Get a load of this map, straight out of a Hong Kong middle school history book:
The textbook, which gives simple accounts of Chinese history along with a variety of pictures and maps, continued to claim that the northern half of the Korean Peninsula was Chinese land after it introduced one map that says the northern half of the peninsula was within the Chinese sphere of influence.
In particular, as the textbook describes China’s Three Kingdoms period (during which the nation was split into the Wei, Shu and Wu dynasties) on pg. 155, the accompanying map indicates the territory where the early Koguryo kingdom should be as belonging to China’s Wei Dynasty.
Hmmm, the “Missing Korean Kingdom” trick, I see. In defense of the book, however, the map from Yahoo! Korea’s Encyclopedia’s entry on China’s Three Kingdom Period isn’t much different:
Being a Korean map, however, it did manage to pay Koguryo (and the Yemaek) proper respect.
TIME Asia had a piece on the Koguryo conflict that painted China’s actions mostly in a defensive light:
Why does China care? Koguryo’s ancient borders extend into northern China, where nearly 2 million ethnic Koreans now live. Beijing apparently fears that if North and South Korea were ever to reunite, these Koreans might try to secede from China, reclaiming Koguryo as part of Korea. “It’s possible that a unified Korea could make a claim to some of that territory,” says Mark Byington, a Harvard postdoctoral fellow who is writing a book on early Korean history. To head that off, Byington says, China is flogging a flawed interpretation of Koguryo’s history that is “obviously ideologically driven.”
My favorite part was this:
And last week as many as 200 protesters in Seoul–some in period costumes–scuffled with police during demonstrations outside the Chinese embassy. “They think China is trying to eradicate the Korean identity,” says Park Sang-seek, head of the Graduate Institute of Peace Studies at Kyung Hee University north of Seoul.
I’m kind of curious as to what Park himself thinks. Now, Park isn’t anti-American by any stretch of the imagination, but one day, and I forget why, he had a bone to pick with Washington over something or other, and he goes to me, “Chinese pressure isn’t like American pressure. American pressure is blunt and heavy, while Chinese pressure is more subtle and refined.” Wonder whether he’s had a change of heart.
Balhae was Korean — if Zhou Enlai said it, it must be true! From the Joongang version:
According to the records, Mr. Zhou told the North Korean officials, “Chinese historians have tended to write history from the point of view of a great power” and criticized certain Chinese academics for distorting history.
“Past historians in China were very inaccurate about the development of the Chinese and Joseon nations. The Joseon people have lived in the Korean Peninsula and the northeast region of China for a very long period of time. Historical relics and remains found in Balhae prove that Joseon people resided there. It’s absurd to say Joseon was a state subordinate to China in ancient times.”
The Dong-A talks about the “Koguryo Fever” sweeping the nation. In particular, we have the Korea Federation of Teachers’ Associations (KFTA) and the Korean Teachers and Educational Workers’ Union (KTEWU) working together to combat Chinese historical distortions. I guess we’ll soon be seeing joint Korean War vets — Hanchongnyeon protests in front of the Chinese Embassy, just as soon as Hanchongnyeon kids get the OK from Pyongyang.
The Joongang Ilbo reported that while many Koreans are up in arms, most Chinese couldn’t give a shit less:
Despite South Koreans’ emotional reactions to what they see as a challenge by China to Korea’s ancient history, the Chinese media have generally ignored the matter since a series of comments in July that aroused Koreans’ ire. A Chinese editor in Beijing said that residents there are mostly ignorant of the dispute or are indifferent to it.
Of course, it’s only natural that Chinese would be indifferent to the Koguryo issue. It’s not their history, after all.
This probably doesn’t mean much, but it did give me a chuckle:
Providing a surprise twist in Korea’s love-hate relationship with America, more than 72 percent of liberal Uri members, altogether 94, were among those who picked the United States.
Seventeen of the 123 Uri members who took part in the survey named North Korea as the top priority for diplomatic relations and 12 chose China.
About 82 percent of Uri members in the National Assembly participated in the survey.
An internal Uri survey just after the April general elections of its 151 lawmakers showed about 63 percent viewed China as the most important foreign country for diplomatic ties. Only 26 percent chose the United States.
Apparently, the parody people are getting kick out the Koguryo thing. And just for the fun of it, I’ve posted a recent picture of model/actress Kim Hee-sun done up in her Koguryo princess best for a film role she’s working on with some Chinese director.
84 Comments
A bunch of nutjob conspiracy theories worthy of Tom Clancy himself if I must say so. The Chinese claim on Koguryo is almost entirely a defensive manuever against Korean claims on parts of Chinese territory. Fanciful scenarios of the PLA surging across the Yalu again to snatch Korean territory are just that. Get your noses out of the Kimchee and back into reality. At the end of the Korean War there were literally dozens of PLA divisions left in the Northern part of Korean peninsula. If there really were Chinese “imperialist” claims on Korean territory, why would they even had bothered to leave? The Americans wouldn’t have driven them out, the DPRK wouldn’t have driven them out, the South certainly couldn’t do anything about it. As for possible present Chinese designs on a slice of North Korean territory on the east sea/sea of japan, again this is pretty preposterous. The North Korean government is almost entirely dependant on CCP support. If the CCP really wanted to wrestle away a few port cities, its not like they are not in a position to do so legally. Some small territorial concessions in exchange for generous military and economic aid packages would be one way to go about it.
I know a lot of you are American conservatives who are naturally predicated toward either a)stupidity b)china bashing but you only need to examine the facts as they stand at present to see that China has no nefarious designs on Korean territory. Instead of conjuring half baked theories about the next red menace.
I tend to downplay these historical battles, even when taken up at the highest level of society. Japan and Korea haven’t gone to war over Tokdo. And Korea and China aren’t likely to have the power to dictate matters to each other or fight it out.
I do think the government of South Korea should do some planning about what to do if China tries to set up camp in NK SHOULD NK collapse. That would mean rethinking their kicking the US in the nuts frequently.
I would think one potentially great ally on this would be Japan. It would be a very delicate and difficult path to go down, but what benefits could be reaped? It could be a kind of triangular diplomacy. China fears the US, but the region is nuts about a neo-Japanese empire. The problem with triangulation for Korea is the same fear in Korean society. But if they could put it aside, fear of China taking over NK could help Korea and Japan work together to cause China second and third thoughts on the matter
Marmot, thanks for keeping us posted. That map in the Hong Kong middle school textbook is interesting. I wonder if this is a new edition or an older edition of the textbook.
As for the Time article, I think its analysis is partly correct. China is genuinely concerned about maintaining its hold on ethnic enclaves of its perimeter. And some Korean nationalists, such as my friend and former colleague Kim Sang Yil (Hanshin University), do talk about getting Goguryeo back (as well as China’s Shandong Province!) — talk that I consider destabilizing and dangerous.
