the 1600 - 1800s)
4. Killed 4 million people in Vietnam (to preserve “Freedom” i.e. Jingoistic European social theory garbage)
Thats just a small picking from a very very large cross section of fun things the Europeans have done in their tenure as the formost powers in the world. Europeans are the only people to have attempted to systematically colonize other lands and then displace/exterminate the original inhabitants. One needs to only look at the digusting manifistation of European colonialism in New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, and Israel to name a few to show what the Euroepans really wanted to do if they had the power.
What “common history”? If your grandfather went to North Korea, and your uncle stayed in the South, all they have in common is conflict, not “culture,” which was my point. You’ve been brainwashed from a young age into the “uri nara” thing, and it comes out in your racist attitudes toward non-Koreans (which makes it laughable and typical that you’re “bettering yourself” in the U.S.–better hang onto that “uniformity,” those Americans tend be pretty individualistic!). I despise the history of oppression by “Europeans” but have to say that centuries of self-oppression and massacres of one’s own people (i.e., pre-war Korea, China, N. Korea, Vietnam) is nothing to brag about either.
When I say bettering myself I mean I am using the resources in the country to do something useful. Racism obviouslly dosn’t impede someone to become profecient at something, if it had Europeans would sitll be beating each other with clubs and picking off lice from each other for a snack. In any event, I admit to being racists for the simple fact that it would be disadvantageous to not be (since everyone else is racists). In any event I don’t hate anyone who sin’t Koreans. I have nothing wrong with Arabs or Persians. Nor do I have problems with Africans or Mexicans to name a few. Since all these people are on the same boat (namely they have a common enemy of Europe and its Colonial remenents). It should only be natural that they have some cooperation with each other.
Oh further,
” I despise the history of oppression by ?€œEuropeans?€? but have to say that centuries of self-oppression and massacres of one?€™s own people ”
Yes, self oppression and massacres, which Europe is completely devoid off…. hrmmmm,
1. The Massacre of Germans against Jews
2. All of 20th century history of the Balkans
3. Stalinism
4. France’s “democratic” revolution in the mid
1700s
5. Catholic Inquistions ….
etc. etc. etc.
Europeans have perfected the art of cruelty. For one thing Europeans seem to forget that they are probably the most atricious people on this planet. I admit only one thing good that came out of Europe and that is the modern sciences…. Unfortunatly, just because your the first to develop something dosn’t mean you’ll be the best (at least for long).
“those Americans tend be pretty individualistic!”
From what I observe the average American is blindly follows a set of axioms known as “common sense” which is what creates their chualvenism and racism. I don’t see their “individualism” unless the fact that American citizens dont’ all wear the same clothes and listen to the same music…. Americans are no more individaulistic then anyone else in any other country. If you can state a convincing case of American intellectual individualism (i.e. non-trite indivdualism) then I would most certainly be pleased to hear it.
Further if you want to bitch about the lack of multi-cultralism go to Israel and spew your garbage. Israel even forbids certain relations (sexual or otherwise) with its foriegn workers (chinese for example) and the ?€œindeginous?€? population.
“Israel” doesn’t forbid sexual relations between Chinese and Israelis. One Israeli company made its Chinese foreign workers sign a contract that would prevent them from engaging in said activity, a contract that would most likely be thrown out in court if the matter were ever pressed. There is a huge difference between saying “Company A” forbids sexual relations between certain ethnic groups and “State A” forbids sexual relations between certain ethnic groups.
Anyway, I really don’t wish to get into an argument over which ethnic group or “race” has caused more suffering historically or whether Europeans were the only ones to “systematically colonize other lands and then displace/exterminate the original inhabitants.” I tend to agree that Europeans have been responsible for more suffering quantitatively (although what this means exactly is not as clear as it might initially seem, as you have to factor in things like the ever increasing global population and improvements in the recording of statistics), and I most certainly disagree with the claim that the Europeans are the only group that has systematically colonized other lands and displaced/exterminated indigenous populations, unless you’re going to define “colonize” as “imperialism” as defined in the Marxist sense, in which case you might be right, but would make the statement rather meaningless as it would exclude all other forms of state expansionism not resulting from dynamics within capitalist societies (e.g., the Mongols, Turks, Arabs, Zulus, etc). Anyway, like I said, i don’t really wish to argue it in this thread, as it’s not really relevant to Hamel’s post.
What is relevant, however, is that fact that unlike what some might think, i.e., this is a question of mostly white expats who had never experienced being targets of racism in their own societies bitching about Korean xenophobia, the issue at hand is one that really doesn’t affect white folk in Korea per say. Most of us are NOT immigrants here — we are short term expats who do not expect, nor are expected, to integrate into society. Besides, being white in Korea is a complex thing — yes, we’re treated differently, and yes, some things can be annoying, but we also have the advantage of being from wealthy societies and are treated with what some might argue excessive respect simply for being melanin deficient. At the risk of sounding like a flaming leftist here, I think is should be obvious that international power relations do impact social and even interpersonal relations, at least to some extent. The issue of immigration and cultural tolerance in Korea is one more aptly applied to workers coming in mostly from other Asian nations, because those are the people who are coming and will continue to come to Korea in greater numbers looking to make a better life for themselves. And if there is anyone who sharply feels the nastier side of Korean racisim, it’s them, not the white expat. I do want to keep this in perspective — Korea has opened up quite a bit in a short period of time, and the fact that many would be concerned about about the cultural impact of, let’s say, mass immigration from China or Vietnam might have on Korean society is not only natural, but fully understandable. As I said in a previous comment, I think the issue will largely be resolved by the economic realities of the globalized economy and Korea’s rapidly aging population, both of which will encourage (if not force) Korean society to accept increasing numbers of immigrants, and thus probably leading to some accomodations for greater cultural diversity. That hasn’t proven to be an easy process anywhere, however, and there’s no reason to think it should be any easier here.