The textbook map, however, clearly illustrates the more pressing problem. A claim to Goguryeo by China sets China up to lay current claim to North Korea if it begins to fall. China has made previous statements that it will not allow a unified Korea to maintain U.S. troops on the Chinese-Korean border. The divided status of the peninsula makes China’s statements about Goguryeo very worrisome, especially since it already considers North Korea as within its sphere of influence and treats the North as a quasi-vassal state. I can readily imagine that China would move troops into North Korea to maintain its ‘territorial integrity’ and then simply hang onto it indefinitely, using an argument from historical ‘legitimacy’ that Goguryeo was Chinese. I’ve stated this before, but it bears repeating, I think.
Since Korea may be my long-term home and since I’m bound to it by bonds of matrimony and two half-Korean progeny, then the shape of Northeast Asia’s future concerns me a great deal.
Unfortunately, we may be about to live in ‘interesting times.’
Jeffery Hodges
Marmot we apperciate the Kim Hee-sun pic…and all other information you’ve provided….;)
I’m new to this site but it seems that people are jumping to a lot of conclusions from what seems to be a fairly small (mis)interpretation on Sino-Korean history. Realistically even if N Korea somehow collapsed I doubt that China would enter what would be a very ugly situation. It would have its hands full just trying to keep the border from being overwhelmed by fleeing refugees.
I’m glad to see that Koreans are taking a more realistic view of China but at the same time thinking that this change in view over Korguryo is a precursor to an invasion is a bit of a reach.
The best thing the Korean govt can do is to try to settle the issue directly with the PRC and to not let nationalists take over the issue and turn what might be a relatively benign matter into a real crisis. The world has enough problems as it is.
A Korean professor once told me that Korean unification would need American involvement. At the time I disagreed with him and said, “No, unification is a Korean matter.”
I was wrong. After North Korea collapses, South Korea will need U.S. air support to bomb the PLA when they storm across the Yalu River.
America made the mistake of allowing Russian troops to the 38th parallel. We won’t let that kind of thing happen again.
“…just as soon as Hanchongnyeon kids get the OK from Pyongyang.”
It’s funny cause it’s true.
I would like to see a survey of U.S. lawmakers to see where they rank Korea among the candidates for “top priority in international relations” and “best ally.”
would like to see a survey of U.S. lawmakers to see where they rank Korea among the candidates for ?€œtop priority in international relations?€? and ?€œbest ally.?€?
Well, pix of the giant US flag burning and shredding ceremony in fornt of the embassy in Seoul went out all over Yahoo News and MSN the other day. And this isn’t the first time. Korea still holds the world’s record for largest US flag ever burned.
I have a feeling that most yanks and their lawmakers couldn’t give a shit whether Korea is swallowed up by China or Japan. They just don’t want to be the dog that gets kicked every time a Korean has a bad day.
I know a lot of you are American conservatives who are naturally predicated toward either a)stupidity b)china bashing
Seems you’re suggesting that one would have to be stupid not to bash China.
actually, if that were true American conservative would mean a) intelligence b) china bashing
I know a lot of you are American conservatives who are naturally predicated toward either a)stupidity b)china bashing
Seems you?€™re suggesting that one would have to be stupid not to bash China.
Um, perhaps that should be restated as follows…
I know a lot of you are American conservatives who are naturally predicated toward either a)stupidity and an inability to read and understand written English b)china bashing
I know a lot of you are American conservatives who are naturally predicated toward either a)stupidity b)china bashing but you only need to examine the facts as they stand at present to see that China has no nefarious designs on Korean territory.
Anybody smell Chinese food?
Anyway, Jing, you’re right — it’s simply mind-boggling how anyone could accuse China — which, as Yu Shiyu recently pointed out in the Asia Times, has always had regional peace and Korea’s best interests as heart — of having nefarious designs on Korean territory. Simply preposterous. And shameful, too, especially given how China, of course, almost never uses shrill rhetoric to accuse the U.S. and Japan of every nefarious scheme under the sun.
Yes, indeed, the commentors on this blog need to get their heads examined
Your droll and heavy sarcasm aside, you are right that China does not have the best interests of Korea nor “regional peace” in mind. It has China’s interests in mind which inevitably are the only ones that matter to China. However, China’s interests are not on annexing a part of North Korea as everyone seems to be implying in the ever popular Chicken Little fashion. I was simply pointing out the obvious that had China had designs on Korea, they would have acted on them long since before it left its role as traditional communist pariah state. The only place China currently has nefarious designs on is Taiwan.
Jing, “you only need to examine the facts as they stand at present to see that China has no nefarious designs on Korean territory.”
I examined the facts at present and observed that China has border disputes with Malaysia, Philippines, Taiwan, Vietnam, Brunei, India, Kyrgzstan, Tajikistan, South Korea, North Korea, Japan, and Russia.
http://www.didyouknow.cd/story/disputes.htm
Until the CCP allows the Chinese people to democratically elect their leaders, it would be best to keep an eye on Asia’s 800-lb. gorilla.
Don’t take my “droll and heavy sarcasm aside” seriously — as a New Yorker, sarcasm and generally negativity is something of a birthright. Anyway, probably right in pointing out that China would never annex North Korea outright, although there may be border/territorial water issues later down the road depending on how thing develop. It’s not inconceivable that China would make a land grab — my favorite example is Mongolia, over which China has had to sign secret protocols with the Russians not once but twice (some suspect thrice) re-affirming its independence — but in the case of North Korea, I can’t image Beijing being willing to pay the political, economic and military price of turning Korea north of the 38th into a Chinese province. You just don’t see many of those kinds of land grabs nowadaws. I also happened to agree that Chinese historical claims are, for the most part, of a defensive nature for now. I think the major concern is that China might utilize these historical claims later on to justify intervention in North Korea in order to prop up their buffer state, something they have shown a willingness to do in the past. I also think there are reasonable concerns that territorial issues may arise given the way in which history is used politically in the region, rise of nationalist sentiment in China and Beijing’s history of irredentism.
BTW, if it means anything to you, I’m not a proponent of starting a new Cold War with China. I don’t think there is any need for that, and drawing those kinds of lines would be disasterous for everyone involved. I am a realist, however, so I maintain what I like to think of as a healthy scepticism of Chinese intentions (not because I think China’s especially evil, but because I assume that like the Americans, the Chinese will do what’s in their own best interests). For what its worth, diplomatic and security white papers out of Beijing are equally as sceptical about U.S. (and Japanese) intentions. This is probably a good thing — keeps everyone on their toes and on their (usually) best behavior.
Your point being? Practically every nation has border disputes. Your list is also somewhat misleading considering some of them have essentially be resolved. As it stands, China only has genuine border issues of any significance with India and Vietnam (The Spratley islands being contested by a number of nations but the main actors are China and Vietnam). As people are so fond of pointing out, Chinese of today are quite nationalistic, democracy won’t be a magic balm that will end conflict. In fact quite the contrary, a democratic China could be a greater threat to it’s neighbors than a communist China.
Part of the reason China did pull out after the Korean war was that they knew North Korea would do its bidding. Nothing wrong with that. Why did they enter the war in the first place? To keep a cushion between it and U.S. influenced SK. China might try to barter some N/NE sea ports as Jing said. But if negotiations are not successful for China, there is a decent chance they will grab it when the opportunity arises. To say this genuine possiblility is a conjured conspiracy theory means some rose colored glasses are being used. Maybe you are somewhat right Jing when you said we, me included, on this board are making it out that it is a done deal. But don’t be blind and say there isn’t a decent chance of China doing a land grab -big or small.
We only have to see the examples of current Chinese behavior to know what kind of government we’re dealing with here. Tibet is one example. China’s historical claims on Tibet is getting to be eerily similiar to their attempt at stealing part of Korean history (yes, I will say Korean history because Koguryo was much more Korean than Chinese ever was).
Ching asks an interesting question, why did China leave North Korea after the Korean War? The answer is very simple. Why did China intervene in that war? Because they couldn’t have a US armed democratic country right at their border. They didn’t want it then, and they don’t want it now. And we are talking about the same communist government here, don’t forget. As long as North Korea was under their Communist influence, there was no reason for the Chinese forces to stay. And also let’s not forget, without the Chinese propping up one of the bloodiest regimes in the history of the world, North Korea would not be what it is today.
If you look at all these facts plus the facts that China continues to send back North Korean refugees to North Korea (as well as turning a blind eye to selling and buying of North Korean women and children), cooperating with Kim Jong Il North Korea, how can you think that suspicions of China’s motives are unwarranted unless your head is stuck in sand?
Just to comment on this issue, the Chinese left because a) given that the DPRK shared borders with both the PRC and USSR, both those allies could immediately introduce significant combat forces into the peninsula in the event of an emergency without having to keep forces on DPRK territory. For Beijing, Moscow, and Pyongyang, this was quite convenient politically, as it allowed them to portray North Korea as the “independent” Korea and South Korea as a U.S. military colony in the international arena. China also had other significant economic and security issues to worry about at the time, and was probably disinclined to keep valuable military resources (at considerable cost to Beijing) in an area in which they were not needed in any case.
By the time this is resolved there will be so many Korean men married to Chinese mail order brides no one will be able to tell where anyone is from in the first place, again.
HSN: Ching asks an interesting question, why did China leave North Korea after the Korean War?
For the same reason that China did not invade Mongolia - because the Soviet Union was the ultimate guarantor of North Korea’s and Mongolia’s independence against Chinese claims.
Jing, “Chinese of today are quite nationalistic…a democratic China could be a greater threat to it?€™s neighbors than a communist China.”
So you say we need to worry about Chinese aggression. That’s what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up.
Paul Schofield has an interesting piece on this subject. Notice the continued pattern of Chinese expansionism. North Korea/Koguryo may turn out to be another Taiwan waiting to happen in a few years. I think the argument that China is trying to be defensive about their territory when we take into consideration the fact that their military spending is going up through the roof, while they spend majority of their weaponry on offensive capabilities. The question is who is China trying to defend themselves against? I think the answer’s clear, they’re not exactly worried about defense.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FH19Dg01.html
So Marmot, your favorite part includes: ?€œThey think China is trying to eradicate the Korean identity,?€? says Park Sang-seek, head of the Graduate Institute of Peace Studies at Kyung Hee University north of Seoul.
And as I recall, this is exactly what the Japanese did in their occupation of the Penninsula during the first half of the 20th Century… We can trust the Chinese to be as they always have been… deadly serious, methodical, subtle, and much better at planning long-range operations than we impulsive, self-centered, democratically-ruled Westerners…
>deadly serious, methodical, subtle, and much better
>at planning long-range operations than
>we impulsive, self-centered, democratically-ruled
>Westerners
Fortunately, those weaknesses are part of what makes democracy so effective.
Ahhh yellow peril never gets old for good old Home Shopping Network. The PLA’s official budget is approximately 20 billion U.S. dollars. Taken into consideration its GDP (at present dollar value), its not even 2%. Per capita, lower than even some of the less defensively inclined western European nations. However, even taking Pentagon estimates of anywhere between 40-80 billion U.S. dollars, the per capita expenditure of GDP still doesn’t exceed 4-7% of GDP, which is perfectly tolerable considering the present trend of Chinese economic expansion. (U.S. military budget is somewhere between 4-5% of GDP btw)
As for China rapidly “militarizing”, what is in fact doing is modernizing. It is changing the structure of the PLA from the old Maoist People’s Army model to a modern military entity by shedding excess bureaucracy, increasing professionalization, and acquiring high tech weapons. Nothing actually provacative since it is only bringing China up to part with western standards.
As for the acquisition of offensive military weapons, a rhetorical question one could ask is, is there any weapon that doesn’t have an offensive purpose? It is simply because offensive weapons are more cost effective that China is pursueing them. Defensive anti-missile systems are notoriously expensive and unreliable, their cost and sophistication immediately makes this an inappropriate option for the PLA. The choice of an more powerful offensive force to deter attack is a simple matter of cold arithmetic; it is simply just more efficient to kill than to defend. China’s acquisition of more capable and numerous nuclear forces is in response to the planned developement of a U.S. missile shield. While such a system would have limited effect against say the vast russian stockpiles, China at present relies on the strategy of minimal nuclear deterrance; the definition of minimal is being shifted by developements in the U.S. As for the Chinese acquisition of more modern naval and air forces, again it could be should be more accurately described as a modernization, dragging an archaic 1950’s PLA into the modern era. Besides, if you were even an amateur student of Chinese military developements, you’d realize that the PLA’s military modernization stems mainly from the lessons of the Sino-Vietnamese border clashes in the early 80’s, not from fascistic ambitions to acquire lebensraum.
HSN, as to your final question, the answer is fairly obvious. The PLA is modernizing and arming itself to defend against the U.S. and to enforce its claims on Taiwan. Not in any far fetched plan to absorb North Korea. Your entire statement reeks of the moral equivalency inherent in neoconservative thought. Country A is more “moral” than country B, thus has the right nay obligation to enforce its standards. As I have mentioned before, modern American conservatives are little more than Imperialists disguised as self-styled Democratists. Moral justification is used to further national interests and to assuage a politically feeble domestic electorate. Shell rhetoric used to hide exercises in hegemonic power. It’s not a particularly subtle ruse for those that recognize it, afterall marxists have made effective use of the same. I think some of the lessons that Maoism espoused have remained within Chinese political thought to do thisday; something every communist must recognize is that all political power begins at the barrel of a gun. It maybe atavistic and machiavellian but to press issues important to Chinese interests, a strong military is required to do so. Beijing is only afterall, following the footsteps set by Washington.