Anonymous Kyopo:
“When I say bettering myself I mean I am using the resources in the country to do something useful.”
If the environment you’re in were as racist as you claim, you wouldn’t have access to those resources in the first place. There are many other points to make, but…why? When the hormones are flowing, there’s got to be an outlet for the tension. Whether that outlet is skydiving, or hating “Europeans,” it’s got to happen in one way or another, for sure.
Racism is here to stay. It’s displayed in varying degrees by all peoples who claim to have some grand and glorious past, but nowhere at present is it as celebrated and welcomed as it is in Korea.
URI NARA MANSE!!!
The notion that a color, a nation, or a common history makes us better, brighter, wiser, or nobler than any other group picked at random is almost as stupid, misguided, and false, as organized religion, but few seem to notice.
This is especially idiotic when the common color, culture, or history is factually inaccurate, and contrived. As if Koguryo, Shilla, Baekjae, and Kaya peoples would have ever admitted to having anything in common.
In short, we’re all fooked.
Evil White Oppressor:
Excuse me, but as I told Kimbob and Mankyongdae, I am off this blog for a while. I haven’t read your version of history, but will after this week, and get back to you.
In the meantime, happy swimming in that Florida/Mississippi creek.
See you later, alligator.
Well, the above has certainly been great reading. Historically what H.U. stated was pretty much what everyone stated during the period of time that I study. Racism! Jack London is the favorite poster-child for Koreans as being a racist, but if you compare his writing it is no different than what everyone else was writing at the same time - including the Korea-philes (sp?) who, in their personal letters, wrote pretty much the samething that most of the other visitors did.
I have been here for a great number of years. I think that my spoken Korean is fairly good (my reading/writing suffers from a lack of attention and dedication). I agree with some of the writers that many Koreans will take you in to their collective fold, but, to be honest, it is an exception to the rule. The only thing I could even say that might make it understandable to the Westerners who have been here for some time is that “Chong” develops and naturally you are accepted into your little group. One of the writers noted that Korea is like a group of clans forming the greater state, (and surprisingly some people took offense at it) and to me that is a fairly good description. There have always been these circles of relationships and regionalisms - all through Korean history. I read about it all the time in the letters and writings from that period. True, my sources are Western, but if they are noticing it that easily it must have been pretty obvious (considering most of these people did not speak Korean). You still see it.
Is Korea more racist now than when I first arrived? I don’t know. I think that you won’t see many children trying to rub the color off of a person with darker skin, and I am sure that the often-spoken about tale of “Black Americans” growing tails after midnight, would merely be scoffed at now, but there are some areas where it has grown worse. Koreans tend to treat the third world nations in a fairly poor way considering that only thirty-forty years ago, Korea was roughly in the same place. While traveling abroad I have often encountered Koreans and listened to them talk amongst themselves in Korean about their host country (not that we Americans don’t - God, I have been busted so many times for it, and you would think that I would have learned by now) in the most unflattering terms. America, of course, is always a favorite country to hate, and speak ill of. Yet, the number of Koreans seeking to live there and in the other evil Western countries is growing annually. Someone said that the rats are deserting the ship - not sure I would call H.U. and his family rats, but you do see a lot of Koreans abandoning the country for great opportunities elsewhere.
I do have a concern on that - the former member of American intelligence who was convicted of spying for the Korean Government (passing documents to Korean Intelligence officers) and spent a couple of years in an American prison is basically viewed as a hero in Korea. What if Robert Halley (sp?) was convicted of stealing (borrowing) documents while working in one of the Korean Ministries and gave them to the United States. Should he be convicted and jailed in Korea as a spy? He gave up his American citizenship and accepted Korean citizenship (some of my friends have done this), but will he ever be accepted as a “real” Korean and not just some “curiosity”?
There is a desire in Korea for globalization, and many claim that Korea doesn’t understand that it is a two way street. I think that to a great degree Korea does understand it. To use another “frog” in the story, the French (couldn’t help it - frog) are struggling to keep their own language and culture in an English-speaking world (global language), why shouldn’t Korea strive to keep its own? I think that it is good that Korea tries to maintain its culture, but as Marmot said - it will have to make some allowances, and it has. I think that some of the racism that we Westerners see is actually pretty harmless and more curiousity and difference of culture than intentional disrespect - however, there is a lot of that too.
A lot of people blame the youth for the increased racism, but I disagree (although anon, the anti-Western/European who is doing the same thing in our culture that he accuses the West of doing in Africa and Asia - using it for his own selfish and personal gains - appears to be one of the young mavericks), I think it is the middle-aged group, those who are in thier 30s-40s. They didn’t go through what their parents did under the Japanese occupation or the war afterwards so they can not understand the period. They are not like the youth of today who understand the world has become smaller and the borders and cultures have become blurred through technology. They are the group that is lost - trying to hold on to something that they don’t really understand (their culture up to the 1960s) and unable to adapt and lost in a world that is scary to them - a world of uncertainty. Just playing the on-line game Lineage tonight I was surprised at all of these middle-aged Korean men trying to find “Chinese” players in the game so that they could kill them.
About the only thing I really agreed with anon’s post is that racism exist everywhere. Unfortunately instead of trying to do something about it - he seems set on trying to make it worse, and can’t seem to recognize himself as his own enemy.
I think that Korea is an interesting and good place to live and study. I think the most important thing for anyone living here is to just roll with the punches and like one writer mentioned - the racism card can be played by both players. Being a Westerner in Korea has it advantages and disadvantages, if you weigh them and determine that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, then perhaps it is time to move on.