It is interesting how Jing is almost saying the very same things as the people he is rebutting — if you boil down his argument.
But to move on…..I often criticize the over estimation of “the China threat” but it is surely something Korea and the US and others have to consider. It has no reason being a primary driving force in forming foreign policy, but it should be a factor.
“Realistically even if N Korea somehow collapsed I doubt that China would enter what would be a very ugly situation. It would have its hands full just trying to keep the border from being overwhelmed by fleeing refugees.”
This is usually how it happens. Whether by artful design or contemporaneous reaction, nations have often stepped into messy situations beyond their borders in the name of providing “stability” only to remain in country for long periods of time.
The US is Korea is a classic example. The US had virtually no plans for Korea prior to the end of WWII, but quickly stepped into a situation where its troops have been on Korean soil for 50 years.
The very fact China fears the effect of massive refugees will be one of the primary influences for its stepping into North Korea to stabalize the area after any NK collapse.
Also, Jing’s chiding us ignorant conservative bastards for being paranoid and chicken little is actually hilarious if we pay any attetion to China itself. Anybody hear of a book called something like “China can say “no”"? China is full of xenophobic paranoia about the United States one day trying to bring about the collapse of its own communist government.
Just take for example the great spy plane battle of a few years ago — when the US spyplane in international airspace collided with the Chinese fighter plane. I was astonished to hear from a Chinese prof in the US that he had taken part in an internet chat in China with mostly college aged people and that he found many of them were crying for a major military show down with the US. Specifically, he said he was worried about how fervently many of them called for “teaching the US a lesson like we did in the Korean War.”
Well, this is just hyperbole and college students around the world tend to be melodramatic….
…..but the fact that China is much more paranoid about the US than any of us ignorant conservatives are about them.
Take for another example the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Kosovo. From what I saw on the news and from talking with a few Chinese grad students in the US, it seems the Chinese believe with out a doubt it was a direct act of provocation by the US to China. Talking to these Chinese grad students was like talking to Koreans. It didn’t have to make sense why the US would do such a thing. I’d ask, but they hadn’t even put half a mintue’s thought into what the US could possibly gain by bombing the embassy on purpose or that bombing the embassy actually made the US look stupid and cost it political capital in the world at a time when it needed international support to stabilize Kosovo (……see how that stabilization thing tends to pop up…..). No. For them, as I’ve seen in Koreans over and over and over again, for the Chinese, the spy plane incident was an opportunity to vent anger at the enemy. …. Now compare that to the US reaction to the same incident or any common fear of China you might find in broader American society.
To close, I want to move back to a positive note. As I stated earlier, I am not worried about a show down with China anytime soon. It is all overblown. And I took heart when citizens in Beijing put flowers in front of the US Embassy in the days immediately after 9-11
I?€™d also add this ?€”?€” it would be stupid for the government in China if it did not fear the US one day trying to subvert it or use force against it. In fact, I?€™d even go so far as to say China should be more paranoid about the US than the US about China ?€” even though I think they already take the paranoia too far. I don?€™t support the communist system in China or the government behind it, but if I were asked to be a consultant for the Chinese government, I?€™d tell them to watch out for the US ?€”- simply because the ideological fabric of the two societies are opposed to each other. And since the end of the Cold War has swung the pendulum way into the favor of the US and capitalist democracies, if China’s goal is to maintain its basic political system, it has to worry about the US - and given the US strength vs China’s, China should be more paranoid.
Asia by Blog
Linking you with the best of Asian linkage… Hong Kong, Taiwan and China Hong Kong was titillated with when a LegCo candidate was arrested for soliciting a prostitute in China. ESWN notes significant differences between the English and Chinese languag…
Jing:
“…Your entire statement reeks of the moral equivalency inherent in neoconservative thought. Country A is more ?€œmoral?€? than country B, thus has the right nay obligation to enforce its standards.”
_____________________
I was under the impression that “moral equivalency” referred to the assertion that two seeming (or self-described) opposites, like W. and Osama Bin Laden, or the Israeli government and Hamas, are actually no different in moral terms. Ergo, it is hypocritical for one, usually the more “powerful,” to condemn the other on moral grounds.
Now, whatever anyone things of this position, it’s hard to see the Neocons as operating from it. If they were thinking in terms of moral equivalence, they’d be unlikely to even consider the idea of condemning another nation for being undemocratic, not to mention going to war for the sake of “nation-building.” “Moral suprematism,” or something like it, might be the expression you’re looking for, Jing.
And no, I don’t think your position is one of moral equivalence. If one’s position is that China is purely good and the US (and the West by extension) purely bad in ethnic and political terms, there can surely be no equivalence there.
A nice related article:
http://news.independent.co.uk/.....ory=552229
I can never understand the Korean fascination with China. China’s glories are in the past. It has been the sick man of East Asia for the better part of a century. 99% of everything that a Chinese person sees and touches on a day-to-day basis, ranging from electricity to skyscrapers, are of Western origin. Even chili peppers, corn and the potato, all of which are staples of the Chinese diet, are the discoveries of Western explorers in the Americas many centuries ago.
The Chinese have antiquities, not an advanced civilization. The Korean admiration for China’s current progress, despite its abject poverty, is a lot like a rich man admiring a hobo after that hobo has just earned his first paycheck, simply because the hobo is descended from the Vanderbilts or the Rockefellers. It’s not an honor to be a hobo with Rockefeller blood - it’s a disgrace.
“China’s glories are in the past.” Not really, the the U.K., the U.S., Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Germany, Russia, and for just about everyone else, it is all downhill from here on out. China, whose best years are still decades to come, is now in space, building the biggest construction projects, mastering the Olympics, and will recaputure Taiwan by 2020 by force or by negotiation. South Korea’s peak was in 2002 at the World Cup with a fourth place finish, and the team has headed south since then. Reunification with North Korea will most likely not occur before the Taiwan issue is resolved because the two issues are connected by the U.S. involvement.
if I were asked to be a consultant for the Chinese government, I?€™d tell them to watch out for the US ?€”- simply because the ideological fabric of the two societies are opposed to each other.”
Hummm . . . I think most of that fabric is “made in China” nowadays. I disagree with this statement. China does not have to worry about a country — like the U.S. — that has so much money in China. I think Korea has something to worry about, however.
I’d like to see the Big Dragon make a move on Taiwan. Maybe they can turn it into a big piece of shiny glass, but “taking” Taiwan isn’t going to happen in my life time.
R. Elgin: Hummm . . . I think most of that fabric is ?€œmade in China?€? nowadays.
The fabric is made in China because China has the cheapest labor around. Production will shift just as readily to other countries when China actually emerges from its status as the sick man of Asia. The time to worry about China is when Chinese companies start manufacturing in Korea. My preferred indicator is this - when Thai bar girls start showing up in China instead of the other way around, then China will have finally arrived - at Thailand’s level. Before China can compare itself to Korea, it needs to get to the levels of countries below Korea first. This is what I don’t get about China’s superiority complex - I don’t see how their fettering away of their overrated ancestors’ accomplishments is anything to be proud about.
BD: Not really, the the U.K., the U.S., Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Germany, Russia, and for just about everyone else, it is all downhill from here on out. China, whose best years are still decades to come, is now in space, building the biggest construction projects, mastering the Olympics, and will recaputure Taiwan by 2020 by force or by negotiation.
China’s best years have been behind it for hundreds of years. And its prospects are for a devastating war with neighbors, with US backing, who are acutely sensitive to Chinese land grabs masked as disputes over principle. China can replicate the Soviet sports machine by winning gold medals at various sporting competitions - the question is whether China will follow the Soviet economy down the drain. What happens when the Chinese salaries reach Thailand’s level? Will foreign (or Chinese) companies want to manufacture in an environment where their property is subject to seizure at the whim of some corrupt and xenophobic Chinese official? Will they want to deal with the monthly power cuts - such that factories have to buy their own generation capacity - because China insists on subsidizing consumer power rates?
Ahh the covetous shylock on the attack. Don’t mind Zhang Fei, he seems to have a strange China fixation that is unhealthy to say the least.
Zhang Fei: Traditional Chinese culture is increasingly altering Western civilization with Chinese cruisine, acupunture, herbal tea, philosophy, kungfu, movies, tai chi, and language. It is the most influential culture after American pop culture, which is facing a severe backlash. 50% of Korean vocabulary is derived from Chinese. Koreans eat rice with chopsticks. The South Korean flag has Chinese I Ching symbols. Even you have a Chinese-inspired name. More Koreans than any other foreigners are learning Chinese in China. How much has Koguryo civilization influence Korean culture - less than 1%. With this Koguryo controversy, the Korean people will be forced to look at Chinese archives, and they will soon realize to their history is so intertwined with that of the Chinese. The Koreans were responsible (Silla) along with the Tang Chinese in destroying Koguryo civilization in 668 A.D.
How much has Koguryo civilization influence Korean culture - less than 1%.
Interesting. How did you figure that percentage out?
With this Koguryo controversy, the Korean people will be forced to look at Chinese archives, and they will soon realize to their history is so intertwined with that of the Chinese. The Koreans were responsible (Silla) along with the Tang Chinese in destroying Koguryo civilization in 668 A.D.
Perhaps. But they will also look into there own archives and figure out that the Sino-Korean relationship has historically been much more complicated than Chinese and Sino-centric Joseon Dynasty scribes would like one to believe. Interesting that you should bring up the Tang-Silla relationship. In Mungyeong, North Gyeongsang Province (where I lived for three years), there is a site known as the Danggyo, where it is said an entire Tang army was buried after Silla general and Korean national hero Kim Yu-shin poisoned them during a banquet in the middle of a truce. This was at a time, of course, when Tang forces — fresh off “assisting” Shilla destroy the Baekje and Koguryo kingdoms — was moving very quickly into turning the entire Korean Peninsula — including Silla — into a Chinese commandery. Courtesy Korea in the Eye of the Tiger:
Nearly simultaneous with the collapse of Koguryo, Tang China moved to establish administrative control over the entire Korean peninsula. Emperor Gao Zong created the “Protectorate-General to Pacify the East” within the ruins of P’yong’yang and established nine additional commanderies to govern Koguryo’s former domain. It extended its jurisdiction over Paekche by establishing commanderies in each of Paekche’s five provinces and creating the Great Commandery of Kyerim as a mechanism to control the Kingdom of Silla. King Munmu and the Silla court came to stark realization that Tang China was treating it no differently than it had been treated by Paekche and Koguryo.
The Chinese did not want to appear offensive to local residents, so they disguised the reality of their actions by appointing local rulers as governors in each of the commandery districts. They installed Prince Yung in Ungjin as territorial administrator of the former Kingdom of Paekche and appointed King Munmu as Governor-General of Kyerim to administer his own kingdom from Kyongju. Real control however, rested in the hands of General Liu Renyuan and the Tang Chinese army. Emperor Gao Zong never intended to win over the people of Korea, he real intent was to bring the entire Korean Peninsula under Chinese imperial control.
Unwilling to accept Chinese dominance, Silla launched a fresh campaign to assert its own dominance over the former Koguryo domain. Proving to be Koreans above all else, scattered remnants of Koguryo soldiers joined forces with Silla warriors to attack and destroy the token Chinese commandery garrisons. Silla sent its armies into the former kingdom of Paekche and defeated General Liu Renyuan’s occupation armies in numerous battles. During one such engagement, General Kim Yu-sin ordered one of his generals to command what would certainly be a suicide attack against a large Chinese force. The officer accepted the order as a great honor and requested that General Kim watch over his only son to prevent him from following his father into battle. General Kim assured him that he would do so. The general rode into the fight and was quickly killed. Having witnessed his father’s death at the hands of the Chinese, the young man broke free, mounted his horse and rode into battle. He too, died fighting. Almost immediately the slain general’s house manager and personal servant mounted up and rode into battle, only to be killed. The entire Silla army witnessed this incredible act of loyalty. Swept with a wave of sympathy for this act of sacrifice, General Kim’s army charged into battle to avenge the death of a general’s entire family.
Silla retook the Pusosansong Fortress at Sabi in 671 AD, and regained control over the entire former territory of Paekche. China retaliated by sending a fresh army to punish the upstart kingdom, but after five years of raging combat Silla badly mauled the Chinese and succeeded in pushing them north of the Taedong River. Faced with stiff resistance in Korea, China relocated its office of the Protectorate-General to Pacify the East from P’yong’yang to the city of Liaodongcheng near modern Liaoyang just south of Mukden, Manchuria, in effect recognizing Silla’s hegemony over the Korean Peninsula. China gave up its drive for outright military subjugation of Korea and negotiated a truce line with Silla that extended roughly along the Taedong River across the peninsula to the Bay of Wonsan on the east coast. Whether intended or not, the truce line effectively recognized Silla’s claim to political dominance over the entire peninsula.