A superior inferiority complex
P.S. Sorry about the long post - especially at three in the morning.
Marmot-
I think is [sic] should be obvious that international power relations do impact social and even interpersonal relations, at least to some extent.
Good observation.
Marmot, I agree it is silly to talk about what “race” has been the “worst.” But I would like to inform Yen Jun, aka “Anon,” of a few things:
1) Arabs were HUGE slave traders.
2) Arabs exterminated and displaced the millions of racially “Mediterranean-European” people (leftover from the Roman Empire) in the North of Africa and Spain and Sicily in the 7th century. Not to mention all the other peoples they got rid of in the Middle East. It wasn’t always uniformily Arab, you know.
3. Arabs are continuing both these practices in the Sudan TODAY.
How are you not “angry” at those “evil” arabs? How about the Mexicans:
1) The Mexican Empire conquered Central America in the 1830’s and subjugated/robbed its people.
2) 5 Central American countries eventually won independence, but the bit of Mexico north of Gautemala was never given its autonomy back. Hence the Zapatista guerillas in Chiapas today.
See those “evil” Mexicans are oppressing people even today! The Persians:
1) Aside from trying to invade Greece in the 5th and 6th centuries BC, they dominated the Middle East before the rise of Islam.
2) Iran funds suicide bombers in Israel and bankrolls Syria’s occupation of Lebanon (oppression). They also support Hezbollah launching rockets at Israeli towns.
How are you not angry at the Persians?! Africans:
1) There is a war in the Congo today that has gone on for 5+ years. No one knows how many people died, but the best guess is 3.5 million. Rwanda, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Burundi, and others have intervened to keep the conflict going.
2) Africa has had lots of genocidal/crazy leaders over the past 50 years. Idi Amin in Uganda, murdered and exiled all the Indians from the country. Charles Taylor, though recently deposed, funded rebels across East Africa - the most famous one was the rebellion in Sierra Leone in which tens of thousands of people had arms or legs chopped off with machetes.
3) These African bloody wars are a continuation of tribal violence that has gone on… forever?
4) Africa was “better off under colonialism” according to Thabo Mbeki’s brother this week. He talks about how the African leaders are much crueler than the Europeans, and how living standards have collapsed since the Europeans left. Africa was actually richer 50 years ago in real terms! Read it on the BBC’s website.
Those insidious Africans! Of course its a gross oversimplification to refer to them as “Africans” because they have tribal/national identities. The myth of African harmony exists only in the minds of Marxists like yourself. China:
1) The Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Thailand are dominated (some say oppressed) by Chinese business elites.
2) China forced all the countries around it into submission and tributary relationships, until those evil Europeans came around.
3) Tibet and Uighur-stan (aka Xinjaing). Need I say more?
And so on. Do you realize how ridiculous it is to say the Europeans are the cardinal force for evil on this planet. First off, talking about Europeans is loony because if you go back 2000 years, theres no conception of “Europe” or “races.” We could talk about the crimes of the Mongols, the Huns, the Tartars, the Vandals, the Goths, the Vikings, the Irish (exterminated the indigenous race of Scotland, the Picts), the Saxons, the Romans, the Gauls, the Aryans, the Aztecs (those thousands of human sacrifices a day festivals), the North American Indians and their incessant tribal wars and massacres…
AND SO ON.
Bottom line: Every group of people in history has done bad things, many have done REALLY bad things. Not all of these “evil” groups had white skin - not by a long shot. “Europeans” obviously did many bad things too. But, I don’t hate ANYONE for what happened centuries ago, like you do. I am friends with Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and Africans. You’re over simplifying the world into “evil White people vs everyone else as innocent” is just wrong and it pisses me off.
You are DEAD WRONG if you think every other “race” or group has been innocent or even “much more innocent” than Europeans. Its stupid and historically uninformed.
PS - More people died on 9/11 than died in the Spanish Inquisition.
I forgot to include the Persian and Turkish turns at domination of Central Asia. Oh, and I shouldve made a list of Turkey’s “crimes” but I wont bore you with them.
EvilWhiteMaleOppersor,
Unfortunatly you seem to confuse me with someone else, no matter, I don’t doubt there are a whole lot of people that view the cancerous Europeans as a threat to humanity.
In any event, onwards…
” Iran funds suicide bombers in Israel and bankrolls Syria?€™s occupation of Lebanon (oppression). They also support Hezbollah launching rockets at Israeli towns.”
Since Israel is a manifistation of European colonialism I find it no differnt from when the natives of America were valiantly attempting to push back the tide of evil from the West.
“Arabs were HUGE slave traders”
But it was the Europeans who claimed the title of the GREATEST slave traders. Furthermore, I’d like to know how you qualitatively compare the European’s form of slavery to Arabs…. Whereas the latter … Well lets just say Europeans treat other people who people will one day treat the Europeans… (and rightfully so )
Let us quote a source….
“The idea of slavery did not have exactly the same associations in Muslim societies as in the countries of North and South America discovwered and peopled by the nations of western Europe from the sixteeenth century onwards. Slavery was a status recognized by Islamic law. According to the law, a free born muslim could not be enslaved: Slaves were non-Muslims, captured in war or otherwise procured, or else the children of slave parents and born in slavery. They did not possese the full legal rights of fre men, but the shari’a laid down that tthey should be treated with justice and kindeness; it was ameritorious act to liberate them. The relationship of master and slave could be a close one, an dmight continuet ot exist after sthe slave was freed: he might marry his master’s daughter or conduct his buisness for him…” (History of the ARab Peoples, P. 116)
So in essence, Muslims wern’t vile racists that felt superior (inherently) to their slaves. Europeans weere the first to create a philosophy of “divinely” inspired hatred against their “slaves”.
“See those ?€œevil?€? Mexicans are oppressing people even today”
Please elaborate…….
I shall not comment to much about AFrica since I have never read a book about this continent…. however,
“Africa was ?€œbetter off under colonialism?€? according to Thabo Mbeki?€™s brother this week. He talks about how the African leaders are much crueler than the Europeans, and how living standards have collapsed since the Europeans left. Africa was actually richer 50 years ago in real terms! Read it on the BBC?€™s website.”
The problem with Africa was that their nations were forced to abide by a nation state organization that was IMPOSED by them from the colonial era. Unfortunatly rarely did a nation state encompass “naturally” coherent social structures (i.e. tribe A hates tribe B in nation 1 and normally wouldn’t be together but tribe A and B are in teh same country because some European adminstrator thought it would be useful to do that for adminstrative purposes), Hence we get suprise suprise Civil War… in fact the highest amount of civil wars correspond to the areas that Europe gripped the most (notice the relative lack of it in Asia, since it was never completly dominated by Western forces. However, if we notice where did war break out? in the borders between India and China… and why? SUPRSISE AGAIN, the Indians were claiming a border that was established by none other hten the beneveloent and divinely inspired British…..
“Marxists like yourself”
I suppose its your feeble mind using the much touted “common sense” that allows you to make the assumption that I am a marxists… unfortunatly you are mistaken.
With respect to China’s former “colonial rule.” This is an intresting use of the nomenclature. Choson became a tributaroy as it became weak (much like how Mexico is a “tributoary to the US.” I don’t recall any incidious or otherwiswe malicious activity on the part of the Chinese relative to the Koreans ore Vietanmese. But this case may exist, if it does please enligthen me off it so that I may check it out myself.
You see from my understanding, China has had many times could have endevaoured on a large colonail expansion. For instance, in the Ming, Zhen Ho had a fleet of some 4000 - 5000k vessels (equipped with cannon and carrying 20k soldiers equipped with firearms, since it is a common misconceptino to think that China did not develop these technologies) and traveleted the old Arab trade routes to East Africa. In fact, given the size of the fleet with the superiority of the weapons, the Chinese could have carved up a very nice empire….. BUT THEY DIDNT. Leave it to those barbarians from the Western periphary to do that….
So anyways, when the Mongols creatd their emprie…. FROM MY UNDERSTANDING…. they didn’t impose any administrative burdens at ALL. No major resource shifts not exploitation, they were content of having ‘tributes.’ I guess if you believe giving ‘tribute’ equal to or worst then resource (both physical & labor) exploitation, your argument is valid. But it is obvious that the great mass of cases in comparing “European” and “Other” empires shows that the cruelty is balanced towards the former rather then then latter…..
“and unable to adapt and lost in a world that is scary to them - a world of uncertainty. ”
Unfortunatly I am not part of the 30-40’s group. Many younger and marginalized Asians and the Asian diaspora realize the wrongs of the world….
“Every group of people in history has done bad things, many have done REALLY bad things. Not all of these ?€œevil?€? groups had white skin - not by a long shot. ?€œEuropeans?€? obviously did many bad things too. But, I don?€™t hate ANYONE for what happened centuries ago, like you do. I am friends with Arabs, Persians, Mexicans and Africans. You?€™re over simplifying the world into ?€œevil White people vs everyone else as innocent?€? is just wrong and it pisses me off.”
Oh I forget why should you hate African or Hispanic people for what they did in the past? I mean suppose you did, but for what reasons? Because neither of these 2 groups have ever invaded or massacred Europe/Europeans. Further, the Persians did attempt to invade Greece, I don’t know the circumstances of that so I won’t comment. But from my understanding short of the Moores brief reign in Spain, Arabs have not commited crimes agaisnt Europe that would be anywhere NEAR comparable to the stuff the Europeans did to the Arabs or Turks, such as the Crusades, Colonial wars/rule…. I think even if you did hate somebody it wouldn’t be warrented, since it would be like hating the poor person, whose house you just stole. The poor person will obviouslly have justification but you don’t, unless you hate htem just because their poor… I suppose in this sense if you hated them you would hate them just because they were muslim/arab whatever rather then some barbaric and criminal act that was perpetrated by them…. I suppose this is the difference, the rest of the world hates teh West because of her crime, the West hates teh rest of the world because they are differnt.
Yen Jun, you are so full of garbage it would waste hours to refute you. A few points:
- The Moors “brief reign” in Spain lasted 700 years.
- 1178 the Battle of Menzikert - Turks ALMOST conquered the Constantinople. This is what sparked the Crusades. You see the Byzantine empire appealed to help from the West, and in 1195, Pope Urban II called for Crusades. Crusades were a response. If you deny that Muslims were swallowing up “christian lands” you are just mistaken.
- In the 17th century the Ottoman Empire was laying siege to Vienna. Muslims trying to conquer Christians in the age of European Imperialism, can you believe it?
- The word for “slave” and “black” is the same in Arabic - “abed.” Does that sound to you like free arabs thought themselves equal to black Africans? And why is the government of Sudan murdering black christians AND black muslims TODAY if they’re all one big happy family?
- Look up the word “dhimmi” on google and you’ll find out how arabs treat foreigners living within the umma.
- Arabs (and Muslim Africans) also held hundreds of thousands of WHITE SLAVES. One of the rationales for the war against the Barbary coast pirates (in the early 19th century), was the Europeans and US getting sick of having their citizens captured and enslaved by Islamic pirates. You can find a reference to this in Voltaire’s ‘Candide’ - Candide’s gf, Cunegonde, is kept as a sex slave by the muslim pirates.
- Mexico is oppressing people. Virtually the whole Yucatan penninsula was a separate country before 1830. Because Mexico kept these lands back then, they are fighting a rebellion there today. Look up the word “Zapatista” on the google. Look up “Mexican Empire” while you’re at it.