The Marmot: Nearly simultaneous with the collapse of Koguryo, Tang China moved to establish administrative control over the entire Korean peninsula. Emperor Gao Zong created the ?€œProtectorate-General to Pacify the East?€? within the ruins of P?€™yong?€™yang and established nine additional commanderies to govern Koguryo?€™s former domain.
China’s history can basically be described not only as Manifest Destiny without the guilt, but as Manifest Destiny with oodles of xenophobic pride and arrogance combined with continuing acquisitive zeal. Its 5000-year-old narrative has been a long series of Indian Wars fought with with the advantage of overwhelming numbers on its side - and yet any defensive moves by its neighbors is viewed as aggression, while the inexorable expansion of Chinese borders is viewed as mere barbarian pacification. This is why I’ve always viewed Chinese history as hagiography that disguises naked imperialism behind peaceful-sounding words. The European empires are no more - the Chinese one stands in stark contradiction to soothing Chinese words.
Jing: Ahh the covetous shylock on the attack. Don?€™t mind Zhang Fei, he seems to have a strange China fixation that is unhealthy to say the least.
Actually, Jing’s the one with the unhealthy Western obsession. He needs to stop typing English sentences, step away from his computer, turn off and discard all his electrical and electronic appliances, take off his Western-style clothing and change into something more Chinese. He should stop wearing watches, using telephones, et al. Only then will Jing be authentically Chinese.
You really are an idiot ZhangFei.
Zhang: What is so great about Western Civilization? What we mistake for Western Civilization is actually Middle Eastern civilization. The Abrahamic faith, the greatest fraud perpetrated on humanity, is the cornerstone of modern Western Civilization. Even the U.S. is controlled by some ?€?shitty little nation?€™ in the Middle East. Most Westerners are ruled by a tyrant whose name starts with a ?€?J?€™ and will throw all non-believers into hell, the mother of all gulags. The U.S.?€™s greatest legacy to humanity is its depletion of one-quarter of the Earth?€™s non-renewable resources by its obsession of SUVs. Credit the Chinese for creating the most advanced sustainable civilization for thousands of year in peace with the environment. Just 20 years ago its economy was completely self-sufficient. Now it is the biggest importer of food and the second biggest importer of oil. The industrialization of China, from an environmental point of view, is going to be a disaster for the Earth. Science? Even today, 80% of Americans reject science, and believe in Creation. Science would not have been possible without the invention of paper, the single greatest invention by mankind, attributed to a Chinese by the name of Tsai Lun in 105 A.D. The invention of paper, which was brought to the West by the Arabs, who learnt it from the Chinese.
Anyone care for a non-sequitor smoothie? We got ‘em in every flavor!
“advanced sustainable civilization for thousands of year in peace with the environment”
hee hee ho ho ha ha that’s really funny. China, friend to the environment, he he ho ho ha ha ha. Meanwhile, we’re due for another Yellow Dust full of toxins and man made germs like SARS. Yeah, China, the great environmentally aware country where farm lands are rapidly dissapearing in favor of proletarian ugly soot covered concrete that you can’t even see from 10 meters away because of smog.
Big Dragon. I’m curious how America is controled by Jews. The US is a republic and votes for its representatives to represent them. Out of 536 elected federal officials (not including state and local representatives) only a small handful are Jews. Is there some sedious plot that 99.9% of Americans are not aware of that you are somehow privy to? Somehow these 536 elected federal officials are just a disguise for some dark secret council of Jews that control the US and the world. You and Hittler would have made great friends. You should talk with Michael Moore about his inside information that the Saudi’s control America. How do the Jews and Saudi’s share the power hmmmm? It seems everyone complains that the US controls the world while the Jews and Saudi’s control America. Oh don’t forget the Masons who control America too. Oh and one more- Bill Gates. Wow a lot of people sure do control America.
HSN: That yellow smog eminating from China is intended for our nemesis, Japan; just hold your breath, little dragon, while it passes over you ^_^ Seriously now, hope is on the way. China is converting the use of coal in the cities to natural gas. It is also building the largest water diversion project in the world to divert part of the mighty Yangtze River to make the Yellow River basin greener. You will see major improvements in ten years. But most of the smog problem in Seoul is caused by the use of cheap diesel fuel in that ugly city built inside a valley.
Non-korean: I take it that you are a Zionist given your typical defensive chultzpah outburst. The fact is that the U.S. is controlled by the Zionist through the media, elected politicians, and the Zionist religious institutions. Everyone knows it. Even the Europeans now regard the U.S. and Israel to be a greater threat to world peace than North Korea. Hate to break you this news, but the Chinese are far more popular in the Olympics than the Americans or Israel. One reason why South Korea hates the U.S. so much is because it tries so hard to win the love of superman U.S. by sacrificing its soul yet the U.S. fail to notice and keeps on talking and thinking of Israel.
Marmot: Thanks for your Korean version of history, but if you were to read the last sentence of your link, Korea in the Eye of the Tiger, it only corroborates what I am trying to point out:
“While Koreans may admire Koguryo for its strength and Paekche for its refinement, Silla alone seems to have been truly Korean. It was this territory, these people, and the society and the culture they fashioned for themselves in Unified Silla that became the foundation for the future independent development of society and culture in a unified nation.” Therefore, Korean can easily do without Koguryo, but the Koreans would never have been who they are in their characteristics without the Chinese, who influenced Korea at least 50 times more on the basis of vocabulary alone.
Ah, anti-Semetism. Very classy. Always nice to be reminded of the unflushed toilet that is the Internet.
If I was being anti-semitic, I would have called him a jew. As it stands, I was simply using a literary metaphor to more effectively and colourfuly convey a message. One does that in English yes? I understand it could be construed as anti-semitic, but as I don’t even know if the person in question is Jewish or not it makes it somewhat irrelevant.
Got a problem with that Jewgar of Jewlingrad?
Mark Russell: Please kindly define what is the meaning of the word “anti-Semetism.” (By the way, learn to spell, you Zionist.)
The big dragon. It is interesting that you think I am a Jew simply because I asked you to back up one of the longest running conspiracy theories in History.
Because everyone knows the Jews rule America, it must be true- nice logic and great way to prove your point. I just love to hear conspiracy theories and the logic (or lack of) that backs it up. I must be a Jew huh. I am not a Jew but your flawed asumption shows a lot about you.
Funny - when he mentioned a tyrant with a name beginning with J who rules the Western world and threatens to throw all non-believers into Hell, I thought he meant Jesus.
Strangely enough, so did I.