- Central Americans HATE Mexicans. Again, just like you think Africans are a big happy family, you mistakenly think all Hispanics are best friends. Theyre NOT. If you knew any history of Latin America this would be so obvious. But you don’t.
- The Dominican Republic and Haiti share an island and they despise eachother. You see the Dominicans are still bitter that the Haitians held them as slaves after they won independence from France. Blacks holding other blacks and whites as slaves, can you believe it!?
- About China - You ever eat “General Tsao’s Chicken”? General Tsao put down a muslim rebellion in 1867-1873 and killed hundreds of thousands of muslims. Sound like enlightened anti-Imperialism to you?
- While we’re talking about General Tsao, why don’t you google “Taiping Rebellion” for info on another Chinese bloodbath.
- China tried to conquer Vietnam in 1979.
- Mongols forced the Korean King to live in Beijing. The Koreans then happily helped the Mongols try to invade and conquer Japan. Their efforts were thwarted by a “Kamikaze” - “god wind” or hurricane. The Mongols oppressed the Koreans and then the Koreans tried to join up with them to oppress the Japanese. Those Asiatics are so much more humanitarian than we evil Europeans!
You have a cartoonish understanding of history. I have known asians like you who blame the white man for everything and eagerly await the day when they can oppress the white man.
Not bloody likely.
Dear Hamel,
Korea can be a very forbidding and outright rude place. The tourists are often teased in the streets, and then foreingers who’ve been here for years get treated like tourists.
That doesn’t prove Michael Breen’s declaration that “Korean’s never let you into the ‘inner group’”, or whatever it was exactly. And when I say that Koreans can be surprisingly accepting of foreigners, I mean you’d be indeed be surprised given what you experience in day to day interaction with the general Korean public, especially if the foreigner in question looks particularly exotic. Korea and Koreans can be very accepting despite the fact little kids might tease you on the subway.
I think the Sioux/tribal analogy is works because it is an example of how things are, or have been. You are saying it’s not a valid comparison, but then you talk about something else, namely what Korea should be, what it needs to be doing in order to be “interested in trade with the outside world, globalisation… …branding a capital city with some daft logo to attract foreign tourists, enticing investors… …and so on.”
You’re right, of course, but you’re still arguing about the way you perceive things need to be from now on, and when I say what I say I’m talking about the way things have been until now.
My point about a certain someone’s style of Korean is that it is very professional Korean. Many foreigners who speak Korean in the workplace can speak “business Korean” and have professional relationships in it, but the limitations of the Korean they speak suggests that for whatever reason and perhaps not even by intention they have kept Korea at a little bit of a distance, kept it in the professional spheres of their lives. There’s nothing wrong with that, but keeping the Korean side of your life compartmentalized will guarantee Korean society keeps the same distance.
BTW, the “hubs” of Singapore and Hong Kong seem to get by without “cultures of immigration.” But both can be very welcoming of tourists and not let the outsider into that “inner group.”
“The Moors ?€œbrief reign?€? in Spain lasted 700 years.”
I’m sorry I guess they held on to their trash for longer then I thought.
“1178 the Battle of Menzikert - Turks ALMOST conquered the Constantinople. This is what sparked the Crusades. You see the Byzantine empire appealed to help from the West, and in 1195, Pope Urban II called for Crusades. Crusades were a response. If you deny that Muslims were swallowing up ?€œchristian lands?€? you are just mistaken.”
LOL… I could also say the Pope wanting to find an excuse to open trade routes was the reason or uniting the Christendom (i.e. giving the animal barbarians somethign else to kill other then themselves) for political reasons was a reason as well. Of course I’m sure the pope had only sincere purposes. Further I am so sure that all 10 crusades were in response to the attack on byzantinum……
“In the 17th century the Ottoman Empire was laying siege to Vienna. Muslims trying to conquer Christians in the age of European Imperialism, can you believe it?”
Lets speak about the Ottomon Empire…. the Ottomon Empire
1. Recognized Jewish Communities
2. Recognized Christian Communities
3. Preserved the “rule of Law” in theri communities
4. Allowed Regional administrative repulicanism
When the Ottomans did cease Constantinople and other European cities, they preserved the churches and allowed worship (I understand they changed some of the churches….). Further, when the “civilized” people of Europe decided to kill Jews for no reason, guess who took them as refuge? thats right… the Ottomons.
In any event, the Ottomon wars of the 15th and 17th century were mainly a war to maintain trade access in the mediterranian. Further it can be shown that aggression between the Ottomon Empire and Christendom is a direct result of Christian barbarism and invasions in Arabia.
“The word for ?€œslave?€? and ?€œblack?€? is the same in Arabic - ?€œabed.?€? Does that sound to you like free arabs thought themselves equal to black Africans? And why is the government of Sudan murdering black christians AND black muslims TODAY if they?€™re all one big happy family?”
No if you paid attention and had adequate reading comprehension you would have noticed I said they never thought of themselves as “INHERENTLY SUPERIOR” from all the books I have read by Arab historians (all of which teach in the US) the Arabs did not treat their slaves like some kind of inhuman beast to be worked day and night. I suppose you completely ignored my quote from a respected book and professor of the subject. I suppose its just the bias of those “dirty arabs.” I’m sure we should read authors of European descent to get a better and more unbiased view of Arab history.
Further I doun’t doubt Arabs hate Europeans now and in the 20th century in general and they treat them like the trash they are. It is however noted by many historians that the Ottomons and previous Muslim societies did respect and allow the practice of the differing religions. I’m sure however, that “respect’ is not good enough for the Europeans. After all, they should be treated beyond the notion of ordinary respect.