Asia by Blog - Month in review
Thank you to everyone for the good wishes. Everyone is doing well. Now to keep you going…as part of the Winds of Change team I provide a monthly briefing on Asian goings-on, particularly China and SE Asia. I thought this would give me a good opportun…
Non-korean: I accuse you of being a Zionist, but never of being a Jew. You are the one that doesn?€™t know how to read. Anyone who supports the existence of Israel is a Zionist. Zionism is widely regarded as the greatest threat to world peace because it results in the unjust injury to the rights of the Palestinian people. Even Albert Einstein was against Zionism. I have no hatred of Semitic people like Palestinians, Arabs, and Jews. In fact, I stand shoulder to shoulder with the Jews in saying that Jesus is a fraud. But this is a blog about Koreans. What is interesting is that Kim Il Song?€™s father was a Presbyterian church elders thanks to American missionaries, and Kim borrowed a lot from Christianity. Like American Christians, they believe in the Trinity in North Korea: the Father Kim Il Song, the Son, and Juche. Like Jesus, they are against materialism and capitalism but believe in sharing. They hold endless mass gatherings to commemorate and thank the great works of the Father. Like Hell, the gulags in North Korea are for non-believers. What we mistake for starvation in Korea is merely an extreme form of religious fasting ^_^ North Korea is the nearest thing to a Christian paradise! Anyway, most North Koreans want out of this madness by escaping to China, while South Koreans Christians illegally go to China to try to convert these North Koreans from the cult of Kim to the cult of Jesus and Moon! The mind boggles. Thanks to the Americans directly and indirectly, two-thirds of all Koreans have become mental nut-cases. You being a non-Korean, I think we can agree to that. Peace.
Zhang: Actually 99% of Korea?€™s modern culture - TV, movies, clothing, democracy, journalism, plays, dance, music, et al, comes from the West. Come to think of it, 99% of China?€™s modern culture also comes from the West. This is why China?€™s superiority complex is baffling - they?€™re completely Western in every aspect except for their conviction that they are racially superior. The emperor has no clothes.
The superficial aspects of South Corean culture may be Western or Japanese (just don’t try to get any sef respecting Corean to admit it) in origin but the core of Corean culture is still Confucian. And just to make things clear for our less than well informed right wing friends, Confucianism is Chinese. Granted Western cultural pollution in the form of Marxism has had quite some impact on modern China and that currently China is embracing Western style consumerism, the core of Chinese culture is still Confucian as well. Your lack of insight on this issue reveals you as the Asian fanboy (most likely white) that you are. No yellow solidarity there, you see.
If South Corea could arm twist as much aid from the US as Israel does then maybe things would be different on the penninsula. Imagine $4B of aid, weapons sales galore, and settlements in the DMZ. Oh and be sure to note that ANY money spent on US weapons must be 90% spent back on products from Corea. Think of the boost to the S. Corean weapons industry. But then this is unlikely to happen because once again, yellow solidarity is nonexistent.
Jew-hating sino-supremacists…is there a sociological category for that?
Rhesus: Jew-hating sino-supremacists?€?is there a sociological category for that?
I think the phenomenon of Chinese supremacism predates the founding of sociology as a discipline. Originally devised as the raison d’etre for Chinese empire, it has probably succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its initial founder, Qin Shihuangdi of the Qin empire. The idea was to expand the empire under the pretext of “uniting” all under heaven. China’s empire is several times the size of the Qin empire, and has outlasted just about every other empire out there.
There’s a real irony to the Anti-Semitism that we’re hearing on this list. Thomas Sowell, in Race and Culture, notes that in many Asian countries outside of China, the local Chinese are resented for their economic success in much the same way that Jews are resented for theirs. The cases of Malaysia and Indonesia provide examples of this sort of anti-Chinese prejudice, based largely upon the fact that the Chinese are among the most successful business leaders. The locals concoct conspiracy theories to explain this, but Sowell shows that Chinese success is due primarily to industriousness and thrift.
I hope that Anti-Semitism is not gaining ground among Chinese. It’s certainly growing in Europe these days, and we don’t need any more of it.
Jeffery Hodges
Sadly, I have encountered anti-Semitism here in Korea, among Korea’s small Muslim community (about 70,000, I think). I was interviewing this Korean man at a mosque, not long after 9/11, having a nice, general chat about what it means to be a Muslim in Korea (most converted during those construction projects in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Middle East in the 1970s and 80s)… when suddenly, the man leaned over in his chair, and conspiratorially said to me, “I heard no Jews died in 9/11″.
Hopefully, that knob was a minority, but sad to see it is here at all.
Simon’s E. Asia Overview: Aug 25/04
It’s time to have a look at East Asia and what’s been making the news in Asian blogs over the past month. We cover China (in depth), as well as Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore et. al).
Look guys, there’s a world of difference between being anti-Zionist and anti-Semitism. Please understand the difference between the two before accusing anyone of being one or the other. I bear no ill will toward Semites. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism nor is criticism of the US anti-American. Remember that.
As for the barbaric crimes against Chinese by those island savages, I’ll comment on that on another occasion.
Salaam.
It’s been very often observed, but it’s still fascinating to me how easily certain kinds of (politically) progressive language can suit oppressive purposes. Talk of “solidarity” and “world peace” can occur in the same space as “cultural pollution,” and master-race fantasies. Then there’s the near cliche that one is just anti-Zionist, not anti-Jewish (wink wink). I think Pat Buchanan drove this into the ground about a decade ago.
Ignorance is Strength, of course.
It is really foolish that Chinese government say that “(Northern) Wei State” was Chinese dynasty. China did not exist at that time and the Chinese were colonized by the Mongols (Sian Bei)We all know this is true. Then, how a people (Chinese) can say Koguryo was part of Chinese territory? Probably the British-Africans should say America (USA) was their territory because British Empire colonized themselves (Africans).
Can people (Chinese) being ruled by another (Sian Bei-Mongols of Wei, Sui, Tang) say that another independent state (Koguryo-Korea) was under Chinese influence or was a vasal State???????? Too childish…..are the Chinese!!!
Big Dragon - I disagree with the statement that you made awhile ago that most of Korean culture is Chinese. I for one believe that the world is intricately linked by many diverse cultures and that every culture has had an impact on eachother. What you hold dear as Chinese culture such as the food, clothing, etc. in fact may not be Chinese at all in origin. It may be Korean and the same holds true with Korea, what Koreans hold dear as their own may in fact be Chinese. To assume dominance of culture shows your ethnocentric attitude of Chinese superiority. Cultures and people cross boundaries and in many cases become repackaged and sent back in a different form, which they call their own. Regarding the Koguryo issue, I think it is truly sad that a great nation such as China would try to distort history for its own political purposes. Koguryo history is not just a Korean heritage, but a world heritage.