“Arabs (and Muslim Africans) also held hundreds of thousands of WHITE SLAVES”
LOL I don’t have time to look this up now, however, I am happy to hear that some other civilization put the Europeans where they belong (namely in the gallows of ships and the basements of factories). Thank you for telling me about this I shall look forward to reading it.
Further I don’t claim to be a student of history. I have read however enough history to know that Europeans are animals in general. I note you completly ignore my points on China, specifically how they didn’t behave like ravenous trolls on the hunt for rape and blood, even though they had the power. Further when I take a brief survey of all the wars China was involved with and i compare it to all the wars the Europeans were involved with….. well, lets just say European people must really like to be dirty and bloody. Further, the Mongols did attempt to attack Japan. Further Japan attemptepd to invade Korean durring the Imjin Wars. Whats intresting though is that Korea and Japan arn’t involved in too many further conflicts other then those…. Until the Superior White man comes to the continent of course…. I shall also give you that the Japanese behaved very European (that is like barbaric animals). I’m very sure this was a learned behavior after their “get out of Asia” campaign.
“China tried to conquer Vietnam in 1979″
Uhm… this was not a war of conquest, it was completly political. To point something else out, durring the Sino-Indian war of 62′ the Chinese COULD have continued and swept up more terriotory. However, the Chiense politial body decided that they had proven their point and withdrew. I wonder if Europeans would have done the same? I doubt it… most likelly a colonial adminstration wuld have been setup….. don’t you think?
“Mongols forced the Korean King to live in Beijing.”
What i find humerous is your lack of ACTUAL crimes commited by the the Mongols against the Koreans or any other Asian nation relative to the other. I know that crimes have been comited. HOwever, the infreqeuncy of these crimes and the severity of the crimes that occured in Europe amongst themselves and with others shows very little comparsion….
“I have known asians like you who blame the white man for everything and eagerly await the day when they can oppress the white man.”
Don’t worry EvilWhiteMaleSLAVE the day will come when you or one of your descendents are shining our boots and licking Arab, Asian, or African spit from the ground. It is inevitble.
Great, great stuff. Much too much to comment to. As a non-Christian, however, I would like to tip my hat to the Underwoods and other early missionaries who through their study and writings essentially opened up Asia to understanding by the west. My initial view of this group was more akin to those missionaries potrayed in James A. Michener’s “Hawaii”. I saw them as narrow minded “crackers” with a few months in divinity school, proudly thumping their bibles. To my surprise, I discovered that some arrived with real degrees (i.e., in other than theology, or its modern counterpart, social sciences) from real universities, and set about investigating the histories, cultures, and languages of the countries they resided in. I seriously doubt that the state of western knowledge of Asia would be where it is today without their efforts. Even “Anon”, for all his vituperive comments, has slipped through a door that they cracked open. May he some day recognize that.
Also for Anon: Concerning “Frogs” and common sense. Victor Hugo once noted that common sense was gained in spite of (formal) education, and not because of it.
p.s. My apologies to offended social scientists.
Oh EvilWhiteMaleSLAVE I just noted that you again referred to me as someone else, Unfortunatly I am not “yen jun.” However, it seems our ranks are growing if others have voiced similiar statements of truth.
Your version of history is incredibly ridiculous, Yen Jun. You sound like a Berkeley grad in Communist Studies. But, for your benefit, I’ll point out a few of the glaring mistakes, so you can sound slightly more intelligent next time you rant:
- There were more than 10 Crusades. Some of them involved Northern Europe. One of them involved sacking Constantinople.
- Your 1st and 2nd points about the Ottoman Empire (not spelled Ottomon) would be better informed if you looked up that word “dhimmi.”
- Its interesting that supposedly you’re on the side of oppressed people and rationalize Arabs’ enslavement of blacks as a situation where the blacks were always treated well and manumitted often. I could say the same about Classical slavery, but the truth is that slavery was never pleasant for a slave - whether the master was European or Arab. I suppose you are positively sure blacks enslaved by Arabs enjoyed their tenure.
- The Christians were gone from the Middle East by the 14th and 17th centuries. Furthmore, no Europeans invaded Arabia until the 19th century. You’ve never seen a relevant map. I suppose you think “Arabia” encompasses Turkey, Syria, and Palestine.
- If you think China has never conquered other countries in the fashion of “ravenous trolls,” well then you’ve never heard of Tibet or Xinjiang, have you? How about the Senkaku islands? How about Mischeif Reef, formerly property of the Philippines? Ever heard of Taiwan? When the Nationalist Chinese took over the place, they didn’t exactly get along with the natives. Unless you consider masscres a kind of “getting along” between non-Europeans, which wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
- China financed (and possibly still finances) guerilla movements throughout South East Asia. In Malaysia, India, Bhutan, and Indonesia. It may still be bankrolling the current conflict in Nepal. It absolutely funded the bloody Sendero Luminoso movement in Peru. (Chinese paying for deaths of thousands of Hispanics… Does that fit into your bizarre conception of non-European solidarity?). I guess we should also forgive the Chinese for providing the ideology behind Pol Pots “cultural revolution” that was a shabby veneer for pointless mass murder.
- If you think the Mongols got along just fine with the people they conquered, without oppression, if you think the Koreans were content to have their King controlled by Mongolians in Beijing by means of Buddhist Uxorolocalism, you cant be a proud Korean. By the way, in 1254 the Mongols killed the Abbasid Caliphs in Baghdad. That really damaged Islamic civilization in a way from which it has never fully “recovered” and it is a source of extreme anger and nostalgia among them today.
- You suggest the Koreans helped the Mongols invade Japan because of Japan’s invasion of Korea in the Imjim Wars. That ignores the fact that the Imjin Wars were in 1592 and 1598, and the Mongol/Korean invasion of Japan occurred 300 years earlier. In fact, if I were using your idiotic logic of racial revenge, I might call the Imjin Wars Korea’s payback for “crimes.”
Yen Jun, if your descendants are as intelligent as you, my kids have nothing to fear. Besides, Africa is sadly being depopulated by AIDS and senseless genocide, the whole Arab world has an economy the size of Finland’s when you subtract oil/natural gas (while a quarter to a third of their populations are foreign guest workers from places like the Philippines), and Asia…
Well, I think your kids had better beware of licking Chinese or Japanese boots.
Unless, of course, they choose to live under liberty and justice for all in a land that welcomes them with open arms.
God Bless America.
I admire many aspects of all these civilizations I have been forced to degrade in order to prove my obvious point - many non-European cultures did horrible things.
However, I don’t wish to insult anyone from any of these ethnic groups who may be reading this, and I apologize if I have. I’m finished replying to the racist tirades of a historical illiterate.
” You suggest the Koreans helped the Mongols invade Japan because of Japan?€™s invasion of Korea in the Imjim Wars. That ignores the fact that the Imjin Wars were in 1592 and 1598, and the Mongol/Korean invasion of Japan occurred 300 years earlier. In fact, if I were using your idiotic logic of racial revenge, I might call the Imjin Wars Korea?€™s payback for ?€œcrimes.”
Yet again you dirty animal you don’t seem to have very good reading comprehension. Here is what I stated,
” Further, the Mongols did attempt to attack Japan. Further Japan attemptepd to invade Korean durring the Imjin Wars. Whats intresting though is that Korea and Japan arn?€™t involved in too many further conflicts other then those?€?. ”
Now I don’t see anywhere where I claim causality or state an ordinality of one with respect to the other. I looked up the word “further” in the American Heritage Dictionary and its relevent defintion was “addition to.” I know you probably lack the facaulties to understand simple propositional logic but addition to corresponds to the word “and” and thus what I am saying A AND B happened. not that B->A or A->B…
Of course what else can I expect from an individual who equates intelligence with ability to recite some few lines of history. As I have stated prior I am not a student of history, however, it takes no lengthy reading of history to show the obviousness of these facts.
I note a very intresting thing in your replise… many of your commemnts were either a criticism in my spelling (which I assume can only come out of desperation as this is an informal forum) and proposing “correction” of historical facts (i.e. there were more then 10 crusades and some wern’t in the Middle East, which is completly irrelevent). Or a a criticsm on how I taxonomise a country (i.e. Palestine is not a part of Arabia, which is also irrelevent if its not true).
“I could say the same about Classical slavery, but the truth is that slavery was never pleasant for a slave - whether the master was European or Arab. I suppose you are positively sure blacks enslaved by Arabs enjoyed their tenure.”
No they may not enjoy being slaves but their “tenure” as slaves was certanily more enjoyable then the experience of the Africans in North America. Notice how slaves can become a respected member of society… Even after the supposed emancipation proclamation, blacks didn’t become a respected member of American soceity till close to present day (if they are now at all).
“If you think China has never conquered other countries in the fashion of ?€œravenous trolls,?€? well then you?€™ve never heard of Tibet or Xinjiang, have you?”
Again I never said “China” never conquered countries. I am very much aware of imperial conquests in some of the differnt dynasties. However, I would very much state that the conquest of Tibet recently and the Uighars in teh late 1800s (2 imperial expasnsions, I believe that Qing China was involved in 16 or so armed conflicts). Again comparing it to the Filthy Urchins of the western perhipahry and it is of course no contest who is more trigger happy and cruel.
“- China financed (and possibly still finances) guerilla movements throughout South East Asia. In Malaysia, India, Bhutan, and Indonesia. It may still be bankrolling the current conflict in Nepal. It absolutely funded the bloody Sendero Luminoso movement in Peru. (Chinese paying for deaths of thousands of Hispanics?€? Does that fit into your bizarre conception of non-European solidarity?).”
the United States financed the overthrow of Chileian, Iranian, Iraqi, Guatamala, South Vietnamse, El Salvador, “intervened” in Panama, invaded Cuba several times, has generally attempted to “spread freedom” (euphamism for spreading US puppet states) in Latin America and the Middle East. Funny, if the Chinese have endeavoured to the same in their own backyard it certainly dosn’t seem to be on the same magnitude or level as their Western counterparts…
“Yen Jun, if your descendants are as intelligent as you, my kids have nothing to fear”‘
Indeed, I’m pretty sure that my descendents will probably spend their time in endeavours that is useful and practical not knowing random blurbs about history….. They will still knwo the obviousness of the European treacheries however, because truth is easy to ascertain.
“Well, I think your kids had better beware of licking Chinese or Japanese boots”
Very unlikely, Korea has been occupied twice in the last 1000 years, once by Japan and the other time by the Mongols. Further Japan’s demograhpics in the future will ensure it can do nothing but watch and bitch in the future. I don’t believe China will be a threat… the different dynasties of China have not freqeuntly sought or attempted to conquer any of the past Korean incarnations. I doubt this China seeks anything of the sort. Further Koreans are a strong willed people, unlike stupid crackers such as yourself.
“Unless, of course, they choose to live under liberty and justice for all in a land that welcomes them with open arms.”
Yes they can go to America who views them as pereptual aliens and belittles them in media and society. Here is the problem with your argument, a large segment of Asian Americans believe they are marginalized by American society.
“Besides, Africa is sadly being depopulated by AIDS and senseless genocide, the whole Arab world has an economy the size of Finland?€™s when you subtract oil/natural gas (while a quarter to a third of their populations are foreign guest workers from places like the Philippines), and Asia?€?”