The impact of Chinese culture
Upon the comment made by the Big Dragon, I think Chinese association with development of current Korean culture was not at all beneficial. And pure Korean culture was very different from China’s and was retained throughout the period and the post-Mongol period. However, the aspect of pure Korean culture was gradually lost after the fall of Koryo Dynasty in the late 13th century A.D. Prior to series of Manchurian emergence, Koryo maintained policy of reacquiring and reconnecting its heritage to lost Koguryo?€™s territories in Northern China. Not surprisingly, policy was re-pursued after the retreat of Mongols. The loss of pure Korean culture could be mostly attributed to the policy sought by Koryo?€™s successive state, Chosun. The series of invasion by Ming-Chinese resurgent aroused Koryo?€™s planned expedition into Laoidong peninsula, which at the final moment was brought down by Manchurian-Korean general (the most influential figure in Koryo at the time) making use of the situation in seeking revolt (in which he ascended the throne). Learning from the history, the very goal for a continuous development of a country is attained through maintaining at least one major hostile faction so as not slack in retaining its own power of right. But, Chosun rather ?€œgave itself up?€? to exist as an independently functioning country about four or five lineages later.
It is said that he sought to establish a cordial relationship with China, but it was against the policy of Koryo. Consequently, contentions with fellow generals stirred him to envisage a plot of establishing his own new faction. After a successive coup, he sent diplomatic convoy to China showing a willingness to end the conflict (China would have been glad to accept the offer since it meant losing one of hostile nations). The result of this event was that Korea was now partially a vassal state to China in self-willed fashion. This turn of event could have been the crucial factor that roused formation of current-day notion that Korean culture is rooted 99% under Chinese cultural influence. I think this is a quite true (maybe not as 99% after the Japanese annexation). It was after this development that Korea began to show pretty much shared trait that of Chinese culture such as Confucianist beliefs and introduction of Chinese system of bureaucratical government. The vast amount of Chinese culture flowing into Korea transformed traditional Korean culture from the roots. The consequence of this change was so immense and such a blow that it is hardly possible for Korean film productions to re-establish and emulate the pre-chosun periods in movies or dramas.
Two or three centuries later, Chosun became so weakened that its economy was at its trough (follows even worse in 1800s) unforeseen in previous Korean history and began to rely extensively on China for maintaining itself upright. The consequence of event was followed by destruction after the series of major Japanese campaigns under Toyotomi Hideyoshi and frequent Manchurian invasions into the peninsula. The wars left the country in ruin. Since then, it sought after for passive militant roles and erected ?€œcurtains?€? to economic, diplomatic ties with other countries except China which left the country even poorer and unsustainable.
I would like to add more that according to my memory about than 60% of carbon monoxide and acidic rain on South Korean sky come from Chinese factories in Northern China, mostly from Tienjin area. The polluted air is transmited by the sandstorm from the Gobi Desert which blows in the direction of the east. Also, according to my knowledge, cars in Korea mostly use well-refined, unleashed gasolines unlike other less developed countries.
Just to correct slightly misinformed statements…
peace
I strongly recommend to have a look at this site.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....611950.htm
There is no such thing as Korea. Koguryo is not only part of Korea.
It is easy ok?, world changes and country changes.
Korea or Choson or Koguryou or (the unified Silla no more)is part of Japan in 1945 because it was written annexation by Japanese. Then independence given by Japan to whole Korea. Somehow Korea is not really independent since there is war between Korea basically the Russian owned North Korea and US owned South Korea. So what is up with the Koguryo history?
It is no more since the Korean is split! same as Russia which is no more USSR. Korea is just a name that you can just claim but nothing is achived since now the Koguryo territory is not part of Korea, and that is finish until if Koreans intend to wage war to claim a territory not even belonging to the ‘South Korea’ or Baekche or Silla people. The already peace Korean-Chinese which will look for the future of the world peace will be part of China to begin the process of unification of countries with the base of peace.
Just base the history on timeline.
to get the whole meaning of peace
http://times.hankooki.com/lpag.....911960.htm
Oh Marmot, first a comment on the maps from the Hong Kong textbook. They do not show China trying to incorporate Koguryo into its territory, but instead show the Chinese commanderie of Lelang which existed from 108 BC to 311 AD, before it was annexed by Koguryo. Even Koreans don’t dispute the existance of Lelang (It’s pronounced Nangnang in Korean). For more information about Lelang, you can check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lelang
Also, going back to the Koguryo question, I think both Chinese and Korean claims to Koguryo are equally valid and equally problematic since the modern concepts of “China” and “Korea” with their current borders did not exist when Koguryo existed.
For most of Koguryo’s existance, both China and Korea were divided up into more than one kingdom. Koguryo had a separate identity from both the core Chinese kingdoms and Silla, the kingdom that eventually unified the Korean penninsula.
In terms of language, Koguryean was different from both Chinese and Sillan, from which modern Korean descended. Also, in terms of material culture, the art and architecture of Koguryo, Paekche, and Silla are clearly different from each other and identifiably so by archaeologists and scholars, with Koguryo heavily influenced by the Northern Chinese Kingdoms, Paekche
by the Southern Chinese, and Silla as the least Sinitic of the three.
All three, however, fell within the Sinitic cultural sphere which extended througout North East Asia to Japan. Now, this is cultural sphere not political. Koguryo used Classical Chinese for its official documents (such as the stele of King Kwangaeto which still stands in modern day China) and Chinese Characters to write Koguryan.
In terms of political separateness, Koguryo saw itself as a separate entity from either the various Chinese Kingdoms as well as Silla and Paekche. In fact, it fought contant wars on both sides with Silla and Paekche, as well as China, until it was destroyed by an alliance between Silla and the Tang Dynasty of China in 668. Now, that doesn’t sound to me like Silla and Koguryo thought of themselves as the same country and the same people. In fact, all of the existing Chinese histories from that time, describe Koguryo and Silla as different in terms of customs, culture, and language.
Koguryo didn’t officially become included as a Korean kindgom until the Samguk Sagi was written in 1145, almost 500 years after it disappeared off the face of the map and couldn’t write its own history.
I think Koguryo can be both Korean and Chinese because it really isn’t really exclusive to either one. It’s like Burgundy in Europe, which used to be an independent entity, but now is fully within the borders of France and Germany. Both countries equally claim Burgundy as part of their history and rightfully so. It isn’t an either or question.
The Chinese people don’t know jack shit about this. The Three Kingdoms is Korean culture and history. The Chinese people are just jealous that they were never able to reach such a glorious state as Koguryo. And they rob Koreans of the history and making it seem to the world like it’s Chinese history. What the hell is that?!
Then independence given by Japan to whole Korea.
That’s an interesting take on what actually happened.
n lmt txs hldm pkr
You may find it interesting to visit some relevant pages about fr nln ply strp pkr
prty pkr sgnp bns
In your free time, visit the sites dedicated to fr prty pkr bns cds gms
n lmt txs hldm
You are invited to check the pages about Txs Hldm Pkr