Africa is the way it is because Europeans have imposed a unworkable state system in its former colonies. With resepct to Europe and America. The nations of the Middle East and Latin America need not match you in weapons, they merely need to breed you out. I’m sure you know teh European peoples are dying, because your race is weak. In Europe, the Muslims are slowly taking your place and are in a slow conquest of your lands. In America the Mexicans are doing the same, in Siberia , the Chinese are doing the same. Europe and her peoples are doomed… all the peoples of the world need to do in the future is to complete the process at their leisure.
“I admire many aspects of all these civilizations I have been forced to degrade in order to prove my obvious point - many non-European cultures did horrible things. ”
No actaully what you did was admit to everyone what you really thought you stupid filthy scum.
My, we have veered off topic, haven’t we. Many thanks to Friend for injecting some useful stuff here.
As for body counts and which race is better - I refuse to get into that because that’s not even where it’s at. Another thing, I will not debate things with people who support suicide bombings in Israel or elsewhere, for example (not sure if anyone else picked up on that). Those that do have ruled themselves out of any kind of discussion of issues with me. Violence and hatred is wrong, no matter who it is targetted at.
Friend, you wrote:
I think the Sioux/tribal analogy is works because it is an example of how things are, or have been. You are saying it?€™s not a valid comparison, but then you talk about something else, namely what Korea should be, what it needs to be doing in order to be ?€œinterested in trade with the outside world, globalisation?€? ?€?branding a capital city with some daft logo to attract foreign tourists, enticing investors?€? ?€?and so on.?€?
It’s interesting that you say I talk about what Korea “should be”. I recall you once saying that every kind of writing in this world is either imperialist or something else. Perhaps in your book I qualify as an imperialist now.
Nevertheless, I was basing my comments on what Korea constantly announces and trumpets it is becoming - namely a modern and globalised country; part of the international community; Korea in the world and the world in Korea; etc - all that jazz.
As the Marmot has already noted, Korea will at some stage have to accept large numbers of (mostly non-white) immigrants. This is the natural pattern in the development of nations - those that are relatively wealthy attract immigrants/long-term guest workers from those countries that are not so wealthy (and even some from countries that are wealthy). Why not start to think about that now?
Another issue: when does an expat (expatriate) become an immigrant? Does one have to change citizenship? Does one have to be here for many years? Is there a special visa for that? I consider myself an immigrant in Korea, despite the fact that I have been here less than a year (this time) and less than 5 years (all up), and despite the fact that I have no desire to change my citizenship. I call myself an immigrant because (1) I have nothing to go back to - no other houses or residences, and no significant assets in foreign countries; and (2) because I have no intention to leave Korea to live elsewhere at this stage. My visa, however, will expire after one year if I do not renew it. Do I qualify as an immigrant?
It is important to bear in mind the fact that nowhere in my original post did I ask Koreans to ‘be nice’ to all foreigners, nor that there be an end to racism in Korea (heavens, that will never happen anywhere!). I’m also aware, as some have pointed out, that racism can be two-edged, and sometimes it comes out in some people’s (usually white folks) favour. This is true, but I wouldn’t cry over seeing the end of that. What I was hoping for, and perhaps no one really noticed that, was an end to special treatment. An awareness that there are foreigners here who do live here a long time and don’t need coddling all the time (e.g. waitresses offering you forks in Korean restaurants, people speaking English to *all* foreigners at *all* times, wonderful tv programs to showcase foreigners’ Korean ability, etc).
Yes there are many white people here who bitch about Korean racism, while not realising how good they’ve got it here. I hope I am not one of those (at least, not any longer). Sure I get riled by things in this place, but it is rare that I link that in my mind to racial issues.
Other (non-white) foreigners in Korea have it much tougher than most of us privileged folks here (wouldn’t it be nice if we had some of them here blogging and commenting? I guess they have too little free time or better ways to spend it, but their contributions would be welcome).
My point about a certain someone?€™s style of Korean is that it is very professional Korean. Many foreigners who speak Korean in the workplace can speak ?€œbusiness Korean?€? and have professional relationships in it, but the limitations of the Korean they speak suggests that for whatever reason and perhaps not even by intention they have kept Korea at a little bit of a distance, kept it in the professional spheres of their lives. There?€™s nothing wrong with that, but keeping the Korean side of your life compartmentalized will guarantee Korean society keeps the same distance.
But then it comes back to which comes first, doesn’t it? Speaking Korean well in all areas of life, or being accepted as a foreigner in Korea. Underwood is suggesting that Korean society needs to finish the job that it started in trying to globalise. I tend to agree with him. You seem to be saying that foreigners must assimilate to be accepted. Isn’t that what countries like the US, Australia and the UK used to say? This idea has fallen greatly out of favour of late because it seeks to force foreigners into the mold of the host country, rather than just letting them be. Interestingly, it is the progressives and liberals in those countries that argue against the assimilationist model, while their counterparts here argue in favour of it. Is it wrong there but right here? Is it only wrong there because the (until recently) chiefly white inhabitants of some of those countries killed or displaced indigenous populations of those lands? This argument doesn’t really work in the Netherlands. There immigration is a relatively recent phenomenon - except for Jewish populations over the centuries - but they don’t force foreigners to assimilate as much.
As for Underwood keeping Korea at a distance (intentionally or otherwise) - this is a man who talks in Korean, not about Korea, but about ‘uri nara’, a man who describes himself as an American who loves Korea, who now seeks to return to America and while there will continue working for Korea, and return here periodically. What distance do you speak of?
BTW, the ?€œhubs?€? of Singapore and Hong Kong seem to get by without ?€œcultures of immigration.?€? But both can be very welcoming of tourists and not let the outsider into that ?€œinner group.?€?
Perhaps we can learn something from them. I am not arguing necessarily that all Koreans welcome fo